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Life-Changing Moments and Leadership Lessons from Hal Donaldson
25th November 2024 • Seek Go Create - The Leadership Journey for Christian Entrepreneurs and Faith-Driven Leaders • Tim Winders - Coach for Leaders in Business & Ministry
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Are you struggling to find balance between ambition and a fulfilling personal life? In this compelling episode of Seek Go Create, host Tim Winders sits down with Hal Donaldson, founder of Convoy of Hope, to discuss the pivotal moments that reshaped his life and leadership journey. From a personal health scare to a life-changing encounter with Mother Teresa, discover how Hal's experiences can guide you toward a more purposeful, faith-driven approach to success and service. Tune in to explore the profound insights on leadership, humility, and the power of prayer.

"Balancing ambition and personal life begins with investing time in family and God." - Hal Donaldson

Access all show and episode resources HERE

About Our Guest:

Hal Donaldson is the president and CEO of Convoy of Hope, a renowned faith-based humanitarian organization. Under his leadership, Convoy of Hope has distributed over $2.5 billion in aid globally, focusing on poverty alleviation and disaster relief. Recognized by Forbes as a top charity, the organization partners with churches and businesses to create lasting impacts. Hal is also a respected author, notably co-writing "What Really Matters," which explores balancing personal care and serving others. His personal journey, shaped by early poverty and a life-changing encounter with Mother Teresa, drives his mission to serve the poor and elevate local communities.

Reasons to Listen:

  1. Life-Changing Health Scare: Discover how a health crisis at age 50 led Hal Donaldson to dramatically shift his focus from ambition to family and faith.
  2. Mother Teresa's Challenge: Hear the compelling story of how an encounter with Mother Teresa ignited Donaldson's lifelong mission to help the poor and suffering.
  3. Leadership Wisdom: Gain insightful advice on balancing ambition with personal life, the role of humility in leadership, and the importance of shared governance within non-profits.

Episode Resources & Action Steps:

Resources Mentioned

  1. Website - Convoy of Hope
  2. Book - "What Really Matters" by Hal Donaldson, available on platforms like Amazon.

Action Steps

  1. Evaluate Personal and Professional Balance: Reflect on your current commitments and ensure you are dedicating adequate time to family, personal life, and spiritual growth, as Hal Donaldson advises.
  2. Engage in Regular Prayer and Discernment: Develop a practice of prayer to align your actions with a higher purpose and seek divine guidance in decision-making, similar to the approach discussed by Donaldson.
  3. Support Disaster Relief Efforts: Consider getting involved with or donating to organizations like Convoy of Hope that provide immediate and long-term support to disaster-stricken communities, following the principles outlined by Hal Donaldson.

Resources for Leaders from Tim Winders & SGC:

🎙 Unlock Leadership Excellence with Tim

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Key Lessons:

1. Balance Ambition and Personal Life:

  • Hal Donaldson emphasizes the importance of prioritizing time with family and God, particularly after experiencing a health scare. Balancing ambition with personal and spiritual well-being is crucial for sustained success.

2. Importance of Humility in Leadership:

  • Both Hal Donaldson and Tim Winders stress that true humility is more about the aura a person has rather than introverted behavior. Humility attracts positive relationships and creates a supportive leadership environment.

3. Value of Prayer and Discernment:

  • Through prayer and seeking divine guidance, leaders can align their actions with God's will. This principle, demonstrated by Jesus, helps leaders avoid the pitfalls of over-ambition and misaligned efforts.

4. Sustained Engagement in Humanitarian Work:

  • Convoy of Hope’s model underscores the necessity of long-term engagement in disaster-stricken areas. Immediate responses are vital, but ongoing support helps communities rebuild effectively over time.

5. Shared Governance and Accountability:

  • Effective governance within non-profit organizations relies on shared responsibility between the executive team and the board of directors. This approach promotes accountability, prevents personality-driven leadership, and ensures mission stewardship.

These lessons, drawn from Hal Donaldson's experiences and insights, provide valuable guidance for leaders in both personal growth and organizational effectiveness.

Episode Highlights:

00:00 Introduction to the Interview with Mother Teresa

01:49 Hal's Background and Achievements

05:26 Convoy of Hope's Mission and Impact

08:41 Personal Reflections and Leadership Insights

18:04 The Power of Asking Questions

28:06 The Importance of a Solid Heart Foundation

30:44 Defining Success: Then and Now

31:59 Balancing Ambition and Obedience

41:41 The Role of Governance in Leadership

46:18 Disaster Relief and Global Programs

50:19 Writing 'What Really Matters'

54:18 Final Thoughts and Reflections

Thank you for listening to Seek Go Create!

Our podcast is dedicated to empowering Christian leaders, entrepreneurs, and individuals looking to redefine success in their personal and professional lives. Through in-depth interviews, personal anecdotes, and expert advice, we offer valuable insights and actionable strategies for achieving your goals and living a life of purpose and fulfillment.

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Mentioned in this episode:

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Transcripts

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Want you to interview mother Teresa for our book. In the course of

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that interview with mother Teresa, she turned the tables on me, and

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she simply asked this question. Young man, let me ask

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you, what are you doing to help the poor and the suffering?

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And I figured I shouldn't lie to her. I need to tell her the truth.

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And so I did, and I said, I'm not really doing much of anything.

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And she replied this way. She said, well, everyone can do

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something. Just do the next kind thing that God puts in front of

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you.

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What drives a person to tackle global poverty and hunger head

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on? Today, we're joined by Hal Donaldson, president and

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CEO of Convoy of Hope, a faith based organization

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recognized by Forbes as one of the top 50 charities in the

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United States. How a steered convoy of hope to distribute over

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2,500,000,000 in aid, impaction,

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and action. Listen in on our conversation as we

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explore the depths of what really matters in serving

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both ourselves and serving others while

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attempting to fulfill God's call in our lives. These things

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are deeply woven into Hal's latest book, What

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Really Matters. Hal, welcome to seek, go, create.

