Do you want to promote a diverse and inclusive workplace environment?

In the latest episode of the Happier at Work podcast, I had a thought-provoking discussion with Robert Baker, a passionate advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace.

In this episode, we explore the need for a new approach to the billable hour system and the crucial role of change management and leadership skills development in driving organisational transformation.

The conversation delves into the inspiring example of Enjin, a global energy company that has successfully implemented changes to achieve gender balance in leadership and enhance organisational productivity.

Robert also shares his insights on happiness at work, highlighting the importance of autonomy, meaningful work, and the support he receives from his partner, Pamela. The discussion extends to evolving attitudes towards work-life balance, the value of recognition in the workplace, and the impact of diverse leadership perspectives.

Additionally, Robert discusses his transition from corporate roles to founding his own business focused on diversity, equity, and inclusion, and the importance of engaging male leaders in fostering a culture of vulnerability and empathy.

The episode touches on the challenges and opportunities surrounding gender equality, the societal socialisation of men and women from a young age, and the importance of recognising and addressing these influences across diverse cultures and backgrounds.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• The crucial role of change management and leadership skills development in driving organisational transformation.
• Evolving attitudes towards work-life balance, the value of recognition in the workplace, and the impact of diverse leadership perspectives.
• The importance of engaging male leaders in fostering a culture of vulnerability and empathy.
• The challenges and opportunities surrounding gender equality.
• The importance of recognising and addressing gender influences across diverse cultures and backgrounds.

Connect with Robert

LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/robert-baker-potentia-talent-consulting

Twitter: @robertbkr

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

Website: https://happieratwork.ie 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aoifemobrien/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happieratwork.ie/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/happieratwork.ie

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HappierAtWorkHQ

Twitter: https://twitter.com/HappierAtWorkHQ 

Previous Episodes:

https://happieratwork.ie/200-reskilling-diversity-and-building-a-happier-workplace-with-bhushan-sethi/

https://happieratwork.ie/198-empowering-women-at-work-with-deirdre-mcginn/

https://happieratwork.ie/174-the-role-of-emotions-in-workplace-dynamics-with-dr-lola-gershfeld/

https://happieratwork.ie/167-embracing-diversity-and-inclusion-at-work-with-donna-oconnor/

Robert, you're so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I'm thrilled to have you as my guest today. Do you want to introduce yourself to listeners a little bit about your background and how you got into doing what you're doing today?

Yeah. Thanks, Aoife. It's lovely to be here with you, and sharing this podcast with your listeners. So, I worked for 40 years in the corporate consulting world, which was a fantastic training, for everything that's gonna come after. But in 2020, I decided to leave the corporate world and set up my own business. And in the corporate world, I've done quite a lot of work around diversity, equity inclusion. So it was kind of a natural thing to go into that field when I started my own business. The only problem was I was starting at just the time the pandemic was hitting.

So it was a bit of

a slump. 2020, not an ideal time.

Bit of a slow start. Right? Yeah. But then it's amazing the power of one's network. You know, like, I started to get a lot of people, you know, connecting with me and and saying, hey. Look. We need some help with this, and we need some help with that. And, you know, before long, you know, I've become, you know, really busy now in this in the area that I'm specializing in, which is really helping companies become more diverse and inclusive, build those cultures, build the leadership practices that support that, and particularly around getting male leaders engaged in this stuff because I think it's really important. I mean, they're 80% of leaders globally.

They're they're over 60% of line managers. So really getting them engaged in driving improvements, and being a great place to work for women is a is a kind of key thing. So that's kind of how I got into this, I suppose. But I've always been interested in gender equality. I was one of the first men on the board of women's network, the only man on the board for a long while, and then became a co president of Woman's Network. So, but for me, what what gender equality was about was the other side of it, not necessarily advancing women, which I did wanna do, but also actually liberating us men from all the stereotypes that we face, you know, the alpha male thing about, you know, be strong, be tough, be competitive, be demanding, don't cry, all of those things, you know, don't be emotional, don't show your emotion, don't show empathy, don't show vulnerability. That that's a man box, basically, which I wanted to break out And so for me, doing this work in gender equality has been a brilliant way to break out of that man box. So I've been able to be true to myself in a sense, because I realized I wasn't, you know, like many other men in that sense, you know.

And, it's enabled me to really learn how to become a better leader, you know, and a and a better colleague, and and so that's kind of really a big part of what's driven me to get where I am today.

Brilliant. Love that. Love I love that as a as an introduction. I think maybe we'll come back to the stereotypes associated with men in a second. But before we started recording, you mentioned about a recent poll from Ipsos. Do you wanna share a little bit about that, the results from that?

Yes. Thank you. And, I mean, it it it really was quite alarming, I think, for many of us that that that follow, the various sort of surveys and polls around, attitudes of, well, particularly men and women, over time. This particular poll was showing the resistance that men are now giving to, the idea that gender equality, you know, is a good thing, and it's still got further to go. What it showed was over 50% of men actually globally think gender equality has now gone too far. And this is at a time when we all know that there still aren't enough women in leadership. There still aren't enough women in organizations. They're not getting to the top quickly enough.

