Avoiding people and algorithm pleasing on Instagram with Elsie Owen (aka the people-pleasing therapist)

Welcome to Season 4 of The Business of Psychology! 

This interview with Elsie Owen, @the_peoplepleasing_therapist on Instagram, is one of those episodes that really reminds me why I began this project in the first place. 

Elsie is really inspiring to me; I get asked a lot of questions about Instagram specifically, and about marketing strategy in general, and often I feel like people are heaping tons of pressure on themselves to bend themselves out of shape to copy someone else or do something that they think they should be doing. Elsie's story gives a really refreshing insight into the power of what can happen when you do what feels right at the moment that it feels right for you. 

If you haven't heard of Elsie already, I'd really encourage you, when you finish listening to this episode, to look her up and check out her work, because she's brilliant. But I'd also really love you to listen to her story and think about what you can take from this when it comes to marketing your private practice or starting your social media project. 

Full show notes and a transcript of this episode are available at The Business of Psychology

Links for Elsie:

Instagram: @the_peoplepleasing_therapist

Website: www.elsieowen.com

Rosie’s on Instagram:

@rosiegilderthorp

@thepregnancypsychologist

The highlights

• I welcome Elsie and she tells us how she got started in the world of therapy 01:33
• Elsie tells us how her business started and how it got traction 09:15
• Elsie talks about how she came to her ‘people pleasing therapist’ specialism 15:24
• We discuss how Elsie keeps her instagram account alive 22:14
• Elsie talks about the main uses for her instagram 28:40
• Elsie gives us her tips for getting people to interact on instagram 32:50
• Elsie talks about how to get people from Instagram to buying from us 34:54
• Elsie tells us how we can connect with her 42:07

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Thank you so much for listening to the Business of Psychology podcast. I'd really appreciate it if you could take the time to subscribe, rate and review the show. It helps more mental health professionals just like you to find us, and it also means a lot to me personally when I read the reviews. Thank you in advance and we'll see you next week for another episode of practical strategy and inspiration to move your independent practice forward.

SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Elsie Owen

Welcome to Season 4 of The Business of Psychology. I cannot believe that I get to come back and record another series of this podcast. It is one of my favourite things to do. And this interview that I recorded with Elsie Owen, @the_peoplepleasing_therapist on Instagram is one of those episodes that really reminds me why I began this project in the first place. Elsie is really inspiring to me; I get asked a lot of questions about Instagram specifically, but about marketing strategy in general, and often I feel like people are heaping tons of pressure on themselves to, you know, bend themselves out of shape to copy someone else or do something that they think they should be doing. Elsie's story gives a really refreshing insight into the power of what can happen when you do what feels right at the moment that it feels right for you. So if you haven't heard of Elsie already, I'd really encourage you, when you finish listening to this episode, to look her up, and check out her work, because she's brilliant. But I'd also really love you to listen to her story and think about what you can take from this when it comes to marketing your private practice or starting your social media project. And do let me know what your thoughts are. So come and find me over on Instagram @RosieGilderthorp, and find Elsie over there @the_peoplepleasing_therapist too. And tag us and let us know what you're thinking. So without further ado, here is the wonderful Elsie Owen.

Hello and welcome to The Business of Psychology. Today I'm really excited because we have a podcast interview that we've been trying to make happen for months with Elsie Owen, @the_peoplepleasing_therapist from the Instagram. Really excited to have Elsie here today because I've been following her now for a good couple of years. As I was introduced to Elsie by a mutual friend, also a friend of the podcast, the lovely Helen Perry, who told me that Elsie was doing great things, and I've been following and loving her content ever since. So welcome to the podcast Elsie.

Thank you so much. It's a really nice intro. It's really lovely to be here, because it's like you said we've been trying to do this for ages. Yeah, a long time.

Yeah, absolutely. And I've been determined to get you on because I love your content on Instagram. And I find it to be one of the accounts on there, which really feels... I hate word, but it does, it feels authentic, like you know what you're about, and that's what you put out on Instagram. And I think we need more of that in the world. So I'm really excited to talk to you today a bit about how you developed your Instagram, how you use it, and also how it kind of feeds into your practice as a therapist. But let's start back at the beginning really. Can you tell me a little bit about how you got started in the world of therapy?

