Shownotes
In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary, sits down with Zane Zumbahlen, Chief People Officer at Wedgewood, to explore what it really means to lead HR through transformation from day one and why vulnerability might be the most underrated strategic tool a leader has.
With a career spanning technology, finance, and healthcare, Zane brings a cross-functional perspective on how to build trust fast, dream boldly, and still get the basics done. He shares how stepping into a company facing real business headwinds led him to experiment with radical authenticity and how that one decision changed everything about how his team showed up.
Together, they explore how Zane used AI as a thought partner to build a 2028 HR vision, what happened when he brought his team together to dream and got derailed by reality, and why the best thing he did was give his team a "get out of jail free card" to push back on the business.
Zane also shares why vulnerability is a learnable skill, not a personality trait and how practicing it, like a muscle, can accelerate trust, deepen relationships, and make HR teams more effective in ways that no tool or process can replicate.
Topics Discussed:
- Why Zane opened his very first team meeting with a deeply personal story and what happened next
- How vulnerability creates speed of trust and why that matters for new HR leaders
- Using ChatGPT as a strategic thought partner to build a 2028 HR vision
- Running a two-day offsite that got productively derailed and why that was the best outcome
- How to help an overburdened HR team say no strategically and prioritize what actually moves the needle
- Why Zane's client is the business, not the leader and what that means in practice
- Handpicking external mentors from different industries for each direct report
- The future of AI in HR: emotional intelligence nudges, HRIS integration, and enabling managers to lead better
- Vulnerability as a skill you can build and how to start practicing it safely
If you're an HR leader navigating a new role, leading a team through change, or trying to balance the tension between strategic vision and day-to-day execution, this episode offers both a fresh perspective and a practical playbook for leading with courage.
Additional Resources:
- Jia Jiang's TED Talk: What I learned from 100 days of rejection
- Cleary's AI-powered HR Chatbot
- Future Proof HR Community
- Connect with Zane Zumbahlen on LinkedIn
*This conversation with Zane Zumbahlen was recorded in early 2025, shortly after he joined Wedgewood as Chief People Officer.
Transcripts
In my opinion, the more our employees or the leaders with
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whom we work sees as authentic the
faster we can start to work together.
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Better, deeper, more quickly,
and more meaningfully.
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00:00:12,245 --> 00:00:14,916
In my opinion, vulnerability
plays to authenticity.
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Thomas Kunjappu: They keep
telling us that it's all over.
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For HR, the age of AI is upon
us, and that means HR should
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be prepared to be decimated.
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We reject that message.
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The future of HR won't be handed to us.
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Instead, it'll be defined by those
ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.
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Future Proof HR invites these builders to
share what they're trying, how it's going,
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what they've learned, and what's next.
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We are committed to arming HR
with the AI insights to not
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just survive, but to thrive.
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Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Future
Proof HR podcast, where we explore how
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forward-thinking HR leaders prepare for
disruption and redefine what it means
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to lead people in a changing world.
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Today's guest is Zane Zumbahlen,
Chief People Officer at Wedgewood.
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With a career spanning technology,
finance, and healthcare,
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Zane has led global HR teams
through transformations,
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mergers, and rapid growth.
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Known for his collaborative
leadership style.
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He blends experimentation, vulnerability,
and strategic risk taking to
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shape future ready organizations.
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Zane, welcome to the podcast.
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Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
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It's great to be here.
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I have to give ownership collaborative
is my wife's word, if I ever
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claim ownership, she corrects.
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Speaker: I love it.
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If we could get started.
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You were telling me about how you
just joined this organization a few
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months back and as a leader you tried
something a little bit different in
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the way that you got started with
the organization and your team.
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Speaker 3: So as I was interviewing for
the role I had three interviews with the
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CEO and each one of those he talked about
speed and, asked questions about speed.
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So I knew that was of import to
him and how to come on strong.
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I'd never done this in any prior
role, either a company change or
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a job change within a company.
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But I have been playing around
with being more and more vulnerable
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and how much I can share.
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And without going into depth here, but
I lost my parents when I was young.
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I took my very first team meeting,
so I had my 22, 23 people on the team
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call, and I started talking about the
journey I've gone through with life.
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But, then I said I wanna be
real and I want to go deep.
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So here's one of the most
meaningful stories that I have.
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And I shared that, and it was
funny 'cause I had a half an hour
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to do a quick intro with the team.
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And I ended my story crying right
at the end of the 30 minutes.
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Wow.
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And I hadn't really thought I was
experimenting and playing around,
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and I hadn't really thought through
what I was gonna say after that.
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And nobody knew what to say.
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They just stared at me like what was that?
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It was an intentional
choice to tell the story.
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I needed to create authenticity,
vulnerability and speed of trust.
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So it was the right thing to do.
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Now I might think through what I
say on the back end of it, but it
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was probably a good two minutes
before anybody said anything.
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And the comment was, we never
expected that and it was beautiful.
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And the conversations that happened
after that, as I did more of the
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one-on-ones with the team went deep fast.
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So it was an experiment that I probably
should have done earlier in my career
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and I will certainly do so again with
probably some improvements on the process.
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Speaker: So I think you
tied it back together again.
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That's what an amazing story.
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But you said, the word speed came
up in the interview process and but
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then you went to vulnerability and
this doesn't compute for me exactly.
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Help me put the two together here.
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Speaker 3: In my opinion, the more
our employees or the leaders with
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whom we work sees as authentic the
faster we can start to work together.
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Better, deeper, more quickly,
and more meaningfully.
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In my opinion, vulnerability
plays to authenticity.
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So in my mind there's a direct connection
from vulnerability and stretching and
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sharing more of yourself even at risk
sometimes into authenticity and how you
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are perceived to then translate to the
speed with which you can work together.
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The speed with which they can
also share back to you and
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that you can work together.
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Speaker: So you're skipping
the small talk almost, right?
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If you will.
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And getting of right down to business, but
the business of trust effectively, right?
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Because you're opening up and hopefully.
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Creating space for others as well.
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That's right.
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That's amazing.
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So you're talking about some
of the practical elements
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associated with that as well.
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So did this so it sounds like there
was a big exhale or a pause in the
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room at that point, but then tell
me a bit about what the impact
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was in the coming days and weeks.
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Speaker 3: So after that, I had
one-on-ones with each of my team members.
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But the conversations weren't that
this is what I'm doing day to day, or
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this is the business that I'm leading
or driving or the challenge I'm having
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it was here's who I am as a person.
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Here's what I'm about and how
working at Wedgewood plays to my
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core and what's meaningful to me.
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Which was amazing, right?
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It usually takes a little while to
get to that depth of conversation.
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But it didn't.
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The other thing is I have a roadmap.
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I have a one pager that
kind of my life on a page.
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So I'd sent that.
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We've got 43 leaders, 43 executives.
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I'd sent that out to all the leaders.
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So when you start a conversation with
somebody who said, I saw your page and
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I lost my mom when I was young too.
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That is a way different conversation
starter for somebody technically, in
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that it was one of our remote sites.
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And that's how we began the conversation.
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So things just it was a different way to
start a role and create it and play to a
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much deeper conversation out of the gate.
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Speaker: Now that you're in the role
and hopefully you've gained some
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trust across the team, you're rolling
up your sleeves and getting to work.
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Often, when you're coming in as a new
leader there's a lot of work to do.
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There's a reason you're hired, right?
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There's a and change management
is often a key part of that.
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What's been the process in
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2025 Versus if you're building and
scaling HR teams in previous years.
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What's different?
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Speaker 3: It's funny.
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So Wedgewood does veterinary
pharmaceuticals or pet pharmaceuticals.
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And we've had a perfect storm in
this industry with respect to federal
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regulations competitive marketplace
price, compression and challenges.
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But I'm finding that every
industry is having their own
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perfect storm or inflection point.
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Yeah I think it's everybody.
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So it was COVID and with
COVID it hit everyone.
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But then coming out of COVID,
I don't think any of us have
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gotten stable back on our feet.
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I think we're still
struggling through a lot.
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So Wedgewood had its
own challenges, right?
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So 40-year-old company that had financial
challenges more pervasively than they
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had in the past, which created a set of
actions that put everybody on their heels.
