Matinee Minutia: Stella (1990) - The Divine Ms. M.'s Selfless Motherhood

Episode 804: Show Notes

This week, DJ and Matt travel back to a world of cargo pants, Aquanet, and dial-up—1990! Before diving into Bette Midler’s heartbreaking turn as a single mom, the duo catches up on Lula May's questionable Thanksgiving invitation and Cooter Jack’s latest shenanigans in the basement. Once the VCR stops blinking, the focus turns to the 1990 remake of Stella, exploring the class divide, a mother's ultimate sacrifice, and the enduring power of Bette Midler's talent.

Key Segments

• [00:00:02] Welcome & Trailer Park Thanksgiving: Fall banter, dealing with leaves6. The high-stakes invitation to Lula May's for a possibly hunted turkey.
• [00:02:45] Trapped in Time: The Year is 1990: World events like the release of Nelson Mandela, the start of the Gulf War, German reunification, and the launch of the Hubble Space Telescope8. Notable figures passing away, including Greta Garbo and Sammy Davis Jr.9.
• [00:04:15] The Movie Lineup: Discussing the big hits of the time: Home Alone, Ghost, and Dances with Wolves10101010. The selection of the feature film: Stella.
• [00:07:21] Feature Film Discussion: Stella (1990): The plot, starring Bette Midler as Stella Claire 1212, a feisty, independent working-class woman 13131313who has a child with the upper-class Dr. Stephen Dallas (Stephen Collins)14141414.
• [00:11:14] Setting the Scene: Watertown, NY in the Late 60s: Discussing the film's setting as a working-class "bedroom community" 15and how the 1990 remake addressed modern issues like the availability of the birth control pill and a woman’s reproductive choices.
• [00:14:01] The Class Divide and Sacrifice: Stella's realization that her world is not enough for her daughter, Jenny17. Frustration over Stella repeatedly turning down financial help from the wealthy father.
• [00:20:21] Director Spotlight: John Ehrman: Highlighting his extensive career in American television, including episodes of Star Trek, The Outer Limits 19, and winning an award for directing the miniseries Roots.
• [00:23:00] Star Spotlight: Bette Midler: Celebrating the Divine Ms. M. 21, an EGOT winner 2222, and her early career roots in the gay community23. Career highlights include The Rose 24, Beaches 25252525, Hocus Pocus 26, and The First Wives Club27272727.
• [00:33:14] The Embarrassing Florida Trip: The climactic scene where Stella's vibrant, "Carmen Miranda-esque" style 28clashes with the muted colors of Jenny's wealthy friends 29, causing Jenny immense embarrassment30.
• [00:37:34] The Birthday Party Disaster & Eileen Brennan: Stella and best friend Ed Munn (John Goodman) 31are arrested after a bar fight, witnessed by the judgmental PTA head, Mrs. Wilkerson (Eileen Brennan)32. This leads to the ultimate humiliation: no one showing up to Jenny's 16th birthday party33.
• [01:23:16] Supporting Cameos: Spotlighting Ben Stiller as the "bad boy boyfriend" 34and his surprising love for Star Trek35.
• [01:27:29] Stella in the Modern Era: Reimagining a contemporary remake, where Ed Munn (John Goodman's character) is positioned as the classic "nice guy" trope 36and would ideally get sober.

Best Quotes

• "Apparently we are invited to the trailer for Thanksgiving this year."
• "Most people who know Lula Mae know you don't want to [touch this]
• "The film you're watching today is Stella, about a feisty working class single mother played by Bette Midler, who sacrifices her relationship with her child so she can grow up having a better life..."
• "But Stella was released in 1990, directed by John Ehrman, and as you heard, stars Bette Midler as Stella Claire."
• (On the Florida trip wardrobe) "It's almost as if everyone else is being dressed by Martha Stewart. And Bette Midler has gone to Gloria Estefan's wardrobe."

Oh, well, Heidi Hill there kind listener folk. It is the first weekend in the new verse. The, the leaves have all come down. Well, not all of them, but a lot of them.

Enough to pick up if you're that kind of person. Although I tend to just mow over them because that's what dad did.

Okay. Did you get your invite?

I get my invite.

Did you get your invite from, From Lula May? Apparently we are invited to the trailer for Thanksgiving this year.

Oh.

Yes. I, I, I hesitate to. I. Okay. Last year, I think she actually shot a turkey. She didn't actually go buy one. Oh, I heard that there was.

You know, those little pin feathers that were left in it. I don't know. All I know is that just.

I, yeah, I did. I just venture to guess that depending on the door you have to knock on over there in the park.

That depends on what's for dinner because, well, there's more than potholes around there, if you know what I mean.

Okay. Yeah.

What I'm worried about is that she's gonna go shoot a turkey, and a Cooter Jack is gonna be like, boiling it in oil at that trailer and he's gonna set everything on fire.

Well, he better mind his P's and q's, otherwise he might be the turkey.

Well, you know, he's down in the basement again.

He is? Well, I did hear the door there.

Okay, we really gotta get some WD40.

Oh, and you, you might want to wipe down that cassette before we pop it into the machine.

Oh, God knows what he's done with it. I don't want to know.

Well, let's get her in. Whoa. Hey there. Well, I think I see the, the yard signs for, For Clinton running for office, so I can only imagine what year this is.

Let's see, what else?

No idea. But why. Why does our hair look like this? Goodness.

Did you buy more Aquanet?

I don't know, but these cargo pants are ridiculous.

Oh, my gosh, you remind me of MC Hammer. I hadn't heard of those in school.

Hey, can't touch this. Okay.

Well, most people who know Lula Mae know you don't want to, but. Well, let's. You know, it's blinking there. Let's figure out when the heck we are.

While Iraq's invasion of Kuwait sparked the Gulf War, Germany reunified, ending decades of Cold War division. And the Hubble Space Telescope launched opening a New era of astronomy.

The year also saw the poll tax riots in London, highlighting rising public unrest. Celebrity birthdays included Jennifer Lawrence and Dev Patel, who would later become major Hollywood stars.

Notable deaths included Greta Garbo, the legendary screen icon, and Sammy Davis Jr. The groundbreaking entertainer and Rat Pack member.

Wow. Sammy Davis Jr. Just died.

They say gird your loins because we're. We're anticipating that Thanksgiving in the trailer park there. But, you know, I feel a little bit of rock and metal going on.

Let's just play that theme.

Rewind through time into movie night blockbusters, indies in black and white, from 80s thrills to silver screen dreams trapped in the past by a time machine for DJ and MA to explore the lore. The past is present, and you're gonna want more.

Oh, November, and we already have some expectations of places we're going and people we're gonna maybe spend time with.

I'm gonna make a jello mold.

Anyway, I was gonna ask Matt, did you ever get that restraining order settled with Lula May's cousin there?

I don't think so. I'm still waiting to hear back. I don't know.

Well, speaking of making an effort and trying to be social, sometimes people leave the house and go about their business going down on the town. Take a gander over there in the paper and let us know what kind of options we have for going out.

Isn't it nice to actually hold a print paper? Gosh. All right. Oh, here we go.

Mom used to hang hers up indoors for a couple of days because the. The inks that they used to use back then were pretty strong, and she had allergies.

What? Okay, I think I have heard of that before. Interesting. I love the smell of fresh newspaper print. But anyway. Okay, here we go. Here we go. Here it is.

Okay. Oh, Home Alone is playing. Apparently it's number one right now.

Everyone's making that face.

Yeah, well. Oh, ghost. I actually saw that in the theater the first time.

That was such a good movie. And, you know, actually was kind of Jimmy Moore's big breakthrough. Although she did have a couple of smaller roles before this.

This is the first time she was, like, really big in the spotlight.

Well, yeah, she was part of the Brat Pack, too, I think, but yeah.

Oh, yes. St. Elmo's Fire. She was the gal who was trying to figure out how to afford her mom's funeral.

Okay. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen that film. I know, right?

I've watched it maybe once or twice.

But, you know, I love the soundtrack.

Andrew McCarthy was in it and he was cute back then. Well, he's handsome now, but.

Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah, but you know, I saw Ghost because of Whoopi Goldberg, because I was such a huge fan of hers.

But Patrick Swayze, but Dances with Wolves, Evan Costner, that was one of my mom's favorites for a while.

Yeah, her, her, her character in the movie of Dances with Wolves was like Stands with the Fist or something like that.

I like that. I won't repeat that one. Dirty joke.

We were.

Yeah. I wonder which one we're gonna end up seeing.

