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#212 - Stepping Back to Heal with Sam Murrell
Episode 21228th September 2022 • Happy Mama Movement with Amy Taylor-Kabbaz • Amy Taylor-Kabbaz
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It can take some real reprogramming in order to stop, slow down and listen. Motherhood sparks a drive which often sees up pursue new adventures, businesses, lifestyles - the true beauty and complexities of matresence. It's that internal struggle when matresence is activated - part of us that is ambitious, focused, ready and rearing to go while alongside we are a growing into motherhood while healing, growing, grieving and becoming and simply trying to catch our breath. This raw and honest conversation today shows that sometimes stepping back is completely okay. Listen as Amy is joined with Sam Murrell and they chat about:

  • Postpartum anxiety, stress and desires, even as your life appears to be supported and comfortable to the outside world.
  • Giving ourselves permission to step back, heal and accept that seasons will allow for different adventures to create their own paths.
  • The pressure and responsibility we feel for little humans and how that can impact.
  • The desire to reach many and shout to the whole world that it's okay, yet sometimes we may be only able to talk to one person because we are in the trenches and doing the work at different moments.

The divine vulnerability and honesty of this conversation helps to normalise what it looks like to be in the process and wholeness of matresence.

To get in touch or find out more about Sam, you can visit her on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/mothers.hood/

There needs to be a change in the way mothers are valued and seen in our society. We are here to spread the whispers of Matrescence together. Find out more and receive your Matrescence map here https://www.amytaylorkabbaz.com/matrescence/

Transcripts

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Welcome to the Happy Mama Movement Podcast.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I'm Amy Taylor-Kabbaz.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I would like to start by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Aura nation

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

on which this podcast is recorded, as the traditional custodians of this land.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And, as this podcast is dedicated to the wisdom and knowledge of motherhood, I

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

would like to acknowledge the mothers of this land, the elders, their wisdom, their

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

knowing and my own elders and teachers.

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Welcome Mamas.

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Today, I'm starting this podcast a little differently than I usually would.

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Usually, I record the interview and I come back later when it's all nice and

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quiet and I've gathered my thoughts.

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And I'm clear on what I want to say about this podcast interview.

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And I record that separately.

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But tonight, I wanted to just press record as it is.

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I have my son in the background.

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I have a puppy that we've had for two weeks.

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And the reason I wanted to do this differently was because the conversation

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I'm about to have with the beautiful Samantha, who you're about to meet, is all

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about the balance between this beautiful new version of ourselves that has been

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birthed through matresence and the reality of where we are with motherhood.

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So disclaimer, right from the beginning, you're gonna hear

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little noises in the background.

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My son is playing his Xbox and you'll hear the little click, click, click, click

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clicks, and you'll hear my puppies, little tinkling, um, you know, around his neck.

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I may have to be interrupted, whatever it is.

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And usually the old Amy, the ABC broadcaster would have hated the

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quality of this audio, the background noise, but actually the conversation

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we're having here is exactly this.

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It's all about being real about what this looks like to be so passionate

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about something because of what you've experienced through motherhood and

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still being in the season of motherhood.

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So Sam.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for coming and joining me in this chaos in my house right now.

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Oh, it's an honor to be here.

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Thank you, Amy.

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So, I think the best place for us to start

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is to explore how you came to hear about matresence and what that awakened in you.

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Well um I first heard matresence when

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my daughter was around six months old.

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My sister had sent me.

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I think it was my sister that sent me the Motherkind podcast

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and Alexandra Sacks was on it.

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It kind of was like, oh yeah, incredible.

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That makes sense.

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I, I have some understanding now.

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Up to that point I had had very, very intense postnatal anxiety, extreme panic.

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Um, and even now, sometimes when I think about that time, it was a, I was, it

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was a really terrifying place sometimes.

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She was around 10 weeks old when the panic really set in, but I know the

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build up to that were the contributors.

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So I had a traumatic birth.

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I won't go into that now I had birth trauma.

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And then the adrenaline is already kicking in your body.

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Um, I did have that beautiful bubble when she was born.

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The oxytocin, I did feel that absolute joy and love for her.

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And it was incredible.

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And then I was also very heightened, very, there was lots of adrenaline

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and, um, then the sleep deprivation kicked in that was partly because I

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had a newborn, but partly because I was feeling anxious, I couldn't sleep.

