Learning to Thrive Beyond Pornography use was the greatest challenge of our life and marriage. It had rocked my self confidence, tainted all of the most important experiences of my life and become the most impossible challenge I had.

With this podcast or at https://www.GetToThrive.com you'll learn about the struggle, how to overcome pornography use, and where to find additional resources to begin to thrive beyond pornography with your spouse.

At some point I took a step away from all the 12 step meetings and councilors and started to figure out my own brain, to look at my issue as something that I had the answer to and I was going to figure it out. Here I share those lessons and give you the power to start your own journey free. Whether you struggle with unwanted pornography use or are the spouse or partner, whether you feel stuck or just don't know where to start, here I will teach you principles, tools and skills that you can use today to change how you think and, in the end, what you do.

You'll hear interviews with my spouse, with experts on human sexuality and with former and current pornography users on how you can overcome your own struggle with addictive behavior.

The Thrive Beyond Pornography podcast will bring new perspective to your struggle and keep you coming back to improve all aspects of your life. (formerly, The Self Mastery Podcast: Overcome Pornography Forever)

Episode 264

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Uh, we're going to use pseudonyms for them, so don't try to figure out who they are. Uh, Tim and Mary. Hey, Tim. Hey, Mary. How are you? Um, I, I'm excited to have this conversation with you guys, because I think that you have traveled very far on this process. I think that, well, we were talking just before we started recording about how far you had come and how, your passwords, uh, for the content that, that, uh, you access, even.

Indicated how far you've come from where you are. So I want to just start by just having you guys introduce yourselves and then, and then we'll, we'll, I'll ask you some questions. How's that sound?

Him: Sounds good.

Zach Spafford: Awesome. So Tim, why don't you start?

Him: Hi, I'm Tim. Um, my wife and I have been married for almost 20 years, almost 20 years.

We've got four awesome kids. We're too young to have teenagers,

Her: but we do,

Him: but we do. And, uh, yeah, that's awesome.

Zach Spafford: Perfect. Mary, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Her: Hi, I'm Mary. And I met in college. Um, we both come from highly Dysfundysfunctional families.

Her: And, and when we got married, we were both so proud of ourselves that we were bringing none of that to our new marriage.

Um, and, and, and when we started this, I remember thinking that we were so amazing at this marriage stuff because. I remember we were like, Zach, yeah, we never argue. We're, we're so good. Like we never argue ever. And, and after all the work, we're just like, that is such a red flag for you guys have problems.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. So why don't you guys, why don't you tell us a little bit about what your relationship was like before this work together around pornography use.

Her: Highly conflict avoidant of all kinds. Like, and not just conflict, like avoidant of anything that had the potential to cause any kind of bad feelings, anxiety.

Oh, you may not like me if I say that. And I, I'm not realizing how dishonest we were with ourselves and with each other.

Zach Spafford: So what, what brought you to this conversation? You know, about a year ago, Tim. You know, you reached out and you were like, Hey, let's, let's have a conversation. But how did you get to that point?

Him: That's a really good question. Um, I would say in addition to avoiding conflict, there was just, at least for me, a feeling of stuckness.

Zach Spafford: Yeah.

Him: Um, I found myself saying regularly just how stuck I felt, how much I felt like I wanted things to change, but anytime I would bring up, Hey, could we Improve our marriage in this way or in that way.

It would lead into what we call a death spiral in terms of a conversation where it just turns into accusations and defensiveness and criticism, and it, it was just super painful. And so I, Zach, you say it more than once, pornography is never really the issue, right? Right. And so while that was a part of our relationship at a fairly infrequent amount, it didn't change the fact that however we were coping with all these negative feelings, it, it wasn't, it wasn't helping, it wasn't helping us address the root of the issue.

And so it just kind of came to a head. And. And I felt like, look, if, if we can't solve this on our own, I need some help. I want some coaching. I want somebody to help me see things more clearly and perhaps give us some advice.

Her: Well, and I felt like by the time you contacted him, we were at the point of either we get help or we're, we're kind of done, like that's the direction we were headed, which was unfathomable from when we got married.

Him: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I would say that. While divorce had never been, uh, an active conversation, it was starting to feel for both of us, like, I'm not sure how else to, to survive this relationship.

