Rev. Dr. Gregory Seltz, Executive Director, Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty in Washington, D.C., offers his insight on the state of religion and government in the US.

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

Welcome to the Liberty alert with Gregory. Seltz sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran center for religious liberties here in Washington, DC, a program that cuts through the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to kingdom, citizenship of old biblical principles for a robust public Christian life. And now your host, Dr. Gregory Seltz

Good day, good day, Washington DC, and friends of the program all around the country. I'm Gregory. Seltz welcome to the Liberty alert where every week we try to cut through the noise and take on the issues, especially the public issues that matter to you, people of faith, but I'm always amazed to hear people say that the word of God isn't relevant to today's issues. Are you kidding me? I mean, selfishness crime relationship brokenness, a culture of disinformation, fear, despair and leaders who say, do what I say, not what I do. I mean, you know, all the way back in the old Testament, the book of numbers talked about a time, even among believers when people did what was right in their own eyes. Of course, God had a remedy for that then. And he has a remedy for that today. Do what is right in his eyes, speak his truth in love wise, as serpents and harmless as doves, and always be ready to give an account of the hope that is within you.

That comes from his gospel. Good news. You know, we're gonna have to learn how to do that because we have a culture today that is more determined to silence the truths of the Bible, uh, more than ever before, not just by shame and ridicule, as outrageous as that is in a civil society, but now even by law, intimidation, fines and even criminal charges. Wow. You know, right now in the United States of America, Christian adoption agencies are being threatened. Christian universities, bullied Christian based homeless shelters sued. And that's not even to mention all the businesses owned and operated by Christians who just desire to love others as God and Christ loves them. Those are our topics for the program and relevant as ever. They are. So today we are, uh, talking with Ryan Tucker, um, a friend and a partner in the religious Liberty fight. That's for sure, but he's senior council and director of the center for Christian May industries with Alliance defending freedom. And, uh, I, he oversees litigation efforts to maintain and defend religious freedom in America for our churches, our schools, our preschools, our universities, actually for us all because religious Liberty is something that everyone should share. So it's a foundational right, uh, for our country. So welcome, uh, to our, to the Liberty alert. Ryan,

Greg, thank you for having me always. It's a pleasure.

That's our pleasure too. Well, listen, you and I both know that that ministries are facing increasing religious freedom challenges. Is it becoming more, uh, punitive out there for churches and ministries to do their job?

Absolutely. I mean, let, let's look at, what's transpired in the last, uh, couple of years, you know, I think most churches, uh, church goers, congregants looked at this and said, well, you know, I, I hear these one off, uh, stories about, uh, the government maybe trampling upon the rights of this VI or that individual or these religious Liberty fights are for like the Jack Phillips, you know, the, uh, cake artists and others like that. But I think what COVID showed us and some of these more recent examples show us that a lot of these battles are actually the churches doorstep, you know, not just literally, but, but, uh, you know, just in a, in a, in a broader sense. And so think, uh, you know, times have certainly changed and I've certainly seen that at ADF, the number of requests we've gotten

Well, and the thing for me, you know, I run into this in our church a lot. They think, oh, you're overstating the case. Uh, we really should just let these things play out and just keep doing our work and serve and serve and serve. And I'm saying, no, it's worse than that. They're literally trying to shut down the voice of the, so it cannot be heard. Do you think, um, do you think we're prepared? I mean, are, are, are churches prepared for what's coming?

Uh, some are, you know, some are, but I think vast majority are not. And I think, you know, your points well taken. You know, one of the frustrations for me sometimes is, you know, we get so many calls and, uh, you, you know, oftentimes, you know, when I, when I have those initial conversations, it's usually like, um, well, you know, I heard about this happening to other people. I never thought it might happen to me.

Oh, wow. Yeah.

And so I, I usually have to deal with facts as they're already written, but, you know, I think what's, what's great about what we're doing at ADF and what I think the church can do is be prepared. I mean, God calls us to, you know, be prepared to be, to use, um, what he's given us to, to be wise. And, uh, I think there are things that the church can do to not only be prepared, but, uh, to also share the love of Christ and the process is they're, they're going about, uh, daily preparation.

