Our brains process trauma in a way that impacts not only our mental and physical health, but it can even cause our cells to mutate, impacting generations to come. To help you understand the impact trauma has and what we can do to repair the damage, Kirk and Tiffani welcome special guest Donna Riniger, LMHC, MCAP, an expert in trauma-informed therapy and the Director of Specialty Services with Peace River Center. Tune into the latest episode of Finding Your Balance: A Mental Health Podcast to learn how we can break generational trauma and build a healthier future for ourselves and generations to come.

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00:00 Tiffani

Welcome to Finding Your Balance, a mental health podcast. My name is Tiffani Fritzsche. I'm a

00:04 Tiffani

licensed mental health counselor. I'm joined with my friend, Kirk Fasshauer, a licensed clinical

00:08 Tiffani

social worker. Hello. If you are joining us for the first time, welcome. If you're coming back

00:12 Tiffani

again, thanks so much. We're happy to have you. Today, we have a very special guest, our dear

00:17 Tiffani

friend, Donna Rininger. Donna is a licensed mental health counselor. In addition, she is an MCAP and

00:23 Tiffani

serves as the director of specialty services at Peace River Center. Donna, we are so happy you're

00:27 Donna

here today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. if anybody knows about Donna, they know that you

00:33 Tiffani

are one of the experts in our field for trauma. And so I know I always go to you when I have any

00:38 Tiffani

questions about trauma. And one of my favorite things is the way that you you really explain well

00:44 Tiffani

how trauma so impacts our mental health, but also how

00:50 Tiffani

it just is intertwined in sometimes our development. And so I would love to just jump right in.

00:55 Tiffani

Tell us a little bit about what led you to be interested in learning more about trauma. Also, what

00:59 Tiffani

is an MCAP? A master certified addictions professional. So it's a substance use equivalent to a

01:08 Donna

licensed mental health counselor. Yep. So when you think about trauma,

01:13 Tiffani

what got you started in the field? Oh, gosh. I come from a background that had a lot of trauma in

01:21 Donna

my life. So, of course, I was always interested in getting better self-help.

01:27 Donna

What can I do?

01:30 Donna

And wanting to just help others who've gone through similar experiences. And so that's really what

01:37 Donna

led me to want to get into that field. I feel like so many times whenever we talk to counselors or

01:43 Tiffani

people that find themselves in the social work field, that's the heart of it. Finding things that

01:49 Tiffani

you're passionate about and wanting to help other people, that's what led me to the field. And I

01:54 Tiffani

know, Kirk, you shared before as well. Learn a lot about yourself and how that history has impacted

02:00 Kirk

us and where is this coming from? Oh, this kind of makes sense. Yeah. Nice. One of the things I

02:06 Tiffani

remember, and Donna, I know you've done. many presentations throughout our community, but also past

02:12 Tiffani

the Polk County area. You shared a story one time that just really struck me.

02:17 Tiffani

If you'll permit me, I'd love for you to maybe share a little bit. Last year or the year before you

02:23 Tiffani

did a presentation, you talked about trauma and you talked about the impact of how it can go back

02:28 Tiffani

even multiple generations. And that just struck a chord because so much of my life,

02:34 Tiffani

I feel like, what can I do to set my children up to maybe have it easier or maybe to be more

02:41 Tiffani

healthy than, you know, what I had? Because we always want, you know. I want my ceiling to be my

02:47 Tiffani

children's threshold. I want to push them up more and more. And it so impacted me what you said.

02:53 Tiffani

And so would you mind, for the good of our listeners, to share a little bit about that story?

02:57 Donna

Right. What I think you're referring to is…

03:02 Donna

workshop I did on what we call epigenetics is how trauma can be passed down from one generation to

03:11 Donna

the next. And it's a fairly new science that's popped up in the last couple of decades. Well,

03:17 Donna

03:22 Donna

no one paid any attention to him at the time. He was way before his time. But the last couple of

03:28 Donna

decades, it's really been up to the forefront of learning more and more about it.

03:35 Donna

And what epigenetics is, is there's something in the environment that happens,

03:41 Donna

right, that affects us internally and how we feel and how we react, right,

03:47 Donna

that actually changes mutations are being made to our DNA that can be passed on from one

03:55 Donna

generation to the next, up to three generations. So we're carrying the stress not only of what we

04:03 Donna

experience in our own lives, but as... far back as three generations.