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And they just laid and laid and laid and obviously being hormonal and

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this, this beautiful, beautiful baby.

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My daughter's called Luna.

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This little beautiful massive dark hair arrived into the world.

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And the huge responsibility I felt for her, of course, as a mother,

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really, it almost slammed into me.

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It was the whoa, oh my goodness.

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I am responsible for this baby.

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And knowing what I know now, that pressure is so intense now because

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it was once supposed to be shared amongst many, many, many of us in our

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villages by through ally parenting.

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And that is, you know, the mother's role is still key, but, you know, I, I felt

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so responsible for everything and I just thought, how am I going to do a thing?

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How am I going to be a good mum for her?

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How do I do that?

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So, I know that was, that was really, I had this constant negative narrative in

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my head of you're doing, you are a rubbish mum, you're a bad mum, you're lazy.

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Um, why aren't you more energetic?

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I mean, all the crazy, you know, I think about battle now

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and, and how bullying that was.

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So I was a really, I was feeling very insecure.

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Very hard on myself.

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I thought there was something wrong with me.

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I thought everybody, I mean, don't get me wrong.

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I, I understood that people, you know, felt tired and, and, but I just

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felt I was, there was something wrong with me that I was struggling more

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than anybody and, and there was, I needed to do better and work harder.

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Um, so by six months I actually did see a counselor in that time and, and

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did help me with some C B T therapy.

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And that helped me with my sleep.

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And that did help me get on an even keel.

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But it was very much, I thought, okay, I'm feeling a bit better.

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And then I'd kind of not regress back.

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That's probably not the right word, but kind of bouncing around between the two

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and just feeling really unsteady, really isolated in my, you know, in my thoughts.

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Um, I had really supportive family, so I kept thinking, why can't I do this?

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Why am I finding it so hard?

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I have a really supportive husband.

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We're financially stable.

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My family don't live too far away.

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I have lovely friends and yeah, so it was all, um, adding to that.

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So I heard the, podcast, um, by Alexandra and I thought,

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yeah, God, this makes sense.

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And I'm saying to my friends, but then I felt like I kept slipping backwards.

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And when I say that I kept feeling like I, I understood about matresence

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but actually it didn't really sink in.

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And then fast forward to hearing you on, on the Motherkind podcast.

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And that was the beginning of:

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That's right.

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So Luna, would've been about 18 months by that point and I heard you on

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there and I straightaway bought your book and I just felt so seen by you.

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So seen, so validated.

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Um, and this isn't to disregard Alexandra Sack at all, because she is incredible.

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And she's brought it into our consciousness as well, but just

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The way that you brought it into my consciousness was different.

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Hers was a lot more theoretical.

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The way that you described, you said I've got three kids and I

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still was finding it, I didn't understand what was happening to me.

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And then when you said you found matresence.

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And I just thought, oh my goodness, I don't have to have it all figure out

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my baby's 18 months old and I still don't have to have it all figure out.

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Amy's got three kids and it just was that that personal story

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really, really pulled me in.

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So, and then it kind of all made sense.

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And things began to change.

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There's a few things that I wanna pull out of here.

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First of all, I really want to acknowledge that intensity of those first few

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months and that sense of responsibility.

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Sam, it's really interesting, I was researching something for the new round

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of Mama Rising just last week and there was a study out of, uh, I think it was

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Belgium in:

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And usually in previous years in previous studies and experiences.

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This is it, we're gonna have noises in the background.

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And we'll talk more about that in a moment.

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But in previous experiences and, and research into motherhood burnout,

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it was attached to a difficult birth or a sick child, or a problem

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at work or a marriage stress.

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d this revolutionary study in:

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that actually burnout in mothers comes from this deep sense of

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responsibility for this human being.

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And the second main reason mothers feel burnout is because of the guilt they

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feel that they're not doing it right.

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And when I saw that last week, I thought that is the experience

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of every single mother I have spoken to over the last 10 years.

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Previously, we used to put it on an outside experience.

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It's because you had a bad birth it's because your marriage broke down.

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It's because of the pandemic.

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It's because of all of these things.

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And yeah, they're extra stresses.

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But what I loved about this research, it showed that there is an underlying,

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ongoing pressure that we feel as modern mothers around the responsibility

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we feel for this little human on our own, even with a parent, even with

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a co-parent, even with grandparents, even with the great community.

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And the guilt, we feel that we're not doing it right.

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How does that feel like when you think about that now?