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So we had to think about
how to come from a more.
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A very large market penetration good
brand recognition to a future at a
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current and a future that was less robust.
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And how do we build a, build the
transformation needed to really
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orient us towards the future.
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So we have examples of that from a company
perspective, but from an HR standpoint
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what I'd done is built best, right?
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So from my past and my peer group,
understood where we were in comparison
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to where the market was or could be.
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And then I started to
dream about the future.
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I put what I thought could be
26, 27 objectives together.
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And then started playing around with
ChatGPT, which I've worked with enough.
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Then it knows my tone, tenor voice
and the way I like to work things.
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I did the right prompting and programming
and brought out HR consultative leader
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financial acumen driving the future,
but threw in all the right words.
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But what it gave back was something
really cool and provocative
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and an iterative step further.
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So I had a strategy session with
my team and what I'd done between
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what I'd come up with for current
future and next in future steps.
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And then playing around with AI came back
and said, so this is our 2028 objective.
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This is where we're at.
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And your role as pre-work.
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Before coming into the meetings to
build a path from where we're at now,
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to where we need to go for the future.
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And, that created just a really
robust set of discussions.
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So by functional area, by how we partner
together, by how we have to think
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differently, by how we have to interface
and lead our management team differently.
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We had to be much more provocative,
much more willing to say no, and
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much more oriented towards having
a challenging business dialogue and
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getting into ROI discussions so it.
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Looking at the future meant we had
to work differently in the present.
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You can't run a marathon and start from
ground zero without actually starting
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to walk a mile and then jog a mile.
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So it was really cool to see how
we started to think through, okay,
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so I'm gonna run a quarter marathon
and then to do that, I need to
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start doing the following things.
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Speaker: So there's a
lot to unpack in there.
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It sounds like you started ideating with
your thought partner here in an LLM and
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then took that as the bones to have great
conversations with your leadership team.
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And then I think you brought
everyone together pretty soon, right?
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Into a, into an offsite.
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So tell me about that, like that
process and how you thought about
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this the time spent together as a
broader HR team in relation to thinking
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ahead many years down the line.
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Speaker 3: Let's, to be honest, it is
so easy to fall into the day-to-day
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and just the practical work that need
to be done which is generally either
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tactical, execution oriented or reactive.
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So so the opportunity for the team
and I to dream together, right?
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Through, and I said, listen,
this is what I think for 2028.
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It may not be right.
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So if you've got a different
objective, reset it.
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Restate it.
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So there was some of that but to
come together for two days and
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build the dream of the future.
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Speaker: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: How do we take a very
heart-based, passionate, purpose-driven
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organization and enable a dream where
there is a strong growth mindset,
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viable future with business acumen and
leaders that are invigorated and we've
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got a magnetic brand that just attracts
people automatically, therefore we've
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got no need for pipeline generation.
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'cause it already exists, right?
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That, just the time and value of stepping
back, not as an individual, but as
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a team to dream together and see how
you can manifest that and play it out.
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But, it wasn't easy, right?
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So it wasn't easy because you, get stuck
in the I have to take an emergency call.
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So people were getting pulled
every once in a while, right?
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We tried to put a stop to that.
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The other part of it was that.
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With all that we have to do right now,
there was an obvious challenge or blocker
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with respect to how are we gonna get
there when we can't get the basics done.
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So we derailed for two hours of a
two day meeting and, had to talk
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about, okay, if I'm doing this much
administration or I don't have this
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technology, or I can't I can't say no
to this management team because of.
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So we got derailed for a while and then
we spent an hour on what are the enablers
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that we need to make real, to drive
the change we need for the business.
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So each of the COEs and the HR
generalists took their own objectives
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away and their own responsibility
to try to drive the future.
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And then the enablers was mine.
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So I've got 17 enablers for the
business that I need to start punching
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through and knocking down walls.
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And breaking barriers to try
to make sure that they don't
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get impeded in their growth.
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Speaker: So you're getting at some of
the core tension points like I often see.
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Which is even, especially as a
new leader, but in general, right?
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If you're, for anyone who's trying
to look ahead and skate to where
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the puck is going, as they say and
think and dream, dream big, right?
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There's the realities of
there's, we're stuck in the muck
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working on all this stuff today.
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Maybe it's administrative, maybe
it's tactical, maybe it's a bunch
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of work that is associated with one
or a couple of functional areas that
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you're partnering with, where there's
some wheels are squeakier than others.
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And it's hard sometimes for people to
think a couple years ahead when they
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can't get through breakfast, right?
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Including very practically when
you just think, Hey, let's pause
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and bring the whole team together
and, focus a little bit, right?
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker: How do you navigate that tension?
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Especially when you're new, right?
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Where to be transparent I, would
look at you and say, great, you don't
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have anything on your plate yet.
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You just so I've got all this stuff,
we all have all this stuff, and
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there's baggage and there's all
this stuff that we're coming into
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this in our everyday day to day.
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And it's, really hard for me to
get with it when we have I feel
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like there's so much work that we
already can't quite get behind.
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So tell me about how you, navigate that.
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I think you you're, using the word
enablers, it feels maybe that's some
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of the answer, but tell me about how
you're engaging with the team, which
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I think a lot of HR leaders have folks
who are just overburdened at this point.
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Right.
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Speaker 3: So in the
past I felt preyed to.
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If I got through my email queue,
I felt good when I left that day.
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And boy, that is not a statement
of value or productivity.
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Yeah.
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It's just you got through your email.
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Speaker: Right.
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Speaker 3: So to your question, it
was important enough that I flew the
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team in that we prioritize the time.
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We had a phones down policy.
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And but, more broadly, I so I just had
one of my leaders from California in
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for the last couple of days, and we had
an hour before she left and we were, we
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started to get into the details and I
said, stop let, and I put the paper aside.
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I said, let's go back to what are
the biggest things we need to do to
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drive the value in this business.
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And we started to chunk through the
the laundry list and then the things
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that were really gonna move the needle.
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So the onus as a leader is always on us.
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We've gotta find the time, prioritize
the time, and make it whether it be
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when you're out for a jog or on your
drive home commuting or whatever.
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For me, it's funny so I
share vulnerability for me.
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Sometimes it's in the shower.
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I don't know.
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I don't know why I work really well late
at night, so 10 o'clock my mind fires up.
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So sometimes that's when I pull
back and I, I actually try to
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do some of my strategic work.
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We're in the shower.
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I'm really my to-do list flows and
I start to jot out the, couple of
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things that are most important.
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But we've gotta it's on us to find the
time where we're less tactical, most
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creative, most strategic and optimize
that time and take advantage of it.
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Speaker: Yeah, and it sounds like it
was very productive because you actually
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got to disagreements or the crux of
like different bottlenecks and whether
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it's across the HR team or in terms of
how you're interacting with the rest
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of the org, which led to these very
specific outcomes, which still lined
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up to the broader dream and the vision.
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But there's a, these step the half
marathons and the, stepping stones along
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the way that you got to alignment on.
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Speaker 3: I can't express
how valuable that was.
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'cause it was, there was clearly
dissent in the room, right?
283
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And
284
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it was, palpable.
285
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You could feel the tension that had
been created and I could have plowed
286
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through and stuck with the agenda.
287
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Or we could have, but it wasn't the
right thing to do because you knew that
288
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it would suboptimize the final outcome.
289
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So there's a lot with that, right?
290
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As a leader, we've gotta be servant
oriented drop the ego, be receptive.
291
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Sometimes if, and when I meditate
after that, I find that I hear things
292
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differently and I listen differently.
293
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In that moment, I listened and I heard
the tension and I realized that I could
294
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choose to play into that or ignore it.
295
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And ignoring meant that I
wouldn't have full team support
296
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or alliance going forward.
297
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So I chose to go into it, but
that, that was probably the most
298
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productive conversation in the two
days we had together, that hour we
299
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spent on what's going to block us.
300
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What's going to disable our success here?
301
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And as we listed them out,
then the flip was true.
302
00:17:26,816 --> 00:17:29,726
Okay, so if these are the blockers,
what do we need to do to get
303
00:17:29,726 --> 00:17:32,186
through the blockers or to make
sure they don't slow us down?
