I love diverse voices on this topic. Males have aging parents too! Imagine that.

Today we talk to Paul, who has been estranged from his mother for over 20 years. She is aging, currently diagnosed with breast cancer, and we explore his thoughts and approach in an open conversation. Watch for the cliffhanger at the end...

Standard caveats:

• This is a judgement free space
• Take what helps, leave the rest
• No "shoulds" allowed - this is about curiosity and sharing

Thank you SO much for listening and supporting this project.

If you would like to dig deeper - check out my upcoming course and join the waitlist.

Rebecca

Disclaimer: The information presented on this podcast is solely for information purposes. We do not provide medical, legal, financial, or other professional advice through this podcast and we are not responsible for any errors or omissions. It is your responsibility to seek advice from a licensed professional. Any actions you take are done at your own risk.

I've always been jealous of like friends of mine that their parents

are so so involved in their lives and so positive and just like these model

parents and even throughout when I was in high school, I would wanted to

be around those people, like all my friends that had parents like that.

I just wanted to be part of the team.

Even if I was just the water boy.

I just wanna be part, I wanna be around them.

I want to hear that, how they interact so that when I'm older and I have my

own family and I have like a spouse and, and kids or, or, and a, and a house

and dogs and their friends over, I, I want to be, I want to be like those

kids so that I can know what, what it's.

What are they, what are the words that they're saying or what are the things

that they do to that my parents don't do?

How did you know that there was different?

For one, both parents were there and I always, always had one parent at home.

So there's the practical fact that they had two when you had one.

Right.

And you were raised by a single mom, right.

I was raised by a single mom as, as at an early age.

My parents got divorced when I was like five.

I had five.

I was five.

My brother was three, and my sister was a year old.

And so I always had one parent at home.

Eventually, eventually, eventually.

He did have a stepdad.

I did have a stepdad, but it was, he, they were married and he would move in

and out of the house multiple times.

And the fact that he was more of he was, he was an alcoholic for one.

And we had, I mean, issues of that on a regular basis like.

Waking me up in the middle of the night with a, he, he would start a fire in

a, in a a pan to make the fire, the smoke alarms go off to test us to see

if, what would we do in a real fire?

Because he's, he was drunk and wanted to see, or he'd come home and, and

we, he wanted to play basketball because he was upset that I beat

him in a game earlier that day.

And he wants a rematch now.

So the model you had for Yeah.

That was a husband or a father at home?

I had, I had that as a mother to father and I wanted to be, I gravitated to, to

friends of mine that, that they had both parents home and they had, they were

just always there and they were so nice.

Like they don't cuss at each other.

They don't talk bad about the other person.

Well, that's weird.

I mean, what are they doing that they didn't do that?

Or why, why won't they do that to each other?

And I just like, I was so fascinated by what I would call, whatever this

definition is, just normal parenting or normal it's a better life.

Yeah.

That, that better life.

I guess.

Can you talk about how you became estranged from your mom?

Are you comfortable talking about that?

Sure.

So when I was at school you know how, well most people don't know, but when

you, in, back in the nineties when you would go away to school, there wouldn't

be all these these people handing out flyers for like, Hey, you sign up for this

credit card and, and you get you'll get a t-shirt and sign up, get this credit card.

And you in college, like early college Yeah.

In college, in like the nineties, you would sign up for

these credit cards and, and.

You get a thousand dollars or $500 and I went to school and

I didn't have very much money.

I mean, I had to go, it was all on, on grants and loans and everything.

So I would get a credit card just so that I could have some extra

spending money for what have you.

And then my mom would, she'd say, oh, I'll pay it.

I'll pay this mo, I'll pay those monthly payment.

Well stuff was, I was away at school.

My mother and my mother would have, she would get those at, at my home,

my home of record, and then she would sign up for them as well in my name.

So, and she would keep the cards in her name.

So she racked up close to like $10,000 in, in debt.

And I didn't know this until a couple years later, after when I was home

and I was like, there was all these, these envelopes in my name that final

notice, no payment final notice.

Collections such and such.

And I'm like, what is this?

And she's like, oh, nothing.

Don't worry about that, that, well couple, I, I was, a couple years down the road, I

went to get a loan to try to buy a house.

And they're like, well, Paul what, what about this credit card debt?

And I was like, oh, no, I don't have any credit card debts.

I that's, that's, I don't have any like, oh yeah, well you, I see here there's

like seven credit cards in your name.

And I'm like, no, I don't have credit cards.

And I was literally arguing with the loan person about this.

And yeah, it turns out it was like $10,000.

And so I called her and I confronted her.

She's like, yeah, I I, I did get 'em in your name.

And I was like, well mom I'm trying to buy a house there,

I can't buy the house now.

I'm like, well, I'm sorry.

I wish there's something else I could do.

And I just kind of, and I was up very upset and just kind of hype

the phone and did my own thing.

Well, it just happened to be at the time where I was kind of having a relationship

with my father, and my father was like, Paul it's not that I don't believe

you but I mean, anybody can say this.

So you can kind of do me a favor and let's call her.

And I want you to ask her the question and, and say, kind of ask her

about the debt and like ask her.

And this is back when you had landlines and mul, multiple people could be on a

different line while you're on the, on one line, the old freeway calling, right?

Yeah.

Well, no, I was at his house.

Oh, okay.

I, I called from his house but I did the Star 68, so you couldn't see the number.

And he was on the other phone just listening in on mute.

