In this episode, we talk to Dr. Jarrett Neal, the Writing Center Coordinator at Governors State University, about LGBTQ Pride. Dr. Neal shares his experience with generational and differences in perceptions of the LGBTQ community. We discuss Safe Zone training to address and mitigate bias and marginalization. Dr. Neal describes the state and national movements that affect members of the LGBTQ community and advocates for people to be aware of policies. We close with the mission and vision of diversity, equity, and inclusion work and ways to support our the LGBTQ community.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, queer, young, LGBTQ community, live, gay, students, talk, spaces, terms, university, community, teaching, conversations, history, campus, state university, person, great

SPEAKERS

Joi Patterson, Jarrett Neal, Amy Vujaklija

00:00

Radio Jaguar the sound of the Southland.

Welcome to our podcast teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation.

And I am Dr. Joi Patterson chief diversity officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Hello, Dr. Joi. Hello, Dr. Amy, how are you today? I'm doing great because we're in the radio Jaguar booth. Outstanding and we have a fantastic guest today. But we're talking about a very special topic. Did you know that April was pride month? I actually thought it was in June.

Yep. So officially Pride Month is in June. But since we are representing colleges and university Pride Month is actually in April. So this is where we celebrate our LGBTQ community because typically, guess what, the students aren't here in June. So we want to celebrate our students with pride. So therefore, April is Pride Month.

Excellent. So I want to introduce our guest today. Dr. Jarrett Neal is the Writing Center Coordinator at Governor State University and affiliated with the English department, and Gender and Sexuality Studies. His first book, what color is your hoodie, essays on black gay identity was a finalist for the Lambda Literary Award. He holds a BA in English from Northwestern University, an MFA in writing from the School of Art Institute of Chicago, and an EDD in Adult and Higher Education from Aurora University. His fiction, poetry, essays and reviews have appeared in the Chicago Review of Books. The Gay and Lesbian review, Lambda Literary, the right launch, lit break new city and many other periodicals. So welcome to our podcast, Dr. Neal.

Hello. Hello, hello. I can't believe I'm here. Yes, I came up here to the library balcony. I can't remember the last time I was up here. And this booth was not here. So I guess that's that's a note to me to get out and explore the campus community.

Things have changed. And we're happy to have you here at Radio Jaguar. So let's talk a little bit more about you. We want to get to know you better. And first, as Dr. Amy was reading, she said and his first book, you know, so that speaks volume and itself. So we want to know more about you please tell us about your journey and advocating and teaching about the LGBTQ community. Oh, wow. So I know that's a lot.

I sound like a more important important person calling you you are important in many ways. I'm just the guy who tries to help students get their papers written, especially this time of year, I hope your listeners are going to come in and get some help with those papers. We're heading into the end of the semester plug plug for the Writing Center. So we've got appointments. So as we were talking before we all got started and we were coming in the room. I started working here in August 2016 and 2016. I call it my annus horribilis, my the worst year, I got that term from Queen Elizabeth. She was like 2019 92 was her worst year her law. There's a lot of bad things happen to me in 2016 And just to the nation. And in the wake of that I just started here, coming from another university where the campus culture was tight, I guess I was very frustrated and it just wasn't a good place to be. It wasn't a good place to be out. So I came here at a time of just swift change in the cult and the culture, politically and socially and I felt not only to do some kind of service for the university, but it assists to advocate for people like me. I just volunteered to lead the safe zone. training happens once a year is to happen twice a year now happens once a year in the fall as a program for faculty, new faculty and staff, you don't have to be new, but to anybody interested, and learning how to speak to, and have kind of deeper conversations with the core community here on campus, be it students that you're teaching, or that you're seeing in other parts of the university. So I took that on and at the time, Illinois was kind of I, we were like an island of blue and a sea of red. We'll talk about that later. And I just, I was grateful for that. And I thought, well, I want to take advantage of this, to reach out to the faculty and staff to have some spaces where we could have some important discussions and some visibility, and hopefully that would trickle down to the student population as well.

You're talking about spaces. And Dr. Joy and I have had a lot of discussions about authentic self. But we all know, it's still possible to check parts of ourselves at the door when we come to work when we go to school. What does it mean to be our authentic selves? But more importantly, what does it mean to be our authentic total selves?

Oh, boy, that's a high level question.

Yeah, what does it look like in different spaces.

