Pat Miller hosts marketing expert and Loyalty Loop advocate, Robert Hughes, in an episode that redefines success in the photography business. Transitioning from art as a hobby to a professional endeavor requires more than just passion—it's about strategic mastery.

Episode Highlights 🎤💡:

(14:26) - Clear Communication

(16:22) - Education Sales Mindset

(25:09) - Three Components of a Successful Business

Connect with Pat Miller ⬇

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Connect with Robert Hughes ⬇

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I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. You got a hot lead. You're ready to meet a new customer. Are you thinking about the transaction, or are you thinking about the relationship? Today, we're gonna talk about relationship building. In fact, we're gonna talk about loyalty and how to be intentional with building that relationship at every step of the way. Even before they hired you, how are you building that relationship and building the loyalty of your customer? Now if you're thinking, Pat, wait a minute. No. No. No. No. I can't build loyalty until I take the pictures and sell them the stuff. Right? [Buzzer sound] Wrong. Today's guest, Robert Hughes, teaches the Loyalty Loop, and he talks about how we're building loyalty and trust every step of the way. From the very first time they land on your website till they have checked out and celebrated their anniversary and moved on with their life, you can continue the conversation and continue to build loyalty. It's a big picture concept that quite frankly can make you big bucks. So if you're not thinking about this concept, you need to tune in to this episode. We're gonna talk about the Loyalty Loop with Robert Hughes next on The Professional Photographer Podcast. Robert Hughes, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

Hey, Pat. I'm doing great. It's good to be with you and invest this time together.

And I like that. Invest that time because that's what this show is all about, helping our photographers build a better business. And today's conversation is something that's really critical but doesn't get talked about too much. So you teach on the Loyalty Loop, which is first of all, a killer name. Can you explain what that is and how it might apply to running a photography business?

Well, here's the deal, Pat. You know, I'm in the world of the marketing agency. This is what we do. And really marketing, what it really boils down is a matter of building relationship with your ideal client. How do we scale a business or an entrepreneur's voice in such a way that it connects at the heartstrings of their ideal audience and nurtures that relationship? Ultimately, once that client has converted and become a customer for anybody, for any small business, now it's a matter of bringing in, well, how do we keep that relationship loyal? And that's where the Loyalty Loop comes in. It's a matter of keeping that relationship sticky for client lifetime value.

If we were to draw this out on a whiteboard, what is the mission of a photographer? Many would say to make a relationship with their pocketbook. You're saying make a relationship with their emotions and their feelings. It's definitely a different mission. Is that a mindset shift that we should have?

Well, you know, there's a big difference between, you know, anybody who's got an idea to become a photographer professionally. You know, you can be in that one-trepreneur space for a long time. You gotta get somebody to finally pay you to do your artistry and to do your work before you can become an entrepreneur. So I don't disagree that, like, filling the pocketbook, that is a part of this. But if your sole focus is only on selling rather than connecting with your ideal client, I think what you'll find is that you'll hit a lid or a limit of your overall entrepreneurial effectiveness. But if you will shift your focus to really trying to create a heartfelt bond and connection with an audience of ideal clients and nurture those over time, what I think you'll find is that you'll crash through those limits, increase revenue, and ultimately, income can be a byproduct of making real connections with ideal clients. That's really the heart behind our approach, our relationship-driven approach.

Okay. I love it, and I gotta know more. With the name, the Loyalty Loop, it sounds like on the face of it, it's something that would happen when the project is over and a bunch of actions we take after the event has happened. When do we actually begin building loyalty with the client?