And I asked her, and she was like, Paul, look, I know owe you the money.

I just, I don't have the money right now, and I, I just can't pay it.

I'm sorry.

You're gonna have to figure something out.

And I said, mom, but you understand I, this is gonna affect me for years.

How could you do this?

Like, it just happens Paul.

And I, I just can't help you out anymore.

So I said, and I just said, okay, that's fine.

So I hung up the phone and my, my father was actually crying because he's like,

I can't believe she actually said that.

I actually heard, I know her voice I know what she sounds like.

That was actually her.

And she said it on the phone.

And ever since that, I just didn't have a relationship with her because

in my mind, my mind was like, how could you steal money from your kid?

I'm like, I wouldn't steal money from my dogs.

I wouldn't steal, I wouldn't take their something away from

them or much less my child, I mean, I just couldn't believe that.

And I just decided, I was like, you know what?

I don't wanna be around a person.

If she's willing to do that with no remorse.

With no remorse, what else is she willing to do?

I just needed to just cut it off and just say, you know what?

You go your way.

And I do my, I go my way.

Did you officially declare that?

Did you like to ever, ever talk to her since that day?

I didn't declare it.

And, and I didn't physically say it, I just kind of just,

just said, mom, you know what?

I want to, I'm gonna do my own thing and I'm gonna be over here and I, it,

it just, she never tried to reach out, she's never tried to reach out to me.

And now that I'm, I mean, I'm going on, this is about 27 years now.

I was 21 at the time and now I'm 47.

I've talked to her in the 27 years.

I've talked to her a total of like four times.

And it's all because of either deaths or or pretty much all deaths.

It was a death of an aunt.

I called her.

It was a death of my grandmother who she was in the hospital and

she was dying and I went to go see her before she passed away.

And that's pretty much about it.

So I've talked to people who are afraid to estr for whatever reason,

because of regret that their parent could pass away and they would

feel like they didn't do enough.

And sometimes it doesn't even matter what the relationship was or if

it was abusive or manipulative.

It's like, so where, how do you think your brain is different?

So you could get a phone call tomorrow saying that she passed away and you would

be like, like what was your brain saying?

So to answer your first question about the regret thing, I don't, this is

gonna be sound very cold, but I do, I try not to live my life and regret.

I made a decision.

I've decided that's the decision I'm gonna stick with and and you like your reasons?

Yes.

I can literally.

There's about four things in my life that I've ever regretted

either doing or not doing.

And I've, I, because those literally four things, like, man, I cannot believe I did

that, or I didn't do anything about that.

But to answer your question, your second part of that question is that

she was actually she was actually diagnosed with cancer about a

year to a year and a half ago.

How did you know this, y'all, you have a brother that's still in touch with her?

No my, my, my middle brother, which is actually my brother I mean, we

have, they're both, both same parents.

He'd actually reached out to me by Facebook messenger saying, Hey, I don't

know if you knew this, but you know, mom mom has cancer, she has breast

cancer, and thought she would know.

And just kind of with this whole thing, which.

That's a whole nother podcast, my brother and I.

But that's how I found out.

And I don't know what stage or what, what have you, but that's,

that's how I pretty much found out.

And then I, I kind of I thought to myself, I was like, well,

should I reach out to her?

And then part of me is like, well, Paul, though, that okay, I mean, if you reach

out to her, it's because are you reaching out to her because she has cancer or

are you reaching out, reaching out to her because she could possibly die?

Or are you reaching out to her because you'll feel guilty if she dies?

Or are you gonna help her with her cancer?

I was asking myself all these questions like, well, why are

you gonna reach out to her?

But then at the same time, I'm like, well, she hasn't reached out to me in the

27 years just to see how, how I'm doing.

So why would I want to reach out to her for, because she has cancer.

I mean God willing, she, she, she caught it early enough and she lives in a a

pretty good cancer city in Houston.

I mean, they have some really good cancer hospitals there.

So God willing, she got a good doctor and, and she'll get past this so

I, I just kind of thought, well, I mean, that's, I hope she's, I'll pray

for her and I hope she's doing good, but I don't wanna reach out to her

for that, just cuz she has cancer.

Do you have her contact in your phone?

Do I?

No, I do not.

So you were gonna reach out to her.

What would that even look like?

I would actually reach out to her sister who we, and her and I had,

have had contact with each other about a year, almost two years ago.

My aunt, her, her youngest sister reached out to me to, by Facebook Messenger

saying that my mother had given her two big plastic bins of, of all my photos.

Personal information.

I mean, personal photos, yearbooks, memorabilia.

Memorabilia.

Yeah.

For lack of a better word.

Like a kid?

Yeah.

Like literally from, I was a, a baby till high school, my yearbooks.

And she reached out to me and said, Hey, your mom dropped us off.

You want this?

You come by.

I, I, the funny thing is, at the time I lived like 15, 10

minutes from away from her house.

You know your mom?

No, my aunt.

Your aunt?

My aunt.

Where does your mom live?

My aunt, my mother lives in.

Oh, you said Houston.

Houston.

You just said Houston.

Okay.

And most of my family lives here in San Antonio.

Which is another thing is that I probably have about a good I probably have about

10 cousins and three or two aunts and an uncle that live here in San Antonio.

And then my mother's and my sister and my brother are the

only ones that live in Houston.

Or Sugarland actually.

Has anybody in that family ever questioned you about it?

Like your aunt, when you went to see her, did she say No?