04:09 Donna

And so what happens when a person experiences something that's very distressful or traumatic,

04:15 Donna

you know, we're taking in everything around us, everything that's happened around us,

04:21 Donna

and all our senses are magnified. You've probably heard someone describe that's been in a terrible

04:27 Donna

accident, maybe the sound of the wheels screeching or with someone who's been sexually assaulted,

04:35 Donna

the smell of the... that the person was wearing is just magnified. And that's what sticks in their

04:41 Donna

brain because those senses are magnified. And when that happens, the brain is letting off the

04:48 Donna

stress hormone, the cortisol. And when that becomes overactive,

04:54 Donna

the brain a lot of times does not, after the trauma is over and everything calms down.

05:01 Donna

it doesn't go back to that restorative state. The brain continues to let off more and more stress

05:08 Donna

hormones. And the high level of those stress hormones in the body is what creates a gene mutation

05:17 Donna

over time. So you're talking that that hormone continues even after the trauma has subsided.

05:23 Donna

Right. That happens in about 20% of the cases. And, of course, when that happens, that's when

05:29 Donna

people get diagnosed. such as PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.

05:34 Donna

And it's because of those high levels of cortisol in the body. It's just like with diabetes or a

05:42 Donna

thyroid disease, when you have too high of a level of sugar in your body,

05:48 Donna

it's... harmful or if you have too low right and and the thyroid it's the same kind of concept you

05:55 Donna

know when you get too high of cortisol in the brain it causes physiological changes and then those

06:01 Donna

physiological changes over time can create a gene mutation in the DNA sequence that can be passed

06:11 Donna

from one generation to the next. So there's a lot of research out there. So it's not just the

06:15 Donna

mother's trauma. It's also the father's trauma. Correct. Okay. Correct. And what they've done is

06:21 Donna

they've done some studies. They did some studies with the World Trade Center.

06:26 Donna

When the World Trade Center, when that catastrophe happened, of the survivors that were left,

06:33 Donna

there were 38 women who were pregnant. And so they followed them, giving them extra services

06:39 Donna

afterwards, you know, to make sure that they were okay and their babies were okay. But then they

06:44 Donna

tested their baby's saliva after being born. And the babies, even though they weren't born yet

06:51 Donna

during the incident, from birth had high levels of cortisol in their bodies already.

06:59 Donna

Oh, wow. And the way that they would react is they couldn't withstand stress as well as for normal,

07:08 Donna

such as like someone, a nurse would walk into the nursery, the lights would be down low,

07:13 Donna

and they'd turn the lights on, and the baby would get real distressed and then couldn't self-calm.

07:19 Donna

It would take a long time. And it was happening to all the babies that were in vitro during that

07:26 Donna

time. Oh, wow. Yeah, so it's very interesting studies of how that can be passed on from one

07:33 Donna

generation to the next. I think there's something about that information that almost is freeing

07:39 Tiffani

because it gives you an opportunity to understand it. I think, you know, sometimes Kirk and I share

07:44 Tiffani

examples of our own lives, and I can remember my grandmother, she grew up during the Depression.

07:49 Tiffani

And every time I would go to her house, she didn't buy Tupperwares. She would save every container

07:55 Tiffani

of everything, like the butter container, like the turkey container. That was an outward

08:00 Tiffani

manifestation, I think, of having gone through and survived that crisis, if you will.

08:06 Tiffani

But we don't always see those internal manifestations. And, you know, we do things the way we do

08:11 Tiffani

them and we don't always understand, why do I do this or why do I have this reaction? And sometimes

08:15 Tiffani

I think that it's so easy to say, well, just because, like, I'm terrible or just because of this.

08:20 Tiffani

And you internalize almost that shame. And it's so freeing to say, OK, maybe it's not that I'm

08:27 Tiffani

terrible. Maybe it's that I have this trauma that I don't quite understand. And how do I move from

08:33 Tiffani

having this trauma kind of take power over me? How do I overcome that? So for those listeners who maybe they didn’t experience the trauma.

08:45 Tiffani

Donna, what can they do? Well, just recognizing that. But what happens so many times is,

08:51 Donna

especially people, say, with a panic disorder, and they're having all these panic attacks after

08:57 Donna

panic attack, and what they don't realize is that they're being triggered from something in the

09:03 Donna

environment that they happen to be encountering at that time. And so learning how to recognize

09:09 Donna

those triggers, a lot of times people... who've had trauma get misdiagnosed with a panic disorder.