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Hey. It's great to be with you, Tim. Thank you for the invitation. Really grateful.

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Great to have you here too, Hal. And I and I've gotta admit, you

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are I'll use the terms kinda weird. You're kind of a rock star, but you're

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kind of a a a silent rock star. I

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I I got your stuff across my desk. I saw the book title. I said,

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yeah. We want him. And then I started doing a research. I said, gosh. This

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guy has a a lot going on. So we're gonna have a great

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conversation. But let's pretend for just a moment

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that, let's say we met outside of your domain,

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maybe outside of Church World or outside of nonprofit, etcetera.

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And you just bump into somebody and they ask you what you do. What's

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what's your typical response when people ask you that?

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Yeah. Well, first let me just say, I'm going to tell my kids tonight that

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you call me a rock star. They're going to be very impressed with that.

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But, yeah, I, I went out like I'm on an airplane, for example, and,

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the person sitting next to me asked that question. Typically we'll say, I am,

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president of a charity that is feeding children all over the world,

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responding to disasters all over the world. And we really specialize

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in mobilizing and activating churches and bringing

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them together with businesses to really make a lasting difference in the

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lives of people who are hurting or impoverished. What's the

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response you typically get from that? Tell me more, and they want to go a

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lot deeper. Like we start talking about our women's empowerment initiative

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and the tens of thousands of mothers every year that we're

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helping start businesses. And they wanna talk about the farming

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initiatives. Again, training tens of thousands of

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farmers and families every year, helping them increase their yields. So they wanna go deep

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and wanna understand really where it all came from. How did it all

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start? That's one of the questions I get quite a bit is, how did this

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all start? You know, I was interviewing a pastor recently,

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and we were talking about the same thing. And he said, you know, there's some

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people that might have a little bit of an edge to them when

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he mentions that he's a pastor. But my guess is

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that regardless of spiritual background, regardless of where they are in the

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world, I would guess you don't get anybody go, oh,

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I can't can't believe you. Feed the hungry, take care of the

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widows. I mean, it's pretty foundational needs based

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stuff. Correct? Yeah. It is. And, you

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know, I like to say this that, hey. Christians don't have a

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monopoly on compassion. We don't. And we really encourage

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people of all faiths. We encourage people who aren't religious,

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don't believe in God, to be compassionate. So yeah, it's been

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a, it's been a great conversation starter, Tim. I've met people where they

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become lifelong friends and just because they believe in what we

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do and, they may not necessarily believe in God yet.

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But they are on a journey, and they certainly are interested in the

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ongoing conversation. So that's certainly, been my

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experience. Yeah. And I I love that. I love it. Because and as Christians, we

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read that in scripture. I think sometimes we read in scripture

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what we are to do as Christians, and we look for other things to do,

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like correct other people or I went to bible school for a

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few years, beat people over the head with a bible, something like that. But I

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love the foundation of what you're doing. To to I tell you what I'd love

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for us to do during this conversation because we've got a lot of leaders listening

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in. We talk leadership. I've read through the book and and a lot

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of the themes there so resonate with a lot of our topics we've been having

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recently. But I think before I go any further,

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I wasn't as familiar with Convoy as Hope as I would have liked

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to have been. And so kind of to get

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started, I know I mentioned a few things in the introduction, and those are

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numbers and stats. But what and this may be general because

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I wanna talk specifically operations and leadership things later.

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But what in general would you like people to know about Convoy of Hope before

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we dive into talking about your book and leadership and some other things? Yeah.

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At the core of our mission is to really activate, mobilize

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churches, and to resource them. And, you know, I've I've found this to

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be true that thousands and thousands of churches that work alongside

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convoy of hope, it's really convoy of hope working alongside them.

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Our desire in every community in every setting is to

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really elevate the local church, lift up the name of Jesus. We're really

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not interested in building another charity. We're really

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interested in fulfilling the mission of elevating the local church. We

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believe that the church is God's answer to meeting the needs of

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humanity, both physical and spiritual needs. And so we are a

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supply chain to the church. There have been times where we have been asked

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to do other things outside of the church realm, and we have turned

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those opportunities down. They would have been fruitful financially. They

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certainly would have led to maybe more name recognition, but we

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didn't wanna leave what we believe God had given us as a mission.

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And the core value of Convoy of Hope is that it's about the

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local church. And so we have spent, the last 30

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years coming alongside thousands and thousands of churches

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and helping them be the hero in their communities and to lift up the name

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of Jesus. So, Tim, that's probably at the core of everything

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we do, is whether it's children feeding, women empowerment,

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disaster response, everything we do is to

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lift up the name of Jesus and to elevate the local church. The reason

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that that means so much to me, Hal, is

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because for some years now, I

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have actually been I don't wanna say critical, maybe

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cynical, but the local church has taken kind of

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a beating over the last few years for some time now.

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And some of its leadership challenges, some of its, you know,

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maybe culture and different and some of it maybe the the church has brought on

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itself. I haven't run across many people

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that are speaking in such a positive way

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hearing that. Well, that's and we give God the

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glory for that. It's why we've experienced rapid growth is because

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we we are tethered to local churches across the country. Yeah. And the and the

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good thing going back to something we talked about earlier, I actually

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think one of the things you may be doing is helping that local

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church stay on one of our biblical

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assignments, which is to feed and take care

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of and nurture and go out. You know, it could be that y'all

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come in and really provide that mechanism. Correct? That's

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exactly right. I think part of what we do is we remove all

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excuses. We're supplying the church

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with resources, know how, and we're helping them

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just really mobilize and activate their own people. And

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so, yes, that's, that's really our calling. And, I think there are thousands

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and thousands of churches across the country and around the world for that matter

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that would say that we've stayed true to that mission. It's

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we're really not interested. I know it doesn't sound like probably

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a wise thing to say, but I really am not interested in building another

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nonprofit or another charity. If that's all we do, then we have not

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fulfilled our calling and our mandate from the Lord.

