In this episode of the Real Life. Real Kitchen. podcast, host Zoe Willis speaks with wealth mindset and self-leadership coach Kayleigh Provins about the intricate relationship between money, family dynamics, and personal beliefs. They explore how societal norms and gender roles shape our perceptions of money, the importance of communication in financial discussions, and practical tips for fostering a positive money mindset. Kayleigh shares her journey into wealth coaching and emphasizes the need for gratitude in financial interactions, while also addressing the emotional aspects of money management.

Welcome to the Real Life. Real Kitchen Podcast with your host, Zoë F. Willis, English mother-of-many, Mum Mentor, and your host at this weekly gathering of real talk, real food, and real family life.

👤 About Kayleigh Provins

I help established female business owners reconnect with who they really are beneath the pressure, release the emotional and mindset blocks keeping them stuck, and lead their business from a place of deep self-trust and alignment.

My mission is simple: To empower women in business to create a life where success feels natural, decisions are led by self-trust, and abundance flows in all forms. I believe true wealth isn’t something you achieve, it’s something you are. It’s about living in alignment with your values, desires, and inner power.

🌐 Where to Find Kayleigh Provins

1. Website: https://kayleighprovins.com/
2. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kayleighprovins_
3. Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kayleighprovins/
4. Podcast The Wealthiest You: https://shorturl.at/vbaJp

🧰 Links & Resources Mentioned

📝 Command the Chaos – The Mum Life Management Planner

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https://realliferealkitchen.myflodesk.com/socials

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🌍 Where Else You Can Find Me

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Takeaways:

1. Kayleigh Provin emphasizes that true wealth is not merely a financial achievement, but rather an intrinsic state of being that aligns with one's values and desires.
2. Understanding the emotional roots of financial behavior is crucial, as many women's fears around money stem from historical societal structures that limit autonomy.
3. The conversation around money within families must shift from mere numerical assessments to deeper discussions about values, desires, and emotional experiences.
4. A significant barrier to financial confidence among women is the pervasive belief that they are not capable or knowledgeable enough to manage finances effectively.
5. To foster a healthy relationship with money, one must cultivate gratitude for financial resources rather than viewing them solely as burdens or responsibilities.
6. Regular and open communication about finances, grounded in understanding and curiosity, is essential for couples to navigate their financial dynamics harmoniously.

Foreign.

Hello everybody and welcome to the Real Life Real Kitchen podcast.

A podcast for curious mums who am interested in the big topics of food, family and community.

And speaking of family, we have our first potential interruption.

It is Real Life Real Kitchen here.

I would like to introduce this week's guest, once my small child comes in, Kayleigh Provins.

Kayleigh provins of kayleighprovins.com Kayleigh is a wealth, mindset and self leadership coach for women in business.

Now a lot of the mums are going to be going, Zoe, that's lovely.

But why, but why have you got a lady for women in business?

What has this got to do with mums?

Now my.

I have a bit of a personal interest in household budgeting money, kind of the ideas we have around money.

And I have a whole heap of even esoteric questions, abstract questions that Kayleigh, I think is going to be able to answer and pull apart for us.

So this one is for all the mums out there who are going, why can't I and my husband get it together in terms of household budget?

Why is it we're struggling to kind of be united in aims?

Why is it we don't feel like grownups?

Because that is a theme that does pop up amongst a lot of couples and families.

So this is going to be the first in a series of money podcasts I'm going to have.

But I wanted to talk about temperament, character and a real kind of discussion about these intangible things before we go onto the practicalities in future podcasts about money.

So Kayleigh, over to you.

How, tell us, tell us, how did you come here?

What's happened?

Yeah, so I came to be doing what I do in quite a roundabout way, I suppose.

I've always been interested in money from quite a young age and always interested in investing.

And you know, I started saving and investing money quite young and I always had this kind of interest in what, what wealth was, what accumulation of money meant for life and self and family and career and business and all of those things.

What age was this?

Starting around 17, 18.

Okay.

So a bit.

Yeah, yeah.

And I mean I was always very interested in money from much younger pocket money and things.

Money, my mum would say, like, oh, you, we could give a portion of our pocket money back so that it could grow.

So I was, you know, those kind of concepts were introduced to me quite young.

Yeah.

And, and then I kind of went off in my, on my way and lived this life kind of running away from all of the normal structures of Career and financial planning for the future and all of those things.

Yeah.

The way of it.

In our late teens, early 20s and.

In my early 30s, found myself embarking on a career in personal finance.

And it was during that time that I really started to get curious about the idea of money being the main thing tied to wealth in our society.

Because what I was seeing was I was managing lots of very wealthy people's portfolios and yet I was seeing them talking about the same issues and the same problems with money as people around me.

Growing up, I experienced living in a, in a working class area.

So I started getting really curious and.

Sorry, just to interrupt.

So you were doing.

So we, we at this point, early 30s, you're working in the financial sector and it is asset management, essentially what you're up to.