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The first thing, actually, it made

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me feel, it made me feel emotional for that new mother that I was,

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because I just think if, you know, and, and for all the other mothers

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that feel that it makes me emotional.

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Cause I think it doesn't have to be like this.

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Um, it's it.

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Just yeah.

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Sends shivers down my spine because I just think it doesn't need to be like this.

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And it's such a huge, huge life transition and we just don't honor it

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and everything is put on the mother.

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And I just think once these things come into the consciousness, these, you know,

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we have to have these studies don't we, because the scientific world and

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academic world almost need to prove these things for people to, to believe it.

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Right.

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Rather than believe in the mothers.

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Okay.

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We've got some scientists and, and researchers telling

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us and it must be true.

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Such a good point.

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Yes, exactly.

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Ask any mother.

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And that would've said that anyway, but

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Yeah.

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it is that acknowledgement.

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It's that acknowledgement, isn't it?

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That on its own, let alone traumatic births, let alone pandemics, let

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alone, whatever else happens.

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Modern motherhood in its isolation, is depleting, its anxiety inducing.

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And so when you began to understand that when you began to see that what you've

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been through is not your fault, but instead the consequence in a way of the

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culture and society that we live in around motherhood, what began to change for you?

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It just enabled me to give myself, first

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of all, the compassion that I needed to start on that journey of healing

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what's happened and to step forward.

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Because I felt like I was almost stuck in this cycle of blaming myself and

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bullying myself and criticising myself.

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Um, it made me realise that the inner critic you call the inner mean mama.

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It really made me realise how loud that voice was and how, how I'd always had it.

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So it made me so much more self aware of what was the narrative

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in my head, how that was affecting me on a day to day basis and how

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I don't have to listen to it.

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It's not true, don't get me wrong.

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It's still a work in progress and there are, you know, I, I have come so far, but

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the conditioning obviously is still there.

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And I, you know, there are times when I do have to work a little

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bit harder just to remember that.

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But those, those times are less and they're less intense.

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I can reach out and I have the language to talk about it, which helps.

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But yeah, the self compassion, was such a huge part of that.

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And then on understanding, and then that enabled me to connect with others.

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Because it, it stopped me feeling so isolated.

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Once I, once I realised that it wasn't just me so much shame,

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the shame lifted and enabled me to connect with others better.

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So that was the first step.

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And what I really would love to

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explore with you is that when we hear this description of

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what we've been experiencing.

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When we finally get the word, when we finally understand that it's not

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our fault and see the bigger picture.

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I have seen this over and over and over again in the last few years of

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women who then train as Mama Rising coaches like you did, because there's

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something that activates in us.

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That because we had such an intense experience and felt that

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it could have been different.

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If we had done it differently, if we'd had known, if the people around me had

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known, if the system was different.

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I need to be a part of the change.

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And this is the thing I really want to explore with you because over and over

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and over again, the women who end up doing this work are the ones that have

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experienced the pain of it themselves.

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so that's what happened with you, right?

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Sure, Ex exactly that.

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Um, I.

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I was gonna say, I think I have a stubbornness in me.

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I think if you asked my husband, he would say you definitely

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have a stubbornness within you.

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Um, a stubbornness within me to not just accept something for what it is,

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because I didn't want to look back on this time with my daughter and, and

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have regrets of, of not doing my best.

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Um, that's the perfectionist with me and, and all of that, but I wanted it to be

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the best experience that it could be.

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And I was kind of it, I think it's almost an anger in there of like, I,

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I, and that was part of the fire in my belly of, I want to change this.

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Um, and, and, and I don't want other mothers to go through this.

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Why, why are mothers going through this?

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And I think that.

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We know that, you know, when, when we become, even obviously matresence could

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start preconception or conception.

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Or, you know, obviously there's different, potentially different starting points,

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but I just had, I, I can't remember who who said this, but, I really, felt

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this I went from I and me to we and us.

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And when I say that it was, you know, we are trained as young girls to, you

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know, especially in the school that I went to, you know, very academic

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and university and da get your job in profession, work really hard.

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Um, you've gotta be independent.

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You gotta look after yourself.

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And then obviously motherhood is so such a different experience.

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And I really, really felt that transition.

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Um, and

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And.

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just, yeah, lots of, lots of

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philosophising about things.

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And, just that real intensity to want to help other mothers.