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Yeah. That's excellent. I wanna come back to your

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role in the organization as we

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maybe wrap up. But what I'd love to do now is backtrack

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because when I when I'm interacting with people that I would

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call them, I would put them in the achievement oriented

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personalities, and I believe you would definitely fit into that.

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All of our guests really kind of fit into that. I I like

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to find out a little bit of the background that may have

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fed into that. From doing reading on you, I'm gonna mention 3 things

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that seem significant, and I will sometimes call them

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catalytic events that they really impact because I've heard you

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mention them as, you know, one when you were 12, one I think when

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you were able to interview mother Teresa, and then one when you had a health

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issue. I I think you were 50 years old at the time. I don't I

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don't there may be I think there were some others, but those were the ones

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when I'm just stepping back looking. Yeah. What do you wanna

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say about those as we lead into what really

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matters? Because I think all of those were significant, but anything I'm

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gonna allow you, whichever one you wanna choose or pick from there, if not all

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of them briefly. Yeah. I I I would

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probably combine those first two because they kind of work

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together. When I was 12, my parents were hit by a drunken driver. My

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father was killed. My mother was seriously injured. I was in the hospital

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for a number of months. Our family didn't have insurance. And so the

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man who hit them didn't have insurance. Our family was forced to survive

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on welfare and food stamps. We made it, we survived in

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large part because of the kindness and the generosity of a local church

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that wrapped their arms around us. And one family in particular, they

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allowed us to live with them in their single wide trailer for a year.

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As a teenager, I had a lot of, questions because I

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experienced the shame and the pain of poverty, but I also

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experienced the power of kindness. People put shoes on our feet. They

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brought groceries to our door. I think that's really where my

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love for the local church began because I was a recipient,

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But fast forward to adulthood and I thought the best way to

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escape poverty was through education. I worked my way through college or in

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several degrees. And in my twenties, I landed a job as

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a ghostwriter, helping people write their books. And

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I have a journalism degree and I began writing books

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and I got a contract that took me to Calcutta, India,

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where I met with some missionaries who I was going to write a book for.

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And they said, well, we want you to interview mother Teresa for a book.

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In the course of that interview with Mother Teresa, she turned the tables

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on me, and she simply asked this question. Young man, let

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me ask you, what are you doing to help the poor and the suffering?

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And I figured I shouldn't lie to her. I need to tell her the truth.

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And so I did. And I said, I'm not really doing much of anything.

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And she replied this way. She said, well, everyone can do

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something. Just do the next kind thing that God puts in front of

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you. I returned to the States after that

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conversation convicted, feeling like I needed to have a

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priority change, began praying for God to do a work in my

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heart. And one day, Tim, I

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felt led to do something quite unusual. And I thought I was

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going to write a book about it, but I felt led to travel to 8

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cities in America and live in the streets for 3 days 3 nights. I

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went to Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, DC, New York, major cities.

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I walked the streets after midnight with a hidden tape recorder interviewing drug

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addicts and gang members, prostitutes, runaways, and the homeless.

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And I rode with the police on the midnight shift. And all I can tell

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you is that in the streets of America, God broke my heart,

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and he had to do a work in my heart before he could do a

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work through my hands. Came back after those

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trips, and I, again, felt compelled 30 years

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ago to load up a, pickup truck with $300 worth of

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groceries and and start passing an amount to, working poor

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families, actually migrant farm workers in Northern California. That

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was the sort of convoy of hope 30 years ago. God breathed on it.

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We went from pickup trucks to box trucks, to

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semi trucks, to a fleet of semi trucks, to

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warehouses around the world. And so in a nutshell,

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I combine that 12 year old experience and the love and the

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kindness I experienced really to the work that we're doing

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today. And one thing, you sort of mentioned it, but it's something

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that is on people's mind when they hear a story like that. And and I

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do wanna say, I have heard some interviews, and

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I've read more from your book. There there is more to the story. It's

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when when one says a something so

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quickly about father being killed in an accident and all that,

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I I don't wanna I don't wanna imply we're being flippant about that story at

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all, but it was significant. And so what I I wanna

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follow-up is ask, was your heart because many

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people go through disappointment. I interviewed someone recently. They said the biggest

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hindrance to success is discouragement and disappointment. And

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so to talk about I'm I'm really

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fascinated now at this stage of my life. I'm 60, and I'm going, what's the

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condition of my heart? And I used to never think about that. But what was

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the condition of your heart during that time, those those years?

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Yeah. I I asked the hard questions at

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beginning at age 12. You know? Is he a good god?

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Did he cause my father to die? Or is he

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impotent? Did this just happen by chance? So those were the

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hard questions that I asked of the team. And Bill

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Davis, Bill and Levadas, they're Levadas Davis, they're the ones that

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invited us to live in their trailer. So as a 12 year old boy, I

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was hurting and Bill Davis came and he put his arm on my

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shoulder. And he said, don't allow the tragedy of your youth to

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become a lifelong excuse because where you start

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in life doesn't have to dictate where you end. And those words I

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held onto Tim, I held onto them. And, I think they

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really helped me get through high school, which was very difficult.

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Because you're going to school without a sack lunch. You're going to school with holes

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in your shoes. Those were hard times and I had to start

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working at a very young age. I was the oldest of 4 children.

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And so I became the father of the home at age 12.

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Those were some really difficult times, But if it

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wasn't for the local church, I would have chosen a life of bitterness.

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I would have. I wouldn't be on this podcast with you. I'd probably be in

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jail. But again, the love, the kindness that

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that church showed me is something that changed my life. In

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situations that are challenging,

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would you say now that there are blessings that have

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come from what anyone would agree is a

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challenge, losing a father, your mother, you know, going

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through difficulty. What are some of the things in looking back that

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it's a blessing? First of all, you're able you you've got a story to

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tell. Right?