And advising clients where best to put their money for it to grow, be tax efficient, all of this sort of thing.

Yes.

With a heavy, a heavy focus on the tax efficiency.

Because I was based in Europe helping expats to be most tax efficient with their money.

And, and then I realized this career path wasn't for me.

I found it very toxic industry, very male driven, very structural and strategic.

And actually underneath it all, all about.

Not really about helping people, just about how much money could you make from people.

Yeah.

So almost like it was like counterintuitive to me.

I was like, this isn't really.

And maybe I'm not speaking on the entire industry.

Maybe it was just the company that I was in.

It didn't sit well with my values and my beliefs about how money and wealth could be handled and spoken about.

Can I just pull that apart?

So was it.

There was an exploitative element from these, these, these men who were working or your colleagues.

Yes.

They wanted to make as much money as possible.

Or, or maybe and, or it was almost a game and not seeing clients and companies as people.

Yes.

And so it was more of a. Yeah, numbers on a spreadsheet, bit of a game.

Very much lacking in the humanity.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay.

For me, yes.

You know, for me personally, that's how I felt about the situation.

Not to mention very toxic working environments, the expectations put on you and this kind of hustle culture.

Working 20 hours a day in order to, you know, commission only work.

So yeah, high octane environment that just didn't, it didn't fit with me.

And so very shortly after leaving that I launched my own business.

And to start with, it was very much around money mindset, Working with women to understand money and how it actually works to improve Their mindset and their understanding of money to improve their confidence with money.

And as I've grown and my business grew, I'm now more so on the side of the mindset rather than the practicality, which is kind of why I'm here today, to talk about all of that stuff that is so far in our subconscious and in our nervous system that we are not really aware that it's running the show when it comes to our relationship with money.

So you shifted from being big portfolios, wealthy people who, interestingly, have the same sense of fear that could be gone tomorrow.

I'd leave this house, even though on paper they're really fine.

Yeah.

And then you've moved to women.

Women and money.

It's quite an interesting thing because coming back to your earlier point, money being a positive thing, it's usually the women, the mums, who are saying, well, we need the shoes, we need the food, we need the education for the children, we need, you know, these things that are kind of good for society.

Yes.

So what is it?

What's the different outlook?

Women and fear of money.

Yes.

Is it more so in women than it is in men?

A fear of money?

Absolutely.

Where has this come from?

Why is this so this has come from women not having a choice around money.

So it's come from.

And I don't know when it started because we've had a conversation previously about go back a really, really long way.

And that was when money wasn't such a.

How do I want to say this necessary part of society.

So when it was more about bartering, about swapping, about, you know, taking.

Taking charge of a.

Of a community, women really took charge of that.

Women were in those.

Those roles.

As society grew and changed and money became more of a.

Of a.

Of a structure that you couldn't live without, it was the men that went to work, so it was the men that earned the money and then it was the men that dictated the money.

Not just individually in individual households, but societally wise.

Women didn't control finances, they didn't earn independently.

But more than that, they didn't have legal or financial autonomy.

Yeah, yeah.

That didn't.

That didn't keep up because there was this big shift in the Industrial Revolution in Britain.

Exactly.

Before that, it had been households.

I think Mary Harrington has written a lot about this.

But within the household, the women would be contributing still, so you would be seen as an economic unit.

But then with the Industrial Revolution, you're taken away from the house.

Your ability to earn, earn means you have to be in the factories and earning in that capacity.

That's when things shifted.

And you're, you're talking about kind of the legal status of women, the tax situation.

All of this didn't keep up.

It didn't keep up.

So women were then.

And, and this is where the trauma that women of today are suffering with.

This is, this is where it came from.

It, it was that switch in women going out to work but still not having any control of the finances, any say, any independence around it.

And so you had this imbalance that then created this really heavy emotional charge in women of not having enough of feeling guilty for wanting more, of feeling anxious around spending money, of reliance on somebody else making the decisions, even though as women they were still holding all of the responsibility for the household running and none of the responsibility for the decisions on where the money went coming into the household.

Yeah, yeah.

A big vulnerability.

And I think what's, what's also interesting, I think there is a, I don't know if it's certainly a working class, but definitely a middle class silence, a British middle class silence around money.

Actually, I would say European silent round money.

You do not talk about it.

Yeah.

Within families.

You do not talk about it with your friends.

Although you're, you know, it's quite obvious.

Oh, that's a nice Lamborghini you've got.

You know, the signs are there, but there's never kind of frank conversations.

There's a lot of silence.

And because there is silence, there's a lot of shame.

A lot of shame.

And this is the thing that it's, it's mistaken for, like a mindset issue.

Oh, I just need to, like, get my mind around money.

I need to, you know, not believe that I'm no good at it or I'm, I'm no good with money.

It's a nervous system issue.

Like it's inherited, it's, it's in our DNA.

And women also battle with the idea of not being smart enough, even though they could be.