Well, and you know, one of the taglines we always say in our program, him is speak the truth in love and be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. And I think sometimes, uh, we forget that God calls us to a cultural, uh, challenge too. We have to speak his law, his moral teachings, his moral ordering of the world, as well as his good news of the gospel. And it truly is the moral things that are under attack. And these are not ours. These are God's moral ordering of the world. Right?

Well, that's, that's absolutely right. I mean, if, if the church isn't speaking truth, then you know, what is it that our, our kids and grandkids and fellow friends are listening to, all they hear is you the enemy, the enemy's voice. I mean, we have to step forward. We have to step up. We have to engage well,

That that's exactly right. And we do have an engagement strategy because God engages the world. I mean, he's the one who preserves it. He's the one who saves it and we want to be useful in his hands. And so that's my biggest issue when you deal with these kinds of things, people need to know that ministry being thwarted ministry is being, uh, subdued. And, you know, I, I think a couple years back, you were dealing with a, a case in, in Anchorage, the, the downtown hope center. And, um, I think you won that case, but it's come back, hasn't it what's going on with all that

It, it has. And I, and I think it, it probably is maybe just the best illustration of, of, uh, you know, sort of where we're at its so, so the, the downtown hope center is a, just a great ministry in Anchorage, Alaska. They cater to, uh, women who are, um, unfortunately have gone through the, the, the most difficult traumas, sexual abuse, sex trafficking, that sort of thing. And in Anchorage, Alaska, there's no refuge solely devoted for women. So what this great organization does is during the day they cater to everyone, they give them soup, they feed the homeless. And as folks on, you know, the coasts both know there's been a huge homeless issue and, and Anchorage, Alaska is no different than any of the other big cities on, on the, on the Pacific side mm-hmm . And so what they do is they, they serve soup to these folks.

Well, one day a man, uh, who had a criminal record by the way. And he was a known, uh, individual in the community. He showed up, he decided to put on a pink night gown and say, well, today I'm, you know, a female and I want entry into your overnight shelter again, where only women sleep three feet away from one another. Some of which maybe the night before, you know, could have experienced sexual trauma. Uh, it, it, it happens unfortunately, wow, more often than not a hundred percent of these women are in that, in that, in that situation. So this individual shows up, he was actually bloodied and bruised and, uh, the downtown hope center director looked at him and said, my goodness, um, you know, putting aside whether or not you get entry, we, we, you need medical attention. So they actually got the guy medical attention while the reward for being nice was a discrimination complaint filed against them.

And he said, well, you didn't let me into your facility. And, uh, the, the city of Anchorage at the time looked at that and says, oh, you know, you know, that's right. We've actually got laws in the books that says you can't discriminate on the base of sexual orientation or gender identity. And, uh, uh, we're gonna help this individual in his complaint against you. And so that started, I mean, it sounds crazy, but that started litigation a couple years ago where we actually had to go get an injunction to allow a religious nonprofit, to be able to cater, uh, uh, women and not have to deal with men who wanted entry into to the facility.

That's incredible. Um,

Well, what, what what's troubling to me too, is that this is your government now. I mean, when you start, when the government sues you, that's a whole different ballgame, you know, it, it, it, when you get the weight of it, because there's, there's almost unlimited money, unlimited opportunity. And I remember when we were working in New York city, we had a pregnancy center and we had a couple frivolous lawsuits that were brought against us. But, you know, we looked in our bank account, we had like $80,000 in our bank account, you know, and they looked at that and they said, one, you know, it's one litigation and you're done. And, and I said, people don't realize that churches are out there serving and caring for people. And there are people literally looking at those ministries and saying, let's target those things and put them out of business. And I, it's hard for me to explain that to people, but you you've heard it from, you've heard it from the opposition. They, they really, not only don't, they like the church, they want the church out of business.