You know, companies are failing to meet their targets on gender equality. So in 5 years' time, by 2,030, a lot of companies are not gonna make it if they're carrying on at the current rate. And if they're doing that in an environment where the men in the opposition who are so powerful are pushing back, we've really got a problem. So this poll was a real wake up call

to all

of us to basically say, listen. We've got to do more work on convincing men that progress for women does not mean backward steps for men. It's not a zero sum game. It's good for it's good for all of us, basically. It's good for organizations. It's good for all genders. But that message still seems to be we have we're having trouble getting that message across, it seems. Yeah.

And we gotta do a lot more work on that together.

And why do you think that is? Like, do men feel threatened? And and I suppose I would love to come back to this point now about liberating men from these stereotypes types that they have associated with the men away from these typical stereotypes that they have associated with, you know, always being strong and you're not allowed to show any emotion at work and all of these kinds of things that are associated. At the same time, creating that really positive environment where women can thrive, where for a long time that hasn't necessarily been the case. So I suppose, first of all, why do you think there is this pushback? And and me, you know, my background is in data and analytics. So I'm kind of thinking, how do you break that down? And is it at different levels? Is it is it slightly different or different types of industries? Is it slightly different? I don't know. Do you have the answers to that? But maybe we can speculate on on why that might be.

Yeah. And, obviously, like, in all these things, we've gotta be a bit careful about generalizations because there's always exceptions, you know, and and different sectors, you said, are different. You know, and men are different too. And as a women, you know, like, we come across all intersections, we come across all cultures and backgrounds, you know. So there's a there's a real danger in being too, you know, kind of, glib and treating men as a homogeneous group and women as a homogeneous group, etcetera. But I think I think what we do know is that a lot of the issues are to do with how we're socialized. Right? Yeah. So men tend to be socialized to be, you know, the strong tough, characters that don't, you know, that don't show emotions.

And it's very interesting. I've worked across a number of different cultures. I ran last year, for example, an engaging men workshop or series of workshops in Italy and one of the things that came out was Italian men very strongly socialized to be the breadwinner. So for example, if they're in a relationship with another person who's got an equally important job, you know, how do they manage that? And if, God forbid, they ever lost their job, you know, does that mean they lose their identity and, you know, as men, for example? So I think what we've got to recognize is that this starts really right from childbirth really. You know, how we socialize boys, how we socialize girls. And and then I think what what we need to recognize is the world of work over time has been basically built by men for men. You know, you know, the the privilege that we have as men going into the workplace is huge. We don't even see that privilege.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, we don't have to experience any of the things that women experience. And, you know, one of the things I do in the work that I do is I spend a lot of time talking to women about, well, what is your experience in the workplace? And when we run those surveys, for example, of women's experience and we, we show up the things that women talk about, for example, like lack of development opportunities, lack of flexibility and policies, being mansplained, you know, like these man interruptions and microaggressions, this fact that the culture tends to be always on and, you know, it's all the hours you put in and, you know, all the dedication you give to the company that really is what helps drive your advancement. You know, so there's a whole range of things that that women experience in the workplace that men don't experience or men come at it differently. And I think what's really interesting now is the younger generations of men are coming into the workforce. I mean, I'm coaching some of these younger leaders, and they actually want a different world too. They they want a world where they can show up for their kids, where they can, you know, they often have a partner is working in just as important a career as they've got. And and so I think, you know, we are starting to see a need and a demand from younger generations of men coming into the workforce for a different deal to the one that people of my generation, were were looking for. And I think companies have still got to process that.

I think we still got too many people at the top of companies that still believe in the old model of, you know, give everything to the company at all costs. And I think that's why women are leaving organizations because they don't want that model. And I think what we're seeing now is a group of younger men coming through who don't want that model either. Yeah. So it's a really interesting question of where are the leaders of the future gonna come from if we're still expecting leaders to work all the hours that God gave, have no family life

Yes.

Travel everywhere, you know, that kind of model. Yeah. So so I think I think sort of these are really some of the factors that are are coming in here. And and so how do we get a how do we get to a place where men end up pushing back? It's because we've got a situation now where men are in the majority, and the culture in many workplaces is based around that majority culture. Okay. You might call it a dominant culture, and like a lot of people, we don't like change. When we, you know, we manage to accumulate a nice position because women have been shut sidelined in various different ways. For example, after childbirth or or just because they don't have the same kind of profile that men have in terms of demanding, you know, salary rises, advancement, etcetera.

You can see the reasons why women kinda fall behind in the workplace, through no fault of their own, but more because of the system. And and so what we realized is the system that we've had in the place has benefited men, which is why we've got 80% of leaders as men, for example, and 60% of line managers. Now what we're talking about is leveling the playing field. Companies want to have a more equal balance of genders in leadership. So one of the things I'm talking to men about is, listen, you still have a role in leadership in the future even if you're starting to say, oh my god, all these targets for women mean no more promotions for men. That isn't true. Companies still want a big chunk of their leaders in the future to be men. It's just these have to be men that know how to do the diversity and inclusion part, know how to partner and work alongside women.

