Gary gets more of Bobby and Allison's intricate journey into the craft beer world, highlighting the blend of art and science in brewing.
Discussions range from Bobby's time at brewing school while finishing a PhD, navigating marriage while in different states and the impact of academic and entrepreneurial backgrounds on ones roadmap, illustrating the unpredictable yet fulfilling path of pursuing one's passion.
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--
CREDITS
Hosts:
Music by Sarah Lynn Huss
Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow
Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co
Welcome to the respecting the beer podcast.
2
:My name is Gary Arndt and with me as
usual are Bobby Fleshman and Alison
3
:McCoy Fleshman, the proprietors
of the McFleshman Brewing Company.
4
:In our last episode, we talked about
kind of the origin stories about how
5
:as a four year old, you started, took
your first taste of beer quite illegally
6
:but in this episode, we kind of left
off where you, you, you went to beer
7
:school and I want to ask you a little
bit more about that because I think
8
:You've mentioned several times that
there's a lot of science and brewing
9
:and that that's obviously the true,
but there's also an art to it as well.
10
:And I think in a lot of disciplines
that are similar to this, people
11
:learn through an apprenticeship.
12
:You go, you learn under someone,
and then over a period of time they
13
:teach you the ropes, and then you
kind of figure it out yourself.
14
:So what, what, what does
one do at beer school?
15
:You said you had to have some sort
of STEM degree to even be admitted.
16
:What do they do that you're not
going to get, or they put a different
17
:emphasis on from just beer school?
18
:Working at a brewery.
19
:Bobby Fleshman: Right.
20
:As you're, as you're describing
it that way, I'm thinking about
21
:the flow chart to getting craft
beer to opening a brewery and it's
22
:like spaghetti dropped on a table.
23
:It's, it doesn't make, there
isn't a way to become a brewer.
24
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I'm about to
say that's one of the funnest questions.
25
:When we meet other brewer brewery
owners, we're like, what was
26
:your, what was your last job?
27
:Because it was never, I, I started
brewing and I've always been brewing.
28
:It was always something else.
29
:Bobby Fleshman: If you go back
to:
30
:have been a very clear path.
31
:You would go work for one of these four
breweries really large breweries You could
32
:be trained potentially on the job You
might come in with a degree But you would
33
:be doing a very small thing and a very big
machine and you'd be doing it You would be
34
:doing it very well, but with craft beer.
35
:Yeah
36
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I was
just gonna say to back to Gary's
37
:question about what what things did
you gain from the brewing program?
38
:I think that they were, they were
these different sections that you
39
:would cover, like, pretty much every
aspect of brewing a beer from packaging
40
:and the mechanics and the engineering
associated with the packaging systems
41
:to like what sort of things to think
about in terms of like grain ingredient
42
:or grain chemical composition that you'd
have to take into account to make a
43
:better beer to understand the process.
44
:So speak on that.
45
:Bobby Fleshman: So speaking to my
flow chart, as Allison points out,
46
:that's my way into craft beer.
47
:Yeah, I, I, I did.
48
:So you could have come from a big
brewery and then made your way to craft.
49
:But for me, and as so many crappers, we
went to brewing school having clean kegs
50
:prior to that and ran canning lines and
help make beer and so forth, but not
51
:really understanding enough to take it
to the next level to open their own spot.
52
:You could continue down that path though.
53
:You could, I could have stayed
with coop brewing company and
54
:open my own brewery eventually.
55
:But I wanted to get out there.
56
:I wanted to network with the larger
beer world and it meant I had to move
57
:away from home for the second time.
58
:the first time being with, with
NASA, working with NASA, this was
59
:another time I had to move away from
Allison and I just wanted to network,
60
:you know, that was for me, me.
61
:As big of a draw to this
program is anything else.
62
:These people came from everywhere.
63
:They came from Miller, Sierra,
Nevada, surly, new Belgium.
64
:You just couldn't, I was going to ask,
65
:Gary Arndt: this seems like a very,
this is a professional program, right?
66
:So this is all, this isn't, you know, Oh,
how to make a batch of beer on your stove.
