For our final episode of the podcast in 2025, we did something special! We went back through every interview we recorded from this past year and compiled all the highlights. The stories, nuggets of truth, and challenging conversations that stuck with us the most and are worth remembering.

This rewind episode mashup is a collection of all the best moments with our guests that defined our year. We hope you enjoy this special episode as much as we did putting it together—looking back and remembering all the incredible guests from this past year.

Whether you’ve been with us from day one or you jumped in somewhere along the way, thank you for being part of the No Grey Areas Podcast community. Here’s to closing out 2025 strong… and walking into 2026 by living out our motto of “We Make Our Choices and Our Choices Make Us”.

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No Grey Areas is a motivational podcast with captivating guests centered around how our choices humanize, empower, and define who we become. This podcast is inspired by the cautionary tale, No Grey Areas, written by Joseph Gagliano. Learn more about the truth behind his story involved with sports' biggest scandal at https://www.nogreyareas.com/

Speaker 1

Speaker 1

Speaker 2

I love the book Atomic Habits because it's great book. It talks about doing those small little things that then we'll add up. Because I will tell you, as a perfectionist, it's hard. Like if I write a list that's too big and I can't get through it, it makes me feel like a failure.

Speaker 2

So I've stopped doing that, and I only write down the things that I for sure can get down and done. And if I can, then I'll go look at the other list of what can I bring over. Yeah. So I think that.

Speaker 1

You're so much like, I, I, I you. That's why we love having friends. We were laughing before we turned the cameras in the mix on how much alike you two are. But that she would do the same thing. Like if if she makes a list and she's not pretty sure she can get through it, it's going to really bother her.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Like, I'll, I'll actually stay up later to try to get it done or. Yeah, it's just amazing. So I think if we're talking about New Year's, I love to tell people it's not a new year. I want it to be a better you like. So what's one thing that you can do to better yourself? Because if every year you say new year, new you, then it's like, well, if I didn't become a new you, then I feel just like going back to that shame or failure kind of thing was just one thing that you can do to better yourself.

Speaker 2

Maybe it's you. Stop. Soda.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Maybe it's if you love alcohol, it's one drink a week and not a glass of wine every night.

Speaker 2

if you eat out every day at work, maybe you choose to take your lunch twice a week and eat out three times. Those are small changes that you can that will add up and then you don't feel like, oh my gosh, I said I was going to stop. So to stop alcohol, go to bed early or get to the gym and cook five meals a week.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

God bless you. If you actually get it done in the first month.

Speaker 1

Yeah. It goes back to that, that acronym Smart goals, right? Yeah. We're we're one of them is achievable or attainable. Yeah. That and we do sometimes especially in the beginning of the year, we write down ten things that we want to do. And then we feel like we failed because we need those ten. So you're suggesting just just pick one thing that can start impacting,

Speaker 2

mean, I always I go back to like thinking, you know, your dad gave you a really nice car, you know, and and he wants you to this car, if you take care of it, it's going to last forever. And then you know, you start beating up on the car and not taking care of it, you know, how would he feel on that?

Speaker 2

So I think we've been given a vessel to do to do his work. I think, by taking care of that vessel's going to be able to, to make you healthier. And I think when you're healthier, you're healthier for other people's quality. So, spiritually speaking, for me, exercise is, you know, it's one facet. You know, the diet I feel is the most important as far as is, is what your body is doing and that type of thing.

Speaker 2

But, exercise now, as I've gotten older, is more of a mental break for me. So by able to step out and do an hour of something a day and just kind of disconnect from, from everything else, it's it's, it's it provides clarity and it's almost a spiritual thing as well too. So, it just makes me better for the next part of my day.

Speaker 2

I think it makes me better as a as a person.

Speaker 2

100% mindset is everything. You know, I mean in athletics are always saying it's what, you know, 90% mental, 10% physical or whatever. The yeah, it's truth. You know, where is your mindset and the things that you're going through. You know, you have to check that constantly. You know, you have to reset it. Because just thinking in a negative light, you're setting yourself, you're putting all this added weight on top of you.

Speaker 2

You're draining your energy. It, ultimately leads you to failure, you know? So as you're going through your life, and it's not just about goals. It's just going through your day to day, you know, it's like something negative can happen. Someone can put you in a bad mood, you know, and it's just like, okay, just take a moment after that, you know, take a deep breath.

Speaker 2

Just like we check your mindset like, oh, you know what it is what it is. You know, I got the rest of the day or you know what I mean. Today was a bad day, but man, I'm going to wake up tomorrow. The sun's going to come up and that's another opportunity. That's another day and another day is a blessing.

Speaker 2

Yeah. You know, I think we just focus on what we don't have. We focus on the negative things. We focus on what went wrong, you know. But you know, the more you can focus on the positives, you know, just adjust yourself. I just the way you think about things and treat every day like an opportunity, then you'll be so surprised at how much further you'll get in life, but also how much more happy you're going to be here.

Speaker 2

So, you know, don't limit your potential, don't limit your life by just, you know, having that negative mindset force yourself to be positive. And that's gonna open up a lot of doors for you in life.