Yeah. And if you can learn those skills, which are often emotionally intelligence based, and they're learnable, then you can be that kind of leader of the future. So part of the work that I do is basically equipping leaders today for the leadership that they need to have in the future, around this more inclusive, more, allyship, more basically emotional intelligence based approach to leadership. And that, I think, is the environment we're gonna look for in the future. All the surveys of what people at work want, They want leaders that are like that, basically, and the pandemic obviously reinforced that. So here's the here's the world we're going into, but we're still not well set up to do that. So the men are pushing back because this this change happened. And we see companies saying, listen, we now need targets.

Yeah. This isn't gonna change unless we bring in targets. They're pushing back on those targets. So then companies are saying, hey, we've gotta do something because we've gotta bring these men on board. And, of course, you know, this isn't a man bashing thing. This is actually saying, let's understand what's on men's minds, and let's have a discussion around what's on their minds. But let's educate

them

about the the situation that we've got now and the way that the world is changing and needs to change and help break down their fears about it. Because, actually, there's something good in this for them. And that's the message that I bring. It's a message of hope to say there's something good in this for you guys to get with the gender equality, diversity, and inclusion, thrust that we're having these days. And, in a survey that I did 2 years ago with Daniele Fyndarka at Token Man Consulting, we surveyed a 100 male leaders about the benefits that they got from being involved in diversity and inclusion and allyship work. And 97% of those 100 male leaders said that they felt they were now better leaders and better human beings as a result of doing that work. So sorry. It's a very long answer to your question, but hopefully it goes.

Apprehensive. It's just But yeah.

No. The challenges we're facing.

Exactly. One of the things that you've mentioned a couple of times now is this idea of targets, and I'd love to get your views on that. Like, to me, targets quotas. Where have you seen it done? Does it actually work? Do we need to have targets in place in order to meet them, or will things naturally evolve without having those targets? Like, any thoughts around having those definite targets in place and and the benefits of that?

Oh, absolutely. Yes. So firstly, I should declare, I'm on the board of European women on boards. Right? And European women on boards supports the, the EU, regulations around having, at least 40% of the gender on boards, basically. So Okay. We're pushing for for that. What we see is individual countries setting up quotas. I mean, Norway did that some time ago.

France has been very sort of in the forefront of this too. I think quotas are good because basically they set the tone for the fact that we want to see more women in board and leadership positions. And often, change could be quite slow in some order in some countries if you don't have those kind of quotas. Now the UK has been a little bit of an exception because we've achieved some progress without actually having, you know, legal quotas as it were. We've done it by, you know, persuade, and, you know, comply or explain something. So what we we we see is there is some progress in the UK, but in many countries, the progress is still way too slow. So the quotas, at a country level, really focus their mind on, you wanna get more women into boards and into leadership positions. For individual companies, it's about targets, about having a business target

Okay.

To say, if we want to get more women into leadership, and a lot of the companies I'm talking to all want to achieve that because they're way behind where they wanna be right now. We have to set a target for it just like we set a target for any other business initiative that we're doing. Okay? We're gonna set a target, and then we're gonna ask our leaders and managers to help implement that target. And in some companies, they're even tying now performance goals and bonuses to the achievement of that target. Right? So so so leaders will lose bonus if they don't achieve, for example, the recruitment targets for women in the organization. So, I think they're absolutely necessary, and and they're a part of doing good business. Targets, you know, you will, help your organization succeed if you've got those targets. But, of course, you then need to have a process for achieving that target.

You need to be realistic about what it's gonna take to achieve that target. I personally think a lot of companies have set a target and then hoped, basically. And as we know, hope is not

a target. Is hope.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, and and and so basically, we found this. They haven't made progress, You know? And and and they're fighting this headwind now of the resistance from men, and yet they're still trying to achieve a target for women in leadership. So it's a real challenge now coming through. I think in the next couple of years, we're gonna see this come to a head. Some companies are gonna have to either pull back their targets because they're not achieving them, or they're gonna have to come at a very good explanation as to why they're not making those happen.

Yeah. Good news is if you're determined about it, I work with a number of great companies that are making progress. And the way that they're making progress is they're spending a significant amount of money like any other change initiative in the company. They're making it very clear that it's targets for it. They're tying executive performance goals and bonuses to it, and and they're making it clear it's it's driven from the top. And if you do those kind of things, it's a big change. It's a big culture change. It's a big change in the way you do things, but actually, it's a change that's good for your business overall and, basically, you know, you just have to kind of, you know, be determined about it and and basically do what you say, rather, you know, and so so take actions that basically achieve all of this and be very determined about it and and very, you know, sure that you're gonna make sure that everyone's flowing through in the organization on it.