Which meant.

Yes.

Yeah.

When it comes to money, I don't know enough.

I'm not smart enough.

I haven't educated my, myself enough.

So it's like even more distancing ourselves and, and putting the onus back on the man.

Like, you're the person that's supposed to know about that.

I'm not educated enough to know about that.

So, you know, I'm, I'm just going to stay out of it.

Do you think?

Because there is also, if you talk about kind of stocks and shares and Investments.

There is this risk element to it.

Whereas if you read someone like Morgan Housel and his book on money and you're looking at the bigger picture over the course of 50 years of a lifetime of investing, it's all quite gentle.

Yes, there'll be crashes, but that's okay.

It'll pick up.

And this is where there is such a lack of education.

Yeah.

And women more than men.

It's going slightly off topic here, but women, much more than men, rely on what they believe they are capable to do according to their qualifications, according to their experience.

There's some crazy statistic that like 90% of men will apply for a job where they meet 0 of the criteria.

They'll just go for it.

Whereas 90% of women will.

Won't apply for a job unless they meet 100% of the criteria.

Wow.

So that fundamental difference in how we perceive our ability and our capability is also a barrier that we put up between us and our ability to manage money and understand money.

Yeah.

Gosh, I've.

I've been reading a book recently.

Oh.

Steven Silberger, I think it is.

And it's something like the money culture of the Jews.

It's something like that.

Really interesting.

Fascinating.

Talking about generational wealth, legacy and attitudes to money within families.

There's a really powerful moment in it as well.

And actually I had an interview with a lady Felicia Linsky.

She's earlier in the podcast list a Jewish background as well.

We had a conversation about the kind of cultural heritage element there off camera.

But it's so interesting, this idea of, you know, the money could go tomorrow.

Everything could go tomorrow for obvious reasons.

But if you've got the knowledge that can never be taken away from you.

So you could lose everything tomorrow, but in a year or two, because you know how this works, you can build it up again.

Yeah.

And that's another reason why the majority of.

Of hugely successful people have been bankrupt more than once.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They've.

They've gone.

They don't hold a fear.

They.

They know.

They know what to do.

They know how it works.

And losing it isn't scary.

How wonderful to have that freedom and to go.

Money really is a tool.

It's a tool.

It's not negative or positive.

It's a tool and it can be rebuilt.

Yeah.

And whatever situation you are in, this too shall pass.

Yes.

As long as you get your schmozel together.

As long as You.

We can't just sit around waiting for money to fall in our lap.

But, yeah, it's.

It's one of the things that fascinates me most about.

You talk about, like, family structure and money and wealth within the family structure is the mindset that is able to be passed down in a wealthier household.

Because there isn't this attachment to money being the thing that provides the safety that is the attachment in lower income households.

Because of course it is.

Because it's the lack of money or appearance thereof that means you're fretting about food on the table.

You're fretting about the kids having the right shoes and the right clothes for school and all of those things.

And that is passed down generation on generation on generation.

So when people say that children born into wealthy households have an advantage because of the money, it's not actually because of the money at all.

It's because of the mindset that that is able to be built in an environment where money doesn't equal safety.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Gosh, that's very interesting.

So, yeah, very much it is about a family culture.

It's not about whether or not you've got loads on the table or not.

I heard really powerful interview.

I think it was Andy McNabb.

He's the author of.

He writes kind of military escapades.

And I think he was in the SAS and things like this.

Okay.

Grew up in real poverty, like, single mom, terrible.

But actually has the most beautiful positive memories of his childhood.

So his mother was so poor she could barely afford the food.

But the special treat, they would get the little electric heater in the living room.

Bring it in.

She would cook on a saucepan, white bread, sugar and water.

Mix that up.

And she'd say, come on, we're gonna have teddy bear's porridge today.

And she would make kind of a feast and a treat.

And it was, you know, the situate horrific.

She had no idea what was happening.

But those moments were of safety, security.

She's like, you know, my boys are not gonna know how terrible this is.

But this moment is a pure love, pure joy.

Teddy bear's porridge.

Yeah.

I mean, years later, he's realized, but at the time, he had no idea.

And it was just amazing.

Amazing.

So family culture and that kind of.

You can apply that.

Yes, very much to money and holding it lightly.

Yeah.

So it's really interesting.

There's that kind of generational social piece to it.

Yeah.

Because there's also that social side of the working class.

And sometimes you Know, middle class, that money would solve all our problems.

Like if we only had more money, then we wouldn't have all of these, these troubles and these struggles.

But the truth of that situation is with that mindset, what happens is no matter what money increases, pay rises, come into the family or, you know, teenagers start earning money and bringing money into the family, the spending increases along with it because there's no understanding of how money actually works.

So you end up with this, you know, increased income, increased lifestyle, and no matter how much that lifestyle increases that there's still no more money, it's still ending each month on zero.

So you talk about how money works.

