The ability to innovate and use technology isn't a perception often levelled to the construction industry.

And in this episode of Beyond The Build we explore whether that's the barrier to attracting the right talent and responding to the ongoing shortage of skills.

Louise Bloxham is joined by Chief Executive of Build UK, Susannah Nichol, Louisa Finlay, the Chief People Officer at Kier and Digital Director of The BIM Academy Bola Abisogun.

You can find out more and continue the conversation at Kier.co.uk/podcast

Welcome to the Kier Beyond the Build podcast, where we get together with Kier and industry experts to explore the big issues affecting our sector. The ability to innovate and use technology isn't a perception often levelled to the construction industry. And in today's episode, we explore whether that's the barrier to attracting the right talent and responding to the ongoing shortage of skills.

As a sector, how can we get better at doing digital?

We kicked off today's conversation with Susannah Nichol, Chief Executive of Build UK and Louisa Finlay, Chief People Officer at Kier, and I started by asking Louisa what we mean when we talk about digital skills, is it all about drones, robots, and AI, or is it more accessible than that?

I think the definition of digital skills is huge, and that's why it's so exciting. It's everything from using data. So to put that in more understandable language, when you go to Tesco's and you have a club card, it's understanding what people like and so they get offers on things like that.

To using what we call BIM, which is about modeling buildings before you build them to make sure they're built well, to finding ways for the sort of boring jobs to be more automised and using robotics so that a machine can do the more repeat tasks. And then it can be drones. And it can be exciting things like 3D printing.

And also something that I think is really important is using VR. So for example, people can learn about dinosaurs, visually. So it's just such a huge topic.

And Susannah, across the sector then, are we seeing these types of skills in proliferation or actually are we seeing it in pockets?

I think you started with the perfect question there, Louise in what is digital because we use it to talk in a way that I don't think anybody really understands.

So we say we need more digital skills and I can see people go, I don't know what that means. Or you say you need some digital training. And again, Training in what? And as Louisa's just said, it is so huge, I think from hearing what Louisa's just said, that digital is the wrong word. What we're talking about is smarter ways of working, and some of those are using how we use data.

We are really poor as a sector at using data. We have so much of it. We do not use it. We have access to so much technology, but we don't use it. Even basic things like apps most people don't even use spreadsheets properly to get the data out of them that, that we need, let alone some of this more complex technology.

We've all got a smartphone. We run our lives on these now. So I think construction's really far behind the curve in making it an integral part of what we do. In answer to your question, are we using it? I think it's sad face here. Nowhere near even at the basic level to the extent that we should do, and I liken it to - so I walk out of my house with my digital watch on, and I've got maps on it, I've got the radio on it. I pay for everything on it. I can walk out the house with my watch and nothing else yet we are nowhere near in construction, so there's pockets of good stuff. But we need to make it much more joined up.

We need to make it much more consistent across the sector so that the whole supply chain on some core, smarter ways of working, we are all doing it in the same way. Otherwise, we are never going get the scale of change that we need. So we are never going to adopt it in a way that's gonna revolutionise our industry.

So are we in a bit of a chicken and egg situation here then? Do we need the digital skills to revolutionize the industry or actually does the digital transformation, the sector-wide digital transformation need to happen to an extent that, people understand what we mean when we talk about digital and can develop those skills?

My view is it is a bit chicken and egg, but the digital comes first. I didn't know I needed a smartphone. But I've now got one and I use it for everything. I think smarter ways of working and digital uses of technology, they have to be really easy to work and they have to give you a win. They have to make your life better in some way, or it's more complicated to use it in the first place, but the win is there at the end, otherwise nobody's going to change anything. And that is the big challenge we have in construction is the wins take, sometimes it feels too long to be realised, and it's quite a big investment for whether it's a project or a company to make that we are really slow adopters across the sector. There are in pockets - people will look and say, but why aren't you using this? This is so much better. I set my site out better, or we log people in. I went to somebody's office the other day and I literally touched the screen. It asked my name and the rest is done. I do that when I go and check in at the doctors. Yet there are still places I go and I have to write my name and the day and all of that. And that now feels really backwards. Yet it's such a small piece of technology. So the technology goes ahead. We then learn to use it is how I feel.

