When Laurence started out in business, he was a company of one. For 5 years he found his own clients, did sales and marketing, managed his finances. It didn’t even occur to him to ask for help.

Then one day he realised it wasn’t much fun anymore, and he could only go so far with his own skillset.

Thankfully a project came in that meant he had to ask for help if he was to take it on. He could either stay solo and play it small, or start thinking bigger. As luck would have it, Carlos was looking for new opportunities having landed in the same industry not long before.

The rest is history.

The challenge is not everyone has the fortune to find a business partner where things click so easily. Most of the people in the Happy Startup School community are companies of one, sole founders, solopreneurs, AKA lone wolves.

When you don't have a cofounder or no longer have colleagues, a community is your lifeline to connection, which is why in this episode, Carlos and Laurence explore how to find deep, lasting connections when you no longer work for a company (or have one of your own).

Long-time friends and facilitators Line Morkbak and Andrea Strohmayr share how to build nourishing, long lasting relationships in business. Line and Andrea have known each other for years. They are not business partners, yet help each other with their businesses. They are not colleagues, yet sometimes collaborate on projects. They met through business circles but yet help each other out with personal challenges.

The trouble is we don't yet have a vocabulary for these kind of relationships. Accountability buddies? Business friends? Colleagues?

What is clear is this is a conversation that needs to happen more openly. We see these relationships happen in the cohorts brought together on Vision 20/20 and more widely in the online community and from our events. However Line and Andrea are curious about how these relationships can blossom when no-one else is facilitating that connection as part of a committed course or event.

They share more about how their relationship came to evolve, give examples of the importance of these colleagueships, and dive into how we get to this level of comfort, vulnerability and trust with one another, where the commitment isn’t transactional, but rather grows out of curiosity, chemistry, and a genuine interest in one another.

Links

• Join the conversation live
• Become a member of the Happy Startup School
• Join the next Vision 20/20 cohort

Today we are joined by Line Morkbak and Andrea Strohmayr and some guy called Lawrence.

And we're gonna be talking about finding lasting colleagueship in business.

For those of you who dunno what Colleagueship means, we'll probably I'm gonna ask Line or Andrea to just explain that bit more.

But before we do that even, I'd love to just get Andrea and Line to just share a little bit about them.

Andrew, why don't you kick us off?

What has my positive energy at the moment is creating experience design for retreats with clients.

So I've been working with organizational culture for quite some time, and up to now I've described myself as the anthropologist that goes into an organization, helps them describe their culture and then scale it.

And now I have more and more clients that are remote only or remote first.

So offsites retreats get a different weight than what they had before.

And I'm all about not communicating about what you stand for in terms of culture, but let people live that and experience that without even mentioning it.

Uh, line, how about you?

How would you like to introduce yourself?

Ooh.

So right now I'm excited about a project that I'm kind of halfway through with the Swedish client, which is all about hybrid collaboration, how to support that organization, kind of take the next level, especially for the folks in, in team lead positions, how to guide that collaborative work when you're hybrid.

Um, and that's probably very saying for a lot of the work that I've done for a long time.

I worked in the virtual space and for, yeah, 15, 16 years.

And I'm European, I'm Danish, but I live on the north, on the west coast of the US, but I work a lot with Europeans.

So the, so the, the global component in this client is Swedish, but is also inter international colleagues in the mix and that kind of global container is also where I like to play, where we're not necessarily, the cultural engaging is on the agenda, but it always is under there underneath.

And then that becomes part of, part of that conversation around how do we do this collaboration with each other when we come from different cultural DNAs and step into the work with each other.

What motivates us?

How do we speak about what we need?

How do we give feedback to each other?

How do we coach each other?

So yeah, that is, uh, one of the things I'm excited about.

Um, I am also in a phase where I'm very excited about things that's outside of my work.

I'm right now very excited about my garden.

My garden is blooming.

Um, I live in, I live in the Oregon, uh, countryside, uh, on 11 acres.

So, uh, that's a big piece of this time of year as well.

I was just having, I had a conversation yesterday with a guy called Gareth Dauncey who has an app called Mood, and it's about tracking our mood.

And he loves being in the garden these days.

That's what he is saying.

He is like, being in the garden is wonderful.

I'm not a king gardener.

I don't really understand it.

But what he was saying is like, it has its own pace and rhythm.

You cannot force a garden to move at the speed you want it to move.

The word he used, you know, you have to just be present with the pace.

I have a tendency to be like, oh, that's gonna have to be later.

I'm gonna read that book later.

I'm gonna do that later.

Like, but the garden just needs my nourishing on, like, it needs to be nourished all the time.

So I take the time, even when I'm like too busy with other things, I'm like, no, I do need to water.

I do need to be out there.

Well, how is that going?

Because if I miss it, then study's like, well, that got too much heat and now those beets are not gonna be great, and that's my fault, right?

Um, so there's something that kind of calls me to be present with the garden that helps my, me personally in terms of getting, having a good balance between stepping away from work.

And to be honest, I have my best work ideas when I am pretty, got a lot of dirt on my hands and on my hands and knees in the garden.

I like the fact that you took a stab, this idea of nurturing and nurturing the garden, spending time with it rather than going to the supermarket and it being just a transactional approach of like, oh, I'm gonna have that pay some money and I'm off.