Speaker 1

Scott, you've witnessed so much violence and hatred up close up closer than a lot of us have. What moments give you hope that changes even possible? Because that's. But here's what I find interesting about you. A lot of people that did the amount of work and undercover work and saw the hatred and violence that you saw, could be very skewed and tainted at this point in their life, where you're at in life and just looking at the world with with negative lens.

Speaker 1

But even in your book, it comes out a couple of times where I see you, you still have a real positive view of humanity.

Speaker 2

That's just me. Again, morals, values, how I was raised, my faith. But, yeah, I'm a glass half full, optimist.

Speaker 1

You absolutely are.

Speaker 2

Every every once in a blue moon, I'll have a bad night. I'll feel sorry for myself and cry about it. But I'm usually okay by the next day, you know, but if I wasn't that way, I don't think I would have made it. Yeah, I don't think I could have done what I've done. Yeah. So it kind of leads me to the second chances.

Speaker 2

Third chances, fourth. The 20th chances. You know, I used to always, I had to re explain this to my kids because they're listening to me and they're following me, and they're like, dad, you know, what's your what's your favorite word? Accountability. Because I'd be in the FBI and I'd be like, you know, you walk down the hallway and go two into the building and there's all the virtues, there's all and there's accountability on the wall.

Speaker 2

But not to bash the entire FBI because it's not all bad. And and just like anything else. But there was a lot of people in that building. I'd be like, you know what? You might they use some good to go down there and read, what the hell? Accountability. So I was huge on that, right? Yeah. And, and and holding a standard and you just being responsible for your own actions, that's all.

Speaker 2

Yeah. But if you instill that heavily into your kids, then when it comes time to forgive somebody, they're coming back to me. They're going, but dad, you said hold people accountable. And I'm like, damn, I screwed up. Let me tell you the other side of the coin. Look, if your daddy. I'm like, if your dad didn't get 20th chances, 25th chances, I would not be sitting here right now.

Speaker 2

I'd probably be in jail or dead, you know? That's what I'm talking about. So,

Speaker 2

all my employees. I'm super close with them. And I knew all about their lives. And we were.

Speaker 2

You think we're friends? But at the same time, of all the managers who had the biggest discipline stack, I did because I held my team accountable. And they they start to walk this line of, oh, it's all good, Hayley's cool, we're friends. And then I warned them, I think a big thing was air pods on the floor at that time.

Speaker 2

And I said, hey, if I'm telling everyone this right now, if we have if I see an air pod, it's an instant write up. And everyone I told everyone, the employees that were closest to me like they thought, you know, oh, Hailey's not going to get us in trouble. And I did, and my team respected me. I stuck, I stayed consistent, I held the same line for everyone, and that's exact.

Speaker 2

And I realized that was a huge part of my success as a leader with people and achieving results.

Speaker 2

And that's exactly what I had to do my whole life with horses.

Speaker 2

The second I let them cross that line, I learned how to pick my battles. That was huge. And yeah, and now I do that with people in my day to day relationships.

Speaker 1

In everything you need write a book someday about like this. If one of the chapters in there was about this leadership that you learned about how you deal with people, but same way you're dealing with a horse. Like you're saying, the consistency of that horse, starts to think like, well, sometimes I can I could get an advantage over and and some days I can't.

Speaker 1

And he's going to where she is going to to try it fairly often unless you're consistent least showing that horse like I, you know, I'm in charge here,

Speaker 2

I learned that belonging is showing up as your authentic self, knowing that you're enough.

Speaker 2

belonging. The thing on the inside. Like when you have imposter syndrome, it's because you don't understand belonging. And when you can understand belonging, you will not have imposter syndrome because you belong everywhere. You just need to know that.

Speaker 1

That is so good. I'm. I'm. I actually am taking time to write down what you just said because I think a lot of people deal with imposter syndrome. In fact, to your point, like when you were in high school, a lot of the people that you're sitting maybe in a boardroom and they're like, oh, they're the ones that have it together, you know, just like you did in high school.

Speaker 1

And on from the outward, everybody would be like, oh, she's definitely got it. Feel like she fits in or belongs, but when you start digging in to people and they get, vulnerable and transparent with you, you find out that most people struggle with imposter syndrome.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Because they don't understand belonging.

Speaker 1

They don't understand belonging. And what about belonging, which is again showing up in your authentic self.

Speaker 2

Knowing that you're enough. That's it. It's like it's just done. Like, you know, it's just like there's so many people that like, quote unquote made it right, successful in their mind in terms of I can't believe I got here. It's like, well, you've been working towards it. Why is that hard to believe that you got there? It's like, that's what you, you've been working to obtain.

Speaker 2

And then you went there or it's like, you know, you decided to go this path and it just kind of blew up for you. Right? But you put in a lot of work there. Right? But you have this imposter syndrome. It's because you don't understand belonging. You don't feel good enough about you.

Speaker 1

And trying to fit in is exhausting, isn't it?

Speaker 2

Because, oh my God, you can't.

Speaker 1

You're wearing all these masks and you got to put this mask on and this mask on it, which goes back to belonging, is your authentic self.

Speaker 2

And if you're trying to fit in, who are you?