I wonder. Well, it's no secret that that VCR blinks from time to time. Let's figure it out.

The film you're watching today is Stella, about a feisty working class single mother played by Bette Midler, who sacrifices her relationship with her child so she can grow up having a better life with her estranged but wealthy father.

Well.

Oh, goody.

If nothing else, Bette Midler being in it explains the feisty working class part.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah. Okay, well, let's give this a watch.

Yeah, I mean, this is technically a remake. You know, it was done a couple of times before it was a silent film back in 25.

She's a fiercely independent working class woman and the film is a remake. As I was saying, she and Bette Midler brought her own charm and grit to the role.

This is a heartfelt melodrama, not, not marshmallows, but melodrama that asks what a mother will sacrifice for her child.

Wow. Yeah, it was a. It was an okay movie. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what? So her, she actually lives in a very modest world, but one that she's happy in.

I mean, she works in a bar. You know, she lives with very little, but you know, she. Basically, she's living her life on her own terms.

We have no idea what her family life was like or anything. She just were kind of brought into it when she falls for Dr. Stephen Dallas. Yeah, Isn't that a name? Right, like.

Yeah, anyway, brown cow, and let me tell you, played by Stephen Collins. And he was back in his Sexiest time then. Yeah.

Before getting into trouble. But we'll, we won't talk about that.

Or maybe we will either. But their worlds basically collide. I mean, he's like upper. He has this upper class background and she's working class roots, actually.

She's kind of a little. I mean, working class is kind of up from, I think, where she came from, let's just say.

But because, I mean, this performance, I mean, she was basically like, you know, like a cockney cleaning woman.

Yeah, like a coal miner's daughter. Right?

Yeah, exactly. But then they have this fling, knowing that he's going to leave. And then after. And then she gets pregnant and she basically decides to have the baby.

They have a big fight. She's like, I won't take your money. I won't take anything from you. Get out. Get out. Like, oh, girl, really? Come on.

He's like, take this money man to, you know, take anyway. And she gives birth to her daughter.

Right.

Or whatever.

But 69.

Yeah, but you have to pay attention to the details to understand when this is set. This is the late 60s in the small community of Watertown, New York. So it's, it's meant to be a, you know, what they call a. A bedroom community.

People who live there have work somewhere else and.

Right.

You know, it's like industry. They go to work in the mine or the factory or something like that.

Right.

Stella's jobs at the bar. Because when everyone comes home, they've got to go somewhere to.

Right. You know, well, and she went to school for bartending too, because women, women barten. Very rare back then.

Right.

They're having these conversations about what's going to happen. And of course, the first thing that Stella, played by Bet, says to Steven, who happens to be played by Stephen Collins is shouldn't this be a we?

What are we going to do?

Because, yeah, because he's. Yeah, he said, what, what are you going to do? Shouldn't this be a we? Uh huh.

But like he couldn't get a word in edgewise with her character though sometimes.

Yeah, he meant well. He offers money, she turns it down, she decides to have the child.

But those are those character moments that are so important to this modernizing of the Stella Dallas story. Because part of the conversation is her and her best friend that we'll talk about in a bit.

But she's in the bar after she's learned she's pregnant and, and she's talking about now she's got all these choices to make. Does she have an abortion? Does she have it? Does she have it and give it up for adoption or does she keep it?

And so of course we learn she chooses to keep it.

But continuing on with the, the structure, the, the parts of the story here, the inciting incident occurs that when Stella realizes the growing gap between her world and the privileged future Jenny could have through her father's doctor, Mr. Stephen Dallas, the doctor is when she knows her love may not be enough to shield Jenny from class barriers. Because throughout the course of the story there are interactions between the daughter, Jenny, her classmates and the parents of her classmate.

And we'll talk about that in a bit because it involves some cameos. But you know, this recognition sets the stage for Stella's ultimate dilemma. How far will she go to ensure her daughter's happiness around.

Around age three? Well, no, well, age three, five.

Somewhere in there he actually comes and like wants to meet her and be a part of, of, of his daughter's life, which I think is pretty awesome. But. Okay. I expected this to be one of those things where.

Because I saw this a long time ago and didn't even remember it, thought that it was a different actress and just. Anyway, but he wants to be part of her life. I actually thought that she was going to give her daughter up to him much earlier.

Okay.

But she actually, you know, they, but she lets her go visit him and be part of his life and you know, they're. And, and I thought that was really good. It was great that he wanted to be part of her life and, and to.

Whereas I thought that, you know, he just bugger off and you know, she'd raise her and then later on they'd be like, oh, go ahead.

I mean, I, I was actually surprised by how, how long it was until that which is the main part of this is that she gives her up, you know, and, and doesn't become a part of her life. But later on I was, I was really surprised by this, but wow.

Yeah, the scenes about that you were just talking about, you know, about the, how she has to shield her from class barriers and embarrasses her. Like that whole scene in Florida and all that, that was just crazy. Crazy girl. Yeah.

The lengths that she'll go to to ensure her daughter's happiness. He offers to give money and she turns him down. Now the one important thing that should be it as well is yes, we have set the set.

You know, we've established the setting of the story. This is Watertown, New York. This is a rural northern New York town that is all about industry. You've got a job at the factory or whatever.

Now what, pray tell, would be the reason that a man who's from the city will learn in a bit is passing through town? Why he is a medical student and he's actually in residence, as they call it. He's, he's studying to finish his degree, being a doctor.

And he has a, a local practice that he is participating in. He's a kidney specialist.

So, you know, he's, he's wowing the lady behind the bar by telling him that he's a medical student and that's what's brought him to this neck of the woods.

Yeah. And I, I love how like he's all like, yes, I'm a doctor. Here, have my quarter for a beer. I was like, a quarter for a beer?

Golly, that was a long time ago. But she's all like dancing on the bar and then it's just like, it sets the scene.

It's so terrific though, because that is something that Bette Midler would have done in the early days of her career.

Absolutely.

Some sort of little burlesque type of number. And we'll talk more about it later. But her co star that plays her friend in the bar, someone that Bette knew from the earlier days of her career.

Right. And I love how when they're like, oh, what are you gonna do? Do you need any money? And she's all like, no, I have $2,000 saved up.

And I'm like, oh, really?

Is that to pay your gas bill?

Right. But back then, I guess that was probably more. But she couldn't even afford some paint for that apartment. Oh my goodness.

More importantly, it should be noted also because we're both students of, you know, women's studies here. In the year that this story took place in, Stella could not even have her own bank account or credit card.

Right.

You know, yeah, she. Why was she turning down money from the father of her child?

Well, I know, and the thing is, is that it really seems psychologically that they were setting it up, that she was turning it down because she didn't want the help.

And I'm like, I understand that if you want to be strong and not be beholden to somebody who's just gonna, you get the feeling of charity or whatever.

And, and I suppose when the movie was made and looking at the era that it was made in, it supposed to establish that she was a strong, independent woman and she wasn't gonna blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, girl, you have a kid, let. He was the one, it's half his kid, let him pay the money.

And even though it was frustrating, I think it was supposed to make her seem stronger towards maybe in our time now it's kind of like, girl, what the hell are you doing? I don't know.

Matt, we've talked a little bit about the story and the characters. Let us in on the, the, the dirty here, the, the little breadcrumbs, the details.

What was the person behind the camera that updated this story that had been made twice and we made it suitable for a modern audience? The director.

He began actually with small acting roles and then moved behind the camera directing episodes of such things as. You probably haven't heard of this, but it was called Star Trek. And then the Outer limits. Marcus Welby, MD.

And then he began being at the helm of major television shows and miniseries, including Roots. Can you believe that? I mean, that is major because he won a Director Guild of America award for that.

I mean, that has a Star Trek connection too. LeVar Burton.

Absolutely.

Roots.

Yeah. And the Emmy Award winning who Will Love My Children?

Was.

Was that the spin off Stella?

Was that the spin off of All My Children?

I don't think so. I think it was Stella anyway. But he also directed Stella, which was another. Actually one of his very well known films for him.

Now in his personal life, he was actually born in Chicago, moved to LA when he was young and then Attended Beverly Hills High School with Brenda and Dylan and. And then he went to UCLA before getting into the entertainment industry, as you do when you're down that way.

And he actually had a long term partnership of 42 years with his husband Richard Blair. And then he died in New York City at the age of 85 after a brief illness. So he was family.

Well, there's a little something about John Ehrman that we didn't mention. I'll just throw out there.

