This week KD Hearst, from Don't F* up the Crime Scene, joins us to discuss... well... how to not mess up on criminal investigations. As an animal control officer and educator, he provides insight into how to address animal cruelty and neglect assessments, developing rapport and assessing the situation before coming up with a solution.

This episode is labeled explicit for language and content, so listener discretion is advised. But this is a fun and wild ride into the world of the ACO and it is both entertaining and educational.

Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

This is your host, Dr.

G.

And our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan.

We have an awesome guest today from Don't Fuck Up the Crime scene.

We have Kevin Hearst.

Welcome, Kevin.

Thank you for being here.

Hey, what up Dr.

G?

What's up?

Thank you so much for joining me.

I'm so pumped up that you're here.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, it's like I just saw you, but it's okay.

I know, right.

So I was, I had the honor of being a, a guest at his podcast, so now he is paying

it back and being a guest on my podcast.

So how about you tell our, our listeners who you are, what you do, and

what brought you to where you're at?

Okay, so I'm K.D.

Hearst, uh, Sr.

I have a son with the same name.

He's a medical examiner, uh, on death investigator that

separates us a little bit.

I've been doing animal control to 1994, animal cruelty humane

law enforcement investigation.

Um, a adjunct professor at the University of Missouri Extension office.

And I currently, right now still do some animal, uh, control work.

And I have my own podcast and a subject matter expert and I

travel around teaching the craft.

That's awesome.

So what, what led you to be an animal investigator?

Animal cruelty investigator.

So, um, back in 1994, um, I got on, um, back in Georgia,

in DeKalb County and I was a ACO.

Uh, of course we all say we like dogs and what have you, and I was like, okay.

And I was okay.

I came from New York, so I had a different type of vibe, different type of hustle,

and uh, the job came very easy to me.

I had a awesome supervisor at the time.

Uh, he believed in me and my boss said, Hey, go out there and handle business.

And I started presentations, stuff like that.

So the job came very easy to me for us talking to people and

capturing animals like that.

And then, uh, I got promoted, uh, 1, 2, 5 times, uh, within, uh, 26 years.

And it just broaden my horizons to go out there and help, uh, uh, people

with the animals as far as problems and prosecute animal cruelty cases.

I love animal cruelty cases.

I love, um, dangerous animals and bite investigations.

Love it.

Awesome.

So, What made you wanna create this podcast?

Um, so don't fuck up the crime scene comes to, uh, mind because

a lot of us get into a low and we do things routinely and we mess up.

Either you do not know how to do it, you get laxed on doing

it, or you rush to do it.

So, uh, and we don't Nope, sorry, sorry.

First as cases, you never wanna mess the crime scene up.

Okay.

Because when you go to court and you have a decent, uh, defense attorney,

they can poke holes all in your case.

Okay?

Uh, just, I mean, a, a lay person can mess, I mean, just mess you up.

So when you go out there, I'm a big scriptor.

I have a, a, a checklist.

I go out there, I take my time.

Animal cruelty let, like a, a death investigation.

Take your time.

There's no rush.

A lot of us rush through it, uh, because we have pending calls and animal control,

animal, um, uh, cruelty investigators.

There's a difference.

It's almost like, uh, a plain close cop, a b cop versus a detective,

uh, a plain close cop, a beat, um, anywhere from a c o their go.

And it's a whole bunch of calls.

When you have a detective, they slow it down and methodically

work through the case.

You know what I'm saying?

Same thing with the ACI.

We, we take our time, so it's a difference training a little bit,

but able to have time to, um, view and see the case and work through it.

That's awesome because I have worked with some, some ACOs that

prepare cases really well and then.

I mean, we're dealing with animals, right?

So there's a lot of emotion involved.

So sometimes people get into this situation, get into the crime scene,

they see the animal, and then they wanna help and they wanna help so

fast that they don't pay attention to what's going on in collecting evidence.

Uh, a case that I can think of is a dog that was inside of a trailer home

and, and the dog was already dead, so there was no reason to bust in, but they

were concerned about the temperature inside of the trailer home, and they

didn't take the temperature inside.

Right.

So then after, after the fact, it's like, could this, could the temperature

have aggravated the, the situation?

Well, we don't know because we don't know what the temperature was cuz

they just wanted to get in there.

Uh, pictures are taken, they're blurry.

They're not, they're not.

Okay.

Um, or, you know, things are moved and then we can't go back to, to get them.

So do you have, do you offer like training?

Do you offer assistance?

Do you offer So ways for ACOs to get better?

So the thing is, like I had a great mentor, uh, um, Dr.

Melinda Merck.

You should know her.

Yes.

Yeah, I do.

She's awesome.

And then I had, uh, Dr.

Uh, Charlotte Robinson.

Um, and I have so many debts in my life who said, okay, um, this is what I need

and this was, I, I need you to give me.

Okay.

So at that point, I'm like, okay, I need to kind of get the evidence.

So say you have an animal in a hot car, um, unless the animal is showing

distress visibly, you can hear it.

You can see it.

You need to take all the time you can and all the evidence you can

before you break into the car.

And a lot of people are like, no, it's Fluffy's dying.

Wsa, wsa.

Slow it down, wsa, slow it down for y'all don't know.

WSA means pulling your ears.

Um, I think it was bad boys.

One wsa, slow it down and do not trip.

Okay?

You go over there and I, I, I say this in some of my classes and,

um, if you wanna go to one of my classes, it's big time speakers, LLC.

If you wanna go to, uh, animal Cruelty Investigation School,

it's, uh, law Enforcement Training Institute, that's LETI.

Um, and we teach, uh, level, uh, one, two, and three on there.

And for as me, I just do, uh, in-service training.

Okay?

But.

When you see the vehicle out there, you're like, okay, all right.

And it's usually a Kroger, it's usually a Walmart.

It's usually, you know, something like that.

So first thing you do is shout out whose car is this, because

you shout out to have witnesses.

You want witnesses to see you shouting out, you're identifying,

you're announcing stuff like that two or three times real loud.

But before you even go to the call, uh, you should say, okay, we're, if you, if 9

1 1 calls, you'll say, okay, what is it?

Okay, nevermind.

Where's it at?

Okay.

Okay.

Call the store is in front of Walmart.

Call them and let them know, Hey, I have such and such a car, such and such a tag.

Um, can you make an announcement to get the dog outta there?

So sometime you can mitigate this before you even get there.

Okay?

The person come out, dog's gone.

Okay?

So when you get there, you see the halo effects.

Everybody's like this.

You know, the dog's right here.

Like, wow, I couldn't see, like I'm, I'm, I'm blind.

Okay?

I'm got there, Ray Charles.

Okay, I see it, right?

So I walk over here.

I'm like, okay.

Big thing with ACOs and ACIs, block out the crowd WSA on the noise

because they're gonna be telling you WSA and see the animals in distress

because we have electric cars.

They don't make any sound.

Okay.

The animal can be fine inside the car with air condition on.

You don't know, so be careful.

Okay?

The thing is, if the animal's in distress and everything, you have a choice.

How do you go about it?

Do you need to say fluffy?

And we call exigent circumstances.

Yes.

Okay.

You go in there.