Well, absolutely using the same type of law. There was actually a church in Massachusetts also, um, not too long ago where, um, they passed a law that, that, uh, included basically the activities of this particular church, uh, which would make it basically illegal. Let's say the church wanted to have a, a spaghetti dinner to serve, uh, the C and open their doors, you know, are they then subject now to all of these, you know, gender identity laws and restroom usage and all of that kind of thing? Well, the position of this, uh, Massachusetts town was indeed. Yes, you are. And so we were forced to go and file a lawsuit on, on their behalf.

So I, you know, and, and again, you know, I teach people, I'm trying to teach people the constitutional limitation of government and all the things that are founding father set in place. It sounds like we've got, uh, not the constitutional limitation, but we've got an overarching government that can come after the church in, in, in a variety of ways. I mean, and that that's, what's so scary, right?

Um, well, it, it is, it is. And I know, you know, let's take a, let's take a controversial topic like vaccines, you know, ADF. Um, we are, we are involved in some of the, the, the, the OSHA private employer mandate, uh, litigation. And I, you know, one of the questions I get is, well, why in the world, would you be involved in that space? Well, first off, this ain't about the vaccine, right? This is about the government overreaching. Guess what for are private? So religious organizations, we represent some seminary, some Christian schools, also their churches that also have schools. And when you start adding up the number of teachers, all of a sudden you get to well over a hundred. Well, if OSHA can, can basically come into your backyard and be involved in your employment decision, that is a, that is a big time problem if you allow. So a lot of people look at it and say, oh, well, you know, what's the big harm. Uh, what's the big deal. Um, don't they care about health and safety. Now, time out, wait a second. You're this is the government invading upon the autonomy of the church.

Yeah. And people need to understand, I mean, a our country, our culture actually thought the church was an essential organization to everybody's Liberty. Now we're not just fighting for our protection. We're fighting because we believe that the message of the church really is part of the reason why this, this, this recreated the liberties that it has. And so if you're out there preaching and teaching the whole council of God, you are trying to love your neighbor. And here comes this group. Now that's using the government to actually silence your voice. And, you know, it troubles me when I see people who have no problem with, with conscience issues or differences of, you know, political or moral differences. Suddenly we have a group saying we're gonna make it illegal. Well, we're the kind of people want to talk about that over the fence. You know, we want to talk about that with our neighbor, learn how to dialogue with our neighbor about those things, or at least agree to disagree. We're, we're now dealing with folks who are saying, well, you're not gonna even have a voice. Um, so you were talking about the equality act. I mean, the spirit of the equality act right to the heart of that, right. I mean, that is an overarching, uh, legislation that could, could, could set the church, could put the church in the basement, if, if not on a business,

It, it, it, it really, it absolutely could. And I think, you know, it's so deceptive the name, because when you hear things like the equality act, or some of these very creative, they that are attached to certain pieces of legislation, you stop and think, well, gosh, who's, you know, what's wrong with that, boy, I don't, I don't wanna discriminate. Well, of course, it's got nothing to do with it. What it, what it does have everything to do with though, is a trampling of, of your, of your religious freedom, the, the very foundations, again, that you were just talking about of, of where this country came from. Why, why, uh, why we came to this, this new land, you know, to, to not have to deal with with those, those type issues. And I think, you know, what you saw in, in Anchorage, Alaska, um, what you see in say, women's sports.

I mean, I've got four kids myself, I've got a couple daughters, I've got one that ran across country, even in the great set of Texas where I'm calling you from right now. I mean, there's still issues here where it seems, um, common sensical to not allow, um, a, uh, uh, a high school, male athlete to run against a female high school athlete and to take away opportunities from that female. It seems sort of common sensical, if not, uh, obviously fair to allow that to be separate, but that's not what would take place if, if laws like the equality act were to come into existence. I mean, that's why we're fighting in that space as well. Um, it's really an all out war on women in some respects in, in, in some of the cases we've seen, but it's also a war on the church on the big sea church on, you know, Bible believing for Christians. If you say, if you speak truth, um, you know, that, that is, uh, in some circles, um, problematic, and they don't want to hear it and they wanna shut you down. Right. And so, um, you know, I think most folks, if they even, even pastors, uh, congregational leaders, if they really stop and think about it, a lot of 'em look at these issues as though they're political. The reality is if they look at their sermon notes from, from last Sunday, they're actually touching upon topics we're litigating right now.

