Episode 60: You May Be Divorcing a Narcissist, Here’s How to Tell

Guest: Jeff Wright

Jeff Wright is a performance coach, speaker, and someone I’m grateful to call a friend and mentor. He runs a global insurance firm and has built tremendous success professionally — but what really defines Jeff is his commitment to helping people change their lives. He’s the ultimate change-maker, and he genuinely does this work because it matters to him. His perspective on narcissism isn’t just professional — it’s personal. Jeff grew up with a father who struggled with alcoholism and narcissistic behavior, so he understands these dynamics firsthand. Through his coaching and his Instagram platform, @therealjeffwright, he breaks down narcissistic traits, high-conflict behavior, and the difference between patterns and personality disorders with clarity and depth. I’m excited for you to hear this conversation.

Website: Jeff's Website

Connect with Jeff Wright Here:

@therealjeffwright on Instagram

Jeff on YouTube

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Summary

In this episode, Jeff and Tania explore narcissistic traits, their impact on relationships, especially during divorce, and practical strategies for managing interactions with narcissists. They discuss passive-aggressive behaviors, active listening, and maintaining emotional control to protect oneself.

Keywords

narcissism, relationships, divorce, passive-aggressive, emotional intelligence, communication strategies, narcissistic traits, conflict resolution, co-parenting, emotional control

Key Topics

Narcissistic traits and behaviors

Impact of narcissism on relationships and divorce

Strategies for effective communication and emotional control

Takeaways

1. Most people have some narcissistic traits, but only a small percentage have narcissistic personality disorder.
2. Passive-aggressive behavior often overlaps with narcissistic traits and can be used to manipulate or criticize subtly.
3. Active listening and staying neutral, brief, and factual can disarm narcissistic attacks and reduce conflict.
4. Controlling your emotional reactions is crucial; emotional reactions feed narcissistic behavior.
5. Consistently applying the same communication strategies is necessary to prevent narcissists from reverting to old behaviors.
6. Avoiding conflict and not speaking badly about your ex to children helps protect their emotional well-being.
7. Modeling healthy behavior and maintaining high-road communication influences children positively.

Titles

1. Understanding Narcissistic Traits in Divorce: Practical Strategies
2. How to Manage Narcissistic Behaviors During Co-Parenting

Sound Bites

"Everybody has a little bit of narcissism in them."

"Model healthy behavior to influence children positively."

"Avoid avoiding conflict; it only makes problems worse."

Chapters

00:00 Understanding Narcissism in Today's Society

02:39 Traits of Narcissistic Behavior

04:45 Identifying Narcissistic Responses

07:44 The Importance of Active Listening

10:29 Managing Emotions in Conversations

13:33 Effective Communication Strategies

16:08 Conflict Avoidance vs. Conflict Efficiency

22:31 The Burden of Unspoken Words

24:38 Choosing Your Battles in Relationships

27:06 The Ripple Effect of Family Dynamics

31:27 Recognizing Narcissistic Behaviors

31:57 The Role of Parents in Shaping Narcissism

32:56 Navigating Co-Parenting with a Narcissist

34:49 The Importance of Taking the High Road

36:01 Modeling Behavior for Future Generations

44:15 Introduction to Amicable Divorce

45:37 Resources for Support and Growth

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methods, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter, our private Facebook group, our Instagram channel, and a library of articles and free webinars to help you along the way. When you go to our website, you'll be able to schedule a free 45-minute breakthrough call. Remember, we're here to help you reach an amicable resolution. Find your courage and believe in your brighter future because you know what? It is possible.

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Welcome to episode 60 of the Better Than Bitter™ podcast. Today, we are diving into a hot topic. It is narcissism, especially when it comes to divorce. Jeff Wright is a social media sensation and a real pro when it comes to understanding narcissistic behaviors.

But he is also the CEO of a huge company called Agent Sales Group that has nothing to do with narcissistic behaviors. But don't worry, his insights on narcissism come from more of a personal experience and deep introspection, and he wants to help others. So this has nothing to do with his corporate role, but he is here to share his experiences with you. So you think you're divorcing a narcissist, but is that true?

