There are certain things that are always with us in life. Fear, desire, disappointment and conflict are all things that we have to navigate around. In this episode we talked about dealing with conflict.

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips.

Tonight, we're talking about conflict and in the breakout rooms, you are discussing, where do you where is the most conflict in your life? Does anyone want to share or talk about anything, Margaret?

Yeah, I'd like to know, does it make a difference? Does it make any difference whether it's at work or whether it's at home or personal relationships, the conflict in what you're saying.

But what I'm doing with academic, I don't think I'm being judgmental, but they're quite certain that they won't they won't listen to anybody else's point of view. So the only way I could deal with it is to say that we have to go our separate ways. You've got your idea and I've got my ideas. But we can't meet we can't meet an even thing, even in personal relationships. The same thing. So have you got any advice on how you can deal with that?

OK, we'll be talk about that later. So it's a work situation and it's so so the conflict is really where these people have studied a field for a long time and have a lot of confidence in their view, which can be perceived as arrogant. And so is it that they feel that they feel like they know? Yes, that's what your interpretation is. You can we can we come back to that? Because I want to. Sure. How we deal with conflicts of anyone else.

I did say that as a co-dependent and a people pleaser. I avoided conflict for a lot of the time. Actually, I used to do that, too. I think especially in romantic relationships. I used to I didn't want to ruin the moment or rock the boat so I wouldn't bring things up. And I'd kind of almost unnoticed myself that I kind of wait until I've got a collection of things that really pissed me off and then I'd go forward and talk about it, which wasn't the best idea.

It wasn't the best approach, partly because it just seemed like I was like, you did this. You thought you did this. I tried to do it in an empathetic way, but I just thought you would come to you everything. I'll just come to you in one. Go look at the doctors. You just forgot one thing. Yeah, that didn't quite work. So now I do it as things come up. And it's been a really hard fight.

It's been really, really hard to do that and not seem like a moaning. OK, but it kind of works a little bit better now. I think I need to sort of make sure that you're on the same page. I but definitely I used to a people, but not much anymore who genuinely feels as you've matured, you've become less willing to be a people pleaser or to keep things quiet.

I think just simply not people people pleaser. We just we just try to avoid the conflict. Afraid if you see even our government sometimes do that and just. Oh yeah. Let's let's listen to the people want. But just do you really what they want. Because if you can offer for anybody they will always want to see. But that's really what you want. Because if it's reasonable, is there any more behind.

I'm always so scared. That's my yeah. I don't know, game going to leave me. So I do everything he wants me to do always. I'm really sorry I'm late 50s housewife. I clean, I cook, I fix everything but we don't have to eat together. And I'm really scared that he going to be like angry or think that I save wrong things or I do wrong things. And then when we ask when we start our coffee, we going to be we are really angry and we scream.

And yeah, it's too much a big problem for me. I've always found that resolving disputes, if you want to call conflict, is much harder when you have emotions or comes to emotions. Just exaggerate everything. So and I was saying or doing the chat room, I mean, I could have a challenging conversation with someone I don't know and perhaps I don't even care about very confidently and very rationally. Having exactly the same conversation with a spouse or my child will probably be very hard.

I find myself getting all worked up. And because you are saying. But you're going to make a mistake and this isn't it, it takes time to learn to manage the. I think, yeah, as a quick show of hands, generally, is there more conflicts but professionally work at home or is it somewhere else, like with friends and family? Yeah, family, family farms with Amazon.

I think family, because people are more critical to people who care so much about them, so deeply about what they think. And because they worry about what they think, they want to please them. They want to look in their eyes like, you know, like dad as a good person.

It's also because we have more expectations from our family knows because they're close. So cut deeper. You shared DNA, you share blood and shared early memories. Yeah, but that's for me why it is the deepest.

And I think what that means is because of that, you have certain expectations of them because they're your closest try.

It does. And sometimes you actually expecting them to understand you all the time and opposites. But actually that's not always happens because we are humans.

So you expect them to care. And when they don't care, it's disappointing or disappointing. The less felt it as well and edited. I love that about about my sister in that we can be really honest with each other, but brutally honest. But yeah, you can't always take it as a place to at work situations where you're brutally honest about the fact.

But I just ask myself what was the hardest on the new hair color, which she did it. So she's pretty proud of it. Yeah, it's a bit now, but, um, Helen, did you have something to say?

Oh, no, you're right. Nothing yet.

Okay. Just feel free to join in just for I think anyone who is me. What we generally do is we have the same we have private discussions. The breakout room, what's in the main room here is recorded. So you can listen to the audio recorded so you can listen to anything, any of the past tapes. Okay, so with that said, I just want to set up the framework and maybe look at conflict in a slightly different way.

So I think when you first look at conflicts, there's five levels of conflict where really a lot of a lot of our problems as individuals, as society comes from a there's a core conflict. And that conflict is that we are biological animals and we're living in an artificially constructed society. And so this is where we're supposed to conform to society norms like everyone in school should do this. And yet it's contrary to our biological instincts.

Rob, sorry. Could I ask what the definition of a conflict is?

Good question. So for me, a conflict is basically where two people want two different things. It's where even the results, such as someone's time, someone's attention, someone money or whatever, is limited. And we can't both have it because if someone has basically been torn into two different outcomes that are mutually exclusive. So, for example, in a relationship so so if we look at a core conflict in society, what society demands are, more biological instincts are, that's two different things.

The next level is where you have inner conflict. So we want to do this, but we also want to do this. So the most basic one is we want to eat the cake and we want to be slim. We want to spend the money and not have the dark. We want to like he feels they've got too much to do, too many things to do and not enough time. So that's that's a basic conflict. So the next level, I would say, is if a partner or family conflict where you and someone really close to you and that conflict can be.

They want you to do something and you don't want it, you say, for example, your parents and children, you want two different things. Or like siblings fighting for resources, that kind of thing is a conflict. So the next level is conflict within the tribe. So this can be you versus people on your team. Like if you're at work, it might be people in your department you might have conflict with. It may be in society.

Society's like pressure groups. So pressure groups are fighting for something and then someone else. So they're within the same tribe that they see the same society, but they have different goals and different aims.

And then it sounds like you're saying that conflict arises when these two forces, but they're not going in the same direction they're going in, perhaps not just different directions, but the opposing direction. But I was just wondering if the husband says he wants trees and the wife says that she wants tomatoes just because they want different things. They don't have to, as it were, conflict, do they? Can they not agree to disagree? And just because we want different things in life?