I am a type of person, I can only speak from my own experience. I don't, I don't compartmentalize my life. I know there are some people out there who are very good at that. But I feel like whenever I enter a space, whenever I'm in a classroom, and I learned this in the early years when I was teaching, and I was teaching evening classes at the time, and it was not uncommon for me to be younger than my students. And I faced some challenges, some intimidation, but I told them, You know, I bring my blackness with me wherever I go, this is unmistakable. You can't hide this. And I firmly believe in being who you are. I think some people in our current society take the idea just a little too far. I think that there are radical forms of individualism that are threatening to undermine the country. But that's a whole other conversation. But one of the things I take strength from and I marveled at is how younger people truly do walk the walk and talk the talk and they hold other people as older folks accountable to because they have been inculcated to be who you are to not hide your light under a bushel or to change who you are to make other people feel comfortable. I'm not saying that people should should just go into a space and just completely lob bombs into the room verbal bombs into the room or anything like that. I find it hard to go through life and not be your true self. And I know that coming from a culture where for so long, we had to kind of bifurcate our identity and be one person we were on the job and another completely person when we were not. There was acting professional and that but but to just make up a whole fictive life. I'm watching a TV show now fellow travelers that deals with that. The Lavender Scare and the 1950s. And how queer people had to be so very careful, even in how they sat, the inflection of the voice, the clothes that they wore, for fear of losing their jobs. And I'm so great thankful that we don't live in that era anymore. I hope we never return to that era. But I believe I kind of take a long way around the barn with questions. If you're if you believe in who you are, and if you are a person who believes in intersectionality as I do, we represent many different people. I'm a man, I'm African American. I'm gay. I'm a Midwesterner.

You're an author, I'm

an author. On good on good days when I sit down and write I'm a bookworm. I'm proud bookworm. I bring all of that with me. And I think you're not doing yourself or anybody any favors when you can't. You can't express who you are and who you really are.

That actually comes into a book that I'm reading right now, the ways of integrity. And when we do part from our true self, it can really manifest in physical pain and illness. And so I really appreciate what you're saying about that. That true self and it's hard to compartmentalize and we are so many parts and holes. have different aspects of ourselves. And

I think I mean, that just reflects who we are as the United States is a pluralistic country, we used to say decades ago that we're a melting pot. Not really an accurate, accurate metaphor. It's kind of like a tossed salad. So I think that's one of the great things about being it being an American is that you, you were many different things. And so I take great pride in that.

Very good. So I want to throw some numbers at you and get your reaction to this. Oh, so we did a climate culture survey here. And we learned that 21% of our population identify with the LGBT community. So my first question is, what is your reaction to that percentage? And we talked about this a little before? And then why do you think it is so essential that we see someone who's part of the LGBTQ community? And you know what I mean, when I say I see you, okay,

well, first of all, I'm like, wow, that's a high number. Considering where you think I was before.

When you said you weren't from a tight community. And I throw this number 21%.

I think yeah, I think a lot of that I had no idea. That's a lot of people, i Where are you? Where are all these people? That's a lot. So that's faculty, students, administrators, everybody, that that's a big number. I think it speaks to the fact that more people we've reached a point in American culture, Western culture, where more people feel just comfortable being who they are, we realize that, that there are that sexuality is not binary. There, there are many different sexualities out there, I just read a stat from the Pew Center that there are more and more people identifying as bisexual, but bisexual individuals aren't as out as people who identify as lesbian or gay. And this is partly because bisexual individuals, a lot of them, these, these are people who might be in in opposite sex relationships. So very complicated. I think that's great. I think it speaks a lot, not just to the culture in general, and the greater tolerance and acceptance of LGBTQ individuals in our culture, our history, but also just the university itself. As I said, Before, I came from a university where diversity was only prized on paper, not so much in practice, I've never felt that here at GSU, I've always felt that GSU was a an open, welcoming community to all people. And that I didn't have to worry about losing my job, or, or just attacks on me in any sort of way, whether it be a microaggression, or worse, physical harm. Unfortunately, there are people on campuses in this nation can't say that. So I think that says a lot about the culture of our university that we do so many great things around diversity and inclusiveness. And that some of this stuff, I just can't I feel like it's just powered by young people, because young people have the drive and the energy to do it. So that, that that's, that's wonderful to me.