304
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So that became the enablers.
305
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And, that's been really helpful.
306
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And in that it's important to
my team and I, that we drive
307
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the right type of progress.
308
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I've been updating the team on a
monthly basis on what we've been able
309
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to do with respect to the enablers.
310
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At no point has it gone away.
311
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We keep it live and vibrant so they know
that I'm making sure that I'm keeping my
312
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end of the bargain so that they know that
they've got the bandwidth to do theirs.
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00:17:59,856 --> 00:18:03,726
Speaker: Okay I heard servant leadership
in there, and then the idea that the
314
00:18:03,726 --> 00:18:09,306
enablers, which are, which is in large
part the resolution of some of the tension
315
00:18:09,576 --> 00:18:13,476
and the the trade-offs between the team
that's blocking them from seeing the dream
316
00:18:13,956 --> 00:18:19,566
crucially went to you, and you are staying
in front of the team by taking steps.
317
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And updating them on how
you're working towards that.
318
00:18:23,421 --> 00:18:26,841
So this is a great model for
getting the team together.
319
00:18:26,991 --> 00:18:31,281
But you mentioned one thing which
is just as important for any HR team
320
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to be successful is in how you work
with your external stakeholders.
321
00:18:36,591 --> 00:18:40,491
And I think you said in there we are
also deciding what are the things
322
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that we're saying no to externally.
323
00:18:44,076 --> 00:18:48,606
It's an interesting concept because what
I hear often is our HR teams that are
324
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asked to do more with less often, right?
325
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So I keep saying yes to, to
everything, and there's actually
326
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gonna be less and less time.
327
00:18:56,766 --> 00:18:58,146
And that kind of goes
back to that mindset.
328
00:18:58,146 --> 00:19:00,696
I feel like it's almost
like a vicious cycle, right?
329
00:19:00,696 --> 00:19:05,286
For it's like a recipe for getting
into the administrative and tactical
330
00:19:05,286 --> 00:19:10,896
constantly, but how do you how do
you, the team or in broadly, how do
331
00:19:10,896 --> 00:19:15,096
you think about that resolution where
you're pushing back to the business
332
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and your stakeholders outside of the
function saying, we're prioritizing X
333
00:19:20,256 --> 00:19:23,316
and not, this, or saying no effectively.
334
00:19:28,431 --> 00:19:31,191
Speaker 3: So I forgot that I said
I would have one of these handy,
335
00:19:31,191 --> 00:19:32,661
but I'll get to this in a second.
336
00:19:32,991 --> 00:19:33,021
Okay.
337
00:19:33,051 --> 00:19:33,561
So
338
00:19:35,931 --> 00:19:40,251
we have to be articulate in the value
we're trying to drive for the business.
339
00:19:41,301 --> 00:19:46,011
And it's, funny because shortly
thereafter I was subbing in, so one of
340
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our team went on vacation for two weeks.
341
00:19:47,661 --> 00:19:50,781
So they had an employee come and I
was, and I said I'd help 'em out.
342
00:19:50,781 --> 00:19:53,031
So I was doing a change of address okay.
343
00:19:53,556 --> 00:19:58,716
So that's probably not where the CHRO or
CPO should be spending their time helping
344
00:19:58,716 --> 00:19:59,766
an employee with change of address.
345
00:19:59,766 --> 00:20:01,596
But it was interesting.
346
00:20:01,686 --> 00:20:02,286
It's okay.
347
00:20:02,706 --> 00:20:03,516
And I helped her, right?
348
00:20:04,086 --> 00:20:07,716
But, it's, our systems and tools
aren't obvious enough, so they can't do
349
00:20:07,766 --> 00:20:09,746
self-sufficient support or self-driven.
350
00:20:10,346 --> 00:20:13,196
Their manager wasn't capable or enabled,
so they didn't know how to help.
351
00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:14,156
So the person had come.
352
00:20:14,846 --> 00:20:16,496
So, it played to some of the.
353
00:20:17,021 --> 00:20:19,421
Some of the disablers that we
knew we needed to turn around.
354
00:20:19,481 --> 00:20:22,991
So how are we doing our
our employee handbook?
355
00:20:22,991 --> 00:20:24,521
Are we making it AI friendly?
356
00:20:24,521 --> 00:20:25,331
Can people search it?
357
00:20:25,331 --> 00:20:26,291
Can they do it on mobile?
358
00:20:26,831 --> 00:20:28,661
And that we've got a
large hourly population.
359
00:20:29,711 --> 00:20:30,551
So, it played through.
360
00:20:30,551 --> 00:20:34,211
But one of the things I told my
team is always know the objective
361
00:20:34,211 --> 00:20:37,151
we're trying to drive and adding
the optimal value to the business.
362
00:20:38,051 --> 00:20:40,511
And, if we're getting pulled
into a discussion that is
363
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less than, or other than.
364
00:20:42,461 --> 00:20:44,621
Make sure you know your
priority order right?
365
00:20:44,621 --> 00:20:48,536
So here are the things I'm working
to drive now, jane, Jim, John Doe,
366
00:20:48,536 --> 00:20:51,656
whoever leader we're supporting is
what you're asking me more important
367
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than these three things that I'm
working on as my strategic priorities.
368
00:20:55,676 --> 00:20:58,106
And then I also said, know that
when you get into a fight with
369
00:20:58,106 --> 00:20:59,216
your leaders, I've got your back.
370
00:21:01,016 --> 00:21:05,276
And, I want to, what I want to I'll go
back to a story in a second but I gave
371
00:21:05,276 --> 00:21:07,916
all of my team a get outta jail free card.
372
00:21:07,916 --> 00:21:08,126
Speaker: Nice.
373
00:21:08,136 --> 00:21:08,741
Wedgewood jail.
374
00:21:09,721 --> 00:21:11,911
So you guys have constructed
your own jail in there.
375
00:21:15,901 --> 00:21:16,711
Speaker 3: Did you see the bars?
376
00:21:20,101 --> 00:21:25,601
Proverbially speaking but it was
funny because the company Wedgewood
377
00:21:26,451 --> 00:21:31,641
has long been very customer oriented,
where we would make pharmaceuticals
378
00:21:31,641 --> 00:21:34,221
for vets and for pets or animals.
379
00:21:35,716 --> 00:21:38,326
No matter what the request, whether
it made sense or not, whether it
380
00:21:38,326 --> 00:21:41,986
was one, one consumption or one
dose versus a hundred thousand doses
381
00:21:42,586 --> 00:21:43,786
what, whether it was profitable.
382
00:21:44,326 --> 00:21:48,616
So we had to get more finite around
and we continue to do that around
383
00:21:49,306 --> 00:21:50,656
greater value for the client.
384
00:21:50,656 --> 00:21:53,626
But not every client, not
every single request or need.
385
00:21:54,376 --> 00:21:57,886
So that's analogous to what
the HR team here needed to do.
386
00:21:58,186 --> 00:21:59,446
Not every request is the same.
387
00:21:59,446 --> 00:22:04,846
Some have higher priority, higher value
or, longer lasting and sticking power the
388
00:22:04,846 --> 00:22:08,866
encouragement for the team is to always
be, always shuffling your priority list.
389
00:22:08,896 --> 00:22:12,196
There are things that are emergencies that
just have to get handled but, know that
390
00:22:12,196 --> 00:22:13,486
it's okay to push back on your leaders.
391
00:22:14,371 --> 00:22:20,161
One of the things I said in a prior
role is the leaders on my team had such
392
00:22:20,161 --> 00:22:24,031
trust from those, they supported the HR
team had such trust from the leaders.
393
00:22:24,031 --> 00:22:25,501
They supported that.
394
00:22:25,501 --> 00:22:28,441
The leader would tell me
they could push me harder.
395
00:22:28,591 --> 00:22:30,691
I need them to be more provocative.
396
00:22:31,231 --> 00:22:35,791
So my comment to them was, if I don't
get a call from your client once a
397
00:22:35,791 --> 00:22:40,351
quarter angry at you because you've made
them mad, pissed them off, pushed them
398
00:22:40,351 --> 00:22:41,496
too hard, you're not doing your job.