Yeah, it's a good question. I, the first interaction I had with the therapy world was in my own therapy as a teenager, I was, still am, very anxious and was given the gift of therapy at that time. I got a lot out of it. I think like a lot of us, we kind of get inspired by our own experience, don't we? So I yeah, I spent time, I've been in and out of therapy really for probably, I don't know myself, 12, 12, 14 years, something like that. And I kind of didn't, I didn't really know what direction I wanted to take my kind of working life in I had no idea as a sort of teenager. I went to university, stayed for a term, came back. I wasn't really aligned with what I was doing, I was kind of going just because I thought I should. And things kind of clicked into place. I don't really know where it came from, but I just decided to do one of those introductions to counselling skills courses. I did that, really enjoyed it. And then just kind of this vision to pursue being a therapist sort of was born and I went off and trained. And yeah, that's kind of how I, how I landed up in the role. It's a very simplistic way of describing it isn't it? It is way more complicated than that.

And how old were you when you made that decision? Because that sounds like a really brave journey to venture on to.

Oh thank you. I was, when I started my training, I was in my early 20s. I can't remember exactly, 22 maybe. Yeah, I was probably about 22.

And how long did it take you to get from that first idea of I think this is what I want to pursue to becoming qualified?

I did it quite quickly. That is a bit that is me though. I'm quite, once I know what I want to do I sort of make it happen, sometimes to my own detriment actually. So the training I did, I was in training for five years in the end. Although that was because I was doing a kind of dual qualification. So I was doing a psychotherapeutic counselling diploma and then I was also doing a postgraduate diploma in psychotherapy, kind of in tandem, sort of next to each other. So I stayed in training for five years, my first qualification came after three years, which is what I set my practice up. And then I continued, and then got to the point of almost finishing the psychotherapy, and just felt like it was no longer aligned for me to be putting myself through assessments and kind of yeah, assessments to prove myself when I kind of, I kind of didn't want to have to be proving myself anymore, and it didn't feel, didn't feel necessary from any perspective to finish that qualification, other than to be able to write it down on a piece of paper. So that was quite a big personal decision, actually, for me, and very out of character for me to, you know, sort of, quote unquote, give up on something, choose to walk away from something. But actually, it was a really good decision because I was going in a really great direction with my business with my practice with the Instagram thing. And it was more of a distraction than anything having to finish that, that qualification. And I felt I'd got what I needed, really, from my training. I didn't feel that I needed another, another title really, so I stepped away. So yeah, in total I was officially in training for five years. But my, my qualification came after three and then I sort of continued about after that.

I always think it's really helpful to share kind of origin stories for therapy, because whatever pathway you're on, I'm a clinical psychologist, and, you know, I know lots of people's stories into clinical psychology are really long and complicated. And I often know a bit less about the pathway into psychotherapy and counselling, but what they all seem to have in common, the more that I speak to people on this podcast, and in my membership is they're all really long, and really complicated. And like you said, I did it really quickly, and it's like three years, that's a long time. Yeah, and I think it does something to us. And it's quite brave and impressive to me actually, that you were able to step out of that paperwork hungry mindset we can get into. I think, I think of it sometimes as a quest for validation. And believe me, I know people that are stacking doctorates and masters on top of each other, I've been accused of it, to try and, you know, just get this feeling of good enough. And to have that kind of security in yourself and go, Oh, actually, I think I am already good enough, I can step away from this.

Yeah it was very, it was very freeing, actually, to just decide that, you know, I was sat there, I'd done all of the assignments, all of the clinical hours. You know, that's what took the five years, was all the clinical hours. I'd done all of it other than the final kind of dissertation. That's all it was needed. And I just didn't want to write anymore.

I get it. Yeah.

I was just done with, like you say, trying to prove myself and look for validation in stuff that actually, in reality didn't really equate to that. What was validating was the client work that I was doing, was the long relationships I built with the clients that I was working with, I do a lot of long term work. The feedback I was getting in supervision, you know, the stuff that was reflecting the actual work that I was doing. And in many ways writing a dissertation sort of felt like... I dunno, I think all of us that have written these things, probably connect to the idea that we're, we're never fabricating anything, but we are, you know, shaping something to fit a set of criteria. And I really didn't feel that there was much benefit left for me personally or professionally in doing that again, other than, like you said, to get this piece of paper to say that oh, now I've got psychotherapy, diploma or certificate, whatever it was, as well as the psychotherapeutic counselling one. So yeah, it was really freeing to step away. And it was not an easy decision. It probably took me about nine months, I think to actually decide that that's what I was going to do. And then it was a really easy decision once I'd reached that place.