Speaker 1

Hey, we hope you've enjoyed this episode so far. Be sure to like and subscribe to not miss a future podcast! Okay,

Speaker 1

One of the things that you said is you said we're the most fatherless generation in history. I'm speaking of that for a moment.

Speaker 2

Brother,

Speaker 2

so? In the generations before us, if dad was gone, it was because he was gone to work or he was gone to war or he was dead. All those things were bearable because dad's not here, but dad's.

Speaker 2

We know that he still cares about us. He's providing for us. He's doing what he needs to do to serve where he's dead.

Speaker 2

And that's just a mourning process. But when dad is just not present, meaning he's emotionally not there, or he has chose to just leave. That's a wound that is new for humans, and we don't have a lot of history on what to do with the fact that dad just wasn't there. Dad didn't care. Yeah. And not only did I not learn anything from my dad.

Speaker 2

His lack of attention, his lack of emotional muscle availability to me just has made me worse than I would have been had I not had a father. And so when I say fatherless, I'm not talking about whether dad's in the home or not. Which if you know, statistics, dads aren't even in the homes, they're they're making babies, but they're not fathering.

Speaker 2

And so, you know, you can go back thousands of years. And there was a prophet that said, there's going to be a time when I'm going to send an Elijah like prophet, and he's going to win the hearts of fathers back to sons and sons back to fathers. And that's not gender specific. I think that can be, you know, mothers and daughters and, you know, it's it's just the family unit coming together.

Speaker 2

And I don't know why that would have been so relevant unless we were going to find ourselves at a time like we're in right now. So I take that as a very timely scripture to look at. What does it look like for God's voice to be over planet Earth right now, specifically, if we're talking to America right now and say we need to see the heart, like what matters to me as a dad turned fully towards my family, and in order for me to do that, I'm going to have to know what to do with me and this influence that we talked about versus authority.

Speaker 2

I, God, was very specific about his assigned man to be the head of the whole. It's an authoritative position that has been so misused that it makes most women that are hear me right now even cringe to hear a man say, hey, God said, I'm the one that has the authority in the house. But if that authority was demonstrated, the way that we're talking about is that all of my authority, that means my strength, my everything that I have is to serve this family and to make it to where everybody wins above me.

Speaker 2

And, I don't know what woman or what child wouldn't want that type of authority in their life where we as men, being fathered by God, are now coming into what it looks like to be masculine, and that is to have authority that's presented in such a way that so tender and kind and powerful and dangerous that everyone around us is going to see that I will yield to this, because the only thing he wants is for me to be the best that I can be.

Speaker 2

And there's there's no bullying in that. There's no manipulation. It is not self-serving. And it it really is what love looks like.

Speaker 1

So this is a phrase I heard a long time ago.

Speaker 1

For me, now it's going back almost half a century. Man up. But that's a that's a dangerous phrase.

Speaker 2

It is.

Speaker 1

Because the way I heard that phrase when I was growing up, whether it be from teachers, coaches or my own dad was man up, man like, stop crying like a man doesn't cry. Which I don't agree with at all, right? I don't think I was modeled toxic masculinity, but it became a masculinity that was confusing for me later, where I would hear that phrase like, man up, man up.

Speaker 1

Yeah, not a not a bad phrase to use, but only if we help that young boy or that young man understand what we mean when we say man right? So when that phrase is used in a healthy way, what would that mean? Or what would that look like

Speaker 2

And that goes back to what I said at the beginning. There is such thing as toxic masculinity. If man up is drinking excessively or jumping from bed to bed with whoever you, which is.

Speaker 1

What's most often taught.

Speaker 2

Yeah, right. That is a toxic masculinity, because that's not what being a man is. You know, manhood, like any truth come, is grounded in the Bible. Truth comes from God. Biblical masculinity is true, you know, so man up to me. There is a time where, as men, we have to kind of man up. We have to show some resiliency.

Speaker 2

We have to be a voice of calm and reason, particularly if our family's going through a struggle. Maybe there's a financial hardship. For example, going on, we I do believe that part of being the leaders of our home is putting on that brave face and say, hey, we're going to get through this. We're going to continue to pray and seek the Lord through this, and he's going to bring us through this being that face for our men.

Speaker 2

There is for our families. There is a time to to to be again that reassuring, confident, quiet strength for our families. And I think they count on us for that.

Speaker 1

What's a hard lesson you learned first hand and how has that shaped you?

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's a great question, Pat. It's there are a lot of challenges we all face in life. But I think when you ask that question, the greatest kind of umbrella challenge that I've, I've actually faced many times, I wish I had to learn that lesson earlier, is to, have a dream, but then not put action to it.

Speaker 2

And so what I discovered, as I was processing and even writing my book a number of years ago, was, I felt like God showed me I was at times a passive dreamer. And when you passively dream, it's more like a wish or hope. Yeah. And I think so many of us have dreams that God infused in our hearts and minds.

Speaker 2

And, we hold them at a distance because they feel out of reach. Or maybe that's not for me. Or maybe that's just a selfish desire. But, when we hold them so far away that passive dreaming, rarely leads to any of them moving closer to reality for us. And so, as a child, I dreamed about being an Air Force pilot.