Uh, is it time to take a picture?

Maybe not.

But if you can slow it down, take a picture when you're

coming up and it's three levels of pictures when you're taken.

Overview, mid-range, closeup, take the picture.

Okay, what's going on?

As if the animal's not in distress.

If the animal's in distress, chop, chop.

Okay.

Uh, pick a side window, not front, not back.

Use the as baton.

Break the window.

You don't care about the car, you care about the animal.

Okay.

You're protected under the law because your exigent circumstances,

you can go inside and then after that, get animal out.

And then depends on how much you want to, wh what do you wanna give them?

Me, if it's 12 ounces, I give 12 ounces.

If it's 16 ounces, I give 16 ounces.

I give, I give everything.

Okay.

And after that, I'll pull an animal out if it's in distress, if it's

not, if it's not, if it's heavy patches like that, I have time.

We going document everything.

Hopefully I have a body cam on, body cam sees the whole thing.

Then I'll take pictures.

Again, overview, mid-range closeup.

I take a picture of the animal, take a picture of the car, I try to

run the tag, all that good stuff.

And if I have a, um, um, a, a infrared, um, thermo gun, you wanna

shoot inside the car, not reflective.

Okay?

Cuz you can't get a reading on that inside the car, right?

You like this?

Okay?

You got that.

You take a picture of that, hit the dog, take a picture of that.

You see what the zip code is, all right?

Uh, AccuWeather, you get the temperature of the zip code, of

the ambient temperature outside.

So there's three temperatures and after that you are gonna

make your way through the car.

Do you, is it unlocked?

Check and see if it's unlocked.

Okay?

Be careful, slim jimming, um, the car, cuz you can damage the car.

It's easier just to break the window side, not front or back.

You get fluffy out, you see what's going on.

Tie 'em down.

If you lay 'em on, on the concrete, you're good to go.

If you can rectal, uh, thermometer, you have four, you have four

temperatures at that time, okay?

So you get all information like that, you call somebody else to

come take the animal to the vet.

Because you wanna stay with the crime scene cuz this is a crime scene.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

You send, you send the animal to a vet and you wait for the person to come out.

Now they're gonna be hot doc.

They gonna be hot, they'll be like this.

Oh my God.

What you do?

You, you took my dog, you broke my car.

I'm like, yeah, Uhhuh.

And your name is sir.

All right me.

It, it's just what it is, doc, uh, name, license, registration,

gimme, stuff like that.

And we go for, I digress.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

No,

no.

Yeah, no, that, that's cool cuz Yeah.

It's, uh, you know, everybody gets so caught up into the emotion of the animal

and everybody wants to get the animal out and then deal with the, with the scene

and that's just not, not how it goes.

Oh.

And then it just makes it so much difficult for the prosecutor and

everybody else to do their case.

Like, you can completely blow a case just by busting in too it soon.

Right.

You know, the thing is, I, I agree to the thing is like

this, um, so over time, five years, I say between one and five years you

get a lot of your emotions out the way cuz you never seen it before.

But when it comes, become part of your ooda loop.

All right?

And that's the military term I always use.

Ooda loop is observe, orient, decide, and act.

Okay?

You, you've seen it before, so you see it again.

It's quicker.

You see it again.

It is quicker.

So you usually experience and work like that.

Okay, I know what to do because Ive seen it before and it's no different

when you go on the scene, you're like this, okay, I got this.

But only thing is it slows down to you.

Everything slows down.

And far as crimes like that, there's no reason to rush.

If there's not exigent circumstances, there's no reason to rush.

Take your time.

Because sometime what?

What if you need a warrant?

What if you don't have permission?

What if you don't have consent?

What if they rescind consent?

These are all the things you have to worry about.

And if you're not law enforcement, what's your quasi law enforcement?

Me?

They say get off property.

I gotta leave.

You feel me?

So my thing is when I come out there, I wanna establish who the owner is.

Say we inside a house, they starving a dog, dog's a BCS between

a one and three on a Purina.

I wanna say, okay, I saw the dog from afar took pictures because we

have this thing called Zoom camera.

Oh my God.

And I'm like, okay, um, alright, let me knock on the door.

Now, once you knock on the door, you have to get permission from then forth.

You just can't do what you want to.

Okay.

They come outside, I'm like this, Hey, I'm Officer Hurst and uh,

we had a complaint about a dog.

Do you have a dog Now I know they have a dog cuz I just seen the damn dog.

Okay.

I said, do you have a dog?

They said, well, yeah.

Okay.

Hey we had a, he's kind of fence like that.

Is your dog a little thin and everything?

They said, well, you know, now he ain't been feeling well.

Okay, no problem.

Um, let's go in the back and see what's going on.

Now if I start walking, they didn't stop me.

They gave me an implied consent.

You understand?

Okay.

Yep.

So I walk around or everything.

I see fluffy, a, BCS between one and three AKA, he's a two.

I'm like this.

Okay, I see ribs, um, little spinal process going on or anything angulation

like that, hips and pins sticking out.

I'm like, okay.

He's a little underweight and everything.

Well, how long, when's the last time you been to a vet?

Oh, it's been a minute.

Okay.

Now can I use all that?

Yes.

Anything is, this is me.

On a Purina, if it's a a six to nine, can I charge him with cruelty for being obese?

I can use it.

Does it happen?

No.

A five and six ideal type of dog, but one in three.

I'm like, okay, can I educate him?

I don't know.

Do I have to investigate him?

Probably.

Do I have to eliminate the problem?

Absolutely.

You feel me?

So all I do is go back and say, okay, um, let me highlight you this.

We got, we got a little problem here.

Um, you know, k you know, a do they wanna part way with the animal?

Uh, do they wanna keep their animal?

And then how many other animals do they have?

You know what I'm saying?

Because if you take one for animal cruelty, you gotta take 'em all.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I'm saying?

So I, I digress.

I'm sorry.

I don't wanna take over.

Yeah, no, it's, that's perfect cuz Yeah, that's, that's what I'm saying.

Like, it's, it's a matter of taking the time.

I was speaking with a prosecutor not too long ago about the, the steps

that you gotta take and about how, for example, if you trespassed.

Then you take, you trespass, you take that animal, and then that

animal, guess what goes back to the guy or the lady or whoever, right?

So we're trying to help and instead of helping, we're making problems worse.

If there's an active investigation, you may have blown the investigation.

So we gotta be really careful about what we do.

You know, the thing about you making contact and consent,

search seizure versus, I just did a podcast, well, whoa, hell, it was 12.

12.

It was one of my, my earlier ones, right?

I did a solo between one and one and 13.

It was just me talking.

Have you done that, one of those yet?

I have not, but I heard yours.

Okay.

Yeah, I did.

And, um, yeah, I, I know I'm a fool sometime, but, and it's hard

doc, it's hard talking to yourself with like a tennis ball and stuff like that.

Yep.

You're like, okay.

It's a little difficult, but sometimes you just have to say,

okay, what are we doing here?

And then, uh, I'm about to do a few more solo stuff like that.

And like, Like Dan, I'll, I'll, I'll come and, uh, uh, a friend.

We go back and forth.

We have healthy discourse.