67
:This is the business of beer.
68
:Bobby Fleshman: It actually
isn't the business of beer.
69
:I was going to say, yeah,
70
:Gary Arndt: I should say when
you're talking about bottling
71
:or canning or things like that.
72
:You're talking about someone
that's making beer as a business.
73
:Bobby Fleshman: Exactly.
74
:Yeah.
75
:So this is the professional
side of brewing.
76
:but I will say that day one, my
instructor, Michael Lewis said that he,
77
:he said, first of all, welcome to the
brethren of the brotherhood of brewing.
78
:And it was kind of a teary eyed moment.
79
:This guy had done it for
40 I don't know, forever.
80
:He said, well, I'm not teaching you guys
to open how to open a brewery or run one.
81
:You're not going to learn
any of that here today.
82
:He says, I'm teaching you how to make
beer and, and that'll never leave me.
83
:And so I'm still, I'm still
educating myself on what he
84
:said I won't be educated on.
85
:I'm, I'm again, meandering, but I'm trying
to describe how that experience led to
86
:where I am today to opening this brewery.
87
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And yeah, we
were extremely naive when you were both
88
:starting and finishing a beer school and
actually how to open and run a brewery.
89
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
90
:So, but let's just take it
for what it was at face value.
91
:It was a, it was my education
in professional brewing.
92
:And like I said, I said
previously, I was learning,
93
:biology and chemistry on a level.
94
:That I had never learned as
an undergraduate and I didn't
95
:do it in graduate school.
96
:And I was expected to know it
on a level that was somewhere
97
:between undergraduate and graduate.
98
:And I had to do it on a
timescale of six months.
99
:So I, I was really diving in deep
to learn about metabolic processes,
100
:raw ingredients, fermentation.
101
:There's so many things I had to learn.
102
:There were 10 times more involved
than anything I would have been
103
:exposed to in the world of homebrewing
or honestly, apprenticeships.
104
:Most apprenticeships never could
have touched on some of the
105
:things I would have learned.
106
:My, educators came from a different
time when everybody was a big brewer.
107
:So big brewers are really good brewers.
108
:And as much as we want to say bad
things about your millers and your
109
:quarters about how they're not awesome
to drink, they're not interesting.
110
:I should say they are
really good at brewing.
111
:They make the same thing every time.
112
:And that's the definition of quality.
113
:And so these guys came from that
school, not a school of thought.
114
:And so they were teaching us how
to make the same thing every time.
115
:And guys
116
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: and gals
117
:Bobby Fleshman: And gals, actually, we
probably were outnumbered in that class.
118
:I think in the end, those that succeeded
might've been more women than men.
119
:He said, yeah, it was a, it was a big,
it was a big, change in the brewing
120
:industry 11 years ago, 12 years ago.
121
:Gary Arndt: So I'm guessing most of the
people in this program, because you're
122
:getting a certification and nowadays the
whole point of education is basically,
123
:you know, some sort of certification
you get to please someone else that most
124
:of these people are going to work for.
125
:Some other brewery.
126
:And this is what they show
to show their credentials.
127
:You didn't do that, right?
128
:So you're getting a credential
that isn't necessarily going to be
129
:used to get you a job somewhere.
130
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, I think I was using
it as an, as education and as networking.
131
:And if the credential came into play all
the better, and that goes for my PhD.
132
:I don't ever put that post nominal
to my signature, but if it ever
133
:becomes relevant, then it's there.
134
:And there is a post nominal for my
brewing degree as well that I could apply.
135
:What is it?
136
:Gary Arndt: Just it's,
137
:Bobby Fleshman: it's a diploma brewer.
138
:It's too many letters.
139
:It's like D I P a brewer.
140
:It's too many.
141
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman:
It doesn't even was IBD.
142
:Bobby Fleshman: No, no.
143
:Cause there's several degrees.
144
:Gary Arndt: I would put that on
your business card just cause
145
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: yeah,
146
:Bobby Fleshman: Sorry, Gary, I lost
your, I lost my train of thought
147
:trying to think of my post nominal
148
:Gary Arndt: you get
this credential, right?
