In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary, sits down with Zane Zumbahlen, Chief People Officer at Wedgewood, to explore what it really means to lead HR through transformation from day one and why vulnerability might be the most underrated strategic tool a leader has.

With a career spanning technology, finance, and healthcare, Zane brings a cross-functional perspective on how to build trust fast, dream boldly, and still get the basics done. He shares how stepping into a company facing real business headwinds led him to experiment with radical authenticity and how that one decision changed everything about how his team showed up.

Together, they explore how Zane used AI as a thought partner to build a 2028 HR vision, what happened when he brought his team together to dream and got derailed by reality, and why the best thing he did was give his team a "get out of jail free card" to push back on the business.

Zane also shares why vulnerability is a learnable skill, not a personality trait and how practicing it, like a muscle, can accelerate trust, deepen relationships, and make HR teams more effective in ways that no tool or process can replicate.

Topics Discussed:

1. Why Zane opened his very first team meeting with a deeply personal story and what happened next
2. How vulnerability creates speed of trust and why that matters for new HR leaders
3. Using ChatGPT as a strategic thought partner to build a 2028 HR vision
4. Running a two-day offsite that got productively derailed and why that was the best outcome
5. How to help an overburdened HR team say no strategically and prioritize what actually moves the needle
6. Why Zane's client is the business, not the leader and what that means in practice
7. Handpicking external mentors from different industries for each direct report
8. The future of AI in HR: emotional intelligence nudges, HRIS integration, and enabling managers to lead better
9. Vulnerability as a skill you can build and how to start practicing it safely

If you're an HR leader navigating a new role, leading a team through change, or trying to balance the tension between strategic vision and day-to-day execution, this episode offers both a fresh perspective and a practical playbook for leading with courage.

Additional Resources:

1. Jia Jiang's TED Talk: What I learned from 100 days of rejection
2. Cleary's AI-powered HR Chatbot
3. Future Proof HR Community
4. Connect with Zane Zumbahlen on LinkedIn

*This conversation with Zane Zumbahlen was recorded in early 2025, shortly after he joined Wedgewood as Chief People Officer.

In my opinion, the more our employees or the leaders with

2

whom we work sees as authentic the

faster we can start to work together.

3

Better, deeper, more quickly,

and more meaningfully.

4

In my opinion, vulnerability

plays to authenticity.

5

Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

6

For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

7

be prepared to be decimated.

8

We reject that message.

9

The future of HR won't be handed to us.

10

Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

11

Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

12

what they've learned, and what's next.

13

We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

14

just survive, but to thrive.

15

Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Future

Proof HR podcast, where we explore how

16

forward-thinking HR leaders prepare for

disruption and redefine what it means

17

to lead people in a changing world.

18

Today's guest is Zane Zumbahlen,

Chief People Officer at Wedgewood.

19

With a career spanning technology,

finance, and healthcare,

20

Zane has led global HR teams

through transformations,

21

mergers, and rapid growth.

22

Known for his collaborative

leadership style.

23

He blends experimentation, vulnerability,

and strategic risk taking to

24

shape future ready organizations.

25

Zane, welcome to the podcast.

26

Speaker 3: Thank you very much.

27

It's great to be here.

28

I have to give ownership collaborative

is my wife's word, if I ever

29

claim ownership, she corrects.

30

Speaker: I love it.

31

If we could get started.

32

You were telling me about how you

just joined this organization a few

33

months back and as a leader you tried

something a little bit different in

34

the way that you got started with

the organization and your team.

35

Speaker 3: So as I was interviewing for

the role I had three interviews with the

36

CEO and each one of those he talked about

speed and, asked questions about speed.

37

So I knew that was of import to

him and how to come on strong.

38

I'd never done this in any prior

role, either a company change or

39

a job change within a company.

40

But I have been playing around

with being more and more vulnerable

41

and how much I can share.

42

And without going into depth here, but

I lost my parents when I was young.

43

I took my very first team meeting,

so I had my 22, 23 people on the team

44

call, and I started talking about the

journey I've gone through with life.

45

But, then I said I wanna be

real and I want to go deep.

46

So here's one of the most

meaningful stories that I have.

47

And I shared that, and it was

funny 'cause I had a half an hour

48

to do a quick intro with the team.

49

And I ended my story crying right

at the end of the 30 minutes.

50

Wow.

51

And I hadn't really thought I was

experimenting and playing around,

52

and I hadn't really thought through

what I was gonna say after that.

53

And nobody knew what to say.

54

They just stared at me like what was that?

55

It was an intentional

choice to tell the story.

56

I needed to create authenticity,

vulnerability and speed of trust.

57

So it was the right thing to do.

58

Now I might think through what I

say on the back end of it, but it

59

was probably a good two minutes

before anybody said anything.

60

And the comment was, we never

expected that and it was beautiful.

61

And the conversations that happened

after that, as I did more of the

62

one-on-ones with the team went deep fast.

63

So it was an experiment that I probably

should have done earlier in my career

64

and I will certainly do so again with

probably some improvements on the process.

65

Speaker: So I think you

tied it back together again.

66

That's what an amazing story.

67

But you said, the word speed came

up in the interview process and but

68

then you went to vulnerability and

this doesn't compute for me exactly.

69

Help me put the two together here.