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I suppose, almost that mama bear feeling for other mothers, you know,

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not just for my daughter, but that kind of collective of wanting to

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put my arms around other mothers.

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And, I actually saw a mother yesterday in a cafe near to where I work

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and I work in the city of London.

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So obviously it's quite kind of professional and kind of masculinity.

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And she was in a cafe with her baby and, um, just saw her face.

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And I mean, you know, this is me surmising.

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She being, I just looked at her and I just.

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And her baby was very small and I just looked at her and I thought

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you look exactly how I used to feel.

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Um, and I didn't get the opportunity.

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I, I normally I often try and sort of just say something like, oh,

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you're doing a great job or something just so they know that someone can

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see them, their breastfeeding was breastfeeding in the middle of a cafe.

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And I just have this need to kind of hug.

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I try not to hug random people, but, you know, embrace people.

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Um, yeah, it just really lit that fire in me.

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And this is the, this is why I

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really wanted to talk to you.

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Because so often this is what I see and hear.

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And it was the same for me, once I realised what had happened to me, I

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needed to go and do something about it.

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But there's also an element.

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Don't you think, Sam, of what I've been through needs to have had purpose.

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Mm.

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Yeah.

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I think, I think there's healing and

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I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

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I think there's an element of healing in going through the motions of

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understanding what happened and then being activated to change it.

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That helps us as women who have felt wronged in some way.

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To make a peace with that.

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Like if I went through that, then there has to be a purpose from this.

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And that's been a big part of what I've seen women want to do with this work.

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You know, now I know I need to make sure others know too,

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which is a beautiful intention.

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Mm.

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Yes.

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I definitely would agree with that.

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The understanding of why I felt like that and also, yes,

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like why, why did this happen?

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Why did I, why did I feel this so intensely?

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Why couldn't it have been different?

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And this, um, I, you know, I had an unrealistic expectation of what it

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would be like, this floating around on a bubble of , you know, ah, you know,

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Oxytocin

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shining lights and everything.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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I thought it would be like that 24/7.

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And, um, I have made peace with that, that part of my mothering journey

-:

00:18:04

and whilst yes, of course, an easier entrance into motherhood would've

-:

00:18:09

been lovely that wasn't my journey.

-:

00:18:13

And, and then that set me off on this road.

-:

00:18:15

So yes, I do.

-:

00:18:16

Um, I do believe in that part of our stories and our experiences

-:

00:18:23

are there for a purpose and, and are there to help, help others.

-:

00:18:27

We need to tell our stories.

-:

00:18:30

Yeah, but then it kicks into a business.

-:

00:18:38

It kicks into something that, um, is a drive and a passion and an ambition.

-:

00:18:47

and it kicks into something that instead of being for our own healing

-:

00:18:53

and our own activation and our own desire, it can at times feel like,

-:

00:19:06

well, I actually don't even know.

-:

00:19:07

I don't even want to say what it feels like.

-:

00:19:09

I would love for you to finish that sentence.

-:

00:19:11

Explain to us, how this desire to be a part of the change evolved for you.

-:

00:19:21

Mm.

-:

00:19:22

Well, I dunno whether it's part of my personality as well.

-:

00:19:27

Um, or a combination of the two of the drive of the fire.

-:

00:19:30

That's that's ignited in me, but I, um, I have to, when I take something on.

-:

00:19:38

I do it like I'm gonna do it and I have to do it with intensity.

-:

00:19:43

And so for me, it wasn't just enough to, to understand, um, about matresence for

-:

00:19:49

myself and that filtering through to my friends and, and kind of people in my

-:

00:19:54

community, perhaps that I, that I, I see and come into contact with, it was a, it

-:

00:19:59

is a drive in me to, to want to do more because I'm like, that's not enough.

-:

00:20:03

That's not enough mothers.

-:

00:20:04

That's not, it's, it's not going to have big enough impact because, we need to,

-:

00:20:09

we have so far to go to change this.

-:

00:20:12

And this is, uh, something that you always say, pain pushes vision pulls.

-:

00:20:17

And I remember when I felt that and I just, I couldn't fight against it.

-:

00:20:23

It was pulling me to do my business wherein that I could reach more Mamas.

-:

00:20:30

Um, and that led me to do my podcast and coaching and and all of that.

-:

00:20:35

But yeah, it was, it was yeah.

-:

00:20:38

A drive because it wasn't enough for me just to know.