149
:So you go to the program.
150
:Yeah.
151
:Yeah.
152
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman:
Then what do you do?
153
:Well, so actually, so I call you up.
154
:So you're in beer school and I call
you up and I'm like, Hey, guess what?
155
:He's picking
156
:Bobby Fleshman: our next spot.
157
:Yeah.
158
:So the
159
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: goal was I'm going
to go, he'll follow me wherever I go.
160
:It's up to me to find the job somewhere.
161
:Cause I was going to do the
professor gig and Lawrence called.
162
:So I interviewed at Appleton.
163
:Can we
164
:Bobby Fleshman: pause for a minute?
165
:She just described being a
tenured professor at university.
166
:As the professor gigs professor.
167
:As if it's a weekend.
168
:It's
169
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: a verb.
170
:anyway, and so so we, I get
the job, which is fantastic.
171
:And then I call him up and
I was like, Hey, guess what?
172
:We're moving to Wisconsin.
173
:And the the physics department at
Lawrence was needing a physicist.
174
:And they said, Oh, well,
our new chemist is.
175
:Married to a physicist.
176
:Maybe he can take this job.
177
:So they interviewed you and they offered
you the job for a one year visiting
178
:assistant professor job, but then also
Hinterland Brewing Company up in Green Bay
179
:also wanted to interview because there was
a person who had the IBD diploma coming
180
:to town and so the brewery industry knows
that that, I mean, that is the credential.
181
:If you can have someone that has
IBD on your team, it's amazing.
182
:At the time, I think the only
other IBD in the state was.
183
:Well, at least in the craft
brewing industry was Dan
184
:Carey out of New Pairs, Dan
185
:Bobby Fleshman: Carey.
186
:And then soon after Brad, still mink.
187
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Cool.
188
:Yeah.
189
:it was a, a rare credential to
have 'cause it's so hard to get.
190
:And so we went up to Hinterland and
you interviewed there, and they offered
191
:you the job as a brewer there the same
day that Lawrence offered you the job.
192
:of the physics professorship
for a year and so it was a fun,
193
:Bobby Fleshman: it was a
fork and it was a fun day.
194
:What
195
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: do we do?
196
:So we went to Stone Arch to enjoy some
beer there and you decided, I think.
197
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, I wanted to immerse
myself in the academic community here.
198
:I, cause I knew I, I didn't want
to, I don't want to talk down to
199
:the options, but I knew that the
brewing jobs would always be there,
200
:but I don't think I was always going
to have an opportunity to teach.
201
:And it made, it made an, it made a
lot of sense actually from a money
202
:standpoint to cover our moving expenses.
203
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah, that's true.
204
:And just to I mean, we had just
come out of grad school, so we had
205
:not really many dimes to our name.
206
:But also I was terrified of Green
Bay because it was far away.
207
:I didn't know how far it was, 30 minute
drive, but we had no idea what winter was.
208
:And in Oklahoma, I would have been on the,
209
:Bobby Fleshman: I would have
been on the graveyard shift.
210
:I was
211
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: terrified of
you driving back and forth in winter.
212
:And so I was, I was very hopeful that
you didn't take the job for that reason.
213
:Gary Arndt: So your position at
Lawrence, was it a, like a postdoc type
214
:Bobby Fleshman: thing?
215
:Essentially.
216
:Yeah.
217
:I was, I was taking over a visit,
a rotating visitor position.
218
:And your position was more
of a tenure track one?
219
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yes.
220
:Bobby Fleshman: That's a whole story.
221
:She didn't even know she was
interviewing for a tenured position.
222
:Yeah.
223
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: It was a,
it was a visiting position that
224
:they switched over to a tenure line.
225
:And,
226
:Gary Arndt: and just so everybody
knows, like, that's the holy grail
227
:for like most academics, right?
228
:Hence the, you go through all this
garbage for years and the hope is
229
:you get a tenure track position.
230
:You get set up, you get
a nice job for life.
231
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yup.
232
:Yeah.
233
:I'm hired for life.
234
:Gary Arndt: What are the options?