399
00:22:43,291 --> 00:22:45,091
Now how, is that to set as a bogey?
400
00:22:45,631 --> 00:22:49,231
You should anger your client
once per quarter so that they're
401
00:22:49,231 --> 00:22:52,351
calling me and, know that when
they do, I'll have your back.
402
00:22:53,731 --> 00:22:56,341
So it's a different way of thinking
about provision of support.
403
00:22:56,791 --> 00:23:00,241
So it's not, we take every
order we handle every request.
404
00:23:00,241 --> 00:23:04,321
It is there is a priority and
my client isn't the leader.
405
00:23:04,321 --> 00:23:05,671
My client is the business.
406
00:23:05,731 --> 00:23:08,731
So at times that means I'm
gonna push the leader because.
407
00:23:09,721 --> 00:23:12,841
I see them having greater
value for the business.
408
00:23:13,831 --> 00:23:17,611
So we need to change how we're thinking
about who we support and what we support.
409
00:23:18,331 --> 00:23:23,131
Because if my leader, my
client is the CEO, I'm gonna
410
00:23:23,131 --> 00:23:24,601
try to make the CEO satisfied.
411
00:23:24,601 --> 00:23:29,281
If my clients the business, then there
are times I'm gonna say things to our CEO.
412
00:23:30,016 --> 00:23:32,866
They may not like, but is
in my opinion, what's in the
413
00:23:32,866 --> 00:23:34,636
best interest of the business.
414
00:23:35,266 --> 00:23:38,776
Speaker: And the same applies for
every every HR business partner
415
00:23:38,776 --> 00:23:42,046
all the way down the line to
any HRG or whatever they're on.
416
00:23:42,106 --> 00:23:43,036
Whatever they're working on.
417
00:23:43,396 --> 00:23:44,686
So that's right.
418
00:23:44,686 --> 00:23:47,511
And part of that, I think to enable that.
419
00:23:48,081 --> 00:23:49,491
And it's great that there's so much trust.
420
00:23:49,521 --> 00:23:51,231
'cause if anything,
you'd love that, right?
421
00:23:51,231 --> 00:23:53,361
Versus, versus being a dearth of that.
422
00:23:53,751 --> 00:23:58,041
But part of this I think you're
telling me that you actually lined up
423
00:23:58,041 --> 00:24:00,591
mentors for all of your direct reports.
424
00:24:00,921 --> 00:24:02,931
I imagine that's one of the The
425
00:24:05,041 --> 00:24:09,511
The use case that you just mentioned,
the pushing, back on leadership and
426
00:24:09,511 --> 00:24:13,111
that's a part of the enablement of
that, I imagine, but probably much else.
427
00:24:13,111 --> 00:24:18,241
But what inspired you to to go with
that concept of getting mentorship
428
00:24:18,241 --> 00:24:21,181
for everyone that is a direct
429
00:24:22,171 --> 00:24:27,511
Speaker 3: it, how it's always
valuable to have an open, free,
430
00:24:27,571 --> 00:24:33,546
trusted resource to serve as a sounding
board shadow for you to work through.
431
00:24:34,411 --> 00:24:34,861
Content.
432
00:24:36,241 --> 00:24:41,641
And to do that, so I, it's funny 'cause
across my COEs, so the four leaders,
433
00:24:41,791 --> 00:24:47,881
five that, that I've aligned a mentor
for one's technology, one's healthcare,
434
00:24:48,181 --> 00:24:54,961
one's financial services it, it's been a
one's retail actually That's very funny.
435
00:24:55,081 --> 00:24:57,001
Not a single one is from
the same marketplace.
436
00:24:57,391 --> 00:24:57,676
Speaker: Oh, okay.
437
00:24:59,131 --> 00:25:02,041
Speaker 3: But they're all amazing
individuals who've had a diverse
438
00:25:02,041 --> 00:25:05,161
set of experiences having led
provocatively in challenging
439
00:25:05,161 --> 00:25:07,081
situations to a better future state.
440
00:25:07,891 --> 00:25:13,171
So I handpicked because I knew the
experiences they had and how that was
441
00:25:13,171 --> 00:25:16,951
analogous to where we were, although
just a greater maturation in the
442
00:25:16,951 --> 00:25:18,091
journey than we're at right now.
443
00:25:18,991 --> 00:25:24,536
So I wanted them to be a light in the
storm of, directionally where we can go.
444
00:25:25,885 --> 00:25:28,015
Speaker 4: This has been a
fantastic conversation so far.
445
00:25:28,255 --> 00:25:31,045
If you haven't already done so,
make sure to join our community.
446
00:25:31,285 --> 00:25:33,955
We are building a network of the
most forward-thinking, HR and
447
00:25:33,955 --> 00:25:37,135
people, operational professionals
who are defining the future.
448
00:25:37,615 --> 00:25:40,225
I will personally be sharing
news and ideas around how we
449
00:25:40,225 --> 00:25:42,235
can all tHRive in the age of AI.
450
00:25:42,595 --> 00:25:45,580
You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary
451
00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:46,620
community.
452
00:25:47,245 --> 00:25:48,085
Now back to the show.
453
00:25:49,322 --> 00:25:49,592
Speaker: Got it.
454
00:25:49,592 --> 00:25:52,682
And so these are, and so obviously
outside of the organization, folks in
455
00:25:52,682 --> 00:25:58,562
your network, CHROs aspo as opposed
to, or in the, from the HR function.
456
00:25:58,562 --> 00:26:00,812
So it's like functional mentorship, right?
457
00:26:01,172 --> 00:26:01,502
Speaker 3: That's right.
458
00:26:02,492 --> 00:26:08,402
Speaker: So let's talk a little bit
about here's a fun way to introduce it.
459
00:26:08,432 --> 00:26:15,062
Why while ChatGPT can be your
thought partner for helping set up
460
00:26:16,892 --> 00:26:22,442
an offsite or a strategic dreaming
process it may not be a mentor.
461
00:26:22,862 --> 00:26:31,192
But tell me a little bit about how
AI has played into this whole process
462
00:26:31,192 --> 00:26:32,332
that we've been talking about right.
463
00:26:32,332 --> 00:26:36,022
Around planning for the future for the.
464
00:26:37,372 --> 00:26:40,282
Organization overall, but
certainly for the HR function.
465
00:26:41,422 --> 00:26:41,812
Speaker 3: Yeah,
466
00:26:44,962 --> 00:26:51,502
we talk about, so I talk about trying
to get comfortable and discomfort, so I
467
00:26:51,502 --> 00:26:53,872
need to stretch myself on a daily basis.
468
00:26:53,902 --> 00:26:58,907
And so as I was, so for the company, we
we moved the family down to Philadelphia.
469
00:26:59,992 --> 00:27:00,592
But it was funny.
470
00:27:00,592 --> 00:27:03,052
I was like, I hadn't played with
the voice version of ChatGPT.
471
00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:06,922
So on the way home I'm like
help me think through the move.
472
00:27:07,042 --> 00:27:07,462
Certainly.
473
00:27:07,462 --> 00:27:12,112
How can I do so we started talking about
moving out of the old house into the new
474
00:27:12,112 --> 00:27:13,762
things that needed to be canceled set up.
475
00:27:14,122 --> 00:27:16,012
I was like all verbally.
476
00:27:16,522 --> 00:27:16,762
Speaker: Yeah.
477
00:27:17,882 --> 00:27:21,242
Speaker 3: I'm like, wow, this is
we talked for an hour and a half
478
00:27:22,352 --> 00:27:22,712
Speaker: Yeah.
479
00:27:23,252 --> 00:27:24,962
Speaker 3: And had a really robust plan.
480
00:27:25,502 --> 00:27:26,612
And I shared it with my wife.
481
00:27:26,612 --> 00:27:27,632
She's like, how'd you do this?
482
00:27:27,992 --> 00:27:28,832
When did you do this?
483
00:27:28,832 --> 00:27:29,552
You were driving.
484
00:27:29,642 --> 00:27:29,942
Speaker: Ha.
