Artwork for podcast Qiological Podcast
061 The Medicine of Motion • Renee Klorman
Episode 613rd December 2018 • Qiological Podcast • Michael Max
00:00:00 01:01:08

Shownotes

We tend to think of movement in mechanical terms. How this muscle contracts, how blood perfuses a certain kind of tissue or how tendons and bones allow for particular kinds of movement.

But beyond this we we can see that movement is a kind of vocabulary of the body. It has nuance or not. It has a range of expression or not. And just like micro-nutrients are vital to our metabolism, so to micro movements are vital to our physical wellbeing and nervous system.

Today’s conversation is not about taichi or qi gong, but about another kind of “kung fu” another kind of attentive focus on movement and movement practices that can help us to heal ourselves and our patients.

Listen in to this conversation on how a modern perspective on movement goes hand in glove with our traditional medicine.

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Transcripts

Renee Klorman:

When I'm working with people that I really want to change in

Renee Klorman:

their minds is the shape of their habits.

Renee Klorman:

So what is it that they're doing now that if they keep doing and

Renee Klorman:

there's no intervention, what health concerns is it going to lead?

Renee Klorman:

10 years from now.

Renee Klorman:

And that very much works with the channel health.

Michael Max:

I'm Michael max.

Michael Max:

And this is qiological the podcast that allows acupuncturist and east

Michael Max:

Asian medical practitioners to listen to the diverse voices of.

Michael Max:

I am constantly amazed at how a few words can work.

Michael Max:

Like a needle can dramatically open a person up or close them down.

Michael Max:

A couple of years ago, I heard an interview with a guy named Chris Voss

Michael Max:

and it led me to buying his book.

Michael Max:

Never split the difference.

Michael Max:

It's a book on negotiate.

Michael Max:

And Chris knows a thing or two about this as he's an ex FBI hostage negotiator.

Michael Max:

If your first thought about FBI negotiators is that they're

Michael Max:

hard ball, tough and aggressive.

Michael Max:

You'd be completely wrong.

Michael Max:

They are focused, empathetic and brilliant communicators who draw

Michael Max:

more on the psychological perspective of Carl Rogers than Vinnie.

Michael Max:

The enforcer, this book, and the skills in it are obviously necessary

Michael Max:

to anyone running a business.

Michael Max:

But even if you don't work for yourself, much of the give and take in

Michael Max:

human life is a kind of negotiation.

Michael Max:

And it's not about being aggressive or manipulate.

Michael Max:

It's about finding out what the other side needs, so you can help

Michael Max:

them to get it not so different.

Michael Max:

Really from the work we do in clinic with her patients.

Michael Max:

Recently, I caught a short video of Chris talking about how to

Michael Max:

make a good first impression.

Michael Max:

Really?

Michael Max:

This is something that anyone working with others would do well to cultivate.

Michael Max:

It's an important skill that will help us in our practices.

Michael Max:

Even if we're not dealing with kidnappers or bankrupt.

Michael Max:

Chris says you have seven seconds to make a good impression.

Michael Max:

What do you need to do in that seven seconds?

Michael Max:

You need to provide an answer to the questions.

Michael Max:

Do you see what I see?

Michael Max:

And do you understand what I'm facing before we jump to any conclusions,

Michael Max:

promises, tactics, or story of our own?

Michael Max:

Can you let the person in front of, you know, that you understand what they face?

Michael Max:

What they fear and what they hope for.

Michael Max:

How often do you skip this step?

Michael Max:

I do it all the time, but I've noticed that things usually go

Michael Max:

better when I don't skip it.

Michael Max:

This is a simple practice seeking first to let the person you'd like to help, not

Michael Max:

just know, but feel that you understand what they're up against to be able to

Michael Max:

suss out the meaning it has for them.

Michael Max:

You don't have to agree with it.

Michael Max:

Just recognize is true.

Michael Max:

You could think of this as a airports or business skill,

Michael Max:

but really it's a human skill.

Michael Max:

One that leans on a curious intent of heart and a head sharp enough

Michael Max:

to realize that without a feeling of trust, not much happens.

Michael Max:

Do you see what I see?

Michael Max:

Do you understand what I'm facing?

Michael Max:

Next time someone asks you about acupuncture rather than

Michael Max:

launching into your, how it works or how it helps elevator speech.

Michael Max:

See if you can use the first moments of an encounter to answer one of

Michael Max:

those questions for the person you're talking to see what happens.

Renee Klorman:

I've

Michael Max:

got Renee Klarman with me today.

Michael Max:

Renee and I are sitting down for a little conversation about something

Michael Max:

near and dear to the heart of all us Chinese medicine practitioner.

Michael Max:

That would be cultivation practices.

Michael Max:

Now, usually when we think about movement and cultivation practices,

Michael Max:

we're thinking of Tigie and Xi, gong and Bagua, and, you know, I mean,

Michael Max:

all this stuff that we do that.

Michael Max:

Down from the tradition of Chinese medicine, Renee is an acupuncturist and

Michael Max:

she also has gone deeply, deeply into movement, but it comes from a slightly

Michael Max:

different stream than our Chinese medicine stream of cultivating of movements.

Michael Max:

And that's what we're here to talk about today.

Michael Max:

Renee, welcome to qiological.

Michael Max:

Thank you so much.

Michael Max:

You know, I can't even remember how we connected up, but, but somehow we did.

Michael Max:

I was

Renee Klorman:

kicking out about your podcast.

Renee Klorman:

What do you like about the pocket?

Renee Klorman:

Well, as I've said, I love that you pay so much attention to sound.

Renee Klorman:

I really appreciate the way you ask questions and approach each guest.

Renee Klorman:

I like that you have, you know, decades of experience and can really

Renee Klorman:

bring that into each interview.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah, you're just adding something really wonderful to our profession.

Michael Max:

Well, I'm glad you like it.

Michael Max:

As far as decades of experience goes, I find often decades of experience is

Michael Max:

not helpful because it, it keeps me limited to the stuff that I already know.

Michael Max:

Often I'll be thinking, yeah, I know how to handle that.

Michael Max:

Or yeah, I have a handle on this or I know that, and the truth is, is I don't.

Michael Max:

So one of the reasons I love doing this podcast is it's this wonderful

Michael Max:

opportunity to sit down with people like you learn something new.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

Well, I'm certainly ready to shake things up.

Renee Klorman:

I mean, I'm only six years in to my work, so I know that I

Renee Klorman:

have a newbie perspective still.

Renee Klorman:

All right.

Michael Max:

We're going to take a tangent.

Michael Max:

You just touched on something that I hear people say this all the time.

Michael Max:

It's like, oh, I'm a newbie.

Michael Max:

I'm just a second year student.

Michael Max:

I've only been practicing five years, six years, 12 years, whatever, you

Michael Max:

know, we have this incredible veneration of I'm going to use air quotes here,

Michael Max:

the masters, but the truth is very few of us are going to be masters.

Michael Max:

I think we got a good solid shot at being.

Michael Max:

Really competent, creative, helpful journey, women and journeymen.

Michael Max:

We can be in that journey and we can be deep in our craft and never

Michael Max:

make it to master and do really good work for an entire lifetime.

Michael Max:

I don't know.