The short answer, Pat, is anytime a client or customer takes a risk with you, anytime they opt in or take a risk with you, you know, think about it. Have you ever made a purchase decision in the past and then you bring it home? My wife and I are members at Costco. You know, I love Costco for this. You make a purchase, you come home, and you regret making that purchase. Well, you wanna go back for returns, right? Because you're having that buyer's remorse. The Loyalty Loop is caught right after somebody makes that purchase decision with you, whether that's purchasing your free opt-ins on your website by giving you the first name and email address. That's a risk that they're taking. Whether that's a risk to having a sit down conversation with you and trading their time to have an initial consultation with you, all of those are perceived risks or trade-offs that the ideal prospect is making with you, that that client or customer is making with you, and how they feel after that decision. That's where you start to build loyalty. So it could be from that initial consult. How do you follow-up with the person? Do you create a video summary for them that they can easily engage rather than a text-based email? Or do you summarize the notes of the upcoming event in such a way that it actually makes their world easier? That'd be a great relationship deposit after having that initial consult. And then, of course, certainly after somebody actually purchases a package from you or services from you, how you nurture that relationship in an ongoing way, that certainly builds loyalty as well. You really put some intentional strategies to creating that excellence in client experience at every stage of the game. Think what you'll find is the Loyalty Loop leads to lifelong clients coming back as well as the best form of marketing is what? Word-of-mouth. So the better people feel about the service that you're providing and the service provider, they're gonna refer you to others as well. And, ultimately, you're gonna see that pocketbook continue to grow by doing the right things and building that relationship. Hang on a second because I need to write down relationship, what did you say? Relationship deposit? Is that what you called it? That is, I've never heard that said before, but that's exactly what it is. They're giving up something of value, and they're judging whether or not that was a good decision. That's brilliant.

Well, you know, marketing is a matter of relationship. In fact, that's our company's tagline. At Hughes Integrated, it's about relationship-driven marketing. I mean, the reality is, an entrepreneur, we've been in relationship business our entire lives. Many of us have got a piece of jewelry we wear in a hand, and that represents a relationship. Others who've had coworkers or may have coworkers today probably built relationship. You live in a neighborhood, you got relationship with your neighbors. We're building relationships everywhere. And if we can just for a moment shift the paradigm of marketing, that it's not about Google Ads and click ads, it's not about being the loudest bullhorn on the block, but rather if we will take the mentality of building relationship, which we've done our entire lives, and simply apply it into the marketplace, apply those strategies and tactics into the business setting, we'll find that we'll make an authentic connection and bond with an ideal audience that wants to do business with us. And think about it, the stages of client relationship building, there's that initial awareness stage where they become aware that they have a need and aware that you have a service that they can get that need bet through. And then there's probably a consideration stage of all relationships where they're checking you out, looking at your portfolio, and seeing does this person have what it takes. There's ultimately a decision or commitment stage of relationship where maybe they commit to a 30-minute consult with you at a coffee shop or over the phone or Zoom. And then, finally, after they make these decisions, there's that that choice to do business with you that leads to a Loyalty Loop, which is what we're here to talk about today for ongoing service and referrals.

It sounds like we would map out all of these commitments and choices they're making and make sure that we're balancing their commitment and walk towards us with a reward or payoff at each step. Is that part of the process?

Oh, Pat. Yes. Because if we don't, here's the deal, gang. If we don't have an intentional plan, it'll be as if you walk around with a wedding ring in your hand asking every single prospect to get married. It's like walking to the local shopping mall with a wedding ring and saying, “Hey, hey, would you like to get married? No, not you. Okay. How about you? Would you like to get married? Okay. Not you.” Can you imagine that? It would be lunacy just to be too much too soon. But if you will take the time to build an intentional relationship building strategy, well, now what will happen is you'll actually grow those relationships and the right fitting clients will do business with you. So when relationship is low, that's the awareness stage, what's an appropriate call to action that you could ask somebody to take? Maybe that's a portfolio that's on your website or maybe that's a video reel that they can check out without even having to opt in because relationship is low. As relationship begins to form now, they're in the consideration stage. Are they able to easily understand your service packages and offerings and what it looks like to do business with you? So you need to have an appropriate tactic or strategy there to help educate that audience to build relationship and trust. And then certainly, as relationship is getting to that point of decision, are you clear with what a call to action is? Is your first step for them to have a consult with you? If so, then say it. Nobody wants a button on their website that says get started or learn more. It's like, oh, my goodness gracious. Just tell me what is it that we're gonna do. And then ultimately, you should have some tactics and strategies, which is the purpose of this recording, about how are you gonna keep that client loyal over the long haul. So I bet you, if you build that relationship ladder, what you'll find is you'll actually grow more revenue and fill your pipeline for years to come.

Helping us understand the concept, I appreciate you doing that. Now let's roll up our sleeves and get into you as the eye in the sky watching a photographer, observing their customer interactions, let's talk about best practices or maybe common pitfalls that you identify when it comes to building loyalty. Give us some of the tactics.