Wow. So you mentioned that your business and Instagram were kind of taking off at the same time as you're managing all of this. Can you say a little bit about how the business started and how it got that traction?

Yeah, so I started my practice in June of 2019 having got my diploma certificate in the May I think, so pre pandemic time. I started it in a really standard way I would say, I found a room to rent, put myself on directories, created a website. And somehow it kind of just, it seems like it was very easy and in many ways it was. I think being a young therapist was quite a pull, I thought it was going to be a hindrance, I thought people wouldn't trust me because I'm too young. It actually attracted younger clients. So it built quite quickly in that way. I also was working for a kind of therapy organisation as a clinical associate. So I was one of the therapists within an organisation. And I actually started that just before I qualified, so I offered sort of trainee therapy there, trainee therapy there in the beginning. So that continued, so that kind of that gave me a framework to follow in terms of how I wanted to structure my business and my contracting and policies and things like that. And actually continued that for a couple of years, alongside the private practice stuff. So I actually didn't have any space for social media initially, because it takes a lot of work. And I knew that because I have a bit of a background in marketing. So before the therapy staff, whilst I was trying to work out what I wanted to do, I interned with a couple of companies and worked for a couple of startups, and a lot of that was in marketing and digital marketing. So I kind of knew that if I was going to do social media, I needed to be really intentional and put a lot of effort in to understand how to make it work, because it is so easy to put a lot of effort in, in an unintentional or not intentional way, you know, without intention, and then for it to just feel like you're really not getting anything back. So I kind of had that in my mind. The directory stuff was working. So I didn't really have a need to do social media. The pandemic happened. And I was in a zoom call from one of the therapists, Facebook groups are connecting, you know, just a let's connect call. And someone in there suggested Instagram. They were telling their story of their experience there and said, have you ever thought about creating an account? And I was like, no, but okay. I didn't use Instagram personally, because I don't like it as a personal thing. And I, it kind of grew from there. And I think because of the pandemic, that was in April of 2020, and because I had all this time, and I think I was looking for a distraction, really from everything that was going on in the world, I sort of just immersed myself in training and understanding what I actually needed to do to make it work. And that's when I came across Helen Perry. She was a huge, huge help in that time, and I think that's probably when we connected as well. I think we connected quite early on for me.

Well, Helen knew that you were going to do great things really early on. So I was just having a chat with Helen. She said this is one that you want to follow. Because we're in similar fields, I think she knew I'd like what you were doing. And so yeah, she had me stalkerishly following you quite early.

You never know, you never know who's following you, who's watching, what they're doing, what they're thinking. So yeah, that's where it began. And the, I think the key to my success with it has been being very, very intentional, very clear about what is required to make it work. And I'm sure we can go into a bit more detail about that at some point. But yeah, that that really was, was what was important to me from the start was that I understood the task at hand and I treated it like a skill that I had to develop. Like, I didn't know how to do it well and I needed to learn.

I really liked that message, I think, I don't know whether it's a generational thing or a cultural thing, that there seems to be this belief in our society that you're either good at something or you're not. And it only applies to certain things. But it seems to be, you know, visible things. Like we think you're either a good singer or you're not, you're a good dancer, or you're not. And social media, you're either good at it, or you're not. And that is just so untrue. I think any of us who have invested time and money, usually, in training and coaching in these things, you realise that actually, it's a game and you've got to learn how to play it and you wouldn't expect to wake up and just know how to use a new software package for example, and social media is really the same; we've got to learn how to, how to use it and invest that time rather than just beating ourselves up that we don't spring out of bed one morning and have you know 10,000 followers.

Yeah, exactly. But I think that Instagram in particular is tricky with that and remembering that because it seems to be such a numbers game and you can see, you know people's follower counts, you can see how many views a real has got, you can see like accounts depending on if you have them on or off because you can turn them off these days. So... and at the beginning I definitely fell victim to that. I can remember being in some of Helen's groups and seeing other people who had, you know, a few 1000 followers and I was on sort of 300 or she was at about 5 or 6000 I think when I met her and I'd be sat thinking, but it's easy for you guys, because you've got all these people, and like you're you've already got there. And I definitely think that that first kind of few 100 slash 1000 people that you bring into your community are the hardest to get. And it's the hardest going because it feels very much like kind of walking through treacle. And like, you're not really landing with anyone sort of posting these things into the ether.