235
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh, you're
hired for life or you're fired.
236
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
237
:So as you're until you're 10 years,
what a colleague of mine described
238
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: tenure to be.
239
:But the idea is, is you have this
academic freedom and you can explore
240
:your research in ways and the even
more holy grail is working at Lawrence.
241
:Cause it's a very small college.
242
:So I don't have to do like,
and it's undergraduates only.
243
:So it's not the graduate students and
I don't have to go after big grants.
244
:I can really focus on teaching and
working with students, which is fantastic.
245
:And the other fun thing about Lawrence was
even on my interview, They're not allowed
246
:to ask any questions about like, do you
have a spouse and what do they do there?
247
:anything about Appleton that we can
tell you about for any reason at all?
248
:And I was like, well, is, can
y'all, is it okay if we go
249
:around to some of the breweries?
250
:And they're like, Oh, okay.
251
:And so one of my.
252
:My colleagues took me up to Green Bay
and we went brewery hopping, and he was
253
:like, yeah, I don't know why she wants to.
254
:I was like, it's fine.
255
:I just really like beer.
256
:What they didn't know is of course
is I was really wanting to look
257
:at the comp, not competition,
I mean all of these breweries.
258
:The landscape.
259
:Yeah.
260
:Look at the landscape and is
there a spot in like is Appleton
261
:in need of another brewery?
262
:Especially one that with the vision
of what we were kind of building.
263
:Gary Arndt: So your decision to come here
was obviously based on the job offer.
264
:Yep.
265
:Did you have any idea at the
time, the history of beer?
266
:In this area.
267
:Bobby Fleshman: Oh yeah.
268
:That, that's the part she
asked me over the phone.
269
:She did have options at the
time and of where we would land.
270
:And it was between Boston and
Australia, which would have been cool.
271
:I, if I remember, right.
272
:Oh no,
273
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: that didn't.
274
:Well,
275
:Bobby Fleshman: the point though
being, she did ask, would it be
276
:a good spot to open a brewery?
277
:In Wisconsin beer.
278
:And I laughed on the
other end of that line.
279
:And I was going to school with some people
that were from Michigan and Minnesota.
280
:And they also laughed at that.
281
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: In all
fairness, I wasn't at, you know,
282
:Bobby Fleshman: it will, it,
283
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman:
I can just make it funny.
284
:Bobby Fleshman: But, but what did work out
is we moved at a time when there was more.
285
:One brewery in Appleton stone arch,
the, the, our neighbors, the Appleton
286
:beer factory had not yet open open.
287
:And there was a brewery in grand
shoot Fox river brewing company, but
288
:that really is based out of Oshkosh.
289
:So we moved into a really ripe moment
in the, in the history of beer for
290
:this, for this particular city.
291
:So the reason I ask
292
:Gary Arndt: is because at least in like
growing up in the seventies, Probably
293
:earlier, when it was the era of big beer.
294
:Wisconsin really was the world's, the
nation's largest beer manufacturer,
295
:most of that coming out of Milwaukee,
Miller, Pabst, Schlitz, Hams, you know,
296
:every German name that a lot of Germans
settled in this area, they created
297
:breweries and this was sort of the
beer center of the world for a while.
298
:We tell like the craft brewing,
you know, wave started.
299
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah.
300
:We knew about, we knew about New Glarus.
301
:And a friend of ours in graduate
school was from Milwaukee.
302
:And so he would come back and forth
over the holidays and he would bring
303
:us back a big box of spotted cow.
304
:And we were like, Oh my gosh, spotted cow.
305
:This is amazing.
306
:And so we knew that there was
a really good beer scene here.
307
:I don't think, at least I didn't
appreciate the rich history that was here.
308
:Bobby Fleshman: I did.
309
:I, I knew about the logger scene.
310
:I was definitely keyed in on that.
311
:It's why that we launched with loggers.
312
:We knew we were going to
make a lot of loggers.
313
:I think four of our top five
sellers are loggers today.
314
:There's a German heritage here
that we wanted to respect.