70

Speaker 3: In my opinion, the more

our employees or the leaders with

71

whom we work sees as authentic the

faster we can start to work together.

72

Better, deeper, more quickly,

and more meaningfully.

73

In my opinion, vulnerability

plays to authenticity.

74

So in my mind there's a direct connection

from vulnerability and stretching and

75

sharing more of yourself even at risk

sometimes into authenticity and how you

76

are perceived to then translate to the

speed with which you can work together.

77

The speed with which they can

also share back to you and

78

that you can work together.

79

Speaker: So you're skipping

the small talk almost, right?

80

If you will.

81

And getting of right down to business, but

the business of trust effectively, right?

82

Because you're opening up and hopefully.

83

Creating space for others as well.

84

That's right.

85

That's amazing.

86

So you're talking about some

of the practical elements

87

associated with that as well.

88

So did this so it sounds like there

was a big exhale or a pause in the

89

room at that point, but then tell

me a bit about what the impact

90

was in the coming days and weeks.

91

Speaker 3: So after that, I had

one-on-ones with each of my team members.

92

But the conversations weren't that

this is what I'm doing day to day, or

93

this is the business that I'm leading

or driving or the challenge I'm having

94

it was here's who I am as a person.

95

Here's what I'm about and how

working at Wedgewood plays to my

96

core and what's meaningful to me.

97

Which was amazing, right?

98

It usually takes a little while to

get to that depth of conversation.

99

But it didn't.

100

The other thing is I have a roadmap.

101

I have a one pager that

kind of my life on a page.

102

So I'd sent that.

103

We've got 43 leaders, 43 executives.

104

I'd sent that out to all the leaders.

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So when you start a conversation with

somebody who said, I saw your page and

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I lost my mom when I was young too.

107

That is a way different conversation

starter for somebody technically, in

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that it was one of our remote sites.

109

And that's how we began the conversation.

110

So things just it was a different way to

start a role and create it and play to a

111

much deeper conversation out of the gate.

112

Speaker: Now that you're in the role

and hopefully you've gained some

113

trust across the team, you're rolling

up your sleeves and getting to work.

114

Often, when you're coming in as a new

leader there's a lot of work to do.

115

There's a reason you're hired, right?

116

There's a and change management

is often a key part of that.

117

What's been the process in

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2025 Versus if you're building and

scaling HR teams in previous years.

119

What's different?

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Speaker 3: It's funny.

121

So Wedgewood does veterinary

pharmaceuticals or pet pharmaceuticals.

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And we've had a perfect storm in

this industry with respect to federal

123

regulations competitive marketplace

price, compression and challenges.

124

But I'm finding that every

industry is having their own

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perfect storm or inflection point.

126

Yeah I think it's everybody.

127

So it was COVID and with

COVID it hit everyone.

128

But then coming out of COVID,

I don't think any of us have

129

gotten stable back on our feet.

130

I think we're still

struggling through a lot.

131

So Wedgewood had its

own challenges, right?

132

So 40-year-old company that had financial

challenges more pervasively than they

133

had in the past, which created a set of

actions that put everybody on their heels.

134

So we had to think about

how to come from a more.

135

A very large market penetration good

brand recognition to a future at a

136

current and a future that was less robust.

137

And how do we build a, build the

transformation needed to really

138

orient us towards the future.

139

So we have examples of that from a company

perspective, but from an HR standpoint

140

what I'd done is built best, right?

141

So from my past and my peer group,

understood where we were in comparison

142

to where the market was or could be.

143

And then I started to

dream about the future.

144

I put what I thought could be

26, 27 objectives together.

145

And then started playing around with

ChatGPT, which I've worked with enough.

146

Then it knows my tone, tenor voice

and the way I like to work things.

147

I did the right prompting and programming

and brought out HR consultative leader

148

financial acumen driving the future,

but threw in all the right words.

149

But what it gave back was something

really cool and provocative

150

and an iterative step further.

151

So I had a strategy session with

my team and what I'd done between

152

what I'd come up with for current

future and next in future steps.

153

And then playing around with AI came back

154

This is where we're at.

155

And your role as pre-work.

156

Before coming into the meetings to

build a path from where we're at now,

157

to where we need to go for the future.

158

And, that created just a really

robust set of discussions.

159

So by functional area, by how we partner

together, by how we have to think

160

differently, by how we have to interface

and lead our management team differently.

161

We had to be much more provocative,

much more willing to say no, and

162

much more oriented towards having

a challenging business dialogue and

163

getting into ROI discussions so it.

164

Looking at the future meant we had

to work differently in the present.

165

You can't run a marathon and start from

ground zero without actually starting

166

to walk a mile and then jog a mile.

167

So it was really cool to see how

we started to think through, okay,

168

so I'm gonna run a quarter marathon

and then to do that, I need to

169

start doing the following things.

170

Speaker: So there's a

lot to unpack in there.

171

It sounds like you started ideating with

your thought partner here in an LLM and

172

then took that as the bones to have great

conversations with your leadership team.

173

And then I think you brought

everyone together pretty soon, right?

174

Into a, into an offsite.

175

So tell me about that, like that

process and how you thought about

176

this the time spent together as a

broader HR team in relation to thinking

177

ahead many years down the line.

