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He Marries a Chemist...
Episode 2 • 1st April 2024 • Respecting the Beer • McFleshman's Brewing Co
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Gary gets more of Bobby and Allison's intricate journey into the craft beer world, highlighting the blend of art and science in brewing.

Discussions range from Bobby's time at brewing school while finishing a PhD, navigating marriage while in different states and the impact of academic and entrepreneurial backgrounds on ones roadmap, illustrating the unpredictable yet fulfilling path of pursuing one's passion.

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--

CREDITS

Hosts:

Bobby Fleshman

Allison McCoy-Fleshman

Gary Ardnt

Music by Sarah Lynn Huss

Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow

Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co

Mentioned in this episode:

Join us for Lager Fest on October 5

Get your ticket today for a commemorative glass and all-you-can lager from over 20 breweries! https://mcfleshmans.ticketspice.com/lagerfest-2024 Music by Dvorak Polka Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

Transcripts

Gary Arndt:

Welcome to the respecting the beer podcast.

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My name is Gary Arndt and with me as

usual are Bobby Fleshman and Alison

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McCoy Fleshman, the proprietors

of the McFleshman Brewing Company.

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:

In our last episode, we talked about

kind of the origin stories about how

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as a four year old, you started, took

your first taste of beer quite illegally

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but in this episode, we kind of left

off where you, you, you went to beer

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school and I want to ask you a little

bit more about that because I think

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You've mentioned several times that

there's a lot of science and brewing

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and that that's obviously the true,

but there's also an art to it as well.

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And I think in a lot of disciplines

that are similar to this, people

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learn through an apprenticeship.

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You go, you learn under someone,

and then over a period of time they

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teach you the ropes, and then you

kind of figure it out yourself.

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So what, what, what does

one do at beer school?

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You said you had to have some sort

of STEM degree to even be admitted.

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What do they do that you're not

going to get, or they put a different

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emphasis on from just beer school?

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Working at a brewery.

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Bobby Fleshman: Right.

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As you're, as you're describing

it that way, I'm thinking about

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the flow chart to getting craft

beer to opening a brewery and it's

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like spaghetti dropped on a table.

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It's, it doesn't make, there

isn't a way to become a brewer.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I'm about to

say that's one of the funnest questions.

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When we meet other brewer brewery

owners, we're like, what was

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your, what was your last job?

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Because it was never, I, I started

brewing and I've always been brewing.

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It was always something else.

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Bobby Fleshman: If you go back

to:

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have been a very clear path.

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You would go work for one of these four

breweries really large breweries You could

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be trained potentially on the job You

might come in with a degree But you would

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be doing a very small thing and a very big

machine and you'd be doing it You would be

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doing it very well, but with craft beer.

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Yeah

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I was

just gonna say to back to Gary's

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question about what what things did

you gain from the brewing program?

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I think that they were, they were

these different sections that you

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would cover, like, pretty much every

aspect of brewing a beer from packaging

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and the mechanics and the engineering

associated with the packaging systems

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to like what sort of things to think

about in terms of like grain ingredient

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or grain chemical composition that you'd

have to take into account to make a

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better beer to understand the process.

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So speak on that.

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Bobby Fleshman: So speaking to my

flow chart, as Allison points out,

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that's my way into craft beer.

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Yeah, I, I, I did.

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So you could have come from a big

brewery and then made your way to craft.

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But for me, and as so many crappers, we

went to brewing school having clean kegs

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prior to that and ran canning lines and

help make beer and so forth, but not

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really understanding enough to take it

to the next level to open their own spot.

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You could continue down that path though.

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You could, I could have stayed

with coop brewing company and

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open my own brewery eventually.

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But I wanted to get out there.

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I wanted to network with the larger

beer world and it meant I had to move

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away from home for the second time.

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the first time being with, with

NASA, working with NASA, this was

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another time I had to move away from

Allison and I just wanted to network,

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you know, that was for me, me.

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As big of a draw to this

program is anything else.

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These people came from everywhere.