Hey, Paul, like, what's going on?

Or No.

Is that like your family culture?

Like nobody's gonna say Yeah.

That, that is the culture they call your mom or they, you don't talk about it.

They, it, it is just kind of like that's between you two

and this is between us, okay.

One of my uncles, he would show up to one of the jobs that I

had because he was friends.

Just happened to be friends with my, one of my, my brother-in-law at the time.

And he would show up to the dealership just to say hi to me.

That's pretty much about, we wouldn't discuss my mother, we wouldn't discuss

my sister, my brother, and which I don't have a relationship with my

sister and my brother as well, because they side with my mother saying, well

well Paul, that's your mom though.

How could you do that to your mom?

How could you not talk to, so you did get some pushback from

your siblings, from one sibling?

My brother.

Your, your brother?

My brother.

Not your sister.

My sister, not so much.

We didn't, we, there was a, there's a three year age gap, three or

actually four year age gap between us.

So it was just different when I was 17, she was 13 when I was 21, she

was so I, I, my brother and I had more disagreements over not talking to my

mother because for other stuff as well.

But they pretty much decided with her and said, Hey Paul,

I mean, but she's your mom.

What do you, what what, are you not gonna have a relationship with your mom?

Like, yeah, that's exactly what I'm gonna do.

That was my brother.

It was the only one that ever got pushback from, how did you eventually pay that off?

Or what happened?

Like, did she ever give you any money or?

No, I I had to write, well, when I bought the house, I had to write to

the, to the lending company saying, That this was fraudulent and that I

had nothing to do with this, and I had to send an affidavit saying that I did

not sign up for these, these cards.

So they eventually somehow, like fell off your credit report or?

Well, they were written off after seven years.

And at the time the mortgage company that I was going through was a one

of my best friends from high school.

His parents owned the mortgage company and they pretty much just said, you

know what, we'll just look past this and we'll give you the mortgage and

we'll set up the mortgage for you.

Of course we'll sell it off, but you'll have the mortgage, no problem.

What if she had called you and said, I'm really sorry, I'm working a

second job to try to pay this off.

What, what would that look like?

I, I, I think I would've had a little bit, I would've had more sympathy for it.

I'd have had more understanding, I guess.

It's so hard to to kind of even think about what ifs because what

ifs have never been an option because, I mean, it's been 27 years.

Do you think you are a good son to my mother?

Just and I guess to your mom or dad?

I, is that cross maybe?

Is that a question you ask yourself?

Oh, yeah.

I act, I, I mean, I, I question if, if if this is right I mean, I think all of us

have I, I, I have a very, I have always had a problem of, of people pleasing.

I've always, I, I'm always the favorite and I love, I

relish that I'm the favorite.

I'm the, who's favorite are you?

I want everybody.

I, I'm on everybody.

I wanna be the favorite to everybody, but, but who were you the favorite to?

Where did you get addicted to them?

My mother.

I was the oldest.

You your mom's favorite.

I, I was my mom's favorite until my sister came around because she was a girl.

She was just a girl.

Of course I was my mom's favorite because I took care of, I took, I

was I took care of everybody else and I could take care of her as well.

What was your relationship like right before this credit

card fraud thing happened?

Was it strong relationship?

Was it, it was, it had had gotten, it had gotten rocky because when I left for

school, my brother, I wasn't there to take care of my brother and my sister

and, and the things around the house.

And then also my mother as well, because my mother worked for the post office.

So she's up at one, two o'clock in the morning.

She'll work till.

She'll be at, in, at the post office till noon, one, two o'clock, depending.

And then she'd come home and sleep and then st do this

over and over again every day.

So I was the parent who had to got, get everybody up in the morning make

sure everybody ate and put them on the, everybody on the bus got dressed.

And then as I got older, I was the one that had to pick him up and drop him

off and go do the grocery shopping and run the errands and, and do all that.

So when I left, it was like, okay, my brother started, started

having problems in high school with attendance, with authority,

with, with many very many things.

And I was there to be the buffer between him and mom.

And many times he, he got kicked outta the house because he was doing stupid things.

He'd get arrested or he'd get caught doing stupid things stealing or

running credit cards, so do you think that you were the favorite because.

She liked you the most, or because you did the most task, you did the

higher, highest number of necessary tasks to keep the house going.

And maybe that's an unfair question.

Maybe you could be wrong.

No, that's a perfect question.

I was the favorite to her because I was, I took care of, I took care of

the most check marks on, on the list.

So it wasn't, Paul, you're funny or you're smart, or you're kind.

No, it's while you did the dishes five times this week.

Mm-hmm.

And so you, you engen, I mean, it, it would be very easy to understand that you

would develop sort of this task master.

It was, I would, I would even go farther and say, it wasn't taskmaster.

It was, we were business partners.

You handled this side, I handled this side.

You take care of this.

I take care of this, you handle this.

I handled this.

So at the end of the day when your business partner stole

money from me, You mm-hmm.

At least a story in your head mm-hmm.

Was that she violated some trust, some trust that you felt like you

had earned over a period of decades.

I'm a very big ad advocate of trust and of loyalty.

In my, the way I was raised, my, my thought processes

are, I don't trust words.

Words are very mean, nothing to me.

They are just air to me that come outta your mouth.

Where actions are more, they mean 10 times 10 to the 10th, power more.

And you learned that from just being the way I, I grew, grew up.

So your family, your Yes.

In my family, yes.

Social structure.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

Yes.