Well, if you're curious, then you are in the right place. So Jeff and I are here to break it all down for all of you. We are going to help you navigate that relationship better. We're going to talk about some super practical strategies and ways for you to handle some narcissistic attacks.

And trust me, these tips are worth gold because I know that if you are co-parenting and you are having to move forward to re-envision a relationship or a partnership with your soon-to-be ex or your ex, you are going to need these tools in your toolbox. So you might be wondering if some of these behavioral traits are learned behaviors or if people born with them, and wondering if you are going to pass these on,

to your kids. We are going to answer some of those questions today. So, where you're contemplating divorce, or you are in the process of divorce or post-divorce, all of this information will impact the way you move yourself forward. So go ahead, let's get comfy, grab a cup of coffee, maybe a glass of wine, and let's get into it. Welcome, Jeff.

Thank you so much for having me on. look forward to talking to you today. I really appreciate it. And thanks for the wonderful info, intro.

Yes,

Yes. So, what I, you, and I have had some conversations leading up to this podcast. And one of my favorite things that we continue to talk about is this: everybody is a narcissist. So why don't you explain where your perspective is as it relates to narcissism and how we can kind of share with the audience this term that has literally just blown up?

A friend of mine told me the other day that narcissism is kind of the new N-word now because everybody uses it. If someone says something that offends someone or they don't agree with, they're automatically labeled as a narcissist. Well, the thing is, there isn't a person walking around on this earth who doesn't have a little bit of narcissism in them. I just went to the Atlanta airport.

⁓ this weekend to see my grandchildren and just walking through their people or, or knocking other people over, trying to get to their flights. And I'm sitting there thinking to myself, if you don't think everyone has a little bit of narcissism in them, go to the Atlanta airport, and you'll see it on full display. Everybody has it. And imagine a two-year-old who, what, what do they do if they don't get their way? What do they do? They just have complete meltdowns.

And that meltdown doesn't end until what? Until they get their way. But it's very interesting. You know, it depends on who you ask. I've Googled up how many people actually have the narcissistic disorder, personality disorder. And it's actually a very small number of people that actually have maybe, maybe two or 3 % of the population that has it. But, but

As far as it being a disorder, I still think that that's small, but everybody is going to have those traits in them. I don't care who you are. They're all going to have

So let's talk about those traits, because you reference them as having it, meaning having narcissism. But what are the traits that are so often just used or seen when it comes to showing narcissistic behaviors?

First and foremost, they don't want to be wrong about anything. They would rather die than admit that they're wrong. They don't want to take any accountability. And that's a big problem. And that's true of a lot of things out there. If you look at the whole scope of what's going on in politics or business, or you take a worldview,

of almost anything. People believe what they believe, and they will never change their minds about it. And the same thing goes on inside the house. People will never change their minds or admit to changing their minds on anything that they took a hard stand on. Another big trait that they have is that there are two kinds of narcissists typically in the home.

One is the one that's very loud about things, the one that snaps at people, the one who's always correcting people. But to me, the worst one, which was the one that I was married to, is the one that's passive-aggressive. The passive-aggressive narcissist is always a victim. You know, one of the

Have you ever had this conversation with someone and they ask you a question and you said, well, can you clarify that? And they'll say, well, if I have to tell you then, you don't know. Yeah. That kind of bullshit. just drives me nuts where you have to play guessing games of trying to figure out what it is that they have on their mind. You know, it's like, I have an 86 year old mother who likes to hint around for things and, and I tell her all the time.

No one likes hinting. No one likes it. Just open your mouth and say what you want. Somebody's going to get it for you. But it's the people who are expecting you to read their mind constantly. And you and I both know that's not possible. It can't happen.

So is that passive-aggressive behavior a narcissistic trait or, or is that just passive-aggressive behavior?

think it's both. I think it's both because I have never met anyone who was passive-aggressive who didn't have a lot of narcissistic traits.