So it's not just a spreadsheet with numbers on it and say, here's my savings, here's my income, here's my bills.

Definitely not.

Can you talk to me about when you say how money works?

Talk to me.

It's very woo.

I'm going to go very woo, woo right now.

Go woo, madam.

Go for it.

So money is energy is an energetic exchange.

And so if our energy around money is always of lack, is always of fear, is always of stress, then that energy is what is reciprocated, that is what we receive, that is what we see, that is what we focus on.

If we're able to switch that energy and switch that energy into what the energy of money actually is, which is actually gratitude, which makes total sense if you think about it, then we're able to shift that energy and then money stops having that hold over us.

It stops being the reason or reason not behind everything and the ability for it to flow, for it to be available for all the different avenues for it to be, to be available to come into our lives, open up.

So is that almost you've got a nine to five job and there is an attitude of this is I can only go for promotions, this is how much I can earn.

That's it.

You're quite no, how am I going to do this?

Whereas if there is a gratitude and an opening up, you can see, oh, if I, you know, throw in some investments, if I, I've got skills, there could be a side hustle, I could do this or I can go, you know, the skills I've got means I could have a job with more money.

It sort of opens up the creativity.

Is that kind of an element of it?

Absolutely.

And this is what women are naturally able to bring to the table.

That intuition, the recognition of patterns that aren't necessarily serving the family or the long term thinking, you know, the relational awareness between what's happening within the finances, within the structure.

And that energy allows us to spot opportunities early.

To know when it's time to invest or when it's time to expand.

You know, to understand the timing of things and the flow of life, rather than just seeing it as a set of numbers.

Yeah, yeah.

Of black and white.

Yeah.

It's much more gray than one would like us to believe.

And that also, I mean, that's deeply hopeful because that suggests a real complementarity when it comes to husbands and wives, mothers and fathers.

That, that, yes, you do need.

You need both.

You need, you need your spreadsheet ninja, but you also need that kind of slightly woo.

Bigger picture.

I feel.

You do?

I absolutely do.

I've got to.

I can't describe it.

I've got a gut feeling.

I've got a gut feeling.

Gotta feel.

I've had a few of those over the years proved right later.

But that's by the bike.

Yeah.

Now, how does one.

I'm just wondering what, what to tackle next because one of the.

Do we talk about communication between those two kind of sides?

Actually, no, we are going to talk about temperament.

I'd like to talk about how different people see money.

Because if you look into kind of the big household budgeting, I mean, there's an America's Dave Ramsey.

Oh, what's the name of the fella in England?

Yeah.

You know the chap in England who's all about the money.

Yeah.

I've got his app and I read on, you know, how to get discount for Aldi and things.

So I've got his app.

Oh, what's his name?

Money expert.

Money expert.

I can see his face.

Yeah.

Martin Lewis.

That's it.

Martin Lewis.

And they are very much.

Or the tips you get in all of this.

I mean, it's very much.

Sit down, get the spreadsheet, get the numbers, put it into the boxes every day, ideally, make sure tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

There is a very kind of practical boom, boom, boom, boom, boom element to it, which is necessary.

Yes.

However, it's useful, but it's incomplete.

It feels a bit because.

So I'll give you an example.

I have a relation who she needs.

She's an older lady, needs a lot of support.

But what is fascinating is that she doesn't understand money.

It literally.

She can have thousand euro in her hand in coins or not coins, but in notes.

Means nothing.

It actually means nothing to her that there just isn't a concept of the abstract.

This is worth, you know, food.

This is worth it doesn't fit.

Needless to say, she's got support and is looked after.

I just like to say.

Yeah, and that is an extreme side of things.

But I do wonder that, as with everything, there is a spectrum of people who kind of can't quite conceive of money.

And then those who are very much.

Yep, I can see how it works.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Like that.

So could you speak a bit to that side of things?

Yeah.

So I think this is not so clearly defined as necessarily a masculine way and a feminine way of seeing things.

There are certainly different money belief systems that we carry.

And along with those money belief systems, there are also money personality types.

So somebody may have a belief system around money where it defines them.

Somebody might have a belief system around money whereby it's the solution to everything.

But those belief systems also go hand in hand with those personality types.

So you can have somebody who's a saver, who gets their control and controls their money by saving everything, by tightly controlling it, by tracking it, by restricting, by risk aversion.

You could have somebody that has the same belief about money, but.

But their personality type is a shopper.

So they've created a different, a different paradigm around their belief in that I can't be trusted with money, so I need to like, just get, get it away from me.

So they create a habit whereby they spend.

My mother calls that, she says they've got holes in their hands.

Yeah.

She's like, oh, that person got holes in their hands.

Yeah.

And so these, these different temperaments that people have around money.

There is so much underneath what is being portrayed out on the surface, all of the beliefs they hold about money, maybe that money makes people not very nice.

Money's evil.

Money solves all problems.

Money defines who I am and how good I am.