Michael Max:

I've just kind of got this thing these days about not putting

Michael Max:

ourselves down because we don't have 20 years of experience or 30

Michael Max:

years, or we can recite the Ling Shu backwards and forwards in Chinese.

Renee Klorman:

When you find something you're really passionate about and

Renee Klorman:

you do it for a long time, I guess that's why I say I'm only a newbie

Renee Klorman:

because I love my work so much.

Renee Klorman:

And six years feels like nothing.

Renee Klorman:

And I know that each time I circle back to the same idea, I'm going

Renee Klorman:

to go a little deeper, you know?

Renee Klorman:

So in 15 years from now, come back to the same conversation

Renee Klorman:

about this work I'm doing now.

Renee Klorman:

Who knows, you know, how many layers I'll have reveal?

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

It's so true.

Michael Max:

I mean, we really do.

Michael Max:

We circle down, we circle in, sometimes it feels like we get dizzy

Michael Max:

because, oh God, great this again.

Michael Max:

But you know, if we're coming at it a little deeper, a little more

Michael Max:

understanding, a slightly different perspective, then it's new again.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

And just the idea of going slow and just the idea of going slow.

Michael Max:

Wow.

Michael Max:

In our internet connected world, that's grown at, you know, a hundred megabits.

Michael Max:

How luscious is it to go slow and appreciate that tempo

Michael Max:

and rhythm of the journey.

Michael Max:

So you may be a newbie, but you somehow cotton to this other

Michael Max:

movement practice, which is what we're going to get into today.

Michael Max:

I'm curious to know.

Michael Max:

What drew you to it?

Michael Max:

What got you into this stuff?

Michael Max:

Tell us a bit about it.

Renee Klorman:

I'm going to answer that question, but I'd really like

Renee Klorman:

to know how you found out about Katy Bowman and what excited you

Renee Klorman:

that I was doing this work, right.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

Uh, turning the microphone around on the host, huh?

Michael Max:

Okay, fine.

Michael Max:

I can not remember how I came across Katie.

Michael Max:

I listened to podcasts.

Michael Max:

I read books.

Michael Max:

I listen to what other people have to say.

Michael Max:

I'm constantly open to different influences.

Michael Max:

I might've heard her on a podcast somewhere, but honestly, I can't

Michael Max:

remember, but I can tell you this.

Michael Max:

She sounded flipping brilliant in the way that she talks about

Michael Max:

movement as nutrition, in a sense it's, it's a different kind

Michael Max:

of nutrition for physicality.

Michael Max:

It really got my attention.

Michael Max:

So I got a couple of her books.

Michael Max:

I got the book about being barefoot, getting into like barefoot type shoes.

Michael Max:

And then there's a book on.

Michael Max:

I hate the title, but it's something like, you know, has to do with

Michael Max:

aging, dynamic aging, dynamic aging, uh, Gorod publishers and their

Michael Max:

titles sometimes drives me crazy.

Michael Max:

But the content in that book is fantastic, especially for people

Michael Max:

like me actually, who are aging, and they're looking to stay vital.

Michael Max:

They're looking to stay strong, balanced all this stuff, and the way she goes

Michael Max:

about it, I think is just delicious.

Michael Max:

And so when I found out that you do this.

Michael Max:

That's when you got the invitation to come to qiological.

Michael Max:

So tell us about it.

Renee Klorman:

Nutritious movement is a whole body program, essentially that

Renee Klorman:

uses exercises and alignment markers to help people understand where their

Renee Klorman:

sedentary parts are and really to identify movement patterns that keep people in

Renee Klorman:

pain or inhibit their physical activity.

Renee Klorman:

And or are affecting physiological health in my work as a Chinese medicine

Renee Klorman:

practitioner, I'm always considering the physical, emotional, and spiritual

Renee Klorman:

shape the person is when they come to see me, you know, as practitioners from

Renee Klorman:

a five element perspective, we know that people are all of those things

Renee Klorman:

all of the time, but develop patterns.

Renee Klorman:

Carved these deeper grooves and create imbalances that become pathological.

Renee Klorman:

Um, movement is no exception.

Renee Klorman:

And biomechanics Katy Bowman has spent 20 years refining and studying human movement

Renee Klorman:

to develop exercises that are accessible, but also really complex because when

Renee Klorman:

you break them down into alignment points and she has 25 that she takes.

Renee Klorman:

Her teachers it's about, you know, how to move better and

Renee Klorman:

how to move more of yourself.

Renee Klorman:

And so far, this material, I've spent four years integrating this

Renee Klorman:

material into my clinical work, and it's significantly changed how I

Renee Klorman:

see the human body and human health.

Renee Klorman:

And it's so complimentary to our work is Chinese medicine practices.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

I want to get into some of these movements.

Michael Max:

We're going to do that in a little bit, but you just said something

Michael Max:

about it's really changed how you see things and how you work with people.

Michael Max:

How has it changed you?

Renee Klorman:

When I was a student, you want to be able to get everything at once.

Renee Klorman:

You want to be able to see the way that, you know, Hong Kong sees

Renee Klorman:

people, they like walk in the room and he's already got them pegged.

Renee Klorman:

And that's really hard.

Renee Klorman:

This work has refined my observation skills.

Renee Klorman:

It's refined my palpation skills.

Renee Klorman:

It has changed the way I ask questions.

Renee Klorman:

And each of those pieces combined over the years, I've just gotten a lot

Renee Klorman:

better at pinpointing what's going on or quickly seeing a problem and knowing

Renee Klorman:

which path to take might help patients skills have dramatically improved.

Renee Klorman:

From understanding how the body is out of alignment, how it's twisted and being able

Renee Klorman:

to use to analyze like what's going on with certain patterns and then know how to

Renee Klorman:

ask questions based on what I'm feeling.

Michael Max:

Wow.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

So you kind of have one of those Chinese medicine superpowers that we hear about.

Michael Max:

It's funny, we're circling around or this, you know, we hear about the

Michael Max:

masters there's long, long, right?

Michael Max:

My teacher in Taiwan, Dr.

Michael Max:

John, you know, people would walk in, you'd be like, oh yeah, right.

Michael Max:

You know, why, how could he do that?

Michael Max:

Well, he was 93 years old.

Michael Max:

He'd been doing it forever.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

Six years in are developing some skills that allow you to palpate.

Michael Max:

It allow you to look, have somehow changed your sensorium

Michael Max:

and the way that you observe that you're getting new information.

Michael Max:

Am I hearing

Renee Klorman:

that correctly?

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

I like that.

Renee Klorman:

The sensorium.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

It's it's through using this really crude tool.

Renee Klorman:

I mean, guash OD is so it's so crude.

Renee Klorman:

It's so effective for

Michael Max:

reading.

Michael Max:

I know you could use like a jelly jar for the damn stuff

Renee Klorman:

I use.

Renee Klorman:

I use a copper tool.

Renee Klorman:

The part that started the whole journey is I gave a talk to a runners

Renee Klorman:

club and I offered a free country.

Renee Klorman:

And there were probably 15 people in the room.

Renee Klorman:

I think every one of them book the free consult and then almost every one

Renee Klorman:

of them came to see me as a patient.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

That's, that's crazy.