Does that mean there has to be a conflict? Do we have to, as it were, clash?

No, I think the conflict comes even when it's mutually exclusive. So if he wants peace or she wants Chinese and we can't have both, isn't it a bit like in a competitive field? You know, like even amongst friends? I've got a friend who plays tennis and it's like you have to come down there and bash you up. It's not it's not necessarily serious. That's that's a difference of opinion against each other. But the other bit would be where actually turn nasty, genuine emotion and anger or disdain.

And I think there's a real difference there, but only slightly, if you think about it. Still competitiveness against each other difference. But yet one of them is very much emotion them.

So sport is conflict because they can only be one winner. So that's that's where the conflict is and that same conflict is like Khalil says, if you've got two companies who are vying for market share, then that that that's where the conflict comes in, because it becomes serious then because it's a resource that you really want in a school. We know it's a game and we know that there's only one way to fight for it, but then we accept it because that's that's the difference.

It could be two people romantically interested in the same person. That's a conflict. There's there's there's that kind of conflict. And in the last one, these, I think tried versus tried can be like, you know, you get family feuds with this family and this family got each other. Or it can be like marketing and sales to each other, all accounts and whatever it can be, football teams, which is like you identify with a team or country and you're playing in another country.

And so that becomes an enmity in it and it can be between nations. So this is where you get wars or it can be religious groups or in any way that you see yourself as different from other people like them. I try. They're not my tribe. And that's why this tribe conflict. So it's really about me. Conflict is I will not want this, but you can't both have it because like you say, Betty, if you want cheese and you want tomato, it doesn't matter because there's no conflict.

But where it comes, conflict comes when you have one of you has to win and one has to lose. Like you can't both get what you want. Yeah. You can't both get what you want on that level. So I think the idea of the mythical one in relationships. Is the idea that there's no conflict, if you find this one will be happy forever. One want the same things will happen in the same house, will want the same takeaways, watch the same films that live in the same house, the same way of bringing up children have sex.

The same amount of times and ways have spent the money in the same way, all of those things. I think the idea of the mythical one is that there is conflict.

Sounds like the ground, actually, I thought it sounds like the one is yourself. So I got my house. I'm going to date me. I'm going to go to the cinema with me. And I like all the things that me like. This is great. I've never found me. This is.

Oh, yeah. That would be so much simpler. Howard Mottram talks about. In relationship, specifically, when we argue there's hidden issues so that ostensibly we're arguing about cheese vs. tomato, but what we're really arguing about is about power, who has power, who is allowed to have power over me. Does the average person care? Do they recognize that they really see me? Are they committed to me? And. Are they acting with integrity and do they accept me, Margaret, to back your example, straightforward, if it's straightforward, there's a conflict, OK, when it's straightforward, I think if we don't have these hidden things is a resource that we both want.

Or it's something else or something else. That we know not been explicit about, so there's something in that. So looking at that frame. The academics that you have conflict with. What do you think? They're most looking for. As in so I'll repeat again, power. Caring. Recognition. Commitment, integrity or acceptance? Power. Because they feel that they've reached the position they've got, prove themselves with their.

Yeah, exactly.

I know how I feel if they value me. They've studied so many years and they feel they're an expert in their field.

And from your perspective or any of these actors, you. Do you feel. Do you feel it's like one way or do you feel. Frightened or not heard or not listened to or not respected.

How would you say yes? These are academics. How would you say, yes, they've got power, but some of them haven't got any common sense? And what what the nonacademic because they haven't. What's worth they haven't got the skills of possibly looking for solutions of drugs. For example, I we'll give you an example of a charity wanted to raise money for funds. So one person said to me, they're an academic, oh, I can get such and such a one to to donate.

And that would be enough money. But apparently it wasn't enough money. I had my own I had my own idea on it. And the idea was to raise the extra funds that they need. They needed to buy the medication. And I got quite a lot of money through them, which they wouldn't have thought of. So one complements the other, but they've got to be they've got to be willing to listen. Can I just say something about people who have power based on probably one one main thing in their lives, not just academics, but that is what makes them that's what gives them respect.

And when they're challenged, they feel challenged. They sometimes think, what am I without this? If that goes, then I'm nobody. And so there's a fair comment from them to not allow you to challenge them because they're afraid of being stripped back to nothing. So there's a big insecurity underneath that facade of power, and it's that sometimes I think drives the behavior nuts and sometimes people also give off the this air of great authority in a particular area.

And I'm not saying this about anybody in particular, but sometimes they do and they are scared of being challenged because sometimes they're just not really secure in the aura that they present. And so you get people who are quite insecure.

This has been a real problem in the scientific community, as well as intellectual snobbery or intellectual dishonesty. The way that they might not be. Right. So they closed that brain in the loop and that halts things. And these people are so-called leaders or experts. And therefore, progression in things like electric vehicles and clean energy has been held back also in the fields of archaeology and history. People say, no, there's no way that could be possible. And then they keep finding things that are older and older and older.

And these people have all been wrong despite them, because because, like you say, they've tested themselves to it. So, yeah, it's interesting that when you look at someone like Elon Musk, it took him to develop like the electric car that really worked. And space is often people who've come from completely outside. Who? Challenge like there's a limit in the way that we've always done things. There's a limit of how far that will take to take someone to have a completely different approach before you can have a breakthrough.

I think that conflict stems from an emotional response and one or two people or two groups of people that there's always an emotion behind every conflict. Yeah.

Yeah, it's. Because the details you can you can work out quite easily if the emotion becomes and Nicole and Natalie really, really talked about, there's a tendency to not want conflict. And because you don't want a conflict, you let it go. And when you let it go. It's still in your head and so it's Tuesday and that's when it rots and then it builds up so much pressure that eventually you have to let it explode. And where is it?

Actually, if you can say something the moment you feel it has less chance to it? And so you're telling someone so relieving the pressure of yourself. But also, you know, there is bitterness behind it.

I was just going to add in, so I've been traveling for a month, I had a really fantastic time and I came back and that my home that was a little bit of studio noise blues. And so my neighbor comes round up and she's just saying the most God awful stuff to trick of myself. I was like ten out of ten happy sets or comfortable no matter what she said, it didn't move. So I didn't engage back at all. I'd say, Oh my God, what do you want?