And then if you, you know, highlight successes, you say, hey, look, here's an area where it's really working well, that encourages other parts of the company to follow suit. You know? So there's a lot of good tools and tips and techniques for how companies can achieve this.

Yeah.

So, but I think the biggest reason why companies aren't achieving it today is because they're treating as a one off exercise. They're running a workshop and saying, oh, that will solve all the problems. Running a single workshop obviously won't. You need, actually, a proper change management program to change the culture towards more or one of gender balance and inclusion, and you need to change the leadership skill sets that you require, you need to change the mindsets, and you need the the leaders at the very top to support it. And so there are very significant things you need to do. But if you do those things and you take this seriously, you will make progress.

And maybe we can bring it back to, well, what are the benefits? Like, so so what? Why do we need more women in leadership positions?

Wow. Yeah. How long have you got? So I I think you know firstly, like, it's always been to me a great regret that the incredibly capable women that, for example, I was at university with, you know, surrounded by brilliant women. Right? They, at least half the students at my university were were brilliant women. Right? Who who then maybe didn't make as far as they could have got in the in the corporate world. And you realize that companies are missing out on that talent. So Yeah. So one of the biggest reasons for having more women in, the company and more women in leadership is they come at this very differently to, for example, men.

Right? Okay. They often have a different focus on risk. They have a different, focus on opportunities. They have a different leadership style. They have a different way of collaborating with others. All of the organizations that I know that are bringing women into leadership positions and really pushing them through are saying, wow, this is fantastic. Why didn't we not do this before? Yeah. Because we're actually improving the overall performance of the organization.

Mhmm. And companies like McKinsey have done these studies that show that, you know, gender balance is correlated with better performance. And, you know, I I and I'm very close to this, and I can see why. Because these women are brilliant, and they are really helping to, create more balance. You know, we see so many organizations where, you know, they are run by a group of, you know, let's be honest, white men who all think the same way, probably all went went to the same kind

of universities.

Yeah. And and so surprise, surprise. Sometimes they completely screw up because they're all just following each other, and there's no new ideas. So, this is about getting fresh talent and getting innovation, getting new ideas. And then, of course, you gotta look at the other areas. Their customers probably will be very happy to see more balance, at the top organizations. I mean, I'm working with a fashion company at the moment, which is very male dominated despite the fact that a lot of the customers are women. You know? Is that is that a good thing to have? You know? And and so there's a lot of other reasons around this, around corporate brand.

And then in some sectors now, as we talked about the difference in sectors, the regulators are getting involved. So, for example, in financial services, the regulators saying we must have more diverse cultures in organizations, and and the regulators in other sectors too. But I I think this key thing really is if if we want companies in the future to bring in these the best ideas to help, meet all the challenges that we're facing around sustainability, around, you know, equity, and around better economic growth and better performance, we need all the talent, not just a subset of talent which happens to be male. We need everybody. And so we need these brilliant women to be coming in and and doing their, you know, and doing their part to help organisations move forward. And of course, as you know, women is one element of a more diverse and inclusive environment. You also want to be thinking, okay, what other areas are there where we're underrepresented? You know? So often it might be people from ethnic different ethnic backgrounds. It might be people with disabilities.

It might be, you know, people, with gay sexual orientation or whatever. If we're not making the workplace available to them and if we're not making leadership available to them, we are really missing out big time on the fantastic skills that they bring. One of the most brilliant people I've ever worked with was a trans, woman, basically. And have we not had a trans woman in the organization, we would have lost out a fantastic amount of skill that that person was bringing. So that's why we need everybody. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why we need more women in leadership.

Brilliant. No. Really, I think a really great way to do a synopsis of all the reasons. Of course, I totally agree with you, but it's more to get it out on the table. Let's have a talk about these things. One of the things we kind of skirted around is earlier, but it's this idea of the amount of work that people have going on. So one of the challenges I see often with clients, with friends, is they're looking. These women are looking at their managers and they see just how much work their manager has going on.

And they think, I don't want that for myself. I want to have better balance. I don't want to take on that level of responsibility. Don't work the extra hours, do the travel, whatever it might be. Any thoughts on on, you know, is is that kind of tying in with this idea of culture change where we need to focus much more on the outcomes and less on the time invested. And going back to your earlier point that we we talk about, you know, oh, I'm here and I'm working all the hours. But, yeah, what do you have to show for it? What are the results that you're getting that the company is looking for? And more hours doesn't necessarily always mean better results as well and and that mindset shift. So any thoughts around solving that problem?

Wow. Yeah. I mean, what we've seen obviously in some countries, like in Sweden, for example, I think now there's much more focus on having that balance because what they found is you can work less hours and be more productive.