Michael Max:

There's a lot of new practitioners that would love to be able to

Michael Max:

pull that off and fail at it.

Michael Max:

Miserably.

Michael Max:

What is it that you did that got them to go?

Michael Max:

I'm coming in?

Michael Max:

Oh, in fact, I'm not just coming in and I'm signing up for some actual true.

Michael Max:

I

Renee Klorman:

have no idea.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

I really have no idea.

Renee Klorman:

I think I was just excited.

Renee Klorman:

I was excited to work with a group of people and the benefit of it, because

Renee Klorman:

this was about three, I think three to four years ago, they came in so

Renee Klorman:

quickly within a three month period.

Renee Klorman:

They all came in to see me.

Renee Klorman:

And because they're runners, I thought, well, I'll work on their feet.

Renee Klorman:

I would wash their feet.

Renee Klorman:

And then from that, I was doing the Katy Bowman work.

Renee Klorman:

And I could, I didn't quite know how to assess what was going on.

Renee Klorman:

So I just asked them questions.

Renee Klorman:

You know, I feel that you have more tissue build up on the lateral

Renee Klorman:

foot, you know, are you doing this?

Renee Klorman:

And seeing so many of them and because they were all training

Renee Klorman:

together, I could really get an idea of how they were moving.

Renee Klorman:

And then I just started guash on everybody's feet and then it became more

Renee Klorman:

like reading a pulse where I can now.

Renee Klorman:

Are they hiking their hip out because I can feel the tissues,

Renee Klorman:

you know, on that lateral edge.

Renee Klorman:

But it goes down into the fourth and fifth toe, or are they always pelvic

Renee Klorman:

thrusting where they're leaning forward because maybe they're wearing heels

Renee Klorman:

or maybe they've done it for so long.

Renee Klorman:

They don't even realize they lean against the counter all the time.

Renee Klorman:

And all the tissue has really built up in the toe section.

Renee Klorman:

You know, the calves are really tight on one side, but not so

Renee Klorman:

much on the other, you know, are you left-handed or right-handed.

Renee Klorman:

After hundreds of questions, I just got a lot better at it.

Renee Klorman:

So now I can use it for all kinds of.

Michael Max:

Yeah, of course you see enough cases and things come

Michael Max:

together, you are using to treat them.

Michael Max:

And then what you discovered is it was diagnostic as well as

Michael Max:

therapeutic and it was giving you lots of information, correct?

Michael Max:

Oh, wow.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

It's really amazing what you can feel through a gloss shot.

Michael Max:

I mean, you can put your hands on, you know, impress and palpate and

Michael Max:

all that stuff, but somehow running a tool over the tissue, the way that

Michael Max:

it vibrates things or doesn't vibrate things, it's like a stethoscope, except

Michael Max:

it's for feeling more than for sound.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

And it does have that vibrating feel to it because I can feel with

Renee Klorman:

my hand or I can use a different instrument than it's not the same.

Renee Klorman:

And I definitely use my hands then to think more in general.

Renee Klorman:

What is the channel saying, but with the alignment, the wash on, and sometimes

Renee Klorman:

cupping, cause I go wash all over, I'll go wash out the ribs and then I can

Renee Klorman:

tell how they're twisting their body or not breathing at all, or possibly what

Renee Klorman:

vertebra are getting really sticky.

Renee Klorman:

And that could be because of a hyper kyphosis, which all of us

Renee Klorman:

have some degree of hypertension.

Renee Klorman:

We'll just hide it really well.

Renee Klorman:

I

Michael Max:

mean, I love hearing about how you, you take one

Michael Max:

technique that you've been learning.

Michael Max:

You've been learning this stuff from Katie Bowman.

Michael Max:

You put it together with your Chinese medicine.

Michael Max:

You start doing the Crawshaw.

Michael Max:

It's amazing how these pieces can fit together.

Michael Max:

And I love the theoretical stuff, but I also know that I can really like

Michael Max:

run myself into a place of, uh, deep thinking without much clinical knowing,

Michael Max:

walk us through a case, walk us through somebody coming into your office.

Michael Max:

And how you work with them.

Michael Max:

I mean, like from the moment they walk in the door, you're probably looking

Michael Max:

at how they move, take us to her case.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Take us through a case that demonstrates this

Renee Klorman:

stuff.

Renee Klorman:

So I have a long hallway that goes back to my, from the waiting room,

Renee Klorman:

back to my clinic space and, you know, I'll walk out and then I'll

Renee Klorman:

have them walk in front of me and just watch them walk down the hallway.

Renee Klorman:

And so then I can see.

Renee Klorman:

You know, are they leaning to one side?

Renee Klorman:

Are they, is one foot walking out more?

Renee Klorman:

It's not in its tracks.

Renee Klorman:

So it's laterally rotated.

Renee Klorman:

And then they come into the space and they sit down in the chair.

Renee Klorman:

And so then I'm looking at, you know, how they're sitting, are they, are they

Renee Klorman:

slouching immediately in the chair?

Renee Klorman:

Are they folding their legs?

Renee Klorman:

Are they talking their pelvis?

Renee Klorman:

And then as I ask them questions, so if someone comes in to

Renee Klorman:

see me for neck pain, for.

Renee Klorman:

I might throw a few master dong needles in, because I, I used that

Renee Klorman:

along with, um, longs, you use point combinations, mostly as acupuncture.

Renee Klorman:

And then I asked him to stand up and we talked for a while.

Renee Klorman:

So I'm listening and I'm watching the move.

Renee Klorman:

I'm listening to how they talk about their pain.

Renee Klorman:

Is their pain,

Michael Max:

listening to how they talk about their pain.

Michael Max:

What are you listening for?

Renee Klorman:

A lot of people who I see who are over 50.

Renee Klorman:

They associate their deterioration, their physical deterioration with age.

Renee Klorman:

And Katie Bowman really emphasizes that because we aren't

Renee Klorman:

moving enough of ourselves.

Renee Klorman:

That's why we deteriorate.

Renee Klorman:

Not because we're getting older in years.

Renee Klorman:

I try to detangle the two when I'm talking to somebody, but first I want to hear

Renee Klorman:

how they think about their bodies to.

Renee Klorman:

So that listening skill has really shifted.

Renee Klorman:

And I, I do my best to reframe if somebody is saying, oh, I I'm just getting old.

Renee Klorman:

My knees hurt my back hurts.

Renee Klorman:

I try to reframe it for them by asking them other questions.

Renee Klorman:

Like, what are the things that you would like to do that you feel that

Renee Klorman:

your body is not allowing you to do?

Renee Klorman:

And when do you remember?

Renee Klorman:

Because often people have this idea of their bodies being of

Renee Klorman:

a certain capability and then.

Renee Klorman:

20 years ago, we talk about those aspects and then, you know, if their neck pain

Renee Klorman:

quickly shifts from the moving around with the needles, and then I take those out

Renee Klorman:

and I step out and they get on the table and if they can lay on their bellies.

Renee Klorman:

So we're back to the neck pain, you know, I, I put some cups on and then

Renee Klorman:

I am still asking them the questions.

Renee Klorman:

What are they doing?

Renee Klorman:

How do they spend their day?

Renee Klorman:

How are they moving?