So they valued actions way more than, than words.

Okay.

Yes.

And then and then to add on top of that, like one of her sisters I was the

favorite of this, of one of her sisters because she couldn't have children.

And I just came along at a point where my mother was working a lot and I was a

little boy and she would take care of me.

So it was like, I was her kid at night and I was my mom's kid during the day

because my mom worked nights and I was during, I was with her at night, so

I Was your mom warm or affectionate or?

No, my mom like kind, how would you describe her?

Hardened.

Militant.

Militant.

Her, her, her idea of fun is what are we gonna clean today?

What are we gonna organize today?

The, we we'll go, we get to do, we'll go do this, but we have to do this first.

It's tit for time.

And I have a bad habit personally.

I have a bad habit.

Like, okay, we need to do this, and then we can go have fun.

What, what's the warmest or highest memory you have of her?

What was her best element?

My betten is probably my mom, my mom's work ethic.

I mean, she, she raised three kids on a civil service, a

postal employee's salary.

And she did the best she could with what she had which I was very

blessed that she worked for civil service because they have great

benefits in terms of medical benefits.

We were we never, whenever went to the hospital, it was like, no big deal.

The post service will pay for it all, and she could work as little or as she could

work her 40 hours, or she could work 70 hours if she wanted to make extra money.

That was just the way the first office was back in those days.

So her work ethic is one that.

I, I, I hope I have a, a great work that could work ethic because of her.

So when you look back at, at your age now, there isn't a neuron in your brain

that's like, I should call her, I should reconnect, I should, I I do have those,

those thoughts and those feelings.

But I've gone to a lot of therapy sessions and about, about her

specifically and how she is the, the, she's the voice in my head.

She's constantly until about until probably my, my early thirties,

she was the voice of my head.

What did it sound like?

Ooh, this is a road we're gonna go down.

It is always like, well, Paul, you have to do it.

You're an example to your brother and sister.

Make sure you do it right.

What am I gonna do with you, Paul?

If you can't do it right, what do you, how do you expect your

brother and sister to do it?

Right?

Yeah.

That's rough.

Hmm.

So like the whole fate of your brother and sister's behavior and ethos and everything

was on how you modeled for them.

Mm-hmm.

And you had that thought in your head, I better do this.

Right.

And that follows you until you came to a point where, how did you

get that voice outta your head?

A lot of therapy.

A lot of I can't keep doing this to myself.

There's more to life than that voice in my head.

I mean, just, just telling myself that's, that's not it's, it's,

there's gotta be more than this.

There's gotta be more than this.

What, what's the voice now?

Is it your voice?

The, the voice is mine now.

It's okay.

I, I don't, I don't have voices in my head.

Okay.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that.

I don't, I don't have a voice in my head, but I always have it's almost

like something on my shoulder like, come on Paul, you gotta suck it up.

You're tired sticking get into another gear, I know you're,

I know you're frustrated.

It's no big deal.

Just focus.

I, when I used to work for this, this youth group where I would, I would tell

kids all the time, like we'd go hunting and fishing and, and, and it would go

shoot stuff and stuff like, I would say they'd get so worked up about something.

I'm like, whoa.

Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop.

Okay.

This is supposed to be fun.

Okay.

We're shooting clays we're shooting shotguns.

Don't get so worked up over the, over the clays.

Try to hit the clays.

This is supposed to be fun.

So let's take it back to basics.

Let's just worry about following the clay the little beat

and just do make this fun.

So I have, I turn things into a game constantly in my head.

Like whatever it is.

Like, okay, let's, I say, this is gonna take me 20 minutes to do.

Let's see if I can do it.

15 minutes.

I constantly played games in my head with myself and, and like, you

can't, you can't take care of this.

There's no way you can do this.

Okay, well let's, let's just try, let's just try.

Let's see what I can do.

So that's the voice in my head.

That is mine.

Now have you felt Judgment from anybody in your life who has come to know

that you're estranged from your mom.

And I'm sure that's not something you bring up at like, no, actually

it's gonna be, this is funny, but it's actually the opposite.

I have people that know one of my best friends from high school, he

used to tell me all the time, it's like Paul, it's the craziest thing.

I've met your mom's side of the family and I've met your dad's side of the family.

How are you so normal?

Like, and, and it was a joke.

I mean, I would laugh, just like you laughed.

I like, like, what are you talking about?

Like, dude, seriously, I've met your parent, your mom's side of the family.

I'm like, dude, they're crazy.

And I met your dad's side.

They're crazy too.

How are you?

Like normal, whatever that means.

Whatever normal is.

And, but no, I haven't, I haven't gotten any, no.

I, I've met people that know my mother and or know that side

of the family and they're like, oh, I, I How's your mom doing?

I'm like, oh, good, good.

But it's almost, it's, it's one of these things where like they're old,

old, old family friends that they went to church with long, long time ago,

and they're just asking to be nice.

I don't know if they're asking to be nice if they're just asking out of obligation.

Just like, oh, how's your mom doing?

Oh, I'm good.

Small talk.

Yeah, small talk.

So it sounds like you were able to set a boundary, like a, a thick

boundary and it's more of a, it's like a great wall of China boundary.

It's more than a boundary.

It is.

You had a, you had a thought, a decision mm-hmm.

That, that you had been something had been trespassed.

Mm-hmm.

And you set the boundary and you observed it.

Right.

And there are a lot of people who, once you get past some of the mental drama,

are jealous of how somebody could come to.

