In this episode, Alex and Camie discuss how vital teacher presence is for fully online courses for student success, instructor’s benefit, and meeting federal guidelines for asynchronous courses. We take a moment at the beginning to remember those lost and those who served in the time of need on September 11th, 2001 as this episode launched on the 22nd anniversary of this tragedy.

We also want to make one clarifying note – around the 2:00 minute mark, Alex and Camie discuss Laura Ingalls Wilders’ book series The Little House on the Prairie. A comment is made regarding the land being “not settled”. This comment is not meant to be taken as insensitive to the realities of that era. We acknowledge that the areas were settled by indigenous peoples, and we were describing the premise of the book, which is a fictionalization of Wilder’s childhood stories.

Want to reach out? Email us a gccreate@uark.edu and we'll be happy to chat!

Extra Resources:

Regular and Substantive Interaction: Background, Concerns, and Guiding Principles

Bailey K. “There’s Nothing Virtual About Online Connections” (2020). Ohio Wesleyan University.

Rivers, J. “Why Strong Student-Teacher Relationships Are Vital” (2023). Cengage.

The Importance of Instructor Presence – UARK Global Campus TIPS

Camie W.

0:02

Camie W.

0:20

Have you ever felt like you've known another person deeply? Even though you never met them in person, how can we understand and enhance the value of teacher to student relationships through fully online courses? Welcome to the pedagogy tool kit in today's episode, Alex and Amy discuss teacher presence in the world of online education and its impact on student engagement and learning.

Alex D.

1:05

So, Camie, you enjoy reading, right?

Camie W.

1:09

I love reading.

Alex D.

1:11

Great. Have you ever read so much literature from an individual author that you feel like after you've read so much, you get to know them personally and like, what would be an example if so?

Camie W.

1:21

Yes. And so, you know, when we were kind of talking about this earlier, then it's funny, but even though I've, you know, fallen in love with authors as an adult, the author that always comes to mind is actually Laura Ingalls Wilder because it was my first favorite author in the series as a child. And so it was, it was really interesting, especially too as you, you know, like, as I've gotten older, I have nieces and nephews and we've read those books together.

And so being able to see even like the word choices and things like that, the longer you read them, the more you kind of feel like you see through the author's perspective.

Alex D.

2:05

Absolutely. Do you want to explain her, her books for those who are listening and maybe aren't familiar with her?

Camie W.

2:10

Yeah, so Laura Ingles Wilder wrote Little House On the Prairie books. Now, I know there's a little controversy surrounding them, but as a child I really did love them. I fell in love. That's actually how I really got into all of the, like fiber craft that I love, like sewing and embroidery and all of those things because as a kid I wanted to do all the things that Laura Ingles and mother was doing. Her books talk about her family's journey west, during a time when the United States was not only not settled, but a lot of the territory was still in dispute. And so, she, she talks about just how they serve, arrived on the Prairie and things like that, but it's a fictional children's book based on her family's experience.

Alex D.

2:57

Yeah. I actually, as a child, I was probably somewhere between seven and nine years old, went with my mother and grandmother and toured her, the estate that is now protected now that she grew up on and lived in the majority of her life because it's in, it's more in Southwest Missouri.

Camie W.

3:20

So that's where her daughter rose grew up. and she and her husband all see, this is how much I know when I was in, I think seventh grade we had to do an author biography. That was one of our over the summer projects that we had to do for English class. and you get bonus points if you did things like dress up like the author and I did and it was so fun.

Alex D.

3:43

Did you sew up the outfit that you...?

Camie W.

3:46

Actually my grandma did. Because she was, ok, I, I love to sew but I will never be as good as my grandma was she like, made my little pageant dresses when I was a toddler. And I mean, like with the poofs and frills and lace and all that. And so this was like very much on, on trend for the styling. I still wish I had the dress. I have no idea what happened to it. But it was really great.

Alex D.

4:13

Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. So, yeah, you've immersed yourself in her, in her literature and her experiences that you feel like, you know her, like, what, what do you think is happening? In that type of experience, like, how can we, maybe we're not psychologists. But if you had to guess, like, what would you say is happening with that type of experience that you feel like, you know, this person so well and so deeply.

Camie W.

4:34

Well, I feel a lot of it is that you know, and I said book earlier, but really, it's a whole series of books and of course, there are, as I mentioned, biographies and autobiographies and things like that out there as well. And so I think that, you know, it's all those different touch points that I got. It wasn't just that I read this book one time and really liked the author. It was that I had these several experiences throughout a long period of time or, you know, comparatively anyway.