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They came from Miller, Sierra,

Nevada, surly, new Belgium.

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You just couldn't, I was going to ask,

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Gary Arndt: this seems like a very,

this is a professional program, right?

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So this is all, this isn't, you know, Oh,

how to make a batch of beer on your stove.

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This is the business of beer.

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Bobby Fleshman: It actually

isn't the business of beer.

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I was going to say, yeah,

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Gary Arndt: I should say when

you're talking about bottling

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or canning or things like that.

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You're talking about someone

that's making beer as a business.

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Bobby Fleshman: Exactly.

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Yeah.

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So this is the professional

side of brewing.

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but I will say that day one, my

instructor, Michael Lewis said that he,

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he said, first of all, welcome to the

brethren of the brotherhood of brewing.

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And it was kind of a teary eyed moment.

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This guy had done it for

40 I don't know, forever.

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He said, well, I'm not teaching you guys

to open how to open a brewery or run one.

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You're not going to learn

any of that here today.

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He says, I'm teaching you how to make

beer and, and that'll never leave me.

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And so I'm still, I'm still

educating myself on what he

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said I won't be educated on.

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I'm, I'm again, meandering, but I'm trying

to describe how that experience led to

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where I am today to opening this brewery.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And yeah, we

were extremely naive when you were both

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starting and finishing a beer school and

actually how to open and run a brewery.

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

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So, but let's just take it

for what it was at face value.

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It was a, it was my education

in professional brewing.

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And like I said, I said

previously, I was learning,

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biology and chemistry on a level.

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That I had never learned as

an undergraduate and I didn't

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do it in graduate school.

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And I was expected to know it

on a level that was somewhere

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between undergraduate and graduate.

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And I had to do it on a

timescale of six months.

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So I, I was really diving in deep

to learn about metabolic processes,

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raw ingredients, fermentation.

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There's so many things I had to learn.

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There were 10 times more involved

than anything I would have been

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exposed to in the world of homebrewing

or honestly, apprenticeships.

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Most apprenticeships never could

have touched on some of the

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things I would have learned.

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My, educators came from a different

time when everybody was a big brewer.

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So big brewers are really good brewers.

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And as much as we want to say bad

things about your millers and your

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quarters about how they're not awesome

to drink, they're not interesting.

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I should say they are

really good at brewing.

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They make the same thing every time.

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And that's the definition of quality.

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And so these guys came from that

school, not a school of thought.

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And so they were teaching us how

to make the same thing every time.

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And guys

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: and gals

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Bobby Fleshman: And gals, actually, we

probably were outnumbered in that class.

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I think in the end, those that succeeded

might've been more women than men.

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He said, yeah, it was a, it was a big,

it was a big, change in the brewing

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industry 11 years ago, 12 years ago.

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Gary Arndt: So I'm guessing most of the

people in this program, because you're

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getting a certification and nowadays the

whole point of education is basically,

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you know, some sort of certification

you get to please someone else that most

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of these people are going to work for.

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Some other brewery.

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And this is what they show

to show their credentials.

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You didn't do that, right?

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So you're getting a credential

that isn't necessarily going to be

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used to get you a job somewhere.

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, I think I was using

it as an, as education and as networking.

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And if the credential came into play all

the better, and that goes for my PhD.

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I don't ever put that post nominal

to my signature, but if it ever

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becomes relevant, then it's there.

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And there is a post nominal for my

brewing degree as well that I could apply.

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What is it?

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Gary Arndt: Just it's,

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Bobby Fleshman: it's a diploma brewer.

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It's too many letters.

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It's like D I P a brewer.

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It's too many.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman:

It doesn't even was IBD.

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Bobby Fleshman: No, no.

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Cause there's several degrees.

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Gary Arndt: I would put that on

your business card just cause

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: yeah,

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Bobby Fleshman: Sorry, Gary, I lost

your, I lost my train of thought

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trying to think of my post nominal

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Gary Arndt: you get

this credential, right?

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So you go to the program.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman:

Then what do you do?