All of those things will then dictate how a person interacts with money.

But somebody that has all of those beliefs can sit next to somebody else who has all of those beliefs.

And it's not going to necessarily exhibit an external behavior in the same way, which is why it makes it so fascinating.

Because what happens with money and our relationship with money is it's parts of ourselves that don't trust ourselves with money.

I often refer.

Sorry, go on.

I was just going to say.

I was just thinking the spendthrift and the shopper, they both have fear in them.

They both don't trust themselves.

They both don't trust themselves.

So it's like they exhibit the behavior differently.

Yeah, I can't be trusted with money.

So I spend it.

I can't be trusted with money.

I better save it.

Yes.

So it's still fear.

It's this lack of fear.

It's this lack of trust.

Lack of trust that money's gonna be there, that they can trust themselves with money.

They can trust themselves to make financial decisions.

And when I talk about this specifically as a belief system, as a paradigm, I always, I always like to tell the story of imagining like a young child in toy store with their birthday money and they're taking ages to decide what toy they want.

And in that moment the parent turns around and says it's not that important, hurry up, we haven't got all day just to something seems harmless.

Maybe in the moment.

What happens in that moment is the part of that child that wants to be careful and thoughtful about their decisions.

Is.

Is told you're not safe.

It's not, it's not safe to do this.

It's not safe to be there.

So.

Well, two things can happen then.

Either that child creates a system whereby they hold onto it and they don't spend anything because they can't be trusted or that child creates a system whereby they spend everything without thinking about it.

Because I can't be trusted with this money.

I need it gone.

And understanding what's underneath people's behaviors with money is, is really where, where you start kind of understanding the, the, the why they're that way with money.

You know, the temperament and the, the feelings they have around money and their ability to navigate the world of money.

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The links in the show notes gives you a lot more compassion, doesn't it?

Loads more compassion.

Rather than seeing somebody as just frivolous or seeing somebody as, as being really strict and stringent and not allowing you to have fun or not allow, you know, allows you to realize that there is a whole lot more going on here and it's actually got nothing to do with the numbers that are on the spreadsheet.

Yeah.

At all.

Because if you are living in a really controlled, tracked and restricted financial environment, no amount of money is going to change that.

You're going to continue to live like that no matter what.

How do you if you are in a couple, how do you communicate the different needs?

If you've got, you know, I'm going to get my gender stereotypes out, but the wife is going out.

Needs.

I, you know, we need close to the children.

I need a break from the house.

Can we go away on holiday for a few days?

Can we save more?

I don't know.

Or I want better food for the children.

And then you have spreadsheet.

Who's going?

No.

Money needs to be put here, here and here and here so that bills are paid.

There's no space for that.

We can't do that.

Money, you know, computer says no, essentially, because this is the right way to do it.

I have the spreadsheet.

The money is put in all the places.

And the person who can see kind of the bigger picture, how do they kind of communicate that?

Because again, as I was saying earlier, sometimes it's like, I don't know why, but I need this.

How do we kind of unite in those situations?

And obviously, money as well can be quite charged.

People get very defensive and upset about it and, you know, you're the problem.

Why can't you do this?

Why aren't you spending more?

Why aren't you saving more?

Yeah.

Or even just not talked about at all.

Within.

Exactly.

So how does.

How do.

How do we kind of.

I suppose that's two parts to it.

First of all, how do we start communicating about money?

And then secondly, how do we bring these kind of.

To the slightly Woo.

Yeah.

To the practical.

Right brain meets left brain.

Yeah.

So first and foremost, your question being, how do we have these conversations?

We first of all have to start having these conversations.

Yes.

And not when things are at a point where a conversation needs to be had.

We have to start setting dates to talk about money.

That.

That's as.

As simple as it gets.

We have to be intentional about it.

We have to come at the conversation pretty strategically and rhythmically so that we're not having to have these conversations when it comes to the kids need this, or we should have a holiday and then it blows up because you're not seeing eye to eye.

And so starting to have conversations about money and starting from understanding what your partner's experience with money was growing up, like, really getting curious.

So, like, how was money spoken about when you grew up?

You know, how was it handled in the household?

What.

What do you feel your responsibilities are?

You know, really coming at it from a place of active listening where each side gets their opportunity to talk and the other person really actively listens.

To create some understanding of where each side is coming from.

And then regular conversations like it has to.

It can't be when the tax return's due once a year or, or when somebody wants something that, you know, costs more than is normally in the joint account that you don't need to discuss.

It has to be more frequent and more open and more from a more through a lens of intrigue and interest.

Curiosity on both sides.

So rather than judgment.

And I'm coming into this conversation because I want this out of it.

Yeah.

So you'd need to set ground rules.

Absolutely.

And if you feel that you're getting upset and cross, either of you are getting upset and cross, then we need to step away and come back to it.

Yes.

Because this needs to be a space where people can say things.

It's not immediately attacked on a personality level.