178

Speaker 3: Let's, to be honest, it is

so easy to fall into the day-to-day

179

and just the practical work that need

to be done which is generally either

180

tactical, execution oriented or reactive.

181

So so the opportunity for the team

and I to dream together, right?

182

Through, and I said, listen,

183

It may not be right.

184

So if you've got a different

objective, reset it.

185

Restate it.

186

So there was some of that but to

come together for two days and

187

build the dream of the future.

188

Speaker: Yeah.

189

Speaker 3: How do we take a very

heart-based, passionate, purpose-driven

190

organization and enable a dream where

there is a strong growth mindset,

191

viable future with business acumen and

leaders that are invigorated and we've

192

got a magnetic brand that just attracts

people automatically, therefore we've

193

got no need for pipeline generation.

194

'cause it already exists, right?

195

That, just the time and value of stepping

back, not as an individual, but as

196

a team to dream together and see how

you can manifest that and play it out.

197

But, it wasn't easy, right?

198

So it wasn't easy because you, get stuck

in the I have to take an emergency call.

199

So people were getting pulled

every once in a while, right?

200

We tried to put a stop to that.

201

The other part of it was that.

202

With all that we have to do right now,

there was an obvious challenge or blocker

203

with respect to how are we gonna get

there when we can't get the basics done.

204

So we derailed for two hours of a

two day meeting and, had to talk

205

about, okay, if I'm doing this much

administration or I don't have this

206

technology, or I can't I can't say no

to this management team because of.

207

So we got derailed for a while and then

we spent an hour on what are the enablers

208

that we need to make real, to drive

the change we need for the business.

209

So each of the COEs and the HR

generalists took their own objectives

210

away and their own responsibility

to try to drive the future.

211

And then the enablers was mine.

212

So I've got 17 enablers for the

business that I need to start punching

213

through and knocking down walls.

214

And breaking barriers to try

to make sure that they don't

215

get impeded in their growth.

216

Speaker: So you're getting at some of

the core tension points like I often see.

217

Which is even, especially as a

new leader, but in general, right?

218

If you're, for anyone who's trying

to look ahead and skate to where

219

the puck is going, as they say and

think and dream, dream big, right?

220

There's the realities of

there's, we're stuck in the muck

221

working on all this stuff today.

222

Maybe it's administrative, maybe

it's tactical, maybe it's a bunch

223

of work that is associated with one

or a couple of functional areas that

224

you're partnering with, where there's

some wheels are squeakier than others.

225

And it's hard sometimes for people to

think a couple years ahead when they

226

can't get through breakfast, right?

227

Including very practically when

you just think, Hey, let's pause

228

and bring the whole team together

and, focus a little bit, right?

229

Speaker 3: Right.

230

Speaker: How do you navigate that tension?

231

Especially when you're new, right?

232

Where to be transparent I, would

look at you and say, great, you don't

233

have anything on your plate yet.

234

You just so I've got all this stuff,

we all have all this stuff, and

235

there's baggage and there's all

this stuff that we're coming into

236

this in our everyday day to day.

237

And it's, really hard for me to

get with it when we have I feel

238

like there's so much work that we

already can't quite get behind.

239

So tell me about how you, navigate that.

240

I think you you're, using the word

enablers, it feels maybe that's some

241

of the answer, but tell me about how

you're engaging with the team, which

242

I think a lot of HR leaders have folks

who are just overburdened at this point.

243

Right.

244

Speaker 3: So in the

past I felt preyed to.

245

If I got through my email queue,

I felt good when I left that day.

246

And boy, that is not a statement

of value or productivity.

247

Yeah.

248

It's just you got through your email.

249

Speaker: Right.

250

Speaker 3: So to your question, it

was important enough that I flew the

251

team in that we prioritize the time.

252

We had a phones down policy.

253

And but, more broadly, I so I just had

one of my leaders from California in

254

for the last couple of days, and we had

an hour before she left and we were, we

255

started to get into the details and I

said, stop let, and I put the paper aside.

256

I said, let's go back to what are

the biggest things we need to do to

257

drive the value in this business.

258

And we started to chunk through the

the laundry list and then the things

259

that were really gonna move the needle.

260

So the onus as a leader is always on us.

261

We've gotta find the time, prioritize

the time, and make it whether it be

262

when you're out for a jog or on your

drive home commuting or whatever.

263

For me, it's funny so I

share vulnerability for me.

264

Sometimes it's in the shower.

265

I don't know.

266

I don't know why I work really well late

at night, so 10 o'clock my mind fires up.

267

So sometimes that's when I pull

back and I, I actually try to

268

do some of my strategic work.

269

We're in the shower.

270

I'm really my to-do list flows and

I start to jot out the, couple of

271

things that are most important.

272

But we've gotta it's on us to find the

time where we're less tactical, most

273

creative, most strategic and optimize

that time and take advantage of it.

274

Speaker: Yeah, and it sounds like it

was very productive because you actually

275

got to disagreements or the crux of

like different bottlenecks and whether

276

it's across the HR team or in terms of

how you're interacting with the rest

277

of the org, which led to these very

specific outcomes, which still lined

278

up to the broader dream and the vision.

279

But there's a, these step the half

marathons and the, stepping stones along

280

the way that you got to alignment on.