So I'm going to give you a scenario, and I'm going to say something, and you let me know if this behavior, in your opinion, would be narcissistic. So I said to my ex, hey, you're going to go pick up Joey at school today. He likes to be picked up in the back. So when you get there, do you mind driving to the back and picking him up from the playground?

And their response is, what? You don't think I know how to pick up my kid from school? What, do you think I'm an idiot? If you don't think I can do it, then you just pick him up.

Yeah, that's absolutely narcissistic.

All right. So let's break that down. Why and what about that is narcissistic behavior?

Well, when you said that to him, and he spewed it out that way, he wants to let you know that, no, I'm not stupid. I know what to do. You know, he's, he's, he already knows that, that, know, that he knows what to do, but this is just his little jab at you, saying, what do you think? I'm an idiot. I know where to pick him up. I know what he likes. He's my son too. You know, I know.

The other thing is that, a lot of people still carry that hate or I'm not going to say hate, but they carry that resentment around with them that at any opportunity that, that they have that they can throw a jab at their ex, they're going to do it. Me, I don't do it. Don't, I don't, I don't throw any jabs at my ex at all.

My mother, in fact, saw my ex not long ago and is telling me all about what she's got going on in her life and all that. And it's almost like my mother's baiting me to try to get a reaction out of me. And I'm just like, okay, yeah, that's great. No, she's not my wife anymore. I don't care. Good for her. I wish her well, but that is the biggest thing I think is going on with him is that he is going to take any and every opportunity.

to throw chaps at you that he can. It probably doesn't even matter where they come from.

So, but listening to the statement before you heard the response, what do you believe to be okay? Like when I was just asking, like, hey, you know, this is what the plan is today. You're picking up, you're, you know, normally pickups in the back, you know, just as a normal person, not a narcissist.

What do you think about those instructions? Does that feel condescending? How does that feel?

No, not

at all. Not at all. think it's clear and concise. You didn't say, you know, he likes being picked up back here. You just said he likes it back there. And how often does your husband or your ex-husband pick him up? Is it something that happens on a regular basis? Is it something that you felt like you needed to remind him of maybe because he doesn't do it that often.

Yeah.

Yeah. Again, this is not a true life story. This is just a scenario build, but you're right. So it has more to do with, is this the first time that he's picking him up from school on Tuesdays? Does he ever pick up? Maybe it's not something that they do all the time. But one of the things that I teach when I talk to people about what I consider, this is more of a covert narcissistic,

Okay.

behavior, maybe it's not grandiose, but it's just the distorting of the situation to distort it in a way that sounds critical. Because I didn't say it as if I was critiquing. If I were critiquing, it would have sounded something like, the last time you picked him up, you picked him up in the front. He doesn't like to be picked up in the front. You need to learn to go to the back of the building and pick him up near the playground.

Now that would be critical, right?

That would

be critical and passive-aggressive. Yes.

I

did not say that. I was just very clear that it was time, it was a pickup, pickups in the back, and the pickup was near the playground. And so again, it's the distortion that some people take or do to change the script to make it sound critical in their own brain. And then once they make that flip, that's when they come, and they bite back. So when you're dealing with somebody who's a

covert narcissist, the misinterpretation, right, is what you're dealing with. And if you're constantly chasing that misinterpretation as a person on the receiving end, and then you're rewording things, you're apologizing a million times, you're trying to change your tone when dealing with a covert narcissist, or maybe even you are trying to coddle them because you've recognized that you...

They're feeling criticized. Like that's what you don't want to do. Once you get divorced, you just say, " You're picking up Joey today. And you don't even engage in the possibility of giving too much explanation, so they can flip the script, make a distortion, and then come down on you for it. So, you know, that's how you deal with it. And that's what we teach. But again, I find it so interesting because there is a very fine line.

You just heard me say it in two different ways. And there was a very fine line between yes, one was being critical, and the other one was just stating a fact. But it was being interpreted differently.

Yeah. One thing that these people thrive on, what really gets them off, is your emotions. Your emotions will feed that narcissism. It'll feed the need that they have for validation of giving that jab or hitting you with that verbal punch is your reaction to it.