You know, it wasn't just one night I read this book or one week I read this book. I, I read these books, you know, over at least several months. And then of course, it led into several years because I, I became a little fanatical about it.

Alex D.

5:22

Became your perseveration. Yes. Which, yeah, I think that's so true. It's that kind of universal because a writer, anytime you're writing something or putting something down in text, you're really exposing a part of your mind. And depending on what you're covering, like your heart into that, for other people to, to consume and understand and enjoy. And so the more that you are exposed to that and the more that a person is exposed to an individual's writing, the more they're going to get to know the, how the mind of that person or the heart of that person operates and how they think and how they interact. And yeah, you may never actually know that person personally, but you get a picture and a window into who they are. And that's really cool. And that's, it's just clear from that, that kind of principle that I think applies to what we want to talk about today is that it's clear you don't have to be face to face with someone in order to really get to know someone well and what they're like.

Camie W.

6:19

And I mean, I do think, you know, things like the autobiographies would share things about her actual life. And then, so, you know, sharing things about the actual life that doesn't mean that we're best friends forever, right? Because it's very one sided at that point. But it does mean that if we met, we could probably carry on a conversation, right? And we'd have some things in common, at least to discuss and maybe could even go a little bit deeper because we took a moment to talk about ourselves, our lives being able to touch base on similar interests because of that knowledge of someone's life.

Alex D.

7:01

Yes, absolutely. And that's where the author example. It's a fun thought experiment to kind of get kick started. But it is inevitably one sided if we play that out because you're only reading what somebody has put on paper and you're not getting the, the feedback back and forth. But I want to take kind of that facet of our experiences that, you know, we don't have to be face to face with someone to know them well and apply it to that online learning space. Because our reality today is we do relate to other individuals in these online and digital spaces in a variety of, of ways. There's social media, there's emails, there's team meetings, there's video calls, we interface with people through text messages and voicemails and discussion forums and Reddit, all these cool spaces online which are two way. And even some cases have way more people involved just thinking more broadly. I think it's, it's clear if we stop and think about it. Like people develop deep relationships online, like people get married from meeting online.

Camie W.

8:02

You know, it always makes me think of the little meme that goes around that talks about, you know, when we were growing up, your parents were like, don't talk to people on the internet, don't give them your information. And now we, you know, not only marry people that we've met on the internet, but, you know, give, you know, order a car to come pick us up at our home address and take us somewhere else.

Alex D.

8:25

Absolutely. Yeah. There's just so many ways. I mean, our life, our life is digital.

Camie W.

8:30

Yeah. And, and I think, especially with this group of students, Gen Z now because they've grown up with this, their entire lives. So you see, like, I guess a lot more how they connect with each other. I know some of my former students because I used to teach this crew. And even I have a couple of siblings that are in this generation and I have one sibling, especially who that is his preferred method of communication. He will rarely answer an actual phone call. You know, it's, and it gives him kind of anxiety to do things like that. But, but forming most of his friendships are online, friendships, they're not in person friendships and, you know, that's very different the way I grew up. But for him, it, you know, that is very meaningful. He's developed an entire life online.

Alex D.

9:28

Absolutely. There, there's an example I read as I was kind of researching in preparation for the the episode and a woman wrote on a blog that she had was they got her and her now husband were engaged and about to get married and they had a wedding registry online and they got a package sent to them and they opened it up and it had a note from it was the handle of the user name of one of her husband's world of warcraft buddies. They had never met in person. But over the years her, her now husband and this guy had just developed such a relationship in that online space that whenever he found out that his world, the warcraft buddy was getting married, he wanted to send them a gift and then eventually they did meet in person and that gentleman ended up dating someone and they got married and the four of them became really close and not all relationships online spur into that face to face. But yeah, there's just so many examples that they can start in that space and then evolve into other avenues, but they can also just be online and be really valuable. There, there are gonna be some downsides and dilemmas if you are only limited into the online space. I mean, there is always the issues of like bullying, social media pressure, comparison, things that we know and get talked about a lot from the news that we have to be aware of when it comes to online relationships. But if we only focus on that, we're really missing the opportunities for genuine relationships to develop and thrive and these things can be born, through online connection interaction. And we aren't necessarily maybe in our world trying to develop those depths of relationships through online higher education courses. But we are wanting to cultivate genuine experiences. Genuine experiences that lead to depth of learning and depth of trust because that's where real learning and real life experience can happen.

Camie W.