Yeah. And I think that's where I go to it too. Um, you know, it's not just, like you just said, uh, these things are against women. Uh, these things are against the church, big sea, but these things are ultimately at war with the God who created the world and who morally ordered the world. I mean, that, that's what the, the war is, is against. And if, if God actually loves us and, and these things are true, then we have to speak these, even though they hit too. I mean, we're broken too. So these laws hit us too. But when you can't even say that God created male and female, when, when you can't even say that today without the, you know, punishment, um, that's, that's the war againsts God's authority, uh, of the world. You know, I, I saw another lawsuit that you guys, I, I don't know how, how deep you are in this one yet, but the, the reap lawsuit and the reason why I wanted to touch on that is you talked about euphemisms, you know, and how they cover, you know, what they're really doing. And I love what they said, reap, uh, well, maybe we have sold the wind and we are reaping the whirlwind with, with this sexual chaos and sexual confusion. But this is a group again, that kind of an equality act type of group that's coming for Christian universities. And what are they doing?

Yeah. So you have a collection of, uh, of individual plaintiff. So these are either current or former students of certain universities that were recruited by this entity called reap. That's based out in, uh, uh, Oregon. Okay. And what they are arguing is that, um, if you are a Christian university, if you want to attend, if let's say that I'm a student and, uh, you want to attend a Christian university, uh, you should not be able to obtain federal financial assistance. If that university, in fact, adheres to biblical truth on biblical sexuality, on marriage, between a man and a woman, they certain, they want to take away the right of a university quite honestly, to, to hold that viewpoint. So either capitulate, uh, on the issue or, um, you know, you lose the ability to attract students that need federal financial assistance. I think the, the Los that this lawsuit was filed back in, in April, uh, I am involved in that particular case.

It does oppose a threat, certainly to all of these Christian institutions across the United States that adhere to basic biblical truth. Um, I don't think it has any, um, legal basis. Um, but we, we continue to fight that battle. In fact, uh, just, uh, a week of, and a half ago, I was part of a three day hearing on this very, very subject. So, um, we'll have to see what happens in the coming days. I think that case should be dismissed, but it's a greatly representative of where we're at, um, both in the context of just society in general, but also the way, um, certain, you know, individuals or governmental entities want to use laws against individuals that are simply speaking true.

Well, it's really interesting. We met with, uh, pastor PO, he's a finished Bishop of the Lutheran church, and I know your international wing is working with his lawsuit in P Rossen. And, um, and I'm 50% fin. So I'm also kind of in it with him too, because my grandparents's my grandparents Homeland. And it's just, it was funny because well, funny, uh, they basically are being put on trial for their teachings on marriage and sexuality, sex, sexual practice within the confines of marriage. And they can go to jail for two years and, or even worse, I think would be the unlimited, uh, fines that they'd have to pay that it's probably BA something that would bankrupt, you know, both of them. And again, one of the, the phrases that came out is, uh, PI Rosson and who's a P politician. She said something like, well, we have Bibles in our, in our, um, uh, law libraries. I mean, are we supposed to take all those Bibles out and, you know, and throw them away? And they said, no, no, no, you can, you can leave those in our libraries and you can even read them. You just can't believe them they actually said that to them.

it is amazing. The honesty sometimes quite honestly, and, and, and government official and what they're saying. And I, you know, I, you know, your, your, your mention of Europe, I think is a good one, because if you wanna see what life may be like, all you have to do is look across the pond and see what's happening over there. Um, as you mentioned, ADF, fortunately does have an international arm and they're fighting, uh, a ton of battles over there. But in many instances, those battles they're fighting, you know, are one step worse, honestly, than, than, uh, than what we're dealing with. But, you know, if we don't stand up, if we don't speak truth, and again, um, you know, we, we can speak truth and love. Ultimately we know who wins this. I mean, we know this is Christians. And so I think that sometimes that lends the, the Bible believing Christian to suggest, well, maybe I should just be quite about it because I do know how this story written. Yes, we do. As, as, as believers in Christ, we know how this story ends, but that doesn't take away the responsibility. We have to actually speak truth, because some, for me personally, I'm sure for others, you have to hear truth. You have to understand your own depravity and, and, and the fact that you need, you know, Christ and his blood, you have to underst and those things in order to come to Christ and by being silent and not saying anything, you're not doing anything to further that. Yeah. I think it's unbiblical, frankly.