What I do is because I'm in a lot of sworn depositions all the time. I talk to a lot of attorneys, and I can sit in a sworn deposition for eight hours, just getting hammered by attorneys. And I will have the personality of this pair of glasses. I just sit there. don't, because here's the thing, the more emotional you get,

in anything. The more emotional you get, the more control that they have over you. If you're not giving them any emotions back, if you're gray rocking them, if you're just sitting there like a pigeon on a fence post doing nothing, they don't know how to handle that. They don't know how to handle it because that's oxygen that's being deprived of their fire.

They're not getting any of that. So the more that you cut your emotions out of the equation, the better off you're going to be because the less effective they're going to be in whatever it is that they're trying to hit you with.

I always use the term with my clients, be boring. And being boring is really just what I call BNF, brief, neutral, and factual. Stay brief, stay neutral, stay factual. But my clients are so great when they talk about scenarios that are happening in their lives, and they'll say, " You'd be so proud. I was so boring in my response.

Yes.

It's just something that you can very easily remember because when you're bored, you have nothing to feed their fire. As you said, there's nothing for them to feed off of. If you stay completely neutral, you stay brief, you're staying with the facts. And when I had given that scenario about picking up Joey, there was too much explanation there. There were too many times that

They could have heard it differently from what I said. And so you need to stay brief. So it's not just about neutral and factual. It's got to be brief.

The one thing that I have learned in doing all this social media that I do is that people really only hear what they want to hear. And that's a big problem with a lot of people. Most people only hear to respond. Very, very, very few people actually listen to understand.

Mmm.

If you want to develop any kind of superpower in relationships or business, listening is the biggest superpower that you can have because the more that you listen, the more that you can read them, the more emotional intelligence that you develop about that. Not only is that going to help you build your relationship with the person, but it'll also help you protect yourself from a lot of pitfalls.

that you otherwise wouldn't have avoided by just reacting to everything that they say.

So let's dive a little deeper into listening because there are different types of listening. As you said, there's listening and hearing, and then there's listening and maybe responding. You're already creating the dialogue in your head once the information comes in. You've already crafted that response before they're even done. So I know that a real practice in the divorce process is active listening. And I think that's really what you're trying to explain, to be an active listener is to be checking for understanding and getting clarity on what you're hearing, so you can respond effectively.

Is that kind of what we're talking about here?

Exactly.

Exactly. And not only that, but when you do active listening, let them do most of the talking, and you will say some things to have them clarify a few things. know, one of the ways you do that is through what they call using a mirror. So if you said, " It's cold here today, I would just say it's cold. And then you would start.

explaining how much snow you have in your backyard. And you would start explaining all this, because most people would say, " You told me when we got on, it's freezing up here in Massachusetts. And I could have just kicked in and said, well, I'm in Miami, and it's 46 degrees outside this morning. It's cold here, too. That totally negates everything that you said. That is an example.

of hearing to respond, not listening to understand. But when you tell me it's cold up there, I'll say it's cold. And then you tell me how much snow you got, and you say, well, my car is buried. And I would come back and say, " Your car's buried. And then you would tell me more and more and more. Now, I learned this in a lot of places. There's a guy named Chris Voss, who's the FBI negotiator who really talks about this, but,

I may have told you I'm married to a Russian.

I had to learn these techniques very quickly. Otherwise, I couldn't have stayed married to her because of the language and the way that she communicates, and the way that I communicate. And it completely brought us much closer together than I ever thought that it would just by using these kinds of techniques. Because not only does it help me listen to her more by having her expand more,

But even more importantly, it shows her that I actually care and I'm actually listening to what she has to say. When I have a conversation with her or when I have a conversation really with anybody, I really try to make that conversation all about them. And most people don't do that. Most people don't do that at all.