11:14

Well, and, and we know from research that outside of your, you know, living environment with your parents or your family and in higher education, you know, the people that are closest to you and around you basically outside of that kind of environment and the support you have in your personal community, right? Your instructor is gonna be one of the biggest impacts on your success as a student. Now, that's not to say that instructors carry that weight alone or that students don't have a responsibility because they definitely do. That's a different conversation. But, instructors carry a lot of weight and impact on students and so building those relationships, especially in online courses when it's really easier to disconnect because you're not having to look someone in the face can be vital for success for students.

Alex D.

12:17

Yeah. Oh, I absolutely agree. And especially in those online spaces when the motivation and the the impetus to to succeed is typically on, it's a, it's a internal locus of control for the student. The more engaged an instructor is you can't ultimately legislate that you can't legislate that in a face to face either. And the student ultimately has to have that motivation internally. But the more present we are as instructors, the more set up our design is to facilitate that kind of opportunity, the more motivating we can be for those students to thrive and succeed in those spaces. And so that's, yeah, we want to see how teacher impact manifests in the online space in real positive ways because you know, if you're an instructor listening or a teacher listening, chances are you were impacted by a teacher directly in a way that made you want to teach? I know that was my experience in high school. I had two amazing high school teachers that really inspired me to go into secondary education when I got into college. That can still happen in the online spaces. I don't know. Do you have any examples of...

Camie W.

13:27

I am Facebook friends with as many of my teachers as I can possibly find because I have had just such a wonderful opportunity to have great teachers. And of course, there are always a few that stand out but every single teacher I've had, I have loved. and I actually wasn't going to be a teacher because, my, my parents are, are teachers and I saw up close and personally, what, what that looked like and education, but I ended up doing that for a while and really loved it. It, you know, just that the relationships that you build, not only with students but their families that just is so impactful, not only in the student's life, but also the teachers for, for various reasons, you know, in higher education, though a normal, like it's not always the instructor who's encouraging you to go into teaching. But a lot of times that is how you find, like, the subject area that you ultimately get your degree in whether or not you end up there. Like, even though I ended up in education, my bachelor's degree is actually in political science. And that is because of Doctor Houston at the University of Arkansas Monticello. Yes, he's not there anymore. He left a long time ago. But when I was there, he was, and he, he was the chair of the Political Science Department and I loved my political science classes and for two years I went undecided on my major because I had no idea what I was gonna do with my life. And then I, I said, you know what, I'm gonna do early childhood education and back then you had to do early childhood and special education. You couldn't just do like one or the other. I got to my first education class and I was just like, oh, my gosh, I cannot sit through this for two more years. I can't sit through this one for one more day. And I went immediately to Doctor Houston and I was just like, please, please, please, can you get me out of this class and put me in a different one and change my major? Like anything else? He's like, what do you want it? Like political science. Let me do political science because I knew I liked the classes and that's, that's what it was all about is I liked these classes and I really connected with the instructors I had.

Alex D.

15:52

Absolutely. And that's an opportunity. It's, it's not just as an instructor, especially in higher ed. If, if you're listening, it's your presence, your engagement could allow a student to see the subject matter, the way you see the subject matter and see that like passion and that like you probably have that for whatever subject you are teaching and you can really cultivate that in a way that helps you know, the person more, but also just opens the door for them to know the thing that you fell in love with. And that's really important. And so as I think, like practical ways, I, I like to look at it from a one example. It's like the compassion and competency scale is kind of how I look at it like you want to have those two components as an online instructor in balance with one another. Compassion as kind of a catch all word for, you know, empathizing with where students are at and their professional development, their educational development, their personal lives, which is gonna mean that you have to get to know them a little bit through the online space and just holding that alongside the need to develop their competencies in their subject matter. And so holding those two in tandem, I think really opens that door for them to learn. Because I, in the way I look at it is if you just have compassion and enjoyment of, of relating with them without cultivating the competency, that's a comforting experience for someone in that online space. But it's ultimately going to fall short of their main goal to achieve a degree. Whereas if you have just the competency piece teaching them the subject matter without the compassion for where they're at, that equips them potentially to know information. But it also robotizes if that's a real word, but it makes, it makes robotic the experience. But together that promotes this exploration.

Camie W.