Because I feel it speaks to this whole conversation about these connections we make that aren't just transactional.

They need to be nurtured.

There's something around here that needs to be taken care of a bit more.

So this then, well this is leading me to this idea, right?

What you talk about, we're using the word here, colleagueship.

I was wondering if one of you could maybe take that on as a, just an explanation of what you're trying to say with that word.

I, I can start.

Um, colleagueship is, I mean, it's the combination of we're colleagues and there is a friendship, there is a nourishing connection, and also like, kind of chemistry going on, on, on a friendship level.

And this came out of conversation Andrea and I have had of like, what, how did this end up being, the way that we are collaborating together?

A colleague is someone that has your back, right?

That's like, isn't that a great idea?

Or should we do that?

Or, oh, I just figured out I deleted all that.

What do I do?

You know, like, okay, got you back, right?

Like, that's a colleague.

And I run my own business.

Andrea runs my, runs her own business.

I don't actually have colleagues I mean, I've got a lot of people in my network and I got a lot of people that I collaborate with on different projects.

But I don't have day-to-Day colleagues and people I hire on to help me with.

Like, oh, can you help me with this financial piece?

Can you help me with this writing project?

Can you edit this podcast or something, right?

But colleagues, I don't have those in the day to day.

But this colleagueship is this combination of like, yes, you got my back.

Sometimes work together.

Sometimes you're just that colleague that knows my workspace.

We know each other's workspace, so we can step in.

And we also see each other as that friend and that like, what is going on here?

Like, oh, I celebrate with you.

How amazing.

And I might celebrate something you did on your vacation.

I might celebrate a great conversation you had with your spouse.

I might celebrate a client you just not nailed, right?

Like, I'm a friend who are celebrating with you.

So it's that combo.

I think what I would probably like to add to it is I.

On some level this chemistry element that Line mentioned, because I feel often, especially when we start out as entrepreneurs, we probably take a moment to sit down and feel like I'm not that great at marketing or something like that.

And then we hire people for the parts where we lack skills.

And then we eventually get on someone that is a mentor or coach or something like that.

But oftentimes, especially when we start out from coming from corporate into entrepreneurship, we actually lack one layer of relationship.

So for me, those are the relationships.

If you are in a bigger corporate and then you become the first time manager and you have other people in other teams that step into the same role and that you can exchange about the pains and the difficulties and so on, you don't work with them really, but you have people who know where you are in your journey.

And I feel that layer we don't necessarily cater for when we try to set ourselves up as entrepreneurs.

On the other hand, often, especially when you start out and the majority of your friends are in corporate still or are not entrepreneurs, they just don't necessarily get what you're going through.

Even if they try, they might just not understand what's happening.

So I might say, I don't know, this client didn't accept that offer, and all of them will go like, oh God, I'm so sorry for you.

But someone else who is an entrepreneur themselves will ask like, okay did you even want to work with that client?

They might even celebrate the fact that I didn't get this client because for once I priced really high.

Or, so I feel like there is a level of not having to explain yourself and being able to live this full emotional journey that entrepreneurship is for me with someone that is more than just a colleague but isn't a transactional person that I hired onto some, yeah, to do some services for me.

But that combines kind of the two aspects.

Is colleagueship specifically for the self-employed, or are we thinking colleagueship can also exist within a, an orone organization?

Oh, I think it exists within an organization as well.

I mean, I think people have colleagues and then they have colleagues that just have another, that just has another layer of it.

I think the reason that Andrea and I have kind of talked about it in a different light is that what happens when you are entrepreneur is that it doesn't come, it doesn't come with the package of your job like it does uh, in, in, within an organization.

That doesn't mean it necessarily comes with the package there because maybe there isn't that chemistry, right?

But there's kind of a setup that, that happens.

You go to the canteen and have lunch, you, there's some networking things happening on that.

In your team, uh, or your managers connecting you with other people who have the same role with the organization, there's something that caters for it, right?

That we have less of with when you are a solo entrepreneur.

Um, so we have to be a little bit more conscious of it.

I think quite a lot of it happens or are Facilitated by the two of you within the Happy Startup tribe, right?

Um, and I think that happens also in other networking organizations or places similar to your own here, right?

To the Happy Startup School.

Part of the colleagueship, uh, is also kind of, putting it on as a responsibility on your own and not just leaning into great facilitators like yourself and be like, oh yes, hold this tribe for us, and then we'll lean in.

What's the next thing I'll sign up for?

And then I'll lean in.

Like I'll just kind of lean back into you guys holding it.

Like part of the colleagueship is to kind of step forward and saying, okay, if there is something here, how do I nourish that?

How do I invest in that?

How do I explore it further and make that grow and make that happen?

How do I dare do that also?

And so there's something about investing yourself and not just plugging into, someone else holding that space for you.

It reminds me of um, someone shared this way of talking about you have, there's your family and there's your chosen family.

So you get born into this group of people.

Maybe some of them you don't really like, but you have to love them.

Is your mind watching this?

And then there, there are people that you choose to call family.

And this is what you're saying.

I heard you say you kind of, you actively, or maybe by accident, but you then nurture that relationship because this is something you, that you found find there's something that's connecting you.

And so this whole thing about leaning in to colleagueship is interesting for me.