21% Yeah. And our young and our young people, you know, they push back too. So they don't accept, you know, just the run of the mill things, but I want I want to be vulnerable, just a little bit, I want to be real, and talk a little bit about the history and my history and evolving in this topic. And so I'm glad you're here, because I don't think that I'm the only one here with all the naivety and all of that. But so the history of the LGBTQ community, I mean, it's really broad and diverse, and you can't read enough about it. And then sometimes you read all of this, and you leave it and you say I'm still confused. You know, as a child, my first thought about someone who was gay, because that's all we knew was gay and lesbian. That's all we knew, was that, oh, they were fun and exciting. That was my first thought, you know, my mother had a friend like, When are they coming up because they're so fun and vibrant. And that was that was my thought, yeah, as a child. And then, as a young adult, two of my closest friends were gay. And I only saw them as my friends. I didn't see them as my gay friends. And you know, and so I wonder like, do I see them do I see all of them because I just accepted them as my friends. And then now as a professional and one who works directly in D I, you know, I still see the font And I love that, you know, and I still see just people, you know, but now I see a lot more of the complexities. And I see the needs, I see opportunities. And I see all of these things going on in this community. Talk about because you mentioned this a little bit, talk about the generational differences. And perspective, because I think, and I mean, you can think back to when you were a teenager too. I mean, I just think the views when we talk about how diverse and how broad generationally, it's very broad is very

broad. And I just, as somebody of the Gen X generation, who's married to some to somebody of the baby boomer generation, even between my husband and I, there's, there's a generational difference about how we perceive our community. He came from an environment or from an era where being LGBT Q was something that you just you kept to yourself. And he grew up in Kansas, and came of age during the height of the AIDS epidemic, and was just notions around masculinity and openness was one sexual life and private life that just wasn't that wasn't done, you have to keep that private. And you had to be very careful in your interactions with the career community. There's talking about era not too long ago, where if you went to a gay bar, and the cops passed by, they would take your license plate. And this happened in Kansas, and they would like put your license plate number and all your personal information in the newspaper, you could get thrown in jail for going out to bars and just hanging out with people. The functions of gay bars in the gay community is so complex, because it was not just a place to go have fun and drinks but it was a place to socialize and network and activism, find a job all that. I think that young people, just across the board, there, they have a more openness with sexual identity, I think because there we just have so much more media and social media, social media is so important to them. And they recognize that they're not alone. Young people always tend to side with the underdog in any type of cultural dispute. And they recognize themselves in this community, not just in terms of their sexual preferences, but in their affinity for gay history, gay aesthetics, politics, issues, they like I'm aligned with that. And that's how I was with me is when I was young, I was like, I wasn't ready yet to make the leap to say, oh, I want men and not women. But I just looked at the community and said a lot of what they like a lot of the things they do, that's me, I'm that person. I still think with with the with the older folks in the community. Were more, we are a bit more policy minded, I think, politically minded, and in the sense that we're very sensitive about language and terms for for a lot of for a lot of queer folks over 50 The the application of the term queer, it inspires hostile feelings within where younger people have reclaimed it, and made that word, their own. A red is sort of a catch all term,

right? I just asked someone that I say, Can I use the word queer? Yeah. And he said, It depends on who you're asking and how old the person is. It

really, really does. Older people really have a hard time with that word. And language is a reflection of culture. So culture is always changing the language. It's always changing. I do think, of course, the AIDS epidemic. Don't Ask Don't Tell. The fight for marriage equality, all of that shape, the way older generations of LGBTQ people saw themselves and realizing that to borrow phrase to personal is political. And when people are around you are dying, and the government is doing nothing to stave this off it. It. It In effect, it fills you with something else. It fills you with the drive, to fight for just the basic right to gather in a bar to live with somebody and not in not be thrown out or denied a job or just because of who you date and who you love. I think I'm going back to my husband, he's teaching this right now his university. He's teaching LGBTQ history and the class is packed. He's teaching another version online this summer and the section is so big, they've had to split it into two groups. So he's teaching to he's happy to be making extra money. But

if you're happy I saw that some half Yeah, we're going

to Iceland in May. So that might come in handy next month. But he looks at his class. He's like, you know, it's not just queer students, there are a whole lot of women. He's like, there are football players in my class. And so it's like, young people who may not even be in part of the community, but who are allied with the community. They may have a queer cousin, sister, uncle, and they just want to know more. But I do think with the older folks, there's a sense of respectability politics. My husband is all about respectability politics for queer folks. And we go back and forth about this. And so this goes back to this issue of authenticity that we were talking about, and wanting the public to see that gay men are not just running around partying, doing drugs, and having sex everywhere. There are gay men who are just boring gay men who live in the suburbs and spend their weekends gardening and watching the crown on

television was all the promiscuity, right? Yeah, yes. And back in the day, and you were talking generationally? So I just want to finish this part up. What do you think the difference would be for the 16 year old that you experience? And if you were 16 year old now?