17:39

You don't actually end up remembering as much when you have that kind of experience and everything you're talking about actually reminds me of schema theory and the fishes, fish story about, you know, the fish and the frog that were living in the little pond and the frog, you know, he was a tadpole at first and then he became a frog and got legs and he could live outside the water and he went on a little journey and came back to tell his little fish friend about all the things he saw and he described a cow and you know, a tree and things like that. Well, the fish was just thinking of the cow as a cow shaped fish, right? Because that's all the fish knew. It couldn't imagine these things. And so a lot of times like getting to know your students and where they are, allows you to explain things in a way that they can understand because you know what they're relating to. And also, you know, like you're able to give more specific feedback because when you develop this relationship with students, then you are able to, you know, you can't always give them those experiences. But you're able to see, you know, that maybe your student is thinking of a cow as just a cow shaped fish. So, so you can, you can kind of see where they're coming from and what, what, what their experiences have led them to perceive what you're saying. Because, you know, the saying perception is reality. And a lot of times when you get to know your students and you develop those relationships, they're going to be more open about what they're actually seeing or not seeing your work, whether they realize they're not seeing it or not. And that gives you the opportunity to step in and say, oh, ok. Well, think about it through this lens because that's how we learn, right? We make connections with what we know already. And so I think having some of these, having some of these talks with students and this, I mean, in online education this looks like and, and you know, your introduction discussion, that's part one though, right? That doesn't stop there. Introducing students to one another and to you are really important but also developing that relationship with them via email, other discussion post in your course. Even in an asynchronous course, you can do a live zoom meeting, you just can't require it, right? And so you want to think through how do we develop these relationships? How do I put all those touch points in? So that over this semester or term however long you have those students, you're touching points with them in several different ways. You're talking not maybe just about the material, but you can maybe relate the material to something that you've been through. Hey, I think of this concept through X because you know, this is where just like I just said, oh, that reminds me of that schema story. because that's what my experience in education has been like, you know, that's what I learned in some of my formal education courses. And so being able to relate your personal experience to some of those formal, you know, topics can help students see it in a new way or bringing in videos and saying, hey, this is the way I see it. But I've also seen this person and this is kind of how they see it introducing them and showing them that learning happens in all different ways.

Alex D.

21:36

Right. I 100% agree and I think that's so important to go beyond just that initial step. Like you mentioned, the the introduction discussion can, can be something that's so over utilized and it just kind of becomes boiler plate templating. But if it's not being applied throughout the rest of the course, it's really missing the point. What point is there to have somebody introduce themselves and share a little bit about themselves if then that's never addressed in their learning. So I think that's an important first step and it, it has to be a active first step. So seeing our online students through the wider lens of their identities, especially in fully online education, you know, you're gonna have some students that are fitting that traditional age range and socioeconomic demographic of college students. But most of the time it's gonna be working parents, spouses, Children who are taking care of their elderly parents, they're working full time jobs, they're working a couple of part time jobs or a couple full time... You know, it's just everybody's in these different experiences. And if you can learn what industries people are in or what interests people have, then that allows your messaging through the course to enhance the mediums by which you are delivering it. And so like you're saying, it's, you may have the, the general structure. I mean, we hope you do, we hope you have the general structure and content of the course already built by the time you're welcoming them in. But how great is it if you know that certain sections of your students really resonate with a particular type of like social media outlet or this particular type of youtube content will really resonate with them. And when you enter a certain week, hey, you can post an announcement, include a video or build that add that into the content and that just enhances that week for that student that much more. You're like, oh, I know they'll get this video because it has this particular type of humor and engagement in this way. Or I can, I can add more into my content that's really going to connect with this particular person's lived experience. We would do that in a face to face kind of on the fly. So how much better is, is it in some ways that you can have some time to sit and marinate on? Oh, what are ways that I could really customize learning in any given semester to the, the folks that I have in my, in my class for this, this particular semester in this particular course?

Camie W.

24:00

Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up because on our campus we have on campus students who take online courses, but the students who are enrolled in online programs, the biggest difference in the demographics between those on campus students and those who are enrolled only in online programs is age. There are much fewer of those 18 to 22 year olds and a lot more 30 to 40 or 30 to 50 year olds, in our online programs, I can say this again in our online programs. and so taking that into account that's a different part of your adulthood. Right.

Alex D.

24:34

100%. Yes. Being in my thirties to forties right now. Yes.

Camie W.

24:53

Yeah. It looks a lot different as it should, in your thirties to, you know, to fifties, even thirties to forties and forties, to fifties than it does in your early twenties, late teens. and so, and, and having both of those in your course at the same time, you, you might, have both of those, you know, demographics in your course at the same time. That's fine. That's what, that's why you get to know your students. So, you know, who's there and, you know, how to, how to really create things that are going to benefit them the most or how to communicate most effectively for them.

Alex D.