So I think that it's actually really interesting that we're talking about active listening because I have to communicate with somebody who has narcissistic behavioral traits. And again, when you get divorced, just because you've signed those papers doesn't mean that this partnership ends. If you have children, you are going to be in partnership with this other person in...

a variety of different ways as time goes on. And so learning effective communication with somebody who has some behavioral traits, such as narcissistic, passive-aggressive, or maybe overly sensitive, as it relates to distorting criticism. But this active listening technique goes very, very well with the brief, neutral, and factual, right? Because at the end of the day, if somebody is speaking with you,

And you can't control how they communicate with you. You can only control how you communicate with them. Right. So even if they are responding in a fight, flight, or freeze moment, and they're biting your head off, you can retract, right? Think about it. Exactly. But the act of listening would be a really great way. Ask the question back.

You can control how you react to it.

So what I'm hearing you say is that right? Am I in trouble?

It is, but let me,

Let me tell you the bad news about that, though. Cause there is a bad thing about it.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, go. Bring it

on. Bring it on.

And that is, let's say you go to your ex-husband and you apply some techniques, and it works, and you walk away. Wow. He wasn't really an asshole this time. It worked out great. You think you've gotten him trained. You haven't. Whatever it was that you did that worked, that you got a good outcome from, you've got to do that every time.

Every single time, because if you don't, he will go right back to being the way that he was. It's not a one-and-done. It is when you deal, and I tell people this, when you deal with a drunk narcissist, and you find something that really works well for you every day, it's like Groundhog Day. You have to do the same exact thing every single time. Otherwise.

They're just gonna slide right back to where they were. That's

No, totally. Mean, it is, the whole process is exhausting because all of this takes so much more work, right? You can't just be you, hope that somebody is just chill enough to like take it in, let it go. At the end of the day, I know that from a covert narcissist or narcissistic behavioral perspective that...

There are different ways that people ⁓ respond. And some people are like, well, that person has become conflict-avoidant because they were in this relationship and they just completely shut down, or they're able to notice that there's conflict, talk about it for a moment, and then just move forward. So there's a real difference between being conflict-avoidant and conflict-inefficient.

I am conflict efficient because I recognize the conflict. I resolve the conflict, not by not speaking up, but just like, what is it that we are trying to get to as it relates to the solution? Let's not focus on the problem. Let's focus on the solution. And then let's move on.

But if you're working with somebody like your ex or a covert narcissist, they might not talk to you for three days. They might not talk to you for four days. They're hoping that you are going to suffer because of whatever that was. And that wasn't me. I was just conflict efficient. I'm like, okay, I don't want to be bothered by this anymore. I'm done.

Yeah, they won't just hold onto it for three days. They'll hold onto it for 30 years. ⁓ you can, you can do anything that you know, even if you made a funny mistake 20 years ago, they're still going to bring it up. Just any little thing that they can do to get a jab out of you. But, you know, honestly, I think.

Yes, totally.

you

The biggest reason why there are so many divorces now, even with narcissists and drunks, is that people are terrified to have conflict. They avoid conflict. And what happens is the dangerous thing about avoiding conflict. When you attack something, for lack of a better term, you're ripping the band-aid off.

Well, what happens when you rip a Band-Aid off? It's just going to sting for a little bit, but then it's over and done with. Okay. What happens when you avoid conflict? It's, it's, it's just like an infection. It just gets bigger and bigger, and it festers in one day, it's going to pop. And the problem is when you're avoiding the conflict, and you're having, and I know because I've, I've

did this with my first wife. There were so many things that I wanted to say to her, but I didn't want to do it because I just thought it would just make things worse. Well, what was actually worse was that I was having all these conversations in my head. And so it gets to a point where you're not pissed off at her. You're pissed off at the crazy stories that you've made up in your head, which have gotten exponentially bigger than what the actual truth really is.

And that's the problem. If you just had the conflict. And I told her, " You know, maybe, you know, I never did this. My father did it. And I swore I'd never be like him. But, you know, I said, you know, maybe, maybe I should have thrown some plates on the floor. Maybe I should have done some of that, but I didn't. And here we are. But the stories that we had were so big.

That, at the time, there was just no way I could get past them.