In the 90s, he also did part of the miniseries for CBS that was a, a TV presentation of the sequel to Gone with the Wind done by Alexander Ripley.

Dear goodness. I actually watched that.

Oh, we covered that on a past episode of Matinee Minutia. Yes, I think, I think Mr. John Ehrman was the man behind the camera. And so. All right, now we get into the, the meat and potatoes of the story.

And she's an award winning singer, actress and comedian and all around important icon in the G. She's also been a producer whose career spans more than five decades.

And she rose to fame in the early 70s with her bold stage Persona, powerhouse vocals and vibrant performances earning her the nickname the Divine Ms. M. Now of course, the early days of her career she has attributed to the gay community because when she was struggling to get people to watch her perform, she would book gigs like the Entertainment at the Bath House. So that's how she got her start.

Back with Barry Manilow when he wasn't.

Even publicly at those bath houses.

Wow.

Matt Midler has released multiple hit albums starring in iconic films such as the Rose, which did. The Rose was based on the life of Janice Joplin and no. And Beaches with Barbara Hershey, of course. And everyone knows Hocus Pocus at Halloween.

Time there's I put a spell on you.

She certainly did.

Yeah.

Her run of famous films includes the First Wives Club, which sadly starred the recently lost Diane Keaton. But these films won Grammys, Golden Globes, Emmys and Tony awards. That means Ms. Bette Midler is an egot.

And off stage she's known for her philanthropy. That means that she spreads her money and invests in important causes and environmental activism.

And of course, she's known for her sharp wit and long lasting marriage to artist Martin Von Hasselberg. Oh, goodness. Well, of course, no discussion of Bette Midler would be complete without highlights of her most famous films.

Her top 35 films to date from 66 to present day. Of course, Hocus Pocus is right up there at the top where she played Winifred Sanderson, a. A woman who was sundered by the time she lived in.

She Was a witch, don't you? And she turned the film into a Halloween classic. It didn't do good at the box office, but after it went to home video, people just ate it up.

Absolutely. It is a. A complete classic, sister. Yes.

The only time I can tolerate Jessica Parker.

And then of course, the 90s came and we had films that taught us about strong women and their roles in history. And these women, they'd all been done wrong because their man found love with a younger woman most of the time.

The first wives Club in 936 had Bette Midler, Diane Keaton and Goldie Hawn.

Yeah. Not to mention Maggie Smith and so many other strong, wonderful women.

And Stalker Channing was in the very beginning of that movie. She was the friend who they all lost to dark things going on in her life.

She was sort of the driving for force of what brought these women back together. And they decided to do something in her name at the end there. So if you haven't caught First Wives Club, what are you doing listening to our show?

Stop right away and go watch that before you continue on. Otherwise I'll trip you in the street if I know who you are. So those are the top three.

But now in with the rest of the the goodies in the handbag, if you will, is the rose from 70. And as I was saying, this was based on the life's true life story of Janis Joplin. Now the story is her break.

This was Bette Midler's breakout performance and earned widespread acclaim and award nominations. This is the movie the Rose that got Bette Midler recognized as an artist, as a performer, as an actor.

It got her name in people's conversations in Hollywood. Then ago.

Matt, of all those films that I've mentioned with Bette Midler in there. Now we're gonna. We're gonna compare our bet cards, our betty cards there. How many divine miss M's do you have in your deck?

Out of 35 films I have seen 15. And my favorites, of course, are Hocus Pocus, Ruthless People and Outrageous Fortune.

Now is Outrageous Fortune, the one she was in with Shelley Long?

Yes. And apparently they did not get along during that film. They did not like each other. But let me tell you, it was still a really good film.

And my mom and I watched it over and over and over, but I.

Haven'T seen quite as many. I've seen 14, and I have some movies that are on my to watch lists I haven't gotten to yet. Like I want to see Isn't She Lovely?

Where she's in it with Nathan Lane as her husband and she's a romance novelist and she's supposedly sort of a Jacqueline Suzanne type character. A romance novelist. I want to see that. But my favorites include. Because chemistry is such an important thing with a cast.

One of my favorites is Big Business because that was Lily Tomlin in that.

But in the 90s, my favorite was First Wives Club because Compass Near North, Diane Keaton, Goldie Hawn, Bette Midler and Stockard Channing starts the show.

Yeah, for some reason I. I forgot to put that in my favorites because that really is for me, one of those movies that I will probably about once a year I will watch because. Because it's such a wonderful film. It was a brilliant film. Oh, she's not.

Alrighty. Well, those are our BET cards. Now here, going back to the story here, moving into the second act, if you will, the meat and the sandwich.

So Stella faces as she raises her daughter Jenny all by herself. Externally, she struggles against financial hardship, social judgment, and the disapproval of Steven's wealthy circle.

Internally, Stella battles insecurity. Her brashness and working class mannerisms make her fear she'll hold Jenny back from opportunities. And that in part is where we get an incident.

And you can tell me if I'm getting ahead of myself. But there's an incident where Stella meets up with Jenny's friends from school. And of course, Stella doesn't mean any harm by it.

She's just enjoying herself and, well, discussing the differences between the stories.

And in the 37 version they basically go somewhere that they can play tennis or something like that on the weekend. Weekend. And the mom is just really tackily dressed up and goes out and she runs into some of her friends.

Maybe haven't seen them with. Are we talking about the Florida trip?

Yes.

Okay. Stella.

Poor Stella, who is obviously from a very different time because now we're actually in like the 80s and where they talk about the Madonna video and she's. And Jenny is much more. Yeah. And. And I mean she's 16 and 16 and 17 and she could have been like 20 because.

Or, or older because she's got a good head on her shoulders too. Although emotionally she's needs to grow up. But they're with their. She's with her friends, with her rich friends.

And Stella from the different time period. Everybody else is all. And this is a very visual thing that I think that he did is. Everybody else is in muted colors. They're in khakis, whites.

Very, very low. Low. What. What's the word?

I was thinking there's like. They're. They're dressed for the beach, basically.

Well, yes, but they, they are, but they're also the cut. Their colors are very muted.

Okay.

But she comes down after she has been sick in bed for like three days. She comes down to the bar and she's in this like, I don't know, like a get up. Like she should be handing out show tickets. Gets.

Now to.

To be fair, I think that for fans of Bette Midler, they would probably recognize her appearance in that quote unquote get up as possibly Bette Midler's homage to Carmen Miranda. All she's missing is the fruit hat.

Fruit. Yeah.

There's somewhere in Florida, potentially Miami maybe. And she's wearing this bright sort of neon green outfit.

Exactly. That's a different. That's why everybody else is very muted colors and she is very vibrant and the color stands out.

And her, she's drinking and she's making a spectacle of herself and she's having fun in her own world.

It's almost as if everyone else is being dressed by Martha Stewart. And Bette Midler has gone to Gloria Stefan's wardrobe.

Right, exactly. I mean, and it's. It just shows that. How she didn't stand. How she stood out.

Not even understanding that people were looking at her and laughing, which she needed to go to a different place because I think she would be more fun to hang out with than those other people who. But that's when Jenny gets really embarrassed by her and like, starts to kind of pull away and have attitude to her.

But I think that we really need to step back into one thing that hasn't been brought up yet is that the other, like, main character. One of the main characters in this is John Goodman.

Yes.

And John Goodman is the. Originally owns the bar that she works at. And he's a good guy, but he drinks a little bit.

And then after he loses the bar and things kind of change and they move on, that he ends up becoming a drunk and like a really messed up, like, awful stinking drunk. Like the guy you don't want to have around, especially around your kids. And Jenny hates him.

And keep this under your hat for a moment, but remind me of Ed and being the stinking drunk because I have a theory on why he might have. Have gotten that way. But yeah, back to Jenny growing up.

And so, yeah, Ed's character, he ends up having a night where he. He and Stella go out. That. And this guy hits on Stella and Stella just tells him no.

And see, this is another of that toxic masculinity of those days where the guys are like, you told me. No, I am gonna. I mean, he was ready to hit her.

Yeah.

And he started to hit her. And John Goodman's character Ed steps in, stops him. And then who do they end up arresting?

Not the guys that were causing any of the problems, but they end up arresting Stella and Ed for standing up for themselves. And of course, who sees them but the head of the school PTA board or whatever. She was one of our classics, who we absolutely adore.

We talk about on the show all the time.

Eileen Brennan, she plays Mrs. Wilkerson.

Yes. And she does not like Stella because Stella is such low class. Oh, my dear.