We got to about four rounds. We say, what do you want? And she just said, Well, could you shut it off about half an hour to say, what, about an hour? And the minute I said that because there was no conflict, she broke down in tears. She ended up asking me for a hug. Just really fucking weird. But the point being is the in conflict. It's also about our own capacity. And the bit I want to add, which I've not figured out yet, and I don't know how the fuck I'll ever figure it out, is that it's very easy to be relaxed in a warm bath.

And what I'm saying is, is that it's all very well having capacity. What about when we're stressed, tired, moving house, losing our job, then even just the capacity to deal with somebody who's not put on the potatoes that even in the meals? Ruit We can't take small things. So that's the bit I'm trying to figure out.

I think is I think it is all about capacity. Some of it is about attachment, how attached you are to an outcome. And some of it is about there is, I think, sort of training, heart rate variability. Training is very interesting because it's a measure if it's a measure of how well you deal with physical and emotional stress. And so you. I think things like meditation, trying to do things like that, are able to give you a bit of distance, which gives you more capacity to deal with stress.

Janice.

You know, basically what I realized the last one year, people, most of the times, they always go for the VIENE. And how does that person feel it's all about if it's a win win situation, one of those situations that's coming back to the communication. Communication build up to two things, one, to actively listen, so be pleasant to be want, see, hear what the person saying. We'll be understating that that's coming and what actually means that for the past?

And when you receive that message, that's when it the communication until that moment, people just. Talking to that guy and when you applying AIDS, build up the conflict and apply it, just no communication that just like, you know, the US and that's what it's the fight coming.

I think that's very interesting because I think what you brought up is when you say win, lose. Then even that's about what is winning and losing and losing means shame, winning means I'm smarter. I've got a place up in the pecking order. And I'm thinking of studies that have been done where people are offered a pay rise and they can be offered a bigger monetary pay rise than like the alternative, but it means that they got a lot less than some of their colleagues.

And so even though they're offered more money because it's relatively less than some of the other people where they work. They've refused it, and I'd rather take less money if it means that other people don't get a. And so I'm thinking back to offices I've worked in and. It becomes really frustrating to work with people when there is just about pettiness and about like I want to have this badge and I'm going to be the moments that are and when you're trying to do things and it's someone else's off all the time and they want to tell you about how hard that life is and how serious everything is and someone else wants to take credit and is like my favorite comedy ever is The Office Ricky Gervais.

And that really sums up Garreth there is just wants to be validated as his second and just. It's like Dontae said, that it's people that are hell and it's more than really is because we were all seeking something from each other and we feel when we're being manipulated, we feel when people are trying to control us and we know it's like for their own satisfaction. And so that underpins a lot of the conflict that we feel.

Don't you think that's coming back a little bit of the values? People feel they're losing their own values because of the other person's perspective. And in reality, that's never happening, just recreating that program inside of ourselves and somebody do have a problem with us. It's really my problem is you got a problem because it's not understood me not asking me.

Yeah. I mean, it makes me think of how emotionally charged politics is. And from my perspective, I don't have a lot of faith or I don't have any respect for politics. I think politics is the art of saying that you're doing something and actually not doing anything. And it's it's like the way how can you manipulate public opinion? But when you look at conservative labor in America, the Republicans and the Democrats. So, yes. So I mean, I really I don't really think the politicians make a lot of difference, because I think most of it is, is when I hold the view that it's social factors and politicians go along with what's popular, because, I mean, I look at everyone uses Hitler as the example of a dictator but Hitler.

To. Had to shelve some of these plans because it wouldn't have been popular, so even he needed the people to be along with him. And I think I think really politicians. I mean, if you look at Boris Johnson's. It's really been about trying things and then changing them when when public opinion, public, when the public when there's public outrage against them. So I think a lot of the the way that people invest their voice in a political cause to me from my perspective, is, is a waste of energy because there is much difference, because it goes this way this year.

Despite that for and that's really about believing that we need something from other people.

Yeah, it just seemed like religion and politics, a real conversation and people will get very personal. And what I've also noticed is that if you don't share the beliefs of somebody who's really ingrained religion or politics, they'll then start to use the word when you ad hominem attack, where you stop attacking their beliefs, but you attack the person. So they start to get at your character. Oh, you believe this. And you do this because they can't directly look you believe their beliefs and be intellectually honest.

And I'm not using the word intellectually honest to some sort of one term. It's it just means that can you in your head be prepared to be wrong and allow yourself that your perspective may not be the only perspective I take consideration now of your concern and you know your beliefs. You've done your research or you feel there is substantial weight that you can stand with that. But it's often when people haven't explored that, they've already looked at the open deeply.

Honest enough, you'll get the violence, maybe physical violence and then belittling, shaming or all under the umbrella of what's known as ad hominem attacks. So that's what I've observed.

Thank you. I learned a new word here. I have to say it again.

And I look in the box, I do I kind of feel like, well, just remember the Muppets at Hominum, but Hominum didn't do that. Right? And.

I think I think that brings up another point is that when I talked about the five levels of conflict, only one of them was tribe against tribe. And this is what we think of as war and. What conflict really does is it says you're different from me. And tribally. Someone who's out of our tribe is a danger. Is a fact, and so we this is why when people are in conflict, they try and gather people together and they tell them this empathy story.

And just like people in conflicts, like a couple in conflict would often go to the friends and say, all that is done. This is to have everyone say your OK is them. And it really doesn't really make any difference to the conflict, but it makes people feel better because there's something about being in. The core of conflict is the opposite of conflict, disconnection, and we want connection and we want to be one, we will be like the tribe we want to be.

You're like me. And when someone has a different point of view. It becomes frightening because you're not like me, and if you're if we're in the same tribe and you're not like me. It means either you're not really my tribe or I could be out of the tribe, and so there's a different. OK, so we talked about the different types of conflicts along the line, but there's one big issue to look at, which is from all sides, how do we deal with conflict?

And there's three main ways. So this fight, so when we on the front, we fight, we fly or we freeze and there are a couple of others, but those are the three most significant. So I think it would be interesting to look at for a minute and think about which one of those. Which one of those boxes do you fit in? What do you typically on the conflict, get aggressive and argue and fight your corner, do you take flight and remove yourself?