485
00:27:32,162 --> 00:27:35,882
Speaker 3: So I'm, constantly
trying to seek out new, better,
486
00:27:35,882 --> 00:27:36,782
different ways of leveraging ai.
487
00:27:38,282 --> 00:27:39,782
Fascinatingly, I had it.
488
00:27:41,492 --> 00:27:44,072
The team was working on a
cost of turnover equation.
489
00:27:45,412 --> 00:27:48,442
And it had been refuted about
a year ago because it didn't
490
00:27:48,442 --> 00:27:49,702
seem to have the right details.
491
00:27:50,032 --> 00:27:56,812
So we went back at it what's the, time
to so for departure, what's the cost to.
492
00:27:57,577 --> 00:28:02,917
Repost to interview, to onboard,
to train, et cetera, et cetera.
493
00:28:03,307 --> 00:28:06,337
So we went through all those pieces
of puzzle and we started to get a
494
00:28:06,337 --> 00:28:09,367
little more finite with respect to
interviewing managers and getting a
495
00:28:09,367 --> 00:28:14,077
really reasonably thorough assessment
of time consumption, valuation
496
00:28:14,347 --> 00:28:17,797
manager value per hour, et cetera,
et cetera, and came up with a number.
497
00:28:17,797 --> 00:28:20,647
But out of curiosity, I was
playing with ChatGPT as well.
498
00:28:21,382 --> 00:28:26,722
And I threw in comparable conversation
points, job skills, location, et cetera.
499
00:28:27,412 --> 00:28:33,742
And, ironically the two weeks that my
team had taken and the 40 minutes that
500
00:28:33,742 --> 00:28:39,922
I'd taken on ChatGPT came out on a value
that was over $10,000, only $300 apart.
501
00:28:42,322 --> 00:28:44,212
So it's quite close.
502
00:28:44,212 --> 00:28:45,417
Yeah, it's quite close.
503
00:28:47,887 --> 00:28:53,377
I'm, constantly trying to play around
and ask new, better, different things and
504
00:28:53,377 --> 00:28:57,847
challenge my own assumptions and use it
as a thought partner to get more creative.
505
00:28:58,477 --> 00:28:59,677
What haven't I considered here?
506
00:28:59,677 --> 00:29:00,787
What could I do there?
507
00:29:01,267 --> 00:29:03,427
How could I be a little more
provocative in this space?
508
00:29:05,022 --> 00:29:05,222
It's.
509
00:29:06,127 --> 00:29:11,587
Now, it's not always perfect and you've
always gotta take a lens of scrutiny
510
00:29:11,587 --> 00:29:12,997
towards what it comes back with.
511
00:29:13,777 --> 00:29:16,747
But, in, in a thought partner,
in a creative partner,
512
00:29:16,807 --> 00:29:17,797
it's been quite valuable.
513
00:29:18,787 --> 00:29:22,207
Speaker: So what about the.
514
00:29:22,837 --> 00:29:25,627
HR function more, broadly, would you say?
515
00:29:25,627 --> 00:29:30,427
So are there major applications that
you're seeing that you've already
516
00:29:30,427 --> 00:29:35,617
experimented with for the function
or just ones that you are excited
517
00:29:35,617 --> 00:29:37,297
about the team experimenting around?
518
00:29:39,817 --> 00:29:40,807
Speaker 3: There's some basics, right?
519
00:29:40,807 --> 00:29:44,737
I really wanna take our handbook and get
it on a NotebookLM so that we've got more
520
00:29:44,737 --> 00:29:46,507
user friendly, more mobile accessible.
521
00:29:47,077 --> 00:29:49,117
I think there are
opportunities with recognition.
522
00:29:49,537 --> 00:29:50,562
So what I want.
523
00:29:52,012 --> 00:30:00,202
What I want is an AI interface to my
HRIS that says Jane Doe worked overtime
524
00:30:00,202 --> 00:30:01,912
three times in the last two weeks.
525
00:30:03,142 --> 00:30:06,112
And you may want to, as a manager,
you may wanna say thank you.
526
00:30:07,222 --> 00:30:11,782
Or their spouse's birthday or their
child's birthday has come up from
527
00:30:11,782 --> 00:30:14,302
what we can see in their contact list.
528
00:30:15,832 --> 00:30:19,672
Do a give them, enable the
manager to be the best emotionally
529
00:30:19,672 --> 00:30:20,692
intelligent leader they can be.
530
00:30:22,327 --> 00:30:27,007
To have AI send it and say, Zane, happy
birthday, I'm not there, there's no value.
531
00:30:27,127 --> 00:30:30,577
But if it sends a note to my CEO who
then says, Hey, by the way, happy
532
00:30:30,577 --> 00:30:32,917
birthday, that's different, right?
533
00:30:32,917 --> 00:30:39,547
So how can we leverage HRIS plus
AI to be as emotionally astute
534
00:30:39,877 --> 00:30:41,557
in leading people as we can?
535
00:30:41,587 --> 00:30:45,067
And that's, those are some of the
things I get excited about that I'm
536
00:30:45,067 --> 00:30:48,397
sure it, I'm sure it's being done
and it exists in places we haven't
537
00:30:48,397 --> 00:30:49,867
gotten or matured to that point yet.
538
00:30:51,127 --> 00:30:51,877
Speaker: That's interesting, right?
539
00:30:51,877 --> 00:30:54,757
Because it's the kind of thing
which just falls to the back of the
540
00:30:54,757 --> 00:30:56,947
mind and for most managers, right?
541
00:30:57,127 --> 00:30:59,257
It's a, there's so much
going on in the day to day.
542
00:30:59,287 --> 00:31:05,257
It's these little reminders in the, right,
in the moment of the of these moments
543
00:31:05,257 --> 00:31:07,177
that matter in the employee journey.
544
00:31:08,047 --> 00:31:11,737
The manager the, HR function,
but also managers have such a
545
00:31:11,737 --> 00:31:13,177
big opportunity there, right?
546
00:31:13,177 --> 00:31:15,157
To make things more delightful.
547
00:31:16,027 --> 00:31:16,567
Speaker 3: You think about it.
548
00:31:16,567 --> 00:31:18,127
I don't know if, so this is an Oura Ring.
549
00:31:18,127 --> 00:31:18,817
Have you heard of that?
550
00:31:19,297 --> 00:31:19,747
Speaker: Yes.
551
00:31:22,492 --> 00:31:23,062
Speaker 3: Which is good.
552
00:31:23,242 --> 00:31:24,952
I don't go crazy about it.
553
00:31:25,492 --> 00:31:29,242
It tells me the quality of sleep I'm
getting or not getting more often.
554
00:31:29,842 --> 00:31:32,452
But then also you've been
it's time to move around.
555
00:31:32,752 --> 00:31:35,722
Think about if you just made that
analogous analogy for the manager,
556
00:31:38,062 --> 00:31:41,512
by the way these two people have
carried the overtime for the,
557
00:31:41,512 --> 00:31:45,502
department, or this may have happened,
or they just took a training class.
558
00:31:45,502 --> 00:31:48,082
Go and ask them what they
valued from it and if they could
559
00:31:48,082 --> 00:31:48,952
share that with their team.
560
00:31:49,402 --> 00:31:53,932
Just give me those little nudges that
make me, and help me be a better leader.
561
00:31:54,982 --> 00:31:55,312
Speaker: Love it.
562
00:31:55,402 --> 00:31:57,532
Speaker 3: Because at the end of
the day, it's management capability.
563
00:31:58,492 --> 00:32:01,372
How they invest in their team, how they
build and grow capability with their team.
564
00:32:01,582 --> 00:32:04,102
That's how you beget engagement.
565
00:32:04,102 --> 00:32:05,542
That's how you beget retention.
566
00:32:06,352 --> 00:32:09,382
And all of that over time
drives productivity and value.
567
00:32:10,372 --> 00:32:14,812
Speaker: So if I were to ask you about,
or to think broadly about either the
568
00:32:14,812 --> 00:32:19,312
enablement outcomes that you've come up
with as a team or just the dream state for
569
00:32:19,792 --> 00:32:26,332
three to five years out how much of that
is about is about technology versus not?