Yeah. Fair enough. So, you know, some of the, like, boots on the ground tactics I think that any photographer, any entrepreneur could really start to include is understand your client experience. Like if you grabbed a pen and paper and literally drew out step by step each interaction a client would have with you from the beginning as a prospect to ongoing service. What are the steps, the touch points that you have? And my question for you simply is how can you make a standout, a hospitality deposit at each one of those steps? For instance, there's an author I've read, Seth Godin is a fantastic author. Many of you have probably read his books in the past. He wrote a book years ago called The Purple Cow. Now, in short, picture driving on a long road trip and you see farm after farm, field after field, ranch after ranch filled with brown cows. And then there's that one field where you're driving past, and you see this is a bright purple cow standing in the middle of the grass. I got one question for you. Which cow are you talking about at dinner that night with your friends and family? You bring it up the purple cow because it was a standout experience that you were not expecting. My friends, how can you take that mentality into each step of the client experience in working with you. Low hanging fruit tactic to consider, video-based email. Y'all, as we record this, I'm sure you'll be watching this in 2024, 2025, 2026, and beyond. Video-based email messages are the way to go. It gets opened. You can view analytics from it, and it makes an eye to eye relationship deposit that a text-based email simply cannot do. So when somebody fills out a consult form with you, why not follow that up with a video-based email that says, Mr. and Mrs. Jones, thank you so much for reaching out to schedule some time. In preparation for that upcoming consult, here's how you can prepare, and here's what our agenda will look like. Mr. Jones, I look forward to meeting with you on Tuesday at 4 o'clock. Talk about a relationship, a concierge deposit. Using the person's name, looking straight into the camera, and sending a 22-second message can make an enormous relationship deposit that makes you stand out certainly from competition. So that's just one tactic, one example, but the mentality team, the principle I wanna encourage you with is to find ways to make a unique relationship deposit that nobody else is doing that help you become memorable at every step. That is how you build enormous client loyalty.

Think about all the data that someone gets from a 22-second video as well. How you're dressed, how your studio looks, the energy, the belief, the desire, the hustle factor, the trim level, the eye contact, I think, to your point, a short video like that will tell someone everything they need to know without you saying a word. It doesn't even matter necessarily what you say. There's so much communicated in video to someone. I think that would definitely accelerate the trust, and it sounds like that's something you believe as well.

Well, here's the deal, team. People don't do business with the best photographers. I'm sorry to tell you all that. They don't. They do business with the photographers that they know, like, and trust. And so if that becomes the objective, understand when you are inside your own bottle of product of what you do, it is so difficult to read the label from inside of the bottle. Objectively, you've got to know that people are trying to find people that they like, that they trust, that they feel confident making a fairly large investment, hopefully an increasingly large investment in your services. And so how will you build relationship? If we had a 100% of communication, what percent, even in this conversation, gang, are you picking up from non-verbals from me or from Pat? Some studies would say 90% of communication happens from voice tone and intonation. And so if that's true, how in the world could a 2-dimensional email really carry that with it? Emojis? I mean, maybe. There's a time and a place for 2-dimensional communication. But in today's tech-rich culture that we live in, why not serve well by creating clear communication through video-based email? Again, that's just a single tactic, but it is a powerful tactic that can make you stand out and build more relationships and loyalty.

That's really good, and I wanna mine for more. We're gonna talk about leveraging the Loyalty Loop in a minute after we've done great customer service, but I'm really intrigued by these purple cows inside the customer service process. So you identified one of them. Hey, let's shoot a video and give them all of this additional information to build our know, like, and trust. Can you think of another time in the customer service process that everyone does it this way, but maybe you should do it that way and you would see a bigger deposit in the relationship?

Yeah. That's great, Pat. That's great. So let's talk about the opposite for a minute. What deteriorates relationship? And I'm asking, Pat. I want your response to this. What steals from, what lowers the relationship with a person from your perspective?

From my perspective, someone that's rushing to the sale, treating me like a number, giving me what they give everyone else, trying to upsell me when I'm not sold yet?

Yeah.

Those are the things that come to mind.

Yeah. Pushy. Pushy. Like, quite frankly, that brings to mind kind of a thought. Think of 2 personas here. If I got a door-to-door salesperson or a schoolteacher. Now, Pat, in real time, I'm asking, knowing nothing else other than those 2 personas, who do you trust?

Oh, absolutely. The heart of a teacher all day.