And that is a hard thing. Because what do our brains do in the absence of feedback, we just start comparing ourselves to others. And that's when you start kind of scanning and looking at all the other accounts and how everybody else in your kind of specialism or field is doing. Yeah, not the most healthy place. But one thing that is really interesting about your journey, is it seems like and correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it seems like you had the kind of people pleasing therapist specialism from really early on, how did you decide to land on that?

I didn't have it early on. So I think my account was called like Elsie Owen Therapy first, then it was, I think I even changed it's like Elsie Owen Therapist because I thought that sounded better. And then I moved into what was it called? I think it was called Seeds for Self or something like that. And my newsletter is called the seed. Because I was wanting to... basically I was trying to work out what my niche was, and how I think I did identify quite early on from, from the training, I was getting that it was really important to be very specific about who I was talking to. And I do think that is why I've been successful. But I didn't know, I had no idea who those people were. And then at some point, I began to... I did this sort of experiment initially, where I tried to post a real variety of content early on, anything that I could think of, or got inspiration about, to experiment with what would resonate with people, and also to find what I liked talking about. And the boundaries, stuff that I discovered, I think I got inspiration from somewhere else, then realised boundaries work is a big part of the work that I was doing with my clients, the boundaries posts seem to start to resonate just a tiny bit more. And I, anyone who's starting out on Instagram, listening to this, when I say I was getting better feedback on those posts than others, I'm not saying like I was getting hundreds of likes, I'm saying that maybe it got 20 likes, and the other one got 15 or 10. When our accounts are small, we're talking about small metrics, but they still count and they still matter, because they're still still telling us something. So I paid a lot of attention to my insights. And I just started to realise that actually, this was the kind of content that people were interested in. So I then started to create more about boundaries work, then I started to think about the people pleasing thing. And I did an exercise, I can't remember where it came from, where I sort of sat down and thought about two or three clients that I'd really enjoyed working with and who's you know, the work felt kind of good. And I felt comfortable within that work. And I realised that the correlation, or the kind of, the common denominator amongst them all was, was this kind of people pleasing thing. So it kind of evolved from a bit of feedback from Instagram, and then also comparing that to what I was experienced in working with. I also have done a lot of my own work around my own codependency in my own therapy. So it kind of, it kind of came together. And I then thought, oh, do I, do I now call myself this thing. And I still don't like it. I still hate being the people pleasing therapist, because it feels like I'm putting myself out there as some kind of expert, someone who knows it all. And I really, really maintain that I don't, I also have a tendency to discount what I do know. But you know, I don't like this idea that I'm the one of those things, but it really serves a purpose when it comes to people finding me, resonating with my message. And I do think that that was a pivotal time for me in the growth of my account for sure.

I think that that's so important because it is, it's about putting the people who are going to consume your content first. Because it's similar, I picked up the handle a few weeks ago, @thepregnancypsychologist, which I couldn't believe no one else had nicked. I know, I am now The Pregnancy Psychologist, but I had the exact same process. I was like wow, this feels like I'm claiming a whole bunch of expertise that I don't feel entitled to. But at the end of the day, it helps the right people find me who are gonna find my content useful. So it's one of those uncomfortable things that I'm just gonna have to put up with.

Yeah, and it is that it's just tolerating it isn't it and also I think if I know in myself that I don't have to know it all. And I don't know it all and I can be okay with that within me. I'm kind of more okay with the possibility that other people might think that I do. Because you know, as long as I don't take that on as a pressure to know all of it. So I definitely think I've done that before. It's like if I'm the people pleasing therapist I should know about every little aspect of the people pleasing pattern and how to solve it. And I don't, because I'm human, and I've only got as far as I've gotten. And if I can be alright with that in myself, then I that I'm more okay with calling myself that which is a bit slightly contradictory, but.

I like that though. And I think a lot of these things, they are a bit contradictory. And that's something that we have to be okay with as well, that it's not simple and straightforward. And you're basically creating another aspect of your identity, which isn't going to be a simple and straightforward thing. So that's really interesting. Thank you for sharing that because I think a lot of people would look at your account and think, Oh, she always knew that her specialism was people pleasing. But of course, no one wakes up and goes, I know my specialism. So I love that you approached it as an experiment in that way.