Okay.

Which is good.

Which is really good.

Yeah, because you push the envelope to like this.

Well, I didn't see it that way, which is good.

So you can write it down.

Like when you was talking and everything, I'm writing notes down and everything.

When you was talking, when you, on my podcast, when you go out there,

you wanna resolve the problem, but you need to educate them on what the

problem or inform the problem what it is so it doesn't happen again.

Right?

Because a lot of us wanna go like this, just, uh, be done with the call.

And, uh, some ACOs, not all, it's just quick

wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

They wanna get in and done.

What is, I don't wanna come back.

I don't wanna come back, but what if I have to, can I give them a

resource packet and they maybe say, what's a resource packet?

A resource packet is, First of all, you can quantify it.

It's a, a package of all the information you can give this person

and they can go out and get it.

You enable them to go out and get it.

You need a better doghouse.

You need this, you need that.

You give them the information and you say, here, low cost neuter spays.

You what I'm saying?

You give it to 'em, right?

But it's one packet.

You say, here you go.

Here's every damn thing, right?

And um, and then I know it's comply.

I'm gonna give you a paycheck.

That's two weeks.

I'm gonna give you two paychecks.

That's four weeks.

I'm going to help you to help me.

If we have a problem, here's my number, here's my number to call me.

And another thing we don't get email, right?

So when you get information, AKA, you getting a pedigree, get emails.

Now a lot of us don't get emails because sometime that's the only way

they can travel or talks like that.

After I get all the information and rapport, build rapport don't

come out as a overseer and I'm authoritative, stuff like that.

Rapport.

Say, Hey, I'm doing you a favor, know what I mean?

And, uh, I'm quick to speak slang.

The no, no, when I'm in the, when I'm out in the street, I speak

slang like every other word.

I'm like this no dog.

No, I, I'm straight in New York.

Okay.

So they be like, yo, where you from?

I'm sorry.

I'm from Brooklyn son, where you, you know, kid, know what I mean?

We talk.

So, right.

It's one of those things where you can like, alright, my

man ain't trying to get me.

I'm not trying to get you, but I need you to get this correct.

If that makes

sense.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

It's, it's a matter of going to a place.

It's a difference between going to a person and presenting yourself as I'm

here to help you and help your dog, or I'm here to get you in trouble.

So Dan and I talked about that.

It's like, how do you approach places?

How do you, you approach people that may come out defensively

and say like, why are you here?

It's kinda how do you present yourself so that they understand why you're there.

Uh, one of the, one of the things that, that I do is when, when me and

my staff, when we talk to people, We don't try to talk like we're so smart

and, you know, medical terminology and all that stuff, we talk normal.

Um, my facility, even when I was in practice, we wore

t-shirts and scrub pants, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I'm not wearing a lab coat.

I'm going into a room and I'm presenting myself as a person.

I'm a person that has an education to help your animal and to treat

your animal, but I'm still a person.

I'm not better than you.

I just have different skills, different skill sets, and it's, and,

and to me it's kind of the same, it's kind of relating to, to people.

So how do you approach, you know, if you go somewhere and somebody is already hyped

up, concerned, and maybe at different time, I, I listened to one of your

podcasts that you and your guest were talking about how to read the, how to

read the person, how to see how they learn and see if, right, if they're a visual

learner or an auditory learner, like.

You know, that's important.

So how do you, how do you assess that, that information and how do you use

that information to, to help the person that, that you're going to investigate?

Okay, so when I go out and, um, no matter what law

enforcement, what agency says, uh, I don't stereotype, I don't, um, uh, I

don't, um, look at people like that.

Everybody does stop.

So when you get out the vehicle, and the first, sorry, when you go on the block, so

stop, stop, you go into the neighborhood, you on guard, like, okay, what's up?

Right?

You go on the block, you're like, what's up?

You see the house?

You are looking at the house and no matter what, you're like this, okay,

what's, what's, what's happening?

Okay?

Do I need to be on guard?

Do I need to relax or anything?

It's natural instinct.

So now I want to get out the vehicle and collect this.

Okay, what am I doing here?

And is the animal out here?

I see big row over here.

I see a dog over here.

I see a chain over here.

I'm reading all this information before I even hit the door.

Right.

I'm like this.

And back when I was in Atlanta, I'm sorry, in, in, uh, um, Georgia.

I would run the tags and cars right there.

I would know so much information about you before I hit the door.

And then it's um, two knocks and I'll go through 'em.

It's a, um, introduction knocks, and it is a popo knock.

It's a totally different knock depending on how you display your knock.

It depends on how they're gonna answer the door.

You do a popo knock, they might not even come.

Okay.

Or they'll yell, who is it?

You are pop, pop, pop.

It's introduction.

That means communication.

You wanna take it down?

Me, I don't, first of all, I don't talk through doors and I don't yell ever, ever.

Okay.

Only time I'll yell If you're coming, if you're coming at me, I'll give

you commands to step back and I will do it loud to create witnesses.

That's it.

Other than that, I'm so laid back and people have been out with me.

I do ridealongs.

I, I've been to other counties, other states do ridealongs.

They're like, You, you smooth.

I'm like, bruh, I've been doing this.

Okay, I get out hypothetically 85 to 90% with a leash, with a O ring.

I don't even use the catch pole for the majority of most animals.

Majority.

Okay?

Um, some of them cray cray, but when I go out there, I'm like, this, okay, you

assess the situation, you assess a level of threat for me, for me, I'm like this.

Okay?

All right.

And then you, I'm seriously, you have to keep watch and see

what's going on the whole time.

Because as every law enforcement officer will say, I wanna make it back home.

Everybody wanna make it back home.

Okay, everybody.

So I'm like this.

Okay?

So when I go over there, I knock on the door, you move back,

create distance, because it's, it's called a reactionary gap.

And I'm like this, okay?

And if the door's coming out, they don't have a hand on the door.

I hold the door.

This might sound like simple stuff.

I do all types of training where a lot of officers get bit by dogs

because they don't hold the dog.

They don't know what the door, how the door open, stuff like that.

But when I meet somebody and they're already at 15, I need to take them down

to by seven or six for communication.

So I'm like this, how do I do that?

AKA verbal Judo Dan do, uh, deescalation.

I do ver verbal, judo.

It's the same thing.

Okay?

I come out there and I give you 90 seconds.

I actually give you 90 seconds to blow off steam.

The more you yell at that, that's sugar.

Your glucose going crazy.

Hurry,

your ass get tired, right?

Mm-hmm.

I'll give you 90 seconds if you stammer stutter mumble or if you

repeat, I say Hold up, hold up my turn.

I take over the conversation.

I say, okay, hold.

I didn't cut you off, did I?

Well, no.

Okay.

My turn okay.

Okay.

Alright.

We reach a point of respect and now I'm trying to build rapport.

I want to build a friendly rapport to understand.

I was called, I don't know who called.

I'm not gonna say who called.

I'm here because your animals are a problem and we're gonna

see how we can fix that.

It's about tone and delivery.

Your tone and how you deliver the message.

And once you get that, oh doc, when I say this shit easy, hold up.

This shit easy.

Okay?

This is so easy.

You're like this and after that you be dapping.