25:29

Absolutely. And, you know, if you're an instructor and listening, how much more enjoyable of the class is that gonna be if you recognize, maybe you're in your thirties to fifties. And you realize, oh, I've got a lot of people in their thirties to fifties in this class, there's much more of a peer to peer dynamic where you're almost in, on journey of learning and discovery together and you get to play the subject matter expert. But that's a, that's gonna create if you're able to get to know them more, probably much more of a, of an engaging dynamic for you, of relationship and, and relationship building in a different way than if it was just 18 to 22 year olds. I'm not saying you can't do that. It's just gonna look different, but that also has, has benefits and opportunities that are there to discover great opportunities to, to cultivate that. And that's it again, it happens in the face to face. So often that you can develop genuine friendships and relationships with people. So let's translate that and understand that this is an opportunity to happen here in, in online spaces too.

Camie W.

26:31

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, just creating that teacher student relationship, you know, it looks different for every group of students that you have similar, but there, there are always nuances of difference. So, you know, really taking that into consideration and thinking about how you're developing your relationships with students, especially kind of, you know, we're very close here at the beginning of the semester. Still we haven't even been in classes a whole month yet. And so, you know, making sure that you're taking that time by the time you get to midterms and finals, you want to be able to have those conversations with students that you need to have about their growth. And, and do it in a way that is genuine for students. And in a way that they perceive you as more of a trusted advisor, giving them really great feedback. Right, because tat's, that's when we take feedback seriously,

Alex D.

27:45

When we actually trust the person who's giving it. Right.

Camie W.

27:47

And so just, you know, relationships matter.

Alex D.

27:52

They're the glue that basically holds society together. I'm gonna go meta on us here.

Camie W.

27:59

Yeah, they are, they are society. It's how we make society. But also handy little note here, we've talked about regular and substantive interaction before on our podcast. And all of these little interactions are actually part of regular and substantive interaction and counts. because you're giving your learners feedback right on their work, you're talking to them and individualizing things that happen live action and not just here's your reminder that you've got to turn in this test this week, right? It's hey, I noticed 10 of you were really struggling with this question on the test. Here are some extra resources and ways that you can understand that a little bit better. So for those of you who haven't talked about regular and substantive interaction before regular and substantive interaction is actually tied to a federal guideline. that is tied to title four funding at universities. And this is what separates correspondence education, which does not require instructor feedback from distance education, which does. It's meant two gives online students a similar experience with their instructor as in person students get. that's why it's tied to the title for funding because they want to make sure that our online students are getting that same quality of education and we do know that relationships matter. And make a difference in student success.

Alex D.

29:42

Yes, RSI is what you'll hear it referred to sometimes as in the colloquialism of, of higher ed. And it really was further developed in the post-COVID era after remote teaching happened. And people realized there's some, there's some gaps that, that need to be tightened up here when it comes to distance education and ensuring that students are getting the best experience possible. So it, it can feel kind of robotic even to, to mention that at the end here is we've tried to be a lot more focused on the relational aspects, but it is important and, you know, RSI regular substantive action. But this is what's great about this. You can as if you're making this a focus as you enter into your courses, you can cultivate genuine interactions and satisfy the feds at the same time, win-win.

Camie W.

30:29

Yes. Well, and as instructors, we know that documentation is our best friend when it comes to teaching our courses and making sure that we've got things documented that we're required to do. And so that's why we tack it on at the end. And we just wanted you to know that this is a way that you can document something that you're doing really well, that meets these guidelines

Alex D.

30:53

And how... This is not the best way because it's a shame-based motivation. But how terrible would it be that maybe, you lose some title four funding and it found out because you are not genuinely interacting with your students in your course enough

Camie W.

31:07

It wouldn't be just you, it would be the entire university, like it's not your title for funding.

Alex D.

31:16

And so, and it's never going to come down to one individual's course, but it's going to be a collective. And so it's just ideal for everybody to be thinking about how do we interact well with our students to ensure their success and as much as it is possible for the instructor to motivate them to success. Yeah. At the end of the day, it's going to be on the student to, to focus on it. But there's so much that we can do to have our presence felt and seen and known and I would challenge any listener to go through maybe course, survey data and hear a student say my instructor was too communicative and too present in the course. I did not like that. I don't think that exists. The opposite certainly exists. We've been in this class, and I don't even know if anybody's checking my posts or checking anything that's going on in here for weeks at a time.

Camie W.

32:11

I've never heard a student complain about that for sure.

Camie W.

32:19

We opened the show with a remembrance to September 11th. And we hope that in this episode, we can honor the people and relationships that day by talking about how we can better hours now. Thanks for being with us today on the Pedagogy Toolkit. Join us next time and don't forget to subscribe.