Yeah. And I experiment all the time. Like all of this is an experiment for me, and that has really helped me to detach from the outcomes and detach from the perfectionism around it. But anyone who looks at my profile or anyone else's, and thinks that, you know, we always knew exactly what we were doing, scroll right down to the bottom of someone's feed. It's a really funny exercise, it's entertaining, but it's also yeah, find the mess, find the journey. And look at it from the beginning, just look at how something's evolved. Even just people's branding colours, or you know, the types of things that they're posting, sometimes you'll see actually, on my posts that I use, you'll see the different handle, because I write it on the post. So you can see the journey that someone's gone on. And, you know, also look at how many posts they've shared, because often they're in the 1000s. And you've posted 10, and you're expecting yourself to be at the level of clarity that they are.

That's such good advice, especially because that clarity only does come from action. I can't remember, quoting somebody else there and I can't remember who, that's terrible, but I think often we wait for thunderbolt, and it never comes, you just have to keep posting stuff that you're not quite happy with. It's a bit messy around the edges. And then eventually you work out what people want to hear from you.

And what you like creating and what feels easy to create. I think too.

Yes. And that's another good point to pick up on, really. So when you started out, I know you said you had more time on your hands because of lockdown and all the rest of it. But you know, you're you're busy therapist, you're a busy person like the rest of us. So how do you find the time to keep your account alive? Has that been a struggle?

Initially, it was because I really fell into this thing of this trap, I guess, of thinking that in order to be successful, I had to be consistent. There's this word consistency that exists within the Instagram world. And so like you've said, because I had this time on my hands, I kind of managed, managed it, okay. And I was really enjoying the process, because it's really creative for me, it's a creative outlet, and I was kind of enjoying that. So in the beginning, I was posting a lot, but that was sort of okay, because of the context. Then as life started to happen again, and we kind of, you know, things got busy again, and stuff was was going on in my life outside of my work, I had to find a balance, I had to work out, you know, how can I, how can I find a way of sort of doing... what, what can my bare minimum be in order to keep showing up? And a big part of that was letting go of this assumption that if I'm not posting predictably and consistently, you know, five days a week, then I'm gonna fail. That's not true. We can be predictable and consistent in unpredictable and inconsistent ways. You know, I think you said just before we pressed record, that you've noticed that my posting comes and goes, you know, that I'll sometimes be quite active, and then I'll kind of withdraw. And I genuinely have not noticed a negative impact of that on my business, on my follower numbers on the engagement in my on my account, like it just hasn't changed. If I was in a growth period, if I was trying to grow my account, it's reached 20,000 followers now I think it's up. And that's, I don't want, really want it to get much bigger than that. Actually, I don't like the idea of being someone who's got hundreds of 1000s of followers. So I'm not trying to grow it. So my intentions will be informing how much I show up or not. And I think that helps with that pressure to be posting a lot because we can give ourselves permission to step back if our intentions are changing, you know, if I don't have any space for therapy, and my main goal on Instagram is offering therapy spaces and filling my practice, then it, then it actually doesn't make sense that I'm posting a lot because what am I going to do with the interest? Whereas if I've got a space, I can ramp my posting up and hopefully fill that space and that is what I love about it is that it gives us some control over our marketing. Once we've reached this point of a kind of, I guess, a kind of stability, a stable point with it, where we're not trying to grow it. When I was trying to grow it, I did find it hard to find that balance. But yeah, now, now it's kind of... I sort of just post when I get the interest, in myself, like when I feel like it.

So many interesting points to pick up on there. I really like this idea of giving yourself permission to take breaks when you need them. And knowing that it isn't going to break around your ears just because you've done that. Because I do think, and I don't know, maybe this is a bit woo or whatever, but I think when you're grinding out content because you've been told you've got to do five a week or whatever, and you really not feeling like it. Like maybe there's a lot going on in your life, you're really busy, or you're a bit sick or something, those posts will bomb for sure. They're just a waste of everybody's time because I think people can feel enthusiasm in social media.

I agree. There's an energetic something that happens.I'm so much better to post once every two weeks in an authentic way. And you mentioned authenticity, right at the beginning. You know, if I'm, if I'm not posting it from an aligned place, then it just doesn't do very well. All I get from it is to be able to tick the box that says I posted.

Yeah, and why, why are we ticking that box? Who for?