And mainly from the perspective of like, I've forgotten what it's like not to have people around me in business who are just like nice people as well and just want to hang out with rather than how can we do work together?

So there's having that amnesia about what it's like not to have this.

But also I, I would say it's not amnesia, 'cause you've never been in that situation where you've been running a business on your own needing support, we've always had each other.

I would say yes and no because before we worked together I was in a, an organization where there was this sense, oh yeah, we're colleagues, you know, we're working together, we are like all pulling in the same direction to make this business better.

Really?

You know, did I really believe it?

I can remember in this company we were sat in, in the founder's flat all talking about, I think just the direction of the business.

But we weren't.

They were talking about the direction of the business.

I had no say.

I was like, oh.

It was like, how do we actually, we'll say something here.

So thank you Lawrence for reminding me of that, actually.

There was a time when I was like, I was just part of a team of a crew.

You know, we came in, we did some work, I knew what I was doing.

I didn't really necessarily know all the people there, or I had a connection with them.

And some of them I didn't actively want to have a connection with them.

And also I, I don't think I knew how to, I think that's the other thing I don't, I didn't know actually how to.

What is it I was trying to?

Because there was this kind of like, I dunno, scarcity mindset.

I just like, oh no, you know, if I do something for them, do they have to do something for me?

And, you know, can I ask, what can I not ask?

You know, those, I wasn't, it felt slightly transactional.

I couldn't just be vulnerable and say, I need help.

Thankfully, there was a couple of people there who I could do that with, but not, you know, it didn't feel comfortable to do that with everyone.

So I think I'm just stepping back, say for that person who's finding themselves in corporate or even just a small, sort of medium sized business, and they're like, okay, I'm kind of, you know, feel like I'm alone here.

What would you say to them, you know, what is it, what could they, how could they look at this differently?

Or how could they lean into finding people they could work with or be with?

I think for me the awareness is a big part of it.

Because I feel like especially when you yeah, run your business, you're so much in the hustle and puzzle and then you have people that you collaborate with, you need to take care of, and you're trying to switch off what you talked about before and then you're trying to meet other people, but to actually introduced, consciously introduce

this layer of peer support, and I feel a bit of a poster talking to this community here because I feel everybody here does it, it doesn't feel like something so special.

But when I talk to entrepreneurs that don't, that are not part of this community or don't have a similar community, this is where they're struggling.

And I think like we often feel like, okay, I've talked to this person now twice about their business.

There is not going to be a fixed project that is coming out of this right now.

Can I bother them again?

If I call them now again, this is a waste of their time?

What are they going to think of me?

Because we don't necessarily have vocabulary or kind of just like the notion of that is a thing that is really helpful as well.

And then we tend up talking to our friends about our business that don't necessarily get it.

And I think it gets easier the longer you do this, the more entrepreneurial friends you have.

But I think what Line and me just wanted to do with this discussion is also to bring it on people's minds that there is something that might just really help them so much that they're not aware of.

And in your community, there's so many beautiful stories of people just like being very complimentary and using that to then either discipline each other or help each other to go wider with ideas or so many stories of this.

And I think what is really special here in this community as well is the level of vulnerability that we get to.

The level of private stuff that we have shared with over the years is just incredible.

And yeah, Line, for example, just to share an a story, she has been a vital part of me enjoying my pregnancy, which is not the first thing you would think of if you think about a colleague.

But just also not having someone that is probably a couple of years ahead of you and knows what you might be going through can sympathize.

And then kind of having the conversation of, do we want to make this a more of a regular thing?

So that you don't have to every time tiptoe around, is this not weird if I reach out to this person again?

Is this person going to be disappointed because there's no project coming off this?

Am I wasting their precious time that they could be spending on client work?

And I think it's about understanding this.

Okay I'm kind of liking this.

There's a good energy here.

And then seeing what space does this take for me?

Hmm.

I wanna add here also that uh, Andrea and I started talking about this because we're experiencing it with each other, but we also experienced it with other people in, in other contexts, right?

So it kind of become, came like, how has that happened?

What are the kind of steps that has gone into that for these colleagueships to have shaped over time in different spheres of the work that we each do?

And some of the things that came up was that, well, it's been intentional of kind of sensing some sort of chemistry and then keep kind of following that, uh, and then allowing yourself to keep following that, and without it being like, oh, we're networking, but actually like, oh, let's

hang out, have a chat, and kind of, and almost all of the, of these colleagueships I have has started with like, this was a great conversation.

Should we just meet in another month and just connect again?

Mm.

And And that just gonna be like, there's no, there's no purpose but more like there's no kind of like, um, task purpose or networking purpose, but more just like, I like that.

Does it make sense for you that we keep kind of connecting here?

And then that has kind of flourished into, and then sometimes it's more frequent and then it's less frequent.

And there's several people who have had this connection with, and if I, and I could even, if I hadn't connected with them for like a year or two, I could go back and connect on that level with them if I, I could kind of re pass it had, right?

Because it wasn't tied into a project, but more sharing life slash work together.

So it is this breaking down that barrier between what's the professional and what's our personal lives and like being in that mix in between there.

The thing that comes to mind is like, I think Andrea said awareness that this is possible or it's a thing that I need, but then it also feels like there's vulnerability or the risk that comes with, or the feared risk of that comes with asking someone, can you or can we do this again, or can we make this a thing?