281

Speaker 3: I can't express

how valuable that was.

282

'cause it was, there was clearly

dissent in the room, right?

283

And

284

it was, palpable.

285

You could feel the tension that had

been created and I could have plowed

286

through and stuck with the agenda.

287

Or we could have, but it wasn't the

right thing to do because you knew that

288

it would suboptimize the final outcome.

289

So there's a lot with that, right?

290

As a leader, we've gotta be servant

oriented drop the ego, be receptive.

291

Sometimes if, and when I meditate

after that, I find that I hear things

292

differently and I listen differently.

293

In that moment, I listened and I heard

the tension and I realized that I could

294

choose to play into that or ignore it.

295

And ignoring meant that I

wouldn't have full team support

296

or alliance going forward.

297

So I chose to go into it, but

that, that was probably the most

298

productive conversation in the two

days we had together, that hour we

299

spent on what's going to block us.

300

What's going to disable our success here?

301

And as we listed them out,

then the flip was true.

302

Okay, so if these are the blockers,

what do we need to do to get

303

through the blockers or to make

sure they don't slow us down?

304

So that became the enablers.

305

And, that's been really helpful.

306

And in that it's important to

my team and I, that we drive

307

the right type of progress.

308

I've been updating the team on a

monthly basis on what we've been able

309

to do with respect to the enablers.

310

At no point has it gone away.

311

We keep it live and vibrant so they know

that I'm making sure that I'm keeping my

312

end of the bargain so that they know that

they've got the bandwidth to do theirs.

313

Speaker: Okay I heard servant leadership

in there, and then the idea that the

314

enablers, which are, which is in large

part the resolution of some of the tension

315

and the the trade-offs between the team

that's blocking them from seeing the dream

316

crucially went to you, and you are staying

in front of the team by taking steps.

317

And updating them on how

you're working towards that.

318

So this is a great model for

getting the team together.

319

But you mentioned one thing which

is just as important for any HR team

320

to be successful is in how you work

with your external stakeholders.

321

And I think you said in there we are

also deciding what are the things

322

that we're saying no to externally.

323

It's an interesting concept because what

I hear often is our HR teams that are

324

asked to do more with less often, right?

325

So I keep saying yes to, to

everything, and there's actually

326

gonna be less and less time.

327

And that kind of goes

back to that mindset.

328

I feel like it's almost

like a vicious cycle, right?

329

For it's like a recipe for getting

into the administrative and tactical

330

constantly, but how do you how do

you, the team or in broadly, how do

331

you think about that resolution where

you're pushing back to the business

332

and your stakeholders outside of the

function saying, we're prioritizing X

333

and not, this, or saying no effectively.

334

Speaker 3: So I forgot that I said

I would have one of these handy,

335

but I'll get to this in a second.

336

Okay.

337

So

338

we have to be articulate in the value

we're trying to drive for the business.

339

And it's, funny because shortly

thereafter I was subbing in, so one of

340

our team went on vacation for two weeks.

341

So they had an employee come and I

was, and I said I'd help 'em out.

342

So I was doing a change of address okay.

343

So that's probably not where the CHRO or

CPO should be spending their time helping

344

an employee with change of address.

345

But it was interesting.

346

It's okay.

347

And I helped her, right?

348

But, it's, our systems and tools

aren't obvious enough, so they can't do

349

self-sufficient support or self-driven.

350

Their manager wasn't capable or enabled,

so they didn't know how to help.

351

So the person had come.

352

So, it played to some of the.

353

Some of the disablers that we

knew we needed to turn around.

354

So how are we doing our

our employee handbook?

355

Are we making it AI friendly?

356

Can people search it?

357

Can they do it on mobile?

358

And that we've got a

large hourly population.

359

So, it played through.

360

But one of the things I told my

team is always know the objective

361

we're trying to drive and adding

the optimal value to the business.

362

And, if we're getting pulled

into a discussion that is

363

less than, or other than.

364

Make sure you know your

priority order right?

365

So here are the things I'm working

to drive now, jane, Jim, John Doe,

366

whoever leader we're supporting is

what you're asking me more important

367

than these three things that I'm

working on as my strategic priorities.

368

And then I also said, know that

when you get into a fight with

369

your leaders, I've got your back.

370

And, I want to, what I want to I'll go

back to a story in a second but I gave

371

all of my team a get outta jail free card.

372

Speaker: Nice.

373

Wedgewood jail.

374

So you guys have constructed

your own jail in there.

375

Speaker 3: Did you see the bars?

376

Proverbially speaking but it was

funny because the company Wedgewood

377

has long been very customer oriented,

where we would make pharmaceuticals

378

for vets and for pets or animals.

379

No matter what the request, whether

it made sense or not, whether it

380

was one, one consumption or one

dose versus a hundred thousand doses

381

what, whether it was profitable.

382

So we had to get more finite around

and we continue to do that around

383

greater value for the client.

384

But not every client, not

every single request or need.

385

So that's analogous to what

the HR team here needed to do.

386

Not every request is the same.

387

Some have higher priority, higher value

or, longer lasting and sticking power the

388

encouragement for the team is to always

be, always shuffling your priority list.

389

There are things that are emergencies that

just have to get handled but, know that

390

it's okay to push back on your leaders.