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Well, so actually, so I call you up.

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So you're in beer school and I call

you up and I'm like, Hey, guess what?

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He's picking

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Bobby Fleshman: our next spot.

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Yeah.

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So the

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: goal was I'm going

to go, he'll follow me wherever I go.

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It's up to me to find the job somewhere.

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Cause I was going to do the

professor gig and Lawrence called.

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So I interviewed at Appleton.

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Can we

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Bobby Fleshman: pause for a minute?

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She just described being a

tenured professor at university.

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As the professor gigs professor.

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As if it's a weekend.

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It's

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: a verb.

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anyway, and so so we, I get

the job, which is fantastic.

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And then I call him up and

I was like, Hey, guess what?

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We're moving to Wisconsin.

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And the the physics department at

Lawrence was needing a physicist.

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And they said, Oh, well,

our new chemist is.

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Married to a physicist.

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Maybe he can take this job.

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So they interviewed you and they offered

you the job for a one year visiting

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assistant professor job, but then also

Hinterland Brewing Company up in Green Bay

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also wanted to interview because there was

a person who had the IBD diploma coming

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to town and so the brewery industry knows

that that, I mean, that is the credential.

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If you can have someone that has

IBD on your team, it's amazing.

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At the time, I think the only

other IBD in the state was.

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Well, at least in the craft

brewing industry was Dan

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Carey out of New Pairs, Dan

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Bobby Fleshman: Carey.

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And then soon after Brad, still mink.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Cool.

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Yeah.

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it was a, a rare credential to

have 'cause it's so hard to get.

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And so we went up to Hinterland and

you interviewed there, and they offered

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you the job as a brewer there the same

day that Lawrence offered you the job.

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of the physics professorship

for a year and so it was a fun,

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Bobby Fleshman: it was a

fork and it was a fun day.

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What

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: do we do?

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So we went to Stone Arch to enjoy some

beer there and you decided, I think.

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, I wanted to immerse

myself in the academic community here.

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I, cause I knew I, I didn't want

to, I don't want to talk down to

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the options, but I knew that the

brewing jobs would always be there,

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but I don't think I was always going

to have an opportunity to teach.

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And it made, it made an, it made a

lot of sense actually from a money

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standpoint to cover our moving expenses.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah, that's true.

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And just to I mean, we had just

come out of grad school, so we had

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not really many dimes to our name.

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But also I was terrified of Green

Bay because it was far away.

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I didn't know how far it was, 30 minute

drive, but we had no idea what winter was.

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And in Oklahoma, I would have been on the,

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Bobby Fleshman: I would have

been on the graveyard shift.

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I was

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: terrified of

you driving back and forth in winter.

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And so I was, I was very hopeful that

you didn't take the job for that reason.

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Gary Arndt: So your position at

Lawrence, was it a, like a postdoc type

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Bobby Fleshman: thing?

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Essentially.

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Yeah.

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I was, I was taking over a visit,

a rotating visitor position.

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And your position was more

of a tenure track one?

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yes.

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Bobby Fleshman: That's a whole story.

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She didn't even know she was

interviewing for a tenured position.

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Yeah.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: It was a,

it was a visiting position that

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they switched over to a tenure line.

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And,

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Gary Arndt: and just so everybody

knows, like, that's the holy grail

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for like most academics, right?

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Hence the, you go through all this

garbage for years and the hope is

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you get a tenure track position.

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You get set up, you get

a nice job for life.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yup.

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Yeah.

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I'm hired for life.

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Gary Arndt: What are the options?

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh, you're

hired for life or you're fired.

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

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So as you're until you're 10 years,

what a colleague of mine described

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: tenure to be.

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But the idea is, is you have this

academic freedom and you can explore

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your research in ways and the even

more holy grail is working at Lawrence.

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Cause it's a very small college.

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So I don't have to do like,

and it's undergraduates only.

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So it's not the graduate students and

I don't have to go after big grants.

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I can really focus on teaching and

working with students, which is fantastic.