And we even see it in the communities, like people in our current cohort, for example, because a lot of 'em are new to the idea of colleagueship or the idea of being more vulnerable in business and not kind of guarding your work or not being shut down when your emotions come to play because that's not been rewarded in the company or environment you're in.

Having to kind of orchestrate that and tell people No just ask someone.

Just reach out for a one-to-one, without us having to, like you said, without us having to hold your hand,

it feels to me, this is why I'm excited about this conversation because it feels like we don't have a, well, A, a language and B, a, I guess a playbook for it in terms of what is the, what are the options?

Like you said, one's just a monthly, Hey, let's just make meet up.

Another thing feels like, let's make this a more ongoing thing where we, you know, turn it into a verbal agreement between each other.

But it feels, the first thing is someone needs to take the first risk.

I dunno if that happened with you guys, that one of you went, ah, you know, thanks for asking 'cause I was thinking the same thing.

How did it happen?

You started, you reached out to me, I think, right?

That's right.

Yeah, um,

so.

What was the first date?

The first date was actually Line ran management 3.0 sessions.

Kind of like teaser sessions because you were, and I dialed in from the car being completely stuck in traffic jam and just like phasing in and out of that call and just hearing bits and pieces of what you were saying, but I kind of felt like she had an energy that I wanted to get connected to more.

And then I think I reached out to have a follow up call and we were really just like chatting along.

And then one of the first things we actually discussed, like what are events that you're attending this year?

And then that's how we both then met at Summercamp in person for the first time.

But I think what I want to add is the first time to connect with someone is something that we still kind of do more or less natural because we feel as entrepreneurs, we need to grow our network.

I think it's the part after the second or the third call where it becomes tricky.

Because then there's always some expectation in the room and that needs to be addressed, especially if we are working in a similar sphere, because then often it's like, oh, we could do work together, but probably nothing is yet on the horizon, or it doesn't happen yet.

And then it's about do we then still keep this going because often.

What I've experienced is that people enter into this conversation with the expectation of a project coming off it very soon.

That's the one thing that I think is something you need to navigate.

And the other thing is also what happens if you do very similar work?

Are you then somehow competition?

Also, how far can you ask the other person for advice on projects that they could get paid for as well?

How far do you go there?

When do you cross the line to then say, Hey, I really am going to hire you on this project?

Mm-Hmm.

So I think a lot of it is about being conscious of all of that and just having the discussion kind of, does this feel okay for, you know, to be doing this, to be helping me out, or should we make this something more formal?

And we've collaborated on projects, but I would say the majority of our exchanges are actually non, like non-transactional, no, no project.

Just quickly, I wonder if there's, is there a fear that I'm getting more out of this than the other person?

Oh yeah.

So like, Is this working for you too?

Is this two way street or is it just one way?

For me?

Yes.

Definitely be.

Yeah.

I think in this story probably.

Right.

And I think there was a couple of times where I was hiring Andrea for something that I know was not her biggest expertise was something that I just really needed.

I'm like, are you okay doing this for me?

Can I mean, I'm sorry, it's just like this, you know, like, so it felt like it felt, but she's like an amazing writer.

So I was like, can you write this for me?

Because I cannot do it for the life of me.

And she just whips it out.

She's like, yeah, I'm happy to help, right?

So, but I've actually say recently there has been more of, like, we've been meeting in the beginning of the year when we're both like diving into strategy for our business.

Where you at, what are you in a funk?

What vision, what visions do you have for your business?

Where do you wanna grow?

Having those kind of conversations with each other but also just took a course together um, as like, oh, couldn't this be fun to dive into?

Maybe that could be some work we could do together and we could learn here together.

And it was actually interesting to see us showing up together in, in a group of strangers because, Andrea, I don't know how you felt, but we very much felt, it felt like we came as colleagues.

Like we, that's where I think the colleague portion stepped in.

Like it was very obvious that we could have come from the same business, right?

Because we just knew each other very well.

So in that group of strangers, we came as a united force in that way.

So that was also like an interesting, experience to be standing out together, right?

Uh, we've done that a couple of times with clients, but not so much actually.

It's been more just supporting each other.

I will say, I think as I'm looking back, I think a lot of the other colleagueships I have, have started out by we'll probably do some work and then it just never did.

But then we just, I mean, so I think often that becomes the kind of what you hide behind a little bit.

But I think it could be very beneficial to not have that, be a driver, not have the transactional, how do we Ben, both benefits from this, have that be the driver would be more transparent and vulnerable about, like, I have, there's value here for me.

Could we explore this further?

Do you wanna walk this path a little bit further with me?

The word curiosity is ringing in my ears.

And this meeting someone, I, I'm curious about you.

You know, I just wanna get to know you and I want to get to know you more.

And maybe it's because we are in the same industry or the same location, but there's something around this, yeah, there's something more I want to know, it feels about this person, about what they do and then taking it from there as opposed to I know exactly who they are, I just need to get that bit from them.

Yes.

And so I was trying to think about this whole, you know, you said as entrepreneurs or as solopreneurs, you know, we network anyway 'cause we need to network.

So we kind of.

It's kind of natural for us just to reach out to people and just have a conversation.