Or do you freeze and just no know what to do?

I'm sorry, I can't show one I'm everything, but I don't know if it's because I have them. Yeah, I thought that are borderline.

I think we'll all do different things at different times, depending on what it means and depending on which way and the context and how we feel. So there's not one that particularly stands out more to. Can you look at the same kind of relationships and relationships? Is there a pattern to how you behave in that and then other relationships? Maybe there's a different. So it depends on how you feel. OK, so should we take a quick poll?

I think you know me, though. I think everybody knows me. I will fight my corner.

I am not freezing.

It will be a good study on your side does make this. You know, I ordered I will order to the floor. Is that everything you do? Whatever it is, I'm honest to God, I will fight my corner. I have to fight my corner all my life. It is second nature and I can calm down a little bit at times. I know, but. And I do. Sometimes I the trigger that's my trigger is just to react.

But I sometimes know that I need to withdraw or to retreat a little and I will calm down. I don't just go off and and it's irrational and it's you know, I'm going to get myself into trouble because I don't know when to stop or whatever, but I'm not going to shy away from the thing. That's the point. I don't shy away from adversity.

So do you. Because I think when we're cornered, we fight. I think we all fight when we're cornered. But is that your first instinct to fight or.

Um, actually, I think a bit, but it's very quick, I don't. And then all of a sudden they just explode. It's not that OK, but if I'm required to OK, if it's if I'm under attack or I feel like I'm under attack, I respond and I will deal with the matter. I'll react. And I think I can be appropriate in some regards. But for example, if there's an emergency, I remember once my son had an issue and it's he was in pain.

He was in a lot of pain. And I immediately started to question him to look at to try and figure out what was going on. My husband froze, call the ambulance, get whatever he because this is the thought that someone could possibly die just that. And I don't freeze like that. I get very cold and calculated at that point. But if you make me angry. And you are angry with me? I respond. Likewise, in another circumstance, if I am very hurt, if you if I'm extremely hurt by something that's done, I go very quiet.

I don't lash out, but what I do is going to be probably final in what I do because it's going to be. I will take my hand, I will take my handbag up, for example. OK, OK, OK, you are going to get some of my private life and my first date, although it's not a secret, my first engagement said gentleman came and wanted me to go to Miami and become suburban housewife and to have told you that story before and was getting excited and all the rest of it.

And so. And instead of me getting into a quarrel with him, I went very, very quiet and during that time I thought through everything, everything flashed in front of me literally in a few minutes or two. And I just said calmly, well, this is it, and I took the ring off and I said. That's it. So when it is really, really deeply personal. The mad, mad person that you see with carrying on here, that's not me, I go very, very quiet and that's when you know that this is the life changing.

I have degrees of responses.

The lashing out is quite destructive in a lot of ways. Some people just express themselves getting off their chest. Fear sometimes that those bridges, from my point of view, I've got none of the above. Those that say I've got this thing. I don't know whether it's because of a tumultuous upbringing, but for some reason I don't freeze. But I go still and I'll pick the appropriate response. So if I at one point and. I didn't respond, but I just look them up and down, assess that I'm not going to take them, could they take me?

I looked around to see who was around, whether I wanted a physical altercation to happen in front of other people or somewhere else where it couldn't be seen. So I think the idea that there was another situation where somebody accused me of. Taking the DVD and, you know, obviously the first thing is no, I didn't I didn't say that my mind quickly worked it through thinking on my feet. And I said, I don't have a DVD player.

So I just killed the conflict dead. So for me, I. I don't know how. I don't know why, but I'm able to deal with things on another level that my mind will be slow, but it will come to the conclusion. And yeah, that can frustrate people as well. That can annoy people because they're looking for that stuff back and forth and what they used to do. So yeah, I'm none of the above. OK, can you clarify if you think that people pleasing avoidance is flight or freeze?

I would say. I would say that, yeah. I think. So I can identify with what someone has said in moments of real life drama, I find I become really calm and calculating. But I would typically just discount people and just kind of walk off like I don't like, say lucky, I feel like I want to change anyone's mind, but I'll just. And that can be in in relationships. It's easy to start again and see to which.

Probably the best and probably many times when I should have worked things out, it was easier just to just go. OK, so should we have a hands up or should we go to break out room first and then come back? I think perhaps if we go to a breakout rooms, we'll give everyone a chance to to consider what's their predominant. Response, what they've done in situations and none of them are ever going to be all the time because it's always going to depend on the context and how you feel.

I think all of us will fight when we call it. But some people, it's their first response. And just to kind of point, there is actually I think it's actually five, which is fight flight freeze and in his flock to fall into the fog if that form is it that way, the the just agree just and they go along with the dominant person. Is that what ponies I have looked into in great detail. But it's typically happens after a traumatic event or after suffering trauma that someone becomes conditioned.

I think that's what it is. But I wouldn't claim any institution unfold or hold full faith. Um, like a like a bee.

OK. Oh, okay. Cool.

Okay. So breakout rooms, what is your predominant style of dealing with conflicts. When is it different and how productive is it.

I should stress that again.

Okay, so what's your predominant style of dealing with conflict. When did it change? When is it different and how effective or productive is that. Right. Everyone's back. So to find who who flee before and who's frozen. So didn't want to share any insights or any thoughts or anything that struck them from that discussion.

Yeah, I don't mind, I thought it was quite interesting and I think I'll go through different stages in life on a falling to freezing flight, I think nowadays I don't know if you'd consider it. I think I try to be I try to be calm and considered. And even if I don't agree with someone else's point of view, I try to see it because we don't necessarily we don't necessarily need to conflict just because we don't agree. It's a big argument.

But we would just talk and then kind of realize that with the big things. But it comes to serious things like what Sandra was saying earlier. I can really sort of calm and consider things properly in the moment, or if it's an emergency, I can really stay calm and focused. But sometimes I find myself especially with my sister. I don't consider I mean, I'm intellectual intellectually. I can deal with this. And then I find myself arguing with her like a bloody child over the stupidest of things.

And I think it kind of comes down to. Things like being misunderstood or intention. Or like a convention, maybe.

Does anyone else find that it's very hard to change family dynamics? So what ever are you feeling? Like, whatever the dynamics have been is however much you change outside of that is still sort of pulls you back in.