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Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I think, maybe a

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a lesson that I learned along the way. I think when I was younger, I

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wanted to try and apologize for God. I was trying to explain

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for God. People would ask me questions like, you

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know, why are good people hurting? Why are they going

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through difficult circumstances? And I think we make a

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real mistake when we try to explain it away,

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and we use slogans, cliches to try and explain that

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question away. I think we're much better off saying, you know, I don't

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understand why children are abused. I don't

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understand why women suffer, at the

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hands of their husband. I don't know why lives are lost in disasters.

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I don't know why. But this I do know, that there are

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some things we're not going to be able to understand until we get to heaven.

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And I do believe that he's a good God. I believe he's a good

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God because he took my life and he showed

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me his kindness and his goodness. And I've seen him through Convoy of Hope

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give 1,000,000 and millions of people, hope

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and restore their hope. I believe it. I will go

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to my grave believing he's a good God. And so I

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think as a believer, as a follower of Christ,

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I learned at a young age, don't try to apologize for

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God. Don't try to explain him. And

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when I got to that point, it really helped me. It

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relieved a burden. So now I don't approach my father's death

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with resentment. I don't understand it. Even now,

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I don't understand it. But I believe he's a good God, and I

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believe he has a purpose, for everyone's life.

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Yes. And I think one of the key things that I I hear is that

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and there's a really, really good chance that we will not

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totally grasp it. I think one of our desires is

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to control and understand. And as

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I mature, I think part of that maturity is just

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letting go of that desire to control and

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and rule and reign in my life and allow him to rule and reign in

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my life. How one of the things we have as a title here

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is kinda like a subtitle is the leadership journey.

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And Yeah. When we're talking about an organization

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that's 30 years old, has done all that convoy of hope

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has, and I think I saw 12 years of

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20% plus growth over the last few years. One of the things

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I love to know, we've got some young leaders. We've got mature leaders that

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listen in here of both for profit and nonprofit.

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What are what are some things you can share about your leadership

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journey along the way? Obviously, you were younger

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when you started and probably had some drive, energy,

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etcetera. Anything come to mind when I mentioned the leadership

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journey that you've been on? Sure.

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I'd like to tie it back to, the last, segment if I

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can. You know, I think as leaders, it's okay to ask questions.

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And even if those questions may feel harsh, God can handle

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it. One of the things I do, Tim, is I write my questions down,

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and I, tend to put them in my wallet. If you were to look at

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my wallet today, you would see that I have several questions for God that I'm

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asking, and just so God can handle it. And so as leaders,

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it's important that we're asking the right questions and we're not afraid

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of asking those questions. Asking the right questions

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is not a lack of faith. I believe it actually is faith

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when you know who to ask. And so, you know, I carry those

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questions with me and I'm asking God those questions every day. So that'd

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be one thing I would say. A lot of people are paralyzed by the fact

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that they have unanswered questions. We don't need to be paralyzed

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by unanswered questions. In my case, I don't need to be

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paralyzed by the magnitude of the need out there in the world. God wants

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me just to do what I can do every single day to wake up and

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do what I can do. And I think as a young leader, I thought that

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I had to work at 125%.

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And if I didn't, that I was really disappointing God. I

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wish in my early days that I had prayed more and worked less.

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Honestly, if I had, I probably would have saved myself a lot

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of grief and a lot of challenges along the way. The last thing I

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would say is probably make sure that you're living under

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the right expectations. If you are,

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ambitious and you want to accomplish something for God,

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that's beautiful. We all should be that kind of person that wants to

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do what God's asking us to do. But a lot of times we're living

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under the expectations of other people. It could be a spouse. It could be a

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child. It could be an employer. And those expectations

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are unrealistic. And as a result, we work at

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125% to try to achieve our goals. I think

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when I was in my twenties, I put up on pedestals people

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who had the loudest voice, who had the largest network, who

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were the most seen. In retrospect, I

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wish I had put on pedestal people who were the most humble,

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people who were the most loyal, the most faithful and kind.

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Because what happens is as a young person, you have a tendency to

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try to emulate what you see and what you idolize. And you

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begin to work so hard to achieve what they've achieved, but

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that may not be what God's called you to do. And so know,

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in retrospect, I wish I had just tried to emulate and idolize

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people who are just faithful. And and, I think you've

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got some examples in the book. And that's the reason I even do a podcast.

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I love asking questions. I've even, in my quiet time, said, God,

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are you okay with my questions? And I I think he's told me, I love

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it that you ask questions. That's the way I wired you. But do do you

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have any examples of, I'll call them an

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audacious question that somebody listening might go, oh my

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gosh. I can't believe Hal asked God

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that. I mean, anything come to mind when I say that?

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Sure. Oh, yeah. Many. Many. Because, I would

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approach it this way, that if if I have the ability to, answer those

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questions or to fulfill those questions, then they're probably

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not the right questions for God. The questions I ask God

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are things that I can't do on my own and my own

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ability. I'll give you one. So, you know, about 4 years ago,

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we felt like that it was time for us to consolidate our

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offices and our work into one facility. And, you know,

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I wrote down in my wallet, a little piece of paper in

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my wallet, I said, God, how on earth do we

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raise $70,000,000? Because, you know, we didn't

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wanna take children out of feeding lines. We didn't wanna take women out

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of the women's empowerment program. We didn't want to stop our community

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festivals across the United States. So God, how do we

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continue to do that and to grow that, and simultaneously,

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how do we raise $70,000,000 So that

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was my question. All right? Because, again, that's

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beyond my ability. I could not do that,

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but God can, and God showed us how.

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And so I felt like the Lord answered me, and it

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was how to knock on one door at a time, just

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one door at a time, and ask people to help.

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And we did, and God did it.

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You can't take credit for that. You can't reach for the

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glory. God did it. And there are many examples. There are

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more personal examples of relationship issues that have,

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come up through the years. I discovered a long time ago, God is a

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great reader. He reads. He reads really well.