Yes. But, like,

a lot of us are showing up for lots of hours at work without actually necessarily being being productive. Mhmm. So just being in the office, God forbid, for many, many hours is not necessarily the way to achieve, success. I think we need to be bolder about how we define leadership roles, how we define roles at the top. I was chatting to someone the other day. He said, why aren't more leaders job sharing, for example? Can't we

do these

leadership roles, you know, with the job share so that we've actually got 2 people fulfilling the role? We'd actually have 2 minds, basically on the on it. And and surely, it wouldn't actually be better than 1. So I think we've just been very unimaginative about how roles at the top can be done, because because I think they can be broken down in ways that it would mean that people, that haven't normally wanted to aspire to those roles could actually then see themselves in one of those roles. So I think, you know, job sharing, and is is it a is a critical one. And I think we should look at more of that Or leaders as part time workers or or leaders that you know, it's really interesting. I think there's still this incredible, you know, what's the word, slight on people that work part time.

Yeah. I

mean, part time work is basically you're saying, look. I'm gonna take 80% of my hours for 80% of the salary or whatever it is, but I'm still gonna give you a 100%.

You know? Exactly.

Some organizations, they think that somehow, if you're working anything other than a 100% of the hours, you're somehow slacking and you're not doing your your bit. We've gotta completely change the mindset on that. Yeah. I think we've I think collectively, we've all been pretty unimaginative about that. Now what I'm seeing is if we wanna retain women in the in the workforce and we wanna retain these younger generations coming through, We have got to be more flexible. We've got to be more imaginative about a variety of different things. One is about, like, how jobs get done. Can they be shared, for example? Where can they be done? Can they be done flexibly? You know, can they be done remotely? Can they can we have a hybrid situation? Because that, you know, there's a big hoo at the moment about know, return to the office, I mean.

Yeah. Big push to go back to the office. But as a lot of women are saying, we don't want that. And a lot of younger people are saying, we don't want that either. So, we gotta think much more imaginatively now about how we offer work to people, to make it something that they really want you know, to make it an organization they really wanna work for, where they wanna really come and and give it their best. And, you know, companies are missing out 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars and pounds and euros at the moment by having workforces that are not fully engaged, are not fully motivated. And some of these things that we're talking about here could make a massive difference to employee motivate motivation and engagement, which would result in enhancements in productivity. So, why we're not having more of these discussions and why we're not changing things more, I don't quite understand, except that I still see a degree of rigidity.

You know? This is what we've always done, and we're trying to change in case it doesn't give us a better results. So so sometimes, I think, actually, people at the top, it's a bit too risk averse to really be but we're we're we're going into a world where being risk averse could potentially hold you back, because we're now in an era of, you know, AIS, of course, as we all know. That's changing the workplace dramatically. We're in an era of new generations coming into the workforce. They want different things. So the whole world of work is changing, and and some of the things that worked in the past are no longer going to to work. And I was chatting into a law firm, a person the other day, who was talking about the partnership structure there in the law firm. And in a to be a partner in a law firm, as far as I understand it, you've really got to put a lot of hours in.

Yeah. And a lot of people are saying they don't wanna do that anymore. Mhmm. So where the law firms are gonna get their partners for in the future, I'm not quite sure. They could end up with just a bunch of men who are prepared to put the hours in to get high salaries. But I think I think it's a real challenge. Some of these models now are really coming out of strain because they're that they they were fit for the past. Yeah.

But they're not necessarily fit for where we are now or for the future.

Yeah. Well, this the the specific example of law firms came up in my conversation about the 4 day week. And so I've had various different conversations about the 4 day week on the podcast, and I will put a link to the previous episodes in the show notes for people to listen to. But that was one of the things. So law firms, accountancy firms, which are based on billable hours, and so they bill in increments of 15 minutes or whatever it might be so that they they can, you know, that they can bill the client the maximum amount. And so that was one of the challenges that I had about, you know, and I've come from an agency background where it is. It's billable time, but it's kind of more in days rather than in 15 minute increments, basically. But, you know, their response to that was that, again, it's this shift in mindset towards outcomes.

And so you can reduce your working hours in the law firm if you focus on producing outcomes for clients. So it's not about the input, which is the amount of time that you spend on something, but this mindset shifts to what outcomes are we creating for our clients and how valuable are those outcomes to those clients, and therefore, how much can we charge them? And so they get charged on a project basis rather than by the number of hours that they deliver to a specific client, which I think is is interesting and definitely could apply to any sort of agency type of model or law firms, accountancy firms, anything that has billable hours as well. So I think that's really interesting.

Yeah. I think there's gonna be more thought given there. I know, for example, when I was working in the consulting world, which is also driven on hours, we had these discussions actually about well, if we have all the hours, we are actually still undercharging the client because we're giving them huge amount of value from all of the experience on top of that. I mean, obviously, the experience should be reflecting the chargeable rate. Yes. But you still find, actually, sometimes you're giving clients more value than actually, strictly speaking, you're charging for for the hours done. So, you know, I think that it has to be rethought, I think, this whole whole thing about, you know, what value you're providing. Yes.

What are clients prepared to pay for? And then work out how you deliver that.

Yeah.