Matter of fact, you got something to drink, lemme gimme a coke.

And you start talking.

I mean, I've been to, and this is cultural, you can go to another thing.

I will tell you a lot of officers, and I tell your listeners, if you

go to a particular neighborhood and it's a particular uh, uh, uh,

ethnicity, learn the damn language.

Because that's half of the battle right there.

Okay.

Now I speak Hood Spanish.

I'm getting better cuz I'm gonna retire in South America or Central America.

Okay.

Y'all can hate me.

Okay.

I'm leaving the United States.

Hell with y'all.

But I go over there, I like this, you know, I'm, I come in there like,

you know, Hola, como esta, they were like this, they're like this.

I'm like this.

Say I like un poquito.

They're like, oh, little bit.

I'm like, I little bit we can go back and forth.

And they're like, but, but it, it, it, it mitigates all that.

And now we talking.

And the other thing is you go to a family where you can't speak to the

wife, you gotta speak to the husband.

You have to know all these cultural cues.

Okay?

If it's a Islamic family like that or a Japanese family like that, or you can't

wear shoes in, so I have you come out cuz I'm not taking my damn shoes off.

So it's things you work out, you know what I'm saying?

And when they're like, babababa, I'm like this.

I'm so calm now.

If you to caught me 17 years ago on, uh, si Lord.

Si Lord come out, but now Doc, I'm like this, okay, it's not that deep.

Let's, let's talk.

And they're like this, it ain't that bad.

I'm like, it ain't that bad.

What?

Let's talk, let's work it out.

Let's see what we can do.

They're like this.

I appreciate it.

I appreciate you.

Just like the, and people who've been with me, I have people with, they like this.

How do you, I'm like, dude, it's just years of experience.

Dan has been in Denver for many years and I don't know if they're high.

Um, I don't, I don't know.

It's the altitude?

Both, right?

High times two.

So this, I'm usually, I'm in the hood, uh, right now.

Uh, I, I work in Maryland and um, I, I, I'm, I'm in the hood.

I'm in the country.

We, um, people.

They will flex their second amendment.

Okay.

They will, you know, and I'm like this, okay, okay.

And I don't have any artillery on me.

I'm like, uh, you got me, you got me?

Okay.

Uh, I'm like, this can, can we put those down?

Stuff like that.

They're like, what you doing out here?

Well, because your cows got out.

He's like, okay, alright.

Yeah, they can't get out, bruh.

All right.

We, we talking.

All right.

Um, hold, hold up.

Y'all cooking?

Yeah.

What y'all cooking?

You, you understand?

You start talking.

Mm-hmm.

If I see a flag, right?

Uh, I see a, a, a cowboy flag and I can't stand the Cowboys.

Okay.

The Dallas Cowboys, they suck.

rhinocerous nuts.

Okay.

I was like, I'm like, are you a Cowboys fan?

He's like, I said, I'm a giant.

He's like, oh.

We start talking about that other than what the problem is and it

will ease back into the problem.

And he'll be like, this man, you are all right.

I'm like, I tried to be, but you a damn Dallas cowboy.

And we joke.

And get it done, you feel me?

Yep.

So, so many ways you can go at it without coming like authoritative.

That make sense?

Yeah, yeah.

It's, yeah.

No, absolutely.

And it's the same as, you know, as a veterinarian, I've always felt

like I have social anxiety, part of a hard time wondering if I'm

gonna tell somebody something that's gonna piss 'em off or upset 'em.

So I was not, not scared, but kind of right, like a little bit reluctant.

And then I realized that that person is probably just as scared

about what I'm gonna tell them as I am of how they're gonna react.

And I learned from that and I took that in and it built me up.

So I go into a place, into a room, into dealing with a, whether it's an

owner or being dealing with somebody that, that I'm concerned about

animal abuse or anything like that, understanding that they're probably

more afraid of me than I am of them.

And I let that, you know, help me out.

I, uh, several years ago I dealt with a case where a juvenile assaulted a

dog, sexually assault, assaulted a dog.

Mm-hmm.

And the, the, you know, I, I was concerned about how is, how are the

parent gonna react when I tell them, your kid just sexually molested this dog?

Mm-hmm.

But I went into the room and I was just straight up with the, with the dad.

And I told him what was going on.

And of course he was, at first he was like, heartbroken.

And then he was pissed, just flat out pissed.

He opens the door and he's like, can you, can you explain to my

son why you just told to me?

Because the kid was there 13 year old kid.

Mm-hmm.

And he calls him and he's like yelling at him to, to come in

the room and kid sits down.

And same thing, like, I know that that kid's more afraid of me than I am of him.

Mm-hmm.

So I, uh, I was not aggressive like, You know, like, you done fucked up.

It was more like, I know, you know, I know what you did.

That's what the dad was telling him.

Right, right, right.

Um, so I said, I know what you did, so I just need you to

tell me what you did it with.

And then he told me and I, and then I told him, thank you.

Right.

I said, thank you for being honest.

Thank you for telling me what happened.

Now we can start working up.

So there was communication.

This kid had done something horrible.

Mm-hmm.

And yet we were having a communication and the parents understood that I

clearly, I care about the dog cuz I'm taking care of the dog's health, but

I care about their kids', their kids', mental health and overall health.

So we got the police involved because it's a crime, uh, but also because I wanted

that kid to, to go get help to go to Children's Hospital and get assistance.

Um, so, so all that happened.

So I understand from what you're saying as far as reading

the kind of reading the room.

Yes.

Reading the, being culturally competent.

Understanding where these people are coming from and then talking to

them at their level so that they can understand what I have to say to them.

And I can, you know, I can't relate to them in that I don't understand

what they're going through.

But I have a 17 year old, so I know what I would feel like if my kid

did that, I would be just destroyed.

And, and I so pissed off.

So, yep.

I had, I had a case, um, f few years back where, um,

I was a supervisor coming in on one of my officer's case.

And, um, everybody was about sergeant, two other officers there, and my officer.

And they didn't know what, they didn't know how to deal with what

they saw or what was alleged.

And, uh, I get on the scene and everything, and if you do this

more than 15 years, you almost seen everything, you know, I mean, 10.

Almost five.

Not enough, but about 15 to 20 years you've seen everything.

So, um, a sexual case where, um, the kids were over at the, um, the mother's

house, primary, um, parent is a father.

So they go over there, she's, um, say a little loose, right?

And they get into, um, some of her toys and, um, she has a pit bull over there,

uh, AKA, what they call a pit bull.

And they start using some of the, um, her toys on the dog.

And the dog, um, turns around and bites one of the kids viciously.

Okay?

So it's level three, almost a four bite on the Ian Dunbar scale.

And, um, you know, ambulances called, everybody's called stuff like that.

And, um, all officers on scene, like they're shaking in their

head and stuff like that.

They're like, yo, this is crazy.

I've never seen something like this.

I'm like, you know, my officer, my ACO was like, I'm like, what's, what's going on?

I get in there.

Or, or it's nothing but sex toys.

Okay.

I'm like this right?

Lube and everything.

And the dog, this is the first time I've seen this, the dog in is in

the corner and shocked, like it's just been raped because it just was.