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I love the imagery of you writing it down and putting it

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in your wallet. Wallets generally, and

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this is symbol little symbolism here is where we keep our

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money. You know, we we keep credit cards, maybe some pictures

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of, you know, family and all that. I've got kind of a lean wallet myself

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right now, and I love the imagery of you taking your

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questions for God and inserting it in there with

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those those typical financial things that are in a in a

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wallet. How what what do you

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what if someone were to ask

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and I don't know if it's changed over the years, if it was early on,

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if it was different, and now it's it it it's different than that. But

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what would you say are your superpowers? What are some things that

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God gifted you with

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that are they come natural to you?

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Yeah. You know, someone asked me one time, you know, what do I want

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written on my gravestone? And I said, I'd like it to

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say that I treated everyone the same, everyone the same.

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And again, I come from poverty. I come from

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inferiority and brokenness. And it

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helps you it prevents you from getting full of yourself. And

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when you get full of yourself, you no longer hear God's voice. You don't hear

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it with clarity. And so, yeah, I think that's

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probably the most important thing. And, Tim, if you're my friend,

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I make it my goal to give you more than you give me.

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So if there's anything that God's blessed me with, it's, a

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desire for friendship. And I think when you have

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that approach to life where every person is valuable

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and everyone is a child of God and you want to be their friend,

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you become like a spiritual magnet. And people wanna hang

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out with you. They wanna be with you because they sense that you care,

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that you value them. So I've never said that

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before to anybody, but I kinda feel like that's one of the things that God

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has built upon is just a love for people. Yeah. And there's

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it kinda goes back to that heart issue we were talking about earlier is I

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I think hard hearts repel.

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Hard hearts repel, soft hearts attract. And and

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I and I think that layers in to what you were saying, which is

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interesting. I'd written the word humility next here on kind

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of my my list because you had brought it up earlier.

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And I and I don't wanna the way I'd like for the us to

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discuss humility because I believe what you just said is a

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description In some ways, maybe it's a character trait of humility.

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But what I'd love for you to if you could expand on, earlier you

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said you wanna be around people that are people of

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humility. You wanna surround yourself with that. And and

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one of the things I've noticed with myself and and I think you contrasted

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that with people that are loud public figures. They, you know, they

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were charismatic and things like that, and that might be a word you didn't

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use. It's a word I use. Yeah. I believe I'm better at it

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now, but I think years ago, I struggled with identifying humility

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in others, maybe because I struggled with it myself. But

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how do you gauge humility in

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others? Yeah. It's probably a lot different

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than what people would assume.

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They assume that if you're an introvert, you're humble.

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They assume if you are kind, you're humble.

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I think it's different than that. I think each one of us has

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an aura about us, and that

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aura speaks volumes. And and

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rarely do you have to use words for people to know whether or not you

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are someone who is full of themselves or not,

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whether that person is aloof? Do you have a humble aura

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about you? I think it's that's where the Holy Spirit comes

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in. I think it's the Holy Spirit that really reveals

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what that individual is about and what he or she is

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about. So at least that's what that's been my

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experience, Tim. Really has been. I wanted to follow-up with what you said about

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the heart, and I I do believe the heart is the foundation that God builds

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upon. And if the heart is flawed, God

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can only build so tall because it will

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collapse under the ego of that foundation. And so

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I think it's imperative that you really have a heart after

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God. You have a heart that's solid because that is the

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foundation that the Lord will build your business, your church,

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or your organization around. And what's interesting about that over the last few

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years, the Lord has been working on me. I had my father passed away, and

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we've had some situations in in family and

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all. And also even with COVID and things like that. I asked a

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lot of questions of the Lord too. It's like, Lord, what is going on here?

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What's happening? And he kept bringing me back to

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thinking eternally. And that from an eternal

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perspective, the condition of my heart is the most important thing.

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And for for a guy who's an industrial and systems

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engineer, time is important. Deadlines are important. I

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I work with leaders and leadership teams. You know, I I I can

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get to thinking about a lot of other things,

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and, that reminder is is very healthy.

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I have found when I force myself to

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overlook that character trait of humility and do

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business with people or interact with people that

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may not have that character foundation. I'm not saying

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anybody's perfect. We all have, you know, flare ups and situations. But

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can you talk a little bit about that, especially touching all the people you do

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with your organization? How important is it to work

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with people that have some humility?

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Yeah. I think it's important to work with people who are like minded,

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who understand the mission. There are a number of organizations,

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individuals that we've chosen not to work with, not because it

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wouldn't be profitable, but just because we know

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that eventually there's gonna be a train record. Let's find people

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who are like minded, who are after the same things,

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who aren't after the credit, who aren't after personal gain, but are

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after the mission. I could give you many examples of that, where we've been very

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careful to make sure we align ourselves with people who we believe

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in. And I like to say it this way, that if we're not willing to

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hand them the microphone in front of our constituents and our

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donors, then they're probably not someone that we want to be working

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with. That's, for me, a litmus test. Will I hand them the

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microphone k. And let them talk? One of the things

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I'll ask it this way. How are you

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defining success today? And then

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maybe go back in time. I don't know if it's 30 years ago or 20

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years ago or I I think at the age of 50, we'll talk a little

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bit about the catalyst, I think, for the book. Yeah. But how are you

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defining success either then or now in contrast if it's different?

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Yeah. It's much different. Like I said before, in the early days, I was certainly

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self reliant as opposed to god reliant. I thought I really

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measured success by the accolades of other people, not necessarily,

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the favor of God, but the accolades of people around me.

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That's a really dangerous path. In the book, I say

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that, success is more dangerous than failure. It is for

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that simple reason, is that you can get full of yourself, and you

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can begin to rely on yourself and not be willing to even give God a

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vote when you're trying to make decisions. And so, yeah, I would definitely

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fall into that category. But again, that goes back to my childhood.

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I'm trying to escape poverty. I'm trying to escape inferiority

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and trying to escape all the things that I hated as a

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teen. And so, you know, that compels you to do things that you probably

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shouldn't do. And so along the way, you know, I guess I've learned

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to use restraint and, to give God a vote. Success

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for me today is something that I'm sure that many people already know.

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It's obedience. It's obedience. A lot of people are after a

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balanced life. I'm after an obedient life. Because

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if you're obedient, you're going to be balanced. If you're doing what God's asking

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you to do, you will live a balanced life. And so for

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me, success is equal to obedience.