So it's really saying, okay, this is.

And we practice it and we keep coming back to it.

Yeah.

And it takes practice and it takes time.

But it's also the same as having intentional relationship check ins so that you don't hold things against each other or explode in a moment where it's just not appropriate or necessary to do so.

Yeah.

And because there is so much emotional charge around money a lot of the time, it is really important that we set these boundaries about these.

Around these neutral conversations.

So it's almost.

You would be starting off just having conversations about the money.

This is, you know, where I'm coming from.

Where are you coming from?

It's almost first steps I want to understand.

Then it say this is what I feel I need.

And for us as a family, what do you feel you we need as a family.

What do you feel your role is?

My role.

So you're having these conversations first, really kind of connecting on that level, becoming united on that level.

And then you unleash the spreadsheets and.

Then you're able to come at it from a different place.

If you don't have those conversations first and you don't open up a new level of understanding for each other and where each other is coming from, your conversations are only going to keep going in the same direction.

Yeah.

And they're only going to end up the same.

And the spreadsheets are always going to trigger things because it's all of a sudden black and white.

Yeah.

You've been spending too much on the credit card.

You've been spending too much there and.

It becomes a blame situation.

We can't go on holiday because you spent too much here or you know, you're telling me the kids can't have these new shoes because we need to put this money in this savings account over there.

And you don't really understand why that's over and why does it need to be there?

And it maybe doesn't need.

Need to be there, but emotionally for the other person, maybe it does need to be there.

To be there.

And it's really.

That's so powerful, Kayleigh, that just, it, it's flipping everything on its head rather than the, you know, sit down, get the credit cards out and cut them up and do all of that first.

And knowing it's not really.

It's not about the numbers.

No, it's not about the numbers.

The way somebody is managing their money is nothing to do with how much money you have.

Yeah, zero.

That's massive.

And I think, I think probably for the listeners, that's going to be a huge turnaround that you are starting off.

Don't get the money, don't get the figures involved.

Let's just start talking about it.

Emotional connection.

Maybe just like one glass of wine rather than five or six when you're having these conversations.

Yes.

Definitely.

And regular.

We're gonna do this every week.

So we're gonna do this every week over course of six to eight weeks and just really talking about this and what I feel we need and where I'm coming from.

My fears, you know, my joys, blah, blah, blah.

Yours your turn.

And then it's like right now we're gonna sit down knowing where we're both coming from, what our shared goals are, what our roles are.

Yeah, because definitely what our roles are as well.

Because the other side of the coin to women not feeling confident with money and not feeling like they have a say or a in in family finance or in the.

In a.

In a family structure.

On the other side of that coin is a man that potentially feels a heavy burden to provide.

Yeah, that ability to see the longer term is much more a feminine trait than a masculine trait.

So a man will look at a savings account and only see the money that is in it right now and only see the gap between what's in it and what he knows needs to be in it in order to provide for retirement or college or whatever it is.

A woman is much more softer in her outlook and much more able to see.

But darling, between then and then, I might go back to work, you might get a promotion, that money's gonna grow, we might sell a house.

There's all this other opportunity.

But maybe the pressure that the man feels ties him into those numbers and that the fear of how big that gap is.

Yeah.

Between what you currently have and what you know you want to have to provide for your family for however long you need to.

This also feeds in to.

It just suddenly makes me think a lot of families who.

A lot of mums would love to be at home with the children more, but feel the financial obligation, the financial pressure.

Not that I'm saying it's necessarily easy to make the sacrifices, but if you look at it like that to say, do you know what, it's just for a few years.

I could be going back working part time by the time the kids are teenagers, could have my own business.

I could be.

Things will change.

This too shall pass.

It will mean a period of quiet, but this too shall pass.

And that is a very.

Rather than thinking, this is the end of my career, we're never going to be able to afford anything.

We're going to be in penury by the time we're 65.

But actually, this is a season.

This is a season.

Wow.

And we can choose to live a different way.

Yeah.

And we're not.

Yeah.

For a short time.

And we're not trapped and defined by this.

No.

And that's.

But that's another belief that the life that you live and the money that you earn and the house that you live in and does define you.

And so if you're used to living a certain way and then maybe you can't do that anymore, then.

Then comes all that external pressure, what are people going to think?

And all of that noise when the reality of the situation, certainly from, from, from my perspective is that money is very little to do with the wealth that you have inside a family, from the experiences that you create.

And just like your story with the mum with the porridge and the kids are not going to remember, I, on the other hand, remember very strongly that money was a huge narrative in why I didn't see my father very much growing up because he couldn't afford to travel to see us.

And, you know, that was such a strong narrative.

But what that created in me was a belief that money meant I could get love.

So for so long I had this belief deep down that I didn't know was there until I did the work that.

Oh, gosh.

And that's why I would be so generous.

I would give money, I would buy things, I would pay for flights of people.

I would, you know, my sister was having a hard time, I would put her on a flight with her kid and fly her out to see me.