And then the second conversation and then, ooh, the third conversation is like, oh, this what's happening here.

There's a bit of chemistry, or is there not?

Am I reading the wrong thing into this?

And I think some of, part of the conversations we've had previously about this is, I hate to use the word formalizing, but this idea of like how can I understand where I stand?

And I'm gonna like, you know, you had a date, your third date, and is this going somewhere?

You know.

We could have kids.

Yeah/

we settle down?

Run a mile.

But it feels very like that.

It's like, okay, oh my God, are you gonna start asking stuff of me?

Are we allowed to see other people?

If you're in that mindset of idea, essentially it's like, how much am I committing here?

How, symmetric is this, you know, if you're already in that space, I feel that could start getting dangerous.

And that's where it becomes vulnerable, right?

Because that is where it is like dating of like, am I as intrigued by you as you are by me?

You know, is, are you ready to dive in as well as I am ready to dive in, right?

So it becomes vulnerable.

And I think that is the piece to also kind of step into.

And I think we hide behind the transactional.

So I think to not hide behind that, but being more, yeah, transparent about like, I'm learning a lot here.

This is, this, there is inspiration for me.

Could this be interesting for you to continue doing a little bit of this?

Um, I think that time, I know for me, I would, I would often be like, do I have time for this?

Like, am I investing?

Because we're not investing money, but are we investing time?

is this beneficial enough for me to spend the time on it?

So, and I think that is, I mean, and that's also how we would be with that date.

Am I investing more here?

Am I hanging out with this person more or is it kind of done?

So I think a good colleagueship could also be something that was conversation for like six months and then that was it.

That's also a good colleagueship.

I connected with a woman in a Dutch woman in in Bali for a while, and there was some great synergy and then just kind of phased out.

Like it was like we were just like reached a certain level and a lot of inspiration and, and a lot of links and, and just kind of sharing life uh, and some trauma and then it just kind of fists that fits out.

But I could reach her at any point to just oops, by the way.

And I think, and we could kind of, we could take it from there.

But it fist out and that was okay as well.

It had, its own life.

It had a shortage chapter.

You, You, I think you used the word investment or something.

Is it worth investing my time in here.

And what came up was this, there's a kind of a goal oriented versus emergent approach to this relationship.

Then the other thought that's springing to mind is like, is this expanding me or is this contracting me?

Is this energizing me or is this draining me?

Is this taking away from me or is this adding to me?

And not in the sense of like, okay, this is gonna add to my bottom line, or this is going to make me more effective.

It's like energetically

But there's another component, very important.

'cause it's not me.

It's a colleagueship.

It's also like, am I giving that person something?

Because there's been times where Andrea and I connected that maybe it's just been a lot of listening and a lot of giving or hearing and not anything back necessarily.

Like, it's not always this, right?

Like, I mean, and then that becomes that caring piece of like, okay, I'm just here listening.

Oh, is this what you need?

I'm here to give you a little bit of that.

And then it, so there, there is also that piece of investing that like, I am here for you.

And so I'm not at all measuring the transaction of is it interesting enough?

Am I, you know, like this becomes.

I think um, when we look at the colleagueship part of it's like, okay, how, I don't know how this person runs their business, is just something that I feel like I'm inspired by and I want to learn more about.

Or also just like, yeah, a lot of curiosity as in what do they explore?

Can I learn from them?

But not necessarily like on a factual level, knowledge is theories or something like that, but just, um, to understand how can you go about entrepreneurship in many different ways and the different postures and all of that.

So I think that's the one part.

But then I fully agree on the friendship part, it's really also just about being there for each other.

And I had, yeah, as I said, my week was a bitch.

I phoned up Line 10 minutes prior to this call.

I was dissolved in tears and she picked me up and uh, here we are.

So, yeah, I think that is that other component to it that then makes it as, I don't know, wholesome as cool for me as it's.

Mm-Hmm.

Just picking up what you said before Line, about, you know, there, there's what I'm getting from this and then what I'm giving and I'm just curious about this.

try not to assume what the other person is getting or not getting.

Because in a sense it's their responsibility.

And this is for me, maybe this is the adult part of this colleagueship thing is like, it's up to each individual to say, I'm getting what I need, or I'm not getting what I need.

And that not to turn into drama.

And this is where I feel this is where the vulnerability and the deeper aspect of this relationship that isn't just transactional based on some kind of monetary exchange or time exchange, is like actually we can be really honest with each other, what I'm getting and what I'm needing.

And this is where I'm feeling it's starting to link into like just any kind of relationship

it is in the end.

It's just something that works very well for us that we felt that we wanted to share with other people.

So I think it's also this adult part of just being able to say like, listen, I am very, I'm snowed in under, in terms of projects.

I will not be able to meet for the next two months or something like that.

But then to completely have the confidence to then reach out afterwards and trust all of that.

So I think like this whole, it's not a rejection, it's just then again, knowing what entrepreneurial day looks, days and lives look like to just say like, yeah, sure, of course, and we will connect after that.

So I think it's this.

Level of understanding that you have because you know what each other's reality is, and then being able to work with that much better instead of, because I feel like if I talk to friends that I have fixed jobs and I will tell them, I don't know, I have two months that I will just not be able to meet because I'm

literally not available, that there might be, it might be harder for them to understand than if someone works project based as well and just has a similar life.