I don't know. I mean, in some ways, I think young people today, they have so much at their disposal, I mean, you can pick up this phone. And I mean, literally the world is coming to you through your phone. So you have this, but they're also being inundated with images all the time. And sometimes I don't think they can discern from the real and the manufactured in a sense. I think sometimes they hear about certain experiences. But they think that's true for everybody, you know, you know, you go on Instagram, or whatever site you go to, it seems like everybody is living just this fantastic, glorious life except you. And I think they just don't think that all of that is curated. I don't know if I would feel good being 16 Right now, I think. I just assigned a paper to my students a case study, and I gave them three topics to choose from voting rights, food deserts, and social media. All but two of them wrote about social media, nobody, sadly, nobody wrote about voting rights. And I wanted to write about voting rights and voter suppression. But they all wrote about social media. And it's, I think it's the power of social media, to open the world to young folks, but to also do harm. And, and to distort what reality is. So it's a double edged sword. I've always told people, I would never want to be younger than 28. I just, I just wouldn't want to be younger than 28 because I couldn't handle I was an introverted kid, I'm an even more introverted middle aged man. But I see the promise in young people. And I see that they are eager for knowledge history, that they want to know about history, not only the history of queer folks, but the history of the culture in general. Anytime I bring up politics in class about the electoral process, and anything, they perk up and listen, even though even the ones who seem like they are interested, they want to know how things work, because I just don't think they're getting that. And I joke, I joke sometimes, and I say, you know, there's more to the internet than Instagram and porn, right? So get in there and look and dig around. And it's okay to ask questions. And it's okay not to know, you know, and it's okay to come and ask people questions. There's no such thing as a stupid question. And I'd rather you ask the question and just get the right information and go out and and potentially harm yourself or others.

I want to come back to the Safe Zone Training that you do for our colleagues, for professionals here at the university. I want to think about marginalization on college campuses. So how might we recognize when one when a person is being marginalized when a group is being marginalized? Do you think it's happening on this college campus? And what can what can people do to be allies? Like what does that look like?

What does ally ship look likes? Ally ship is really just saying, I accept you without judgment. And I'm here to support you in any way that I can. I don't have all the answers. We're in safe zones training. We tell faculty and staff members have these conversations with students when they approach you but just let them know that you can't guarantee confidentiality because As if, if anybody is reporting harm or anything like that, or or threats, we've, we've got to report that. But so many people, I think young people, they want to talk to somebody. And even though they've got all this communication at their disposal, they really just don't have anybody to talk to about the big things about really private important things. I think the best thing you could do for anybody is just to listen to them, and just to listen to them and offer a sympathetic ear. I don't know, as I said, we we get in our silos and especially this time of year, where there's just the rush to get to the end of the school year and graduation, it's very easy to get into your own little world and forget about what's going on. The best thing to do is just to let people know that you're there for them, I, I feel like the students who want you will seek you out, you can't really force people because I think if you try to force people, you do more harm than good. And you have to let people come in their own time. As I said, GSU was to me has always been an open an open space to be I've never felt, I've never felt kind of constrained or under pressure as I have at other campuses. That just doesn't seem to happen here, which is a good thing. And I think the fact that we are such a diverse community, linked to a large metropolitan area, where there is a strong thriving queer community, and not just a queer community, but every community Chicago is one of the best cities in the world. Knowing that everybody is different, and everybody should be accepted. I feel like college campuses. Higher education is under assault from everybody right now in terms of curriculum. I've heard of D I program shuttering and other institutions. And they're fraught spaces. And Sad thing is there are people actually in the system working to undermine the system, particularly when it comes to anything that deals with diversity, anything to do with the liberal arts. It's a shocking, it's a shocking time. And I feel like so much of its reactionary, but greater, greater than is the need for visibility and the need to find defy community, wherever you're going to find it. And I and I hope we're not at a place where in the university where different groups of people kind of shut themselves off so that the black student association doesn't want to do anything to do with the Gay Straight Alliance. And they don't want to do anything with the Latin American Student Association or anything like that. I think all these groups should be working in partnership, because they're all working toward a greater good, right?