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And what are some if I'm around you

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either as your wife or I know you've got children or people that are

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in your close circles, what are some ways

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or clues that they know that you're being obedient? Either

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practices or anything like that? Because

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obedience is a word we use quite a bit in church circles, and I'm

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not sure that a lot of us translate that to a practical day to day.

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What does that look like for you? Yeah.

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Typically, what they'll my wife and my children, we have 4 daughters,

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and they will identify this. They'll they'll identify

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the fact that I am that my schedule is outrageous,

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and they're willing to tell me that. They will,

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that I look tired and, you know, or,

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hey, dad, you're not around. You're just you're traveling too much. It's

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those kind of things that let them know that, you know, I've gotten out of

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balance, and I'm not living in obedience. I'm living in an

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ambition and, you know, reckless ambition is a very dangerous thing

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as well. And I certainly have lived through that in my lifetime.

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Mhmm. I remember during the nineties, I was

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extremely proud and prideful of the fact that I

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lived off very little sleep. There was a picture

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that our, daughter did. I think it was in kindergarten

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or something where she was a family picture, and

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my dad's eyes were red.

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Yeah. And the teacher even asked her, said, oh, you know,

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your dad's eyes are red. She goes, well, that's what color they are. They're

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red all the time. And I was

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somewhat prideful of that, about how

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little sleep I needed. And, you know, and some of

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us have even said absolutely silly things, Hal. Like,

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I'll sleep when I die, and, you know, I'm doing the things

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that God needs me to do so he can equip me. But I think when

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we use words like ambition and success and

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achievement for people that describe people like

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you and others, there's other a lot of others out there, there are

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words that can creep in like like hustle

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and, you know, like you mentioned

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earlier, a 120%. And and and I've even

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I've even observed that a lot of people kinda

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have some addictions related to that. That's a strong word. But

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we can be addicted to busyness, to achievement,

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to more. My addiction was more, truthfully. It

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wasn't drugs. It wasn't I just was addicted to more.

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Are there any of those that you've identified that that you had? Because

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someone doesn't do 30 years just

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cruising along. There's something that's making that motor, that

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engine inside them run, and it may not always be healthy.

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Yeah. I think for me, it it was it is to this day.

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Again, a love for people and a desire to help

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people escape poverty. It's, all these

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things that we all believe in. But even in doing

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good things, we can overdo it.

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I found myself I'm traveling all over the world, Tim. I'm in Afghanistan,

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Indonesia, Philippines, Africa, South America,

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all over the world to feed the hungry and, you know, to

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help them escape poverty. But I was doing things that God

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wasn't asking me to do. And meanwhile, I

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was missing amazing opportunities to invest in my children

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and my wife's. And so again, just because you're doing

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something really good, it doesn't mean that God's asking you to do

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it. That certainly was the case for me. I think for a lot of

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times, a lot of people, and I have the opportunity to talk to a lot

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of leaders and pastors, And I think a lot of it is, less

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about ambition and more about boredom that they're trying to,

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really run away from boredom and to keep their life

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occupied. And I think that's one of the things that I have

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experienced that I I've learned to, maybe enjoy the quiet a

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little bit more and the time with God,

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or with my wife or with my daughters and just to

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enjoy that and not take it for granted. And I think there

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are a lot of leaders that are they're actually running away from boredom maybe

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more than they are ambitious. I I know I I think it was the

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age of 50 you had a bit of a health scare. But is some of

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that also just age or maturity

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or things like that? We're just finally

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getting it? Yeah. I I really do think

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so. And I think the older you get, the more you realize what

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really matters in life, you know, going back to the title of the book.

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But yeah, at age 50, I found myself,

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laying in a hospital bed with heart issues. They had to put 2 stents on

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my heart. And laying there, I just really felt convicted that I was trying to

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do too much, but God really made that very clear I was trying to do

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too much. When I was released from the hospital, I resigned one of my

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jobs. I stepped off of 8 board of directors. I canceled 2

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book writing contracts, and I gave really focus to

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Convoy and to my family. And I can tell you

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the irony of all of that is that when I made those decisions,

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God began to do so much more than I ever could. You know, one of

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the thing there's 2 biblical stories that pop in my head

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here, and then I'll I'll pose it as a question. But

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I've I've studied the gospels quite a bit, and with the background I

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mentioned earlier, hustle, hustle, grind, grind, you know, that some of

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us have lived through. I don't

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see that Jesus ever really hustled that

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much. We could tell had about 3 years

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ish for his, what we would call his ministry.

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They walked everywhere, didn't cover much really ground.

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Obviously, he never got on an airplane. I guess so.

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Right. Right. And, and I never I

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haven't found a scripture where it says, you know, and Jesus, you know, yelled to

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the disciples, alright, guys. You know, pull up the tunics. We gotta pick it up

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and put it down to get over to Capernaum here. I just I

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never see that. And so that's one example. And then I I I

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recently interviewed a pastor, Troy Grambling, where he'd written a book called

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Potential, and he used the story of Moses. And

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and as best we know, Moses spent 40 years in

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the palace, 40 years on the backside of the desert, and then 40

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years with the people of Israel. And during

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that 40 years in the desert, it seems as if he did nothing.

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And so I pose this as a question to a high achiever.

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Big organization. We have a lot of list

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leaders. Is doing nothing an option

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at times? Definitely.

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There are times when doing nothing is better than doing something. But most

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of the time, doing something is better than doing nothing.