Anyway, she sees her getting arrested and the next thing she's on that phone tree and telling all the parents and this beautiful party, 16, for her 16th birthday that they have set up for Jenny. And the party is wonderful and everything's perfect for her and none of the kids come and some of the kids moon her.

Which I was like, okay, but because. Because Mrs. Wilkerson has told all the parents that they can't let their kids go when to that house of ill repute, basically.

So I think that's another part that, that's really telling, informing of, of their story.

And coincidentally at the time, Jenny, the daughter was interested in Mrs. Wilkerson's son Tim, that was her classmate. That was part of that.

But Bette Midler being Bette Midler had such a terrific retort in the scene between eileen Brennan as Mrs. Wilkerson and Stella, played by Bette Midler. They're out side after the PTA meeting, having an exchange.

And Eileen Brennan's character is very much a busybody and she's saying nasty things to her under her breath. She's looking down at her under her nose. And what did Bette Midler turn the conversation around with Matt?

She started talking about Mrs. Wilkerson's husband.

I, I don't remember the exact quote, but I think. Didn't she say something like you, you dress like you haven't been laid in.

I think she says, you know what I think there you go. I think that your legs have been together longer than the Lennon Sisters. She says, your husband.

Yeah, that your, your skinny husband was giving me the hot eye all night. I think you haven't been laid in years.

That's right. Yeah.

That was just the.

Let her have it.

That must have been. Yeah, she let her have it. That's almost. She had it coming, right?

Yeah, but I, I don't know for sure, but if there was any moment that Medler had any input in the script, I would think that that moment between her and Mrs. Wilkerson would have been pure Bette Midler ad lib.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. That, that was priceless. But I think that, I think that that moment was really defining.

The party was really good, but they moved past it and then Jenny went back to school and everything seemed fine. They never really followed up with anything like that.

But I think throughout the whole script, Ed was such a part of showing up and going from somebody who is very supportive and loving and wanting to be with Stella to somebody who is so destructive and, and, and driving Jenny away.

Yeah, that.

That's the main part of the dynamic of the relationship is Stella is not with Jenny's father and the really the only man that's around in her life is her friend Ed, who basically ran the bar that she had the job at. But of course her daughter isn't going to care for his company. Now through what we've said alone is a testimony to the type of character of the.

But in the 37 version, she walks in on Jenny trying on her Sweet 16 dress and she's in her underwear, even. Even though it's quite Victorian, it's not even a separate bra and underwear set. It's all one piece. It's basically a slip.

But now Ed is a creepy old perv because now he's looking at a minor in a state of undress. He's of questionable morals now, and suddenly the daughter's distaste for him. That means more in the 37 version to me.

Right?

She has a boyfriend played by Ben.

Stiller, who was quite cute at the time, but man, would it. His character was horrible.

Yes. And Stella Bette Midler knew all about his type of guy. As she said, his brains were all behind his zipper.

There's nothing else good to be said for him. But Jenny was making bad decisions. And at one point, she and her mom have a fight and she's sitting on the couch. Jenny's sitting on the couch.

This is where I catch you and I. I normally need to inform the scene, but you remember when Stella and Jenny had a fight in the living room?

Oh, yeah.

What does she say? Do you remember what she said to Stella that was so telling? When her mom says that, I'm a. I'm a grown woman, I could make my own choices.

And the daughter says, of course you choose to be a fool.

Right?

But what does she say to her, that's so telling. Sometimes, I don't know.

Tell me sometimes.

I'll fill in. I'll give you the. The sentence and you can fill in the blanks. Sometimes what hurt? You're looking at something to fix your hair.

Sometimes mirrors hurt.

Oh, that's true. She did say. It's funny because I kind of glanced. I glossed over it when I was watching it. But yeah, that was a really poignant moment.

I. I think that the whole thing about Jenny making poor choices and bet that saying that she was making poor choices was true in the way that she was dating a total jackass. But at the same time, it's also a testament to Stella raising her right. And that Jenny is actually not making completely bad choices.

Because when the boyfriend there, Mr. Stiller, tries to go to hit a home run in his car, Jenny, he just says, no, it ain't happening. And, yeah, she gets kicked out of the car.

And of course, her mom is wondering if something happened. Because when, when you're so close, personality wise, right, you're gonna question, did this person make the right choice or not?

And of course, Jenny comes home and says, yes, I did. Because they're fighting. She wants to. To hurt her mother. And she says, yes, yes, I did. And it's like, no, you didn't, girl. Come on.

But I loved the scene that followed at the airport.

Oh, yes, we'll get to that.

But more importantly, when we've been watching this whole thing and we're wondering what kind of life Stella had before she had Jenny on one of her dates with the doctor, she talks about her taste in men, and it's alluded to that she hasn't been lucky in love up to this point. And she goes through her pictures and there's one man there who she says is what? Matt, the gorgeous pig?

Yes, with quite the name. But yeah, that was funny. She's like, oh, he was gorgeous. He was a gorgeous pig.

So that. That was her version of Ben Stiller in her day, I guess.

Yeah, yeah.

But now we're talking about after the fight when they. The side that they need to make up. Jenny is on the way to go see her dad. And how.

Well, yeah, because that basically threw her out. She's like, just get out, get out. And she goes to the airport and she's gonna fly to see your dad.

And she's about to get on the plane and here comes Bet with a very expensive sweater, which was very sweet. And she's just like, I love you, I love you. And that's. That's. Yeah. You know, and Stella was.

For all her faults and goodness was there a lot of faults. She was a wonderful. She. She loved her daughter. And she. She just. She was a good mother. She made some bad choices. She should have taken the money.

But she was a really good mother.

I mean, eventually there would have been a thing called child support, and she still would have been getting the money from the dad.

Right.

But I guess maybe it was different in those days, early days of Jenny's childhood, because if a woman couldn't have her own bank account, she probably couldn't ask for child support yet.

Yeah.

When she gave. Gave birth or when she got pregnant. She may. Probably gave birth in 70, which was about the same as my mom and me. Oh.

And she and my mom divorced my father at. After three years, I think, officially. And they. And she. She got. She was awarded $50 a month. Yeah. Right. Well, now we go. Pull.

But back then it was like, whoa. But it was okay.

You would have gotten gas and groceries for a week anyway.

Right. But there was something. But Stella, like I said, the money thing. She should have taken the money. If nothing else for the daughter.

But I also understand that stubborn part of. Look, if you're not gonna be a part of her life, I don't want to.

So I don't know if we mentioned these things. Anyways, I'm just going to read them. The midpoint shifts when Stella sees Jenny thriving in high society under Steven's influence.

After the incident where she's made a scene on their vacation there, the stakes escalate.

Stella must confront the possibility that her presence in Jenny's life may hinder her daughter's chance at success, ergo, choosing to present opportunities. It's a painful turning point that transforms the conflict from survival to self sacrifice.

After the incident in Florida, Stella decides to go meet Steven's new love, Janice. Because Jenny has met her dad's new love, and she's a woman who has a beautiful house and she's got a kid and she's got a very important job.

And we'll talk about that in a minute.

But. Well. And her husband left her. Her first husband died and left her a lot of money too.

Right. But she was. She was an important person. She had an education and she had money.

But now that Jenny has the opportunity to have nice things vis a vis the new woman in Steven's life.

Life, Stella goes to visit Janice at her place of work because she wants Jenny to think that it was Janice and Steven's idea that Jenny should go to live with them. And. Okay, this is where we need to talk about some of the supporting cast, because who played the medical daddy's future bride? Janice.

Was it Marcia Mason? Yes, from the Goodbye Girl.

Exactly. And early on in Matt Name Minutia's run, she was in a movie in the 80s called Max Dugan Returns.

Oh, my dear goodness.

With Jason Robards and Matthew Broderick when he was still a teenager.

I think I was on that episode too.

And Donald Sutherland. Marcia Mason has a special place in my heart. And the fact that she is dad's new love interest in this movie.

You couldn't have had a stronger cameo part because here Stella is a working class woman who grew up being the butt of people's jokes.

The fact that she was a lady bartender and now her man that got away there, Stephen, he's shacking up with this lady who's not only got money, but what does she do for a living, Matt? She's. She's an important person. She calls.

Yeah, she's head of a. Of a book publisher.

Yes.

And so which is actually, for that time, very rare that a woman would be in that role as well.

Exactly. In.

In their own way, the love interest of the father was a very powerful woman, sort of a Jackie Onassis, because Jackie Onassis had been in the publishing business in that period of her life. Marsha Mason is this woman who has her future daughter, stepdaughter's mom, come in.