There's something here on a manual ritual, I feel.

There's something about this regular contact, this nurturing.

If we go back to the gardening where yes, Andrea, you can be snowed under for two months, I can't do it because I'm really, you know, busy and you know, the garden will go dry.

It's gonna have to do that.

But then you have, you do go back to it and there is some kind of, I don't know if it's a formal cadence or just some way of connecting that is very clear.

I think there's something that's why ritual sp to mind is we know how this works.

And that's maybe something that is implied or just somehow co-created, not necessarily intentionally.

Are we gonna design a way to interact?

I've um, experimented with different forms.

So just like, uh, Line, I've also, I do have different colleagueships with different people, and um, with Line we had phases where I think we were speaking every two weeks or something.

We were really like intensely experimenting together as well.

Not necessarily immediately for monetary outcome, but just like I say, like, I wanna try this out, you wanna try this out as well, and where we're much closer contact.

And then there are phases where we don't speak for two months and, but I know at any moment I can reach out to her, but if shit hits the fan I know she will help me.

And sometimes just knowing that she's there it could possibly help me is calming me down and I know I can fix this myself.

So I think that's the one thing.

And the other thing is also I feel like with different people, just like some friends you meet once a year and it's fine whether you meet every two weeks and that's fine.

Mm-Hmm.

So with others, we also had a more formalized once a month and every time before we hang up, we fix the next date kind of thing.

I've had other masterminds where we had fixed like the first Monday of a month at 10:00 AM or something like that.

And um, I really feel you can do all of them, but I think it's about having this discussion, not what works for us.

What I'm thinking about is, for instance, our group coaching program, Vision 2020, we meet once a week, and that's quite a very strict fixed cadence.

What that does though is because it's very clear when people turn up, how you turn up and why you turn up, it becomes a habit that then creates a space, and because of the way we run it, people start to share a bit more.

People start to be a bit more open.

They don't have to think about, when am I gonna see you next?

Or let's put it in the diaries.

It's like, this is happening, I'm gonna have to be there, I'm not.

And then I feel like it gets to a point where, actually I think we're just gonna organize something ourselves separately.

You know, even after the programs, people just stick around and they, they just start to, because they're more familiar with each other, because they've experienced, whether that's vulnerability in that space, they then are happy to just co-create their own cadence and their own ways and times to, to connect.

So not wanting to formalize this I, idea of colleagueship or the journey of colleagueship too much, but there's, it feels like, you know, having some simple rituals to start to lean on, if you are scared of like, asking people to connect or how to connect.

Like Lucy's weekly mastermind is like a simple way to start, all right, we're gonna do like a weekly call and this is it and this, we'll do that for six weeks and we'll see where it takes us and that.

And then there's a very clear agreement that's what we're doing together without it going too deep.

And it adds, it can also be that it's just a, that it is a, it's a certain topic that you're exploring together.

Like, I wanna learn more about this because this is where I see you are strong in this space.

And then you just kind of formalize it very loosely around that.

Um, yes, it can help to have the task or the cadence to, to build that and it, but it doesn't have to.

It also makes me, and we talked a little bit about this, Andrea, and I was like, I don't know how much, I mean, I have it with guys, but I have it way more with other females.

Like, so I also, I don't know if there is a female social touch that comes more natural that's part of this, and uh, there is something around stepping into this vulnerability of like, I dig you, I wanna learn more from you, uh, Let's hang out, uh, and also is more okay if it's the same, if it's the same gender and not the same, you know, or if it's male, female.

I mean, there's an, there's some interesting combinations here.

I think because we're stepping into a, an intimate space uh, of like holding each other, sharing these like the friendship part, sharing that intimacy in some ways.

So I think that's it.

That's I don't have the answer for it.

I can just see that my own patterns is that there's been more, it's been more female relationships and they are easier, not only, but primarily more female relationships from east myself.

So what's coming up for me around this is when you're talking about leaning in and also talking about your both of your experience at Summercamp, there's something about leaning into shared experiences as a way to just sow a seed for this.

So this is the story in my head is like, I'm in an organization, I'm doing my work, I kind of feel lonely, and I just turn up every day and I'm just churning through that.

Now how do I lean into this?

Well, how do I lean into experiences that maybe are with people in the organization or outside of it, where I'm going there just purely to enjoy an experience, to have the time to learn something new, to do something different?

And while I'm there, be open and curious about people there?

And then through that, maybe you have a, you meet someone, oh, I'm curious, let's meet again afterwards.

But intentionally, you know, I'm going to intentionally call you up or we're gonna just have a coffee or something like that.

Purely for curiosity.

Purely because we must have, there must have been some connection 'cause we're doing this thing together, whether's, Summercamp, Alptitude, photography lessons, whatever it is.

We did something together that, that connects us, and then we're discovering what else connects us, and how, you know, maybe through that we've discovered more depth in the relationship.

think what comes to mind as you say it like that is that oftentimes when I feel like we need to unlearn networking a bit, because so often yeah, it's this transaction, but it's also so much about looking for someone who can do X, Y, Z.

Mm.

And I think what is probably the common the shared threat here is just that our common interest is entrepreneurship.

And I also feel like if you are running your own business, you're most.