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And the other fun thing about Lawrence was

even on my interview, They're not allowed

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to ask any questions about like, do you

have a spouse and what do they do there?

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anything about Appleton that we can

tell you about for any reason at all?

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And I was like, well, is, can

y'all, is it okay if we go

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around to some of the breweries?

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And they're like, Oh, okay.

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And so one of my.

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My colleagues took me up to Green Bay

and we went brewery hopping, and he was

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like, yeah, I don't know why she wants to.

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I was like, it's fine.

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I just really like beer.

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What they didn't know is of course

is I was really wanting to look

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at the comp, not competition,

I mean all of these breweries.

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The landscape.

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Yeah.

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Look at the landscape and is

there a spot in like is Appleton

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in need of another brewery?

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Especially one that with the vision

of what we were kind of building.

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Gary Arndt: So your decision to come here

was obviously based on the job offer.

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Yep.

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Did you have any idea at the

time, the history of beer?

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In this area.

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Bobby Fleshman: Oh yeah.

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That, that's the part she

asked me over the phone.

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She did have options at the

time and of where we would land.

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And it was between Boston and

Australia, which would have been cool.

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I, if I remember, right.

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Oh no,

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: that didn't.

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Well,

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Bobby Fleshman: the point though

being, she did ask, would it be

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a good spot to open a brewery?

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In Wisconsin beer.

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And I laughed on the

other end of that line.

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And I was going to school with some people

that were from Michigan and Minnesota.

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And they also laughed at that.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: In all

fairness, I wasn't at, you know,

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Bobby Fleshman: it will, it,

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman:

I can just make it funny.

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Bobby Fleshman: But, but what did work out

is we moved at a time when there was more.

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One brewery in Appleton stone arch,

the, the, our neighbors, the Appleton

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beer factory had not yet open open.

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And there was a brewery in grand

shoot Fox river brewing company, but

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that really is based out of Oshkosh.

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So we moved into a really ripe moment

in the, in the history of beer for

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this, for this particular city.

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So the reason I ask

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Gary Arndt: is because at least in like

growing up in the seventies, Probably

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earlier, when it was the era of big beer.

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Wisconsin really was the world's, the

nation's largest beer manufacturer,

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most of that coming out of Milwaukee,

Miller, Pabst, Schlitz, Hams, you know,

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every German name that a lot of Germans

settled in this area, they created

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breweries and this was sort of the

beer center of the world for a while.

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We tell like the craft brewing,

you know, wave started.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah.

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We knew about, we knew about New Glarus.

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And a friend of ours in graduate

school was from Milwaukee.

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And so he would come back and forth

over the holidays and he would bring

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us back a big box of spotted cow.

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And we were like, Oh my gosh, spotted cow.

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This is amazing.

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And so we knew that there was

a really good beer scene here.

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I don't think, at least I didn't

appreciate the rich history that was here.

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Bobby Fleshman: I did.

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I, I knew about the logger scene.

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I was definitely keyed in on that.

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It's why that we launched with loggers.

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We knew we were going to

make a lot of loggers.

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I think four of our top five

sellers are loggers today.

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There's a German heritage here

that we wanted to respect.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And that was

actually something that we figured

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out when you were writing the business

plan for what the brewery would be like

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really what our kind of goal beer styles

would be when you did some digging to

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find the German and Irish heritage.

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Gary Arndt: So, all right,

so let's go to that point.

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You're both teaching at a university.

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When does the point come where you pull

the trigger or you make the decision

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like We're gonna open a brewery.

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Oh god.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Well, that

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Bobby Fleshman: decision was made Like

I said when I was cleaning those kegs 20

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years prior, but I mean that's like yeah.

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Yeah Aspirational

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Gary Arndt: that's true, right?

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It's not like Honey, we're going

to a bank and you know, we're,

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something's on the line and you

got to, you know, it becomes real.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I think that

is when we talked to our parents

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about getting investing going.

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That's when I think it really

started to become the goal.

