‘An accidental leader’ this is how Folawe Omikunle describes herself. Avoiding leadership right through her education, jumping into jobs because she fell in love with their cause and blind to their leadership challenges, leadership was never on her agenda. But Folawe does now accept that even if she still doesn’t think of herself as a leader, the people around her do, so “I have to accept it”.

Looking back this ‘accidental leader’ reflects on how much easier it would have been, how more confident she would have been, how she could have channelled her energies better, if there had been an ‘approach to leadership that resonated for her’ available. Then she could have “taken the blindfolds off”

Julia Middleton 0:01

Thanks for listening to the women emerging podcast. Every week we put up a new episode with insights into leadership, practical leadership, seen through the eyes of women leaders of all ages and all sectors from right across the world. Our aim is for women to be able to say, if that's leadership I'm in. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and join women emerging on our website, women emerging.org. That's women emerging.or more fabulous, free leadership content. Welcome, welcome. Welcome. Julie Middleton, here, Director of women emerging and and also a podcast host. I've decided I can call myself a podcast host now. Now that we've done 50. This is the 50s podcast episode. The expedition came to an end last week in Bellagio. And last week, I asked Sarah and Anna to try and give you a sense of what had happened over the sort of miraculous four days that we all spent together in an extraordinary place. This week, I want to do one more episode that sort of completes this transition. Because the first 50 episodes were very much about following the expedition following the 24 women who were going out into the world to find an approach to leadership that resonates with women. And I think we're now transitioning to the next phase, where the next 50 episodes will be about what we learnt. And what we know. And what we can see in this approach to leadership that resonates with women. And to sort of dig a well, well, W E L L in the middle of our village and our town or our city or whatever, wherever we are a well, that we as women leaders can meet around a well that we can draw from that we can replenish at, and and also contribute to adding our stories and our insights about leadership. So in this transition from the first 50 episodes, no doubt, to the second 50 episodes. I just wanted to that. So these two episodes last week and this week are about that transition. And and this this week's is sort of why did we feel in Bellagio that we were doing something really very, very important. And the best way to illustrate the answer of that is to talk to Phil Lowry, and talk to Phil our way about her own journey as a leader and find out why she thinks that that journey would have been easier, better, more satisfying, less cluttered, if there had been a well available from which to draw from. Malawi, as we went through the four days in Bellagio, it became clearer and clearer and clearer, I think, to all of us that this was important. And that though there was beautiful things going on between all of us and building of a group, there was also a serious piece of work going on, which was to produce an approach to leadership that resonates with women. And that was immensely motivating. I think we can sort of nearly see it. But I thought it would be really interesting if we if you would allow me for Lowry to talk through to illustrate why we think this approach is so important with you, if you if you've talked us through the story, the journey of your leadership, and at what points would it have been helpful to have an approach to leadership that resonates with women? I think it would help a lot.