Renee Klorman:

And then I'm asking you other things and I'm going through digestion and

Renee Klorman:

sleep and stress, and just trying to put the whole picture together, but

Renee Klorman:

I'm also working on their calves.

Renee Klorman:

So I start washing the cats for neck pain immediately because the

Renee Klorman:

fascial line goes through a bunch of fascial lines on the body.

Renee Klorman:

But one goes from the bottom of the feet all the way up the back to the

Renee Klorman:

forehead and I can get a sense of, wow.

Renee Klorman:

The tissue on the calf is.

Renee Klorman:

Developed on your left side, you know, and maybe their

Renee Klorman:

headache is on their left side.

Renee Klorman:

Or I noticed that you are leaning more on your right side.

Renee Klorman:

What are you doing all day that you're doing that to get a sense

Renee Klorman:

of how they're spending their day.

Renee Klorman:

And from that, that's how I use the Katy Bowman material to

Renee Klorman:

teach them ways to think about movement that will shift these.

Renee Klorman:

Sticky movement patterns that they've created over decades and

Renee Klorman:

educating them about osteoporosis.

Renee Klorman:

And you know that this is an inherited cause some people will

Renee Klorman:

say, oh, my mom had neck pain.

Renee Klorman:

So I have neck pain or my mom had Funyuns and I have Funyuns and maybe.

Renee Klorman:

They're inherited through being around the person that you

Renee Klorman:

saw, move your entire life.

Renee Klorman:

You move like the people you're around.

Renee Klorman:

Once I unwind the pattern that brings me all the way back up to their

Renee Klorman:

neck, you know, that I'll come back up to the neck because I already

Renee Klorman:

have an idea of what spiral is.

Renee Klorman:

You know, what, what they're doing, that's causing from the feet all

Renee Klorman:

the way up to the neck that's causing this chain reaction that

Renee Klorman:

then I might, you know, look at the.

Renee Klorman:

The relationship of the intercostals, you know, what kind of sticky points

Renee Klorman:

are happening there, or is the neck pain coming from hand tightness?

Renee Klorman:

Because they're doing specific movements all day long and

Renee Klorman:

it's only one kind of movement.

Renee Klorman:

So their hands are really tight, which means that our forearms,

Renee Klorman:

their biceps, their shoulders up

Michael Max:

into their neck or tight, right.

Michael Max:

They may not even associate their carpal tunnel with.

Michael Max:

With their headaches.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

And it's not even carpal tunnel.

Renee Klorman:

It's like if you put your hands out in front of you and create, try to

Renee Klorman:

create a 90 degree angle with your first finger and your thumb, and then

Renee Klorman:

you might be able to do it in the air.

Renee Klorman:

But as soon as you put your hand on the floor, when you're on all fours, try

Renee Klorman:

to put your hand in a 90 degree angle, your thumb probably will not do it.

Renee Klorman:

And that's forearm tightness.

Renee Klorman:

And if it does do it, you might have.

Renee Klorman:

Cheating a bit by allowing the, the elbow pit, which you want facing forward.

Renee Klorman:

It might rotate, um, internally in order to compensate for the tightness

Renee Klorman:

in that forearm to force your thumb into the 90 degree position.

Renee Klorman:

So that unravels all the way

Michael Max:

up to.

Michael Max:

It sounds like this Katy Bowman material is very I'm thinking

Michael Max:

channel dynamic oriented.

Michael Max:

You know, we often think about there's a problem at one end, we

Michael Max:

go to the opposite end to go work on it because they're connected.

Michael Max:

Somehow.

Michael Max:

It sounds like you are finding through this work, the actual ways it's connected

Michael Max:

beyond it runs along the channel.

Michael Max:

And so therefore it's connected.

Michael Max:

Yes.

Renee Klorman:

When I'm working with people that I really want to change in

Renee Klorman:

their minds is the shape of their habits.

Renee Klorman:

So what is it that they're doing now that if they keep doing, and there's no

Renee Klorman:

intervention, what health concerns is it going to lead to 10 years from now?

Renee Klorman:

And that very much works with the channel health.

Renee Klorman:

I mean, I think about how tight people's feet are and if they get

Renee Klorman:

migraines, if you're using master dogs occupied, You go to the feet

Renee Klorman:

to treat a lot of these problems.

Renee Klorman:

You might do some bloodletting.

Renee Klorman:

You might throw in some acupuncture needles.

Renee Klorman:

So one example would be a medial knee pain.

Renee Klorman:

I've had people come in and say, oh, my foot really hurts right at this point.

Renee Klorman:

And they're pointing to the tuberosity at the fifth metatarsal.

Renee Klorman:

And if I guash all that, it just feels super.

Renee Klorman:

And part of that starts with a rotation that's causing that will cause me pain.

Renee Klorman:

It might be in their foot right now, but it will wind back up

Renee Klorman:

to their knee pretty quickly.

Renee Klorman:

If I give people these markers, they start to have a better relationship with

Renee Klorman:

what their body is that there actually is a body I think, to worry about or

Michael Max:

think about you used a really interesting phrase,

Michael Max:

the shape of people's habits.

Michael Max:

That kind of gets my attention.

Michael Max:

What other kinds of interventions do you do with people?

Michael Max:

I mean, beyond the acupuncture in the cupping and , what kinds of things do you

Michael Max:

send people home with in terms of things they can do for themselves or places

Michael Max:

where they can place their attention, that helps them to help themselves?

Michael Max:

The movement

Renee Klorman:

tips that I give in the beginning might be.

Renee Klorman:

What do you notice about how you're standing there?

Renee Klorman:

Are you meaning, can you lean back into your heels without losing your balance?

Renee Klorman:

When you're being back into your heels, can you wiggle your toes around?

Renee Klorman:

How much time do you spend sitting?

Renee Klorman:

Uh, if you ask someone, if they're sedentary, they will probably say no,

Renee Klorman:

but if you ask someone, if they repeat patterns all the time, I go to work.

Renee Klorman:

I get in my car, I come home and make dinner.

Renee Klorman:

I sit on the couch, then you can start to piece together a more sedentary lifestyle

Renee Klorman:

that they might not even be aware of.

Renee Klorman:

So I challenged someone to sit on the floor if they're going to watch

Renee Klorman:

television, or if they're working at the computer and if they can't sit on

Renee Klorman:

the floor, then that's where we start.

Renee Klorman:

How do I get you safely to the floor and back up without hurting them?

Renee Klorman:

I might ask people to take an inventory of their shoe collection.

Renee Klorman:

You know, how many of their shoes are squeezing their toe box?

Renee Klorman:

How many of their shoes have a heel very or carry is another one.

Renee Klorman:

If I see people walk in and they have this huge bag, they're telling me I

Renee Klorman:

have neck pain, I have a migraine.

Renee Klorman:

And then they carry this huge bag on their.

Renee Klorman:

I pointed the bag and I'm like, stop doing that.

Renee Klorman:

Sometimes I'm more gentle, but sometimes they just need you to see, to be

Renee Klorman:

told, like that's causing a problem.

Renee Klorman:

Part of the problem.

Michael Max:

It's like that old joke, right?

Michael Max:

Dr.

Michael Max:

Hertz, when I do this, the answer is, well, don't do that sometimes.

Michael Max:

Actually that, yeah.