And I think I think that that billable hour thing is a little bit of a, you know, it was great, as I said, for the last decades, but I think, you know, going forward, we probably need a different way of looking at

it. Definitely. Definitely. I'd love to come back to this idea. So maybe picking apart this idea of being risk averse and the notion that as an organization, how do we make those changes? You mentioned about investing in women, and you need to I was gonna say throw money at the problem, but that's quite a that's quite a flippant comment. But, I mean, you really need to invest properly. And it's not a one off workshop, as you mentioned. It's it's properly running a change management program, looking at the leadership skills that exist.

If companies are averse to making those kinds of changes, what can we do to encourage them? So if there's someone listening today who's maybe in a senior leadership position and they want to influence up the chain to make these kinds of changes in their own organizations, what kind of advice do you have for them?

Well, I would say take a look at the people that are succeeding. Take a look at the companies that are succeeding and and see what they're doing and see how that could apply to you. So I'm very fortunate to work with quite a sort of big range of global companies. 1 of the companies I'm working with at the moment is a French global energy company called Energy. And and they are facing the fact that the world of energy is changing. Obviously, we're moving to clean energy, from fossil fuels, etcetera. What they've realized is they need a kind of different skill set for the future. They need a different way of beating the organization.

It's very interesting, actually. They have a female CEO as well, Catherine McGregor, who's, you know, obviously very good at this. So, what she's what the organization has said basically is, you know, we need to rethink, how we go forward, that it's not gonna be a replica of how we went in the past. We know we we we need to do something different. And what they realized they needed to do was get more women into leadership, obviously, because they were behind on that kind of, target or or they set a target, and they then needed to to move from where they were to get to that target. And and so they've been very forward in, bringing women into their leadership programs to train up the women that they need for the future. And they've been, you know, really supporting those women brilliantly. And a lot of women now say that it's a great company to work for because they've got all these opportunities.

Yeah. But the really smart thing that they did was also to invest in the men so that the men realized, actually, there's something in it for them as well. So what Enjin is doing, it's investing in its men leaders to help them become the leaders of the future, where they, you know, lead in a gender balanced environment, where they lead in a new world where social and emotional skills are much more important. And so, actually, one of the best things that they're doing for their women in the organization is investing in their men so that they reduce that pushback so the men really understand why these changes are happening and very important what their role can be in it

Yeah.

In the future. And then what they're doing also is they're bringing their men and their women, together to talk about how they genuinely create a partnership going forward. So we get rid of the us and the them, and it becomes a we. And I think, you know, that's the secret for me. The secret source of success is to bring people across genders together

Yeah.

To understand what each other are experiencing. Okay? So we need to listen to each other and what our challenges are, But then we need to resolve to work on those together and support each other to build a much, you know, healthier and more productive organization. And so I would say if you look at a company like India and see what it's doing, and they just produce their results, by the way, and it's working because they're now getting more women into leadership, etcetera. So that's great. And this is all available on their, you know, website. You can see what they're doing. You know, let's look at companies like that if are succeeding and saying, okay. Could we apply some of these things that they're doing to what we're doing in our organization? But, you know, what it will mean, it'll mean a culture shift.

It'll mean a mindset shift. It'll mean a significant multiyear program with a significant investment. And I think what I'm saying to all the companies that I talk to is you need to be prepared to do that if you really want to see the change that's going to help you get into a better place.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not a let's bring let's bring somebody in for a workshop for an hour and then Yeah. Then we're gonna hit our targets.

Exactly. Let's bring in, a great

purple and all purple and all sorts of stuff. Robert, I know we said we would talk about happiness at work in general, and you have some really interesting insights to share in relation to that. So I'd love to hear some of your insights around happiness at work in general and what that means to you.

Yeah. Well, I'm very fortunate in, you know, for me, a great situation where, a, obviously, I'm very happy at work. Hopefully, that comes across in the way that I talk about it and the things that I'm doing. But but, you know, when I look at it, of course, I'm I'm at I'm actually in an advantageous position because, I've got, a real combination of things that that that contribute to this. So, I mean, firstly, autonomy. Right? I'm running my own business. So I've got a huge amount of control over the projects I take on, the clients I work with, the people I work alongside. I mean, yes, of course, I've gotta keep my clients happy.

So there's obviously a customer at the end of it who I've gotta keep happy. But as long as I do that, I've got a huge amount of control over what I do. And and that's a big difference to how it was in the corporate world. Nothing wrong with the corporate world. I love the corporate world. I was there for 40 years. But in the corporate world, you have less autonomy because obviously, they're, you know You

don't get to choose your clients. You just kind of like, here, you're working on Well this client.

And you're working within corporate guidelines various different types, you know. Yeah. So those can drive you nuts sometimes. But but they're there for good reasons. It's it's a big organization. In a smaller firm like I'm running, you know, there there's a lot more autonomy. It's great. The second thing, obviously, is meaningful work.