Unknown Speaker 4:13

Julia, you know, I, you know, I think it's important to mention one something I said to someone when I left Bellagio, you know, with all the women, if you if you Daisy go and I remember saying if I had had an experience like this, or if I had, you know this sort of insight into my own leadership or when I was about to start to you know, whatever, you know, leadership, you know, is would have been or would have been less afraid I'd be more confident that would have been more authentic. You know, when I reflect on my leadership journey, I think as far back as my school days and then think about when I was in secondary school, and when I would literally run it way from any leadership position. So talk about being a school prefect and we had prefects, you know, who that will cut across, like different areas talk about being like the class captain and those sort of like positions, like, I just had no interest whatsoever. And it wasn't that, you know, now that I think about it, and, you know, I reflect on it, it wasn't that I would have been a bad leader or you know, or not being able to do but it just didn't feel like me. Anything feels like me, Julia, because a lot of the examples of leadership that I'd seen just didn't look like what I could do you know, how I could show what I could do. So it didn't match my personality. The examples of the people that I saw in those positions and how they showed showed up, just didn't look like me at all. Well, this was, so this was across my school in Benin Republic. So I went to primary and secondary school, I started off in Nigeria, in a wind states, and then relocated during the Military Region to Benin Republic, where I then went to an international school of Bonaire, which, and it was the day that I came to Nigeria, and then went to an only girls school and completed my secondary education in that school. Vivian Paola Memorial college for girls in Lagos State threw out, you know, that my my journey of going to school, I had several opportunities to have, you know, taken leadership positions, but I just refused to, I will literally hide, where I remember, you know, a particular day where, you know, manifestos were being shared, people were campaigning, and you know, I'm trying, I will, I literally will hide in the back of the school so that nobody would, you know, points me or even suggest me for any position, because typically, they would sort of like position high flying students above average students, you know, to consider those like, leadership positions. But so I didn't even want any teacher, or any of my seniors to sort of suggest me or to nominate me for anything, so I will run away. But even when I went on to university, Julia, I still have no interest whatsoever, there were lots of like, positions where I could have been like a student leader, where I could have been in charge of my poster or my goal, where I could have done more in my departments and faculty. And, you know, there were all of those different opportunities to lead, but I still shied away from it, I still just wasn't interested. It just didn't feel like me. When I think about even to date, when people sort of like this, you know, talk about leadership, or when people described me as a leader, I don't think I've ever described myself as a leader, like, I wouldn't open my mouth and say, you know, oh, I'm a leader. And this is what I, you know, this is what I am doing, or this is how I been a leader, think I'm just, I'm simply a woman, and I'm a human being that is happiest, and that feels most fulfilled. When I leave places and situations and things better than I found it. I just want to play a role where I leave the world better than I then I found it and that I left it. So I sort of say that I'm an accidental leader, just given the journey that I've had.

Julia Middleton 8:23

You know, there's people who've said to me over the years, that you can't make yourself a leader, you can't claim yourself to be a leader. But the do you do have to accept it when all the people around you tell you that your leader? They do around you

Unknown Speaker 8:42

following Yes, yes. Julia. And I just accept it when they say that, you know, but it's just doing this thing that, you know, just makes me happy and makes me feel alive and makes me you know, just fulfilled makes me feel satisfied being in this world. And it's just doing, you know, so I take it accept it, and I'm learning to, you know, to accept when, because I was struggle before now, but uh, you know, I accepted when, when described as a leader, but I just wouldn't, it's not the first word that will come to my mind when I have to describe myself, you know, but I'd say well, I stepped into leadership suddently when I think about it, sort of was thrust into into leadership. And I started off my career working in a school, my employer said to me then was I'm tired of having people who come here and tell us this is how it's done in this school and in that school, you know, we just want your freshness and we want your fresh mind. And I thought my fresh mind has got nothing there. That that that is about running the school and managing the school and so I'd say expose the sort of like, you know, when I think about this, and you know, just having the conversation that's one of the things experiences that I remember very vividly. And I was scheduled here, you know, I was scared of failing, I was scared, you know, have been figured out that you know, this woman actually, you know, doesn't I mean this lady because I was I was, you know? She was as a fraud. Yes, exactly, exactly like he does. So it looks like can they tell that I don't know, anything that I talked about? You know, so it was it was really, it was really tough, where it's almost like someone who was like, thrown in the water, you know, deep end, drowning, while you're you can't swim, but you're just like, and I can't swim, Julia, you know, but, you know, it's just like you're flapping your hands and just trying to find your way. And that was how, you know, that experience and felt like the second organisation that I went on to do that first experience, it really the reason why I went on there was because of their vision. And their vision said, One day, all children in Nigeria will have access to qualitative education that I wouldn't forget that I didn't even read the job description or anything like that. Again, that was another exposure into leadership where I had to deal with a number of experience, women who were on Oahu on the board, you know, at the school, when I was a school administrator really was just the parents, it was much easier to like, build relationships with them. Of course, there were some difficult ones. But then in this one, they were, you know, there were board members, Sunday members, you know, who had ideas on how they started, you know, the association that I was working with, they were, you know, they had the eagle, you know, that needed to be stroked, you know, they had needs that they had motivation. So being part of the decision that I needed to learn, I had no idea. Again, what it was that I was doing, like struggled, I remember, there was one time, you know, where I just cried, and there was no one to sort of like that to or talk to about, like our downs and to my mother about it. And I'll talk to my to my aunties about it, you know, I just didn't feel comfortable enough to share because I thought it would look like it would then reflect on me, it's been a bad leader, if I talked about it to like other colleagues or other people. So I sort of like just kept it to myself. This is like some of the, like, the clear ideas that I have, in terms of the early days of my leadership was having a blindfold on. And that's the way that I can describe it, having a blindfold on, because I think about like the blindfold games that one had to play when we're growing up. And whilst you're like trying to navigate the room to like, catch, you know, the treasurer's or whether the people that you need to pick and sort of heat, while you're doing that, you sometimes you get somebody who is like telling you where to go, and what direction while you have the blindfold on. But I think about the journey that I've been through Julia, where I've had the blindfold on, and then I didn't have anyone to sort of like, give me some type of like, navigating to or had told me like, you know, what, sort of like guidelines and like direct shot. And so in many ways, in different aspects of my leadership, I struggled, like literally just like had to learn on the job, to the experiences to like some really difficult experiences, you know, I had to learn and I had to just figure out, you know, things as I went on,