315
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And that was
actually something that we figured
316
:out when you were writing the business
plan for what the brewery would be like
317
:really what our kind of goal beer styles
would be when you did some digging to
318
:find the German and Irish heritage.
319
:Gary Arndt: So, all right,
so let's go to that point.
320
:You're both teaching at a university.
321
:When does the point come where you pull
the trigger or you make the decision
322
:like We're gonna open a brewery.
323
:Oh god.
324
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Well, that
325
:Bobby Fleshman: decision was made Like
I said when I was cleaning those kegs 20
326
:years prior, but I mean that's like yeah.
327
:Yeah Aspirational
328
:Gary Arndt: that's true, right?
329
:It's not like Honey, we're going
to a bank and you know, we're,
330
:something's on the line and you
got to, you know, it becomes real.
331
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: I think that
is when we talked to our parents
332
:about getting investing going.
333
:That's when I think it really
started to become the goal.
334
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
335
:Or it
336
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman:
became real, I should say.
337
:Yeah,
338
:Bobby Fleshman: because, right, if, to
be honest, if we don't have investment,
339
:then I'm still at another brewery.
340
:I'm just as happy.
341
:It's just a different path.
342
:we had to have investors.
343
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: So we talked
to my mother and then Bobby's parents.
344
:And so both families bought in Bobby's
parents were much more active than
345
:my mother, but it was that point
that it became an actual, like,
346
:Bobby Fleshman: now the groundwork was,
was, was laid, not just, we're talking
347
:about the networking and the experience
that I got in brewing school, but the
348
:net, the groundwork was laid here in town.
349
:I worked on and off for two years
at Stone Arch Brewing Company,
350
:overlapping honestly with what I
was doing at Lawrence University.
351
:So I, I was, I was getting to
know this local brewing scene.
352
:And something very specific about, about
beer here and the business of a beer here.
353
:I was helping these guys across the
alley at the beer factory, with any
354
:number of technical and artistic, if
you like to say it that way, decisions.
355
:And yeah, so it wasn't as though
we, we were just some ghost
356
:and then we just, fabricated.
357
:We were the first people we met in town
outside of Lawrence University were the
358
:owners of the Appleton beer factory.
359
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: That was fun.
360
:We were religious about every
Sunday going to ABF for about 2 p.
361
:m.
362
:and just every Sunday
we were sit there 2 p.
363
:m.
364
:And which is the perfect time.
365
:If you want to go to a brewery, go when,
you know, not many people are there and
366
:you can really start to talk to people.
367
:And we started to talk to the
bar manager, his name is Larry.
368
:He has since moved on, but,
actually he's still an owner.
369
:But then he was like telling Jeff
Fogle, Hey, you got to meet this guy.
370
:And so Jeff made a point to come by
on one Sunday when we would come by.
371
:And the friendship was born.
372
:Bobby Fleshman: And just to summarize
our relationship with these guys,
373
:we're, we're not business partners,
but we are spiritual partners.
374
:And we, we, we do share
a lot of equipment.
375
:because it only makes sense, but
we just are spiritually aligned
376
:and, and that's why we chose to,
to move in next door to them.
377
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: When we'd already
seen this model too, and Fort Collins,
378
:you, you know, there's breweries right
next door on entire blocks that are just
379
:five or six breweries right in a row.
380
:And so they're really not
competitors with each other.
381
:They really do help each, you know,
the business helps each other.
382
:I'm sure
383
:Gary Arndt: we'll talk about this
in a future episode, but you are
384
:literally, you're literally 10 paces.
385
:Yeah.
386
:And that we'll get into that later.
387
:And we actually
388
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman:
bought this building because
389
:we are 10 paces from them.
390
:Gary Arndt: One of the things I find
interesting about your story is that
391
:of all the academics I know, let's just
say they're rather risk adverse people.
392
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: That's funny.
393
:Gary Arndt: You get a tenure track job.
394
:It's safe.
395
:And.
396
:Obviously there are a lot of them
aren't politically conservative,
397
:but they're kind of personally,
you know, rather conservative.
398
:They're not risk takers.