Speaker 2

I wanted to be a, you know, Air Force Thunderbird or Navy Blue Angel and had hoped to go to the Air Force Academy and one day ended up, you know, I'm in engineering school and college wondering, where did I miss that dream? When I visited the Air Force Academy, I did tours and never took steps to pursue it.

Speaker 2

And really, that shapes a lot of my story. And I've seen that unfortunately unfold a number of times where there's this dream, but there's this reluctance at times for us to actually pursue it and have that courage. And so, while there are other, harder, more, challenging seasons of life, I think when we lose sight of those dreams and don't pursue them.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it leaves us in a situation that can be, unhealthy, but also lead to despair and discouragement. Yeah.

Speaker 2

you know, so often we make our decisions and we ask God to bless our plans.

Speaker 2

You know, we say, God, I'm, I'm taking a step forward. God, please come along. You know, God, follow me, you know, and and and, you know, sprinkle your you know, your religious glory dust on this God, you know, and my decision as opposed to saying, you know, taking that step back and saying, hey, God, what are you looking to to accomplish?

Speaker 2

And, you know, it specifically was referencing, you know, the account of, you know, David and looking to build the temple. And, you know, he went to Nathan and, and said, you know, I'm living in the house of Cedar. God is, you know, his presence is a tent. I want to build a temple. And, you know, Nathan, you know, looking at every outside, you know, justification, reasonably and smartly said, God is with you.

Speaker 2

Speaker 2

You know, it's not.

Speaker 1

Like he was always wise.

Speaker 2

Speaker 2

But yet if we do, at least, you know, in humility, try to submit some part of that process to say, God, what are you trying to do in this circumstance? What are you trying to show me? What can I learn from this? You know, where are you leading me? And seek to discern that rather than just to to land that decision?

Speaker 2

You know, we'll find this starts to change the decisions that we do make.

Speaker 1

you talked about identity several times to here, which I think, again, is probably the core of our issues, both positive and negative. Right. Where does identity play into all of this?

Speaker 2

We're born on this earth to do a certain thing that we believe. What happens over here? You throw a ballpark. You know, we used to kick a ball back in England. Johnny, what do you want to be? I want to be a pilot. What about you, Billy? I want to be a doctor. What happened to them? Dreams. I'll tell you.

Speaker 2

They were kicked out of us by a family and friends. That was a stupid rabbit. You come from the project, you can't be a doctor. How stupid. It's not trained enough. So they go. So why don't you find your identity? Why? Especially after addiction, depression, PTSD, the identity snatched away from you. Because the identity becomes less than alcohol, PTSD.

Speaker 2

Whatever is the identity that we see this a lot in. Married couples split up. The woman has lost her identity, so she's left with nothing. Once you start to find who you are, what you capable of doing, and what your niche is in life, you become a very powerful person. Those people, when they find that out, back away.

Speaker 2

Oh, no, don't stop it. Everybody listening to this right now is a natural born leader. You're not listening to this by mistake. 60 to 63 years on this earth. I'm telling you, I'm guaranteeing this. Guys, if you think you fell on this podcast by mistake, you are mistaken then. And I can tell you that you're meant to hear this stuff when there's one person out of you.

Speaker 2

Me to hear this, too, because I'm talking to you

Speaker 1

I hope our audience will really take some take to heart some of the things, one of the big things, and I would encourage them to do that. I'm going to take from what you said is to be very proactive in our calendars.

Speaker 1

Yeah, our calendars say what we really believe and are living, not what we say we believe, and so be proactive on your calendar and make sure that whatever your calendar says you're doing reflects on your core. Belief is what's.

Speaker 2

In your calendar, getting you closer to those goals, those dreams, those desires. One last thing, but I love to ask audiences, hey, real quickly write down the first 3 to 5 things that come to mind when I ask you the question, what's most important to you?

Speaker 2

And step back and give them 30s. And then I know what they're writing down, and I know what they're not writing down. And so I'm setting up for this conversation about, you know, being present. It's our family, our spouse, our children, our faith, our career. It's not our cell phone. Netflix, golfing. It's not.

Speaker 1

And so look at your look at.

Speaker 2

Your calendar and see it through the to match. And when you see your calendars full of appointments and conversations that are taking you away, I mean, there's so many layers to it. Do the notifications you get on your phone move you closer to your goal and dream? Are they distracting you and taking you off course? Yeah.

Speaker 1

Live intentionally

Speaker 2

we're not robots. Yeah. We have this, this analogy like, you know, to go, I never quit, gunner. I get that we can be that person. You still human? Rest when you need to rest, right? Refuel when you need to refuel. Recover when you need to recover. But you still got to go to work.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Manage your time. Manage what you do with your efforts. Balance the checkbook. You've heard the saying, balance meals. Balance. We are unstable. Our society is unstable. We live in an industrial society. Go go go go go go go go go go go gotta go, gotta get it, gotta go, gotta work. Got it? I gotta work 12 hours I do this, I gotta, I gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta get the kids to school I gotta, gotta, gotta gotta gotta gotta gotta gotta.