570
00:32:27,022 --> 00:32:30,892
And I imagine primarily AI and things
like ideas like this versus really
571
00:32:30,892 --> 00:32:35,002
about just the people and how you
interact with each other, adding
572
00:32:35,002 --> 00:32:38,422
mentorship challenging your leaders.
573
00:32:39,262 --> 00:32:40,612
Speaker 3: That's such a hard question.
574
00:32:41,277 --> 00:32:42,562
So, for my dream
575
00:32:45,412 --> 00:32:53,842
my dream is to have a company where
there is constant provision of care,
576
00:32:53,842 --> 00:32:58,312
concern and feedback so as to hold each
individual at its highest, at our highest
577
00:32:58,312 --> 00:33:03,592
capability level, where we can all shine
as brightly as humanly possible, and how
578
00:33:03,592 --> 00:33:07,192
we find a way to interact and make an
even greater whole from the sum of parts.
579
00:33:08,362 --> 00:33:09,112
I wish I recorded that.
580
00:33:09,142 --> 00:33:11,547
You recorded this so got it.
581
00:33:12,157 --> 00:33:12,832
There we go.
582
00:33:12,952 --> 00:33:13,732
Speaker: Perfectly said
583
00:33:17,812 --> 00:33:22,027
Speaker 3: I want to have AI
be a component piece of how we.
584
00:33:23,137 --> 00:33:24,727
Enable people to shine brightly.
585
00:33:25,417 --> 00:33:30,007
Now we're in a world where we're talking
about Agentic AI and how teams are
586
00:33:30,007 --> 00:33:36,697
gonna be part ai advisors or with humans
and, how we're gonna partner together.
587
00:33:36,997 --> 00:33:40,477
And some of those mental explorations.
588
00:33:40,777 --> 00:33:42,007
It's tough to wrap your head around.
589
00:33:42,307 --> 00:33:42,517
Speaker: Yeah
590
00:33:42,817 --> 00:33:46,597
Speaker 3: Do I have a team of 20, 10 of
whom are AI and 10 of whom are people?
591
00:33:48,637 --> 00:33:49,777
I won't go down that path.
592
00:33:49,987 --> 00:33:53,797
I go back to the dream and the vision
I have of how can we have AI be a
593
00:33:53,797 --> 00:33:57,937
component piece for bringing the
best, the absolute best and most out
594
00:33:57,937 --> 00:33:59,137
of every employee in the company.
595
00:34:00,127 --> 00:34:00,577
Speaker: I love that.
596
00:34:00,577 --> 00:34:03,787
And you'll get, to
where you get to, right?
597
00:34:03,787 --> 00:34:07,837
In terms of whatever that means in terms
of headcount planning or tools or hiring
598
00:34:07,837 --> 00:34:15,547
or shifting shifting things around in
terms of skill sets and titles even.
599
00:34:16,822 --> 00:34:20,632
If you're looking ahead, what
does that future proof HR
600
00:34:20,632 --> 00:34:22,012
department look like for you?
601
00:34:22,862 --> 00:34:25,732
That sees that dream to reality.
602
00:34:26,331 --> 00:34:26,601
Speaker 3: Right?
603
00:34:26,902 --> 00:34:29,692
Boy, it has to be
constantly shifting, right?
604
00:34:29,722 --> 00:34:33,952
We have to be always learning, always
experimenting, always exploring, right?
605
00:34:33,952 --> 00:34:35,422
There's no comfort zone anymore.
606
00:34:35,992 --> 00:34:37,101
It that.
607
00:34:38,766 --> 00:34:39,697
Maybe it used to.
608
00:34:40,327 --> 00:34:40,597
I don't know.
609
00:34:40,837 --> 00:34:44,737
I feel like we've been on a 15, 20 year
journey of just doing more, more better,
610
00:34:44,737 --> 00:34:47,197
different than we did in the past.
611
00:34:47,467 --> 00:34:52,867
But it's certainly not there now
so, I want a dynamic team who
612
00:34:52,867 --> 00:34:57,097
we're always in the question of
how can we add the most value?
613
00:34:57,157 --> 00:35:01,927
And listening, really actively
listening so as to find the opportunity
614
00:35:01,927 --> 00:35:03,157
to engage at a different level.
615
00:35:04,147 --> 00:35:06,397
I the case in point of
the story I told earlier.
616
00:35:06,922 --> 00:35:10,932
I was listening, so I heard that there
was dissent in the team and palpable.
617
00:35:11,652 --> 00:35:13,032
Maybe it wasn't easy here, right?
618
00:35:13,032 --> 00:35:16,062
Maybe it was easy for me to
have heard but, you could have
619
00:35:16,062 --> 00:35:17,292
plowed through it and gone on.
620
00:35:17,712 --> 00:35:24,402
But I need, my HR community to be
listening to emotion, need, space gap,
621
00:35:24,612 --> 00:35:29,552
opportunity for growth and engaging in
a different way than just staying fully
622
00:35:29,552 --> 00:35:31,172
aligned with driving a business objective.
623
00:35:32,072 --> 00:35:34,832
Because that's not always going, what's
going to yield the greatest outcome?
624
00:35:34,832 --> 00:35:39,632
Sometimes it's gonna be like, can I
take five minutes aside and permission
625
00:35:39,632 --> 00:35:40,802
to give feedback in the moment.
626
00:35:41,642 --> 00:35:44,072
And, what I see is what you've
done well and where you could
627
00:35:44,072 --> 00:35:45,482
be even better if this happened.
628
00:35:47,072 --> 00:35:52,352
So it's a, team who are dynamic and
flexible and really conversant and
629
00:35:52,352 --> 00:35:56,732
eloquent with finding gaps and spaces to
provide opportunity for growth in others
630
00:35:56,732 --> 00:35:58,142
and therefore also back to ourselves.
631
00:35:59,642 --> 00:36:00,542
Speaker: I love that vision.
632
00:36:00,572 --> 00:36:04,682
So let's maybe circle back to
the beginning a little bit of
633
00:36:04,682 --> 00:36:07,622
what we talked about, because I
think it's really interesting.
634
00:36:07,622 --> 00:36:13,412
So the concept of vulnerability,
which is I think you've equated it to.
635
00:36:14,552 --> 00:36:17,852
Earning an accelerating
speed of trust, right?
636
00:36:17,857 --> 00:36:17,947
Yes.
637
00:36:18,272 --> 00:36:21,902
Earning trust and accelerating
the speed at which that's earned.
638
00:36:22,592 --> 00:36:24,382
And it's difficult for leaders.
639
00:36:26,602 --> 00:36:31,762
Let's say you're advising me or let's
say your peers, you're talking to your
640
00:36:31,762 --> 00:36:37,202
peers or HR leaders who are interested
in being more vulnerable in some kind
641
00:36:37,202 --> 00:36:41,352
of meaningful way, what advice would
you have for someone to do that?
642
00:36:41,712 --> 00:36:43,902
And I'll just leave this one underline.
643
00:36:43,902 --> 00:36:45,402
'cause the whole point is
to be authentic, right?
644
00:36:45,402 --> 00:36:47,562
I think that's part of what you mentioned.
645
00:36:48,222 --> 00:36:52,092
So how can you show vulnerability
without saying, all right, I'm gonna
646
00:36:52,212 --> 00:36:56,892
plan this thing out and do it in
this way for this intended emotional
647
00:36:57,162 --> 00:36:58,722
effect versus being authentic.
648
00:37:01,032 --> 00:37:02,562
Speaker 3: It's so fun that
you asked that question.
649
00:37:02,562 --> 00:37:05,112
'cause I was just coaching somebody
about a week ago on this exact topic.
650
00:37:06,027 --> 00:37:11,187
So my advice to her was, think
through the last time you cried,
651
00:37:12,177 --> 00:37:14,187
authentically, discernibly cried.
652
00:37:14,937 --> 00:37:18,117
And if you haven't in a couple of
years and you can't think of something,
653
00:37:18,117 --> 00:37:20,307
think about the hardest thing you've
had to go through emotionally.
654
00:37:21,777 --> 00:37:25,617
Now, picture yourself telling
that story to no less than four
655
00:37:25,617 --> 00:37:26,847
or five colleagues together.