Him: That's a great question. Um, for me, it was largely just. The willpower be, you know, it, it happens so infrequently that it felt like I should just be able to not have to do any of that. And I, I was pretty open and honest with what I call the slip and, but it would derail our relationship for weeks and months at a time.

And so that clearly wasn't producing a lot of results.

Zach Spafford: So as you started into this work, what changed as you were doing the work together, as you saw, because in the beginning, I, I remember this was not a fun process.

Him: Nope. I mean, there's something about having an objective party. Because sometimes your conversations, as well intentioned as they are, can turn into, I'm suspicious about your motives and you just, you, you know me so well that you are just trying to manipulate me. That's kind of the feeling sometimes in, in, uh, a conflict and just having a third party who isn't taking sides but just trying to call it like he sees it.

Uh, was extremely valuable for me.

Her: I felt like, um, both of us were so entrenched in our own personal positions that we were convinced that we were the correct one. Right. And so I would remember at the beginning, I started dialoguing whenever we would have an issue and as objectively as possible. And then we would have our meeting and be like, Zach, I don't, I can't speak for Tim, but I have written out this, our latest conflict.

And will you please tell him all the things that he did wrong? Because, and then get proverbially smacked in the face sometimes, you know, but hopefully,

Zach Spafford: hopefully I did it in as kind of way as possible.

Him: Yes,

Her: mostly. Um, but the thing that I found interesting is in the beginning, we started learning all this new vocabulary and new ways to twist reality.

And so we could sound so reasonable and so. Regulated, you know, that it would be like, no, that's not actually what's going on here. And, and for me, like, that was also, I remember I, I looked at my notes from the beginning, like, that was something I really struggled with was, what do I think about what's going on here?

And not just, Oh, well, he said it. So that's whatever, whatever he said.

Zach Spafford: Yeah.

Him: Going back to your question about what else were we trying? I mean, we, we, We really enjoy listening to a lot of podcasts, myself in particular, but to Mary's point, you can spend a lot of time learning how to talk about these issues and how to sound therapeutic without making a whole lot of headway in terms of mutual understanding and collaboration.

Her: Because I think by the time we came to you, we had tried a marriage counselor that crashed and burned. We had tried, we had taken several of JFS courses, uh, and Tim listens to all the podcasts about all the things. Um, so, and I had had a therapist a few times.

Zach Spafford: Well, and I think, I think, you know, the way that you describe it, you were at a point that, you know, for, for lack of a better term was essentially a crisis of.

So I love that. And I think that that, you know, that really speaks well of you because

It does occur where I sit down with folks, and one of them is not really willing to see reality, and they're like, this isn't my problem, this is his problem, or her problem, and I'm not willing to leave the ground that I'm on, that's secure, to find better footing. And so I'm not willing to see myself in a way that, that takes away from my sense of self in order to get a better sense of self.

So, you know, the work that you guys did there, I think is probably more pivotal than, uh, than, than I think most people will, uh, give it credit for.

Him: Well, and I, I would add to that crisis feeling that you described. It's, it's a crisis of reaching that point where you realize. Nothing I can say or do will convince my partner that I'm right.

Like I can't change this person and you kind of hit that realization in whatever way you do, but at that point you can kind of open yourself up to the idea of well, then maybe the only person I can control, the only person I can make changes to is myself. Sounds so obvious, but before you, you adopt that line of thinking, it's really hard to grasp.

Her: Well, and it takes a long time to put that into practice because I mean, again, we've been married almost 20 years plus all of our family crap before that, that you just have all these. Natural, natural meaning, um, like intuitive responses that you don't think about that your body and your brain just go to.

And, and at first you have no idea that's where you are. And even when your spouse so kindly might try and point that out to you, it just makes it worse,

Zach Spafford: you

Her: know? And so it takes a long time to A, be able to see clearly that, Oh, I am triggered. Oh, I am not in a rational frame of mind to be talking to you about this.

Oh, I need to take a step back for a minute. Oh, Tim this is causing me, trouble, you know, and, and finding language and for my spouse, I mean, our trouble was never that we didn't love each other. Yeah. You know, it was, it was just. Not having any good examples of how to function well, you know?

Zach Spafford: Yeah. You were taking what you had learned as a, as children and as growing up, as you learned those things, you use those in your own relationship and they weren't really making either of you happy. And you had seen probably in your parents relationships that those, those things didn't make them happy either.