And I think that, you know, it is exhausting when, you know, it sounds like your ex-wife was passive-aggressive, and it sounds like, you know, it's a level of internal exhaustion, like when you begin to make up those stories in your head, because you begin to prioritize them. Like, how important is this to me? Like, I know that the response will be X, you know, and is this...

problem, an actual problem, or is it something that's just kind of bothering me? And should I bring it up, knowing the discomfort I'm going to feel for a long time because of it? So I think it's almost like you pick and you choose your battles. So the bigger ones, you decide that the discomfort is worth the energy to put yourself out there to have the conversation.

versus, like you said, all of the ruminating stories. I could talk about this, and I could talk about that, and I could talk about this, right? And you have all these things where you're like, my God, that's so exhausting. Like, I can't imagine having all those conversations because some of them aren't really a big deal. They're just kind of little deals and little things that are kind of bugging me. I can't control them anyway. I can only control myself. So is it worth getting into that conversation in that moment? And I struggle with that. And I struggle with that, you know, even

Right.

with my kids? Do I continue to nag them about keeping their rooms clean? Or do I just shut the door and be like, their space, their problem? Is it something that I am... Do I want to feel that discomfort of the tension about something that, God, I know I can't freaking control every moment of how they pick up their room. I know I can't control that. And is it gonna... Am I gonna let that lack of control affect me?

So I don't know, how do you feel about that? Is that the inner dialogue you were having, like picking and choosing in the rumination, like, do I talk about this? Do I talk about that? Like, my gosh, like I just, it's exhausting.

Well, for me, it got so bad that I just didn't bring up anything. Now, we have been married for 28 years. And the thing is, I had started the business, she had started hers, which are totally, completely different. I was gone all the time, she was gone all the time. And like I tell people, if you're not with somebody, you can get along with anyone. You can get along with anyone if you don't see them.

anything.

But you know, there were just, and you know, another thing, because it's not all her fault, it really isn't. It's never just one person's fault. That's never true. But there was something, and to this day, I don't know what it was, but there was some rift that she had with her mom, and she and her mom had never really gotten along that well anyway. And she went no contact.

with her mom, probably 30 years ago. And when she would speak of her mom, it's just kind of, well, I don't care if she's living or dead. I don't care. You know, she's dead to me, that sort of thing. And she really should have gone and sought some help for that. She never did. To my knowledge, she still never has. But in my mind,

If you walk around having that conversation in your head about your mother and openly telling people that she's dead to me, she's a piece of shit or whatever, that hatred and resentment are going to leech into every aspect of your life. And it certainly did with her life with our kids and me. It definitely did.

Yeah. I I talk about something at Better Than Bitter called being bigger than yourself and understanding the ripple effect and understanding how, if you look through what we call like a child-centered method, a child-centered lens, what would it feel like to be on the other side of that and your actions and your behaviors and pushing that through this kind of magnifying lens that's bigger than yourself? And a lot of people can't take that.

Yes.

Yeah.

perspective in their life, especially narcissists, Now it does come back to you, like you only have control over you, but understanding that you have a lot more ripple effect on so many other places in your life, whether it be your kids, your family, your coworkers, your friends, you know, the world in general, like, you know, there's influence out there.

And you are that center of influence, yet not allowing yourself to have perspective. That's really what I consider narcissism, right? My mother was definitely some level of a narcissist. And I think that way because my mom had some affairs post-divorce, but she was in a relationship

a serious one, and she was still dating other guys on the side. She did. But the crazy thing was that she let me in on those escapades as a teenager. She wanted me to lie for her so she wouldn't... I mean, was just this... And honestly, she really had no understanding that her behaviors...

Mom got around, huh?

affected anybody else. Like her, like it literally was like, she was the center of her own universe, and she only heard what she wanted to hear. She was the classic, I only hear what I want to hear. And when she got sick, and she had cancer, and we'd go sit with the doctors, she only heard what she wanted to hear, which was usually the doom and gloom. She didn't want to hear the 20 positive things that were about to happen. She only heard what she wanted to hear.

From a very young age, I recognized that her behavior was not normal.