Well, there's a fair chance that you are spending more time thinking about this than and more passionate about it.

More interesting

Than is healthy.

Yes.

So yeah, just going in there with not, what can I learn from this person?

What can I hire this person for?

On a, yeah, I mentioned before like fact-based thing or really knowledge based, but more from a posture and attitude, a experience point of view.

I think a big piece for when we are solo entrepreneurs is not for everybody, but it is for, and it's also for people who are not so entrepreneurs, but I think it's something when we are entrepreneurs, it's that our work is so closely tied into our identity.

Like, so that it is merged.

Like we were just having like cardos were kicking off.

We're like, oh, Wednesday is my weekend, right?

Because my work and my life is merged in that way, right?

Like, and I think for when we run our own business, what we do and our passion, our visions, our struggles with it is so tied into our identity.

So when we then step in and discuss that with someone, yes, we can network, but it's very beneficial when we go to that next level of these colleagueships because we're bringing our identity.

It's so tied into who we are that we do this business.

Which also means like some of the conversations where I've very heavily lead with Andrea has been when I've been struggling with like, am I doing the right thing?

Am I closing down my business?

Because what does that mean about me?

It's not just out here.

Am I, I so tied into the work that I do, which is why that, that colleagueship becomes extremely beneficial.

And other people around me are like, oh, it's okay.

Just cruise a little bit.

I'm like, they don't get it.

It's so hard for me just to cruise and just be like, wishy-washy about my job because it's me, right?

This is, so,.

It's so tied into our identity.

So that's that other level and why I think it is extremely important.

But also the place that we have in common, because that's almost everyone that shows up at, at, you know, at Summercamp or in, in this community is like, my work is this.

And it's, very close to where my heart and my passion beats, right?

No, I like how you did, you presented that.

There's people who are passionate about what they do and it is very tied to their identity, whether that be good or bad, but it's something that is, this is, this work represents me.

And so whether I do it seven days a week or not, that's because I love it.

I'm passionate about it.

It's something I really wanna work on.

And there are some people say, oh, why are you doing that all the time?

That's, you know, unhealthy.

They're like, fuck you, this is important to me.

This is what I do.

If you don't understand that, well, I'm gonna find someone else who does.

And so there's something around, for me, particularly for those passionate entrepreneurs, people who are, you know, who identify with their work, that it's so entwined that the personal really does impact the professional, maybe even more than someone who's just employed.

And how those things weave in and out because they impact, you know, they go both ways, needs to be understood in order for us to talk about it and work with it.

And you can't talk about it to the people who don't understand that

And that's also where I think the colleagueship becomes that, are you ready to hold this precious baby of mine?

Like when I am having struggled with it or when I celebrate it, like I in that colleagueship in connection is like, yay I cherish this as much.

I know what this means to you, right?

I I celebrate alongside of you.

I'll give you input on like, wow, this could be the next thing.

Oh, I just read this and thought about you.

Isn't this cool?

You should, you know, you should check this out, right?

So there's this joint passion for it or understanding around the passion.

I think for me it's the layers.

I think for me it's, the conversation doesn't just happen on one layer.

If I talk to Line about, I don't know, how do you scope this project?

Or how do you price this project?

Or how do you organize yourself?

It's never just about the how do you do these things.

It's about what works for you, what is coming up for you?

Why are you doing it like this?

I've tried this does this to me and so on.

And so I feel like only by having these two layers, they can have a real conversation.

Because if someone just gives me tips on a technical level, I will still then have to do the work to say like, okay, why am I resisting this?

Or why am I so excited about this and still not working or why?

Yeah, I think it's about understanding that there's always this personal element to it in order to.

Because They're invested in you, it sounds like,, and it's not just me looking clever as a mentor or as an expert, like, go do this.

It worked for me.

Exactly.

Yes.

Yeah.

What also came up for me is maybe you're talking about, maybe it's pricing, maybe it's scoping, there's a and Line sees that there's something not quite right and she'll say, stop Andrea, what's really going on?

Exactly, yes.

Because it might not actually do anything to do with the project.

Yes.

And to have that, have someone to be able to, A, feel comfortable enough to say that, but B, for you to be comfortable not to say, actually it's nothing to do with this.

This is what's actually going on with me.

And suddenly, boom, you solve the problem.

And it's nothing to do with someone being clever and telling you what to do.

Yeah.

And I think that's what we wish for anyone who is, you know, working for themselves, but particularly for people who are part of the community, who maybe coming to Summercamp for the first time and run, trying to wonder around what is this?

Is this business, is this pleasure?

Is this life?

Is this that, is this inspiration?

Is this action?

Is this just sitting around on a hay bale just soaking in the sun?

Mm-Hmm.

All of it, all it more.

But the thing that comes up for me is what you said about the shared experience as a way to kickstart a connection.

I think the reason we started this conversation was we are trying to experiment with the idea of this at Summercamp, and you're now making me think there's other people out there coming to Summercamp who are also looking for a similar thing.

They, they maybe don't even know that they need it yet, or maybe they do, but they dunno how to go about taking that relationship beyond some account without us, without me kind of saying, you go and talk, or here's another program, or here's another event.

So that feels to me like the challenge we're trying to, or opportunity we're trying to address here is how can we give people permission and an easy way to move forward with.