Never have met before, but Stella is all concerned that her child has been mixed up, that she's gonna have opportunities that she can't give her, and she wants to set the path. Right, But.

And also another motivating factor is because of that, but also because Jenny is hopelessly in love with this little rich boy who actually wants to go into education, which is very rare for the rich to do, but they're so in love. And after the embarrassment, I think that was another factor that made her go and see Marcia Mason's character, Janice. Yeah.

But here Stella is somebody who has had to be the. The butt of people's jokes as a lady bartender.

And she goes to this place to meet her ex's new lady, and she thinks that she's possibly just some woman who works there, but she goes and finds her and she's seated down in her office in a room that's decorated like Laura. More importantly, what one thing happened in that scene even before the two women Got to talk.

Talk that told you that Marsha Mason's character was calling the shots. She offered Bette Midler coffee. Did she get it herself, Matt?

Oh, no. She called in her assistant.

She the phone and asked for someone else to get it.

Yep. And not only that, but she, she, bet started to sit in the chair and she's like, oh no, we'll be more comfortable over here.

Like she was in control the entire time. She never flinched. She never, she. You never saw her feel the least bit intimidated by Bet by meeting her Stella.

And that was, that was a really powerful scene. Yeah. And I mean that was supposed to be a harder, harder scene, but there was a little bit of wonky dialogue.

She was trying to propose to Janice that they let Jenny come live with her. But she's also trying to make it seem like it's for everyone's best.

Right? Well, she starts out with trying to what if I don't want her anymore? What if I'm done with her?

And Marcia, Janice saw right through that and she was like, how about you get to the point and tell me the truth, girl? Basically. And finally she, she, she kind of did.

I don't know that Bette Midler did any commercials per se. Although Jenny, her daughter, did work for McDonald's. Maybe that'll be our intermission connection there.

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Okay, we are back.

Yeah.

Oh, but of course it's.

It's really wonderful because the scene that originated from the 37 version does carry over when Janice, played by Marsha Mason, says to Stella after having only just met her, of course, that she's heard so much about her. And she says that she didn't get all of her best traits from her father.

Right, exactly.

Because she was a mother too. And so she's trying to come across as, we're women, we have this in common.

Yeah. And that's another thing is Jenny would not be as strong of a person as she was had she been raised in her father's world with.

She would have been trained to be much more of a little. And much more meek and subservient at that time.

Which is another reason that Janice is such a wonderful character is because she was in that world and she is not like that. She would not take. You could tell she is not the type to take anything from anybody.

And that, that's actually pointed out by Stella in that brief scene. She says to Janice, she's like, okay, but you got out. Do you have family? Do you have siblings? I see you got out. They didn't.

Right. Yeah.

She knows that she's the lucky one.

Yeah. Because she was. She was. Because Janice is self made too, huh? Yeah. Well, she may have been self made with a rich husband, but she, she.

She earned her place. Yeah.

Yeah. The rising action builds as Jenny grows closer to her father's world vis a vis nice things.

Janice is providing an opportunity for her to have some stability in her life. She knows people who are educated. In fact, Janice was partly responsible for Jenny meeting her future spouse.

And this leaves Stella to question whether love means holding on tightly or letting go completely. Because as the old saying goes, if you love someone, set them free.

Yeah. But I, I still think that it.

Watching the end, like, even watching the end end, it was just like, girl, you can let her go, live with her and, and be part of that world and everything and you can see can still at least be a little bit part of it. I mean, come on, there's a point where you're. You, you did this to yourself in a way. And that's why. Yes, the. It's.

I know it's supposed to leave us with the. She sacrificed being a part of her life because she loved her so much and. But I'm like, girl, you could.

Come on, you could get a dress and go to the wedding. What the hell?

I Mean, this is the part of the movie where it's clear that the story is a remake because modern storytelling doesn't end on sort of that cliff. You know what, what happened after the wedding? Did the mom go and see the family during the reception?

No, she just walks off into the sunset and the credits roll. We don't do that as much anymore because we know everything.

Right, well, that's true. But also it's kind of like, okay, she walks off and. And Jenny lives a happy life never seeing or her mother again or blah, blah, blah.

And I just like, okay, you guys need therapy. Yeah, it's.

It's what we would call an all or nothing situation. Stella is a strong, independent woman and. And she either wants to be responsible for the happiness or she wants no part of it because.

Right. And. And I think that's just obviously in this, our modern world. I don't know. But I. I think that. I don't know.

I don't even know what I think because part of me just wanted to slap her and say, snap out of it.

I mean, there was a missed opportunity to have Cher being one of the other women at the bar because she could have put some sense into her. Maybe.

Yeah. See, her best friend at the bar needed to be Cher and not. Who is he? What's it?

Linda Hart, I believe.

Yeah.

We might as well rip off the Band Aid. Linda Hart, who played the best friend in the bar. Debbie, was actually somebody who performed with Bette Midler in her earlier days.

In the 70s she was one of Bette Midler's backup singers. And that band was called the Harley.

Yeah.

She didn't have to follow the. The rumor mill too hard to find her paycheck. I guess a lot of people have reputations for getting jobs for their friends, which, you know.

Absolutely. And if it works, it works. I mean, yeah, you can always say nepotism, but hey, if you got the talent, you gotta fill the role. But it wasn't nepotism.

Who are our co star who we're going to talk about.

Yeah.

Here. So, Mr. John Goodman. Did you know. Yes. That originally they wanted John Candy to play Ed and the producers wanted that.

But then he found out that Bette Midler, little upstart that she was at the time. Right. Doing always an arachnophobia. And then which. And arachnophobia was released five months after Stella.

He was doing four to five different major projects all at the same time.

And to blow your mind, John Goodman was only in his late 30s at the time.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's a busy man. Yes. And he was. And I think the reason is. Is because he was good. He was really talented. He.

Here, you're gonna be a big drunk, and. Oh, yeah. And you're gonna. You're gonna love her. You're gonna want to be with her, but, man, don't get too emotional about it, basically.

And he is basically very known for his versatility, his warmth, and he has a very commanding screen presence, which, I mean, is very telling, which is why. Another reason I feel he's kind of wasted in this role.

But he first, of course, gained fame as Dan Connor when he was on Roseanne, which he got Golden Globes for. And he has an extensive career, of course. Big Lebowski, Monsters, Inc. Oh, brother, where art Thou, Argo?

And, of course, more not recently, but not too long ago, was 10 Clover Lane, which was a weird movie. And basically, he. He's. He's done a lot of stuff with the Coen brothers. You can do comedy, you can do drama. And off screen, of course, he's not.

He was married to Annabeth Hartzog, which has. Well, anyway, he's also well known because he is an advocacy for recovery and mental health, which. He's made no bones about that.

He's had addiction issues. He's had depression issues and. And other things like that, and he's been very outspoken about them, which makes him even more awesome.

Anyway, he's been in over 90 feature films.

Dang.

And he has over 160 screen credits, which just shows you how popular he is. And of course, his top movies, Monsters, Inc. Now, of course, he only voiced Sully in that, but it was one of Pixar's most beloved characters ever.

The Big Lebowski, where he was Walter Sobchak, which.

Slavic.

Yeah. Which actually is still apparently one of his most iconic roles. Oh, brother. Were out there.

All my Johnny Cards. Well, I have not seen as many, but I have watched about eight.

And my favorites, I want to say, of course, include Always, which, in its defense, is a very similar character, minus the addiction Problems to Ed in Stella.

He.

He plays the. The well intentioned best friend. Pretty good. And another film of his that I just find stands out.

And it's probably the timing because it occurred while he was still in the original run of Roseanne.

He did a movie in the 90s called King Ralph and it was almost a spoof on pop culture in that the whole crux of the story takes place when the British royal family assembles for a family portrait. And because it has rained recently, they're all electrocuted when the photographer takes the picture.

Now, now suddenly, how else is somebody going to inherit the throne unexpectedly, except for a freak accident? And, and it's found out that some family member, royal family member, had a tryst with John Goodman's character's like grandmother or something.

Now he's the heir of the royal bloodline and an American. Oh, shock. Is now the King of England.

It's just fun because in that film John Goodman plays a character very similar to Dan Connor on Roseanne, where he's a, he's a working class American who doesn't know British culture. And suddenly now he's the important guy who has to call the shots.

Right, yeah, that. I, I remember seeing that. And it was, I think it was. Actually, I liked the movie. It was fun. I mean, now, you know, go ahead.