I managed to change back, but was taking about 20 years, maybe even before us. Might be much longer, but it's possible as long as you understand from that, that's coming to understand a little bit more story. You can see from their perspective, you will see it differently. Your mind will be very similar in their choice. And you don't even know 99 percent of the rest of the story.

Yeah, yeah. That's that's true. Like, I can look back. So, for example, I can look back at it. I might like my parent's childhood and see how that I didn't. I suppose I didn't when I was younger. But I can see certain things. I have only found out since. And also also also notice, like a lot of people have, like when teenagers to young adults, there's that time when they have to become independent.

And so it's like they change, it changes that dynamic. And I notice from my own experience this that changes this time of conflicts where people like the child is growing up and finding themselves. And there's an element of they sort of have to reject where they come from in order to become independent.

I've also found as well that no matter how you grow and change and develop in the family context, there is a pecking order, a family tree, and there are levels and that cannot be superceded. And if someone's losing an argument, they can pull rank just like that. Now, that never goes away.

Which brings us to the last point you made in our group. And I said we should discuss it is it's triggers what to recognize what our triggers are. And family is one, because, as I say. Yeah, that that hierarchy that is established a pecking order. And I'm sure I've told you my grandfather established a pecking order, OK, and where you are in the order you expect because he had his own criteria for putting you at the head or at the bottom.

And so you kind of you know, that's how they approached you. And it just it's kind of like hell to get yourself out of that, because once you're in the group, you kind of subconsciously find your place.

It's a bit like. So gravity isn't there. Yes, but how do you I mean, culture plays a heavy part, doesn't it? I mean, the trouble I have with. Yeah, pecking order, as you say, is one thing and then who they are, it's like the mother in law, my mother in law and my daughter's mother in law, you know, I just can't get anywhere with them.

And it's also whatever you've grown up in, you think is normal until you start dating people when you start seeing a different family and then you realize they do things entirely differently. And it is a culture clash. So like in a relationship, there is always that culture clash of the two histories because different expectations don't play with as a culture clash. That's the thing I find.

Yeah. Yeah. Different values to different to different things.

And just as a quick poll, who would see themselves as a fighter, the fighters you've got to hand up and who would see themselves as a fighter and who would say that they freeze only in the way that I sort of stop and and choose where to go next. For you to slow down, not freezing. I'm I'm incapacitated. But yeah, I would say that that's deliberate. Not not frozen and is a deliberation about what your next move will be rather than freezing to me.

Freezing to panicking almost.

Yeah, well I definitely don't do that, but yeah, those were the only options on the table. So that's kind of what I was sitting in with this freezing I suppose.

OK, so we've got a couple of hands up related to common or still from the pole to common. You know, Margaret, well, I think my group, I think we all decided it really depends on the person that you're dealing with. What the situation is so you can you could become but you can be in between the three of them, so you're not particularly you're not particularly one or the other. If, for example, you've got control and people that want to tell you what to do, you could freeze because because the way you've been brought up, do you notice a different response?

Like what triggers different responses, your emotions as as you know, and actually whether you're ready for a conflict, you know what I mean? Sometimes you're caught off guard.

You're not. It's a lot of energy up in a conflict, I think.

I think the actual conflict itself, what it is about, how important it is and the nature of the conflict, the person or persons involved in the conflict, chance of resolution also contributes to it, you know, because there is no point in having an endless argument with not going any further. And that can exacerbate the conflict. It's not directly related to the issue at hand, but it's the that's how it's playing out that does add fuel to the fire, I think, because you're getting no where you're going around in circles and emotions and just getting probably more and more things or people retreating to their corners and they're not coming out.

It could go either way because nobody's listening. That's the other thing in conflict. Who listens? Who is adding value to the conversation or the issue to help with resolution? I think that's something that we overlook as well, because if you're shouting at each other. You can't hear you can't digest the message, you can't.

This is what I'm saying. I feel that that has to be a mindful approach to it, insomuch as I had an experience on the bench with someone and they were ready for conflict and I was like, we will slow down. And I took the brunt of the response, but I said, I can't think that fast. It's almost like succeeding to them. But really, it was just we're never going to discuss this. If you're just going quickly from thing to thing to thing without actually looking at each point and considering it.

So I had to slow it down. I had to almost sort of take responsibility for it or accept blame, even though it wasn't really my fault. It was just a way to kind of get it to calm down, change the approach, be mindful and to say we've got a list of problems long. Well, let's work through each one bit by bit. But if you keep hoping some something to thing to thing will never will never work out what it is, what is the problem.

So mindfulness and conflict I think is maybe we're not thinking about specific triggers when I feel something is really wrong is when I find. Like sometimes going to. If there's a situation and it's usually like it's been done to someone else, because personally. Becomes different, but it's like when you see it happening to someone else, it's like you say Trigger is like it feels like you have to. Fight the. Or like I'm thinking about when something's gone wrong.

If you bought something and you feel you've been cheated. And for me, that would be tricky to find, but generally a difference of opinion, I would be more inclined to like a message and then more fly. So I was just. I forgot what I was thinking, something that he said call triggered to do the response. Response to.

To conflict, how was it about the bit where I accepted blame all I can't go that fast is too fast and really it was going too fast. I took the responsibility again.

It was a barrel. Yes, it was. It was it was thought that it was the way you were describing it is how sometimes people get so thing like this is wrong. This is wrong and I'm going to fight and you guys like yell and it's like so sometimes these mediation conflicts between people and the point of mediation is that a conflict can cost in legal terms. Maybe it might cost one hundred thousand pounds and there's no guarantee you might be pretty sure that you've got a shop open and shut case.

But you might just get the judge on a bad day. The charges against you and you're paying your barrister solicitor like two hundred fifty quid an hour or more, and so costs quickly mount up. So mediation can be sorted out really quickly and for a few thousand. And that's really about what happens. Is this the crunch of, OK, this is how you feel, but are you willing to lose everything? And sometimes people are usually people come to that point and they realize the loss is going to be far more.

But often people are so grounded in what's wrong that they have to keep telling you. And the way that you can resolve conflict is by unraveling it. So you understand what's in someone's story. And it comes out and you can put together the details and it's like, what? What do you want? And usually people want something emotional as much as financial. But often people become so stark that they just can't keep telling you and keep telling you that.