Michael Max:

You know, one of the things that I just heard you saying, and this is

Michael Max:

one of the things that really got me going with reading Katie's work and

Michael Max:

becoming, you know, at least passingly interested in it, the way that she talks

Michael Max:

about movements and micro movements and repetitive moments, things that we do

Michael Max:

every day, it's like we use a certain amount of vocabulary, movement vocabulary.

Michael Max:

And then there's a ton of movement vocabulary that we don't use.

Michael Max:

I mean, this is why I think certain things like tide G and you know,

Michael Max:

some of the old Chinese practices are helpful because they're actually

Michael Max:

asking us to use all kinds of other movements that we wouldn't usually.

Michael Max:

And

Renee Klorman:

what you said earlier, how she relates it to

Renee Klorman:

nutrition in her book, move your DNA.

Renee Klorman:

And for listeners, that would be the first book that I would start with.

Renee Klorman:

If this stuff appeals

Michael Max:

to you.

Michael Max:

Oh, you know what?

Michael Max:

That was it.

Michael Max:

That was how I discovered it.

Michael Max:

Her, I remember getting an audio book of move your DNA.

Michael Max:

That's where it came from.

Renee Klorman:

It's laying out this idea of the subset of kinesiology,

Renee Klorman:

which is biomechanics and biomechanics studies, the structure and function.

Renee Klorman:

The mechanical aspects of biological whole biological systems, including ourselves.

Renee Klorman:

And then it's down the cells.

Renee Klorman:

That's the name of your DNA?

Renee Klorman:

So she, in that lays out movement is like food.

Renee Klorman:

It's not optional.

Renee Klorman:

She says that we're receiving these signals of movement,

Renee Klorman:

starvation that we've just ignored.

Renee Klorman:

And the entire book is an argument that we can no longer ignore that because

Renee Klorman:

so many of our 21st century health concerns are about being sedentary.

Renee Klorman:

My point is it's will again, I hope you're enjoying the podcast.

Renee Klorman:

Sorry.

Renee Klorman:

I think the secret of success and treating the majority of digestive

Renee Klorman:

problems is to focus on the key dynamic.

Renee Klorman:

That is the incentives planche and the descent of stomach Chi.

Renee Klorman:

If the cheer dynamic is robust and working properly, then the system tends

Renee Klorman:

to naturally move towards homeostasis.

Renee Klorman:

Now, the way to achieve this is to use herbs with opposing characteristics.

Renee Klorman:

For example, combining bitter cold herbs with accurate hot, hot.

Renee Klorman:

Peter cold.

Renee Klorman:

Herb's tend to draw cheat, inwards, and downwards, whereas accurate hot

Renee Klorman:

herbs cause cheetah rise and expand.

Renee Klorman:

When you put them together, the combination drives a dynamo

Renee Klorman:

and stimulates CIM movement.

Renee Klorman:

A classic example is bitter cold, one Leanne with accurate hot.

Renee Klorman:

Would you, you, this combination powerfully drives.

Renee Klorman:

And it's used specifically for the treatment of gastroesophageal reflux.

Renee Klorman:

The same principle is at the heart of some of our most

Renee Klorman:

effective and beloved formulas.

Renee Klorman:

For example, bitter called one Leanne and one chin, uh, combined

Renee Klorman:

with in the wonderful bunchy.

Renee Klorman:

She has tongue.

Renee Klorman:

Similarly, the rising nature of Geogen is combined with the descending nature

Renee Klorman:

of new sheet to drive the Chan blood movement in . Geogen combines with

Renee Klorman:

bitter Shinran to drive the lung cheat dynamic, to treat cough more information

Renee Klorman:

on all of this can be found in the new second edition of my clinical handbook

Renee Klorman:

of internal medicine, which is available from Eastland press back to the podcast.

Michael Max:

You know, as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking about

Michael Max:

the way that the brain processes.

Michael Max:

Signals through the nervous system.

Michael Max:

And if we're just moving certain muscles, if we're just using certain neurons,

Michael Max:

certain patterns, it seems like there's whole areas of the brain that would

Michael Max:

kind of go to sleep or atrophy a bit.

Michael Max:

Whereas if we're moving more fully, if we're moving in a more

Michael Max:

embodied way, if we're using more of our physiology, I'm wondering

Michael Max:

if our brain might be more healthy.

Michael Max:

Has she looked into that at all?

Michael Max:

Is that, is that part of what she talks about?

Renee Klorman:

There's absolutely a brain and body connection.

Renee Klorman:

You know, I go back to the feet, the hands and the feet have there's so many sensory,

Renee Klorman:

you know, brain sensory stimulation.

Renee Klorman:

I can't think of the right parts right now.

Renee Klorman:

And we use them for our hands, but we don't use them for our feet and the feet.

Renee Klorman:

You know, are there this complex structure of 26 bones and 33

Michael Max:

joints, right.

Michael Max:

That holds us up that holds us straight up.

Michael Max:

It's amazing.

Renee Klorman:

It's not only how you move.

Renee Klorman:

It's what you're moving on.

Renee Klorman:

So are you spending your entire day repeating a concrete to.

Renee Klorman:

Office, you know, carpet, like what kind of textures are you touching?

Renee Klorman:

How much time do you spend barefoot?

Renee Klorman:

Because that's giving the brain all kinds of information about what to

Renee Klorman:

focus on, you know, oh, this person needs to balance in this certain way.

Renee Klorman:

This is the sensory I'm feeling.

Renee Klorman:

This is how I need to respond to the way this person is moving.

Renee Klorman:

Learning to walk over rocks, learn to stretch out your feet with a ball,

Renee Klorman:

spending some time walking over.

Renee Klorman:

Grass and dirt and wood and, you know, just giving it's like a child.

Renee Klorman:

Like you want to keep your feet as much information as possible in order

Renee Klorman:

to help the rest of the Connecticut.

Renee Klorman:

First

Michael Max:

of all.

Michael Max:

I love her sense of humor.

Michael Max:

She's hilarious.

Michael Max:

And I love her riff on shoes or as she calls them sensory deprivation.

Michael Max:

Chambers.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So often I see people wearing these like foamy, squishy shoes.

Michael Max:

I go, oh, these are good shoes.

Michael Max:

They support me.

Michael Max:

And I look at them and go, how could you feel anything in there?

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

Or there's the people who come in, I've got this issue.

Michael Max:

My, you know, XYZ practitioner recommended these orthotics.

Michael Max:

Orthotics is a big thing here in the Midwest.

Michael Max:

I don't, I don't know about where you're at, but you know, here everyone's

Michael Max:

like, oh, I gotta have my orthotics.

Michael Max:

And I'm thinking to myself, especially after reading Katie's work.

Michael Max:

I think great.

Michael Max:

You've got this dysfunctional movement pattern and now you're locking it into

Michael Max:

place with this thing that holds it in.

Michael Max:

Stacy's basically, I'm so

Renee Klorman:

glad you brought up orthotics.

Renee Klorman:

They're helping one part of the problem.

Renee Klorman:

You know, someone has foot pain, but they have foot pain because

Renee Klorman:

they have a weakness in their ankle, knee hips, and the orthotics.

Renee Klorman:

Them not feel that weakness, so it's great.