Oh, just say it's, it's comedic. If, if you prefer something more heartwarming, I could understand that. Always, for example, is a favorite of mine. I've got a foot in both camps here.

I like John Goodman and these are the two buckets that I find him best in.

Well, I have actually seen 20 of his films. Oh, and that's not even including like his television credits and stuff.

How many of those were on eight millimeter, Mr. Chubb's gone wild?

Well, I don't. That's rude. I am a VHS boy. Thank you very much. All right, well, okay.

I may have watched a Beta once, but of course my favorites are Arachnophobia, Flintstones, Kong, Skull Island. But there was a bunch of them that I actually liked. But I'll tell you what wasn't high on my list was a film called Always.

But I mean, I understand why you like it and you know, it was a sweet film, but I just.

When we're looking back at films from the 80s and 90s now, realizing that people from the 80s and 90s were looking back at things from the 50s, 40s and 50s looking back, going, oh, that would never happen now. And we're looking at back at those movies now going, oh God, they need therapy and what the hell is wrong with these people? It right.

But I think Arachnophobia is one of those movies that is kind of an under, an understated. It's a really good film and it doesn't get the credit because it's from a long time ago. So. And he was the perfect Fred Flintstone.

As we round up the story and things come to a head here, this is the climax. This is when things got really good and you're, you're still in your seat because the credits haven't rolled yet.

Now the climax arrives when Stella makes the heartbreaking choice. Spoilers folks. If you get to this far in our discussion, maybe pause the copy that you're watching.

Finish watching the movie before you finish listening to this. But the climax arrives when Stella makes the decision to step aside. Jenny can marry into a life of wealth and opportunity.

Her connections with Janice and the well to do's has introduced her to a suitor that was worthy of her attention.

And watching the wedding from the outside, Stella hides in the shadows, sacrificing her place in Jenny's world to give her daughter the future she deserves. It's devastating yet deeply powerful moment.

Definitely it is a very devastating movie moment. It was crazy. Yeah. That was so sad.

Anyways, in the end, in both versions of the story, Stella has chosen to, to distance herself from Jenny, hoping that not being involved in her life would lead to opportunities. And in both versions, the mom is standing outside the window. In the first version, it's just outside the house where she's getting married at. At.

In the 90s she's at somewhere like Tavern on the Green, which is this famous hotel in New York City that's like a resort. And the window where the, the wedding chapel is is essentially like a showroom window that you would see in department stores.

She stopped there at the window and the security is telling her there's, there's no celebrities here today. This is just a big wedding. Let's give them their privacy.

And Stella says to him something that she actually has stated throughout the film that she can tell when somebody's happy because it's in their face. She says to the security guy, please, please let me stay I just gotta see her face. She wants to see her daughter. The bride's face.

And the security guard doesn't know this isn't just some crazy old woman who has a need to watch a wedding. It's her daughter.

Yeah. Yeah. And. And he lets her stay for. He's just. Okay, but one more minute. Yeah.

And it's raining, by the way, which is another big thing which stands in for crying in some movies. But anyway, in. In the resolution of this, of course, Stella accepts her solitude. And here's another thing, actually as.

Or saying this because she's now content in the knowledge that she's. Her sacrifice has secured Jenny's happiness. She married the. The guy that she was in love with.

And even though she loses the daily connection with her daughter, Stella finds dignity in her choice, which it. And the film closes with the bittersweet grace reminding us that true love often means selflessness. Girl, please. But. So. But her.

Jenny wants her in her life. She was calling her. So Stella's made up this whole thing about she.

I don't know, she and Ed are together and they move to Hawaii and so they can't find her, but they can't find her on any of the islands. She calls and she's trying to track her down. She can't fight her because this is before Google. And so it's like Jenny wants her in her life. And.

And Stella and Janice would be fine with her being in her life.

And so as much as this is supposed to make us think that, oh, she's so selfless and what a good mother she is to give up her being in her daughter's life so that she can have happiness.

In defense of the story writing, we've all lived through periods in our lives where our parents had it more difficult than us. Of course, we get told, don't cry about this or that, because I'll give you something to cry about. I lived through when times were harder.

And of course, who hasn't lived through a time frame where their parent or grandparents survived the Depression? And of course, now you need to eat everything that's on your plate because there are starving children in what other. Other country?

Yeah. Or, hey, I had to go overseas and fight Nazis and stuff. Now you have to. Oh, wait a minute.

Right.

So. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sella is torturing herself for providing things that she doesn't think she was capable of, but she was still part of. It's just she has problems with allowing other people to contribute, I guess.

Yeah. It's just it. Yeah. I Don't think that it has.

Maybe at the time this delivered that message of selflessness, but honestly, it just comes off not, not that way anyway. Stella's arc, Tell us about that.

Stella's arc, her journey through the story moves from a carefree working class woman to a mother defined by sacrifice. Because we're, we're all the sum of our experiences. And themes of class, motherhood and unconditional love linger long after the credits.

Stella delivers a timeless message that a parent's greatest gift may be the courage to let go.

Think of that what you will and we'll talk about how we think things, how we think, our perception of how things could and should be different or be changed on that. But yeah, letting go. And.

Well, I'll say this, obviously I am aware that this film is a remake of an older film and I'm the nerd that in school would read the book that the movie was based on just to be able to know the differences of how things changed.

Point of fact, if you enjoy the 90s movie Forrest Gump that some say resurrected Tom Hanks's career, you'll know that in the book, the mother played by Sally Fields in the movie was not as well meaning and good intentioned as the movie. She was basically told that your child is stupid and that he doesn't know any better.

And in a very Bette Midler way, the end of the film when the credits roll, she sings the only song that she performs in the entire soundtrack of the movie. And I had to look this up. The title of the song was One More Cheer.

Now, since Bette Midler is known to cover some standards outside of her own original songs like the Wind Beneath My Wings, I thought perhaps this is a song that has sort of an old timey feeling. This must be a cover of someone else's song. So I went to find out who performed this originally.

Come to find out, Bette Midler had that song specifically written for Stella. One More Cheer. Because it harkens back to the bar atmosphere. The idea of that we're going to have a toast to the good life.

And now that her daughter has been successfully married off and has found happiness, Stella can rest on her Laurels that she has done her job as a mother. And we all know that just because somebody has been married off, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily happily ever after.

Her job is not done until after the grandkids have gone to college or at least graduated. So, Matt, this is where we briefly talk about some of the other people in the cast there, right?

Oh, let's talk about some of the other cast. And. And I mean the other person who was like. I mean, pretty much the big main other character was Trini Alvarado. I hope I'm saying that. Right.

She was in Little Women.

But tell us.

She played meg.

It is like the, the Chamber of Commerce's films they want you to see to come to New England in the fall.

Right? Yeah, that. That was such. That was a really good. It also had like Eric Stolz in it. And it. That is a really good one.

And then actually I watched the, the, the remake, if you want to call it a remake, because there's been a ton of little. Yeah, but. But there was one from a few years ago. I watched that and it actually was very good as well. I've heard.

She was Goldie Hawn's boss in that movie. I love that movie as Captain Doreen Lewis. And of course she's Oscar, nominated. But of course she was in Murder by Death with.

Oh, what's his name that was in Vibes as the detective. And he also. Peter F. Yes, with Peter Falk. Murder by Death. Eileen Brennan was in that too. But some other up and comings from the 90s who played the.

The bad boy boyfriend, Matt.

Oh, that. Well, that would be Mr. Ben Stiller, who would eventually grow up to be quite an adorable man. And yes, and he had Ben Stiller show.

Do you remember that?

Vaguely.

And that had Janine Garofalo in it, who I adored her so much. Yes. But of course he's best known for Zoolander. And I'm like, he's been in so.

Many other films in the Meet the Parents movies.

Yes, I mean, I would like to.

Have Babs as my mom.

Yeah.

Regrettably, we, we do need to mention, although Stephen Collins was Commander Decker in Star Trek the Motion Picture, the Enterprise was supposed to be his ship because Kirk had taken a promotion and he wasn't flying anymore. Well, after Stella in the 90s, Stephen Collins was in a long running TV sitcom, which I'm sure was good.

I never caught it myself, but unfortunately in more recent years, Mr. Stephen Collins has found himself in a little bit of trouble through the MeToo movement, if you catch my drift. Maybe he was acting inappropriately with people of varying age groups. So we'll leave it at that.

Yes, let's leave it there. Right.

All right. We also did say the Star Trek connection. Stephen Collins and Ben Stiller was in that.