What, what some people may describe as like the courage or conviction mm-hmm.

That almost in a protective way, like, I have been mistreated.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm gonna set a boundary and observe it the rest of my life.

That's actually unusual.

Yeah.

Like a lot of the times that I'm talking to people about their parents,

it's like, God, I wish I could set this boundary, but, but, but, but,

but like, where does that come from?

I, maybe we've already talked about it, but can you think of anything else?

Like to people that are either wanting to set that boundary or have set the

boundary and have gone back over it?

Because this is, this is the way, now this is gonna sound very, very cold.

Very matter of fact.

I mean, as a doctor, you, you, I think you'll, you'll get it even more

is that I considered that part my mother and all her stuff a cancer.

And what I did is I had cancer, the arm.

And I cut the arm off.

And to the point where I understood by cutting the arm off, I was

only gonna have one arm now.

And if something happens to this arm to the other arm, I can't

go back and put the arm back on.

So, and you knew this a as it was happening?

Yes.

And I know it's gonna be painful and I know that, that maybe as I'm older

I might regret it, but as of right now, this is the best thing for me is

to cut it off and just get rid of it.

So if you had grown up as a people pleaser, how did it come about that you

did sort of the opposite of that, because a people pleaser would've been like, yeah,

mom, do you want an eighth credit card?

Yeah.

Sounds like you're struggling.

And, and I've gotten this before, I've, I've asked myself before because, I,

I, I am a, i, I am a people pleaser.

But it all came down to the loyalty and like to the, and

like, how could you do this?

I mean, you crossed the line that, that, like, I, I, I go back to, I would

never take anything away from my niece and nephews much less, I wouldn't

take a piece of food away from them if they're putting in their mouth if, if

it was the last bottled water that we have on the, on, on a deserted island,

I'm not gonna take it away from them.

I'm like, just, you take it you, you're younger, you take it.

I would never do that to them, but she did that to her own child, and I

cannot, I cannot comprehend doing that.

So it was almost like a gift in a way.

Mm-hmm.

That it was so egregious.

Because if it had been one credit card for a hundred bucks mm-hmm.

That might have been like, and, and again, maybe this is

silly to go back, but like, no.

To me it seems like the dose of disloyalty was so high and so shocking to you mm-hmm.

At that point in your life and was impacting a decision you were trying

to make, which was to buy a home.

It was, it was the fact that she did it, it was the fact that she, she,

she acknowledged she did it and that the fact that she's not gonna try to

help to pay it off and that, I'm just gonna have to figure it out by myself.

So the most painful part of the transaction for you, was it that she

stole the money and committed fraud or was it that she wasn't going to

figure out a way to make it right?

Or was it, were the, those equal, like if you had to kind of parcel out, like

where is the, where is the, the gut punch.

Is it the, that she wasn't gonna fig fix, she wasn't gonna help me figure

this away, figure out how to fix this.

So there was an abandonment mm-hmm.

At the solutions point.

So it sounds like it was forgivable that she made a horrible mistake

and exercise Poor judgment.

Yeah.

And, and committed fraud and took out money.

But to you, the, the, the gut punch wasn't maybe even that.

It was that when push came to shoved, she wasn't going to work the extra shifts,

it was cut back on something else.

I know I did it, Paul, but I can't pay you back and I can't help you.

Those, that secrets of a sec, sequence of words was like, wow, okay, that's fine.

So if that made my decision a lot easier, let's just put it that way.

So if she had said, I did it, Paul, I'm really struggling right now.

Give me a week or two to figure this out.

I'll see what I can do.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, maybe, maybe I It sounds like you're very that's what I, that's what

I think is a, an interesting strength of, like, you feel very confident

about the way that went, and I think that that is protective, right?

Yeah.

Because I think a lot of people waffle over time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or things will happen, like a cancer diagnosis a new grandbaby whatever.

Then there's this thing, but like, your confidence has

carried you for over two decades.

So it's funny, you, you brought up a grandbaby.

So about five years ago my wife and I had found out we were

pregnant, kind of out of the blue.

I mean, I was 42, 43 years old.

And after I got over the whole.

Oh my gosh, she's pregnant.

We went to the doctor thinking that there was, there was something wrong

that they were gonna have to run tests.

The first thing they did was run a a pregnancy test.

We like, oh, we don't have to run those tests.

Now you're pregnant.

And like after that, that surprise of like, oh crap, I'm 42 years old, gonna be

a parent, or 43, you're gonna be a parent.

One of the first things I hit my, in my head was, that popped into my

head was, I wonder if she'll come around because I'm gonna have a baby.

That's that it would be something of me.

I wonder just one of the the little, like for a split second, I

thought, I'm curious if she would come around if, if all of a sudden I

had a baby that has my, is from me.

And, and she knows that that we had a baby together.

I, I, I was, I was, and I actually had this conversation with my wife my

father and my stepmom about that.

And my stepmom was like, I'm so glad you said that cuz I thought the same

thing too and I thought to myself, it would not surprise me that a cuz

historic, you hear throughout the stories that a baby changes everything.

A baby changes forgives all the sins and, and all the wrongs.

Could that have, could that have, have changed everything or could we have gone

down a different road because of a baby?

Man, I don't know.

So did you think of that in a positive way?

Like, I, I hope this makes her turn around and fixes it or it was more neutral?

Like it was negative?

It was negative.

It was negative.

Like, I wonder shit come around now.

It caused drama.

Yeah.