Mm-hmm.

But I never seen the dog shut down like that.

I've never seen that before.

So, and it, that was odd for me.

I was like, what's going on?

And the dog was like, it was just like, like they, like

it was just been assaulted.

And I was like, okay.

And I seen what's going on.

I was like that.

Okay, okay, so I have a crime scene, so you have to process it like that.

You have a victim.

And I was like, okay.

And then you have to take each tag, each individual, uh uh, uh,

that might have been or not been.

You take everything.

You have to inventory everything.

And now I have to go take the animal to the vet.

We have to do examination.

Now, this is one thing me to you, do you guys, um, and you, you've

been out at vet school for a while.

Do you guys learn about sexual assault, sexual crimes in school?

Or do you have learned outside?

You kind of have to learn outside.

There's a veterinary forensics class that I actually was guest lecturer, but there's

only like 20 kids out of 160 something.

Right?

So 20 kids know how to deal with it or ha have seen a lecture on it.

But 140 kids have not.

So, so, so, um, um, I've watched a few of my mentors, you know,

uh, uh, do you know, uh, anal exam prof?

Like that, you know, a sexual assault exam.

Okay.

A rape kit.

Okay.

And I was like this.

So, um, am I vet by no means do I to do one uhhuh.

So I get over there and, you know, we have a emergency veterinary thing.

They never seen it.

They ne haven't take the class like that.

Never seen it.

So I said, okay, this is what you do.

And they was like, okay.

I said, BBA B B I videotaped the whole thing.

Okay?

And, um, they used a lot of lube, so there was no, um, um, um, tears,

ruptures, and nothing, nothing.

Vaginally or anal, there was nothing.

So, um, there was, uh, I mean, I, I had nothing there

cause they used so much lube.

So we went up there like that.

Now a few things, cause they, you know, they pushed down and a few

things came out, uh, uh, and, um, the poop plastic or whatever the dog was

eating like that, but was no tearing, no scarring, no, no blood, no fu, no

nothing, no tears, no rips, no nothing.

So I was like, this, okay, I know it happened, but I had nothing.

So I was like, okay, now the dog, it took the dog about 48

hours to become normal again.

Now the thing is, and this is with we're talking, usually when an animal is

trained or conditioned to do a sex act, you have to, you have to put 'em down.

You have to use euthanize.

Okay?

Because it becomes a danger to itself.

And somebody else, this dog here, it, the dog was good to go.

They signed the dog over, you know, dog act, you know, like that.

But, um, I just felt bad for the dog cause I'd never seen a dog in shock like that.

Um, and then we had to perform, you know, uh, uh, uh, again, the examination

and about it took it about 48 hours.

You know how you do a cat, you put a, a feral cat or somewhat feral, you put 'em

inside a, a, a cage with a hot oil box.

You come back 24, 36 hours, it's a different cat.

Mm-hmm.

That's how this was, you know, and I was like, okay.

And then you have teenagers.

So do you prosecute 'em?

Very difficult because one's not gonna tell on the other, and then

the mother, that's another story.

You know what I'm saying?

So, you know, this is, and a lot of people know how to process it

because when it comes to sexual assault or sexual, um, anything

on animals, nobody wants to do it.

It's taboo.

Nobody wants to report it and nobody wants to prosecute it.

You know what I'm saying?

You agree.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah, I do.

Um, I had a case forever ago that I had pictures.

I have evidence, and the only thing that I didn't have was like proof

of like semen or anything like that.

Mm-hmm.

And, and that's one of the things that I've learned since then in my studies

is how to get more evidence because the pictures, the injury, the, the bruising.

Mm-hmm.

None of that mattered because the people just said I didn't do it.

Mm-hmm.

So then the prosecutor at that time said, well, they said they

didn't do it, so they didn't do it.

And my word was not enough,

so, you know, um, so, so, um, my guys up in, um, New York, um,

the, uh, animal cruelty squad up there.

Um, I got, and I have ag on a few times, he's a lieutenant, he runs a squad and I

know all the guy, everybody's retiring.

Now's very good investing.

Cause they, they all cops, they've been doing something like that

and they just took all their knowledge and went to animals.

Phenomenal.

Okay.

And they, uh, had a guy, he was, um, having sex with a poodle, poodle or

Bichon, and he was putting the Bichon, um, on a, um, iron board so he can

get the right height and, uh, cranking his tail and just wearing it out.

Okay.

They put a, uh, a pole camera on, uh, it's up in the Bronx, I think, and put a pole

cam and watched him in the whole thing.

Okay.

But again, oh no, they, they hadn't dead the right.

He lift his wife beater up and just went to work.

And, um, you know, the dog was always like, you know, running from

this guy, you know what I'm saying?

And they found out and the evidence like that and took him in hard to prove

sometime if you don't have eyewitness and if the animal doesn't have that

evidence, you know what I'm saying?

And a lot of people understand, um, you give it about a day or

thing, they can lick that evidence or swallow evidence and it's gone.

You know, and it's, it's, it's different if, you know, I mean, you know, I do

a forensic check stuff like that and go up in there and see if there's any

tearing or rupturing, stuff like that.

But sometimes it's hard, you know?

And matter of fact, um, alright.

Have you been sworn in as an ex expert witness yet?

Mm-hmm.

No, I have not.

Um, it's coming.

Don't worry, don't worry.

Yeah, don't worry.

It's, you know, few more cases.

Few more cases, you'll be alright.

Yeah, I know.

I, I'm looking forward to it.

I, I mean, I want to, I want to get up there and, and do

something about it, right?

Because that's why I, I got into forensics cuz I like criminology and I

like veterinary medicine and I wanna get the people that are doing animal abuse

and neglect cuz there's a link between animal abuse and interpersonal violence.

So we wanna make it, it's called all the link.

It's called all the link, right?

Yeah.

Literally.

So if I wanna make, you know, again, I have a kid, so if I wanna make

it a safer place for my kid, then I gotta do something about it.

So that's my way of, of helping out.

You know, I, um, I used to get criticized because, uh, everybody

said, all you do is lock people up.

All you gonna is lock people up.

We talking, some people need to be locked up.

Sorry.

Okay.

Everybody's not gonna make the boat to get rehabilitated.

Okay.

Um, you know, some people like, yeah, you need to be taken off the market.

And, uh, but only things, like you said, I had a extremely good team around me.

And then, um, I was just talking to one of my guys, um, he's a supervisor

now, and he's like, you know, we was just talking about, he was like, he,

he likes my progression of when I left.

And he's like, you doing so much like that?

I was like, eh, I was doing it there, but just on a lower level.

And I said, I said, I like what you're doing.

So we run our animal, um, um, animal control academy.

Okay.

And it was passed on to me.

I took it, added to it, and passed on somebody else.

Academy is 6 to 8 weeks and it gets you in tune of what you need to do.

It's, um, a half day in class doing whatever, and it's

half day doing ride alongs.

So you get both sides of it.

Okay.

So police, it's all, I don't know, eight to 10 weeks in class.

And when you graduate, then you go to FTO, you go on the street.

Okay.

So I like to half class in the morning and the afternoon you go on the road.