09:19 Donna

They'll go to, they'll finally, you know, go to the doctor and they'll say, okay, you have

09:24 Donna

generalized anxiety disorder and give them some medication. But that's not helpful because they're

09:29 Donna

still encountering the triggers that they don't even realize they're encountering. Remember I said,

09:34 Donna

whenever you go through something distressful, the brain has taken in all the information around

09:39 Donna

it. You know, while we're sitting here right now, in this small circle, the things all around us,

09:46 Donna

the curtains of different things, we're not really paying attention to because we're focusing in on

09:50 Donna

this. But our brain remembers that and connects it with this experience. And so what happens,

09:57 Donna

somebody will go, you know, they're just out in the community, and maybe somebody with the same

10:02 Donna

color shirt that had, during their traumatic experience, the other person was wearing.

10:09 Donna

And that can be a trigger, but they didn't even realize that was what was triggering them. They

10:13 Donna

just all of a sudden get this feeling like a cloud coming over them and depression and anxiety hit

10:19 Donna

them all at once, and they don't even understand why. So the first part is learning what your

10:25 Donna

triggers are, you know, paying attention, trying to keep a journal maybe of those times that it

10:31 Donna

does happen, what's going on in your surrounding at the time when you're experiencing that

10:37 Donna

depression or that panic or that anxiety so that you can kind of pinpoint what it is that may be

10:44 Donna

triggering you. It's something in the environment that you're encountering that was in the

10:48 Donna

environment during the time of the trauma that's similar. So being aware of your surroundings a

10:56 Kirk

little bit, writing it down when you're having these experiences. Okay. Tracking it.

11:03 Kirk

Interesting. And then once somebody... So let's say it is something like the color of her shirt,

11:09 Kirk

but you didn't experience it. It could be something from your mother or grandmother that triggers

11:17 Donna

it. There was another interesting when I was researching epigenetics. there was another research

11:23 Donna

that I found just totally fascinating that they did with mice. You know, we use mice so many times.

11:30 Donna

Poor mice. But it's kind of mean to the mice, so I apologize ahead of time for any mice lovers out

11:38 Donna

there. But we learned a lot from it. And what they did is they put some mice,

11:44 Donna

and this is when they were trying to determine, okay, mothers can pass it on.

11:50 Donna

Can fathers pass it on so so it was male mice that they were working with and what they did is they you

11:56 Donna

know had them in their little cage and they would periodically release a cherry blossom scent and

12:03 Donna

after they would release the scent they'd shock them And so, of course,

12:08 Donna

the mice got to fear that scent and start to panic when they'd smell the scent being released.

12:15 Donna

And they'd start running around the cage and just acting, you know, they were in a panic. Yes,

12:20 Donna

very frantic. And they also tested their cells and their semen for the DNA to see.

12:31 Donna

And then their children, after their children were born, because mice…

12:36 Donna

can have children very quickly. And lots of them. They don't wait nine months. It's a shorter

12:41 Donna

period of time. So they were testing their children and then their grandchildren. Okay. And what

12:46 Donna

happened is they would release the cherry scent. Now, they were never shocked,

12:53 Donna

right? They didn't have the experience. They didn't have the experience. But when they would

12:57 Donna

release the cherry scent, the same behaviors. They would go into a frenzy and was absolutely scared

13:05 Donna

to death. The grandchildren? The grandchildren and the great-grandchildren of the mice. So that

13:11 Donna

fear of the scent passed down, and their cells had the gene mutation.

13:19 Donna

Fascinating. Isn't that fascinating? I thought it was very fascinating. So we can learn a lot,

13:24 Donna

you know, and we are learning a lot from research. It is getting better. And these studies of

13:31 Donna

epigenetics is the reason now you hear so much about genetic testing. Because what they're trying

13:37 Donna

to do, there's a lot of research right now with diabetes and with cancer where they're trying to

13:43 Donna

find these biomarkers ahead of time in individuals with genetic testing. that are predisposed to

13:50 Donna

that, give them treatment quickly before it becomes a problem.

13:56 Donna

So being proactive instead of reactive. So once it's identified,

14:01 Kirk

you can start to mitigate future episodes. Right. And we can do the same thing in mental health.

14:07 Donna

We have so many good programs. out there, but a lot of them are reactive.

14:15 Donna

They become involved in these programs, different types of programs that we have because of

14:21 Donna

problems that are already existing now. They're already in crisis when they come to us.

14:27 Donna

But if we can start identifying these people that may be predisposed to anxiety,

14:33 Donna

depression, those kinds of things, and intervene beforehand and give them the help that they need.