Yeah, exactly. There isn't, you know, really a need. And one of the things that I'm doing a lot at the moment is teaching other therapists about Instagram. And within the course, we talk quite a lot about intention, you know, let's get really clear about why are you actually there, like, what is the purpose of you doing this, so that each of the actions that you take in relation to it have a structure to them, and they have a frame, yeah a framework to sit within, so that it's not this kind of over spilling messy, like, kind of murky thing that we're doing, because I think it can feel like that when there's not much structure in place. But anytime I've tried to follow someone else's suggestion about what I should do on Instagram, it's not worked. Post three times a day, post three times a week, post on your stories on Tuesdays, do this on Saturday. Like, you've got to find a structure that works for you personally, and takes into account everything that you're managing, right, because it's a lot. We are normally very busy.

Indeed. Yeah, I think that that kind of intentional relationship with Instagram is also what can motivate you, isn't it? Because if you know, okay, I'm gonna go into a growth phase of my Instagram, because I've got a new freebie downloadable that I really want to promote, I need to get this in front of new people, then you know why you're showing up. If you are going to show up five times a week, you know why. And you might be excited about that thing. And I think if you're not, if, if you've got a free downloadable to share, but you're not excited about more people getting hold of it, then it's the wrong thing.

Yeah, something's missing isn't, you're not excited.

Something's missing and you need that bit of excitement, maybe a bit of anxiety to give you the energy to get out there and do that posting. Whereas there might be other times where it's like, I'm absolutely packed out to the rafters. Why would you post? Why would you make your life harder? Of course. So if you don't have a specific intention behind it, you're just going to fall off the waggon, as so many people describe it, and then end up beating yourself up about it. So you mentioned that for you, your Instagram is often about filling therapy places. Is that the main use for your Instagram?

No, just and example. Not anymore. Do you know what actually never was the reason that I started. The reason I started was because I wanted to diversify the way I was earning money. I wanted to add a kind of more sustainable structure to my business so that my income and my work was not just focused on one to one. And I wanted to do an experiment to see if I could build a connected audience community who would be interested in hearing from me in other ways, and who could you know, I originally wanted to run a course that's what I wanted to do. So my Instagram has always been about that. It's been about building something that offers me the opportunity to do more than just therapy. And it has actually enabled me now to scale back my one to one work massively. So I do about half of the one to one work that I was doing. And now my week is filled with, with other things. However, when I have got a space for therapy, which recently hasn't been often because I've been scaling back, I can just say, I usually will post on my stories, if I know space is coming up in about a month, over a couple of weeks beforehand I will start talking about it on my stories and usually will fill that space quite easily. Because there's enough people there now who know me, who know that I'm a therapist, and if they, you know, they will have been thinking, I'll get therapy at some point. And then they see me post, they usually get in touch. they've normally been in my community for a year, two years. So it does give me that I don't market anywhere else anymore.

Wow. So it shows how Instagram or any kind of social media can become a real asset for your business. But it's a long term asset. So people often ask me, you know, I really need therapy clients tomorrow, I've, you know, set up, I'm new in private practice, should I go on social media to get therapy clients? And usually, I would say no.

Yeah, me too. It's not the right...

No, it's not where people look for a therapist generally. But because you've been around for ages now, people have got that familiarity with you. So I think that's when it can start working for therapy referrals. But I really like social media, and other platforms too, like I'm getting really into substack at the moment, for places to grow that audience for other types of products that we might have, like courses, group courses, that kind of thing.

Yep, I would agree with you. I am seeing, so because I mentor some therapists, and I run my Instagram course, I kind of am in touch with people who are at the beginning of that journey. And I am noticing more and more that people are searching Instagram for therapy. Particularly if you're location based, or if you're not online, and you're based in say Edinburgh, using hashtags like therapy in Edinburgh, therapist Edinburgh, counselling Edinburgh, can be really, really helpful. I know a couple of people who've built practices from doing that. But as a whole, as a general rule, And I think this helps so much with the overwhelm and the worry about doing it well, as a rule, it's a long game. But what that means is you've got to start.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, and it will be something that you can... because you need space to learn, you need space to find your rhythm with it, it's not something that's going to start working overnight. But it is something that can eventually work very well with quite little input. So now, I don't actually do very much to maintain my Instagram, really, I probably post an average once every two weeks. And I'm probably on my stories a couple of times a week. That's it. That's my marketing covered. And that for me is like fantastic. That's great. And I enjoy it. I like it. And I think if our marketing can be enjoyable, then we're on to something aren't we?