Renee Klorman:

They can go about their day and I'm happy that someone's comfortable,

Renee Klorman:

but ideally he wants you focus on the alignment element that is causing

Renee Klorman:

pain somewhere in the, in the process.

Renee Klorman:

You know, that, is it ankle pain?

Renee Klorman:

Is it that they there's no such thing as high arches.

Renee Klorman:

It's just muscular.

Renee Klorman:

Arches is a, not an anatomical.

Renee Klorman:

But it's something that people use.

Renee Klorman:

Oh, I have fallen arches.

Renee Klorman:

What that really is.

Renee Klorman:

If they have an internal rotation of their tibia, fibia, and

Renee Klorman:

their feet are collapsing in.

Renee Klorman:

So, you know, how do you teach someone to externally to even recognize what

Renee Klorman:

this means, but to externally rotate the femur and then help relax the quads.

Renee Klorman:

So the knees have more space to move around because most people's.

Renee Klorman:

Most of their gay, uh, locked, their quads are so locked that it pulls

Renee Klorman:

the kneecap back into the bone and then they start to have knee pain or

Renee Klorman:

are they leaning up against things?

Renee Klorman:

Are they pelvic thrusting?

Renee Klorman:

And that changes the entire alignment.

Renee Klorman:

So all of these pieces are affected and that's why they

Renee Klorman:

ended up in orthotics potentially.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

We'd like to look at treatments and Chinese medicine, there's

Michael Max:

branch and there's root.

Michael Max:

So orthotics is kind of a branch treatment that actually is.

Michael Max:

Causing problems to the root.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah, I think about that with other ailments and Chinese medicine.

Renee Klorman:

What if this person had more hand flexibility, would

Renee Klorman:

they get less headaches?

Renee Klorman:

You know, a lot of the master Don points, foot and hand, there are so many points on

Renee Klorman:

the hand and I, you know, what their knees hurt last, you know, what they, if they

Renee Klorman:

move differently and it just started with hand flexibility, that would also lead to.

Renee Klorman:

You know, less tension in the forearm or less tension in the bicep.

Renee Klorman:

And the same as at the feet, if they started with this simple

Renee Klorman:

challenge of when I get home, I don't go right into my slippers.

Renee Klorman:

I challenged myself to walk on the floor for awhile, or I drink my

Renee Klorman:

coffee and listen to my podcast or watch the morning news and roll up.

Renee Klorman:

Um, it was just micro changes.

Renee Klorman:

When

Michael Max:

you say roll on a ball, are you talking in a golf ball, a tennis ball.

Michael Max:

Uh, w w w what are you

Renee Klorman:

talking about here?

Renee Klorman:

I guess it depends on the person.

Renee Klorman:

Initially, they are starting out with a softball.

Renee Klorman:

The texture of a yoga tuneup ball is really ideal in the beginning, because

Renee Klorman:

it's about the size of a racquetball, but it's a little squishier and it's

Renee Klorman:

not, it allows the foot to stand up.

Renee Klorman:

And move around and not be painful.

Renee Klorman:

Some balls are just too hard for people in the beginning, or even

Renee Klorman:

just getting to know your feet, you know, spending time looking at it and

Renee Klorman:

figuring out where the calluses are.

Renee Klorman:

Where are you spending the most time walking?

Renee Klorman:

You know, if you have a callus on your toe, are you

Renee Klorman:

gripping your toe as you walk?

Renee Klorman:

Or are you leaning in to that path of the first.

Renee Klorman:

More.

Renee Klorman:

So wherever we have callouses is where the most, the most circulation is.

Renee Klorman:

It's actually a good sign.

Renee Klorman:

And so it's a great way to recognize where you're not moving.

Michael Max:

So these would be the areas of stagnation,

Renee Klorman:

not the callus.

Renee Klorman:

The other areas would be the areas of

Michael Max:

stagnation.

Michael Max:

So the calluses where you have more

Renee Klorman:

motion.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

The callus is where you're spending almost all of your time.

Michael Max:

What about things like Bunyan's?

Renee Klorman:

Hmm.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

Vines are a it's the first metatarsal.

Renee Klorman:

The phalynx is the big toe is curving in and it's because the first

Renee Klorman:

metatarsal is adjusting to a tight shoe that somebody has been wearing.

Renee Klorman:

What causes a Bunyan is wearing a narrow toe box, your feet, especially your toes.

Renee Klorman:

Don't have any room to move around.

Renee Klorman:

So they're being deformed over many, many years of wearing

Renee Klorman:

shoes that holds your feet.

Renee Klorman:

Almost like a cast.

Renee Klorman:

In fact, exactly like a cast.

Renee Klorman:

So women, you see bunions on women because the shoe box, the toe box is so narrow.

Renee Klorman:

You know, in our culture, that's seen as a more feminine look, but it's destabilizing

Renee Klorman:

the entire kinetic chain of alignment.

Renee Klorman:

If you put your hands in gloves and you try to do things throughout your day,

Renee Klorman:

that's what your feet have been doing and they have to carry your entire body.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

Or mittens.

Michael Max:

What have you, what, what if you put your hands in mittens?

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

So shoes or shoes or the mittens of feet.

Renee Klorman:

It's not only a narrow toe box, but it's also a heel and it's only in the last,

Renee Klorman:

you know, probably seven, eight years that there are more and more shoes that have a

Renee Klorman:

negative heel, which has no heel at all.

Renee Klorman:

But they're really hard to find it's a, it's a niche industry.

Renee Klorman:

So often you have to order them online.

Renee Klorman:

You know, you have to look for them and it's not, they don't make it easy because

Renee Klorman:

it's not, there's not a demand for it.

Renee Klorman:

But between heel and narrow toe,

Michael Max:

I'm thinking of, well, a number of women I've treated

Michael Max:

over the years who have been cramming their feet into some sort

Michael Max:

of heels with narrow toe boxes.

Michael Max:

They usually come in from migraines.

Michael Max:

They're addicted to these damn shoes.

Michael Max:

They usually have to wear them because of the business that they're in.

Michael Max:

I know that that when I've palpated their feet and especially if I'm

Michael Max:

like trying to slide a needle into gallbladder 41, There are, there are

Michael Max:

some people it's like gallbladder 41.

Michael Max:

I can't even get the bones to open up enough to really get a needle in there.

Renee Klorman:

is really helpful for that.

Renee Klorman:

If the person is willing, not everybody, I offer a compelling argument for doing it.

Renee Klorman:

And if someone isn't ticklish, I can generally hold their foot in such

Renee Klorman:

a way that it's not uncomfortable.

Renee Klorman:

Once I start doing it, people fall in love with it.

Renee Klorman:

The same.

Renee Klorman:

The rheumatoid arthritis patients that I have, like wash all their hands

Renee Klorman:

and it really changes the defamation of their fingers in relationship to

Renee Klorman:

their hand and the same with the feet.

Renee Klorman:

So one or two guash all treatments.

Renee Klorman:

And that, that space between the, the metatarsal spoken.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

So you're looking for these areas of tightness, these areas where there's lack

Michael Max:

of movement and you just, you doing your basic wash out technique on it, or is

Michael Max:

there something special that you're doing

Renee Klorman:

here?

Renee Klorman:

I don't think there's anything special.