14:39 Donna

preventive, you know, of what to do to take care of self-care. So if somebody,

14:46 Kirk

let's say one of our listeners is hearing this and going, well, maybe there was something in my

14:50 Kirk

family's history, would you recommend communicating with parents, communicating with grandparents

14:56 Kirk

about... may have happened in their lives. Right. You know, especially our parents and grandparents

15:01 Donna

came from a generation where you didn't really talk about things that, you know. But,

15:07 Donna

yes, I would suggest, you know, talk to them. Ask them questions, not just about what were all the

15:12 Donna

fun times that you had to go. You know, what were some of your struggles? You know, what did you

15:16 Donna

struggle with? You know, what did you do to get through it? You know, those kinds of things,

15:22 Donna

having those kinds of conversations, especially now the holidays are coming. up, you know, and a

15:28 Donna

lot of them would just be glad to be able to talk and not have it hidden. Exactly.

15:34 Kirk

Tell their story. Exactly. Exactly. Well, and the population of, you know, listeners that we hear

15:39 Tiffani

from a lot are college age students. And during that college age, it's this weird phenomenon where

15:45 Tiffani

you start to see your parents as people, right? So they are always your parents,

15:50 Tiffani

of course, but because you're developing that autonomy, you know, you're an adult kind of. I

15:56 Tiffani

remember the first time I saw my mom and I saw her as. a person, separate from my mom.

16:02 Tiffani

And there's a sense of compassion, I think, that hits you sometimes because sometimes we don't

16:07 Tiffani

always see our parents as people. We don't see them as people who are humans and have their own

16:11 Tiffani

needs and feelings and struggles and tribulations. And I think this young adult season where you're

16:18 Tiffani

starting to step into your own and that grace of saying, Well, my mom did the best that she could

16:24 Tiffani

with what she had. Right. And looking at her as a human with needs and with hurts and with feelings

16:29 Tiffani

and being at a place where you can have that conversation. I think you're right. I think it

16:33 Tiffani

probably it's going to be incredibly uncomfortable, but also. Maybe resilience, too,

16:39 Donna

because, you know, to say, wow, my parents went through all of this,

16:44 Donna

but yet they persevered and, you know, and it can give you hope. Exactly.

16:51 Tiffani

Just strengthen that sense of, I don't know, grace. And just you see them through a different lens

16:56 Tiffani

of you really tried. And unfortunately, there are going to be some family dynamics where maybe that

17:02 Tiffani

isn't true. Maybe the person didn't try. There's a lot of brokenness in families. That said,

17:08 Tiffani

I think for a lot of us, for the most part, we do the best we can with what we have. We really try.

17:14 Tiffani

I know that I'm not the perfect parent. My mom wasn't either. But looking back, there's a sense of

17:19 Tiffani

compassion and grace that I have. Like, man, you tried. You really did. And I think that, like what

17:24 Tiffani

I said before, of trying to be that person to where my ceiling is my child's threshold, part of

17:30 Tiffani

that is taking care of yourself. I loved what you said before of going through hard things and

17:35 Tiffani

finding out, well, how do I process my trauma? How do I learn how to heal? Because at a certain

17:39 Tiffani

point, it becomes your responsibility to do the work. And so when you are in that place where

17:45 Tiffani

you're ready to do the work, Donna, how do you treat trauma? What are the types of therapies that

17:50 Donna

you would do? Well, one of the ones that I tend to love is the eye.

17:58 Donna

movement desensitization reprocessing, EMDR. It replicates,

18:03 Donna

you know, during our sleep. We do that REM sleep where the eyes are, you know, going back and

18:08 Donna

forth. And that's the way our bodies are made. That's the way our bodies are designed to reduce the

18:14 Donna

stress of the day, right? And, of course, if somebody doesn't have enough REM sleep,

18:19 Donna

you know, you've learned that in Psychology 101, we talk about that REM sleep and the importance.

18:24 Donna

And if you don't get enough of the REM sleep, then you have some emotional and psychological

18:30 Donna

problems, right? And so what EMDR basically is is replicating that. at an awake state.

18:36 Donna

So the therapist has them bring up the distressing memories.

18:41 Donna

They do those bilateral stimulations whether it's with the eyes or with its tapping with their

18:49 Donna

hands on their biceps or shoulders or using little tappers that they hold in their hands.

18:56 Donna

One way where you're stimulating right side, left side, right side, left side of the body.