I think that blindfold thing is fascinating. If this is what I'm hearing is that the while you're at school, you said I'm not a leader, all the way through education. I'm not a leader for whatever reasons. You didn't. And, and I, and I suspect, you would say to the your young self now. Say, Yes, I'll do leadership, get get into the habit of doing it. Learn the lessons early. And yes. And I deeply believe that, you know, if you mess up when you're very young, you forgive yourself much more quickly than when you mess up later on. But anyhow, you would say, learn to be a leader, right? From the moment you can and keep going. Then you went into work. And you you, you went into leadership because you believed in the purpose, but you hadn't really thought through what leadership meant yes. And how to be a leader but more importantly, to be your kind of leader. Exactly. So if you have to learn all of this, when the stakes are high, and you're in a big job, and everybody is watching you and the mistakes that you make, you won't suffer from really but the people who work for you will suffer from them or yes or yes And then learning them then then you have some really miserable moments because you mess up. And blindfolded analogy is so powerful. It's, it's a, it's a most beautiful analogy. So that's why you think it's so important to have an approach to leadership that resonates with women, because that then draws women into leadership. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Am I right?

Yes. Julia, Julia, like when I think about this, like, and I think about what, you know, the women emerging expedition is working on and trying to do, like I said to you, some days after the expedition at Bellagio, you know, I was I was debriefing and sort of like reflecting with a friend. And I said, How much so if I'd had just even a stint of this insight, this sort of like ideas or thoughts about how to approach leadership, or, you know, what leadership looks like? Or what leadership even is, I try thought my life would have been much easier. You know, I want to say much easier. Of course, like, I definitely think that the challenges have expanded me and grown me, but I feel like, you know, I could have also channelled that growth or whatever into some other areas, like there were things that I didn't need to experience. But if I had just understood, you know, an approach to leadership, if I understood not in the way, like, of course, I Googled resources, Julia, like, whenever things happen, like are Google's things to sort of say, how do you deal with this? Or how do you do deal with that? How do you show up as a leader, you know, they will tell you like ABC and XYZ, and still to the same experience that I had, many years ago, when I was a teenage girl, you know, who was just in school, it still just didn't feel like me, it felt like I had to, you know, like, play a role or not Napoli, like, BF Dawn actress, it just didn't feel natural, it didn't feel organic. The thing with an approach to leadership is, you don't have to be anybody else. Like, that's what it says. It's just saying, just be the human being that you are, who wants to who is, you know, connected to your sense of core, whatever it is, that is driving you that is pushing you, but look at all these different, like, you know, like filaments, or these different pillars, as I might want to call them that can that you can tap into that already exists within you and around you to navigate your way to guide you through leadership. When I think about that, Julia, like, for me, that would have made my life easier. And I think about many other women. I'm one of maybe 100 People who accidentally stumbled into leadership, and sort of stayed on and persevered for whatever reason, and will whatsoever resist, but surely are the many women who have thought, okay, yeah, let me get into it. And similar to the way that I got into it, but they got into it started to just like, again, with a blindfold on, they're trying to find their way. And at some point, they run out of energy, and they run out of oxygen. And they're like, you know, what, actually, this is a for me, and I'm done. You know, so I definitely think that the approach to leadership that resonates to a woman, the piece of work that is being built is one that would help guide women, people to really understand that leadership exists in every bin. And literally, this is how you can not show it, this is how you can live into it. This is how you can tap into it. And so I think that is what the expedition really has done for for for me, and I'm just hoping you know, that many women get a chance and I can't wait for this, you know, the hope is to come together, I have a chance to have been part of it, like listening to the relatable experiences, listening to how storytelling was used to, to sort of like, you know, describe illustrates leadership, the metaphor, the art, the music, like the different possible channels to understand how to approach leadership or to understand the approach to leadership. Yeah,

are you saying you never went on any leadership courses at all during your career?