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Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

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Or it

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman:

became real, I should say.

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Yeah,

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Bobby Fleshman: because, right, if, to

be honest, if we don't have investment,

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then I'm still at another brewery.

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I'm just as happy.

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It's just a different path.

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we had to have investors.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: So we talked

to my mother and then Bobby's parents.

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And so both families bought in Bobby's

parents were much more active than

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my mother, but it was that point

that it became an actual, like,

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Bobby Fleshman: now the groundwork was,

was, was laid, not just, we're talking

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about the networking and the experience

that I got in brewing school, but the

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net, the groundwork was laid here in town.

349

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I worked on and off for two years

at Stone Arch Brewing Company,

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overlapping honestly with what I

was doing at Lawrence University.

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So I, I was, I was getting to

know this local brewing scene.

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And something very specific about, about

beer here and the business of a beer here.

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I was helping these guys across the

alley at the beer factory, with any

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number of technical and artistic, if

you like to say it that way, decisions.

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And yeah, so it wasn't as though

we, we were just some ghost

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and then we just, fabricated.

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We were the first people we met in town

outside of Lawrence University were the

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owners of the Appleton beer factory.

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Allison McCoy-Fleshman: That was fun.

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We were religious about every

Sunday going to ABF for about 2 p.

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m.

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and just every Sunday

we were sit there 2 p.

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:

m.

364

:

And which is the perfect time.

365

:

If you want to go to a brewery, go when,

you know, not many people are there and

366

:

you can really start to talk to people.

367

:

And we started to talk to the

bar manager, his name is Larry.

368

:

He has since moved on, but,

actually he's still an owner.

369

:

But then he was like telling Jeff

Fogle, Hey, you got to meet this guy.

370

:

And so Jeff made a point to come by

on one Sunday when we would come by.

371

:

And the friendship was born.

372

:

Bobby Fleshman: And just to summarize

our relationship with these guys,

373

:

we're, we're not business partners,

but we are spiritual partners.

374

:

And we, we, we do share

a lot of equipment.

375

:

because it only makes sense, but

we just are spiritually aligned

376

:

and, and that's why we chose to,

to move in next door to them.

377

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: When we'd already

seen this model too, and Fort Collins,

378

:

you, you know, there's breweries right

next door on entire blocks that are just

379

:

five or six breweries right in a row.

380

:

And so they're really not

competitors with each other.

381

:

They really do help each, you know,

the business helps each other.

382

:

I'm sure

383

:

Gary Arndt: we'll talk about this

in a future episode, but you are

384

:

literally, you're literally 10 paces.

385

:

Yeah.

386

:

And that we'll get into that later.

387

:

And we actually

388

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman:

bought this building because

389

:

we are 10 paces from them.

390

:

Gary Arndt: One of the things I find

interesting about your story is that

391

:

of all the academics I know, let's just

say they're rather risk adverse people.

392

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: That's funny.

393

:

Gary Arndt: You get a tenure track job.

394

:

It's safe.

395

:

And.

396

:

Obviously there are a lot of them

aren't politically conservative,

397

:

but they're kind of personally,

you know, rather conservative.

398

:

They're not risk takers.

399

:

So this seems like a very, you know,

you can, you can have your story about,

400

:

you know, you studied and learn physics

and everything, but then that jump from,

401

:

you know, student to entrepreneur seems

like a real big one for an academic.

402

:

That it's something that a lot of,

you know, maybe some Silicon Valley

403

:

people do it, but you don't see it

a whole lot in other disciplines.

404

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Well, Bobby had

actually jumped off that cliff before.

405

:

Bobby Fleshman: I was going to say that

this is where my parents, even if they

406

:

didn't introduce, introduce me to beer,

they introduced me to entrepreneurship.

407

:

They, they had a real estate company.

408

:

And then they, my, my father

works in the oil and gas industry.

409

:

And Oklahoma, which is the second

biggest industry in Oklahoma.

410

:

In fact, Allison's father did too.