But you, but I think the big difference here is that. There's a difference between seeing what the problem might be and being able to do anything about it. If you don't have the skillset to do something different, then how do you do that?

Her: Well, and it was a long time of building trust because I still remember I wrote it down.

You gave me homework. I don't remember what page it's on, but it was basically the homework for the week was say what you want. Like that's what

Zach Spafford: I

Her: wrote. It

Zach Spafford: seems like it seems like a, such a simple idea.

Her: Right? I know, but, and I was thinking, I remember as I write it, like, this is so stupid, but I found that to be so hard.

I mean, I remember, I still remember the first time that I actually did it. We were sitting in the kitchen, and we were talking about something that had to do with lunchboxes for the kids, and it was something of whether we should put an ice, Thing in their lunchbox and Sean had asked me what I thought and just instinctively I was, I just lied basically, like, because you do, you learn that you're just, you just say you're dishonest to keep the peace all the time.

And I was like, well, that's not actually what I think. I think that we should put an IC in their lunchbox. And so I just kind of, my body freaked out. I took a deep breath and I was like, Tim. I really think we should put an IC in their lunchbox. And Tim was like, oh, all right, you know, no problem.

And it's just that over and over and over again, learning that this is not a scary thing, but my body thinks it is.

They run everything they're going to say through a filter of what is the thing that my spouse wants me to say?

Her: Yeah, we both do that.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. But it sounds like it's not, well, it sounds like not doing that has been so powerful for you guys.

Him: Yeah, yeah, we've been learning own, own your own thoughts, own your own position and make sure it's something that you can stand behind while at the same time being open to your blind spots and being open to seeing things as they really are instead of how you want to see them.

Right.

Her: Well, I mean, just to be clear, like our, our lives are no less hard. You know, the problems haven't gone away.

Zach Spafford: Yeah,

Her: it's just, we're able. To talk about them in calm, rational, not freaking out ways.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, your ability has gotten stronger. You've become more capable in the face of the realities that you face that are never going to go away.

I mean, this is, to me, one of the most important principles of the work that we do. You know, a lot of times people focus in on how do I eliminate triggers or how do I eliminate this problem area within my life? It's very, it's very unlikely that you're going to be able to. Eliminate external influences, unless and until you move to a tiny little island where no one, where nothing exists, but you and the food you need.

Right. And so the reality that we all need to get behind is I have to get more capable. And the more capable I am, the more I can say what I mean, without worrying about the, the, you know, my partner losing themselves or getting disorganized or dysregulated, um, the more I can actually decide. What choices I want and own those choices from an honest position, not so much from a hiding position, the more likely I am to be the person that I want to be.

And that then reflects in the way that I show up in the world. And, and, you know, it's interesting what you, I think you two are describing is I like my spouse more. Because I like me more than I used to. And the way that I interact with my spouse, I like that more as well.

Him: Yeah, I agree with that. I think having, being able to live in your own shoes more comfortably allows you to bring a better self to the relationship, which makes all the hard things of relationships a little bit easier to deal with. And to Mary's point, you know, you feel like you're more on the same team.

When

Zach Spafford: you guys were looking for a solution, why did you pick this one? What made you choose this conversation?

Him: Um, I was, uh, I was drawn to Zach's good looks. His charismatic voice. His very

Zach Spafford: manly beard.

Her: His craftsmanship skills with the beautiful wall behind him.. Very aesthetically pleasing and calming.

Him: You know, it, it doesn't take many podcasts or very many interactions to kind of get a feel for what a content creator is, is trying to develop and trying to produce and trying to do for people.

And, and just, I think Zach, you espouse many of the same values that we do. And I guess what really stood out was,

whether you call it scientific or objective, I just, I felt like you had really given a lot of thought to how, how do humans Um, grow up and mature in, in the area of handling feelings and negative emotions. And, I don't know, your story really resonated with me as well, Zach. Just think there are a lot of men out there, and perhaps women too, who face some extremely challenging circumstances that they come by honestly.

Zach Spafford: Mary, when you think about, you know, why you chose this, I'm, I imagine at least some of it was driven by Tim, uh, but you know, as you look back and you go, was this the right decision?

Like, what are your thoughts there?

Her: Yeah, I absolutely do think that, um, I remember when Tim came to me and said, Hey, I found this coach. And I was like, really, a coach? You couldn't even find a therapist. Um, it was, it was funny, but no, he showed me your content. And I was, I mean, again, we were at that point where I was like, I don't want a divorce.