I I mean, I really have got work that, is meaningful to me, and it also aligns with my values. So in other words, I'm a strong believer and an advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion. The work that I'm doing is all around that, strongly aligned with that. And like I said, I'm advising companies on how to build cultures of inclusion, how to build leadership practices that support inclusion. I'm advising companies on engaging men as allies for inclusion. So, you know, I'm getting to do work that, for me, is very meaningful. And, of course, I'm seeing an impact as well. You know, it's one of the things we sort of talked about was if we can see that an impact of what we're doing, then I think it's great.

And, you know, one of the men that I'm coaching, for example, at the moment, has actively sponsored a woman his team, and she's now got a promotion and exciting new role as a result of that. You know? And that's like it showing up in practice. You know? So this guy came to our workshops, did the coaching, has now got a much better awareness of the need to sponsor women in the workplace, because women typically have been over mentored and undersponsored. Right? So he's doing something Okay. To sponsor this woman. She's he's taking a risk on her career, basically, and her, and and and so that's really great to see that. So there's that sort of impact, from from that. And and then, of course, there's the impact from the other stuff that I do, like being a trustee of UN Women UK or being on the board of European Women on Boards.

You know, in those roles, I'm very, very lucky because I get a chance to influence things that really matter to me. So, you know, so so that's important too. And then I think, obviously, for me, building relationships with people is critical. So working alongside people that I enjoy working with, who I learn from, and okay. So I'm not in a company doing that, but what I've done is I've built up a a selection of collaborators who are really brilliant people who I enjoy working with. So I'm working with the gender equality, outfit in Brussels called Jump. Brilliant. I'm learning a lot working with them in the UK.

I'm working with a lovely lady called Joy Burnford for Compass Equality. She brings me in as an allyship specialist, but we spark off each other in terms of, you know, ideas. And and so that that's great. And then when you add to that, you know, some some of the other things that I'm able to really grow personally and professionally from the work that I'm doing. I'm I'm working on demanding projects, which, you know, caused me to scratch my head a lot of the time. But, actually, by collaborating with others, you know, we've come up with brilliant solutions. So I've just announced, for example, a new program for allyship called as men as allies partnering for inclusion with with a lovely lady called Hera Ali. And we're coming at this from a cross cultural and intersectional point of view.

So really helping leaders be more, capable of working across cultures and cross intersections, as they become allies. With another one of my clients, we're creating workshops on inclusion and unconscious bias, which, we're doing it in conjunction with their employee resource groups. So we're cocreating this whole program. It's so exciting to be doing something, like, so different like that.

Mhmm.

And, of course, across Europe. I mean, I'm working with companies in a variety of different European countries, a little bit in the US too. So that kind of global dimension, I think, is is something that really brings richness to the work that I do. And and, you know, I said to someone the other day, I love travel too. Someone said to me, don't you find it stressful that I was in, like, Berlin, then I was in Rotterdam, and then I was in Brussels, and then I was in Amsterdam? I'm still a kid. Right? I like getting to Heathrow. I like getting on the plate. I like getting actually

increasingly Yeah.

On Eurostar these days. I love getting on Eurostar, you know, and then getting my little laptop out and doing my work on the train. But I still love that whole thing about travel. And then I think the other thing for me is I'm really lucky because I've got this curious mindset where I'm always trying to find, okay, other new ways of doing work. You know, like, for example, when I'm doing presentations, I'm now engaging people more with things like Mentimeter, for example, which is a great way of engaging people. And a lot of the work that I'm doing, I'm now using ChatGPT. So, you know, like, that is is a really great way of, you know, getting some initial start up for 10 ideas about things, you know.

Mhmm.

So I I think the other thing, it allows me to give back. And I think this is really critical to me that, you know, I do earn, you know, good money from what I do in WorkWise, but that also enables me to give back. So I did quite a bit pro bono stuff, whether it's be on the board of various women's networks. But I also support women's cause if I've sponsored a book launch for a woman professor last year and a networking, lunch for a group of black rising professional women. I can do that because I'm earning the money in my business to be able to do that. And I think

it's

only right that I should do that because I'm keeping you

important, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Totally. Yeah. And then, you know, like, I'm very lucky to be able to have that work life balance a little bit, although sometimes I worry about that. I'm supposed to be working 4 days a week. But the

It's hard, I think, when you love what you do. Yeah. When it's so enjoyable, and there's always going to be more to be done. This is the thing. I I'm realizing it more and more running my own business that your work will never be finished. And I think in corporate, we see the end of a project and we think, well, that's not finished. But maybe we neglect to think, well, there's always gonna be more to do. There's there will always be more work waiting for you to pick up.

So it's it's knowing, I think, when to when to say no, when to take those breaks so that you do feel recharged and refreshed, unable to do the work and give it your all.

Well, 2024 is meant to be the year for me where I put more self care, first as it were, because, like, during the pandemic, I had a home office. And then as soon as the pandemic was over, my wife kicked me out the house, said, right. You gotta find your own office. So I'm now working in my own office, hot desking as it were. But it's great. I have a 15 minute walk from home to the office.