Yeah, well, let's not totally gloss over the Ben Stiller who was such a Star Trek fan that apparently he appeared briefly as a party guest in a Star Trek scene, but was never accredited. You have to. To dig to find him. Have you ever seen him?

No. Was it like Next genre or was it a movie?

I think it was in one of the Next Gen movies.

Oh.

But I'm sure it's out there that we could find it, but. Yeah, but he is a huge Trekkie. Yeah.

All right, now before we go on and talk about maybe other things you might enjoy, here's time to reflect on the story of Stella. Now, as I've said, I've been fortunate that I had both my parents in my life growing up. And Matt maybe not so much.

This is where we compare our notes on life. Did you see yourself in any of the characters?

Was there a reflection there where you saw similar qualities and maybe situations with the characters that were in your own life?

I would say both Stella and Jenny, I can see myself in, in, in those characters depending on. Because with Stella I can be very headstrong and, and dumb and not much now because I'm much more like, okay, grow up.

Listen, but when I was younger I was just like, like bullheaded and, but, and then Jenny the same way, just like growing up seeing. Yeah.

Anyway, on the note of Stella, there's no truth to that rumor that you will refuse money for things.

No, I will. And that's the thing is I, I went through worse than they did. I went through being homeless and stuff like that and having to learn to.

But yeah, no, give me, give me. Oh, you want to give me a thousand bucks? Okay.

Right. But I think I don't. I didn't see myself in the main characters as much. I.

Maybe without the addiction part, I felt like growing up, I might have been more of the Ed character by John Goodman as the best friend there.

There are a lot of stories, and I want to say that this is almost a trope that plus size men get put into is that they are the good guy, they're the guy who doesn't. Nice guys finish last, as I think. I think is what they say so.

Well, I think. Yeah, go ahead.

I feel like I could possibly have related with the Ed character because I didn't get the girl or I didn't win in that regard, but I would. I would like to think that if I could have been more like one of the characters, that I would have wanted to have been more like Jenny.

I would want to have had the brass cajones to have said, I'm doing this. I'm a grown up and I can live my life.

But of course, unfortunately, my circumstance was I was living in the haystack and yeah, and I had conservative family members there. I couldn't live my truth in those days.

But yeah, I have always. Throughout my life, I always aspired to be Janice, but that would take focus.

And a dead husband.

Yeah, exactly. I never got one of those. But from what you were talking about, though, and this is true, this is. This is true in that. In.

In real life as well, that speaking as a person of size, we're not always like John Goodman's character. They never looked at him as a romantic partner, although she did kind of mess around with him at the end.

But they were always put in the best friend role. They were always there to pick up the pieces.

They were always there to lean on and to save them and basically be a surrogate partner or husband, but never good enough to actually marry because they weren't attracted to them. And. And I think a lot of people, regardless of weight or whatever, have been through that.

They're always put in this best friend role, which is really having to be a surrogate husband but without having that love connection. Huh? And for some, that's great. For me that's fine. But for some people, that. That hurts to be friendsome like that. Huh?

And that actually brings us to the. The next discussion, which is if this movie were remade today, which now it actually is like 35 years ago that this movie came out.

If you don't feel old yet, people think about how long ago your favorite movie was made. So if this movie were remade today, what would be changed? And if you'll be bold, I'll actually go first, because you touched on it right there.

But I don't think Stella could be a bartender in today's day and age and maybe live the life that she did.

I mean, maybe it's still possible in a small town, but if we want to appeal to a modern audience, I would think that maybe she would be like a barista, somebody that worked at a coffee shop where she would have opportunities to meet people from different social backgrounds.

Certainly a medical student might go into a coffee shop if it's nearby the campus or the, the doctor practice that they're studying at, or what do they call it? Residencing residency or a resident at.

But aside from maybe Stella being a barista, I would have the story go in the direction that Ed was still a best friend. They were longtime friends. But in this. In my version, the. The modern version, I think that Stella would stay with Ed and he would clean himself.

Himself up. He would actually get sober.

Yeah, he. He. I think that the character would. Would try to do better. Yeah, I could. I could definitely see that.

And, yeah, the barista, I don't know, but there needs to be an element of, of, like, she'd be a cleaning lady or something, or work at a.

Hospital, maybe as a cafeteria employee or something.

Yeah, that, that. Oh, that. That would be good, because that would explain why he would meet her and see her on a daily basis as well.

But one thing I, I, I did just popped into my head that when if this were remade today, she wouldn't have said, ed, I'm pregnant, and light up a cigarette and start puffing away, right? Like, oh, girl. And she smoked, like, practically through pregnancy.

And of course, when her water broke, she's at the movies and they're carrying her out and everything. I'm like, oh, my stars. But, yeah, the whole cigarette, like, every five seconds with that. But it was very much that that time.

She would have had a vaping stick instead.

Right? She been like, ed, I'm pregnant. Huff, puff, pass.

But yes, I will also think that Stella would not have severed ties with her daughter. And while she may not have been in the front row at the wedding because maybe she has issues of. About dressing up and fitting in.

She would have somehow been at the wedding. Like, maybe she would have been late for the service, but she was. She got there for the reception sort of a thing.

Yeah, I. Yeah. And I also think that. Oh, gosh, it just left my head. The. I think it would have happened sooner. Yeah.

Because I think that she would have made her daughter, like, seen that it was better for her to be in with somebody who could take. Provide for her more. So I think that would have happened more.

More maybe around the age of 11, 10 or 11, rather than 16 or 17, when you're pretty much already an adult or getting there anyway.

And maybe Janice gave Jenny the talk.

Right. And. And also. Yeah. And then I think there would.

If it were now, there would need to be a scene where instead of when Jenny attacked her for being there, it would be more like she attacked her for being. And.

And like after being with the others for on and off, like not wanting to go see your mother and being like, you're low class and you're having this moment where she just attacked her for being everything that she was embarrassed about. And then, then Stella would pull away and that would give more of a reason why she wouldn't want to be.

She wants to see her married, but she would try not to be a part of her life.

An updated version would have the daughter be the cause of the separation, probably more than the mother.

Right.

And they would still have to make amends before the story ends, but it would be the daughter's decision that they. They parted.

Right. Yeah.

That makes more sense to me too. Yeah.

Yes.

If you could change the ending, I sort of said how I would do it, but let's have a go at this. What would you do differently with the ending where she was distanced and she just shows up to the wedding to see that her daughter is happy?

Yeah. I think that modern. We would want more of a reconciliation after she distanced herself for. After the big fight.

And then she distanced herself for like, I don't know, several years or whatever, and then got an invitation to the wedding or whatever. I think that if she was standing outside the window, I think at the end of it, the. The daughter would have seen her and had.

And smiled or had some moment where you could see that there was a chance for them to have a positive relationship after not necessarily go into the whole hugging and kissing and like, I'm so sorry and all that, but that moment where you could see that they though they'll Be okay. And I think that would be more of something that we would want to see now to. Whereas back then, we were all ready, like, oh, tragic ending in Manka.

Oh, yeah, it's so sad. She's such a wonderful woman. Now it would be like. Like, come on, people.

Yeah. Anyway, there. There. There are some things in the original 37 version that I think needed to be included.

But vis a vis the repairing the relationship between mother and daughter after the wedding, they could have had a moment where maybe they are on the phone or something. I. I could see Stella living in the guest house at Janice's mansion or whatever it is. That would be its own story. But in the.

In the 37 Barbara Stanwook version, there are scenes where we don't do this in modern film, but people are writing letters to each other.

Right.

And they sh. To save time in the film, instead of carrying out a scene or a sequence of scenes, they show the letter being written between the two characters.

And that tells you why this next thing is happening. In the original, when the mother and daughter are.

Are distanced, you could see in the letter that Stella was pretending to go off and marry Ed and they were moving away for his job.

Right.

So it's hard to say how that would be done. I think in the 90s, they sometimes showed texting or emailing, like in you've Got Mail. Right.

I should watch that again at some point. But, yeah, and I. Yeah, yeah, but.

But all in all, I think that the two things that I enjoyed most about Tibette Midler's performance as Stella in this movie were. Well, not only when she told the PTA lady that her husband was giving her the eye.

All right, well, and that's. That's another thing too, is that if the movie were made now, nobody would really think twice about her being a single mother.

Right.

And then of course, she gets married. And I'm like, oh, of course that's a disappointment.

But, yeah, when Stella tells the PTA lady that her husband was giving her the hot eye, but also when they made up for the fight, Jenny and her mother at the airport, she says this terrific thing that makes you think she's seen so many movies when everybody in the airport is watching them have their tearful reunion. Oh, yeah, she's like, show's over, everybody. The monkey died.