Definitely. And I think what is possibly the difference between it being a slug and it being enjoyable, is when people start talking back to you right? I really noticed that on your account that people are often talking to you, and giving you feedback and saying that things were helpful. And of course, that's so much more fulfilling than like broadcasting it on its own.

Yeah, yeah, it is. And it takes a while to get to a point where people are actually coming back.

Have you got any tips for that?

So I think generally, if we're posting, you know, therapeutic content, let's say psycho educational content or, you know, stuff that's not necessarily the kind of thing that people are going to be quite willing to be talking about generally, then I think it's unlikely that people will be commenting a lot, you know, comparatively to the amount of people that my posts reach actually the level of communication or sorry, engagement, visible engagement is quite low. However, people express their appreciation for things in different ways. One of the biggest metrics that I look at is my saves.

Me too, is the only one that matters.

Yeah. So people are saving my content a lot. And if they don't, if something didn't save very much, that is a good indication to me that it didn't quite hit the mark. It's not quite what people are looking for. Also on my stories, so I will post polls very often, I'll post stickers for people to tap on, I offer people's ways of engaging that require very low levels of sort of self disclosure, low levels of 'Oh, yes, I'm a people pleaser, Hi, I'm just gonna let the whole internet know'. Mostly so that they feel part that there's a relationship going on, but also for me, like, like you said a little bit earlier that, you know, if we, in the absence of feedback, our brains go straight to this place of negativity. I like to be able to see that people are engaging with what I'm doing. And it's just about tweaking the ways that we offer people opportunity to do that. Also, writing the newsletter has been a really nice thing in that way, too. People often reply to emails in a slightly different way, because they're private.

Yes. So we will come on to that, because I was wondering kind of how we take people from Instagram to say buying your online course. I think often, because it's not visible, people think that one comes straight from the other. But actually, we know that there's something juicy that happens in the middle. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah. So I mean, I've played with lots of different kind of what people in marketing would call launch strategies, you know, these plans for how we're going to get people from A to B. And a couple of things I've learned. One is that people need a lot of time to get used to the idea of doing something before they decide to invest in it. So space and time is really important. But the emails thing has been really different, you know, made a difference for me, having people in an email community that know me, that I write to you regularly, I'm not great at keeping up with a regular email newsletter, although that's a new year intention to get a bit more consistent with that, I think it's because I've been trying to work out what I actually want to say there and I'm sort of starting to work that out now. But emails or email marketing is a big part of the way that I would sell something, particularly starting a waitlist, offering a discount to those people who've joined that waitlist. And then yeah, sending intentional, intentionally structured emails about the thing to them over a period of time. The other thing that I do quite a lot recently, have done recently, with selling courses in my groups, is creating a back and forth dialogue with the people that are interested. And this helps so much with the anxiety of not knowing whether someone's actually going to sign up. So I will post on my stories and say, you know, I've got a people pleasing group starting in January, it's this is what it is, if you're interested, you know, pop your email address in this box, and I will send you some more details. They'll put their email address in, and then I usually create, I'll send them a voice note. 'Hi, Sophie. So nice to know that you're interested. Here's a bit more about it. I've just emailed you the details'. Then a couple of days later, I'll follow up and say, you know, 'Did you get the details? Have you got any questions?' And then there becomes this kind of dialogue that goes on between us in private. And I actually prefer that to sending email broadcasts to 1000s of people because I can feel the relationship. And I can feel a connection. And I'm not just like, oh, how many people unsubscribed. So my brain just goes to the unsubscribes always, they're inevitable, they will always happen.

I think most of our brains do. And often, I think often when I talk to psychologists and therapists about this subject, they're really keen for everything to be automated. And I get that because we often start thinking about these projects when we're in a place of burnout, like relational burnout. And we're just like, I can't handle another person at all, can't hold any more space. So you want to almost remove yourself from the process. But in my experience, that just isn't how sales work. And I've just been creating a private podcast, which will have gone out by the time this is released anyway, with some training about the recession and the impact recession is likely to have on private practice. And I think one of the trends which we can see in the literature, because I'm a geek, and I love business literature, is that people's buying decisions take longer, and they need more personal hand holding, in order to feel confident and safe to make those decisions. And whether we're selling, you know, a people pleasing course, or one to one therapy, the vulnerability of it is huge. Or even for your therapist coming on your Instagram course they all feel really vulnerable too, so we're asking people to be really brave when they make that decision. So of course, we've got to actually engage with them. I don't think you can remove yourself from that process. And certainly I've found that when I do that more kind of relational selling, where I'm actually getting to know people, talking to them about what they need, and genuinely being open to like, maybe this course will be the right fit. Maybe it won't, and I'll be signposting you somewhere else. But the more I do that, the more success I always have. So I'm really not surprised that that's what works for you as well.