399
:So this seems like a very, you know,
you can, you can have your story about,
400
:you know, you studied and learn physics
and everything, but then that jump from,
401
:you know, student to entrepreneur seems
like a real big one for an academic.
402
:That it's something that a lot of,
you know, maybe some Silicon Valley
403
:people do it, but you don't see it
a whole lot in other disciplines.
404
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Well, Bobby had
actually jumped off that cliff before.
405
:Bobby Fleshman: I was going to say that
this is where my parents, even if they
406
:didn't introduce, introduce me to beer,
they introduced me to entrepreneurship.
407
:They, they had a real estate company.
408
:And then they, my, my father
works in the oil and gas industry.
409
:And Oklahoma, which is the second
biggest industry in Oklahoma.
410
:In fact, Allison's father did too.
411
:Those are businesses they
created my parents and then
412
:they started to build homes.
413
:And my dad was a general contractor.
414
:My first job was building homes.
415
:I think I learned how to open
businesses and jump off the cliff
416
:without even thinking about it.
417
:I
418
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: was about to say,
let's say a little bit more about that.
419
:Like your, your dad was doing
like the land brokerage, your
420
:mom was a real estate agent.
421
:she's actually the president of the real
estate company of like the state, but
422
:then you didn't just build how, like you
didn't just like work as a carpenter.
423
:You truly built the houses
like from start to finish.
424
:Bobby Fleshman: I didn't go to college
essentially until I was 25 years old.
425
:Yeah, I was building
homes until that point.
426
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And so his company
was rather successful and you were about
427
:to really invest and make it even bigger
because you were building homes right
428
:around, I mean, and Elk City was growing
where you were, out in Western Oklahoma,
429
:but then someone gave you a book.
430
:And so instead of being an entrepreneur
and being inspired by your dad who
431
:could help you, you know, build this
company, you decided to do something
432
:else and jump off a different cliff.
433
:Bobby Fleshman: but to
Gary's point and, and.
434
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh, come on.
435
:I let it talk to the book about the book.
436
:Bobby Fleshman: So, okay.
437
:We're going to jump off to that.
438
:Thank you.
439
:So I learned entrepreneurship
from my parents, but here we go.
440
:The, the book that was handed
to me was on quantum physics.
441
:And if anyone's listening, wants
to know in summary what that means.
442
:Is that the world is very much
more strange than, than what
443
:you deal with on the daily.
444
:The smaller you look you,
you find odd behaviors,
445
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: whatever,
quantum mechanics, light is a particle
446
:Bobby Fleshman: part of what I
read this book and it's called
447
:in search of Schrodinger's
448
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: cap.
449
:If you're interested by John Gibbon,
450
:Bobby Fleshman: John Gribbon, sorry.
451
:So I shut the book and I just said,
I don't understand the world that
452
:I live in and coincident to this.
453
:This is my.
454
:this person must know me really
well to hand me that book.
455
:They knew it would, they knew
I would not be able to just
456
:close the book and move on.
457
:I don't know is if that's
a good thing or a curse.
458
:My sister had actually been
going to college at the time.
459
:She was also a physicist.
460
:She actually ended up being a,
business major at the end of it all.
461
:But that got my, I got the contacts that
I needed through her department and I
462
:showed up at the age of 24 years old.
463
:And he said, come this summer, I'll,
we'll throw you in this program.
464
:I said, I want to be a physicist.
465
:And at this time I'm thinking, I'm
going to just learn physics and
466
:then, and then see where this goes.
467
:And this is when I thought that there
is just like a book that you just learn
468
:physics from, even at 24 years old,
four years old, I was still that naive.
469
:So anyway, he says, all right,
do all of these math problems
470
:and come back and And we'll talk.
471
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: It was an
entire book of college algebra.
472
:So you're starting at the very beginning.
473
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, literally
every single problem in the book.
474
:Gary Arndt: I find this
interesting because most academics
475
:go from kindergarten to PhD
and they never leave school.
476
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yep.
477
:That was my route.
478
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, there
I have a very nonlinear path.
479
:Yes.