So you can see what I was talking about in real time, if that makes sense.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

And uh, a lot of 'em like this.

Yeah.

We just had this call last night.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

And I put up, and I am, because adult learners learn how they learn from seeing,

um, kids learn from seeing and hearing, and college students, they just hear you.

And the thing is different, technology is different, so

they're like, they can just get it.

Okay.

It's way different than, you know, when we was coming up.

Um, but teaching the ACOs now, It's difficult because the laws

are real difficult, you know, and, uh, it's kind of hard to interpret.

And I think, um, you know, it's, it's problems and I, I like things to be

cut and clear so we can understand what to do and what not to do.

You guys, you guys have that problem up in, uh, Ohio?

Sometimes We do.

And, you know, the laws, I, when I was speaking with the prosecutor,

we were talking about how the laws are kind of objective of or not,

or subjective and not objective.

Okay?

So you, you can read it and you can interpret it in a lot of different ways.

One of the things that she said was a good thing from that is that sometimes

things are not black and white.

There's a gray scale.

And that gray scale helps cuz she said for the example that she, that she laid

is that 32 degrees and lower is considered too cold for an animal to be outside.

So then she's saying, well, if the, if the temperature's 33 degrees, is that okay?

Well, it's not okay depending on the type of dog, if it's a small breed

dog, if it's a dog with short hair.

So the nice thing about it being somewhat of a gray scale is that it gives

you the opportunity to, you know, to adjust based on, on the circumstances.

So the sa same circumstances, not going to affect the same,

the same way each, each victim.

So when I, um, I don't know, I forgot what class it is.

I go out there, what is it, the number one, I don't know.

So I show pictures.

I say, okay, what's wrong with this picture?

And I show like four or five pictures and everything like that.

It's plain to see dogs outside, tethered, uh, tethered through a tree.

Uh, there's, um, no grass around it, stuff like that.

It could have been there for a while, maybe not.

There's no house for the animal to retreat for as, uh, inclement weather.

Uh, BCS is roughly a four, four slipping to a three.

And the animal looks.

In decent health.

What, when we go knock on the door, if somebody's home, it's

like, well, he's an inside dog.

Well, I, I know, but his ass is out now.

Okay.

Right.

And then, and then you have the, like, no, no, no.

He's an inside dog.

Well, I'm like, again, I'm not Stevie Wonder, but I see

his ass is outside right here.

Okay.

So I'm like, I hear what you're saying.

But the animal out there, it has no shelter retrieved.

Oh.

We just put 'em out there for a little while if you're supervising, I get it.

But if you're not, the animal can't be out there for an extended period of time.

You know what I'm saying?

So can I educate 'em?

Absolutely.

Okay.

Is this a, is it citable?

Possibly.

Okay.

But if I say, Hey, you can't do this, and if you gonna have to,

you have to have whatever it means.

I like doing that.

Um, Dr.

G, if you'd caught me like 17 years ago, I would've went off, I

would've made a rain on her ass.

Okay.

I'm like this.

She'd be like this.

I, I'll just throw a ticket for days like this right now.

I'm like, okay.

And I don't mean to say you is a dumb ass, but you is a dumb ass.

Okay, let me holler at you.

And, um, and some people just don't know.

Right?

And everybody is not a pet owner.

Some people are a dog owner.

There is a difference.

Pet owners take the animals to what?

The vet.

They have the dog is named other than Blackie.

Mackie or Slacky.

Okay?

Um, they, you know, they, they, the dog comes in, they, uh,

play with the dog once or twice.

They take the dog on a walk with a leash, okay?

And versus the pet owner dog is isolated.

It's not socialized, stays outside, uh, any type of weather.

You know what I'm saying?

There's a difference.

And I try to tell, you know, I tell people all the time, I say It's okay.

And you want to educate or inform, um, to me irresponsible pet owners.

And it should be a class.

This should be something they should take on before they get an animal.

Why they get an animal and maybe even after they don't see, you know,

I'm saying I don't want another dog.

Okay.

Okay.

There needs to be something too.

And this is one thing.

So I'm doing a class right now on, um, what's it called?

Better news

bad.

Right?

So when you have to, as law enforcement, aka a ACOs have to

give bad news, bad news, better.

Sorry, I had it wrong.

Bad news.

Better when you have to talk to the owner or whomever and

you have to give 'em bad news.

Now that can be a, the animal died, gonna get hit by a car, uh, citation.

They about to go to jail.

How do you do that in a formal way without it going crazy?

So that's the class I'm working on now.

And, um, I've been doing my research.

I have my pad right here.

Um, I got, I got what, two weeks, two and a half weeks to finish this.

It's not the easiest thing because people take news all types

way, you know what I'm saying?

Um, and this what gets me when they're in the wrong, they're in

denial and they don't hear nothing.

I'm like, you know, you're wrong.

Right.

But I can't say that I'm like, fuck's wrong with you, you know?

But I have to like, okay, okay, okay.

And then so, okay, I hear what you're saying, but this,

I hear what you're saying.

And Doc, the ACOs, we get no love.

ACIs?

We get no love.

No love, no love.

And then I like, uh, when vets and everything with private

practice, you guys get it.

Bad people like this doc, you can't hook me up the prices.

I don't got that doc.

I don't,

you don't care about my dog.

Right?

You don't care about my dog.

You're letting my dog die.

No, you're letting your dog die.

Right.

It's like, I'm here to meet you halfway way.

You have to meet me

the other,

oh, no, no, no.

They're like this.

Okay.

That's what you do, right?

You, you wanna save my dog?

Right?

You're like, what?

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

No.

And, and that's why there's so much compassion fatigue and why veterinary

medicine has one of the highest suicide rates, because most veterinarians

go into it because we love animals and we wanna help, and, and there's

a lot of empathy and sympathy.

And then you get into it and you graduate from vet school, and I'll say,

I wanna save the puppies and kittens.

And then you go into a room and you say, okay, this is what it needs.

And the person says, well, I can't do it.

We gotta put it down, or, I can't do it.

I'm gonna go home and let it die at home, or whatever.

And then it's like, what?

Or they come in and say, I can't afford your prices, like you were saying,

and you're just gonna let my dog die.

And then what do you do with all that?

Right.

Most, most people that go into this field are good people that have good emotions.

And they take all that in.

And you can see 10 clients in a day and nine clients love you.

And that one person that tears you down, that's the one that's gonna mess up your

day and it's gonna mess up your night and it's probably gonna mess up your week.

And I have to say, I'm kind of lucky that I am somewhat detached, so I

don't take stuff personally, right?

So I have empathy, I care, I care about people, I care about animals,

but I don't have that emotional issue that some people have.

So, doc, um, I am, I am a, I'm a Sith Lord for one thing.

Okay?

Um, you would see me and you like this.

He, he doesn't feel anything.

Okay.

Cause I, I have, I have seen so many cases where I'm like, this, I've been in so

many, so many, so many, so many incidents.

Dogs, I mean, I mean, Horses hit by cars.

I mean they guts.

I'm, I'm, I'm like this, okay.

It takes me maybe about four seconds to process and I'm like this, okay.

And I just worked through it.

But when you talk about the suicide rate in, um, vet, uh,

veterinarians, uh, I met too.