Speaker 2

Then what? You're you're moving on. Fumes. Reserve preserve reserve preserve reserve. Oh, that's good, because you got to. Yeah, I didn't say go. I ain't be crazy. Yeah, I'm saying no. When to fight and no when to be cool. Yeah, I myself and the calm. And I am the storm. I'm both. That's me. Yeah. Never said you have to be like me I don't do the calm and the storm.

Speaker 2

I'm both. Yeah, I know when to turn it up. Yeah, I know when to be cool.

Speaker 1

And I like what you said Coach Payne. You know when I said do you think it's a cultural thing and goes being that human. A human. So how do you Coach Payne.

Speaker 2

Yes, sir.

Speaker 1

You deal with laziness because you're human. So how do you fight that?

Speaker 2

I say this, I don't depend on my alarm clock, for example. Right. People say my alarm didn't go off. You all have no idea how many times I've heard that. Some of my guys know how much that makes my gums itch. Yeah. I can't help.

Speaker 1

It. If you start training me and, I show up late, and I tell him I better not say my alarm didn't go off, and I better.

Speaker 2

Be the worst. That'd be the worst mistake you can make to me. Because you. I'll come back to this.

Speaker 1

Wait, let me write that. No. Down!

Speaker 2

I said fat because here's the thing. We depend on machines. We depend on a machine. Let me. Why would you wait for an alarm to tell you to get up? If God himself has given you the air in your lungs heart that you have to beat, that's your alarm. God said, get up, not the alarm. Get up.

Speaker 2

My heart's beating. That's God saying get up. My lungs are working. That's God saying get up.

Speaker 2

There's never a substitute for hard work, hard work always pays off. Sacrifice always pays off. Tough times make tougher people. If you don't know what you can go through, you quit too early.

Speaker 2

I mean, I remember, like, we've we full court press in eighth grade in the first 45 minutes of every practice run and suicides until we bapt because we had to be in that kind of shape, a full court press the entire game.

Speaker 2

I look back on that now as a 47 year old man that shaped me. Yeah, and they sucked.

Speaker 1

When they're telling you to line up again.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Like Jocko Willits podcast, the Navy Seal stuff, which I've been fascinated with my whole life. Like, yeah, he's like, it's discipline. It's not motivation. Yep. There's not one part of it's motivated to get back in that water and hell week. It's discipline of who I'm jumping my ass back and it's so true. And not one man wants to get out from under that boat, get back in the water.

Speaker 1

And I love Jocko Willink. You mentioned him, I love I follow him on Instagram. I love every day. He's got a picture. It's like 403 and he's got a picture. He earns the sun red on his. Yeah.

Speaker 2

That doesn't happen anymore. Yeah. And I'm not great at either. Yeah, but I have a lot more. I think it maybe because I'm just getting old, but maybe it's I just don't I don't see that in the 15 to 25 year olds that I run across now. Yeah. They, they've never had to they go home and I never went home with my mom and dad about our practice was they wouldn't have cared.

Speaker 2

They told me to go back and do it again because apparently when hard enough, if I'm complaining about it. Yeah. Now all I see is, oh, well, we're going to go in and they want to complain about practice. Oh, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1

And maybe you should quit. They're going to go talk to the coaches. Yeah. About yeah.

Speaker 2

That's not real life. Going back to what sports teach us one tenth of 1% go pro 1% sign of Division one scholarship. And that's football. What is it? It teaches you life. It teaches you that tough times happen. Get your ass off the ground and keep moving.

Speaker 1

Why do bad things happen to good people? Or if God is good, why does he allow suffering and evil? That's the question that we hear all the time, right?

Speaker 2

It's it's brought up all the time. And so I like to push back and say, how is it even possible that good things happen to people? We live in a fallen world where I like to say it this way if Jesus is who he says he is, then there is a Satan and he is here to kill, to steal, and to destroy.

Speaker 2

And anybody who's doing any kind of good, Satan just hates you. He laughs and mocks all of us when we go through hard times and sadly, he doesn't always have to be used in a fallen world where we're imperfect, where we're dealing with selfishness, just personal, selfish ambition. We tend to destroy each other. Where I think Satan's like, you guys don't need me.

Speaker 2

Yeah. You're destroying. Yeah.

Speaker 3

We do a pretty good job, don't we?

Speaker 2

Yeah. I really think it's that simple of an answer.

Speaker 1

I like how you spun it around the two. So you're saying that the evil in our world is caused by Satan or.

Speaker 2

Not by.

Speaker 1

God? Not by God. And you flipped it around and you said, if you actually look around, you should flip that around. How does that even. Good?

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I think people resonate with that. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Speaker 1

This kind of goes to your answer because every single day I can give examples of where I saw something that was good 100%.

Speaker 2

And it's a practice. You you guys talk a lot about habits. Yeah. This podcast, it's a good habit. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Like you were saying, there's no way to prepare for that knock on the door that I've had, and I get that right. But at the same time, are there things we would be doing now knowing that I'm going to go through some debrief at some point?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Pat, I would say, ask people their story and tell your story. The more we're about the business of, again, not, counting any any pain as insignificant, it could be financial loss. It could be health issues, it could be relationship issues. Don't be afraid to tell your story. But if you're not in communities where that's accepted, where where you feel like you're on the outside always sharing your story about not hearing other people's because of the dynamic of that community.