Well, that's fantastic. And whenever we're talking about college campuses, of course, our experience here is in Illinois, and Governor State University in the south suburbs of Chicago, where dei programs are not being shuttered. But that does. Let me segue into another question. Why does it matter what state you live in? If you identify as LGBTQ? Well, I

will say this. queer folks are everywhere. It always makes me laugh when I hear somebody say I've never met a gay person. I've met a trans person. Yes, you Yes, you have. You just didn't know it, because you were looking for a stereotype. And I think that's great. It sometimes shocks people, when they see you, and they learn that you're a member of the queer community, and they're like, but you don't look gay, but you don't act like a lesbian. You know, that type of thing. I'm not to get too into politics, but Illinois is a blue state. It is a deep blue state, which means it's a Democratic stronghold. And in the last midterm election, Democrats won big so we were blue before we're even bluer now. And the governor is, has been pressing for a lot of great things. There's now like an anti there's like a ban on book banning, which is great for bookworm writer like me. That's wonderful. I don't think any books should ever be censored. But it matters in the sense, I think that we're seeing a lot of backlash, and we're seeing a lot of reversals of policies and things that are just unprecedented right now. And it for me, it makes me feel ill at ease. Um, when Roe v. Wade was overturned two years ago, that sent shockwaves throughout the world and people like me, whose marriage was only codified just a few years earlier. And SCOTUS kind of made this kind of side side side where it's not what am I trying to say? Kind of kind of signals that that may not be the first thing that they're looking into revisiting some of these other cases. I think they're There's a contingent of individuals out there who are just scared of life in the 21st century. And they there are lots of class resentments. And there are a lot of resentments of all sorts. I think there's a lot of reaction to what's been termed woke ism, I think that that term has been taken and been turned into a pejorative when it was never meant to be that way. And the more one side gets radical and amped up, the more the other side wants to get radical and amped up. And then there are people who were like, can we just find common? Can we just have some common ground? I think it for those young people who, who live in Illinois, who live in a blue state, there are just things we can do here. And I feel like not to say that you can't do it. I mean, in every blue state, there are pockets of red. In every red states, there are pockets of blue. There are many people who are living in red states and gay and thriving. I have friends who moved to Florida. In late 2018, there were a gay couple who are living out in Batavia, and not Batavia, Bartlett, and I think the thing that did it for them was just the weather because it was right after that polar vortex. And I think they said I have had it. I want to live somewhere where it's summer all year round. So they moved down to Florida and we look what's happening in Florida. And I was down to Florida very briefly for like a one day visit. And I was in Wilton Manors in Fort Lauderdale, and people are living a life that they're like, you know, the state is doing what it's doing. It's crazy. We are working to change some of this, we're doing what we can, but you can't be an activist, every single moment of your life, you got to take a break and just live you got to go to the grocery store. You got to mow your lawn, you got to take time and watch your favorite TV show. But for my

thing being there helps the evolution to I mean, both Amy and I we live in Indiana don't judge us. Yeah. But you know, and I think it's important that we are there. Yeah, you know,

everybody, because uh, you like if everybody leaves, then what's going to happen, right? I'm originally from Missouri, ever Kansas City and I moved, I moved here in 1999. And I joke every time I go back home to visit family, so Okay, when I left the state, it was a nice purple state had just voted for Clinton, what happened in Missouri. And not just from a policy perspective, but from a cultural perspective. I mean, I go home to Kansas City, and I feel fine. I don't, I don't feel I don't feel that I'm in danger or anything like that. I'm in a great city, Kansas City is great, I highly recommend it go to Kansas City on the first Friday of the month, because they have this great outdoor First Friday event in downtown Kansas City on the first Friday of every month. Not to mention they have the chiefs. So I think it's, I want so much for young people to learn about this. And to get engaged. I want them to understand that it does kind of matter what state you live in, in terms of policies related to, to all sorts of personal issues. Because we're in a fraught time right now. Hopefully, things are going to change. And we won't feel this kind of instability. I feel instability. I don't know I look other people. I'm like, how do you not feel? Aren't you angry? Aren't you scared? And they don't seem to be. So I never take my liberties for granted. I've been voting in every election since I was 18 years old. I always vote yes, even in the primaries, you've got to vote, your vote does matter. So I just I expressed that to everybody. I'm very I'm very big on voting. So you got to do it. So now

I understand very well, your frustration that No one chose to write about policy in your class. But now, maybe they'll listen to this and say, Well, maybe maybe learning more about policy is important.