So I went to let me think about some of the, so if there was anything actually, Julia might have attended like a few programmes, right? But then, like, these things would tell you things like, this is what you need to do. Like it was very prescriptive, like, you know, you need to be when it comes to like dealing with people or managing people. Like you need really been been a leader, you need to be firm, you need to be this, you need to have all these different rules, like you need to, like it was all these different things around what to do. And in building, you know, relationships with external stakeholders, like, you know, this has to happen like you need, it just didn't feel like something that I could do, because it would look like I was just pretending or acting. So I did attend like a few, like, did get some coaching sessions, you know, and to be honest, like, the reason why I mean, I stopped doing that also was because it just didn't feel like he was meeting my needs, got something about how, like, the work that, you know, we're coming up with feels different is how it's using different channels, like it's using different ways to illustrates what leads like, what leadership is, it's bringing in, you know, like the use of art creativity, to sort of like, you know, unravel, like this mystery of leadership and what it is in a way that even if you're in a village, in SoHo in Nigeria, or for new or rare in the world, you know, whether you're in a corporate, you know, institution, or whether you're in a temple, or whatever it is, it's something you've, there's something relatable to how we're sort of like putting this word out there, Julia. And what it then makes me think about is if I had an opportunity, and a chance to experience anything like this, or to have a book or to watch a film, or to hear a story, where leadership was been sort of, like, introduced to me, where I was being sort of, like, you know, invited into leadership through any of those manners, I will be more confident about the chance and I'll be more excited about the opportunity to go into leadership. I would say that, you know, what, if this is what leadership is taught me in, and I'm gay, if I had a stint of that kind of experience opportunity, Julia.

So we're taking the blindfold off.

Oh, absolutely.

Thank you so much filler with the blindfold analogy is going to stick with me big time. So I promise now that we will stop talking about the ledger, there is nothing more irritating, to be honest, I think, than hearing all the stories about a party that you weren't at. So please forgive me these two episodes, and I promise next week to move on. But I did just want to make, you know, Mark this transition. One of the things I've been thinking about is, why was the atmosphere so magical? at Bellagio? I think that in itself has made me think a lot about leadership. You know, you could say that this was the end of a zoomed journey. For over a year, we had been 24 Women who who talk to each other very, very regularly over 12 months. So maybe it was always going to be a spectacular, then again, it could have produced the opposite, I suppose, a clash, or even just a sort of rather miserable disappointment, but it didn't produce either that it produced the most glorious. I can't find the word sense of completeness, and joy and fulfilment, as well as working hard on a task. So where did all of that come from? I don't know. You know, some people have said about the podcast that I should introduce the speakers on the podcast and see what they do. And I just don't want to do that. And the truth is, we didn't do that on the expedition either. We didn't spend ages telling each other what our job titles were. We sort of legitimised each other's presence on the expedition, by the quality of what we said, rather than the swanky Enos of our business cards. I do think that there is a value in in not making the introductions to people all about what their job title is. And I think that has been a bit of a secret discovered through the expedition. I think going back, I think that some of the joy came from right from the start, because we had chosen 24 Women who hadn't already made their minds up and were curious it interested and wanted to find the solutions. They wanted to be challenged, they wanted to hear different voices that produced a particular atmosphere and culture on the expedition. I think the other thing that's worth seeing is that all 24 women, one of the conditions of being on the expedition is that they spoke more than one language. And I do think that that means that people's brains are wired up differently. They're more tolerant of each other's struggles to express themselves. They're more aware of the nuance and the and the wickedness of language, in expressing things. And I think that has been a very important part of us coming together. The truth is that, yes, it was me who who chose the 24 women ultimately, I would argue a futures themselves, but yes, it was me. And I suppose, you know, there's one thing I can cope with almost everything in life except pomposity. And pomposity is something that terrifies me in French. It's pom pom. It's an even worse word. And I suspect that none of the women who are on the expedition, were pompous. Right through the few days that we were together, you know, the real world was out there. And we were sharing it one woman got a pretty bad diagnosis on her mother's health. Other women had huge challenges, sort of organising and reorganising childcare. There wasn't an ignoring of what was going on. i To be honest, I had quite a lot of tough family issues during the few days and, and leant on other members of the expedition enormously to help me through the the grim moments that weren't about what we were doing at Bellagio they were about what was happening hundreds of miles away that I couldn't have much impact on. But you know, what we we were cut off for the world from the world but not cut off from the world and helping each other as we progressed. What else had an enormous impact actually, I think one of them was that before we got to Bellagio, we had a couple of days where everybody was sort of gathering flying in and gathering and arriving at lots of different times. And that was that was very important. I think if you all sort of hit each other a big groups or wham hits each other, I think that can that can produce a sort of, I don't know, some sort of shock of sort of backing off the fact that we all sort of arrived slowly, and and sort of settled in slowly. That felt very important. And during that period, we were cooking for each other. That that was absolutely crucial. And there were some people who were really beautiful cooks, and it was a joy following their instructions and clearing up and laying the table and an all playing that our