Oh, it wasn't like, no, no.

Maybe everything will be okay.

No, no, no.

It was like, I wonder what kind of drama she'll show.

Cuz.

I don't know the laws, but I know that there are grandparent laws in the state

of Texas, at least I think there are.

And I don't know what she could do.

What would she do legally hire an attorney and say, well, that's my

grandbaby, here's my dna, that's my son, and I wanna see that baby.

Even if, if I had to go I have to show up at the San Antonio Police

Department or Bear County police department to see that baby.

I'm like, I wouldn't put a pastor because I digress.

Is that when my parents were divorced, she used to play all kinds of games

with my, my father at the time.

Like, she'd say, oh yeah, come and pick him up.

And she would send us to our friend's house for like the weekend or her

cousin's house for the weekend, saying, oh, are you coming this weekend?

Oh, no, they're not here.

They're at they're, they're at somebody else's house she would always just play

these manipulative games with my father.

But that's another podcast, I guess.

Wow.

Yeah.

So did, did you ever get and I know I've asked you a million

questions, I won't ask you anymore.

No.

No.

Did you ever get to a point where either from knowing her family or

her talking that you understood the context of her behavior?

Yes.

She was her father's favorite daughter or favorite child?

She was the favorite because she was the prettiest one.

She was the most outgoing.

She was the head cheerleader dating the head football,

co the head football player.

She was the pep squad.

She was the head cheerleader.

She was every, she tried, she was just most outgoing and, and she knew everybody.

And She, she manipulated him into, into giving her things

because she was the, the favorite.

And she would get a car because she didn't, he didn't want her, her b

her his baby to, to walk to work or have friends take her to work.

She not, when I would kind of piece, piece things together and be like, man,

she was manipulating people all the time.

She would manipulate my, my father, she manipulated my stepfather it was, she

would play a game in that she could, I I, I, I've told my wife this before, she, we

would play a game, say Uno, and she would try to beat me and I would beat her in

the game and she would make me feel bad.

For beating her.

And so she, so she would manipulate me into feeling bad.

Like, I can't, are you, you beat your mom?

Will you how could you beat my, your mom like that?

I mean, you're supposed to let her win.

And it was just constant.

It was a constant manipulation about, she was always looking for angles.

She was always looking for how to get over on somebody or, or a situation.

And I learned I learned pretty much how to do the same thing from her

because I learned from the master and I got to the point where I would, I

would know when she was doing something and I would just cut it off and stop.

And then when it was funny, cuz I remember there was a time where she was trying

to manipulate me and I caught her in it.

And I told her, I was like don't try to turn this around.

Well, she got so upset.

She went straight to her room, she ran, ran into her room and locked the door.

So then what the next time I learned, okay, I'm gonna do that again, but first

thing I'm gonna do is run to her room and open it, keep run to her room and sit

in her room before she gets in there.

Oh God.

Wow.

So it was almost like the teacher and the student.

Now I'm the teacher cuz I'm, I've learned everybody in your moves

and I know exactly how, what you're gonna do before you actually do them.

Well, those sound like two very different people and, and obviously they're not,

but like the pep squad leader and the homecoming queen or whatever,

like that whole persona and then sort of being a militant single mother.

Like how did those become congruent?

Like, how do you see that?

Well, one, she so, so for instance, just in, in your mind, keep,

keep, keep this in your head.

She let's see, I was, when I was born, see she's, she was 20 and then she got.

Pregnant, or she had another baby at 22, and then at 24 as a

24 year old, she had three kids and she is single living at home.

So she had to be mother and father for three children.

I mean, I mean, you've had twins.

How hard is it to have two babies a one-year-old and a three-year-old,

and then a five-year-old, and you have to it's like round up

cats she had to be that way.

The, the, the situation dictated her to be like that.

And she had to be militant in that.

The fact was, this house is gonna be a mess if I don't

have help somebody help me.

And she used to joke around I always wanted to use the dishwasher.

And she would joke around like, why do I have to use a dishwasher?

I have three dishwashers.

Interesting.

So I have, now you made me ask another question.

No problem.

So give more information.

Not a problem.

So your dad left your family mm-hmm.

With three children, age four and under.

Yes.

And you have a relationship with him.

Not a good one, but he's in your life.

Yes.

And so how are those reconciled?

Okay.

So to answer that's, that's a hard question.

That's multiple questions or multiple answers, I guess.

Reconciled in.

It was pretty much it was actually my ex-wife that wanted to meet him for, for

whatever odd reason sh I told her that.

So you were estranged from him as well for a period of time?

Yeah.

Oh, I was probably about a good.

About seven, eight years from like 15 to like 20, 21, 22.

So right around the time your mom betrayed you.

Yeah.

Then when you said your dad kind of came into your life mm-hmm.

And you forgave him or didn't have any drama around?

I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I forgave him.

I wouldn't go that, that strong.

I would say I wanted a parental figure in my life and he's the lesser two evils.

Ah, okay.

So, so your brain thought, okay, that sucked.

And I'm not talking to her anymore.

At least this guy's around.

He's, he's biologically apparent.

Yes.

And I'll, I'm not gonna excommunicate both at this moment.

So, and it just happened to be, I was cutting one off and then one of 'em

just happened to show up around there, to show up around at the same time.

It was, for lack of a better word, happenstance.

I see.

Okay.

And so there, that relationship existed.

Mm-hmm.

And then there was a point at which you were married and then

your spouse wanted to meet them.