19:02 Donna

That tends to have a calming effect. And it just resets the brain so that you tend to have a

19:12 Donna

different perspective. As you go along the negative thought, everything that happens to us in life,

19:19 Donna

we have a belief about it, right? Whether it's positive or negative, we develop a belief about what

19:25 Donna

happened to us. And so, so many times, we're our worst enemies.

19:31 Donna

You know, we really are. And we hold on to things. And we tend to hold on to those negative beliefs

19:37 Donna

as we go. And things that happen to us in life either confirm or deny those beliefs.

19:43 Donna

And so many times what happens, you know, because we're so negative toward ourselves,

19:49 Donna

we're our own worst enemy. When these things happen, it just confirms to us. It validates those

19:55 Donna

negative thoughts. And so you work on those negative thoughts. to help move toward the brain wants

20:04 Donna

to heal. The brain will heal itself and will tend to move toward the positive if you allow it to do

20:12 Donna

so and don't block it. And so what you're doing with replicating that REM is you're helping the

20:18 Donna

brain focus. on the positive and move toward the positive. And so you don't forget what happened to

20:25 Donna

you, but you have a different perspective, and it doesn't feel like it's happening all over again,

20:30 Donna

and it takes away that emotional charge. It doesn't re-traumatize.

20:37 Donna

Right, right. So there's that. There's ART,

20:43 Donna

accelerated resolution therapy, a lot of people, which is very similar to the EMDR.

20:48 Donna

But any of these therapies that are specifically designed to work with individuals who've undergone

20:57 Donna

trauma is something I would recommend for anybody that's struggling with that and just having a

21:06 Donna

hard time sleeping at night because their brain is just going over and over and over, ruminating

21:11 Kirk

over and over and over. We tend to do that. We did an episode where we talked about going into

21:18 Kirk

therapy or what's one of the first steps. And one of the things we mentioned in that podcast was,

21:24 Kirk

you know, ask about the therapist. Theoretical background, what area of strength they are.

21:31 Kirk

EMDR is actually an additional training somebody can get and certification to actually practice

21:39 Kirk

that with individuals. There's a nice little structure to it and all of this. Because I know you

21:45 Kirk

trained me and I appreciate that. Because I was very skeptical of EMDR in the beginnings.

21:52 Kirk

When that first came out, there wasn't a lot of heavy science behind it. And then it slowly, because

21:57 Kirk

you're watching this whole process and it's like, oh, that's just voodoo. Right.

22:03 Kirk

But then the science started building on it and the research. So it's really good evidence-based

22:07 Donna

practices. Well, it's science-based. Yes. And you're tapping into the brain's natural healing

22:15 Donna

process and how the brain processes information. And I think that's why it's so effective, is

22:22 Donna

because the brain is already designed that way, right? And you're just tapping into how the brain

22:28 Donna

processes information and guiding that whole process. And it happens quickly. does. And I mean,

22:34 Kirk

I think that's what the health care industry is really like. Oh, this happens quick. They like

22:39 Kirk

that. But again, like you said, it's based in science. So it's not just, well, you need to cut it

22:45 Kirk

back and figure it out. It's no, this is how this works. And it's a good partnership with the

22:51 Kirk

therapist and the client in regard to that because the client will really tell you,

22:57 Kirk

hey, it's working. No, it's not. Well, Donna, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that I read

23:02 Tiffani

somewhere that with EMDR, it can also be used to treat migraines or chronic pain even,

23:08 Donna

right? Right. Not just traumatic events. Well, you know, migraines are traumatic.

23:14 Kirk

Yes, they are. But yes, like I said,

23:19 Donna

everything in life, whether it's positive or negative or very traumatic or just annoying.

23:27 Donna

Right. We develop beliefs about it. And so that's why just about anything can be treated.

23:34 Donna

It's been used to help athletes improve their performance. So you can use it both ways,

23:41 Donna

you know, for improving your performance as well as. getting rid of negative beliefs.

23:49 Donna

Build on the positive. Build on the positive, which makes it a very effective tool to have in your

23:56 Kirk

toolbox if you're a therapist. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Donna, we really appreciate you coming

24:02 Kirk

and joining us and sharing a little bit. Thank you so much. Because we could talk all day about

24:06 Kirk

some of this stuff. Yes, we could. And the work that you've done some research with and worked

24:12 Kirk

with. And it's very much appreciated that you're here today. Thank you for having me. You're

24:16 Kirk

welcome. Thank you. You're welcome.