Like I was saying, sometimes it's being lost in the story. And the the value of conflict is it's a way out of our story because we are trapped in our own stories by every problem is comes from that basic conflict between who we are and the story that we live in. Why don't you think this is a little bit more about coming from different perspectives? It's like the humans suspicious. Are we always good to find the peace? We are always good to find things what we need to fix, but eventually, does it require it or just change the subject or change the perspective and just do differently?

It's like when you're playing chess game, how do you do? To changing that strategy, that simple does it doesn't mean to improve just for that table game, it just doesn't work and that's OK. That's no problem. That's no problem behind ever. When you see Coplan people, McCully's got these anxiety feelings, and that's causing that funny feeling, you also have a situation where there are people who understand your makeup and they manipulate your your your your reactions.

They know what they know. You're trigger points. They know what will get you riled up. They know what will get you excited or upset or whatever. And in a sense, it's like you also need to learn how to deal with those kinds of people. Before you even get to the subject matter, the subject matter is is secondary is how to deal with those kinds of people so they don't get under your skin.

So what are you saying? That the solution to conflict is empathy?

Well, I think you have to understand there's not just empathy because empathy. Because when you understand someone else's point of view, but I think you both have to understand each other and. It's taking. Taking the personal and emotional animal out of that, so it's about empathy and then it's about. On the empathy, understanding each other, and then it's about really being honestly, really honest and talking the same intellectual honesty, and I think it is about you have to look at what's true.

So in the conflict, you have to reveal what's hidden or not really arguing about what do I really want and that. Knowing that. Is the pathway to resolving conflict, because if you're arguing about your pizza or Chinese, what you're really arguing about is about who gets to say. And because you've picked films for the last three weeks, I'm going to have my say over the takeaway or is it about I've done a list for you. I want to make sure that you care enough about me to let me win is about winning.

So what's it really about? Because the way out of conflict is you have to look at strip away what's really true from what's part of the story, the most emotional reaction. And then how can you get what you want? Like, how can you get the core base of what you both want? Or how can you find a way if you can't both have what you want? Didn't you say earlier on the conflict is because you don't have the resources to give them both what they want?

Would that be a case then of having to agree to disagree as and go your separate ways or.

OK, so often it's about a creative solution. So let's say if it's a romantic relationship. What do you really want from a romantic relationship?

Sexy time, you tried to break the atmosphere and then no, I was just thinking that was the answer to that question. Yeah.

So what do you want? Or emotional things. But we fight over maybe physical earth. So there's no but there's no limit to like the feeling of love, the feeling of pain or the feeling of being valued, respected, seemed understood. All of those things. There's no limits. That's not finite resource. Our arguments, our arguments are about what we have or whatever. But underneath that argument is really about do you really care about me? When you listen to me, you give me we be there for me.

Do I matter enough? So in a relationship is about that. So if it's a conflict outside of a relationship like is it more so like it's like a company or fighting by someone else and giving you something and you've got a contract, then often there's another way around it, as in something else might be more important to you. The only way that you know how you can resolve the conflict is by really getting to the truth of. What is it people really want?

And even if it's a finite resource of this food or money is really there's something underneath that is only a few cool things that we really want. So food is about what is about comfort is about emotional satisfaction. It's about nutrition or something like that. So it's really understanding. And that is what the value of conflict is, real clarity over what we really want.

And we get some clarity when we're willing to be aware to look underneath, because if we just keep on arguing about the superficial stuff, that won't get any better.

Yeah, if we. If we. So if you look at wars that are unresolved, it's because they're not willing to be honest about it, the conflict goes on for years, decades, centuries. Because no one's really. They don't trust each other. Or they don't open up to what do they really want?

Yeah, I don't know if this is appropriate, but kind of throw in the mix. It's not like I used to say appropriate stuff anyway, but I saw this meme and it really hit home and it says it's black and white, but. It says people treat you how they feel about you, and that really, really struck a chord, right, but breaks my heart. I was like, wow, that's incredible. And I think that our arguments often can be a resistance to that, knowing that if somebody is you come in and you sort of start the back of the head or something, or you chose intimacy and they just burp and carry on watching football if it's your husband or whatever, you know, that's how they feel about you.

They're more interested in something else and they are you. And then therefore an argument starts later because of that single incident, because they've expressed how they felt about that person. Now, you might you can argue this and you can sit down and say, well, maybe they were tired or they had a bad day. But actually, also there is something in the holds meaning. So, yeah, I don't know if anybody that resonates with anybody else.

I've found that quite powerful that people will treat you how they feel.

There's something else to that. I think how I feel about you is how I feel about me. That a lot of times it's a reflection of that there's always projection that we project onto others what is going on inside of us. So because when you think about it, if someone is disdainful, lacking respect or something like that, it's whatever they do to you. They did ten times worse to themselves. It is that little voice inside themselves is going to do that to them because really anyone with self-respect and self value and all of that stuff and feeling good about themselves is going to at least be polite or at least be considerate.

But if they if they aren't able to be there, then is because they don't have enough in themselves to.

That's so true what you say. It's basically coming back to the Lord more. You give what you will get. So if you order to want to get something to do similar things, that's the only way how you can get it. And that's simple. So if you're giving for the customer, what do you want people to see all the way back? So if you are going to them, you will get the argument. So somebody has to stop that.

And that's you. She is the person who can keep calm and remember for that. And that's one of the highest value. And you just teach that point. It's really you have to give what you want. It's a cause and consequence.

And I think one of the real challenges is someone has to go first. It's like if you look at the parenting relationship is generally like it's generally because parents have loved their child first and they've given their child unconditional love, that there's such a strong bond. And that's different from. Almost any other relationship lobbyists are believing now in unconditional love. You made some changes.

Hello. Someone has to go first. Are you saying that one has to be willing to be loving to the other? One says, yeah, yeah, I think we have to. So I wouldn't say so. Yeah, I think we have to greet people unconditionally. I think there is some point, I think. If we love unconditionally, it means we accept anything. We can love the person, but not stay in the relationship. It's. But I think we have to.

Because what the usual problem in the relationship is, people are tentative and I like the tirade and then the slightest negative reaction is they react to that. And so, like, love is built between two people and it's built because both people give to the relationship and giving to the relationship. That's where the well of love is built. So if no one is, then. It becomes is transactional here to give us well, it does, but it has to be consistent from both parties, you know, sort of you all over each other one day, the next day, you don't even speak to each other or touch each other, you know?