391

One of the things I said in a prior

role is the leaders on my team had such

392

trust from those, they supported the HR

team had such trust from the leaders.

393

They supported that.

394

The leader would tell me

they could push me harder.

395

I need them to be more provocative.

396

So my comment to them was, if I don't

get a call from your client once a

397

quarter angry at you because you've made

them mad, pissed them off, pushed them

398

too hard, you're not doing your job.

399

Now how, is that to set as a bogey?

400

You should anger your client

once per quarter so that they're

401

calling me and, know that when

they do, I'll have your back.

402

So it's a different way of thinking

about provision of support.

403

So it's not, we take every

order we handle every request.

404

It is there is a priority and

my client isn't the leader.

405

My client is the business.

406

So at times that means I'm

gonna push the leader because.

407

I see them having greater

value for the business.

408

So we need to change how we're thinking

about who we support and what we support.

409

Because if my leader, my

client is the CEO, I'm gonna

410

try to make the CEO satisfied.

411

If my clients the business, then there

are times I'm gonna say things to our CEO.

412

They may not like, but is

in my opinion, what's in the

413

best interest of the business.

414

Speaker: And the same applies for

every every HR business partner

415

all the way down the line to

any HRG or whatever they're on.

416

Whatever they're working on.

417

So that's right.

418

And part of that, I think to enable that.

419

And it's great that there's so much trust.

420

'cause if anything,

you'd love that, right?

421

Versus, versus being a dearth of that.

422

But part of this I think you're

telling me that you actually lined up

423

mentors for all of your direct reports.

424

I imagine that's one of the The

425

The use case that you just mentioned,

the pushing, back on leadership and

426

that's a part of the enablement of

that, I imagine, but probably much else.

427

But what inspired you to to go with

that concept of getting mentorship

428

for everyone that is a direct

429

Speaker 3: it, how it's always

valuable to have an open, free,

430

trusted resource to serve as a sounding

board shadow for you to work through.

431

Content.

432

And to do that, so I, it's funny 'cause

across my COEs, so the four leaders,

433

five that, that I've aligned a mentor

for one's technology, one's healthcare,

434

one's financial services it, it's been a

one's retail actually That's very funny.

435

Not a single one is from

the same marketplace.

436

Speaker: Oh, okay.

437

Speaker 3: But they're all amazing

individuals who've had a diverse

438

set of experiences having led

provocatively in challenging

439

situations to a better future state.

440

So I handpicked because I knew the

experiences they had and how that was

441

analogous to where we were, although

just a greater maturation in the

442

journey than we're at right now.

443

So I wanted them to be a light in the

storm of, directionally where we can go.

444

Speaker 4: This has been a

fantastic conversation so far.

445

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

446

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

447

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

448

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

449

can all tHRive in the age of AI.

450

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

451

community.

452

Now back to the show.

453

Speaker: Got it.

454

And so these are, and so obviously

outside of the organization, folks in

455

your network, CHROs aspo as opposed

to, or in the, from the HR function.

456

So it's like functional mentorship, right?

457

Speaker 3: That's right.

458

Speaker: So let's talk a little bit

about here's a fun way to introduce it.

459

Why while ChatGPT can be your

thought partner for helping set up

460

an offsite or a strategic dreaming

process it may not be a mentor.

461

But tell me a little bit about how

AI has played into this whole process

462

that we've been talking about right.

463

Around planning for the future for the.

464

Organization overall, but

certainly for the HR function.

465

Speaker 3: Yeah,

466

we talk about, so I talk about trying

to get comfortable and discomfort, so I

467

need to stretch myself on a daily basis.

468

And so as I was, so for the company, we

we moved the family down to Philadelphia.

469

But it was funny.

470

I was like, I hadn't played with

the voice version of ChatGPT.

471

So on the way home I'm like

help me think through the move.

472

Certainly.

473

How can I do so we started talking about

moving out of the old house into the new

474

things that needed to be canceled set up.

475

I was like all verbally.

476

Speaker: Yeah.

477

Speaker 3: I'm like, wow, this is

we talked for an hour and a half

478

Speaker: Yeah.

479

Speaker 3: And had a really robust plan.

480

And I shared it with my wife.

481

She's like, how'd you do this?

482

When did you do this?

483

You were driving.

484

Speaker: Ha.

485

Speaker 3: So I'm, constantly

trying to seek out new, better,

486

different ways of leveraging ai.

487

Fascinatingly, I had it.

488

The team was working on a

cost of turnover equation.

489

And it had been refuted about

a year ago because it didn't

490

seem to have the right details.

491

So we went back at it what's the, time

to so for departure, what's the cost to.

492

Repost to interview, to onboard,

to train, et cetera, et cetera.

493

So we went through all those pieces

of puzzle and we started to get a

494

little more finite with respect to

interviewing managers and getting a

495

really reasonably thorough assessment

of time consumption, valuation

496

manager value per hour, et cetera,

et cetera, and came up with a number.

497

But out of curiosity, I was

playing with ChatGPT as well.

498

And I threw in comparable conversation

points, job skills, location, et cetera.

499

And, ironically the two weeks that my

team had taken and the 40 minutes that

500

I'd taken on ChatGPT came out on a value

that was over $10,000, only $300 apart.