-:

00:20:42

And you know, that's not saying if you don't want to do businesses, it's,

-:

00:20:44

you know, it's just a personal thing.

-:

00:20:46

But for me personally, I was like, ah, I wanna scream it to everybody.

-:

00:20:53

No, I actually wanna take a moment and

-:

00:20:54

really acknowledge how common this is.

-:

00:20:58

Because it's like almost part of the Rite of passage, I think.

-:

00:21:06

That we go through these really challenging times

-:

00:21:10

and we think it's our fault.

-:

00:21:12

And then we realise that there's a whole thing we didn't know.

-:

00:21:17

And in that knowing we forgive ourselves and then something is activated in us that

-:

00:21:25

says it should never have been like that.

-:

00:21:28

And I want to be a part of the change.

-:

00:21:29

I mean, surely that's what the Dali Lama meant when he said the world

-:

00:21:34

will be saved by the Western woman.

-:

00:21:37

In the sense of, we as women and as mothers cannot experience something

-:

00:21:44

like this, that we then realise can be different and do nothing.

-:

00:21:49

If we do nothing, nothing changes.

-:

00:21:53

So what I really want to celebrate in this podcast conversation with you is that

-:

00:21:59

activation in you and how that played out.

-:

00:22:06

But then also the acknowledgement that right now in this season,

-:

00:22:11

maybe I can't shout it to the whole world and that's okay.

-:

00:22:17

And that's why, you know, I started the podcast with my kids

-:

00:22:20

in the background because it's the same with me on a daily basis.

-:

00:22:24

I, I wanna shout this to the world, but also maybe I can only talk

-:

00:22:30

to one person about this tonight with my kids in the background.

-:

00:22:33

And I know that that's been a challenge as it is for all of us, women who,

-:

00:22:41

who want to do something who have a plan and a vision and a desire.

-:

00:22:50

And yet we are still in the trenches of motherhood.

-:

00:22:55

We're still in the season of healing ourselves.

-:

00:22:57

We're still here doing the work for ourselves.

-:

00:23:02

So how have you come to peace with that?

-:

00:23:09

And perhaps talk us through how you decided to slow down.

-:

00:23:18

So my business mothers.hood.

-:

00:23:21

I have a podcast that I launched, um, back in May.

-:

00:23:24

But just to supplement is I have a, I, I work at have a corporate job as

-:

00:23:28

well, but I work three days a week.

-:

00:23:31

and I also

-:

00:23:31

Of course you do.

-:

00:23:35

Um, did, did you know, did lots

-:

00:23:37

of work on the way had, have, I've got lots of support for all of it.

-:

00:23:41

And I have recently had to step away from that for a, a question, mark.

-:

00:23:46

I don't know how long, because I was getting burnt out from that.

-:

00:23:50

And I just couldn't sustain what, what I was doing, putting, you know,

-:

00:23:56

it's, it's not just the physical aspects of at the time, it's the mental

-:

00:23:59

capacity and I just don't have it.

-:

00:24:01

And, celebrating my decisioned I would have to say that my husband did

-:

00:24:08

have to kind of help me along that way, which I've, you know, I'm truly

-:

00:24:12

grateful to him for, because, um, that was, I know that was a difficult

-:

00:24:15

conversation for him to approach.

-:

00:24:17

Because he knows how passionate I am about it and how much I put into this.

-:

00:24:20

But, this is a change in my mindset of how I used to be once upon a

-:

00:24:24

time, it would've been I've failed.

-:

00:24:26

Why, Why couldn't I try harder?

-:

00:24:28

Be more.

-:

00:24:29

Mm-hmm

-:

00:24:30

But where I don't know whether

-:

00:24:32

it's that I have less capacity now or a less additional capacity

-:

00:24:36

now because I'm a mother.

-:

00:24:37

I have a, you know, I, I have a have a job or whether it's because I'm

-:

00:24:42

more self aware of my own limits and I push through them less.

-:

00:24:46

Perhaps a combination of the two.

-:

00:24:47

I don't know.

-:

00:24:49

But my body fairly quickly tells me, don't always listen to it straight

-:

00:24:53

away, but my body fairly quickly tells me when there's overwhelming.

-:

00:24:56

Yeah.

-:

00:24:57

And there was anxiety bubbling away and just sleep being affected.

-:

00:25:01

And, you know, just, I can just tell by my thought processes so yeah.