It's important. I think some people get intimidated. I know that young people, young people I was young at Believe it or not, I was young wants to. And there are some times I feel like because I'm down in student success Commons and because of who we are, and there's six different departments located in that one area. And there's a lot of students who are just in this open area, and I hear them because my office is right next door, and they're having all different conversations. I don't know how many conversations I've had to hear about, who do you think is better Spider Man or Batman MCU or, but that's just what young people do. We can tell them something 5000 times and it goes in one ear and out the other if their friends tell it to them, it sticks and they got it. So College is a great thing. We're at a point and people were saying college is not for everybody. Yes, I know college is not for everybody. But one of the great He thinks about coming to college is it gives a puts you in the spaces where you can have these type of conversations where you can have these type of debates and you can learn about your past. And you can listen to friends who live in other places, and people who and your friends who come from other experiences and you can hear what they've gone through. And you can see see other other things I always encourage people get into the city, you all take some time and go be safe, go into the city and had Sokar go has so much to offer. But that's what college is supposed to be. It's supposed to be a time in life where you're supposed to just have fun and figure things out and have these flaming debates that that flame hot, and then they go cold and everything. But this is how you learn about the world. And hopefully that that translates into action in terms of your own politics, but the politics of the state in the nation.

Dr. Joy, you are the chief diversity officer at Governor State University. And sometimes I think these podcasts are an extension of your office. Yes. I mean, we talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. And I'd like for you to offer something or to make a comment about D I work that is under attack across the nation in how you see it rippling out in like conversations like we're having today.

I'm, I'm always prepare for the DEI debate. I've even come up with a new name, title if I need to come up with a new name, title and all of that, because it really doesn't matter what you call it. Right? It's really the mission and living your mission. You know, so I said, I'll be the chief mission and vision director, you know, because if that's our mission, and we're living behind that, then you and I, we will continue to have those conversations about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and access. And Dr. Amy and I, we never set out to talk about equity related issues. It was all educator and leadership. And undoubtedly, and every conversation, it ended up being an issue of equity. And so that is just what is. And so we had to take hold of that. So it became something that who we are not just what we talk about, and what we do so became what we do on a daily basis. So regardless of the attacks, I think is your mission, your purpose, and you can get around all the jargon, you can get around the name and the titles of all of that. But I do have one final question because Dr. Amy asked you about living in a particular state. And here we are Gulf State University. We also do First Fridays, it's pretty fun. But for our students and our employees, what should we be doing? Or if we should be doing anything different to support our LGBTQ community? Well,

like you said, I too, did not know that college campuses we're doing pride in April because of course, yeah, in June

and now we know so we'll be reading

and also in October is LGBTQ history month. So there's a lot of queer celebrations. We love our celebrations right

and you'll be doing training and I'll be doing that is what's completely feel

that was great. Me and Eddie gumbo a shout out to Eddie again bore because he's my partner. We do it every October faculty staff come there's a there's a separate training for the students but we feel that students can be able to talk more if if the goal folks like us aren't in the room and vice versa. Um, I like I said, I am kind of a head down cerebral individual. If you see me walking around campus, and I'm muttering to myself or something, I apologize. I'm just I'm always thinking about something because that's the way my mind works. I don't know that I've seen a whole lot of large scale celebrations of PRI. I've seen some events here and there. What was that in fall 2022. I did an event on just like the history of queer literature. Unfortunately, it was not a very well attended.

Next time I'll get involved.

Oh, they care about literature, that literary heritage. I'm always trying to get people to read. But I think that would be really cool. I think the people to ask are the young people because they're the ones who would take advantage of it more if would it be good to have an LGBTQ Film Festival? I think that would be great to have talks from people members of the community met even if we could get some group together and like do a trip up to Boystown, go to the center on Hofstede go to those spaces, or maybe even organizing a trip up to the Pride festival last weekend in June, that would that would be great, too.

So thank you, thank you for all of those ideas. So there's lots to incorporate. And so you know, we like to do those inclusive things and do those fun things as well. So thank you very much for being here. I learned a lot.

I did too. And I know our listeners did. And this episode is being broadcast live on radio jag wire, and a recorded episode will be released in June during pride month. So I look forward to that. And I appreciate learning so much from you, Dr. Neal, Jarrett, our friend and colleague.

Thanks a lot. Visit the Writing Center govt.my Debussy online.com

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading was Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. Visit our website at gov as t got eating you slash teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

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