656
00:37:28,677 --> 00:37:31,617
Now, if you can do that with ease,
you haven't gone deep enough.
657
00:37:32,457 --> 00:37:33,477
If it makes you.
658
00:37:34,347 --> 00:37:35,307
Petrified fearful.
659
00:37:35,307 --> 00:37:39,717
That may be too far but know that
the right zone is where you're
660
00:37:39,717 --> 00:37:43,317
really uncomfortable doing it, but
you're willing to take the risk
661
00:37:43,317 --> 00:37:47,457
and stretch and then do right?
662
00:37:47,817 --> 00:37:52,677
We've got to, it's just a muscle that
we need to exercise and work, so we've
663
00:37:52,677 --> 00:37:56,607
gotta put ourselves out there and be
willing to look bad, be willing to
664
00:37:56,637 --> 00:38:01,107
be foolish at times, be willing to
show emotion because in doing so, I.
665
00:38:02,232 --> 00:38:03,852
I, I shared with you the
journey I've been on.
666
00:38:03,882 --> 00:38:08,412
The more I share and the more
I break down, the more I show
667
00:38:08,412 --> 00:38:09,612
vulnerability or show emotion.
668
00:38:10,272 --> 00:38:14,802
People come up to me and they're like,
that was so meaningful, and I I've
669
00:38:14,802 --> 00:38:19,572
had this happen and, or now that I've
seen it can be done I wanna do it.
670
00:38:19,602 --> 00:38:20,532
I want some of that.
671
00:38:21,672 --> 00:38:27,042
We all have to we have to create this
space in place to do and then show and
672
00:38:27,042 --> 00:38:31,212
lead by example so that others have
that opportunity to, and boy I, have a
673
00:38:31,212 --> 00:38:35,802
vision where we're all more open, more
vulnerable, more of ourselves in a way
674
00:38:35,802 --> 00:38:40,512
that we are safe to do and we can see,
when I think about being my best self,
675
00:38:40,512 --> 00:38:41,772
I have to bring my whole self to work.
676
00:38:43,047 --> 00:38:48,297
But that, but my whole self is
I'm visionary and strategic, but
677
00:38:48,297 --> 00:38:52,227
I'm emotional and wear my heart
on my sleeve and both are true.
678
00:38:52,287 --> 00:38:53,942
And I need to work at a
place where both can be true.
679
00:38:55,692 --> 00:38:58,302
Speaker: So what about the
pushback on this where it's
680
00:39:00,162 --> 00:39:01,902
it's maybe easy for you to do.
681
00:39:02,532 --> 00:39:06,942
But in my experience and
in many workplaces it's
682
00:39:06,942 --> 00:39:08,862
actually not rewarded, right?
683
00:39:10,002 --> 00:39:14,412
When you're, actually like vulnerable, it
looks you're putting your weaknesses on
684
00:39:14,412 --> 00:39:16,662
display, especially in leadership roles.
685
00:39:16,962 --> 00:39:18,882
And at least that's the,
narrative that goes through
686
00:39:18,882 --> 00:39:20,292
people's mind and is at least.
687
00:39:20,537 --> 00:39:27,617
Partially describes the fear that in, when
you're imagining that very visceral event
688
00:39:27,617 --> 00:39:29,267
that you're imagining sharing, right?
689
00:39:31,007 --> 00:39:37,577
Is there some validity to that,
argument that there's there's a there's
690
00:39:37,577 --> 00:39:40,877
like a downside to being vulnerable
and you have to be careful and you
691
00:39:40,877 --> 00:39:45,047
actually can't bring your whole self
to work because ultimately it's work.
692
00:39:45,047 --> 00:39:47,387
There's a difference
between family and work,
693
00:39:48,942 --> 00:39:49,292
Speaker 3: right?
694
00:39:50,322 --> 00:39:52,062
I go back to the muscle analogy, right?
695
00:39:52,062 --> 00:39:53,742
It's exercise that we need to begin doing.
696
00:39:53,832 --> 00:40:00,462
So if you, don't feel, if you feel like
you work in a fully toxic environment with
697
00:40:00,462 --> 00:40:04,242
no psychological safety, then you're gonna
exercise and make decisions you need to,
698
00:40:04,302 --> 00:40:08,592
but then you probably have a friend group
or a sports league or a community where
699
00:40:08,712 --> 00:40:14,862
you can experiment and you can play I find
vulnerability very similar to risk, right?
700
00:40:14,862 --> 00:40:18,527
Risk to, put yourself out there and to.
701
00:40:19,647 --> 00:40:20,967
Have the opportunity for rejection.
702
00:40:22,137 --> 00:40:25,827
Once you're rejected one time, that hurt,
but then after you're rejected a hundred
703
00:40:25,827 --> 00:40:27,327
times, it just doesn't hurt so bad.
704
00:40:27,632 --> 00:40:27,982
Right.
705
00:40:29,187 --> 00:40:32,787
the, what was the story about the
person who made these ridiculous
706
00:40:32,787 --> 00:40:35,757
asks and the next thing he knew
he was getting the Olympic medals
707
00:40:35,817 --> 00:40:37,917
in Dunkin' Donuts colored donuts,
708
00:40:38,277 --> 00:40:38,527
Speaker: Wait, I...
709
00:40:38,527 --> 00:40:38,842
all of this.
710
00:40:38,842 --> 00:40:39,507
I have to look up this.
711
00:40:39,507 --> 00:40:40,227
I don't know the story.
712
00:40:40,227 --> 00:40:40,887
I'm gonna look it up.
713
00:40:40,887 --> 00:40:41,877
We're gonna add it to the show notes.
714
00:40:41,877 --> 00:40:42,957
I'm sure there's a story here.
715
00:40:43,917 --> 00:40:44,697
There's a great story.
716
00:40:44,697 --> 00:40:49,047
So he basically started asking
for things that were crazy, right?
717
00:40:49,347 --> 00:40:51,897
And, he said he was gonna go
on a mission and just do the
718
00:40:51,897 --> 00:40:53,127
unreasonable and the unthinkable.
719
00:40:53,397 --> 00:40:56,292
So he just asked for things that
he thought nobody would say yes to.
720
00:40:56,292 --> 00:40:58,167
And he said, what was
fascinating to me is that.
721
00:40:59,357 --> 00:41:02,367
And I think he went many
days with no after, no.
722
00:41:02,367 --> 00:41:05,637
But then what was fascinating is people
thought about it a little bit and
723
00:41:05,637 --> 00:41:08,907
what he realized is he needed to put
a little rationale behind it of why it
724
00:41:08,907 --> 00:41:12,747
was important or convey the emotion or
the sentiment behind it or the value.
725
00:41:13,257 --> 00:41:17,337
But then he got really good at
asking, and he said it was awkwardly
726
00:41:17,337 --> 00:41:18,987
frequent where people would say yes.
727
00:41:18,987 --> 00:41:21,657
And an example of where they said
yes is he went to Dunkin' Donuts,
728
00:41:21,712 --> 00:41:24,382
Speaker 3: and he asked if he
could get five donuts shaped in
729
00:41:24,382 --> 00:41:26,332
and put like the Olympic rings.
730
00:41:26,977 --> 00:41:28,867
And the initial answer was no.
731
00:41:28,867 --> 00:41:33,637
And he he didn't, give up at the, no, but
he retorted and he asked another question,
732
00:41:33,967 --> 00:41:35,497
so they were gone for 10 minutes.
733
00:41:35,497 --> 00:41:38,797
He was waiting for a manager to come out
and say, I'm sorry, we can't do that.
734
00:41:38,797 --> 00:41:39,757
But then there you go.
735
00:41:39,757 --> 00:41:44,347
Lo and behold, he had the Olympic rings
and that was an inflection point for him
736
00:41:44,347 --> 00:41:48,187
where he realized that there was something
on how you make the ask and the frequency
737
00:41:48,187 --> 00:41:50,047
of ask and just moving through rejection.
738
00:41:50,947 --> 00:41:51,697
So amazing.
739
00:41:52,657 --> 00:41:55,327
We just went, we went on
a way tangent, sideline.
740
00:41:55,327 --> 00:41:55,837
Speaker: Yeah.