411

:

Those are businesses they

created my parents and then

412

:

they started to build homes.

413

:

And my dad was a general contractor.

414

:

My first job was building homes.

415

:

I think I learned how to open

businesses and jump off the cliff

416

:

without even thinking about it.

417

:

I

418

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: was about to say,

let's say a little bit more about that.

419

:

Like your, your dad was doing

like the land brokerage, your

420

:

mom was a real estate agent.

421

:

she's actually the president of the real

estate company of like the state, but

422

:

then you didn't just build how, like you

didn't just like work as a carpenter.

423

:

You truly built the houses

like from start to finish.

424

:

Bobby Fleshman: I didn't go to college

essentially until I was 25 years old.

425

:

Yeah, I was building

homes until that point.

426

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And so his company

was rather successful and you were about

427

:

to really invest and make it even bigger

because you were building homes right

428

:

around, I mean, and Elk City was growing

where you were, out in Western Oklahoma,

429

:

but then someone gave you a book.

430

:

And so instead of being an entrepreneur

and being inspired by your dad who

431

:

could help you, you know, build this

company, you decided to do something

432

:

else and jump off a different cliff.

433

:

Bobby Fleshman: but to

Gary's point and, and.

434

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh, come on.

435

:

I let it talk to the book about the book.

436

:

Bobby Fleshman: So, okay.

437

:

We're going to jump off to that.

438

:

Thank you.

439

:

So I learned entrepreneurship

from my parents, but here we go.

440

:

The, the book that was handed

to me was on quantum physics.

441

:

And if anyone's listening, wants

to know in summary what that means.

442

:

Is that the world is very much

more strange than, than what

443

:

you deal with on the daily.

444

:

The smaller you look you,

you find odd behaviors,

445

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: whatever,

quantum mechanics, light is a particle

446

:

Bobby Fleshman: part of what I

read this book and it's called

447

:

in search of Schrodinger's

448

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: cap.

449

:

If you're interested by John Gibbon,

450

:

Bobby Fleshman: John Gribbon, sorry.

451

:

So I shut the book and I just said,

I don't understand the world that

452

:

I live in and coincident to this.

453

:

This is my.

454

:

this person must know me really

well to hand me that book.

455

:

They knew it would, they knew

I would not be able to just

456

:

close the book and move on.

457

:

I don't know is if that's

a good thing or a curse.

458

:

My sister had actually been

going to college at the time.

459

:

She was also a physicist.

460

:

She actually ended up being a,

business major at the end of it all.

461

:

But that got my, I got the contacts that

I needed through her department and I

462

:

showed up at the age of 24 years old.

463

:

And he said, come this summer, I'll,

we'll throw you in this program.

464

:

I said, I want to be a physicist.

465

:

And at this time I'm thinking, I'm

going to just learn physics and

466

:

then, and then see where this goes.

467

:

And this is when I thought that there

is just like a book that you just learn

468

:

physics from, even at 24 years old,

four years old, I was still that naive.

469

:

So anyway, he says, all right,

do all of these math problems

470

:

and come back and And we'll talk.

471

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: It was an

entire book of college algebra.

472

:

So you're starting at the very beginning.

473

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, literally

every single problem in the book.

474

:

Gary Arndt: I find this

interesting because most academics

475

:

go from kindergarten to PhD

and they never leave school.

476

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yep.

477

:

That was my route.

478

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, there

I have a very nonlinear path.

479

:

Yes.

480

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: But in

that nonlinearity you you You're

481

:

comfortable with jumping off the cliff

and it almost became a joke when it

482

:

Bobby Fleshman: explains the

483

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: what

careers Bobby going to have next.

484

:

but it, I mean, we love you though,

but the skills that you developed

485

:

made opening a brewery, building it

ourselves, the entrepreneur idea,

486

:

like it was already there and he'd

actually practiced it a couple of times.

487

:

Whereas most academics

like myself don't do that.

488

:

We stick to that narrow path.

489

:

Bobby Fleshman: Being a PhD is.