Right. I was like, I don't understand that. That's kind of weird.

And then I'm trying to think of what the last part was. Bette Midler. Well, Carmen Miranda. Her homage to Carmen Miranda when the. In Florida, I think, was definitely a.

A Bette Midler twist on the story, because certainly that's somebody that Bet Midler might have dressed up as to perform. But I. I want to say that that scene in Florida, she had been on her. Her sick bed. She had had a cold and whatnot.

But I think that that scene is also informed by, I think, the opinion that she acted the way that she did because she was hopped up on cold medication.

Yeah, I. I think that that, that is. That would be. Especially back then. I mean, now you need an ID just to buy cold medication.

But back then, I mean, you probably had stuff that was like, just full of the, you know, Dean and all that.

Stuff. Stuff.

Right. Which.

Right.

It worked. I'm sorry. Regardless of what anyone thinks about it, it actually worked. You took a spoonful and you didn't cough.

Right?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. That's. That's how that played out. And that's how we would make things a little differently. I think we've talked about quite a bit of the. The trivia.

I will just say that that between the 37 and the 90 version, there's more. There's more emphasis on the fact that Stella was trying to surround herself by the wealthy. Stella.

Stella, actually in the original, when she is a spectacle and embarrasses herself in front of her daughter's friend, she has actually just put on errors. She's wearing a fur stole. She's wearing extra jewelry. She's got so many bangles on that she jingles when she walks. So it's just tacky, gaudy.

Yeah.

Stella is all disheveled, having just been sitting around in her house coat all day, and decides to pretty herself up.

And she gets a dress out of her wardrobe, and it's a very classy, classic black dress, the simple black dress that they say is a staple of every woman's wardrobe because it's versatile.

Red dress and a black dress.

Yep, exactly. But she does this thing which is an homage to the original, because Stella in the original likes tacky, gaudy things.

Stella takes this black dress from her closet and she takes off the embellishment, there's like a star and other things on this that make it look wore like a cocktail dress. But it goes from cocktail dress dress to formal evening dress just with a few snips of the scissors because she's handy like that.

She made her daughter sweet 16 dress and certainly now she's ready for an evening to entertain the one who got away.

Yeah. And that's another thing is that him flying in the snow all the way out there just to see her for even an hour power and give her presence.

And in person seeing Jenny is telling me he's a good guy.

And that's one of the things that I think is in, in a lot of versions of this if is that the father's a deadbeat and like you're just like you, you expect him to be a stuck up person. And he's not, he's. He. And he likes Stella, you know, even though he's with Janice and everything. Who's a great, who is a good character too.

You like her too. And often in movies like this you have to have like a villain. You have to have people that you don't like.

Like Bette wouldn't, would never like Janice. But she lets it go because she wants her daughter to have a better life.

Wicked stepmother.

Yeah, that type of thing. Who Jenny and her would get along well but Stella and Janice like just would hate each other. I like the fact that everybody in this is likable.

The only person that you don't really like is Ed.

Boyfriend.

Well yeah, the boyfriend. And let's not not say that Eileen Brennan, you like her because she's Eileen Brennan. But wow, what a b.

But the only reason that you don't like Ed is because he's such a horrible, sloppy, nasty drunk. And that scene with the turkey, I have lived through stuff like that and I cringed hard during that scene. It was so hard to watch. So. Okay.

Some far off destination that the daughter has no hopes of going to because you can't just hop on a airplane to get there.

Right.

Yeah. So.

Alrighty Matt. Well, we have finished talking about this. Fun. Well, not Necessarily fun but very heart wrenching update of a late 30s story.

Certainly something that memorable.

We'll leave it as memorable. Yeah, but I think they. Because they all did a wonderful job with the movie.

Yeah, but I, I think that there were some distinctive Bette Midler moments in this movie that would not have been the same if somebody else had played Stella.

Right.

So. All right, well we're going to talk about the other things, things that you might enjoy if you like. Things like Stella movies from the early 90s.

I'm going to make a recommendation here. This is a film about Angie who lives in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn. Who knew Brooklyn was big enough to have neighborhoods.

But she lives in Brooklyn and dreams of a better life. When she finds out she's pregnant by her boyfriend Vinnie, she decides she'll have the baby but not Vinnie as her husband.

This turns the entire close knit neighborhood upside down scandal. And starts Angie on a journey of self discovery. On her way, she meets a new love interest.

Yes, I turned them down.

And you should also know that Geena Davis is solely responsible for founding an organization that has influenced the portrayal of women and minorities on television and film.

That's wonderful. Truly wonderful. Yeah, it's funny. Stella, Angie, you're really into these women, single women, names. Yeah, I'll recommend Joy. No.

Anyway, I, I'm going for. A group of aging Chinese American women, meet regularly, teach to trade familial stories while playing mahjong.

An adaption of Amy Tan's best selling novel. Explores the cultural conflict and often turbulent relationships between four first generation Chinese American women and their mothers.

But if I'm not mistaken, I think Andrew McCarthy is also in that.

Yes, I believe he does play.

He's one of the people that marry into the family because you know.

Yeah, and I remember it being a big thing. He's not Chinese.

Right. If Joy Luck Club were to be made today, I would want to see Michelle Yeoh in that.

I want to see. That's the thing is that we need more Movies like this because for a long time, Joy Luck Club.

Like, you name an Asian film, Joy Luck Club and anything that. Jackie Chan or not Jackie Chan. Jackie. What was his name? Kung Fu Guy.

Oh, Bruce Lee.

Yes, anything Bruce Lee or Joy Luck Club. That was like all that people could name. Right. It's really great that we have more. Thank you so much to Margaret Cho.

We have so much more Asian representation out there.

And Michelle Yeoh played the part of the future mother in law.

The girl who's like the main character in this movie doesn't know that her boyfriend's family is super loaded because they live in like, Singapore or whatever and she's never met them. Them. So when he takes her to meet the family, suddenly she's in La La Land because now he's basically royalty and Michelle. Yo.

Is the woman she's got to impress.

So that always meant to watch that movie and I just haven't yet. It's on my list.

Yeah, I. I've only seen it once, but I. I think I bought it in a discount big bin because I'm like, if this goes off streaming, I'm screwed. I have to buy.

Yeah, have. And I. I'll tell you another one, though. And it's recent. That whole. The. The. Everything all over the place, all at once.

Everything everywhere, all at once.

That is such an amazing movie. I mean, it's trippy as heck, but I loved it.

I mean, mostly because Jamie Lee Curtis gets to. To let it all hang out.

Yes. I mean, everything about that movie was just like, this is awesome. Yeah.

Okay, so that's Stella. A tearful, unforgettable melodrama powered by Bette Midler's performance.

It's a story that mixes love, class struggles, and maternal sacrifice into one bittersweet package. Like you're baking something. And it leaves us reflecting on the most enduring question of all. How much would you give up for someone you love?

Well, some of us are about to find that out because the holidays are going to be here soon. And do you. Do you really want to put up with Uncle Willie's opinions on the matters of the world today?

Yeah. That's why Uncle Willie is not invited.

Girl, he has to. Well, the last Time he got to sit at the kids table. Although I'm afraid of the influence he has over today's youth. Well, that VCR is blinking.

That usually tells us it's got another job to do. I'm just gonna let it do its thing.

Next time on Matinee Minutia. Perry King, a sexist womanizer, is killed by a group of his angry former lovers in heaven.

He makes a bargain with God for redemption and agrees to return to earth. Once there, he must have a sincere relationship with a female and make her fall in love with him.

Oh, that almost. That almost sounds like a update from, like, a Steve Martin and Lily Tomlin movie where half his body is controlled.

That tap tap was such a wonderful. I watched that all of me, over and over. I love that movie.

Well, everybody, mind your p's and q's. When you get your invitation to the table, and before it's actually turkey Day, we'll be in your ear holes one more time.

I don't know about you, Matt, but I think that I'm gonna get out before the cleaning lady arrives because the last time she was here, she asked for change, and I. I don't carry cash on me.

Yeah. What's cash? I don't know what that that is any more. Yeah. Besides, I gotta drive Hector home.

I. I actually, I think Cash is one of the arcade kids because, well, let's just say that Lula May ran out of names.

Okay, well, let's just say that Cash is one of the names of the kids. We need to make him go. Yeah.

All right, folks, see you next time or hear you next time. Thank you for listening to Matinee Minutia.

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