480
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: But in
that nonlinearity you you You're
481
:comfortable with jumping off the cliff
and it almost became a joke when it
482
:Bobby Fleshman: explains the
483
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: what
careers Bobby going to have next.
484
:but it, I mean, we love you though,
but the skills that you developed
485
:made opening a brewery, building it
ourselves, the entrepreneur idea,
486
:like it was already there and he'd
actually practiced it a couple of times.
487
:Whereas most academics
like myself don't do that.
488
:We stick to that narrow path.
489
:Bobby Fleshman: Being a PhD is.
490
:Is that you have done it?
491
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Well, I
know, but it, it, in terms of the,
492
:what seems like an abrupt change, or
actually it's jumping off that cliff
493
:without a safety net because it,
you know, it's, a tenure track job.
494
:I mean, unless the university
closes is pretty nice gig.
495
:Cause you know, you're
going to have a job.
496
:It's ultimate job security.
497
:Whereas entrepreneurship is like, not
498
:Bobby Fleshman: without
sounding self indulgent.
499
:It's something that you don't know
about yourself until you press yourself.
500
:And you, you either have that
character trait that allows you to
501
:climb out on the wing or you don't.
502
:And I don't think that it's, I don't
think that it is related to your history.
503
:It's just something about whoever you are.
504
:If you happen to be an academic or
not, it just It's just something
505
:that's in me and I, maybe I inherited
it or observed it from my parents,
506
:but jumping out of the plane was
always something I was willing to do.
507
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And
you, your, your family had a
508
:lot of their own businesses.
509
:So your grandfather ran a
dental lab, he made dentures and
510
:actually, Oh, this is a fun story.
511
:Can I go a little sidetrack?
512
:Let's go
513
:Bobby Fleshman: way back.
514
:So
515
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman:
Bobby has so many skills.
516
:He learned to weld in high school,
so he welded a lot of the stuff here.
517
:He, Carpenter.
518
:So most of the wood stuff
that you see, he helped build
519
:with with your brother in law.
520
:And so there's all these
different skills that he has.
521
:He can be really crazy.
522
:He's also made his own gold tooth.
523
:So this is a party trick, right?
524
:So he has a gold tooth.
525
:Show it around.
526
:I know it's a podcast, but still, okay.
527
:Gold tooth.
528
:But when you was, when you were what?
529
:Bobby Fleshman: 12 years old.
530
:So his
531
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: first,
your first job really was working
532
:at your grandfather's dental lab.
533
:He made dentures.
534
:And so you would sweep up the gold dust.
535
:A quarter an hour.
536
:Bobby Fleshman: I'm some
kid walking around sweeping.
537
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Anyway.
538
:And so he learned how to
539
:Bobby Fleshman: Because
there's gold in that dirt.
540
:Melted it down.
541
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: But
you, you were skilled enough.
542
:Then he taught you how to make teeth.
543
:And so you got to make
your own gold tooth.
544
:That's still in, which is just hysterical.
545
:I
546
:Bobby Fleshman: think it's
insane, but it's still in.
547
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Your
family, many members of your family
548
:have run successful businesses.
549
:So whereas my family was very
much, the academic track and
550
:my father was an engineer.
551
:He was very like, okay, we're going
to focus and support you that way.
552
:Your parents taught you, you know,
yes, they valued education, but also
553
:you were part of those businesses.
554
:Bobby Fleshman: Hearing it said
that way makes me understand or
555
:say that Gary could have asked.
556
:What made me do academia?
557
:Because that I'm the first
generation to get a degree.
558
:So that, that was more my
jumping out of a plane.
559
:Gary Arndt: There are a lot
of parallels in our lives.
560
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
561
:Gary Arndt: Oh yeah.
562
:Bobby Fleshman: Okay.
563
:Gary Arndt: Cause I've like
reinvented myself umpteen times.
564
:I started a business.
565
:Everyone's like, why are
you going to do that?
566
:And that was successful.
567
:And then I went back to
school, studied science.
568
:But I realized I don't want to get a PhD
after having seen so many people do it.
569
:I was thinking of going into
planetary science, right?