Renee Klorman:

The tool I have, which I really like, it was made by an acupuncturist in Portland.

Renee Klorman:

His company is called Acue artistry and he makes Japanese tools.

Renee Klorman:

And one of them is a copper washer tool and it has a really lovely shape

Renee Klorman:

to it that it works for my hand.

Renee Klorman:

It doesn't work for other, some other people's hands,

Renee Klorman:

but there's one edge of it.

Renee Klorman:

That's a little more narrow, so I can really get into the group.

Renee Klorman:

Of each metatarsal, which helps with Morton's neuroma as well.

Renee Klorman:

Um, that often happens between the, you know, the third and fourth toe.

Michael Max:

Yeah, I have.

Michael Max:

So unsuccessfully treated people with Morton's neuroma.

Michael Max:

Tell us about how to help these folks

Renee Klorman:

really guash eyeing the feet and the calves.

Renee Klorman:

And then, you know, thinking about it is guaranteed.

Renee Klorman:

Like you're saying that these women who come in.

Renee Klorman:

Their favorite shoes and they have migraines and they're not

Renee Klorman:

willing to give up their shoes.

Renee Klorman:

There is inevitably shoulder, neck tension, and a weakness, you know,

Renee Klorman:

possibly a rotation, you know, kyphosis, a hyper kyphosis that the upper body.

Renee Klorman:

So in working with Morton's neuroma, I would make sure that I always cut the

Renee Klorman:

back to start loosening those muscles and then go down and squash all the cat.

Renee Klorman:

And I do the front and the back.

Renee Klorman:

I work on the tibialis anterior because I'm heals the tibialis.

Renee Klorman:

Anterior will be quite tight and shortened.

Renee Klorman:

I don't remember the exact percentage, but anyone wearing heels it's, it's shortening

Renee Klorman:

the muscles by a significant percentage.

Renee Klorman:

So learning to lengthen those muscles.

Renee Klorman:

So in working with the metatarsal and working in between the metatarsal,

Renee Klorman:

depending on the severity, it could be.

Renee Klorman:

One treatment or I could take three treatments, but often by the third

Renee Klorman:

treatment, then Morton's neuroma.

Renee Klorman:

Doesn't put them anymore.

Michael Max:

That's astonishing.

Michael Max:

And, and I'm thinking about a patient I have, who's got a Morton's neuroma.

Michael Max:

I've been phenomenally unsuccessful at helping her.

Michael Max:

And she's also got this hip pain on the same side.

Renee Klorman:

It can go two ways.

Renee Klorman:

Like I said, if you hold the heel going to gentle with guash.

Renee Klorman:

Aw.

Renee Klorman:

It might tickle them.

Renee Klorman:

I was started the lateral edge so they can get used to the feeling of it.

Renee Klorman:

And you have to apply a certain amount of pressure, but in holding

Renee Klorman:

the heel, it kind of offers an anchor.

Renee Klorman:

So they don't, it doesn't hurt as much.

Renee Klorman:

And you always want them on their belly, you know, with pillow

Renee Klorman:

support underneath their feet.

Renee Klorman:

And then as you begin, just ask them to give you feedback.

Renee Klorman:

Let me know if this is too much and there'll be, there'll be areas.

Renee Klorman:

So generally someone with a Morton's neuroma.

Renee Klorman:

They will not be able to handle a lot of pressure between the second,

Renee Klorman:

between the second and fourth toe, wherever the, if it's between the second

Renee Klorman:

and third or the third and fourth.

Renee Klorman:

Um, usually it's between the second and third.

Renee Klorman:

So you want to go in a little bit gentle I've used moxa, um, after doing wash

Renee Klorman:

off and that will help soothe the area.

Renee Klorman:

So they don't feel too inflamed.

Renee Klorman:

Um, I always tell them to go home and soak in some absences.

Renee Klorman:

And not just a little Epsom salts, like if they're not, if they have

Renee Klorman:

no heart condition and they're not taking heart medications.

Renee Klorman:

And I say like two cups of Epsom salts in a bath up to your ankle and just

Renee Klorman:

soak for 20 minutes and that, that will bring down the inflammation and then

Renee Klorman:

mostly be the next week and they'll report, you know, 50% difference.

Renee Klorman:

And then you can just slowly whittled.

Michael Max:

I'm just being quiet here for a moment and thinking about

Michael Max:

a number of patients I've had over the years that I could have helped.

Michael Max:

Had I known this sooner when you're doing the GWAS Shaw on the calf.

Michael Max:

You know, often we see guash hour, it's done on the upper back shoulders.

Michael Max:

You know, you get, you get a lot of shots, very, um, colorful

Michael Max:

and dramatic GWAS shine.

Michael Max:

These other parts of the body.

Michael Max:

I mean, I'm suspecting as your in the sole of the foot or the top of

Michael Max:

the foot you're are you seeing much Shaw or is it more that you're going

Michael Max:

in and breaking up these adhesions?

Michael Max:

No,

Renee Klorman:

you're not seeing the same kind of dramatic.

Renee Klorman:

Shall response that you might see on the back, it gets a little red, and

Renee Klorman:

then you can kind of see this whiteness.

Renee Klorman:

And that's the crunchy when you're working on somebody's foot or an area where there

Renee Klorman:

is a lot of connective tissue adhesions, it will have this crunchy feeling to it.

Renee Klorman:

And that's, that's sort of the diagnostic response, but you're

Renee Klorman:

not going to get any color.

Michael Max:

You're looking to see that, that crunchy stuff eventually smooth

Michael Max:

out and not be by corrugator carb.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

In working on the, the calves around gallbladder 34, you will feel that tendon

Renee Klorman:

smooth out over time as they learn how to doing the, doing the work with the

Renee Klorman:

ball on the foot and learning how to massage the foot and, you know, going

Renee Klorman:

from toe to heel, heel to toe that's one way, or just draping the foot over a ball

Renee Klorman:

and doing a more of a fascial release where they're just holding it there.

Renee Klorman:

You know, a minute, um, or doing calf stretches, you will

Renee Klorman:

feel the perennials change.

Renee Klorman:

And it's a different sensation with a wash out tool.

Renee Klorman:

And then palpating, you know, sometimes you get those little nodules that

Renee Klorman:

you'll feel when you're palpating, that doesn't come across as much with the

Renee Klorman:

. It's more what you're talking about.

Renee Klorman:

The corrugated

Michael Max:

feeling.

Michael Max:

One of the things that I've noticed in reading Katie's stuff is a lot of

Michael Max:

the movements they're really small.

Michael Max:

I mean, it's not big dramatic stuff.

Michael Max:

This is not, it probably wouldn't be good for the internet.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

Cause it's, it's not this big dramatic thing.

Michael Max:

It's these really small movements.

Michael Max:

And I mean, it's not just using intention.

Michael Max:

I mean, obviously you've got to use some, you got to have some ability

Michael Max:

to pay attention to what your body is doing, but it seems to me a lot of

Michael Max:

her stuff and correct me if I'm wrong.

Michael Max:

It's small.

Michael Max:

It's subtle.

Michael Max:

It's not big and dramatic.

Renee Klorman:

Yes.