Speaker 2

I would seek other communities. We've got to find places where, again, I don't want to be weird about this, but there's got to be moments and room so that I have a network of people that know me. And now that I'm getting to know them, I think that the church is a great place to do that. There are other groups that may be, equally powerful.

Speaker 2

And that way when that happens, I'm not prepared necessarily, but I've shored myself up relationally to where we're going to do this together, and we're going to link arms and we're going to walk through this together. If I don't have those relationships when that grief happens. I've met so many people, sadly heartbreaking when they tell me I'm alone in this, I'm away from maybe family.

Speaker 2

I'm out of state. I'm, you know, new at a job, whatever it may be. And I have no one, and my heart just breaks for them. So you'll never be fully prepared. But when I know your story and you know mine well enough to where we're below the surface, then when one of us does experience grief. Man, you're the first one I'm calling.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And so then we can understand it together and again. Pray for each other, walk through it together and, and encourage one another along the way.

Speaker 2

And then understanding that you're not alone. And one of the things about being alone, no matter what your situation is, sometimes going to a support group is what is 100% needed.

Speaker 2

And I could see that now that I volunteer my time to do that, I those weren't available to me when I was growing up, which is fine. I'm glad they're available now because people do need to talk to others that are in the in kind of the same journey, and it does it in my life. It doesn't matter whether I'm missing a hand in X person is missing a foot.

Speaker 2

We can still connect on some level and have some really good conversations about what it takes to navigate some of life's challenges, and maybe even tell a couple jokes to each other and be a little light hearted about.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I love what you said about not being alone and going to people that are dealing with similar because that apply again for our audience that are listening, that applies to any of us. Right? If you've lost a child, sometimes going to a support group of people that have lost children do you're going to connect and you're not going to feel alone, and you're going to have people that understand a little better than someone else that hasn't lost a child.

Speaker 1

What that's like, or a divorce, or a loss of a spouse or a loss of a limb. Or we could go on and on with that list. Right. So that's the value of that. So I hear you saying like one of the things you would really advocate for is for people, if you're going through something difficult, find a support group.

Speaker 2

You need to be able to talk to someone in the same situation that you're going through, and you may not think so. You may think, hey, I got this right. We all think that at times, oh, I'm good, I got this. But I think there's so much power in being able to connect with others that are going through some of the same challenges, or maybe have gone through the same challenges.

Speaker 1

What were some things that you started noticing about yourself, or she started noticing in these last five years of your career that were warning flags that you might need to get some help?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think the biggest one or the most noticeable one. And now that I'm talking out loud about this, it probably wasn't even the last five. It was really the last several that were really, really tough. But absenteeism, I was becoming an absent dad. Like, I wasn't involved. I wasn't at the sporting events, I wasn't at.

Speaker 1

Dinner. Like you weren't even physically there, or you weren't mentally there. You were there. Yes.

Speaker 2

Both of those okay. Yeah. Okay. Both of those. So there were a lot of times physically when I wasn't there just because of the call volume. Yeah. We just weren't around. Missed a lot of holidays, a lot of birthdays, anniversaries. But then when I was there, really wasn't there. Because I really didn't want to engage socially. I didn't want to go out with friends.

Speaker 2

I didn't really want to go to my kiddos sporting event because then I'd have to talk to people. The world became very, very people.

Speaker 1

Would you have been able to articulate that at the time? Do you think, like someone would have said, you don't seem like you really want to be here? Would you have been able to identify that? Yeah, it was true at the time.

Speaker 2

Oh yeah, I knew it was true. I don't know that I engage in the conversation. Yeah, maybe. Depends on who's bringing it to my attention. Yeah. You know, we talk I have this conversation with Melody. If Compassion Alliance existed back when I needed help the most, would I have sought help then? I don't know. Yeah, maybe.

Speaker 2

Maybe not.

Speaker 1

So you brought up, I think, a really important point. And this isn't just audience. Please hear this. This isn't just for first responders. I think it's for any of us that need help. And we all need help at times.

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1

Absolutely. But you brought up that you had these when I was talking about, like you were involved in church and small groups and stuff like that, and you said, yes, I was, but I wasn't reaching out for help. What was inhibiting you from reaching out from help. And what do you think inhibits others from reaching out to help?

Speaker 1

I think there used to be kind of a in the first responders world, veterans world. There is this mindset of like, I'm supposed to be tough. And, you know, yeah, I can ask for help is that.

Speaker 2

There was and it's still there a little bit, but it's changing. It's definitely changing. But it's still there. It's absolutely still there. I think, for me, I just didn't know how to ask for help. Like I was never educated on that process. Nobody ever took the time to say, you know what? If you decide you want help, this is how you do it.

Speaker 2

Just just do it and find a good close friend, a coworker, a spouse, whoever you trust and just ask for help. Just start at one person.

Speaker 2

Something that I talk about too, or I guess it's been the light has been shed on me, is that there is another side. And that's one of the things that keeps popping up as I'm talking to the other people within a limbless community. I was born like this, which is a little different than somebody losing their leg in a motorcycle accident.

Speaker 2

But what keeps coming up as I talk to people is there is another side. And I shouldn't say sometimes, almost always, that other side is something better than they ever imagined their life could be.