570
:I was looking at like Brown,
Arizona state and Caltech.
571
:And, someone was at the
university of Minnesota.
572
:They explained to me like, well,
here's how it's going to happen.
573
:You, you know, work on some program at
NASA, and then you spend 10 years on it.
574
:And then the rocket blows
up on the pad or it crashes.
575
:And you've wasted, you
know, a decade of your life.
576
:And I was just like, yeah, I'm
going to go travel around the world.
577
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Oh
my gosh, this is so similar.
578
:But
579
:Gary Arndt: What you said about
this being a personality trait.
580
:I absolutely believe that.
581
:And I've told that to
a lot of people there.
582
:I get people that ask me all the time.
583
:It's like, Oh, I want to
be a podcast and do this.
584
:And like, either you have it or you
don't, and it's not a bad thing.
585
:There are some people out there
that, you know, I've, I've
586
:never had a real job in my life.
587
:I've always done my own thing
and there have been very
588
:highs and lows and in between.
589
:But I, I wouldn't do it any other way.
590
:Did the fact that you were married
to someone On a tenure track
591
:offer a little bit of stability.
592
:Like that's sort of like
the, oh, that's the only
593
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: way we can do this
594
:.
Bobby Fleshman: Oh hell yeah.
595
:That there's, there's no way
this happens without a stable
596
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Yeah.
597
:I breadwinner.
598
:I am the he, he's the bread maker.
599
:I'm the breadwinner
600
:And I we're hoping
601
:Bobby Fleshman: this is our retirement.
602
:Yes.
603
:Yeah.
604
:Yeah.
605
:And this is
606
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman:
when it's been, I will say.
607
:Building a brewery can put a lot of
strain on a marriage and you're good
608
:at putting strain on a marriage.
609
:but I remember that we were
going to wait until after I got
610
:tenure to start the brewery.
611
:That was my hope because worst
case scenario, now granted
612
:I'm really good, so it's fine.
613
:and I was going to get tenure, but
I, you know, you never know and
614
:you know, you do the best you can.
615
:But I really wanted to wait.
616
:But then the building opportunity.
617
:Came to buy it and It's like we're
gonna jump off the cliff and he just
618
:went ahead and he was like, nope,
we're gonna do it We're not gonna wait.
619
:So what year did this
620
:Gary Arndt: happen?
621
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: This was in
:
622
:2019 And I would have known about it
a little earlier But I really wanted
623
:to make sure that I was gonna get it.
624
:So I And it
625
:Bobby Fleshman: was at least a
couple of years of finishing that
626
:process and me breaking ground here
and going through the loan process.
627
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: And so we
started, we jumped off a little
628
:faster than I wanted, but it,
629
:Bobby Fleshman: but I, but it's
the timescale that I work on.
630
:You can't
631
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: stop Bobby.
632
:That's one thing I've learned is
like, are you, What something my
633
:father used to say was like, lead,
follow or get out of the way.
634
:And you definitely get
out of the way with Bobby.
635
:He is gonna do stuff and you
just don't stand in his way.
636
:And if you can, you know, support
him so you can go farther.
637
:I believe in you, sweetie.
638
:Bobby Fleshman: Well, hopefully
it doesn't sound like I'm
639
:walking on people to get there.
640
:Oh,
641
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: no, no, no,
not, I don't, oh, that sounds bad, no.
642
:You're crushing
643
:Bobby Fleshman: all of your enemies.
644
:No,
645
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: sorry, he's
just, Which is brewing supremacy.
646
:I mean, he's getting up at 4 a.
647
:m.
648
:when he still has to finish
his dissertation to go clean
649
:kegs for, like, nothing.
650
:Bobby Fleshman: So, you, But it was clear
that it was for something in the long run.
651
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman:
Extreme work ethic.
652
:Gary Arndt: All right.
653
:Well, let's pause the conversation
here and in the next episode, I
654
:want to really start with the the
origins of McFleshman's and, and how
655
:that started and how you went from
nothing to a brewery year of your own.
656
:Perfect.
657
:Allison McCoy-Fleshman: Go team.