I met too young.

Guy I, university of Georgia, and, um, he took, this is before, you know, they

really cracked down on, um, you know, um, the, um, blue or pink solution, euthasol.

And, um, he took some home.

Uh, so, so he went to a hotel and everything.

You would think he was on top of the work.

Good looking guy.

Uh, a bachelor, just got outta school, good vet, and um, went to a hotel, hit the

lactated ringers, put it in there, did an IV drip and everything, and went to sleep.

Never came back.

And um, I've seen it twice.

So, um, I, I know what you're talking about.

You know, and it, it, it is deep.

It's deep.

And now the compassion fatigue, you know, and we got a matter

of fact, we gotta talk, talk.

We got, I'm gonna have you back on mine.

We got talk, talk cause, um, uh, uh, uh, it, and seemed like I, I had the

easy questions for you this time.

Like, you know, what foods you likes like that next time you are on, it's a wrap.

Go for the jugular.

But, um, you know, it's, it's some things out here.

I agree to disagree.

It's, um, it's a, it's a problem.

It's a problem with the number of animals that's walking around, um, because

it's, to me, it's a supply and demand.

When you have too much supply and no demand, there's a problem.

You know what I'm saying?

There's a huge problem and I understand, uh, everybody wants to

low numbers, um, you know, the whole live release rate, stuff like that.

But I always think about, uh, length of stay.

And I always look at stereo stereotypical condition cuz I see it.

Right?

I see it, you know, I see bite cases before they happened.

I'm like this and he about the bite the fuck outta somebody, okay.

I just keep walking.

I'm like, cause I don't wanna take the report.

Okay.

I'm like, I'm out.

But Doc, any shelters?

Oh, it's bad.

The number of animals in It's bad.

It is.

And again, you in Ohio, I don't know, you know your demographic like that.

The most dogs I've ever seen is you, is Texas, California Probably got some dogs.

Texas, I ain't never seen no that many dogs in my life.

In Georgia we had dogs.

But Texas, it's un it's unreal.

It's un it's unreal, you know.

Well, and the, and the resources available vary from one place to another.

So I did a episode on behavioral euthanasia because so many

people are against it, right?

Uh, for behavior.

And behavior is a disease.

Its a disease to the mind.

So having a dog that's really aggressive and just warehousing it, because we

can't, we can't fathom the idea of euthanizing a physically healthy animal

just because it, it has behavioral problem over what, what's the use in that?

Right.

Putting him in a cage and letting it just be a prisoner for what it didn't,

it committed no crime other than just having a mental health condition.

So one, one of the places that actually I was today is the Richland

County dog Pound or dog Dog shelter.

I don't wanna call it a dog pound because they're not a dog pound anymore.

They have come such a long way, but they have 102 dogs there right now.

Mm-hmm.

And about 70 dogs are available for adoption, and then the

rest of 'em are still on hold.

Now they're amazing in that they have resources.

And they have a great group of trained employees that take these animals out.

All the dogs go outside at least once in a day.

So even some of those dogs have been there for months.

There are some dogs that have been there since, at least last October.

They actually recently adopted a dog that has been there since last year.

So we were all excited because my staff, you know, we're going there

every month to do spays and neuters, and they're walking the halls and

they're seeing all these dogs.

Um, but there are other places that we go to that, whether they are

limited intake or not, they don't have the resources, they don't have

the people to work with these dogs.

And then the public starts, you know, complaining about it.

Like, well, why are you putting animals down for space?

Or for whatever reason or for behavior?

Well, because I have staff that I'm responsible for, that if

these people get attacked, get mauled, get bit, that's a problem.

That's on me, right?

If I adopt one of these dogs and it attacks, A child, a dog, a cat, whatever.

That's on me.

I'm responsible no matter what.

And people need to understand that.

And then that brings the, the whole idea of the compassion fatigue and

everything else to these shelters that are trying to fight against the whole

idea of, of no kill and, and, you know, life release error and all that stuff.

Doc, people are looking down on them.

Right.

Doc, doc, we, we talking, uh, I, I've seen the whole movement

from 2012 to where it is now.

It is not good.

Um, I've, I've toured so many facilities in these United States Okay.

In the upper two.

I just came back from Alaska and I've been in Hawaii doing Hawaii.

Does a good job.

They did a good job.

Okay.

I mean, far as, uh, the dogs and everything, they, Alaska is Alaska.

In, no disrespect to my life, I had a great time.

When I tell you the amount of animals inside some of these shelters, unreal.

And you can see them go, like you said, mentally.

They don't want me to come to the cage anymore.

You know what I'm saying?

I'm like this.

Okay.

I do a, a, a shelter safety course where I go out there and

I teach you what, what happens?

Bites, mauls, deaths, okay.

In the shelters, okay?

And people are like, well, what do you do?

Well, you should have put that dog down a long time ago.

But nobody wants to hear that.

You know, they're like this.

No, there's a home for it.

No, there's not.

And the thing is, you know, it's like, well, you just don't care.

No, I actually do care.

The dog's going stir crazy and you putting everybody at risk, and

then you're gonna adopt out foster, rescue the animal out, there's a

danger to itself and somebody else.

And then Doc, we talk, you know, woo, don't get me started.

They drug up the dog and sent him out the door.

Tr uh, tramadol, whatever.

They drug these dogs up.

He's like, so when the dog has an interaction, it's like, the dog's

like, oh, he, he's, he's so friendly.

He's a drug

addict, right?

He's a, he's a zombie.

He's like, you gets home and it wears off.

Look at Kujo, you know, they're like, come get this dog.

Come you like this?

What?

Well, what's wrong with him?

You know, I'm like this, I get over there.

Dogs like this, bro.

I'm good.

You know what I'm saying?

So, I've seen this over the years.

I investigated and we, we had talk, uh, I investigated four fatalities.

Okay.

And, you know, it's no joke to see people dead because of a dog.

Okay.

Kids ripped apart because of a dog could have been prevented.

Don't know.

We're gonna find that out, but it doesn't make a difference because the

person's dead now and then you walk back, ear over here, arm over here, finger

over there, half the head is missing.

I'm like this.

And the dog's like this in a cage wagging his tail, like.

You're like this, you're a good boy.

He said, I'm a great boy.

Right?

He's like, you wanna go do it again?

Yeah, I wanna do it again.

Right.

What do you do with that?

You know, and you have some people like, we, we, we can work with 'em.

You can work with the dogs.

Just mauled four or five people, killed 15 animals.

They're like, yeah, we can work with 'em.

We have a sanctuary for 'em.

Well go ahead.

Go ahead.

I'm no,

yeah, no, no, no, no.

Because then medication, medication is a tool, right?

It's not a cure.

So animals that are aggressive, regardless of what condition it is, it, it's a tool.

It helps you have behavior modification.

It helps.

But if, if you are just, I mean in, in my experience, go ahead.

A dog will go get adopted and will be on Trazodone and Gabapentin, right?

To just calm him down and it gets adopted and the dog is behaving really well.

And then what does the person say?

Well, it doesn't need these medications.

Look how good a dog he is.

Well, he's a good dog cause on all these medications.