So the schoolteacher, and why don't we trust the salesperson? Because inherently, team, we know if you got a door-to-door salesperson that's coming up to your front door with a clipboard and a pen, you're probably going to deadbolt the door, flip the blinds closed. Inherently, we know the salesperson wants something from you, but a schoolteacher, you see, a schoolteacher wants something for you. And so, if you want to build client loyalty, if you want to foster relationship, take on the mindset of a school teacher in your sales process. How can you educate? Again, when somebody books that initial consult with you, do you have a preparation email that educates them of what that consult will look like? Think about the next step of your client journey. As that additional photo shoot is nearing, do you have a 7 and 3 days prior reminder email that goes out that has a video-based message that you prerecorded about how to best prepare? After the photo shoot is concluded, what's the first thing that they wanna see? They probably wanna view previews of their photos, especially if it's a precious moment. So do you anticipate their expectations? And do you have a clearly defined plan to help answer and at least address? It's not fair to expect you'll have photos ready in 32 minutes after a major photo shoot. I understand that. Though they'll want that. And so one tactic I would encourage is that you anticipate some of those expectations. And maybe eve, yeah, as you're listening to this, pause the video right now, brainstorm a list of a dozen expectations you've heard your clients ask for that have caused those tensuous moments of misalignment in the past. In brainstorm, you got this list of 12 expectations. What are 12 strategies or tactics or brand promises that you can make to help mitigate some of those objections or expectations? So you might say, “Hey, we have a 48-hour, you know, editing process that we take over. You won't hear from us.“ Tell the client, You won't hear from us for 7 days as we're editing. That's by design. And when we review the first edits and shots, we wanna do that live on a Zoom call or live with you in person. Anticipate. Be the guide to the client at every single step. That's how you build loyalty. That's how you build trust. That's how you build relationship. So again, just a couple of thoughts there. Take on the mindset of that school teacher throughout. And then also the other tactic is anticipate what are the points of tension that may be coming. And before they have a chance to fly, make a brand promise that helps mitigate some of that risk for them.

These are some great actionable steps, and we get to learn more from you at Imaging USA. We'll talk about that in a minute. But let's get into the Loyalty Loop now. We've done the customer service. We had a great experience. How are we leveraging the Loyalty Loop to grow our business? What are some of the key steps?

Yeah. So okay. We talked about Loyalty Loop in terms of ongoing relationship to grow the business. Maybe consider, you know, again, all the things we've talked about in the client service, maybe there's a 3- and 6-month checkup that you've got with your clients too afterwards. That's another strategy to consider. Not to sell them but to celebrate them. You know, some of you have been invited into some of your clients and customers' most cherished moments to help capture those moments and preserve them for years. So you have a key insight to when those anniversaries are as well. Are you already sending anniversary cards? That's a Loyalty Loop tactic. Are you staying top of mind to clients by checking in and offering additional insight? Some of you have learned some of your clients' preferences and hobbies and so on. What's stopping you from picking up the phone? Yeah, I actually said cell phone. Pick up the phone and dialing with a number. What are the chances they're gonna answer? It's pretty low, right? As a 1 year follow-up, but maybe you could leave a very generous and just heartfelt voicemail. Hey, I know the big day, the anniversary is coming up. Mr. Jones, Mrs. Jones, I just wanna let you know I'm thinking about you, and I just wanna wish you a happy anniversary. Now you could send a card, but a voice in tone that you can kinda tell from the relationship, it's gonna make a pretty big impact in deposit. Again, purple cow. It's gonna help you stand out. So I think that's the name of the game is to stay favorable in the relationship, kind of the inner circle with your clients, and never let go of that. You don't do that though through selling more. The way you do that is through building relationship, and the sales will follow.

If someone heard this topic, Loyalty Loop, and we asked them, what are some of the things that come to mind? Testimonials would be something I think that would come to the surface. Oh, I wanna do a good job of asking for testimonials. How do you recommend people ask for testimonials to make sure that they're impactful?