501

So it's quite close.

502

Yeah, it's quite close.

503

I'm, constantly trying to play around

and ask new, better, different things and

504

challenge my own assumptions and use it

as a thought partner to get more creative.

505

What haven't I considered here?

506

What could I do there?

507

How could I be a little more

provocative in this space?

508

It's.

509

Now, it's not always perfect and you've

always gotta take a lens of scrutiny

510

towards what it comes back with.

511

But, in, in a thought partner,

in a creative partner,

512

it's been quite valuable.

513

Speaker: So what about the.

514

HR function more, broadly, would you say?

515

So are there major applications that

you're seeing that you've already

516

experimented with for the function

or just ones that you are excited

517

about the team experimenting around?

518

Speaker 3: There's some basics, right?

519

I really wanna take our handbook and get

it on a NotebookLM so that we've got more

520

user friendly, more mobile accessible.

521

I think there are

opportunities with recognition.

522

So what I want.

523

What I want is an AI interface to my

HRIS that says Jane Doe worked overtime

524

three times in the last two weeks.

525

And you may want to, as a manager,

you may wanna say thank you.

526

Or their spouse's birthday or their

child's birthday has come up from

527

what we can see in their contact list.

528

Do a give them, enable the

manager to be the best emotionally

529

intelligent leader they can be.

530

To have AI send it and say, Zane, happy

birthday, I'm not there, there's no value.

531

But if it sends a note to my CEO who

then says, Hey, by the way, happy

532

birthday, that's different, right?

533

So how can we leverage HRIS plus

AI to be as emotionally astute

534

in leading people as we can?

535

And that's, those are some of the

things I get excited about that I'm

536

sure it, I'm sure it's being done

and it exists in places we haven't

537

gotten or matured to that point yet.

538

Speaker: That's interesting, right?

539

Because it's the kind of thing

which just falls to the back of the

540

mind and for most managers, right?

541

It's a, there's so much

going on in the day to day.

542

It's these little reminders in the, right,

in the moment of the of these moments

543

that matter in the employee journey.

544

The manager the, HR function,

but also managers have such a

545

big opportunity there, right?

546

To make things more delightful.

547

Speaker 3: You think about it.

548

I don't know if, so this is an Oura Ring.

549

Have you heard of that?

550

Speaker: Yes.

551

Speaker 3: Which is good.

552

I don't go crazy about it.

553

It tells me the quality of sleep I'm

getting or not getting more often.

554

But then also you've been

it's time to move around.

555

Think about if you just made that

analogous analogy for the manager,

556

by the way these two people have

carried the overtime for the,

557

department, or this may have happened,

or they just took a training class.

558

Go and ask them what they

valued from it and if they could

559

share that with their team.

560

Just give me those little nudges that

make me, and help me be a better leader.

561

Speaker: Love it.

562

Speaker 3: Because at the end of

the day, it's management capability.

563

How they invest in their team, how they

build and grow capability with their team.

564

That's how you beget engagement.

565

That's how you beget retention.

566

And all of that over time

drives productivity and value.

567

Speaker: So if I were to ask you about,

or to think broadly about either the

568

enablement outcomes that you've come up

with as a team or just the dream state for

569

three to five years out how much of that

is about is about technology versus not?

570

And I imagine primarily AI and things

like ideas like this versus really

571

about just the people and how you

interact with each other, adding

572

mentorship challenging your leaders.

573

Speaker 3: That's such a hard question.

574

So, for my dream

575

my dream is to have a company where

there is constant provision of care,

576

concern and feedback so as to hold each

individual at its highest, at our highest

577

capability level, where we can all shine

as brightly as humanly possible, and how

578

we find a way to interact and make an

even greater whole from the sum of parts.

579

I wish I recorded that.

580

You recorded this so got it.

581

There we go.

582

Speaker: Perfectly said

583

Speaker 3: I want to have AI

be a component piece of how we.

584

Enable people to shine brightly.

585

Now we're in a world where we're talking

about Agentic AI and how teams are

586

gonna be part ai advisors or with humans

and, how we're gonna partner together.

587

And some of those mental explorations.

588

It's tough to wrap your head around.

589

Speaker: Yeah

590

Speaker 3: Do I have a team of 20, 10 of

whom are AI and 10 of whom are people?

591

I won't go down that path.

592

I go back to the dream and the vision

I have of how can we have AI be a

593

component piece for bringing the

best, the absolute best and most out

594

of every employee in the company.

595

Speaker: I love that.

596

And you'll get, to

where you get to, right?

597

In terms of whatever that means in terms

of headcount planning or tools or hiring

598

or shifting shifting things around in

terms of skill sets and titles even.

599

If you're looking ahead, what

does that future proof HR

600

department look like for you?

601

That sees that dream to reality.

602

Speaker 3: Right?

603

Boy, it has to be

constantly shifting, right?

604

We have to be always learning, always

experimenting, always exploring, right?

605

There's no comfort zone anymore.

606

It that.

607

Maybe it used to.

608

I don't know.

609

I feel like we've been on a 15, 20 year

journey of just doing more, more better,

610

different than we did in the past.

611

But it's certainly not there now

so, I want a dynamic team who

612

we're always in the question of

how can we add the most value?

613

And listening, really actively

listening so as to find the opportunity

614

to engage at a different level.