-:

00:25:06

For now, for me, I couldn't give any more to it.

-:

00:25:09

I couldn't.

-:

00:25:10

Um, and I was, it was pulling me out of alignment with my values with

-:

00:25:14

my daughter, um, with my family.

-:

00:25:16

I just was feeling less and less present.

-:

00:25:19

And I want to continue to be able to be the mother that I,

-:

00:25:23

um, that I want to be for her.

-:

00:25:26

And also, I want to show up for myself and I couldn't do that.

-:

00:25:29

And all the ways I normally look after myself, weren't, weren't

-:

00:25:32

helping and I could see that.

-:

00:25:33

So, um, yeah, it was a big decision to step away, but as you

-:

00:25:36

said, seasons, it's a season in my life and, acceptance is hard.

-:

00:25:42

I am getting better at it in some ways.

-:

00:25:44

But accepting that this is where I am right now and acknowledging what I have

-:

00:25:50

done, actually, I'm very, I'm not very good at acknowledging what I have done

-:

00:25:53

and I know, and thinking that it's never enough and actually talking to people

-:

00:25:58

when I sort of step away and saying, oh my God, you've done all these things.

-:

00:26:01

And really.

-:

00:26:03

So taking some time to celebrate that.

-:

00:26:07

I think we don't talk about that

-:

00:26:11

internal struggle often enough when matresence activates something in us when

-:

00:26:18

motherhood activates something in us.

-:

00:26:20

And we it's like the two parts of ourselves of the inner split, right?

-:

00:26:25

The part of us that is the ambitious focused change maker.

-:

00:26:29

Ready to go.

-:

00:26:30

She she's good to go.

-:

00:26:31

She doesn't need sleep.

-:

00:26:32

She doesn't need that self care.

-:

00:26:34

She's got like, she's got the business plan.

-:

00:26:36

She's got the podcast platform ready to go, she's got the Instagram account.

-:

00:26:41

We're good.

-:

00:26:43

But at the same time, just as equally, we are a mother healing and growing

-:

00:26:52

and grieving and becoming, and we don't have a village and we don't

-:

00:26:56

have the support we need and we're still trying to catch our breath.

-:

00:27:02

From the last three years and that internal split, that internal

-:

00:27:08

battle is what I see daily.

-:

00:27:12

And also I see in myself.

-:

00:27:14

And so I really want to say to you, Sam, that, um, I I'm really grateful

-:

00:27:20

that you came on today for this conversation, because I know when we

-:

00:27:25

talked about doing this a while ago, it was the business go version of Sam.

-:

00:27:34

And when you reached out to me and said, actually I've decided to press pause.

-:

00:27:38

I said, brillian, let's talk about that.

-:

00:27:42

Because this is another version of us breaking up with the successful woman.

-:

00:27:49

You know, we talk a lot on this podcast about the good mother and how we feel

-:

00:27:52

like we need to be this perfect mother, but there's also this definition of the

-:

00:27:55

successful woman that says you started something, you need to finish it.

-:

00:27:59

You had a plan you need to keep going.

-:

00:28:03

Yeah.

-:

00:28:03

And that's what you are showing

-:

00:28:06

and, and, and demonstrating.

-:

00:28:07

And that's not, that's, that's not an easy thing to say to the world.

-:

00:28:12

So I really am incredibly grateful for you.

-:

00:28:17

Thank you.

-:

00:28:18

Um, I mean, I am a very transparent, authentic person and that's one of my,

-:

00:28:22

you know, Uh, they're two of my values and, and, I think that was a big part

-:

00:28:28

of my early motherhood journey where I wanted to, I didn't have the language

-:

00:28:31

necessarily to explain how I was feeling, but I was very, you can see

-:

00:28:35

it in my face if I'm not feeling good, or I want to talk about these things.

-:

00:28:39

So it's kind of in my nature to say oh, you know what I, so sometimes I do

-:

00:28:44

censor myself because not everybody's ready for those conversations.

-:

00:28:47

Um,

-:

00:28:48

Hmm.

-:

00:28:48

Some people say they're too deep so

-:

00:28:50

that is part of my nature to do that.

-:

00:28:51

And I just I want other people to know that it's not a, a, a shiny, um,

-:

00:28:58

A route to, to, you know, if you're doing your business or whatever,

-:

00:29:01

it may be that it's, there's gonna be bumps and twists and turns and

-:

00:29:05

going backwards and, and all of that.