But I think to pick up on what Susie said there, it's really important that there are people who won't immediately go and get a digital watch.

Susie's quite forward thinking, so she'll get one. And so it's advertising and ensuring we are really clear on those advantages, so people who might not be quite so comfortable trying new things really clearly see the advantages and can clearly access that, that digital bit of equipment, it isn't too expensive, it isn't difficult to find so that they too want to follow those people that are forward thinking.

\The skills shortage is an immediate problem, it's facing the sector right now. And yet when we talk about digital skills and we've spoken already about the fact that a degree of digital transformation is needed to really move the sector in the right direction when it comes to digital.

So can we therefore say that we can use digital, or that digital is the answer to the current. Issues facing the sector

I think there's a couple of questions in there Lou, can I answer, break them down into a little bit?

You can. Yes.

There is a skill shortage. So step one is we do have to resolve the skill shortage and we have to attract amazing people into this industry. Be they school leavers, be they people returning to work, be they people leaving the army. Loads and loads of different routes into the industry, so we have to attract them. One of the ways to attract them and retain them is for them to see that the construction industry is forward thinking and isn't being left behind and is using, all the modern technologies so that their day job isn't boring.

Those repeat tasks are picked up by robotics or whatever else, and they can really understand the exciting industry that is construction. And actually, we have, Susie and I were lucky enough to go to a site together for open doors, and it was an absolute eye opener. The most inspiring set of, I think they were year 10, 11, and 12, and they all wanted to join a STEM career I would suggest. And once they saw the opportunities in construction, and particularly the opportunities to drive construction into the digital age, they were wanting to know how they could get jobs, how they could get work experience. And so our job, and this is very much the contractors along with Build UK, is to ensure it's really easy for all these people to access the industry.

And I think that that is such a key part of any conversation about be it digital or moving the industry forward.

But the first thing we have to look at right now is the journey from education into employment in construction is really hard work. Finding career information so you know what that path in is?

If you ask anybody in construction, what are the top five construction universities? I don't think anybody would be able to answer them. But they can in medicine, they can in other sectors, they would be able to say these are the top five, these are the ones you want to, those are the ones you definitely don't want to go to.

So we have to make that journey so much easier. And you are right Louise, about 40,000 young people are on a construction course at the moment. About 8,000 of them get jobs in construction. So we don't have to keep attracting more people. Actually, where our efforts should be is making sure that a bigger percentage of those young people that step into the industry and have put their hand up or their mum's told them to go into a college course, but they are there doing something construction related. That we actually put out our hands and pull them through into the industry, into a job. And we talk about wanting new skills. We talk about wanting people, but we do not offer jobs. We offer self-employment opportunities. We offer work, but we don't offer jobs. And a lot of young people want a job where they know they're going to be paid, when they can start to save for a mortgage, where they've actually got that stability and that certainty.

So in terms of, it's not all about just attracting people. It is about making sure that once they step into and say I'm interested in construction, that we bring them all the way through. So they are actually huge assets to us because they will bring a lot of the skills and insight that we actually need.

What we also have to remember is we've got a labour shortage in this country. It's not that we can't recruit people. There are not enough physical people in this country to do the jobs that we need in this country across every single sector. So we are in a war for talent, and construction has to be much smarter about why construction and why not something else.

How can we really promote that this is a place to be and this is a sector that you want to come into and develop your career in.

I do think our industry is exciting, maybe it's because Lou, we are in it. We're engineers. We love what we do. We're very lucky to have a job that we love. You walk past, you walk to school, you walk to work, you get on a train, you go to hospital, you wake up in the morning in your house.

That is what construction does. And I and you are right Louise, some of this is about messaging. We, as the industry, have to provide the stability, not anybody else, whether that's government, whether it's ministers, whether it's other stakeholders. We as the industry. Comms really comes into this, how we communicate.