615

I the case in point of

the story I told earlier.

616

I was listening, so I heard that there

was dissent in the team and palpable.

617

Maybe it wasn't easy here, right?

618

Maybe it was easy for me to

have heard but, you could have

619

plowed through it and gone on.

620

But I need, my HR community to be

listening to emotion, need, space gap,

621

opportunity for growth and engaging in

a different way than just staying fully

622

aligned with driving a business objective.

623

Because that's not always going, what's

going to yield the greatest outcome?

624

Sometimes it's gonna be like, can I

take five minutes aside and permission

625

to give feedback in the moment.

626

And, what I see is what you've

done well and where you could

627

be even better if this happened.

628

So it's a, team who are dynamic and

flexible and really conversant and

629

eloquent with finding gaps and spaces to

provide opportunity for growth in others

630

and therefore also back to ourselves.

631

Speaker: I love that vision.

632

So let's maybe circle back to

the beginning a little bit of

633

what we talked about, because I

think it's really interesting.

634

So the concept of vulnerability,

which is I think you've equated it to.

635

Earning an accelerating

speed of trust, right?

636

Yes.

637

Earning trust and accelerating

the speed at which that's earned.

638

And it's difficult for leaders.

639

Let's say you're advising me or let's

say your peers, you're talking to your

640

peers or HR leaders who are interested

in being more vulnerable in some kind

641

of meaningful way, what advice would

you have for someone to do that?

642

And I'll just leave this one underline.

643

'cause the whole point is

to be authentic, right?

644

I think that's part of what you mentioned.

645

So how can you show vulnerability

without saying, all right, I'm gonna

646

plan this thing out and do it in

this way for this intended emotional

647

effect versus being authentic.

648

Speaker 3: It's so fun that

you asked that question.

649

'cause I was just coaching somebody

about a week ago on this exact topic.

650

So my advice to her was, think

through the last time you cried,

651

authentically, discernibly cried.

652

And if you haven't in a couple of

years and you can't think of something,

653

think about the hardest thing you've

had to go through emotionally.

654

Now, picture yourself telling

that story to no less than four

655

or five colleagues together.

656

Now, if you can do that with ease,

you haven't gone deep enough.

657

If it makes you.

658

Petrified fearful.

659

That may be too far but know that

the right zone is where you're

660

really uncomfortable doing it, but

you're willing to take the risk

661

and stretch and then do right?

662

We've got to, it's just a muscle that

we need to exercise and work, so we've

663

gotta put ourselves out there and be

willing to look bad, be willing to

664

be foolish at times, be willing to

show emotion because in doing so, I.

665

I, I shared with you the

journey I've been on.

666

The more I share and the more

I break down, the more I show

667

vulnerability or show emotion.

668

People come up to me and they're like,

that was so meaningful, and I I've

669

had this happen and, or now that I've

seen it can be done I wanna do it.

670

I want some of that.

671

We all have to we have to create this

space in place to do and then show and

672

lead by example so that others have

that opportunity to, and boy I, have a

673

vision where we're all more open, more

vulnerable, more of ourselves in a way

674

that we are safe to do and we can see,

when I think about being my best self,

675

I have to bring my whole self to work.

676

But that, but my whole self is

I'm visionary and strategic, but

677

I'm emotional and wear my heart

on my sleeve and both are true.

678

And I need to work at a

place where both can be true.

679

Speaker: So what about the

pushback on this where it's

680

it's maybe easy for you to do.

681

But in my experience and

in many workplaces it's

682

actually not rewarded, right?

683

When you're, actually like vulnerable, it

looks you're putting your weaknesses on

684

display, especially in leadership roles.

685

And at least that's the,

narrative that goes through

686

people's mind and is at least.

687

Partially describes the fear that in, when

you're imagining that very visceral event

688

that you're imagining sharing, right?

689

Is there some validity to that,

argument that there's there's a there's

690

like a downside to being vulnerable

and you have to be careful and you

691

actually can't bring your whole self

to work because ultimately it's work.

692

There's a difference

between family and work,

693

Speaker 3: right?

694

I go back to the muscle analogy, right?

695

It's exercise that we need to begin doing.

696

So if you, don't feel, if you feel like

you work in a fully toxic environment with

697

no psychological safety, then you're gonna

exercise and make decisions you need to,

698

but then you probably have a friend group

or a sports league or a community where

699

you can experiment and you can play I find

vulnerability very similar to risk, right?

700

Risk to, put yourself out there and to.

701

Have the opportunity for rejection.

702

Once you're rejected one time, that hurt,

but then after you're rejected a hundred

703

times, it just doesn't hurt so bad.

704

Right.

705

the, what was the story about the

person who made these ridiculous

706

asks and the next thing he knew

he was getting the Olympic medals

707

in Dunkin' Donuts colored donuts,

708

Speaker: Wait, I...

709

all of this.

710

I have to look up this.

711

I don't know the story.

712

I'm gonna look it up.

713

We're gonna add it to the show notes.

714

I'm sure there's a story here.

715

There's a great story.

716

So he basically started asking

for things that were crazy, right?

717

And, he said he was gonna go

on a mission and just do the

718

unreasonable and the unthinkable.

719

So he just asked for things that

he thought nobody would say yes to.