490

:

Is that you have done it?

491

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Well, I

know, but it, it, in terms of the,

492

:

what seems like an abrupt change, or

actually it's jumping off that cliff

493

:

without a safety net because it,

you know, it's, a tenure track job.

494

:

I mean, unless the university

closes is pretty nice gig.

495

:

Cause you know, you're

going to have a job.

496

:

It's ultimate job security.

497

:

Whereas entrepreneurship is like, not

498

:

Bobby Fleshman: without

sounding self indulgent.

499

:

It's something that you don't know

about yourself until you press yourself.

500

:

And you, you either have that

character trait that allows you to

501

:

climb out on the wing or you don't.

502

:

And I don't think that it's, I don't

think that it is related to your history.

503

:

It's just something about whoever you are.

504

:

If you happen to be an academic or

not, it just It's just something

505

:

that's in me and I, maybe I inherited

it or observed it from my parents,

506

:

but jumping out of the plane was

always something I was willing to do.

507

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And

you, your, your family had a

508

:

lot of their own businesses.

509

:

So your grandfather ran a

dental lab, he made dentures and

510

:

actually, Oh, this is a fun story.

511

:

Can I go a little sidetrack?

512

:

Let's go

513

:

Bobby Fleshman: way back.

514

:

So

515

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman:

Bobby has so many skills.

516

:

He learned to weld in high school,

so he welded a lot of the stuff here.

517

:

He, Carpenter.

518

:

So most of the wood stuff

that you see, he helped build

519

:

with with your brother in law.

520

:

And so there's all these

different skills that he has.

521

:

He can be really crazy.

522

:

He's also made his own gold tooth.

523

:

So this is a party trick, right?

524

:

So he has a gold tooth.

525

:

Show it around.

526

:

I know it's a podcast, but still, okay.

527

:

Gold tooth.

528

:

But when you was, when you were what?

529

:

Bobby Fleshman: 12 years old.

530

:

So his

531

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: first,

your first job really was working

532

:

at your grandfather's dental lab.

533

:

He made dentures.

534

:

And so you would sweep up the gold dust.

535

:

A quarter an hour.

536

:

Bobby Fleshman: I'm some

kid walking around sweeping.

537

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Anyway.

538

:

And so he learned how to

539

:

Bobby Fleshman: Because

there's gold in that dirt.

540

:

Melted it down.

541

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: But

you, you were skilled enough.

542

:

Then he taught you how to make teeth.

543

:

And so you got to make

your own gold tooth.

544

:

That's still in, which is just hysterical.

545

:

I

546

:

Bobby Fleshman: think it's

insane, but it's still in.

547

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Your

family, many members of your family

548

:

have run successful businesses.

549

:

So whereas my family was very

much, the academic track and

550

:

my father was an engineer.

551

:

He was very like, okay, we're going

to focus and support you that way.

552

:

Your parents taught you, you know,

yes, they valued education, but also

553

:

you were part of those businesses.

554

:

Bobby Fleshman: Hearing it said

that way makes me understand or

555

:

say that Gary could have asked.

556

:

What made me do academia?

557

:

Because that I'm the first

generation to get a degree.

558

:

So that, that was more my

jumping out of a plane.

559

:

Gary Arndt: There are a lot

of parallels in our lives.

560

:

Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.

561

:

Gary Arndt: Oh yeah.

562

:

Bobby Fleshman: Okay.

563

:

Gary Arndt: Cause I've like

reinvented myself umpteen times.

564

:

I started a business.

565

:

Everyone's like, why are

you going to do that?

566

:

And that was successful.

567

:

And then I went back to

school, studied science.

568

:

But I realized I don't want to get a PhD

after having seen so many people do it.

569

:

I was thinking of going into

planetary science, right?

570

:

I was looking at like Brown,

Arizona state and Caltech.

571

:

And, someone was at the

university of Minnesota.

572

:

They explained to me like, well,

here's how it's going to happen.

573

:

You, you know, work on some program at

NASA, and then you spend 10 years on it.