And then not just the fact of weaning them off.

Most people don't wean 'em off.

Most people don't know how to wean him off.

They just cut him off cold Turkey.

Mm-hmm.

You cut anything off cold Turkey, it's gonna have serious problems.

Oh yeah.

And then there's where the issue comes, comes about.

I also, I have a close friend that had a dog, and the dog was having some,

some issues, some biting problems.

One of pet peeve is trainers that put electric collars on

dogs that have behavioral issues.

So you have a dog that's scared and then you're gonna zap it every time

that it behaves inappropriately.

So then what does the dog learn?

I'm scared and I'm getting zapped.

Mm-hmm.

So you have that zapper.

You're, you're not my friend.

So my friend, not knowing any better, takes the dog somewhere to get trained.

And these people put a zapper on this dog.

So they took a dog that was scared and made him into the dog that was aggressive.

Mm-hmm.

So then they put the dog on Trazodone, the dog is being okay.

Has one episode where it bites one of the kids in the head for no reason.

Okay.

You know, maybe something happened or whatever.

But then one day, this dog bit my friend in the face.

Stitches, like all sorts of problem.

And then they had to go and, and put this dog down.

So was there, was there a reason why this dog became aggressive?

Yeah.

It went to a trainer that was a shit trainer and put, and, and

basically used pain to try to control this dog and it came back at them.

However, the problem became, unfortunately there's no bring that dog back.

And then they had to make that decision of putting the, um, putting the dog down.

It was a very painful decision because it's, it's the family dog.

They had the dog since it was a puppy.

But you kind of have to make a decision that's right

for the dog.

And then a decision that's right for your family, for your kids.

You know, i, I've, I've seen in, um, hell last two weeks I've seen dog

on dog attacks and dogs rip off attacks and it's usually bigger to smaller dogs.

Okay.

I didn't say breed, I said it's bigger to smaller dogs.

Okay.

And I'm like, um, could have been avoided if the person was responsible

and hold onto their damn dog, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Um, you, I, I, I would never understand the whole, um, walking

your dog without a leash thing.

I don't under dog parks, I get, but other than that, leash your dog.

You know what I'm saying?

And not with a

retractable leash, please.

Whoa.

Oh my God.

Get,

get rid of that shit.

Okay.

And they're like this fluffy, come back and it's a

crack and it's like three blocks away.

Three blocks down.

I'm saying,

you know, you know, doing this job, you, you, we both see it.

You're like this, okay.

To me, uh, I'm gonna say you should have a license or permit

to own a dog or an animal.

Um, because every, so, um, we had a, um, a, a, a Swedish, I think she's Sweden.

She came over here to go to Animal Cruelty school, um, LETI,

and she was in level three.

We was in St.

Louis.

And I was out.

I was out.

I came back in and we was on break.

And everybody was kind of in the uproar because she said, they

said, you've traveled all the way here for animal cruelty?

She said, yeah, they said, and one of my guys, Joe, Joe

would know it, Joe Blankenship.

He said, um, he's a animal.

He said, I don't say why.

He's like, well, we don't have animal cruelty in Sweden.

Right.

And and they said what?

He's like, yeah.

They was like, what do you mean he's like this?

And she was like, well, I don't wanna say we are better than Americans,

but we don't abuse our animals.

We don't do it.

Right.

And everybody's like this.

Okay.

She's like, first of all, to have an animal over there, you

talking about 15 to $2,000.

Okay.

All types of rules.

I mean, any type of breed.

Okay.

Huh.

And, um, the animal is microchip tagged and everything.

There's no loose running dogs.

And she says, so I came over here to understand what the

fuck y'all talking about.

Sweet.

Called outfit.

Right.

And everybody was like, is America that messed up?

Yeah, it is.

Okay.

Yeah.

Don't get me wrong.

I mean, you know, and I've never been to Sweden, I've been to Sweden.

I don't speak German.

But, um, you know, it's just, you know, Oh, I, I got one for you.

Mm.

No, I'm, I'm gonna save that.

I'm writing stuff down for next time.

I got something for you.

Um, woo.

Yeah, I got something for you.

Next time we got talk this, woo, I got some stuff for you.

My show, next time we got talk,

I mean this.

Yeah, I, I definitely wanna have you back because this has been awesome, right?

I like to, to talk to people, like-minded people and learn from other people, right?

Yeah.

And, and like you've said, if we disagree, we disagree, and then we respectfully

disagree and then we learn from each other and we may disagree and then realize

that maybe the other one is right or we may again stay, stick with, with our

side.

But, you know, doc, I'll tell you like this, uh, I've, I'm 56, so I've

learned to like, Not be opinionated.

No, don't get me wrong.

Some things I'm like, yeah, no, but I gotta learn that

still some of I got older.

Their opinions.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah, no.

Okay.

But, um, most I'm like this, uh, let me think about that and don't gimme, I'm,

I'll say in my forties, I was like, okay, not even if I wanna go with you, but I see

your point and I actually see your point.

I don't say it.

I'm like this, I, I feel where you're coming from.

You know what I'm saying?

Um, you know, uh, um, I'm so laid back now again, I'm like this.

Okay, I hear you like that.

Uh, have you ever been to Canada?

Yes.

What, what

part?

Um, I've been to Toronto and I've been to Windsor, um, and

I can't remember the other.

Yeah.

Um, my, my son plays hockey.

Okay.

So we've been to, to Canada to play hockey.

Okay.

So I went to, uh, Vancouver and, uh, I didn't know it was like, uh,

like 75 or 73% Asian community.

I had no idea.

And if you, if any of your speak, if any of your followers like that,

Vancouver, very beautifully expensive.

Okay.

Had a great time.

Went up there like that.

They were so polite Canadian people up there.

So friendly.

So friendly.

It, it was weird.

I was like this, this is ridiculous.

Went into a, a restaurant where you need to have reservations.

Okay.

He was a one, he was a, he was the only person.

He did everything.

He cooked, he bartended, he made, he did everything.

He was a one one, what's this say?

One stop pony or someone?

One stop pony.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like this.

And I starving, starving.

And I was like, you know, I was like, please sir, can I

have a more You like that?

And um, he's like, uh, come on in.

Sat us down, and then I was like this.

I was like, appreciate it.

Gave us like that.

He's like, Hey, I got limited selections like that.

I was like, okay.

Okay.

The nicest people, I, one of the nicest people I've ever seen directions down

there watching somewhere down there watching the, um, the clock tower, gas

town, the gas clock tower, like that.

People was like, if you looking around like you need some help friendly people.

Okay.

I was just, wow.

I mean, the water, it was in the air so clean.

I was like, I was like, I, I, it was like smelling air for the first time.

I was like, oh my God, this is what air says, you know?

I'm like, beautiful people.

Expensive.

And, um, I don't know how it is up.

Do you have trains up in, um, um, Ohio Trains?

Trains?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

So the train system and bus system just ran perfect.

It was on time.

I was like, I didn't understand it.

I was like, you know, cause I'm from New York, you know, he had like,

you know the, the conductors see you coming and put his finger up like this.

Just going, my head just goes what I'm saying, I was like,

I got, know what I'm saying?

But closing