-:

00:29:08

So, um, thank you.

-:

00:29:11

well, it's not linear.

-:

00:29:14

Yeah, exactly.

-:

00:29:15

We think that don't we?

-:

00:29:16

We think this is our life we're children, teenagers, you know, and

-:

00:29:19

you're kind of just continuing on in this and it really isn't like that.

-:

00:29:23

And, learning, um, relearning about life really.

-:

00:29:27

I know that's kind sounds maybe crazy to say that, but since I had my daughter,

-:

00:29:30

I feel like I've really completely changed the way that I, I see the

-:

00:29:37

world and obviously that's, that is part of matresence but I completely

-:

00:29:42

changed the way that I see life.

-:

00:29:43

Um,

-:

00:29:45

Hmm,

-:

00:29:46

that's it.

-:

00:29:46

And what if this whole experience has been about you learning how to role model this.

-:

00:29:54

You awakening something in you going full throttle with it, doing what you can, but

-:

00:30:04

then also recognising what's happening in your body again and stepping back.

-:

00:30:08

And so when you step forward again, you are a role model for the women who are

-:

00:30:12

also struggling with this back and forth.

-:

00:30:14

I think that's, we talk about it so much.

-:

00:30:16

Don't we, that, you know, we have to be the examples of breaking

-:

00:30:20

up with that idea of the good mother and the successful woman.

-:

00:30:25

Yeah, a absolutely.

-:

00:30:27

Um, I think I feel uncomfortable when people say being a role model for others,

-:

00:30:31

but that's a that's mindset, isn't it?

-:

00:30:33

Um, um, yeah, but when I think of role model, I think of my daughter and I

-:

00:30:39

always know there's that little pair of eyes watching me watching what I do.

-:

00:30:43

And I say this to coaching clients and friends, and that this is always

-:

00:30:47

one of the most powerful things.

-:

00:30:48

I think sometimes as women, we can't do the things for ourselves.

-:

00:30:51

And okay, that takes time.

-:

00:30:52

And maybe we, we, we are working on that, but if you can't do it

-:

00:30:56

for yourself in that moment, think, who's that little person watch or

-:

00:31:00

with the people, or, you know, not even so little who are the people

-:

00:31:03

watching you with their eyes, they're watching you and learning from you.

-:

00:31:07

And, and that's always really present with me.

-:

00:31:09

And that Luna sees how I am dealing with things.

-:

00:31:12

Um, And I, I just want to add in here that, Amy, as you know, we

-:

00:31:17

lost a baby last year, Rose, but grief has played a big part of

-:

00:31:21

our lives for the past 18 months.

-:

00:31:23

Um, and that on top of being a, a woman and a mother and, and having a job

-:

00:31:31

or, or, you know, running a household or whatever it may be recognising

-:

00:31:36

that whatever we have been through, if you don't give ourselves time to

-:

00:31:42

allow ourselves to deal with that, it will deal with it for us as in.

-:

00:31:46

And I, think the grief also played a big part in it.

-:

00:31:51

I can't say for sure, but, you know, we, we, yeah, we can't always unpick

-:

00:31:55

it in a, in a perfect way, but, um that for me was, was also a big part of it.

-:

00:31:59

I think.

-:

00:32:02

You were able to recognise that,

-:

00:32:04

and see that you needed to take care of yourself first again.

-:

00:32:09

Sure.

-:

00:32:10

Because who else is going to take care of me?

-:

00:32:13

You know, we have people around us taking care of us, but if we can't take care

-:

00:32:16

of ourselves and really sometimes I was talking to a friend the other day and I

-:

00:32:20

said, I'm stepping back for my business.

-:

00:32:22

You know, I was feeling, you know, there was anxiety coming up and she said to

-:

00:32:24

me, how are you taking care of yourself?

-:

00:32:26

What are you doing?

-:

00:32:27

And I said, actually, sometimes really simple things that we need

-:

00:32:31

to do to almost get back to basics.

-:

00:32:32

But the basics we, we skim over because they're kind of

-:

00:32:35

like, not outstanding things.

-:

00:32:37

They're not exceptional things.

-:

00:32:39

They're getting good quality sleep, resting, space mentally and physically

-:

00:32:46

obviously eating well, moving our bodies.

-:

00:32:48

And meditation is a really big one for me.