Don't do it wrong. Let me contrast this for you. There's 2 types of testimonials. One that's flattery, and the other that'll generate revenue for your business. And I want to contrast both of those here. So flattery testimonial. “Pat was such a nice photographer. He was so kind. He was so great. You got to work with Pat. Pat would be awesome.” It's very nice, but if you don't guide your clients as they're giving testimonials, that's probably gonna be the thing that you land with. It's just something that's really a couple of kind, very generic remarks. When you're asking for testimonials, if you want them to generate revenue for your business, you've got to ask, help me understand what were some of the problems or questions on your mind as you reached out to Pat? Then you might get a response like, Well, we had our family coming in from all over the country, and we knew we had a few precious moments to capture that and we wanted it to be done right. Pat came in with his equipment and was totally professional, helped us capture the perfect moments, and then we will proudly present those on our walls, in our house for decades to come. Now that is a revenue-generating testimonial, isn't it my friends? So the 3 things I would encourage as you're kind of mining that information from your client, be thinking about this formulaically. What problems were on your client's mind before they decided to reach out to you? Pro tip: the problem isn't that they needed a photographer. You gotta ask yourself, what did that make possible? Like what wouldn't have happened had they not found a photographer? So the problem can't be that they need what you have. The problem is what they would say in their own words, i.e., problem is my family from all over the country. Generations were flying in for this reunion, and we had one day to capture it. Problem. Then the second component is, well, how did you see Pat helping? Or how did you see this photography business helping? You're looking for the solution. Problem now solution. And here, try to get, you know, just a couple of words about the process that your photographer took. And then point 3, again, formulaically, 3 components, problem, solution. The third one is talk about life after success. What does this make possible? Now that you've captured that perfect moment, what will you do with it? Oh, we're gonna proudly display it on our walls for decades. So that my friends, problem, solution, life after, that's the formula of a compelling testimonial that will help you generate revenue and here's why. Because when folks read or listen to those testimonials, well, first of all, why are they doing that? They're trying to mitigate the risk and build relationship with you. And so if you put a testimonial like that in their path, chances are some of them will see their problems in the story your successful clients are telling and realize that you can be the photographer to help them solve that same riddle as well. So again, flattery is good, if you have no plan, testimonials will have gravity that pulls them into flattery. Those are nice. But if you want testimonials to generate revenue for your photography business, think problem, solution, life after. There you go.

That's great. Absolute gold. It seems like your biggest mission, or maybe the biggest challenge for you to teach this concept is to help someone change their mentality from make the month to build a business, that they have to think longer term, longer relationships, more loyalty at every turn. How do you take someone's awareness from short-term gain to long-term relationships so they're thinking about it the right way?

Well, here's what comes to mind as you ask this, Pat. I wanna make it safe for anybody listening to this episode. K? If you feel like project to project, like a hobbyist of, like, I do a few gigs and this is fun, little supplemental income, that is very okay. Like, it is wise for you to stay in that lane, and I encourage you to grow in your mastery because it is art that deserve to be seen when you decide you want it to be seen. So not everybody listening to this is gonna be hard charging. My guess is to try to grow and scale a business. And that's okay. I celebrate the unique giftedness and ability that each of you have. Yet there are some on this call that want to make this their profession. They wanna take this art that they feel in their bones and in their DNA, and they wanna see it deployed into the marketplace in a way that scales and grows beyond a lifestyle to an actual business. And so in that case, you gotta take professional grade approach to all aspects of it. See, a lot of folks have a wonderful technician ability, but there's really three components that you need for a successful business. You can be a great technician. You need to be a good entrepreneur as well, which means you can convert things into sales. And then you also need to be a good manager of those projects. And so, if you can master all three of those, a skillful technician, wonderful entrepreneur driving opportunities into the business, and then also managing it well, that's how you'll grow and scale the business. And at that place, that's when you need a clear message that identifies with your target audience that they see themselves in, and you need an intentional system that builds relationship with that audience to drive them to do business. Because if you're only dependent on your ability to network and be out there, you're gonna reach your limits. You need a systematic approach to it. And I'm proud to say that we're gonna be teaching exactly how to do that at this upcoming conference. It's gonna be a blast.

Yeah. That is gonna be great. And if someone's watching this, they're thinking, yeah, this Robert guy is pretty smart. And I think this would work for me, but I wanna hear a case study. I wanna hear an example of someone that you worked with at Hughes Integrated. You really help them understand the Loyalty Loop. They went all in on the concept and hear some of the results that they achieved because I can hear how this might work. I wanna hear how it actually worked for one of your clients.