Our job roles are not clear. We are really poor at explaining what jobs do. So other sectors, I think their jobs are simpler. If you ask maybe what does the quantity surveyor do? A young person's just going to look at you blank. If you ask what an air traffic controller does or a pilot does, actually, they get that.

So gets someone on a construction site and do you know what most people are really really excited, but how we then move them from that excitement into a job, a career? Then next stage on their education is the bit we have to fix.

And if I can just add to that, to bring it slightly, even more to the digital piece. Twenty, thirty years ago, people would say you are either a bricklayer or a carpenter or an engineer or a site manager. And whether we've quite got what all the jobs are right? There are now fantastic jobs for people who love working with data, and we need to move recognising the skills crisis move so that we use that much more often so that our tower cranes have somebody who's using the data to make sure that they're really efficient.

So we maybe have autonomous vehicles that are set by somebody brilliant using digital skills so that we build as many things in a factory, so it's in really good environment. And somebody with those digital skills is able to monitor each of the individual pieces digitally to get it onto site and ensure the most efficient process.

So somebody's then analysing that data to say, actually, we could make that. One hour quicker by doing this. And if you then throw in the piece that we are moving into really smart buildings and how exciting it is if you want, to be part of resolving our climate crisis the decarbonization piece is going to be heavily driven by using digital skills, by being able to make buildings smart so that the electricity turns off when people aren't in them so we don't use energy when people aren't in them.

And so we really make our infrastructure and that can be roads, buildings, schools, hospitals, really smart by using those clever technologies when we build them and then operate them. And actually, I happen to think the business I was lucky enough to choose is the most exciting business to be in.

We did a podcast on International Women's Day, and five people introduced themselves ahead of me, all from Kier and they all said that they had the best job. And what a lovely place to be that you've got all those people thinking they've got the best career. So, what we have to do, Lou, as an industry, is make sure everybody understands how brilliant it is.

And yes, I think a lot of what Build UK are doing is bringing us to together, but we now need to willingly get together as an industry so people can see those different careers. But we need to do it not just as Kier or Build UK members as the whole industry.

Has the sector got a choice when it comes to adopting these smarter ways of working?

Why would we want to have a choice? Who doesn't want a smarter, more efficient, more productive industry? So more of us can do the jobs that are the exciting bits that we really want to do, rather than the things that you think surely a machine or AI or do we need to do this job at all? Absolutely. We should be embracing this it's the way forward.

And we need to break down the barriers why people are, worried about the change. You started off great questions about a skills crisis. This isn't about losing jobs, it's about ensuring that we have the right people to do the right jobs and that things that can be done by digital tools are done by digital tools.

Change is a bit scary and a lot of digital and data led decisions can mean things are very transparent and that can worry people. But actually if you give it a go, it can be the opposite. It can free you up to be even better at your job because you've got fantastic information that then allows you to be even better.

That's a really good point, isn't it? Because I think often, when people think about technology or when there's been progress historically, that's always led to a huge change and perhaps hardship for people.

We are a people industry and we always will be. We are creating the built environment for people. So it's really important that the conversations are making sure we're building that right environment. They're just different jobs. But it is key to taking people with you and just telling people that we've actually got to show people, and I think we are really good at writing reports and telling people how it would be better actually some of its hearts and minds and taking people there.

We've spoken about fear of change, being nervous about change as a barrier to this. Are there any other major barriers that is stopping the sector, adopting these smarter ways of working?

Consistency. Having fifty, sixty different bits of technology, doing the same thing is not an efficient way of doing things.

And I think the mindset of the industry sometimes is I have to do it my way. As opposed to saying, who's doing this really well? Why don't we go and talk to them and we'll join forces with them. Because if you adopt that same bit of technology, we accelerate the pace of change. Our whole supply chain is learning one or two ways of doing things so they become more productive.

If you are a subcontractor in this industry, you work for six or seven different contractors. And every contractor does it in a slightly different way. That is a huge burden. So it just adds cost. So that's another reason why people say, do you know what? I'll then do it my own way. And all you do is add another one.