Renee Klorman:

And that is why it is hard to compel people of its importance because we're

Renee Klorman:

so used to, in a culture of convenience where used to big flashy things, we're

Renee Klorman:

used to these instant gratification.

Renee Klorman:

And it's not, it's not that at all.

Renee Klorman:

Some, some parts of it are, but it could be weeks.

Renee Klorman:

It could be.

Renee Klorman:

These are slow habit modifications through corrective exercises, and

Renee Klorman:

that's where the success happens.

Renee Klorman:

It looks simple, but from experience being taught in person versus trying

Renee Klorman:

to learn through a book, it's very different because the, a teacher

Renee Klorman:

part of the two year training that I did to become a restorative

Renee Klorman:

exercise specialist as a learner.

Renee Klorman:

How the exercises feel in my body and to learn, to be really patient

Renee Klorman:

with doing, like you're saying these small slow, subtle shifts.

Renee Klorman:

One of the ways that I feel it's changed my practice on how I look at the human

Renee Klorman:

body and observe is it really is a present moment experience because once you get

Renee Klorman:

excited about it and you want to see these changes in your body, everything you do.

Renee Klorman:

Becomes the playing field.

Renee Klorman:

Every movement you make is trying to see how your body moves in alignment

Renee Klorman:

and what's causing you to feel pain and what you were doing before that that

Renee Klorman:

was possibly out of alignment or what corrective exercises you need to do.

Renee Klorman:

But yeah, it could be as simple as a calf stretch or a head hang or,

Renee Klorman:

you know, one is head ramping when people are driving or on the computer,

Renee Klorman:

they'll jump their headphones.

Renee Klorman:

And teaching someone to recognize that and then how to she calls it head ramping.

Renee Klorman:

So it's not quite pulling your chin back to get your ear over your shoulder.

Renee Klorman:

It's, it's more like backing into a carport or walking backwards with

Renee Klorman:

your chin and bringing it up into a, um, an angle as if you're driving up

Renee Klorman:

into an uphill garage or something.

Renee Klorman:

It's hard to accept.

Renee Klorman:

I haven't found a good way to explain that one verbally.

Michael Max:

I'm just playing around here with my own chin and

Michael Max:

neck, as you're talking about it.

Michael Max:

I don't know if I'm doing it right or not.

Michael Max:

You're not in front of me, but I can tell you this.

Michael Max:

I feel my cervical spine just kind of opened up and lengthened.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

So that's how you would know.

Renee Klorman:

You know, if you just push your chin back over your, to get your ear out,

Renee Klorman:

try to get your ear over your shoulder.

Renee Klorman:

It's going to crunch the.

Renee Klorman:

It's going to compress the cervical spine.

Renee Klorman:

So yeah, if you're doing it correctly, you will feel this lengthening and then

Renee Klorman:

most likely the tight muscles of your shoulder coming along for the ride.

Renee Klorman:

And when you do that, you probably raised your chest a little bit to compensate.

Renee Klorman:

So then you have to learn how to drop your ribs.

Renee Klorman:

Um, which is another one that's hard to do over and over without seeing a person.

Renee Klorman:

But what you're looking for.

Renee Klorman:

The bonus part of the bottom of the ribs that you might feel.

Renee Klorman:

If you're lifting your chest, you try to drop that down and have that

Renee Klorman:

lineup with the ASI of the pelvis.

Renee Klorman:

And what that will do is it will push your head forward again, and it will

Renee Klorman:

make you feel like you're slouching over.

Renee Klorman:

So you just Teeter between those two things as often as possible.

Renee Klorman:

And it will happen.

Renee Klorman:

You'll do it a thousand times.

Michael Max:

So there's some real Moto neuro repatterning

Michael Max:

that has to happen here.

Michael Max:

This is not a one and done, and it's not just like, oh, I'm

Michael Max:

going to be mindful of this.

Michael Max:

It's you have to be really engaged with it.

Michael Max:

It sounds like.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Renee Klorman:

I think that's where it fits so nicely into what we do, you know, as

Renee Klorman:

an east Asian medicine practitioner, because we are looking at.

Renee Klorman:

Everything, how someone does.

Renee Klorman:

One thing is how they do everything.

Renee Klorman:

Right.

Renee Klorman:

And I love that, you know, you're, you're trying to like unwind that for them and

Renee Klorman:

get them excited about feeling different, you know, what is it, what is their

Renee Klorman:

internal motivation for coming to see you and really trying to tap into that.

Renee Klorman:

And movement is a fantastic way because people feel it.

Renee Klorman:

You feel the difference pretty quick.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

And, and you sidestep a lot of the stories as well in our, like we were

Michael Max:

saying earlier, people go, oh, it's because I'm aging or it's because I play

Michael Max:

tennis or it's because I do X or Y or Z.

Michael Max:

There's always a story for why something is a certain way.

Michael Max:

And it sounds like with the work that you're doing and these subtle

Michael Max:

small corrections that you're asking people to be attentive to it, it

Michael Max:

kind of sidesteps the story and just.

Michael Max:

People to pay attention.

Michael Max:

Well, what is my body doing?

Michael Max:

Or what's even more interesting not doing at this moment and

Renee Klorman:

there'll be sore.

Renee Klorman:

I think I was sore for six months and they're so subtle.

Renee Klorman:

You can imagine.

Renee Klorman:

And I would wake up sore every single day.

Renee Klorman:

It really shows you how little of yourself you're moving.

Renee Klorman:

If you've just been doing the same thing for decades, you know, sitting in a car.

Renee Klorman:

Slouching working at a computer.

Renee Klorman:

And I really worry about the people who grew up now, young

Renee Klorman:

people who don't even know a life without a computer or a cell phone.

Renee Klorman:

And I look at them and they're hunched over and that's just going to get

Michael Max:

worse.

Michael Max:

Well, to keep us in business,

Renee Klorman:

don't keep us in business.

Renee Klorman:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

For folks that are interested and I can put this on the website as

Michael Max:

well, but just real quickly, if somebody wanted to dig a little more into Katie's

Michael Max:

work, whereas a couple of places to begin

Renee Klorman:

her website, nutritious movement.com is a great place to start.

Renee Klorman:

She had, she has 10 years of blogging, so I think 300 articles.

Renee Klorman:

And she also has some YouTube videos.

Renee Klorman:

Again, move your DNA is the book that I would suggest beginning

Renee Klorman:

with if this work exciting.

Renee Klorman:

Unfortunately, she closed the certification.

Renee Klorman:

Um, she wants to focus on the people who are already certified.

Renee Klorman:

And so that is not going to be an option, but you can definitely

Renee Klorman:

get, find restorative exercise specialists in your area.

Renee Klorman:

And there's a search on her website.

Renee Klorman:

So you can find the closest person there, videos that you can get she's prolific.

Renee Klorman:

So there'll be a lot of reasons.

Michael Max:

Well, I thank you so much for your time today.

Michael Max:

This has been a real pleasure to sit down with you and get a

Michael Max:

little deeper into Katie's work.

Michael Max:

You know, again, I was exposed to it a little bit and I've got some

Michael Max:

better ideas now about how I might be able to incorporate this in my work.

Michael Max:

I can't wait to see.

Michael Max:

Morton's neuroma patient who I know is coming in here again in two weeks.

Renee Klorman:

I'm so glad.

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