Yeah. We had a professional services client that reached out to us, kind of in a professional construction services arena. They reached out to us after frustratingly trying to do their own marketing on their own, kind of a solopreneur who had a couple of part-time employees, so like a really small business. We understood who their audience was. We walked through our workshopping process, deployed a clear message and strategy. And before we had begun with him, he'd have about 5 what he would call ideal clients annually that he was able to serve. Primarily, he'd get a lot of non-ideal conversations that just didn't net into, you know, really the size project he was looking for. After year 1, we moved on his own from 5 to 40 in year 1 of actually working together. So that's an 800% increase of actual quality lead generation. Then year 2 we were over a 100, which is now if you're doing the math, a 2,000 percent increase. And now, having just completed year 3, I know it was over 200 qualified leads that were generated from this. Mind you, these are inbound leads. Very different than going out and trying to network with people and introduce yourself at, you know, leads groups and interacting face to face with handshakes and hugs. I don't disagree. That's still appropriate. These were inbound leads that an intentional marketing, digital marketing strategy, was able to capture the attention of and draw folks in. That's a pretty powerful opportunity. And if you think about it, kind of the reason that inbound and outbound, you know, for a few quick seconds, think about marketing, think about business development as the propeller on your airplane of your business. At some point, when you want to grow from a front propeller to jet engines on either side, that's really the scale that we're talking about here. So you and your own team can probably get your business off the ground and get a couple of good clients. But at some point, you'll need to separate the outbound activity, which is your hand-to-hand combat out there in the field meeting people. And if you can couple that together with the effective inbound strategy, you'll have leads coming in that you'll be meeting as they come in and also have those effective, you know, that you started your business with likely. That's how you grow and scale to have a reliable system that's generating inbound interest for what you do. So I would say that 2,000 percent after year 2 is a pretty astounding effect, and I think it's really helpful, as you take these tools and principles and apply them, which, again, I'm so excited to teach in detail in our upcoming workshop.

Yeah. Let's talk about that. Imaging USA will be here before we know it. Tell us about the talk and what we can expect from the session.

Yeah. It's gonna be a lot of fun. If you're not registered yet, first of all, register now for this event. You will not regret it. But, you know, there's a huge problem that we have in the marketplace today. And the problem is a lot of really talented organizations, businesses, even entrepreneurs are wasting an enormous amount of money on ineffective marketing. You know, some people, they start their business, they've got an idea for their website, and so they start talking about what they do on a quick landing page. And then they say, well, you know, I should probably also have social media because I see people on Instagram and different things, and so they start talking differently about themselves over there. And then they look over and they see their competition doing an email nurture campaign, and they should probably be in that too. And before you know, they've got 15 different messages working 15 different ways, and they're confusing their audience. And you know, Pat, if we were out on that cattle ranch we talked about earlier and you grabbed a branding iron on the back of a cow, you know who owns it. But if you grab a second on top of the first, a third on top of the second, a fourth on top of the third, pretty soon you just have confusion, probably a ticked off cow. Yeah. That's the approach many small business owners take when it comes to marketing. So my friends, instead if you can take the time, the process, and create a clear branding iron that's centered around your ideal audience, then you can take that clarity to a website, to social media, to content strategies and so on. That creates one clear and cohesive flywheel in message that can work 24 hours a day, 365, to drive ideal qualified leads to your virtual front door. And that, my friends, is the process that we'll be teaching at Imaging USA this year. And once we've built that, we're gonna go through a relationship building system that you can plug that message into to drive and build relationship with your ideal audience. You're gonna walk out with a clear message and plan to grow your business in 2025 and beyond. It's gonna be awesome.

Can't wait to see you at Imaging USA and Robert Hughes. I thoroughly enjoyed today's conversation on The Professional Photographer Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks so much, Pat. Honored to be here.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. We are already at work for next week's episode, but we can guarantee it's gonna be better if we hear from you. How are we doing? So you know the podcaster stuff. Right? Subscribe and like and share with your friends and make a t shirt and get a tattoo. Of course, we want you to do all those things, but we also want you to comment on the episode. Can you let us know what Robert said that made you go, oh, I never thought of it that way. That will help us make better content in the future. And you heard us talking about Imaging USA, that is a Professional Photographers of America event. And if you're not coming to that or you're not a member yet, telling you, you're missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. I'm Pat Miller, Founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thank you for joining us on this journey. We appreciate your support, and we'll be back soon with more tools to help you build your professional photographer business with The Professional Photographer Podcast. See you next time.