720

And he said, what was

fascinating to me is that.

721

And I think he went many

days with no after, no.

722

But then what was fascinating is people

thought about it a little bit and

723

what he realized is he needed to put

a little rationale behind it of why it

724

was important or convey the emotion or

the sentiment behind it or the value.

725

But then he got really good at

asking, and he said it was awkwardly

726

frequent where people would say yes.

727

And an example of where they said

yes is he went to Dunkin' Donuts,

728

Speaker 3: and he asked if he

could get five donuts shaped in

729

and put like the Olympic rings.

730

And the initial answer was no.

731

And he he didn't, give up at the, no, but

he retorted and he asked another question,

732

so they were gone for 10 minutes.

733

He was waiting for a manager to come out

and say, I'm sorry, we can't do that.

734

But then there you go.

735

Lo and behold, he had the Olympic rings

and that was an inflection point for him

736

where he realized that there was something

on how you make the ask and the frequency

737

of ask and just moving through rejection.

738

So amazing.

739

We just went, we went on

a way tangent, sideline.

740

Speaker: Yeah.

741

Yeah.

742

Yeah.

743

Speaker 3: So that's, in my mind, that is

taking risk, making an ask that you think

744

is gonna be no, and then working through

the rejection around aligned with risk.

745

The same is true with vulnerability.

746

So vulnerability by default and

by definition is a risk, right?

747

Yeah.

748

So you're putting yourself out there and

your emotion, your heart out there, you

749

don't know how it's gonna be received.

750

So on both, whether it be taking risk

or on vulnerability, I would encourage

751

anybody and everybody to find an audience

where they think it might be safe.

752

Try it out, then test yourself a

little more and push a little further.

753

Go to an area where you think

it may not be quite as safe, and

754

test it out and see what happens.

755

And my experimentation has been, the more

I've done it, the more receptively it's

756

been met and the more value it's created.

757

I did it with with a set of relative

new hires a couple of years ago, and

758

I talked about how I'd gotten the

lowest performance appraisal in IBM

759

at the time, and the challenge and

the emotion that hit me with but,

760

I was a VP in IBM at that juncture.

761

So they said, wait, you can get the

lowest appraisal and still have a

762

career and, move towards vice president.

763

I said, yes.

764

The questions that float from that

in the willingness to be vulnerable.

765

Were.

766

We're really provocative and it

gave people hope on, so you can have

767

setbacks, you can have career derailers,

but that doesn't mean it's derailed.

768

It's just a point in the journey

from which you can recover.

769

So I would say the same.

770

So whether it's risk or

vulnerability, test yourself.

771

Push yourself outta your comfort zone.

772

Go a little further and deeper.

773

Take a couple of hit backs or setbacks,

and then take hits or setbacks and then

774

recover and keep going at it and see

if you find that there's more value.

775

Than detriment.

776

And in my experimentation there has

almost consistently been more value.

777

Speaker: Right.

778

And similar to the guy I guess tweaking

his methodology with the asks, right?

779

Where there's, something there,

there's some experimentation

780

where you almost get better at it.

781

Like a muscle.

782

That could probably be whether

it's with asks, there's also maybe

783

something similar right around like

how, you're being vulnerable or just

784

doing it more often will make it

more authentic maybe in practice.

785

So I think that's a wonderful

note to, to end on here, Zane.

786

So that this conversation

has been very interesting.

787

At the face of it, we're talking about

what it means to come in as a new HR lead.

788

As an HR leader.

789

Into a, in an organization for the first

790

yourself up for success potentially.

791

But through that context, I think we

talked obviously about vulnerability and

792

at least for me, you've equated it with.

793

This concept I haven't really thought

about before, whether it's equating

794

vulnerability with risk taking behavior.

795

It's just like almost polar

opposites in terms of my, what I

796

think about in my brain, but also

vulnerability as a skill, right?

797

That you can develop with

with practice and also with.

798

Serious productivity impact, right?

799

Speed to trust, which then maps to

getting to things getting done faster.

800

And then we also talked about all

the practicalities, like with an HR

801

team the, balance that's constantly

there of dreaming big versus, filling

802

out a change of address request as

the CHRO and everything in between,

803

and how you can balance those two.

804

But while you're pushing back internally

as well as externally within the

805

organization, there's so many nuances

for anyone listening for their own orgs.

806

But I think it's a fascinating a

point of departure to think about

807

what people can take away as they're

looking to future proof and build a

808

dreams for their own organizations.

809

That was a much

810

Speaker 3: more eloquent

summary than I could have done.

811

Thank you.

812

Speaker: No, it was it, was wonderful.

813

For everyone who's out there listening

for nuggets of insight on how you can

814

future proof your, own organizations

and your own HR functions, I think

815

there are more than a few here.

816

So thank you for that.

817

Zane, this has been a wonderful

conversation and thanks once

818

again and see you on the next one.

819

Speaker 3: Thank you.

820

Speaker: Bye now.

821

Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us

on this episode of Future Proof HR.

822

If you like the discussion, make

sure you leave us a five star

823

review on the platform you're

listening to or watching us on.

824

Or share this with a friend or colleague

who may find value in the message.

825

See you next time as we keep our pulse on

how we can all thrive in the age of AI.