And never a question until I thought, these behaviors are interesting.

I wonder where this is coming from.

Yes.

And I'd.

I'd created this structure of beliefs that by having money and giving money it meant that people would love me because the reason my dad wasn't there for me was because he didn't have money.

But if he had money, then he would be there.

Right.

Ouch.

Yes.

Gosh.

So you just never know what's going on for somebody else until you have those conversations.

And yet we're told in order to successfully manage money, the only conversation we need to be having is how much money have we got?

What are our incomes, what are our outgoings, what should we be saving?

And that's all we need to know.

Yeah.

So that almost seems to be advice coming from somebody who has quite a lot of self confidence.

Or maybe they don't.

I was just going to say sort of self confidence within themselves.

Maybe not, but.

But yeah, this is how it works.

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

And it's fine.

And not imagining that there might be other ways of.

Ways of seeing things.

Yeah, I have a. Yeah, go on.

I was just gonna say.

And also not imagining or not leaving any space for the.

For why it's that way.

Like worse.

But yeah.

If we're so assured from.

And it.

It doesn't.

It for some people, maybe it's innate, but it comes from society.

It comes from all of the messages that we receive from a young age about opening bank accounts and saving and student loans and paying loans back.

And it's bad to be in debt.

And all of these things build up this idea that our ability to have money, grow money, keep money is all down to our practical abilities.

When in reality it's probably 10% practical, 90% mindset, energy, beliefs.

Yep.

And that side of things.

Now I have a question about.

Again, looking at couples separate bank accounts.

I have come across families in the past where the mother and the father, they keep things separate.

They're both working.

Then babies happen, but the mother is still expected to whatever bills she's meant to be doing.

Plus she's not working as much because she's got the babies.

They're.

I find this a bit problematic.

Yes.

I don't quite understand why there isn't the shed.

Because we are a.

We are on a mission, be it marriage, which I obviously think is kind of the best way.

We are a unit, we are a team.

Therefore it comes together because it is bigger picture, separate lives, separate monetary lives, yet living Together as a family.

For me, it doesn't look that positive.

I could be wrong.

Please.

I. I happen to agree with you.

I think that it's not a sustainable approach for a family with children.

If you're in a relationship or a marriage and a partnership where there isn't children or you've separated and then you've met later on in life and you don't want to mix all your stuff up again.

It works.

Maybe it is practical.

Yeah.

For me and my partner, we don't have kids.

We've never had a joint account, We've never opened one, but we manage from a very joint place.

Yeah.

So you're having the conversations.

This needs to happen.

We need to put things together.

And sometimes he earns more, sometimes I'm earning more.

So the responsibilities shift between one and the other.

It's very fluid.

However, my situation doesn't work for everybody.

But what you're talking about, I actually couldn't agree with you more.

And I've also seen and hear a lot that household stuff is split 50.

50.

Mm.

Yeah, I've seen that.

And I've just gone, ooh, yes, yes.

And all these kind of agreements where one pays for, you know, the.

The mortgage and the bills and the food and the other's responsible for, you know, the lifestyle and the.

The problem with that is.

And what I've seen and what I've experienced through many conversations with many different people is it causes conflict because there's almost this secrecy.

There's this like, but I can't afford that.

Or you can't afford that, or, well, what are you spending your money on, then?

Well, what.

I don'.

Why?

You're saying that you need more for this when we should have enough for this.

And I just think when money is concerned, transparency, openness, communication is the only way forward, because otherwise you end up in a situation where it becomes frictional when it's so unnecessary.

If you're a family and you're married or you're together and you're having children, my question would be, what is it that you don't want to relinquish control over?

It's something that I do find very difficult when people are adamant that, no, we have to keep our finances separate.

And sometimes it comes from women not wanting to relinquish control of their bank account because they don't trust their partner.

I have come across that.

I also know of women who's.

They've got exes who just took everything.

Yep.

I also know men who have had women Take everything.

So there is a real kind of.

Well, I've been really scarred here, but I also struggle a bit with the kind of just the realities the woman is looking after the small children as those sleepless nights, even if she is working, you know, throw her a fricking bone here, can she?

All of those habits and all of everything that we're talking about is all coming from a place of fear.

Yeah.

So have those conversations understand why that person wants it that way or feels like it should be that way.

And I guarantee you, once there's an understanding, you'll realize it doesn't actually need to be that way.

Yeah, yeah.

That, that, that it does.

That it can be one.

One part, one agreement, family together, making decisions, making choices, and not this kind of having to percentage.

Percentage everything all the time.

And, and constantly adding things up in your head.

Well, okay, well, he paid the rent and the bills, and so that adds up to this.

And what have I paid for this month now?

Or is that even that?

And I'm not sure if that's it, because also the workload in the house probably isn't even either.

And what are you going to start doing?

Keeping, like, a tally of everything that you do.

And it.

Because underneath it all that really.