Other people who are at Summercamp who might wanna reach out and have a relationship like you guys have, or multiple relationships like you guys have, with other people there who are also looking for that same thing.

I'm, we're really loving diving into this and because to be honest, we are having the experience and now we're kind of stepping back and kind of like looking at the mechanics of it and what happened?

What do we do in these situations to kind of try and trace back, like what are the, how do you make this happen?

What are some of these components?

And some of it is being brave.

It's some of our being intentionally and stepping into that vulnerable space with each other.

But also knowing that a part of it's also like going on the ride together and not knowing where it ends like that.

Like it can be a long chapter or a short chapter there.

Just part of that, not having too many things kind of tied into expectations around it, but really being there is a chemistry here.

Like, let's, I wanna explore that a little bit further game.

Let's, Let's go, let's do this.

I love that analogy of going a ride together beyond Summercamp.

There's a few bicycles waiting at the, you know, exit.

Who's, who's wanting to jump on one with me.

Yeah.

That's, yeah.

Like, like let's say you wanna connect in, in the fall and let dive a little bit further into some of this.

So, yeah.

I felt a bit of an imposter showing up here today because I know there's so many examples out there.

So yeah, for anyone listening in, happy to hear about your stories and also help us reverse engineer on how you went about this because we're not the only ones doing this year.

And um, for me it has been incredibly valuable.

So I would like to, yeah, unpick more than what we have started to unpick to help more people just enjoy this because it's absolutely lovable.

Well, thank you very much, both of you, for Kickstarting this conversation.

Yeah.

I think raising the consciousness, this happens, this is possible.

And the benefits of it like you said, I'm, I'd love to encourage any of you within our community who are, is experiencing this in any way to, if you're coming to Summercamp, you can share that experience, share those stories.

And it feels like, you know, this is the world we wish we could live in more of, you know, where we can just have these Op I was open relationships.

Okay.

New chapter.

Fud, Freudian slip there.

Let's take that rewind.

But yeah.

Mark, to.

To feel, I think just be able to feel more comfortable and connected in these business relationships where we can actually get rid of the roadblocks much more quickly.

So because we're having more connected conversations.

I just wanna say a big heartfelt shout out because you guys are holding a community who are like, who, who's a container for ongoing of this.

And yes, some of us doing it on our own as well.

But a big piece of where I'm doing a lot of this is in the container in the tribe that you guys are holding on a daily basis for years and years now.

So I just kind of wanna make sure that's very crystal clear/ and we'll do it again at Summercamp, right?

Because you are again, holding that space for us and creating that space for us.

Thank you very much, Line.

Yeah, I just wanna encourage whoever is in listening in and feels like there's this one person I actually feel like there might be something that I want to explore, just reach out, just have these conversations and have them more than once, have them more than twice, have them more than three times,

and have the discussion if this is working for both sides I find it so incredibly enriching and I just wish that everybody has more of these relationships.

So yeah, just dare and might not work with everyone, but it might just work with one or two people and it can be life changer.

it feels to me there's something about being a grownup, like having grownup conversations.

Not like, oh, I don't wanna be rejected, or I don't wanna be yeah, I don't wanna be feeling like I'm needy, but actually just having the conversation to say, is this working for you?

Are you willing to help?

Can I can I help you?

Feels like a grown up thing to do, but something we all struggle with is we don't wanna be rejected, particularly when it's tied like Line said, to our identity.

I was listening to a podcast today by Hidden Brain and the topic was how our beliefs shape our reality.

And two, kind of one of the questions was, we either believe that the world is a wonderful, beautiful, friendly place, or is horrible and scary.

And that belief then shapes how the world you live in.

And where that comes from, listen to the podcast is fascinating.

Who knows?

But they were saying, doesn't matter what experiences you have in life, if you have the belief that the world is scary, every experience will reinforce that belief that the world is scary.

And all you need, all you need to do shift the belief and suddenly the world will be different and the experiences will be different.

And so, and I had a belief that I had to win at life.

So winning at life means being the best or being other way, trying to push hard, realizing actually you don't win at life.

Well, the, the, the, the prize is death.

So fucking shit prize.

Why not just then if there's no race, then it's a case of like, well, who can I talk to here?

Who can I enjoy this time with?

How can I just spend this time enjoyably?

I've still gotta pay the bills, still got to do the work, but for the rest of the time who's around, you can expand me somehow.

Whatever means.

So this is for me, why I'm fascinated by how we can introduce this idea.

I feel there is a shift in belief as well that's required what we believe work to be about.

And a shift in mindset I think as well.

I just think of some of the more traditional, well, particularly speed networking events and me, Carlos, went to, when we first started out in business, it's very much like what's in it for me?

Like, what can I sell to you?

Everyone's selling, no one's buying, no one's helping anyone.

We're all competing against each other for a small piece of the pie.

And like Tinder, it's very superficial.

I'm looking at the surface and what you, Andrea and Lina are trying to do is how can we look a bit deeper and what does that take and how long does it take?

And what do we, how do we need to turn up in order to look underneath the hood?

Thank you very much both of you.

Really, uh, inspiring conversation.

Really fascinating, and I'm looking forward to to, yeah, to bringing this to Summercamp So thank you everyone else for listening live.

Really appreciate your comments and your questions.