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And I use Jesus as the marvel because when you

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look at his life, he didn't heal everyone. He didn't feed everyone. He

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didn't meet every need. What did He do? He did what His father

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asked Him to do. And that's why prayer is such an important

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component of our lives. You can't meet every need,

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but you wanna do what God is asking you to do. And

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so that's why you need to be willing to work and to help

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and to do the work to help people. But you also need to back that

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up with prayer so that you make sure that you're doing the right thing at

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the right time. Yeah. One thing that jumped out at me while I was reading

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through the book also is and this is maybe transitioning

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into a little bit of a leadership discussion around how you've operated

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at at Convoy of Hope. I I

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I coach for profit businesses and I also work with some leadership teams and

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some ministries. And I have found that it is

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very difficult for some people to operate in a

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board structure with a board. And and I kept

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seeing story after story of you interacting with your

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board. And I think it relates to what we just talked

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about. How do you know when to do something, when to do nothing, and

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things like that. I think I I definitely am not taking away from prayer, but

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if if the board is praying and if you're praying and all of that. But

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I I would love for you right now because there are people listening in that

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they think that having a board is just a legal structure and

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you want them in place and you don't want them to ever get control over

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whatever because they've seen stories like that. And then and then they also don't

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really consider them sounding boards and things like that.

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Talk about what a health because I perceive that you have a

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healthy board structure and relationship. Talk

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about that at Convoy just for people that may need some

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help in those areas. Yeah. Well,

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Tim, you're speaking my language because, I believe that

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governance is part of that foundation. And why is governance so

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important? Proper governance, what we call shared governance between the

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executive team and the board of directors. Why is that so important? It's because

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of accountability, but you do not want to build a ministry

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of this size around a personality. You really want

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to build it around a leadership team. And that's why I

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think board selection is so critical. Even if you are small,

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it's critical. And at convoy, we use a

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matrix of source. We want to make sure that we have adequate diversity

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and that can be gender diversity. It can be vocational, it can be geographic,

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can be denominational. And to make sure that we're filling in all the

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boxes, if you will. And so that kind of board

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selection is critical because if you select the right board members, it's

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going to prevent a lot of problems, down the road. You choose the wrong

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people. A lot of times churches, and I would say even organizations,

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businesses, they choose people who have the most money, who can give the most

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money. That's not criterion for a board

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seat. Really what you want on a board is people who are wise, who

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have a diversity of skill sets, and people who hear from

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God. That's what you're looking for. What they

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can give is really irrelevant. I think at convoy, you know,

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we've tried to live that out for many, many years. What's

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the relationship? Some people believe that a board is there for an annual

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meeting, and that's about it. But I I get the feeling there's a lot more

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there between not just you, but the leadership team that's the

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organization and then also the board. What are some of the rhythms or

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relationships that are there that you have that have led

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to y'all success? Yeah. Well, I think it's

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first really identifying what are the board responsibilities and what are the

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executive team responsibilities. So I think having a good understanding of

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that and how those two entities interact is critical

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on the board side. You know, that they are the keepers of the mission.

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They're the ones that have to make sure that the organization is

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staying on mission and not experiencing mission creed. The

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second thing that they are responsible for is fiscal responsibility,

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making sure that this is an organization that is financially

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sound. And because that will give longevity, that will

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allow the mission to continue long after current leadership

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is gone. And I think a third area would be making sure that the

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people that are a part of that ministry are well cared for, Making

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sure that and a lot of organizations, I think they leave that to the executive

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team. I believe that the the the board actually has a responsibility

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to make sure that all these people, there's 100 of people that make up an

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organization, in Convoy's case, 100 of thousands of

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volunteers, making sure that they're well taken care of.

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Those are just a few of the things. Obviously, they make decisions. They make fiscal

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responsibility type decisions on a regular basis, but I

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think it's caring for the people that's often overlooked. The

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reason that's such a good nugget for people to understand

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if you're a board member, I'm on the board of a few ministry organizations. You

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are also. And I think I've always looked at it as

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a fiduciary responsibility to, protect, oversee

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the assets of the organization. And I do think that a lot of

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people ignore the key asset of the people.

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So very powerful there. One other

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thing well, maybe not one other thing, but something that was just curious to

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me as I was reading about Convoy is I

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being kind of an operations guy, I'm a systems engineer, went to Georgia

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Tech, all that type stuff. I I look at an

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organization like Convoy, and I go, wow.

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They are doing a lot on what I would call a regular

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day to day basis, and then they have what I would call the

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response, the response,

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items that come up. And, and I guess even share

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some of the recent responses. But I would love for you to talk a

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little bit about overseeing, leading

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an organization that has day to day feeding

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x amount of people, that we're gonna do that regardless of what's happening in the

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world. And then a hurricane goes through and

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they're flooding in North Carolina and we wanna do something there.

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I don't wanna say 2 different mindsets, but there's 2 different operations

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in my eye mind that's going on there. Well,

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I think that's very astute, and that's accurate. You know, in our case,

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our disaster relief team is a separate division,

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and they are like a fire station. If we have

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dozens and dozens of trucks and different shower trucks and we have

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debris removal trucks and tractors, we got a lot of equipment, but

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it's like a fire station. They're ready to go at a moment's notice.

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Everything is gassed up. It's ready to pull out of the facility

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and they often do at a moment's notice. So I

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would say fire station. But here's the other piece of it I think that's really

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interesting is that we budget for the maintenance of those

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people and for the department and the equipment. But we don't budget

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for disasters. And here's the reason why, Tim, is because

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if you do that, you're going to be hoarding tens of 1,000,000 of dollars

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waiting for the next Katrina or the next Ukraine or the next,

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Helene and Milton. You know, you're gonna be hoarding 1,000,000 of dollars, and

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we don't believe that God has called us to do that. When our team is

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deployed like they are right now, they're in 6 states

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responding to Helene and Milton, and we don't want them worrying about

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money. Their focus is to lift up the name of

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Jesus, to elevate the local church, and to make sure that we're

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meeting needs, whatever that costs.

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That's really the goal, is go and do

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and represent Jesus in some very dark times, dark

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places. And we believe that if we are willing to do

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that, that on the back end, God will pay the bill. And he's been doing

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that for over 20 years since we've been involved in disaster response.