Speaker 1

Like, that's huge. That's I mean, that's for any of us. Like, I know you're specifically dealing again with people that have lost a limb or born without a limb, but the that, that other side, the other. So there is another side. That's what spirals are so often as human beings. Session it is, is when we don't think that there's another side, when we don't think things are going to get any better when we write.

Speaker 1

So that's a that's a huge attitude adjustment just to believe that.

Speaker 2

you know, as you said, we don't know the twists and turns life life is going to you know, bring our way. And one of the lessons, the most important lessons that I learned, you know, is that we have, as you know, we talked about a choice also how we look at our journey. So during early on in in my recovery, I learned about the philosophy and art of consuming, of taking a broken vase, putting it back together with gold inlay, and accepting and appreciating the cracks as part of the journey.

Speaker 2

And that gave me a way to talk about, you know, the challenges and issues and things that I was going through. But this is part of my journey, and I can accept it and embrace it and learn from it and share it, but I can't change it.

Speaker 2

And also by recognizing that and reframing to not be a victim but accepting the experiences as part of my journey. It was easier to talk about and to share with the other people who were also in my life impacted by this and needed to help me.

Speaker 3

I also think though the waiting season we walked through, we thankfully even early on in our journey of waiting in South Africa, waiting to come back to the US, we knew that we like we needed to turn it into a working season. And even though we felt like so much was on hold, that like those little moments of surrender.

Speaker 1

You know, I want to pause here again because I don't want our audience missed what you just said. You were saying that you you guys identified the fact that you're waiting season. You would turn into a working.

Speaker 3

Yeah, we would say like, we have to work the wait. It was truly a phrase that we would tell each. It was a mantra for us every day, because the way and even in a season where it very much felt like we were in a straitjacket, we couldn't do anything. We couldn't get a house, get a car, get it, do literally anything.

Speaker 3

We were staying with his parents. He couldn't get a job. I'm working for a company in America. Just trying. We're trying to figure it out. But it would. We would say we're going to work the way we're going to do, figure out what we can do. So even when we felt like there wasn't much, it's like we're going to do we're going to maximize this season and get no get for everything.

Speaker 3

It is. And those were the little moments of surrender that he spoke about along the way. It was just like, okay, we're going to work this way. And then on the back end of it, when we walked, as we walked through it, like you said, we haven't had so many things are unanswered. And I think that is life, right?

Speaker 3

There's so many things that we will never know on this side of eternity. Right. But but we're grateful for the little threads along the way where I think in so many of us, you'll see a little bit of like, oh, I can kind of see that I had this had to happen, I wouldn't be here as page, the page that that sits before you if this all this crap hadn't happened.

Speaker 3

Like you can't have this without that. And so it's just what he spoke about, like finding purpose in our pain. And for us, that's been through sharing and through being vulnerable about what we've walked through. And, and just in hopes that, hey, we made it out on the other side with a little bit of hope and still a little banged up and bruised up for sure, but like but God's healed that.

Speaker 3

And and that's what brings the purpose is like even if it's to help one person know that they're not alone. It takes the sting out of the pain. But you'll never really fully know or understand.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I think I think that actually can give purpose to anyone in a waiting season is if you're going to be in a waiting season, you might as well be working in that season,

Speaker 2

get serious about telling your story. Because up to that point in time we're both introverts. We, you know I doing this is hard. And so we just served for, for almost 40 years.

Speaker 2

We just served 30 years. We just served as people crossed our paths. We serve them. We cared for them. We loved them. We experienced heaven with them. We've trained people on how you do this. And so and that's what we thought we were supposed to do. One by one, by one by one. Couple. The couple. Well, get serious about telling your story is a totally different deal.

Speaker 1

And that that's the intentionality part, right? Like you've been given this moment. Yesterday's gone. Tomorrow's not guaranteed. But you've been given this moment. So intentionally looking for those bubble moments and and not missing them.

Speaker 1

Latasha, I'd love for you to speak into this for a moment, too. So. So this podcast is built around the whole idea that, we make our choices, and eventually our choices make us that, that the complexity of what it means to be made in the image of God, that that he's created us with the power of choice.

Speaker 1

And that's good and bad. There's there's both sides of that. But we've been talking a lot about crushing, the bathroom floor moments that you've been talking about, dealing with the difficult times. So just speaking to a little bit about choices and the choices that we can make in those moments.

Speaker 2

That's such a great question because, listen, I give God glory for everything I do, but I was on the StairMaster this morning because that's been my new, challenge 45 minutes a day. I start off at, like, a six, and then I go on to eights, and then I'm even running now because I've been working at this, and I get up every morning and I do this.

Speaker 2

And while I was on the StairMaster this morning and I was so excited to come here, anything that God says, this is what I want to do. I'm so excited to talk about what he's done in my life. But he said, you know, kiddo, I feel like that's how God talks to me. He calls me kiddo. You make a decision.

Speaker 1

You say that a few times. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2

It's like a personal thing, I love it. You get out of the bed. You've battled depression. You've battled anxiety, you've battled recent betrayal. You still show up to the gym, and you meet me at the StairMaster, and you pray and you seek me. And no matter what sorrow or troubles you're going through, you still show up and you have to get on the StairMaster.