And we learned this during covid, we can all share. They do it in the motor sector where actually if somebody goes ahead of the curve, the next one says we'll take that technology and we'll make it better so people leapfrog over each other and we end up much more quickly in a much better place.

So contractors like Kier who are having those conversations with others and are sitting there saying, what's the best way of doing this? You do it better than I do, fantastic. How can I learn from you and let me share something that we are doing possibly better than you, and you can benefit from that.

And that's been really shown in the work that's been done on with the Ministry of Justice on the recent alliancing. That gets people together to learn fast from each other.

And thus you spiral some great practice. You speed up, you get productivity. In that instance you manage to do programmes like Making Ground so we can bring people back to work productively. But it is everybody in the chain needs to be part of the alliance and that includes the fantastic supply chain.

I did a visit the other day driving our modern methods of construction and offsite agenda and went and visited one of our partners, and I learned so much on how they constantly learn and increase their productivity. So it's just having that open mind to learn fast.

So we've had a really interesting conversation today about the importance of adopting smarter ways of working and really that transformation which is needed across the sector.

So when we talk about this in terms of digital skills, is it actually too narrow?

Yes. It is too narrow. Just to talk about digital skills you mentioned there smarter ways of working. I think we have to open people's minds. It's not just what they might traditionally feel as digital. But in order to use new technology, you need all the other skills as well.

You still need the people skills. You still need the technical skills. You still need those management skills, and that's one of the fantastic opportunities in construction. But also one of the challenges, people have to be really well-rounded. They have to have a lot of skills in their basket to operate in this industry.

Because you are doing a lot of technical stuff, you are also talking to a lot of people across all different levels as well. So it is much wider than digital skills, which is why smarter ways of working is I think a much better phrase.

We've spoken a lot today about what we need to do to attract more people into the industry.

But when we get people in and we spend time developing their skills and so on, how do we retain these people and these skills in the industry?

So I think the very subject of this podcast is part of the answer as long as we are constantly pushing the boundaries, so we make sure we do whatever job we are doing in the most forward thinking and collaborative way possible. As long as we develop our people continually, be that in different digital skills, be that in technical skills, as Susie said, learning to be a leader, learning to be a manager, that there's accessibility to either flexible or agile working.

It's becoming more and more important. So it's being an industry or a business where people want to come to work and feel that they can be themselves at work. And so it's just having open doors to all those really diverse people and making sure we're a really inclusive workplace, and also that we're a workplace to pick up on something that Susie said that I use the term steel shamelessly, and I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's learning from each other fast so that we constantly improve. As people in construction, we like solving problems, so providing we've always got something that drives us forward and makes us better so that next hospital we deliver or that next road we build or the infrastructure we put in for someone to have internet is done as productively, safely, and well as possible. I think we'll retain people in the industry.

We're continuing our conversation on digital skills today, and I'm really pleased to be joined by Bola Abisogun. And Bola you are the digital director at the BIM Academy, so thank you so much for joining us today. It's great to have you with us. I was having a look on the BIM Academy website and on your About Us page, you're described as "digital visionaries fundamentally changing the built environment" which I think is just a wonderful description, but I wondered if you could give us a little bit more information on what sits behind that.

So it's about the conversation. The conversation that needs to happen across industry, led by leaders that talks about the digital transformation that hasn't happened and needs to happen. We want to educate clients more than anything else, and I personally want to educate young people. And then the gap in the middle is the journey that we're going on.

The visionary piece isn't about us, it's about the influence we want to have in the sector and the conversation we want to inspire. And it's not easy, it's a slow burn, but I think the pandemic has helped shift the conversation into overdrive.

What do you think the barriers are to, to the sector embracing that change, and what can organizations like yours do to help us?

So I've actually changed the conversation from talking about digital skills and digital transformation and talking about Net zero and decarbonization. Because everybody wants to get there, right? And then I bake that digital piece within the net zero decarbonization conversation because actually it makes sense.

So that's what we're doing.