I think this like passive income thing is not passive, and it's not helpful. Like, it just, just isn't. So anyone listening to this, who's thinking, Oh, I'll create an automated online course where I have no contact with the people, will create this thing, and I can just sell it over and over again. Two things. One is I don't think that's a super realistic model, for various reasons that there's probably not space to go into here. But also, I don't think it's very nice for us as the person hosting, my first course I did like that, it didn't have any live interaction. I hated it. Because I had absolutely no feedback and had no idea who the people were, or how it was resonating with them. That information was completely missing.

And you never get responses to surveys. I made the exact same error. And I was like why aren't you giving me any feedback on my survey monkey? And it's because they don't know you at all.

Why would they? They've got no idea who you are and they don't they don't have a relationship with you enough to know that it would be valuable and appreciated. Yeah, to receive, to receive that feedback, but my brain goes to oh, they're not giving feedback, that's because they hated it.

Yeah, absolutely. We can be our own worst enemy, because we think we're going to make our life easier by automating everything. But actually, it just leaves, you know, chasms of despair. So, so yeah, I think anybody listening to this, who's thinking about embarking on Instagram, there are some really key takeaways that I've taken from what you've said. The first one is that being really intentional. And second one is about seeing it as a relationship, opening up trying to open up dialogue and relationships with people, but not expecting them to be super vulnerable in a public forum. Because again, I work with loads of people who are trauma specialists, or domestic violence specialists, and often some of the stuff that I see on social, I'm like, of course nobody commented on that, doesn't mean they didn't find it super, super helpful. So I like that tip, look for the saves, get people talking to you in a private forum, if you're trying to sell them something.

And also look at how much reach your post has got overall. And remember that there are... people will send each other posts, or they will share them, they'll share them with each other, or they'll share them, yeah they'll share them privately. And we can't see that metric anymore, we used to go see it but I think after GDPR that got taken away. So if your post has reached more people, but hasn't got many comments, remember that posts that are doing well, by the algorithm's judgement will be shared more, they'll reach more people. So that is another one to look at is how far it's gone. Yeah.

Yeah, it's really valuable. So I know I've taken up a lot, a lot of your time and we need to bring this to an end now. But which I feel really sad about, I feel like I have to get you back on, because you've got so much knowledge I just want to mine!

It's been really lovely. I don't feel like you've taken away my time at all.

Oh thanks. But I know that there are going to be people listening to this who wants to connect with you and want to work with you. We've got a hell of a lot of people pleasers in our community. But also lots and lots of therapists who are interested in Instagram. So if they're interested in finding out more about how they can work with you, where's the best place for them to go?

My Instagram. That's where I share everything. But also just drop me a message like anyone who's listened to this and has resonated, whether you're interested in working together or not, like send me a DM I love talking. I love interacting. That's one of the things I love about Instagram is the connections I make with other therapists. It makes me feel so much less lonely in this work. But yeah, I'm usually, the latest whatever's going on will be, will be on my Instagram. There's usually, my link in bio normally has all of the different things that are going on at any one time. And signing up to my newsletter is a nice thing to do too, because then you get updates and things that way as well. But yeah, please reach out and say Hi, because and let me know you've listened how you found this this recording because it's um, yeah, as I said, it's always really nice to connect and chat and know that we're not on our own, because I think as therapists and private practice, however, our working day looks we are often susceptible to isolation and the more connection we can form the better.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So I'll put the link to Elsie's profile in the show notes for this episode, but it's @the_peoplepleasing_therapist, so do go find her over there. And I'd also love to hear what you take away from this interview. So yeah, please do find me on Instagram as well. I'm @rosiegilderthorp, or you can find me @thepregnancypsychologist. Yeah, feeling very grand! Alright, thank you so much Elsie, thank you for your time.

Thank you so much, Rosie.