741
00:41:55,837 --> 00:41:55,847
Yeah.
742
00:41:55,847 --> 00:41:55,857
Yeah.
743
00:41:56,512 --> 00:42:01,912
Speaker 3: So that's, in my mind, that is
taking risk, making an ask that you think
744
00:42:01,912 --> 00:42:05,122
is gonna be no, and then working through
the rejection around aligned with risk.
745
00:42:05,482 --> 00:42:06,862
The same is true with vulnerability.
746
00:42:06,862 --> 00:42:10,552
So vulnerability by default and
by definition is a risk, right?
747
00:42:10,552 --> 00:42:10,612
Yeah.
748
00:42:10,612 --> 00:42:13,282
So you're putting yourself out there and
your emotion, your heart out there, you
749
00:42:13,282 --> 00:42:14,512
don't know how it's gonna be received.
750
00:42:14,872 --> 00:42:18,772
So on both, whether it be taking risk
or on vulnerability, I would encourage
751
00:42:18,772 --> 00:42:21,682
anybody and everybody to find an audience
where they think it might be safe.
752
00:42:22,522 --> 00:42:26,332
Try it out, then test yourself a
little more and push a little further.
753
00:42:26,452 --> 00:42:29,392
Go to an area where you think
it may not be quite as safe, and
754
00:42:29,392 --> 00:42:30,502
test it out and see what happens.
755
00:42:30,502 --> 00:42:35,452
And my experimentation has been, the more
I've done it, the more receptively it's
756
00:42:35,452 --> 00:42:37,102
been met and the more value it's created.
757
00:42:39,637 --> 00:42:44,677
I did it with with a set of relative
new hires a couple of years ago, and
758
00:42:44,677 --> 00:42:48,457
I talked about how I'd gotten the
lowest performance appraisal in IBM
759
00:42:48,517 --> 00:42:52,057
at the time, and the challenge and
the emotion that hit me with but,
760
00:42:52,057 --> 00:42:53,827
I was a VP in IBM at that juncture.
761
00:42:53,827 --> 00:42:57,307
So they said, wait, you can get the
lowest appraisal and still have a
762
00:42:57,307 --> 00:42:59,827
career and, move towards vice president.
763
00:42:59,827 --> 00:43:00,397
I said, yes.
764
00:43:01,477 --> 00:43:05,467
The questions that float from that
in the willingness to be vulnerable.
765
00:43:06,547 --> 00:43:07,147
Were.
766
00:43:07,507 --> 00:43:12,307
We're really provocative and it
gave people hope on, so you can have
767
00:43:12,307 --> 00:43:16,357
setbacks, you can have career derailers,
but that doesn't mean it's derailed.
768
00:43:16,447 --> 00:43:18,877
It's just a point in the journey
from which you can recover.
769
00:43:20,347 --> 00:43:21,157
So I would say the same.
770
00:43:21,277 --> 00:43:24,067
So whether it's risk or
vulnerability, test yourself.
771
00:43:24,067 --> 00:43:25,357
Push yourself outta your comfort zone.
772
00:43:25,357 --> 00:43:26,617
Go a little further and deeper.
773
00:43:26,797 --> 00:43:31,627
Take a couple of hit backs or setbacks,
and then take hits or setbacks and then
774
00:43:31,627 --> 00:43:35,257
recover and keep going at it and see
if you find that there's more value.
775
00:43:36,142 --> 00:43:36,862
Than detriment.
776
00:43:36,952 --> 00:43:40,452
And in my experimentation there has
almost consistently been more value.
777
00:43:41,262 --> 00:43:41,622
Speaker: Right.
778
00:43:41,682 --> 00:43:47,382
And similar to the guy I guess tweaking
his methodology with the asks, right?
779
00:43:47,592 --> 00:43:50,292
Where there's, something there,
there's some experimentation
780
00:43:50,292 --> 00:43:51,332
where you almost get better at it.
781
00:43:52,272 --> 00:43:53,112
Like a muscle.
782
00:43:53,562 --> 00:43:56,952
That could probably be whether
it's with asks, there's also maybe
783
00:43:56,952 --> 00:44:01,692
something similar right around like
how, you're being vulnerable or just
784
00:44:01,692 --> 00:44:05,682
doing it more often will make it
more authentic maybe in practice.
785
00:44:05,742 --> 00:44:08,892
So I think that's a wonderful
note to, to end on here, Zane.
786
00:44:08,892 --> 00:44:11,862
So that this conversation
has been very interesting.
787
00:44:12,162 --> 00:44:17,262
At the face of it, we're talking about
what it means to come in as a new HR lead.
788
00:44:17,292 --> 00:44:17,937
As an HR leader.
789
00:44:18,927 --> 00:44:23,307
Into a, in an organization for the first
time in, in 2025, and how you can set
790
00:44:23,307 --> 00:44:25,197
yourself up for success potentially.
791
00:44:26,097 --> 00:44:32,007
But through that context, I think we
talked obviously about vulnerability and
792
00:44:32,277 --> 00:44:34,677
at least for me, you've equated it with.
793
00:44:35,337 --> 00:44:38,457
This concept I haven't really thought
about before, whether it's equating
794
00:44:38,457 --> 00:44:40,707
vulnerability with risk taking behavior.
795
00:44:40,917 --> 00:44:43,707
It's just like almost polar
opposites in terms of my, what I
796
00:44:43,707 --> 00:44:47,397
think about in my brain, but also
vulnerability as a skill, right?
797
00:44:47,397 --> 00:44:52,527
That you can develop with
with practice and also with.
798
00:44:53,277 --> 00:44:56,217
Serious productivity impact, right?
799
00:44:56,307 --> 00:45:02,247
Speed to trust, which then maps to
getting to things getting done faster.
800
00:45:02,307 --> 00:45:06,207
And then we also talked about all
the practicalities, like with an HR
801
00:45:06,207 --> 00:45:12,217
team the, balance that's constantly
there of dreaming big versus, filling
802
00:45:12,217 --> 00:45:16,057
out a change of address request as
the CHRO and everything in between,
803
00:45:16,057 --> 00:45:17,857
and how you can balance those two.
804
00:45:17,857 --> 00:45:21,757
But while you're pushing back internally
as well as externally within the
805
00:45:21,757 --> 00:45:25,657
organization, there's so many nuances
for anyone listening for their own orgs.
806
00:45:25,657 --> 00:45:30,937
But I think it's a fascinating a
point of departure to think about
807
00:45:31,357 --> 00:45:36,217
what people can take away as they're
looking to future proof and build a
808
00:45:36,217 --> 00:45:37,597
dreams for their own organizations.
809
00:45:38,047 --> 00:45:38,557
That was a much
810
00:45:38,557 --> 00:45:40,027
Speaker 3: more eloquent
summary than I could have done.
811
00:45:41,527 --> 00:45:42,037
Thank you.
812
00:45:42,672 --> 00:45:44,562
Speaker: No, it was it, was wonderful.
813
00:45:45,162 --> 00:45:50,622
For everyone who's out there listening
for nuggets of insight on how you can
814
00:45:50,622 --> 00:45:55,092
future proof your, own organizations
and your own HR functions, I think
815
00:45:55,662 --> 00:45:57,042
there are more than a few here.
816
00:45:57,072 --> 00:45:58,032
So thank you for that.
817
00:45:58,032 --> 00:46:01,662
Zane, this has been a wonderful
conversation and thanks once
818
00:46:01,662 --> 00:46:03,612
again and see you on the next one.
819
00:46:04,602 --> 00:46:04,992
Speaker 3: Thank you.
820
00:46:05,142 --> 00:46:05,622
Speaker: Bye now.
821
00:46:07,493 --> 00:46:10,553
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us
on this episode of Future Proof HR.
822
00:46:10,793 --> 00:46:13,403
If you like the discussion, make
sure you leave us a five star
823
00:46:13,403 --> 00:46:16,283
review on the platform you're
listening to or watching us on.
824
00:46:16,703 --> 00:46:19,643
Or share this with a friend or colleague
who may find value in the message.
825
00:46:19,943 --> 00:46:24,893
See you next time as we keep our pulse on
how we can all thrive in the age of AI.