I don't want to give up on this. I want to be able to find a way to make it work. And. Sure. Let's try something.

Zach Spafford: So when you think about Tim's struggle direct, you know, specifically with pornography, I think that was kind of this, like, it was kind of the fulcrum. Oftentimes pornography is the, the, the leverage that it takes to get to coaching, but it's not always, I mean, obviously you guys were in a crisis kind of situation where it was either divorce or we move on.

But when you think specifically about Tim's. struggle with pornography and its impact on you. What changed in your approach to that and, and your sense of, you know, I think, Tim, you haven't, you've had a pretty good track record over the last few, uh, months, almost a year, right?

Her: Yeah,

Zach Spafford: and if you think about, You know, what's going on for Tim and how that impacted you prior to doing this work and how it might impact you if there were a moment where Tim makes a mistake.

What's the difference for you at this point?

Her: Are you asking me?

Zach Spafford: Mary? Yep.

Her: Um, sorry. That was a lot of That's a really long question, and I'm trying to remember all the pieces of it.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, easy version. When you think about Tim looking at porn, then versus now, how has your approach to this problem changed?

And it's, and how has your, how has your sense, Tim's behavior on you changed, right? Any impact that it might've had previously?

Her: So, in the beginning, when we first started with you, um, I think the catalyst was We couldn't progress in our relationship because every time Tim had a split, it caused this massive, massive rupture, this big problem.

And so for us, it was like, okay, well, if we can solve this pornography thing, then maybe we can gain some solid footing where we could actually work on some relationship things. Not a bad mindset to begin with, right? But it, when we were thinking about it backwards. Um, but for me in the beginning, every time Tim would have a slip.

I very much identified with that, that I felt like it was my fault, that I wasn't good enough, that I should have done X, Y, Z better. I should be a better wife. I should be a better lover. I should be all the things, right? And just, and, and also combined with he must not want me, you know, this, this porn must be so much better than, than me.

And I, Not good enough that way either. And, and also that stuff is gross and I don't want it in our sex life or our bedroom. And, and I feel violated even though I didn't do anything and that's not fair. And you know, there's, there's all sorts of personal things, which makes sense, especially given the faith tradition and that we belong to and what is taught to girls growing up about pornography.

But, um, I felt like through this process, it was instrumental to learn that what Tim decides to do with his time is Tim's issue. And I,

in many cases, don't necessarily have anything to do with that. Not to say that I don't have an impact on our relationship and how Tim feels, but, but it, it became so much less about me. And so that when Tim would have a slip, my response went from, how dare you? I'm so hurt. And I don't want to see you for a few days or a week or whatever.

I have my own vices. And it's not porn, but they're arguably in some ways just as damaging. Yeah. You know, and lots of people do. And that was something I had never considered. So, I don't know if that answers your question.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, I think it does. I think, you know, I think it's clear your sense of self is no longer tied to what's going on for Tim and your capacity to deal with this.

It is so much bigger, so much more full, and your ability to just choose the relationship and not necessarily make it about you, which is tough. It's really, it is a difficult concept to do. And I think you're exactly right. You know, the things that we've been taught growing up about our sexuality really do impact the way that we treat our relationships.

And so I think, you know, just growing through that process is, is important. It's really been extraordinary for you, Tim. What are your thoughts as, you know, as Mary has shifted in the way that she approaches this? What have you, what have you seen for yourself?

Him: It's a good question. And I have a lot of thoughts.

I think it is a lot of fun to listen to a professional athlete or a professional musician talk at a high level about their career and about how they've achieved all that they've achieved. But what you can never really see fully is the thousands, the millions of trainings that they've been through and the things that they've learned every step of the way.

And I, I think that applies with anyone's growth. And as I've been doing this work of understanding myself better and understanding how to stand on my own two feet emotionally, you do, even though the changes feel imperceptible at times, you do come out the other end going, Wow, I, I am a different person.

And I know how to, how to deal with my own emotions without feeling like Mary has to be happy with me, or if she's having a bad day, I can still be solid. And if I at times feel like she may not be investing in our relationship the way I would want her to, or, you know, pick your poison, um.