You know, like, who does that? I just remember being a teenager, feeling like, " What is my mother doing? She's like telling me to lie for her so she can leave the house and go to New York City and go on a date with another guy while she's living with another one. Like, what is wrong with my mother? Everyone loved her. She lit up a room. Everybody who met her was touched in different ways.

But now that I know what I know, I'm like, my God, my mother, I think she was a grandiose narcissist, you know?

We are where we came from and what we see, what we experience and those narcissistic behaviors, like they are learned. I don't know. Do you think they're innate? Do people pop out of the womb like this?

Yeah.

recently did a video. It's probably one of the most hate-rich videos I think I've ever gotten. The hate I got on this was unbelievable. And what I talked about, if you want to know where a narcissist comes from, look at their mom.

No.

Look at their mom, because a kid is either going to be a golden child or a scapegoat. The golden child can do no wrong and gets all his validation from the narcissist. And then, he goes out, and you know, he expects the world to give him everything that his mom gave him. And that's not happening. Or you got the scapegoat, and the scapegoat is the one who could do nothing right. Got blamed.

for everything. And then if you have a family that has both, then those roles were assigned by the narcissist. Usually, there's not a good relationship between those two, and they're pissed off at each other, which the person they should be pissed off with is the one who's sitting at the head of the table.

If the mom is not a narcissist, but if she stays silent and does nothing to avoid any backlash from the father and doesn't even privately say anything to the kid, she's a hundred percent complicit. In my opinion, a hundred percent complicit. Sadly, that happens more times than anyone wants to admit.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is a hard... Now, I'm an only child, so I don't know if I'm both golden and a scapegoat, if I had a mother who was a narcissist, but I was just a neutral party sitting there, and I wasn't being chosen over anybody else. It's actually really interesting because there is fear in talking badly about your spouse to your kids, or not

yeah.

complying,

not complying with whatever discipline they're trying to. It's the backlash that you're going to feel if there's word that, well, you're not being supportive. The kids this, this, and this, and you completely didn't get on the same page as me. There's all of that back dialogue. So it is a very slippery slope

When you're separated or divorced, especially when you're separating and going through the divorce, a lot of them will do anything and everything that they can to weaponize your kids against you. And the advice that I give every single person who tells me this is always the same. Always take the high road. Always take the high road. Do not shit-talk your ex ever.

to your children, don't shit-talk your ex anywhere because it does two things. Number one, you're having that shit-talking internal dialogue with yourself. It just pisses you off even more. You're living in the past, and you can't do anything to change it. And then the other thing, it actually shows your kids how small you are. And if you always take the high road,

And the X is doing whatever shit show it is that they're doing. Sooner or later, kids aren't stupid. Sooner or later, they're going to figure it out. They're going to see it. And they're going to see who kept them from getting in the war versus who forced them to become a soldier.

I completely agree. I have been with friends who are divorced, and we'd be sitting at the table, and their ex is supposed to come and pick up the kids. They don't show up, they're late. And in front of the children, the friend would say something like, " My God, it is your dad's responsibility to come and get you. It is not my responsibility to drop you off. What is wrong with him?

And, absolutely. And like, it makes my skin crawl. I was like, my gosh, you have just inserted your child in between the agreement that you and your ex have. You do not let me let them hear that. All you need to be is like, Hey, you know what, Jack, I'm going to go drop you off at dad's. You know, I know you're over there tonight. And then on a side note, you pick up the phone call and be like,

It makes a kid feel like an obligation. Yeah.

Just wanted to remind you that the way that we're going from one household to the other is that the one who has the child isn't the one who's going to drop the child off. It's the one who's coming to get the child to bring them back to the house. That is what we've arranged. That's it. That's the fact. That's the brief. That's the neutral. That is the fact. There is no other way of saying it, but-

And the other thing, and I've had like three guests on my podcast say it, is as soon as you start throwing your ex under the bus and you start talking badly about them, subconsciously, your kids recognize they're 50 % you and 50 % your ex. And when you start saying that the other person is a bad person, then that kid subconsciously is thinking to themselves,

Yes.

I must be 50 % bad. I'm 50 % of that person that my mom keeps telling me is a bad person. And it's not something that they're doing consciously. It's just subconsciously. And I think I've had three guests now say that.