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And I think we're approaching it's near a 1000

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disasters that we've been involved in, everything you can imagine around the

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world and in the US. And I think last year alone was over

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70, 80 disasters that we responded to. But in

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H1, it's we're not we're not dependent

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on CNN, Fox, MSNBC. You

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know, we wanna be the first on the ground, and we wanna be the last

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to leave. Because a lot of times, organizations

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leave disaster zones because they can't raise any more money. We

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don't wanna be driven by money. We wanna be driven by obedience and need.

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Mhmm. That's good. Because one of the other things that come to my mind

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is that in general, my observation, you can tell me if this is

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correct, people will often

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give to the event, especially the major event,

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sometimes more diligently than they will

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for that child that needs food every day.

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What can you say about that just when I bring that up?

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It's very true, and that's one of the reasons why we have a global program

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division, and we have a disaster, response division.

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And the reason for that is that we want the people who give the global

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program who are really sustaining that initiative to

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continue and stay focused on that. And if they wanna give a one time

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gift to disaster service in response to hurricane Elaine or

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Milton, for example, that's beautiful. That's great. A lot of

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churches, a lot of businesses, do that. They give the one time

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gift. And we thank God for that, because it's that giving that

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sustains us for the long haul. I don't mind telling

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you, there are disasters that happened 2 years ago. Convoy of hope is

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still there. We are still helping people put their lives back together,

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and it's sustained by the generosity of people. If you're doing the right

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thing in the wake of disasters, elevating local church, lifting up

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Jesus, meeting needs, we believe God will pay the bill, and as

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long as you're willing to stay, he will sustain you. We've seen him

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do miracles. Convoy of Hope is an organization through the years that

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just has experienced miracle after miracle.

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And we like to say around here, hey. We're just following the miracles.

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That's what we do. So how you are

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following the miracles and somewhere along the way, you've been writing, it sounds

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like, a good portion of your life, but yet

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you write something that's titled What Really Matters.

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And and it's a book that I I like the subtitle is how to care

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for yourself and serve a hurting world. How do

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you reconcile caring for yourself and

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serving and caring for others? I used to think that caring for

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myself was unnecessary, that basically

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almost abusing myself and traveling all over the world and doing all I was

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doing that. That was a necessary sacrifice in, in order for

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the mission to be fulfilled. And I guess I got to the realization

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where I, I, again, through the health crisis I had at age

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50, I began to realize taking care of yourself is not an act of

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selfishness. It's an act of selflessness.

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Because the healthier I am, the healthier you

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are, the more you're gonna be able to do for other people.

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And God does not expect us to run with an empty

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gas tank. We're gonna be able to do a lot more for people when that

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gas tank is full. So I think that realization was

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one of the things that happened at age 50 that has really transformed my

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life. Who is who would you say this book is

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for? Did you have an audience in mind as you were writing it?

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I did. I'll tell you what was happening, and and this is really what provoked

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the book. Because of Convoy of Hope's rapid growth, you know, I think

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35 on the Forbes list, I was getting a lot of

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calls from pastors and business leaders and organizational

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leaders, and they were wanting to know the secret sauce. And,

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invariably I would say, well, it's the heart. You gotta make sure your heart's sound.

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It's it's healthy. If your heart is healthy, then God will build upon

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it. And they would say things like, well, I get that, but what are the

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organizational adjustments that I need to make? I said, no, it's really about

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the heart, and that's where it starts. So I figured, Tim, rather than me just

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being a broken record, I just wanna write a book, and I'll just slip it

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in the mail to them. So now when I get those questions, just send them

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a book. The cool thing is I believe you've done

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some ghostwriting and writing for people, but you also had someone

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that helped you out with this book. And I think is it Lindsay? Did

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it tell me a little bit about that process.

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Yeah. Lindsay's my oldest daughter. She's a trained lawyer,

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and, she is an amazing researcher

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and a gifted writer her own her own right. She's,

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someone I'm really proud of. And the whole process was

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that, she and I put the outline together and she goes after

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the research and everything from scriptures to other

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things that we cite in the book. Yeah, she's been invaluable. And this is actually

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the 3rd book we've written together. And we have a system in place. And

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I don't know that we're going to do another one real soon, but we've got

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a system in place and she's really a benefit. Excellent.

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Well, I wanna share my favorite chapter is chapter 9. I've actually

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got page 153 pulled up. And one of our

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topics we just have constantly addressed here

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on seek co create is kinda taking

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care of yourself. And it really you you kinda go

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into sleep and things like that, which I talked about earlier. I used to have

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a, a a very, unhealthy

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badge of honor of lack of sleep. Sleep's important to me

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now. Rest is important to me now. I'm I'm not ashamed to

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say I like a good night's sleep, and I don't mind a nap every once

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in a while. Hal, at 60, almost 61 years old, I'm I'm good with

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that. So, anyway, excellent job with the book. I'm sure

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people can find it in all the places, Amazons and all. Anything else about where

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people connect with you or the book that you wanna share? If

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they want more information about Convoy of Hope, they can just go to convoy of

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hope, dot org. We look forward to hearing from them. Excellent, Hal,

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and appreciate all that you've done and appreciate you writing this book. I think it's

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valuable for leaders. I think it's a message that they all need.

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Every leader I deal with, they need to slow down, be more

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obedient, be still and quiet. How we're seek, go

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create, those three words. And I know with your

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scriptural background, you can guess where they probably came from, but I'm gonna

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allow you to choose one. This is my final question. Seek, go, or

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create, and why? Oh, I I I love the word

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create. And I I used to think, Tim, that we that,

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you know, we could create simply by making organizational

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adjustments. But I I think the older I've gotten, the more

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experience I've had. I I think you invite, you know,

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innovation. You invite creation by having, the right

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mindset, the right heart. And certainly, that's what we try to do at Convoy.

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So I love the word create. I appreciate people listening in. It's been a great

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conversation of depth for people of achievement

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mindset, people that are leaders, or someone that may even wanna

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help and support the, Ministry Convoy of Hope. We have

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new episodes here every Monday. We are on YouTube. We're on all the

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podcast platforms. Until next time, continue

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being all that you were created to be.

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