-:

00:32:49

And I also see a counselor I've gone back to see my counselor

-:

00:32:52

because I process things through talking verbally processing.

-:

00:32:55

um, but these things aren't.

-:

00:32:59

You know, going on, obviously things like retreats and things are wonderful or

-:

00:33:02

beautiful, but it's, you know, it's not spa days or it's not anything like that.

-:

00:33:05

It's really, really fundamentals of living going in for, I live in

-:

00:33:08

a beautiful part of, uh, Essex and Epping forest going in the forest,

-:

00:33:12

even just for short walks, just listening, listening what's around me.

-:

00:33:15

And I, I, I just wanna say that it's, you know, it's not the

-:

00:33:18

exceptional things to do that, that get us back on track and living.

-:

00:33:22

And, and for me, I like to have projects and I like to be doing things.

-:

00:33:26

I have to have had to really change my mindset on doing I'm

-:

00:33:30

like, oh no, I'm not doing that.

-:

00:33:31

I can have more.

-:

00:33:33

No, no, no.

-:

00:33:34

We do less.

-:

00:33:35

And it's okay to do less.

-:

00:33:37

Um, that's a repro reprogramming that I've had to go through.

-:

00:33:43

Yeah.

-:

00:33:48

Sam, thank you for your divine vulnerability and honesty.

-:

00:33:56

What I really want this podcast to be able to do is yes, bring, you

-:

00:34:02

know, the authors, the experts, the people that have researched

-:

00:34:07

and studied and know the answers.

-:

00:34:10

But I also want to completely normalise what it looks like to be in the process

-:

00:34:15

of finding yourself through this.

-:

00:34:19

And that's exactly what this conversation has been for everyone who's listening.

-:

00:34:25

I know that they will feel the same.

-:

00:34:27

This is a divine example of matresence in motion.

-:

00:34:31

It is the struggles of the beginnings of motherhood and not knowing what was

-:

00:34:38

happening, the process of finding this answer and how that transformed things.

-:

00:34:44

And then this awakening of, I need to do something.

-:

00:34:48

I want to be a part of the change.

-:

00:34:50

It's the, like you said, it's the, from me to we, what am I going to do in the world?

-:

00:34:56

That's gonna make a difference for my daughter.

-:

00:34:59

And then also, still acknowledging that, wait, hang on a second.

-:

00:35:04

I've got my own healing grieving to do.

-:

00:35:07

And that's the beautiful messiness of this whole experience.

-:

00:35:11

So thank you for just being you in this conversation.

-:

00:35:16

It was spectacular.

-:

00:35:20

Oh, it was my absolute

-:

00:35:21

pleasure to be here.

-:

00:35:22

And as I, I, even through this conversation, I hope that, um,

-:

00:35:26

other mothers will know that they're not alone and they're not,

-:

00:35:28

there's nothing wrong with them.

-:

00:35:29

And, um, you, you need to you'll find your village and take it from there.

-:

00:35:36

Yeah.

-:

00:35:37

And take it from there one day at a time and follow that passion.

-:

00:35:41

If you feel like you're doing it today and creating an empire today.

-:

00:35:45

Great.

-:

00:35:45

But if tomorrow you change your mind.

-:

00:35:47

That's okay, too.

-:

00:35:50

Absolutely.

-:

00:35:50

Yeah.

-:

00:35:51

Changing your mind is good.

-:

00:35:55

Yeah, Sam.

-:

00:35:57

Thank you so much.

-:

00:35:59

Thank you.

-:

00:35:59

Beautiful.

-:

00:36:01

Thank you so much for having me.

-:

00:36:02

It's been amazing.

-:

00:36:06

Thank you for being a part of this conversation, Mama.

-:

00:36:10

We change the way mothers are valued and seen in our society and our world

-:

00:36:16

by bringing these conversations to light and spreading the whispers of matresence.

-:

00:36:22

And so I ask you to be a part of this movement now.

-:

00:36:26

Speak to others around you about matresence.

-:

00:36:30

About your experience of motherhood.

-:

00:36:33

Let's bring it to light together.

-:

00:36:35

To find out more about my matresence.

-:

00:36:37

Go to amytaylorkabbaz.com forward slashmatresence.

-:

00:36:42

And receive your free ebook the matresence map.

-:

00:36:47

So you can understand it even deeper.

-:

00:36:51

Thank you for being a part of this.

-:

00:36:53

Until next week.

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