Mm-hmm.

And then that relationship got to be more frequent.

Yeah.

We, we had some common interest and, and that kind of helped.

And then I was living here in San Antonio, so it was easier to see him

I lived close to your regiment house.

Oh, I don't if I should say that.

I lived on the north side and he lives to the south side.

And to go from the north side to the south side, it was 10 15 minute drive.

We'd meet for dinner at first and just kind of talk, and we kind of

talked about a lot of things that My mother would do, and a lot of things,

hey, a lot of things that my brother would do to kind of manipulate the

situation of him and i's relationship.

So what does that relationship look like now?

My father and I?

Yeah.

My father and I his health has kind of de deteriorated a lot in probably

the last two years, maybe three years.

And now our relationship

Hi.

Hi.

Our relationship now is, is it's, I keep it in a distance for, for many reasons.

One, I don't really do the drama.

And I don't really I don't need to know about my siblings

other than my half-brother.

I have a half-brother.

It's my mom and my, my dad and my stepmother have a son and he's 16

years different, younger than I am.

So we don't have that much relationship.

We don't have that much in common with each other, other than we're guys.

But he, he's, he's getting he just got married actually on Monday.

And I, I kind of feel like in the last year we've, we've gotten a little

bit closer because he's gonna be married and I've been married and

I know what marriage life is like.

So and it's, it's kind of it that's nice and new and kind of fresh.

But him and i's relationship is, is at arm's length what you said

that his health is deteriorating.

What, if any, expectation do you have to help take care of him?

I, I can't help, I can't take care of him.

I don't have, I'm a very patient person.

I don't have that kind of patience.

What do you mean?

He is a very, he's, he's a very old, he, he's gotten very old and

bitter and he, he's gotten just bitter and very rough in his old age.

He, he feels like everybody's kind of everybody just wants something from

him, and I would, my, my stepmother jokes around sometimes, sometimes

I would, I, I, I, I used to work on the south side and I, I wouldn't come

until noon on this on certain days.

So I'd call him and say, Hey I'm gonna be, I'm gonna

come by the house, pick you up.

Just go to breakfast.

Why?

What's wrong?

What happened?

What do you need?

Like, I'm hungry.

He's like, okay, well, but why do you need me to go with you?

And my mom would be in the same room like, Hey, stupid.

Your stepmom.

My stepmom, my stepmom would be in the, in the back room saying, Hey, stupid.

He just wants to go eat with you.

That's all I wanted.

Just go have breakfast taco with somebody, and I'll eat by myself.

So if a hospital called you and said, your dad's getting outta the hospital, he can't

get ahold of your brother, your stepmom, your sister, can you please come get him?

What would you say?

I'll go get you.

You would go get him?

Mm-hmm.

And where would you, what if he had to come home with you?

That's gonna be tough because I live in 900 square feet

and I work in 200 of those.

I sleep in another 200.

So you've made it physically impossible for him to come?

As of right now?

Yes.

Okay.

Well that makes sense.

For luckily or for, I wouldn't, I don't wanna say luckily, or it just

happens to be the situation right now.

I live in 952 square feet of living area of bliss.

952 squared.

Yes.

900 plus feet of, of bliss.

Well, I, I appreciate you sharing, and I, I know it's not easy.

I do think it's important.

One of the things I wanna prioritize is also getting male voices.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think it can be maybe a little bit too exclusive to

kind of think of solely the, the female experience with this.

And, and really, I mean, you're, you're married, these

experiences are shared experiences between usually both partners.

I, I will end with I, I want to end with this, is that I a friend of mine actually

he posted something on, on, on Facebook one day and I didn't realize how much.

You know how much it affected me.

Like, wow.

A lot of my friends that are, that I grew up with a lot of 'em

grew up at single parent homes and a lot of 'em were the mothers.

And he posted something about, he's married, he has kids now, and he's a,

basketball coach for a team in Houston.

And he's saying the same thing about, about his, his players saying that a

lot of his parent, a lot of his kids come from single parent home now and

that a lot of the fathers have kind of just drift away or not involved anymore.

And that he remembers how when he was a kid, he lived with his mother and he was,

there was other siblings, but the only father figure around him was his coach.

Because a lot of our coaches most of 'em are men and most of the sports

that we play and that his, his.

Only male interaction, for most part as a parent was his coach.

And I thought the same thing too.

I was like all of my coaches that I had, I became so close to them,

almost to the point where they were my father, father figures in that.

And kind of to add on to this, I mean, this is how, how small of a world

this place in San Antonio is, is that my wife actually went to go, went

to the dentist, and she was getting her teeth cleaned by the hygienist.

And the hygienist like, oh.

She's small talk, Hey, where you from?

Oh, I'm, I'm we used to live in Sugarland, but now they've been San

Oh, my, my husband's from Sugarland.

Oh yeah.

Oh really?

Oh wow.

That's great.

Well, my where did your husband, where'd your husband go to high school and go?

What'd you, Keer High School.

My husband used to coach at Kempner High School.

And it turns out that her husband is one of my old coaches.

Oh, wow.

And one of my, one of my favorite coaches, and I, I was so close to him

because he taught multiple sports and he was also, I think the, one

of the teachers, my English teachers, something like that, just happened to

be, and him and I became very close.

Even when I, after I left school, I went back to to a game.

And I just happened to see him.

And I was so happy to see him because I hadn't seen him in so many years.

And he, but I remember him being a, just this person in my life, like that

was like a father to me at the time.