That that's okay and it's not really about me. And so the desire to turn to something like pornography to deal with those issues, I, I have, I have so much better tools now. And the desire to use some of those more destructive behaviors, which feel terrible, um, that desire is gone. And of course it could come back, but I still have tools to deal with it.

So.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. And I think that that's really a good, just kind of an indicator, right? There's this, you know, a lot of times these programs out there, they're like, stop porn in five minutes by X. Right. And, and the truth is, you know, as people, we generally tend to wax and wane in our reality. We generally tend to, you know, sometimes we forget the tools that are available to us.

And I think your, your sense of self, right, which is, yeah. I'm okay. I have these tools. I can utilize these tools. And when I utilize these tools, that's how I feel best. But I also recognize that at some point in the future, I might make a mistake again. And I'm not, and I might choose something to just get quick validation in order to manage my sense of self.

And that's a really big difference.

Him: It is. And, and the journey, it might start with. Stopping some of the negative patterns. And I've heard a lot of podcasters and content creators talking about all the negative patterns. And it's important to identify them and to kind of intervene and intercept those before they get too far along the road.

But part of this work is also being able to replace those negative behaviors with more positive ones. And. These tools not only help you develop more capacity to see your partner more clearly, but those same skills help you see yourself more clearly. And as you see each other more clearly, it becomes so much easier to love them better.

And it's not just about loving Mary so that she'll love me back, it's about loving Mary well. And as I do that better, I can love myself well. There's just a virtuous cycle in all of that skill development.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Well, it sounds like that's probably the biggest thing that's really shifted for you guys. Is this, you went from a negative downward spiral to a virtuous cycle of being able to build each other up.

It's not perfect. No, we

Her: are still learning how to do that well.

Him: We will for a while, but where a fight or an argument, um, a year ago would have led to hours, days, and sometimes weeks. Of bad

Her: feelings. Yeah,

Him: we call it walking on eggshells. Just this very careful We can't be ourselves around each other anymore to an argument now sometimes We can be good coming out the other end of that argument

Her: Well, I I don't know.

I wouldn't call them arguments anymore I mean, we never really argued but I feel like just us being honest.

Zach Spafford: Yep

Her: Um, we're able to tolerate the honesty

Zach Spafford: And I want to point out that that is such a huge shift. Most people are not very good at tolerating honesty. We want people to reflect to us what we expect and what we want. And being capable of just dealing with that honesty, that is intimacy. Even if you don't agree. And I think another thing that it sounds like you've let go a lot of is we have to agree.

Her: Yes, that was a huge thing. Yep.

Him: And there's still a pull. There's still a pull to be right and to agree on everything. And yeah, so it's, it's still a daily, got to make sure we stay on top of it, but we're learning.

Zach Spafford: So Mary, what would you, if you, if you were, uh, to sit in front of a thousand women who have exactly the problem that you had,

Her: they're

Zach Spafford: in exactly the same place that you were in a year ago.

What would you say to them? What advice would you give them?

Her: Take Zach's program.

Zach Spafford: Say that again?

Her: Take Zach's program. Sign up for Zach's courses.

Zach Spafford: Brilliant. Yeah. No better endorsement.

Her: Um, that's a rough question because Here, here is my takeaway. I feel like especially,

especially someone coming from a situation like mine where

you've been trained to, to just deal with so much, you know, to live in the dirt, and that's normal, and it's okay, and it's, it's normal for people to treat you badly, and it's normal to, what is the word, the opposite of separate. I Yes, where it's normal to be enmeshed. That's what it means to love someone, is that you are 100 percent enmeshed in their lives, and whatever disagreements happen that break that false sense of unity crushes your world, and you don't even realize that's where you're, where you're at.

Seriously.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. I, the term we coaches use a lot is it's pretty difficult to read the label from inside the bottle.

Her: Yes. Well, and I remember a specific coaching call that was really not fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where that reflection was really hard to see because you have this image of yourself of, and, and Tim and I both grew up in this family where we were the good ones, right?

We were the ones who didn't make any waves. We were the ones who solved all the problems who were mommy and daddy's helper. And, um, and to have that reflection of you actually do cause problems here. And let me lay them out for you. That was not very nice. That sent me into my closet for at least a day.

And I'm not someone who generally cries or gets upset about stuff. So that was, that was rough, but you know, kudos to Zach. That was very necessary.