574

:

And then the rocket blows

up on the pad or it crashes.

575

:

And you've wasted, you

know, a decade of your life.

576

:

And I was just like, yeah, I'm

going to go travel around the world.

577

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh

my gosh, this is so similar.

578

:

But

579

:

Gary Arndt: What you said about

this being a personality trait.

580

:

I absolutely believe that.

581

:

And I've told that to

a lot of people there.

582

:

I get people that ask me all the time.

583

:

It's like, Oh, I want to

be a podcast and do this.

584

:

And like, either you have it or you

don't, and it's not a bad thing.

585

:

There are some people out there

that, you know, I've, I've

586

:

never had a real job in my life.

587

:

I've always done my own thing

and there have been very

588

:

highs and lows and in between.

589

:

But I, I wouldn't do it any other way.

590

:

Did the fact that you were married

to someone On a tenure track

591

:

offer a little bit of stability.

592

:

Like that's sort of like

the, oh, that's the only

593

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: way we can do this

594

:

.

Bobby Fleshman: Oh hell yeah.

595

:

That there's, there's no way

this happens without a stable

596

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah.

597

:

I breadwinner.

598

:

I am the he, he's the bread maker.

599

:

I'm the breadwinner

600

:

And I we're hoping

601

:

Bobby Fleshman: this is our retirement.

602

:

Yes.

603

:

Yeah.

604

:

Yeah.

605

:

And this is

606

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman:

when it's been, I will say.

607

:

Building a brewery can put a lot of

strain on a marriage and you're good

608

:

at putting strain on a marriage.

609

:

but I remember that we were

going to wait until after I got

610

:

tenure to start the brewery.

611

:

That was my hope because worst

case scenario, now granted

612

:

I'm really good, so it's fine.

613

:

and I was going to get tenure, but

I, you know, you never know and

614

:

you know, you do the best you can.

615

:

But I really wanted to wait.

616

:

But then the building opportunity.

617

:

Came to buy it and It's like we're

gonna jump off the cliff and he just

618

:

went ahead and he was like, nope,

we're gonna do it We're not gonna wait.

619

:

So what year did this

620

:

Gary Arndt: happen?

621

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: This was in

:

622

:

2019 And I would have known about it

a little earlier But I really wanted

623

:

to make sure that I was gonna get it.

624

:

So I And it

625

:

Bobby Fleshman: was at least a

couple of years of finishing that

626

:

process and me breaking ground here

and going through the loan process.

627

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And so we

started, we jumped off a little

628

:

faster than I wanted, but it,

629

:

Bobby Fleshman: but I, but it's

the timescale that I work on.

630

:

You can't

631

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: stop Bobby.

632

:

That's one thing I've learned is

like, are you, What something my

633

:

father used to say was like, lead,

follow or get out of the way.

634

:

And you definitely get

out of the way with Bobby.

635

:

He is gonna do stuff and you

just don't stand in his way.

636

:

And if you can, you know, support

him so you can go farther.

637

:

I believe in you, sweetie.

638

:

Bobby Fleshman: Well, hopefully

it doesn't sound like I'm

639

:

walking on people to get there.

640

:

Oh,

641

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: no, no, no,

not, I don't, oh, that sounds bad, no.

642

:

You're crushing

643

:

Bobby Fleshman: all of your enemies.

644

:

No,

645

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: sorry, he's

just, Which is brewing supremacy.

646

:

I mean, he's getting up at 4 a.

647

:

m.

648

:

when he still has to finish

his dissertation to go clean

649

:

kegs for, like, nothing.

650

:

Bobby Fleshman: So, you, But it was clear

that it was for something in the long run.

651

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman:

Extreme work ethic.

652

:

Gary Arndt: All right.

653

:

Well, let's pause the conversation

here and in the next episode, I

654

:

want to really start with the the

origins of McFleshman's and, and how

655

:

that started and how you went from

nothing to a brewery year of your own.

656

:

Perfect.

657

:

Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Go team.

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