Well, it's true. Mean, the other, if I can add further to that, you can talk and preach to your kids all you want to. They're not going to listen to you that much, but they are paying 100 % attention to everything that you actually do. ⁓ If there are a couple of alcoholics raising a kid, they're raising a third alcoholic.

Mm-hmm.

If a couple is smoking crack, that kid's going to smoke crack one day. It's almost inevitable, but it's all about living, you know, having a standard and living by it and sticking by it. And are they going to, are the kids going to do that right away? Probably not because kids have to make their own mistakes. They have to, to live their own life, but sooner or later they're going to see it, and they're going to recognize, wow, mom was right. Mom.

Mom really is a bigger person because they did this. That's why you really want to avoid any kind of trash talking, or, as you said, do something that shows them as an obligation. You know, my, you know, the same thing as my wife is babysitting a dog at the house today. I've got to take a trip on Friday, and I called her, and I said, well,

How long have you had the dog? Well, I've got the dog until three o'clock on Friday, so I can't go. It's just, you're treating your kid like a dog.

Yeah. Now, I think it is so important. It's actually one of the most important things as it relates to keeping your kids safe and secure. It's safe and secure emotionally. And by making sure that you are putting them first, again, looking through that child-centered lens, making sure that your behaviors, what it would feel like to be on the other end of whatever you say or whatever you do, is so important. And yeah, we are all models. We are all models.

for how we want our children to be in the future. And, you know, I look at my model, my parents had a really amicable divorce, even though my mother had all these crazinesses. My kids and my parents really had an amazing co-parenting relationship. And what I learned later on from my stepmom is that in the background, it wasn't as good as I thought it was, but they came forward, and what I saw was only good. Like, I really never saw them in a bad communication spot.

or fighting over anything. They never talked badly about each other. And so when I was faced with divorce, that was the only model that I knew. That was the only model that I knew, that everybody is one big happy family, and that is just a family re-envisioned. And I know we need to wrap up because we could talk about narcissistic behaviors forever. We could talk about, you know, parenting forever, but I definitely want to just kind of leave, you know, some notes for everybody.

Jeff has the most amazing Instagram channel, the real Jeff Wright. If you are interested in continuing the conversation around narcissism, and he is more specifically talking about grandiose narcissism, he has so much on there if you're dealing with abusive relationships, that is something that he can be an incredible resource.

on. He not only speaks about all these things, but Jeff also happens to be an incredibly successful entrepreneur. He's got a book, Blame to Fame. So I want to make sure that everybody knows who Jeff really is. He's an incredible guy, and everybody really should tap into his knowledge.

So Jeff, do you want to have any kind of parting words for everybody who's listening today? I know this podcast is going to be very highly listened to because anytime I put anything out there on narcissism, it blows up.

Well, if you're living with a narcissist, just remember to keep your emotions in check. The less reactive that you are to a narcissist, the worse it's going to be for them and the less they're going to affect you. And if you mix that, unfortunately, if you're mixing your narcissistic spouse with alcohol, that makes it even worse. So, you know,

Be smart. Have another book that I did called Flinch No More. They can, you can go to flinch no more.com and get that. And it is a whole guidebook on dealing with, with, with addicts and narcissists on how you can separate from them mentally. And not only that, to get away from living the stories that they tell you, because these narcissists are going to give you labels.

They may say you're not smart enough, you're not good enough, no one else will love you. That's all bullshit. Do not live your life based on the opinion of a narcissist or an alcoholic. Consider the source of where it's coming from because all the labels that they're throwing on you are just not true.

I'm going to totally not even say anything else. Thank you all for listening in to the Better Than Bitter podcast. I thank Jeff again for being our guests. If you want to listen to more, please subscribe. The more subscribers we have, the more reach we get. We also have a YouTube channel you can check out if you want to see the video versions of any of these podcasts, and that is the Better Than Bitter podcast studio. Again, Jeff.

Thank you again. All right.

Thank you for having me. Really enjoyed

it.

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