Oh, lovely.

So it's brilliant. I've got and I can grab a coffee on the way, and I can Yeah. Drink my coffee while I'm booting up my computer. And, you know, I've got this nice sort of routine, when I'm doing that. But what I still find is that office at home is dangerous because I come home in the evening and then somehow go upstairs to where the office is and Yeah. Start working again.

You know?

And then I'm putting too much time in. And as he said, partly that's because I'm enjoying it so much and and and clients are demanding it. But also, I think it's, it's a it's a it's a worry. I've gotta make sure I keep that balanced out because there's things I haven't done that I wanna do. I play more guitar, do more hiking, you know, go to more art galleries, all those things. And I've gotta realize, actually, you know, there's a cost to what I do, which is I'm not doing some of these other things that I really could enjoy or

enjoy. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Is there anything else that you think you'd like to get across that we haven't necessarily covered already?

Yeah. I think one of the other things really is about support at home. I mean, really, I'm so lucky because, you know, my wife and I came up to a kind of conclusion about how we're gonna do things. I mean, she's a yoga teacher. She's got a very different kind of work profile to me. And and so we decided that that that she'd be very happy to provide, you know, support while I'm kind of putting so many hours into this as it were. I mean, I still have my chores at home to do. I still gotta do my bit of of of that.

But but I think I think, you know, it will be very remiss of me to not reflect that. And I think, you know, for all of us, we've gotta work out what's that right balance between, you know, what we give at work and what what we give at home.

Yeah. You

know? And and so that's been important to navigate that in the right way with my wife, Pamela, and and make sure that she's happy with the balance too. And, you know, I think that's a secret also for others these days that I'm hearing more about from young generations of people coming into the workplace. They do want better balance, and they also want, you know, rich experiences. They don't want a job that's, you know, kind of dull and doesn't grow from year to year. They want Yeah. You know, jobs that develop them. They want opportunities to do exciting things. I mean, for plus chance somebody the other day.

He said he's been working for 3 years, and and he wants to take his sabbatical. I go, wow. I worked for 40 years, and I don't think I even got a sabbatical at any point. It was kinda like you know? But they're looking at this whole thing in a different way. And my daughter, for example, is looking at that in a different way too. I mean, she's in her thirties, and I learned from her all the time that that younger people are looking at this in a very, very different way. So I think that's something that can help us. You know, dare I say, older folk learns a trick or 2.

So what I'm gonna try and learn in 2024 is the trick of more self care. Yeah. And, my my wife's given me 2 vouchers for floats, you know, where you go and completely zone out and pod.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I've been meaning to try that for years, actually, and I still haven't.

I've done it a couple of times, and it's brilliant. You really sort of zone out. So I need to use those vouchers and book those in. But but other than that, I think really, like I said, I'm just so happy that I'm in a place where I still got the health and I've still got the, opportunity to, you know, to have this impact and and and and to be doing the work that I'm doing. And it's enormously, you know, joyful to me that every now and again, that'll also get recognized as well. So I and if you saw my post on the little award that I won, the other, you know, the other night from women in management, at the House of Lords. It's great. You know, it's like an Oscar, this little statue.

And I had a picture of me taken with Luquiza Barrack, who's one of the BBC news presenters who's kind of presented the award. And it was like that moment where you think, oh, actually, it's really nice. You know, what I'm doing is also being recognized. And I think that's a kind of real joyful part of it too.

Brilliant. And if people want to reach out, if they want to connect with you, what's the best place or what's the best way they can do that?

So I'm in LinkedIn. I live on LinkedIn, basically. Actually, you all know me. So, reach out to me on on LinkedIn. And, you know, I I'd I'd love to obviously pick up conversations, connect with people. I'm already doing a lot of that. It's been one of the rich things that I've done in the last few years is really reach out to a lot of very, very different people, people very different to me. And and so I've learned so much from people with different cultures, different backgrounds, and and and I'd love to do more of that.

So, so so, yeah, let's, let's connect on LinkedIn.

Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, sharing your is your wisdom, sharing your insights around male allyship, how to support women at work, and then also generally about being happier at work. And I know before we started recording, we're we were sort of both saying that, like, I don't want to work in a in a job, let's say, where I I feel like I need to retire when I turn a certain age. I want to continue having that impact. And I think it's really important, you know, for your health, for your mental well-being, too, if that's what you want to do, to continue doing that and and not have the attitude that I'm waiting for retirement before I can feel happy or before I can travel the world or whatever it is that you want to do that we're deferring it in some way. I want to continue doing what I'm doing, but also have that sense of balance so that I can do the things in my spare time that I that I want to do, that bring me joy outside of work as well.

Well, that's great, Aoife, because you're gonna inspire a whole bunch of people to do more of that. So, and if I can contribute that a bit with this podcast, then, I'll be bit del delighted about that.

Thank you. Thank you so much for your time, Jay. We really appreciate it.

It's a pleasure.