Speaker 2

Speaker 2

You're not. But I love you for trying. And he's like, and you're challenging yourself every day. You're making the decision to do that. I've given you freewill. And I say, pick up your cross and follow me. But you have to be the one to commit. Commit to your dream. Commit to the vision. Commit to who I called you to be.

Speaker 2

Guys, when somebody tells you you can't do it, you have to make the decision to believe their Word or God's Word. I tell you, I've been doing this for 16 years and I didn't have a lot of support. I didn't have a lot of people who believed in me. I lost family, I lost friends, I went through seasons of isolation, holidays by myself eating peanut butter out of a jar.

Speaker 2

You really get comfortable after a while of deciding, you know what? Giving up is way harder than trying burn the ships. I've gotten this far and I can't go back now. So if you like me, great. If you love me, great. If you don't, great. You guys are not my God. Yeah. And the only one that I can give credit to for giving me the will to survive and to flourish is that if he said that we could do it.

Speaker 2

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Then. And he died for me, and he rose again. And the power of the living God resides in me. Then how can I not show up to victory? It's scary. I was nervous coming here. This is such a huge blessing. I love that God's like, okay, we're going to put you on this podcast.

Speaker 2

I'm like, this is an amazing podcast. I used to do radio from my closet. I was criss cross applesauce and they would patch me in to LA, and I thought that was like, oh my God, I arrived. You guys are like a whole operation here, you know? And I don't take it for granted. I just think that in the moments where you feel like giving up guys, you have to make a decision to say, what if I give up?

Speaker 2

And breakthrough is right there? Yeah. So I just want to encourage your make sure that you're making the decision to choose to win because it's in reach.

Speaker 1

man, Joe, it's been kind of fun to see how this has grown, hasn't it? Because we're at I think by the time this drops, we'll have over 130 episodes we've done. We've gone from a few thousand subscribers on, on YouTube to probably 300,000 plus by the time this dropped. So it's been a lot of growth, a lot of impact.

Speaker 1

And I know that's one of the reasons you wanted to do it.

Speaker 2

when you guys asked me to come back on here a couple weeks ago, and, yesterday, I was thinking about the story, and I was thinking about some things, and I went back and I watched that first episode we did almost four years ago. It's like, I didn't have all the grey hair I have now.

Speaker 2

And I don't know if it's because of you. And.

Speaker 1

I have more grey hair, too, so it might be mutual.

Speaker 2

But,

Speaker 1

Oh, my beard.

Speaker 2

Man. It's crazy how far we've come with this, with this channel and the purpose behind it. And, so flip and proud of what you've done. You know, I throw compliments around, like manhole cover I do, and I think I told you a couple of weeks ago, I was watching one episode that you did recently, and,

Speaker 2

it's really cool to see how far you've evolved as well as a as the face of the, of the franchise, so to speak, and the face of the podcast and,

Speaker 2

and the messaging and how you interact with people and the questions. So that's been great to see. And obviously, what Riley's been doing behind the scenes on the production side and what Payton does on the marketing side, you guys have really blown up the channel. The production quality's amazing. Yeah, the messaging is incredible. I do feel like we're making a change.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Some of the some of the comments and some of the feedback we get is meaningful.

Speaker 2

So it's a good thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Well thank you, Joe, that, that that means a lot. But you bring up something that I think is so important for our audience to understand, because making a difference is the very first time I met you. When you reach out to me. And we went to lunch, that time you talked about that. And then I've heard you say that so often.

Speaker 1

That's that's kind of a key thing for you, isn't it? Is to make a difference.

Speaker 2

It is. And you know what, Pat? I've never actually asked you. Do you think we're making a difference?

Speaker 1

Oh, 100%. I get the privilege of sometimes showing up in a coffee shop around town or dropping into a place, and I run into someone that said, like, hey, I listened to the podcast and, you know, the most people won't ever write and tell you this stuff so you don't get to hear. It's kind of like a speaker on a stage, you know, maybe there's a thousand people in the audience.

Speaker 1

You don't get to hear how that might have impacted them. But I get to run into some people and they'll start talking about like how it impacted them or what they said. Or

Speaker 1

we know there's those kind of stories out there and there's a lot more that we need.

Speaker 2

So little things like that that actually fill my cup and yeah,

Speaker 2

pushing to keep things moving forward.

Speaker 1

So audience, send us some good comments every once in a while. Tell us what's how it's impacting you.

Speaker 1

Because it's really what it was really your vision. It was your vision is one of the reasons you wrote the book. It's one of the reasons that we're making a movie. It's one of the reasons that we did this podcast is to make a difference, to take your story, which we're going to get into a second, to take your story and use it for good.

Speaker 1

And we're seeing that. I think we're going to see it even more so in the in the coming years as our audience is about to hear it.

Speaker 1

And these clips are just a taste of all the incredible conversations we had this past year. And we hope they encouraged you as you enter into this New year. As always, thank you again for supporting our podcast and we can't wait for some amazing interviews to come from all of us here at No grey Areas. Happy New Year and remember, we make our choices and eventually our choices make us.