And my, like I said, my friend posted this and I never, it never hit me

even at, this was by last year.

I was 46 years old and never understood like coaches or dads and.

For one reason or another, you grow up in a single parent home with a mom, and the

only person that's a dad is your coach.

He's gonna yell at you.

He's gonna tell you that you messed up.

He's gonna tell you that you did a great job.

He's gonna tell you that, you know what, that was good, but a

better way to do this is this.

And he shows up and he shows up to every practice and every game.

And that, that thought literally just like floored me.

Like I literally, like, I could not believe I was 46 years old

and I never thought about that.

It just You didn't talk to her?

Who?

The hygienist husband?

No.

She ended up getting another job and we, I, I, I could have reached out to him

on Facebook, but I just, it, it was, I was, I, I, I was like, I felt so awkward.

Like I hadn't talked to him in years and I didn't wanna reach out to

him and I, it was just, I never did.

No, I never did.

But, oh, you don't have to follow up on that now.

I can see a Father's Day Facebook Messenger post going out.

Oh, yeah.

Can we follow up on that?

Yeah.

I think, yeah.

Wouldn't that be fun?

That, that was because I, I, I think one of the biggest joys, I don't, I don't

know how old he would be by now, but it's gotta be one of the biggest joys in

life in the, in sort of these gifts that you get later, these dividends mm-hmm.

Of showing up for young people.

Oh, yeah.

Right.

And then to get whatever, many years later.

Oh, yeah.

A random Facebook message that said, you were a father figure to

me when I needed it, and thank you.

I mean, that could be a transformative.

I was, I was a young kid and this guy was, I mean, he was 10 foot tall

and bulletproof, and I thought he was the meanest s o b when I messed up.

And, but yet he was like, I was never in the military, but I, I feel

he was like my drill instructor.

Like, he was so hard on me, but he, I felt he knew, he saw something in me and

pushed me to be a better player, a better person or a player for him, to the point

where like, I loved every minute of it.

I lo I, and I remember him just constantly like Paul, you

there's a better way to do this.

Or come on stay in your lane do this, do this, do this.

So, and, and there's a lot of coaches that that I would love to reach out to.

Just say you are, you, you at the time.

I know I probably hated you at the time, but now I, I, I thank you for

everything that you did and what kind of, of a man you were in my life.

And I appreciate now that I'm an older older individual.

Okay.

So the danger of coming on my podcast, Uhhuh.

And I, and I know you haven't had the advantages of li listening

to the other episodes where this exact scenario happens.

Mm-hmm.

But I'm going to see if you'd be willing to reach out to them.

And then we're gonna do a small follow up of the impact of that communication.

Because the way I hear this is if they even heard an ounce of the

passion with, with which you speak.

Mm-hmm.

There's so much pain in the world, there's so much suffering.

Oh yeah.

And you have this little nugget in your head of this thought that could be

shared in this day and age in an instant.

Right.

Assuming they're on social media.

Right.

Right, right.

And maybe not everybody is, but this idea, and I kind of love this idea that, that

all of us have these things that if we just set out loud, like the worst that

can happen is they don't check Facebook Messenger until like a year from now.

Right.

Or whatever.

But like to me, How, like in a world where things are expensive and time is tight,

there are just very few purely beautiful things that could be transformative

for people that we care about.

Mm-hmm.

And it kind of goes back to that mosaic idea of like that mosaic you can,

you just described a mosaic, right?

Which is, while he was hard on me about this, but then he encouraged me on here.

But at the end of the day, you saw the mosaic differently later in life and, and

the ability to go back and find people and connect that way with no strings

attached was you'd just be saying it because you actually feel it, which is

the most genuine thing somebody could get.

It's almost like that should be amplified in the world.

Yes.

Not in a self-serving way.

This is literally a message, a private message between two people.

So anyway, of course I'll never tell you what to do, but I would

love, love, love, love, love, love.

Love, love to do a follow up podcast just to look at what that looks like.

Maybe around Father's Day.

There's, okay, well I will tell you now, there's, there's about two or

three coaches that I'm, I'm, I'm, I will try to reach out to one of them.

His name's Bobby Brown, so it's gonna be kind of hard.

It's kind of a common name, but there's some, some other ones that

have, they're not very common names, so I can, I can, I'll try to reach

out to them and if we call him Mark Zuckerberg, I bet he can find anybody.

Bobby Brown, you mean Bobby Brown's around the world?

I dunno.

Houston, Texas, a coach in the eighties, nineties, yeah.

Camp high School.

Camp, yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Come on now.

I will.

An alumni page or, yeah, come on.

We're not being very creative, but yes.

Okay.

Yeah, I, that would be awesome.

But no pressure.

No, I, I, I, I, I'll, I'll do some homework and I would

definitely reach out to them as on Father's Day as a matter of fact.

That'd be perfect actually.

I will there's about two, three that I, I, I would love to just say, I

just wanted to tell you that I'm 47, about to be 48 years old, and your

voice is, is I can remember your voice like it was yesterday, telling me to,

to do something there's a better way to do that, or pushing me to, to be

better than, than I thought I could be.

So yeah, I would definitely, like I said, there's about two three of 'em that I

would definitely do that as part, and then there's just some rules of the universe

that that message could end up in their inbox at the exact right time Yeah.

For, for them that, so I appreciate you looking into that.

Okay.

Well, we'll talk again.

Okay.

Thank you so much.