That's what you're saying, if you're keeping everything separate is you're saying, like, I don't trust you.

I don't trust the situation.

And I want to keep a tally and I want to keep, like, score.

Going to keep score.

And that's not what I mean.

Relationships, they go ups and downs.

There are moments of great vulnerability where somebody needs to be looked after in different.

And I was talking to the other.

Day, and would you hold that against somebody?

Yeah.

And say, well, you've been sick, you've had a baby.

Why aren't you up and doing things after four weeks after childbirth?

What's wrong with you?

You know, it just.

It just.

Oh, yeah, it's interesting.

It's really fascinating.

No, I have.

I've found from this conversation just the whole kind of working on the temperament, the reasons why, the relational aspect for a good chunk before you get the spreadsheets out and so that you both know where you're coming from, what your goals are, what your aims.

I think that's.

That's a really huge piece of the.

Puzzle, because what happens when.

When two sides of a family come together and have those conversations is more than just understanding each other and potentially working through their own belief systems that don't work for them anymore.

And creating a new system that works right now for both of you in your life.

What you're also doing is creating an environment where children feel safe, where desire is allowed, where children are allowed to desire things and not fear that you can't ask for that we don't have the money.

You know that.

Where wealth isn't feared.

And it.

And you, by having those conversations, you're breaking those cycles of scarcity, you're breaking the cycles of silence, and you're breaking the cycles of shame around money just by having a different conversation.

Are you able.

I'm also thinking in these conversations, again, ground rules, but asking gently, what is your perception of me?

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

Now this is my perception of you.

Said as lovingly as possible.

Because that's.

Which is why we have to set the ground rules going into the conversation and know that the idea of the conversations and the outcome of the conversation is to bring us closer together and is to bring a better understanding.

Not to point the finger and put your finger down each other apart and not to take what the other person says personally because they might just say something that gives you a realization.

You might then go, oh, I can see why you might think that.

I think this is what's going on.

Yeah, it's an opportunity to explain, not necessarily justify.

No, but to.

Oh, that's where that.

This is where that comes from.

Yeah, this is where that is.

And then, I mean, you and I, we've also talked in the past about kind of life being a big learning experience, constantly growing and learning and I mean, that's a big one.

That's a big one within a relationship as well.

So.

No, it's huge.

Huge, Huge, huge.

Kayleigh, much food for thought.

Have you got.

Okay, so to the mums listening now, are you able to give them like a tip that could transform their money mindset in like 2 minutes?

Quick, quick hack.

Because we all love a quick hack these days.

I don't know.

Or just something uplifting.

Yeah, no, I definitely can.

And it's something really, really simple.

Yeah.

Is instead of focusing on everything that's going out, focus on the gratitude.

Focus on the gratitude that you are able to pay the heating bill.

Focus on the gratitude that you have a mortgage to pay.

Focus on the gratitude that you have the money to buy your child a new pair of shoes after they destroyed the 10th pair.

As hard as that might be, when you can really switch your energy and start focusing on the gratitude for all of your money interactions, ingoing, outgoing, all of them, you will start to feel a lot lighter.

It's, it's, it's something so simple, it's not necessarily easy to start with, but it's shifting that burden.

Burden?

No, that is not a word.

Heaviness.

The burden.

Yeah, the heaviness.

Yeah.

Of money.

Yeah, it's shifting that off and instead seeing the, the lightness and the gratitude of, of what it actually is that you're.

You're able to provide on a daily basis thanks to money.

Yeah, yeah.

Rather than.

Oh, that's another bill.

Oh, that's another thing.

So seeing it as a useful tool.

Yeah, it's a useful tool and look what it's provided.

That's brilliant.

Thank you, Kayleigh.

Where can people find you if they've gone, oh, I love the cut of her jib.

I want more.

Give me more, Kayleigh.

I have my own podcast which is called the Wealthiest you, where I have lots of very fascinating conversations about wealth.

An episode of which we will be appearing on soon and anywhere else you can find me is literally my name, Kayleigh Provins on all my social media.

My website is kayleighprovins.com.

that's me and that's where you'll find me.

Marvellous.

I'm going to put a whole watch of links in the, in the show notes, people, and I will try my best to remember the books we referred to, or I referred to at least.

And I'll try and put the links in down there as well.

All right, Hayley, thank you so much.

That has been.

Thank you.

Revelatory, enlightening, all the things.

I hope so.

It can be a heavy topic and a big topic and it's hard sometimes to get everything that you want to say so clearly in a podcast.

But I hope what I did share shone a little bit of a different light for people.

Yeah, brilliant.

Brilliant.

Right, bless you.

Thank you.

Okay, everybody, thank you so much.

If you found this podcast episode useful, wonderful, enlightening and all the things, please like and share with like minded mothers and subscribe because that's how we get the word out.

So thank you so much.

All right, Kayleigh, thank you.

Bye bye.

Thank you, Zoe.

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