Yeah. And it is. And I also think that I also tell people, God gave it's God's gift the first amendment. I mean, it's not his saving gift. Obviously his saving gift is the person to work of Jesus and by grace alone through faith. But in this particular a culture, cuz you didn't even give it to Europe. Europe doesn't have really this first amendment undergirding protection, uh, well let's at least put it to use until the, until it's taken away because it's hard to preach the gospel when all hell is breaking loose in the culture. And the first amendment actually prevents that. Uh, really well. So, you know, I, I call them secular blasphemy laws because I think we're fighting secularism. It's a, it's a religious movement that's coming after us. But you know, people, if I said, man, you could be strung up for, um, actually disobeying the secular blasphemy law. People would think I'm talking about some crazy religious, uh, uh, place across the pond. It's it's here now.

Yeah. Think about this. You know, I just, you know, obviously I'm thinking it out from Texas, we lived in the gray city, Arizona for a while too. In, in, in my backyard of Phoenix, Arizona, there's a law in the books that prevented a, a calligrapher and an artist from being able to, um, uh, to, to cater to they, they had, uh, friends of theirs, others where they wanted to celebrate weddings with. So they wanted to create art for them. Well, Phoenix had on, on its books and several large metropolitan areas have on their books, these laws that say, look, if you're gonna be in this space, if you're create a professional, then you must create messages that you disagree with. So if a, a, a male and a male came to them and said, we want you to write this Bible verse, celebrating Dan and Johnny, you would be required.

And guess what? It's not just, it's not just monetary penalties in Phoenix. There was also a criminal provision associated with it. So a lot of people are thinking, oh, well this is just across the pond. This is elsewhere weird. No, this is in your backyard. And a lot of these laws are on your books right now. Now some of 'em are being enforced. Right. Um, but at some point, who knows. And so, you know, we we've had to, unfortunately we had to go to bat for that. We had to go all the way to Arizona Supreme court, uh, on their behalf. We did win that fortunately. But, uh, that, that story is not unique.

Well, it's a crazy law. And I, we wrote an oped on this once called why does every deli need to be kosher? You know, it's kind of the same thing. I mean, if, as long as there's another place for you to go, you can't walk in and impose, uh, onto somebody, your conscience issues onto them. And, and we're being told now, yes, you can. All right. Well, what can, what can the church do? I mean, I know you guys are a great re source. Uh, one of the things I think you do is you provide an opportunity to look at church documents to make sure that they're, they're at least, uh, fi not fireproof, but, you know, prepared what are some of the other things that churches and people can do?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, obviously you can learn more about just the work we're doing@adfbygoingtoadflegal.org, but more specific as to churches. If you go to ADF church alliance.org, uh, the church Alliance is a ministry of ADF or we're, we're trying to, uh, enable churches to be proactive if they have, um, there are certain documents, there may be like a, how are they using their facilities? We can help them with facility use agreements to make sure that it, we, it's not fireproof per se in a sense that, you know, they won't ever see the courthouse, but what we can do is best prepare and for it. So I think it's just being prudent. Um, there are lawyers actually on staff at a whose sole responsibility is to communicate with church, with churches to assist them to be proactive, look their documents, to field, phone calls from them.

Well, we really appreciate that Ryan. And if we appreciate how much you do for that, thanks for being with us today.

Thank you so much, Greg. Always a pleasure.

Thanks for tuning in today to get to know our LCR L DC work better. Check out our website at LC RL, freedom.org till next time. God bless you. Always I'm Greg Russels have a great week.

You've been listening to Liberty alert with Dr. Gregory Seltz executive director of the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in Washington, DC. This program has been brought to you by the Lutheran center for religious Liberty.