Zach Spafford: I sometimes, I sometimes get, I hated you, but once I saw what you were saying, I knew you were right. And that's, that's a very unpleasant place to be because I, you know, I, I like positive feedback too. I never like it when people are like, I'm mad at you because I don't want people to be mad. But I also, uh, you know, part of the process is sometimes saying things that you don't want to hear.

Unfortunately.

Her: I think I was so upset that I skipped our next coaching call. I

Zach Spafford: remember this. I remember this, uh, this incident. So I know exactly what you're talking about and you did.

I don't think Mary's up for it this week. And you know, that's what it looked like.

Her: Yeah, it was, it was very unpleasant. And I found my notes from that day too. Um, but again, if someone is looking for this kind of change, I mean, there's books you can read, but. But I don't, again, I don't know what, unless you have someone who's smacking you in the face like that.

I don't know how to get there because yeah, I loved your analogy that it's hard to read the label from inside the bottle. It's just, it's just so hard to see what you don't know. And it's so hard because you have your spouse. Who's telling you all these things, but you're just so practiced at, well, you're delusional and you just, you are seeing through your own rose colored glasses and let me tell you all the ways that you have problems.

So how the heck can you tell me what I'm doing wrong? And, and it all sounds so reasonable and, and I'm learning to stand up for myself. So I have to tell you, sweetheart, that, um, thank you for your opinion, but you obviously don't see clearly enough, you know, so that's, I think where the coaching comes in.

Super helpful.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. And it's never. It's never easy to see ourselves clearly, um, unless we practice it.

Her: Well, and also I will say that, um, the name of the podcast is Thrive Beyond Pornography. So as the spouse, I came into this being like, Exhibit A, here's the problem. He's the one doing the porn. I am happy to be present while you tear him to shreds and be like, oh, that was so hard.

So yeah, it's, it's, that was, that was super fun.

Zach Spafford: I love it. Tim, as you look back and you look at somebody who's in the same place where you are, what would you tell them? I've been

Him: waiting for this question. Um, I would start by saying you probably feel alone and that no one understands what you're feeling and it's okay to feel that way, but there are a number of people who want to help, Zach included.

You have all the power over yourself. And whether your spouse wants to take coaching or not, you can get a coach. And whether your spouse wants to talk about it or not, you can find someone to talk to about it. And whether You're going to be judged or criticized or ridiculed for the steps that you are trying to take to make your life better.

Um, you get to take them. I would also say that

I would ask you, what, what are you willing to give to make your life better? Are you willing to give up some of your ego, some of your, uh, self centeredness, some of your, uh, desire to just. I just want to be in control of my life, which is a good desire, but you have to, part of the work is understanding what you can control and what you can't.

Um, I think so often we're willing to throw money at an issue and it still doesn't make it a whole lot of change. Um, you know, can you reach that place? Is the crisis big enough for you that you're willing to just say, look, I don't know if I'm right or wrong. I'm just willing to learn and try and, you know, try something new.

Was it, was it Einstein that was, uh, attributed as saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? It might have been, yeah. It might have been. If you want different results, be willing to try something new. Whether it feels woo woo, or feels strange, or new, or completely crazy, just be willing to see things in a new way.

Zach Spafford: I love that. I love that. And I love you guys. I mean, I've, I've really enjoyed going on this journey with you. It's been fascinating and fun, and sometimes very sad and sometimes very hard. And it's, I think on the, on the other side of this, you're seeing where how you can thrive, not just Survive, not just solve one problem, but really like we like each other and we can, we can thrive together.

I think that's

Him: true. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're not at the top of the mountain, but we've got the hiking poles and we've got enough water now to make some shoes. Yeah.

Zach Spafford: And I think, I think, you know, how to get there, not just theoretically, but you like, you can see, Oh, I know the path. I see it. I love it. Well, thank you guys so much for sharing your story.

I really appreciate it. And I know that the people out there who are listening will really appreciate it because in hearing your story, there is hope. And too often when people are struggling with this, uh, in their relationship or as individuals that they're, they feel like there's no hope. It's like, I've tried everything and I can't, I can't seem to solve this.

So I might as well give up.

Her: Definitely in that place.

Him: Yeah. And your story doesn't have to be our story for this work to make a difference.

Her: Well,

Zach Spafford: Tim, Mary, thank you so much. And for those of you listening, I will talk to you next week.