Yeah. Cervical cancer, the patient as well, phoning or messaging, especially when you start a new relationship. The consistency, the regular communication is very, very important. And meeting up with each other.

Yes. If people come to a relationship with anxiety and when the when someone seems to not be interested or whatever in any vacuum will make up the story and the story will play out from Lorenzo.

And the giving has to be reciprocated, doesn't it?

Because otherwise that is the danger of unconditional love, is that you love someone who abuses you and treats you terribly and. So some some people misunderstand that and get into terrible relationships because they think that's what they have to do. But it has to be some some level of reciprocity, Sibila.

Hey, I just had a thought when Carl said people treat you how they feel about you. Thank you for sharing that. I feel like, you know, throughout school life, our teachers and lecturers teach us that we should treat people how we want to be treated.

But in reality, when you grow up, you realize you should treat people how they want to be treated because everybody's different.

Yeah, yeah. I think, like the Five Love Languages is huge here, but I think it is just the first level is that we're all different and it's about. Like, not we're not going to find five boxes that works as a general awareness, but there's so much more to it. And I think one of the key things, we want the relationships to be understood. And feel that someone cares enough to understand.

I think sometimes we don't put the message across clear enough, we're not doing it properly because it's it's how we communicate to the other person. Are we getting the message across in the right way? And in a clear sense, we're not always clear. Sometimes, you know, even if we tell ourselves, honestly, you know so much what you want to see. So obviously that's not true for yourself, but sometimes it isn't clear for ourself. Last time I wrote the email that I said I was a little bit overwhelmed and everybody and I wrote almost as dead, like mentally I overhand Stateway beat up on that.

And they to me for about it. The person was talking to me and I was like, wow, they actually heard me and I didn't even realize they say that. That's when, you know, you got pass the silently screaming for attention, we silently see what we want, another person not picking up.

That goes back to what was said earlier, that it's not what we think that we should be doing to somebody. It's what we are seeing. We need to learn to see and to recognize things in other people to react to that and not have a recipe that we think that we ought to follow in how we behave with with other people. Because as everybody's agreed, we are all different. We have different experiences. We have different triggers. We have different reactions.

We have we bring all sorts of experiences to the table. And until you understand that about the individual, you don't really know that person. You have not really got into that person's core essence, so to speak. And that in itself takes some that takes an awareness of of yourself. You need to have that patience, but you also need to have those tools to understand what you're seeing. And I think a lot of us, we see things in others, but we.

And sometimes we don't get it, we don't understand what it means, what it is, we sometimes don't even have the vocabulary to ask the appropriate questions, to try to understand it. And so we make wrong cause I mean, we react differently inappropriately or we. We ignore sometimes we ignore the signals, as Yunus is saying, that went up and was recognized. Sometimes the person is in front of us and giving us signals, but we. We don't recognize it because that's not what we're looking for.

We don't learn how to spot those things.

Is this school is all about logic and reason and reciting stuff, and yet we're so emotionally underdeveloped.

I'm going to throw this in the mix, which is at one point I was getting involved in online debates and politics and religion and everybody has the view. But here's the rub, because it was a click and a group of minds and people, it sometimes got to a point where it was less about the intellectual property of the argument books, the other person saying something that would book somebody, i.e. perhaps triggering them. So what that developed to me was a skill that no matter what the other person said, I could hold my color.

I would be able to just stand in my place because I knew that they were saying something, because they knew my beliefs and my stance on things, that they would purposefully say something to wind me up. So that's really helped me in in conflicts, knowing that people will almost say anything to get a rise out of you sometimes. So with that in mind, I to say this in a belligerent fashion, go fuck sake. We can't be screaming at each other.

We can't we can't be shouting, cursing and cussing people down. Because, like Rob said, it's what you really want. But all you're doing by that is saying I want to hurt you. That's all it boils down to when really. So where's that going to get? That's war. And if war is what you want than most likely, there's a lot of people what you get. So it's finding a break out of that. And if you haven't got those skills, you're going to be warned for the rest of your life.

And I guess that's how some people live. They want to go through life that way. But that's a hard, hard road to go down. And there's not really any fucking what is enough. So, yeah, conflict is maybe just starting from a respectful place, but sometimes conflict arises because people want to deflect attention from themselves now or just dynamically.

Yeah, yeah.

There is that thing like talking about there's all these types of archetypes like in every office and there is always the attention seeker is just to find drama in any situation. And I suppose really, when you think about it, it comes down to childhood. Sometimes people are. Not given attention and negative attention is what colleagues said that I read about when somebody is you, that's the inability to regulate their emotions about them.

OK, OK, so to recap. How effective is. Do you think your response to conflict is that? So in terms of dealing with conflict. How well do you think you deal with it now?

So the situation again, still, what's the intention behind other parts, because if you need to protect more people in order to one person, just remove from the place, you might need to make tough decisions because as you know look mean, that's part of your job. Unfortunately, you only can as long look after one person. As long as I keep saying you can take the horse to water, but you cannot drink.

But I suppose it is really about like sometimes you're in a situation where you can't change someone and that's that. I think the first part is recognizing you can't pick the person who can change everyone. It is just in some conflict isn't going to get resolved. Some conflict is going to get messy. But it's about how how can you be how can you deal with it with honor so that you feel good about it after?

Is it if if the opposite of conflict is connection and connections, what you're seeking, that needs to be both parties willing to move towards each other. So if the other party isn't moving towards you, then they're supposed to think there will be no resolution. But that's when you would agree to disagree. Just leave it as is or walk away then.

Yeah, yeah. I think for me, relationships and conflict is it's really about just getting to the truth of the situation because there's even solution. There is the relationship is going to work. There's no but the quicker that you can get to the truth of that, the quicker you can create the relationship and the conflict or move on because you can't some conflict is that you can't resolve it in the same way that some relationships are doomed because it's set in someone's expectations, their assumptions, and the way that they're going to deal with stress, with whatever challenges happen.

Many people have unresolved issues or they've suffered with trauma and accept past experiences, I suppose, get in the way so that you can't really resolve that conflict. And then often quite relationships like that because they need help. And it's often very clear.

Yeah. Yes.

Damaging yourself by staying in a relationship, it's harmful for yourself.

He becomes. There's a I suppose this is set boundaries of you do as much as you can and then recognize is not your responsibility past that, but it's also about tolerance and acceptance as well.