So it's interesting because I guess your personal style is naturally to disrupt and to challenge, but I guess in a way, you're working in a sector where we've got low margins and it's really competitive. So I guess that sort of environment doesn't always lend itself to . Sort of thinking differently and innovating. And I think it can also, I guess suppose generally this fear of technology. Technology sounds, that sounds expensive, that sounds difficult. Do you come up against that?

Always And I'm, look, fundamentally, I'm a chartered quantity surveyor, right?

It's all about the numbers for me, right? But I'm not a man of just hard cold numbers. I'm all about the social economic, the non-cashable numbers too, right? The social value, the people piece. Yeah. And fundamentally, what I'm trying to push more for. Is clients to understand that they can ask better questions and ask for better deliverables on completion of construction projects, one of which should be a digital twin.

When you think about the whole life cycle of the asset you're trying to build. And when you get there very quickly when you get there out outline business case stage. And you can articulate the commercial value for engaging with a digital strategy that talks about bringing assets to life in an intelligent way, that allows remote working, remote access to, to, to data and insight, because that's what the pandemic taught us we could do.

Then you really begin to think about what that value conversation really contains as a conversation. And when people talk about cost, I talk about investment. When people talk about outcomes, I talk about value. And they're slightly different conversations, but really talking about the same thing. And our problem is more about language and understanding than about the reality.

We've got too much tech. Too much tech. We just do not have the leadership pushing for the right skill sets to be baked into existing roles. And that's what I'm pushing for at BIM Academy. I'm also pushing through that for my New Academy, which is the Digital Twin Skills Academy which is focused on young people.

So you've spoken about your particular passion and the work that you are doing to attract young people. Are we having to really convince them to come into the sector? Do they want to work in the sector? Is it hard work to get them interested in it?

Getting young people to come in to the sector, or at least recognise the opportunity in the sector isn't the problem.

The problem begins to manifest when they come in and don't feel welcome or looked after or championed or serviced or respected or understood, right? That's when they think actually, I don't like construction. Again, it comes back to people and because they are tech natives and their whole wiring is different, right?

Some things they just can't understand why we do, and that is why the digital skills piece is so important, and that is why I'm focusing on 16 to 25 at the Digital Twin Skills Academy because I know that cohort, as diverse as it is, because a lot of them are studying STEM subjects, will diversify the sector by default.

But they need two things. They need access and they need empathy to retain a presence in the sector. And again, two things. We don't do well in construction, so it's not rocket science. It is relatively an easy fix, but people need to change.

Yeah. It's, I just think that's so interesting because often, we'll talk about, oh, it's hard to attract kids into the sector.

They don't want muddy boots and these muddy sites and all the rest of it. But actually you're really turning that on its head and saying, yeah, you, you can get them. You just can't keep them. And that I think, comes back to it as well. I think a lot of the thinking which is going on across the sector in terms of the diversity and inclusion and actually how we treat different groups of people to make them feel yeah, really welcome and respected and being willing to change it and so on. So look in, in terms of, for you, and I know this might be hard to do cause you, you're so in involved across various facets of it, but if there was one key message that you wanted to leave the listeners of this podcast with in terms of what we as a sector need to do to get to grips with our digital skills crisis, what would it be?

Oh, wow. One thing, that's not fair, Louise.

I'm not going to give you a word count. No, I know it's a bit harsh, but you know.

Okay. Look if there was one thing that I would ask of the sector, it would be to recognise that we do not have the luxury of time on the net zero decarbonisation challenge, and therefore, in order to monitor and measure our progress towards it, we're going to need digital twin solutions.

And because we are going to need digital twin solutions, we're going to need a different business model to succeed and compete. And because we're going need a different business model to compete, we're gonna need different people. To determine what that business model looks like, and I want everyone to recognise that's not optional.

It's going to become mandatory so I'd leave your audience with that.

Thank you to all of our guests for their time and sharing their expertise. I'll be back next month with the new episode. In the meantime, don't forget to hit the subscribe button on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

You can also visit Kier.co.uk/ podcast to find out more.