I think a lot of us are very tolerant and sometimes we just have to accept that's the way it is. That's how that person is and that's it. And you've got to try and work with it rather than against it. I think a lot of people just don't have the patience. They just don't try.

Yeah. And a lot of people I think generally there's an expectation, there's an anxiety about getting into relationships and anxiety at work and anxiety. I'll never be loved. And that makes people more emotional, which makes it harder to deal with. And so really what we say about most things, it's about having the capacity, capacity, the mitigating factor.

Carl, when you said that is so true to people, go in with these doubts and Faison's context, but I don't know if this is actually true about myself. I see myself. Do you remember a cartoon called The Animaniacs? No, it was like Warner Brothers and this little girl, and she's got a haircut with the fringe and she picks up cats and dogs and she's like, I'm going to love you and squeeze you in. And I feel like I'm not that I'll go in with just ridiculous optimism if I'm really into the person, not every person I'm like that would.

But if I'm really it ticks my boxes and I feel happy and confident. This is on body, mind and soul level. I click with I have that kind of childlike, overenthusiastic go for it because I. Yeah, but perhaps it's somewhere in the middle, but definitely not on the other side of pessimism because that kimmet that you start seeing things that are not that which is true of the other side as well. But like you start thinking, yeah, you start seeing certain behaviors in life or anyway I'll leave it there.

But I think it's true and I think you have to. I think it's about. It's when he. So why am I doing this? Why is it like dogma? Is it a lack of awareness or is it an emotional. Like, what's driving this? I think that that is really. On both sides is understanding the assumptions and the expectations and the emotions, and it's being free of dogma, of ignorance and emotion, like emotional response. I don't mean not being emotional, but being driven by emotional.

And yeah, so when we can shoot days away, we get the truth out of both of both sides. And that's really what's going to determine whether it works or not.

Capacity relate to this again.

OK, so so your ability to be able about your emotional capacity, because if you're. Like when you when you said the fight flight or freeze response are really about what do you do under stress? And the point at which you get stressed is a fresh out determined by your emotional capacity. So if you are really unattached and you're able to you're really mindful when you're able to stop and think about things like to talked about being able to have that emotional distance, then you can respond more rationally and more appropriately, more effectively when you feel threatened, when you feel this is really threatened in whichever way.

That you respond to more emotionally, which is going to be fight flight or freeze. Does that answer the question?

That makes sense. Thanks.

OK, all right, so if we go around, anyone's got any thoughts or perspectives that they want to share or. Or whatever they feel comes to mind. That can. Share with everyone else, it sounds like you think the solution to conflict is empathy and understanding. And that usually isn't about the superficial things, but just one in the can. But look at that bid for a thing to turn towards the person of.

Yeah, because really what we want. We want we want to be like, obviously, we won't say we want whatever, but in our society, most of us have enough food, we have enough water, we have shelter and stuff like that. So what we're all really seeking is status, love, understanding, compassion. If you would look like if aliens can download the Instagram and Facebook, it would seem that is the trend is that you have it's the six pack that you have or the car or all of this stuff.

Which is like popular culture. But. The reason we want certain brands, you know, like your kids, the like, they need certain and so out of touch Supreme's and stuff like that is because they feel that makes them important. That makes them gives them value. Might be so. And so it seems to be superficial. So if you look at most people's goals, is to be famous and even look at why people want to be famous.

Because if you look at fame, right. Confucius said that famous description of friction being famous means loads of people height you. But people don't think about that like everyone wants to be Bonzai is because they want to be adored, they want to be on a stage with one hundred thousand people screaming their name, because that will make them feel important. That will make them feel loved. And on a lesser scale, we want the flash car, the big house and all that stuff to feel important because really everything, all the physical stuff.

Well, the status is symbols for what we really want, because what we really want is an emotional because at the end of the day, my money has no real value. If there was no one else and only have lost money, but it would be in the paper. But what we want is the feeling so. So, yeah, ultimately it's about understanding what is the feeling that people want? Like the thing that they're fighting for. What does it symbolize?

And once we understand that we're able to work out conflict, if someone were to share that or we don't, we're not there to listen. We can't really work the conflict.

When you say the feeling you need to be seen or heard and to feel validated.

Yeah, and loved, yeah, and important, yeah, all of that stuff, it's Maslow's theories, isn't it, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah, I'll look into that. That's what we need.

It's a win. Is Representative. You want to explore this particular like. But yeah. I mean. Ultimately, we need survival, so like if you hold someone's head underwater, you seem to find how much they value their. But so we need that more, but, yeah, we need all the connection of that as well. And some conflict, though.

Sorry, it's me again, just one final thing, I mean, we're talking about relationships and things, and I mean, I come from an Asian background and people have arranged marriages. Unfortunately, my no, I didn't work with a lot of problems as to why we ended up apart, but there's lots and lots of arranged marriages that work. And where that starts from is that they're often strangers. Some of them don't even know each other. My mom and dad and my grandparents only saw each other on the wedding day, you know, and it's about commitment.

If you make that promise, I'm going to make it work and that loyalty, then they come. And this is how a lot of these arranged marriages work. And I admire these people either in these great arranged marriages. And it's because they're just committed that they they want to make it work and they have to make it work. And they do.

Statistically, arranged marriages are more successful than chosen marriages. And some of it is the expectations. And because there's a whole cultural story behind it. And so, yeah, it can be. Can you give me my ex-husband? We've been apart for 20 years. We were married for 15 terms and we're good friends for 20 years on the good friends. But still the problems that were in the way, the issues, the family, the culture and so on that got in the way of.

Yeah, those kind of things that got in the way that affected our marriage. But otherwise, like I said, you know, we get on OK, I think.

Is that reciprocation and. Both parties are willing to put in the. Which is it? You got the reciprocation and you got motions for balance.

Yeah, yeah. And when I say relationships are set on, it's set by the Constitution. That's really what I mean. How much leeway is there and how much willingness is there to to go deeper and understand? Well, thank you, everyone. We met I think we managed we managed tonight without any conflict.

Just that you like.

So next next week. So, yeah. Haven't put the. Topic for next week, but I think it's going to be conversation. Which is really how how do we mediate conflicts? OK, we'll have a great week, everyone, and see you next week.

Thank you for everybody bye.