parts.

So we gathered together slowly. What else from this ramble? With me, it's very important to say bladder is of course an utterly beautiful place. It's on Lake Como. It's the most beautiful palace. It's where the Alps meet the lake. It was stunning, whether whether being you know, I'm British weather matters a lot. But it matters to all of us. The sun was out, the sun was shining on us and the Sun. The Sun sent us warmth and energy. And that was terribly important. But the place was utterly beautiful. I think we then we definitely were very clever at having lots of different ways to communicate with each other. Some extraordinary people danced, some extraordinary people did skits. I can't think of another word from it. Some extraordinary people played violins and pianos. There were some wonderful storytellers, all the way through the worlds a real sense of the beauty of expressing yourself in lots of different ways that suited lots of different people. And and particularly also, I suppose, suited lots of different generations. We were a real mixture of generations the youngest person on the expeditions 24 probably actually 25 By now, but 24 and the oldest person on the expedition was me at 64. In fact, that's a funny story on that one. I think the apart from cooking with each other, we also shopped together, we went and brought the latest ingredients from the local supermarket in the days before we got to actual Bellagio. And then there was this wonderful sort of potions and lotions, beautiful shop just next to where we were staying with a lady called Francesca, who ran it. And everybody was endlessly going in there and buying the latest potion or lotion, or teas, or salts, or all kinds of different things. I wandered in there with some others on a particular day. And it was wonderful because somebody said to Francesca, what what should we buy for Julia Francesca turned to me and said, We have a very good anti ageing cream. Then the look of horror came across her face. sterics from me, everybody looked very uncomfortable. I thought it was terribly funny. But it was weird being the oldest person in a group. I've never experienced that before. And with that, of course, comes moments, I hope of wisdom, but also moments of feeling irrelevant, or past or actually quite frightened. So so that was very interesting. The mixture of ages hugely helped us. There was there was no difference in wisdom. across the ages, every age had huge wisdom, the worst, some pretty tough moments when we got into real disagreements, which I am absolutely sure was part of the magic and the dynamic, even though they feel even with hindsight, pretty tough. And the last one I would add, again, is that we didn't have a tight plan. There weren't milestones and KPIs. We knew where we wanted to get to. One of the members of the expedition has written a lovely poem about all the different people. And she says to me, that she remembers my focus. So I was definitely focused all the time that we had to achieve what we had come together to achieve as well as enjoy being together and learn from each other, we had to produce an approach to leadership that resonates with women. So I was pretty focused, but not through milestones, and a big plan. I know that caused a lot of difficulty for some women who would much prefer something tighter. But I would still say that the lack of a tight plan was part of the magic. Anyhow. Bellagio was dramatic, it produced a dramatic end the expedition, it produced a really powerful transition to this next phase, this next set of 50 episodes of this podcast that will be about what this approach is so that all of you can say if that's leadership I'm in. And it's worth remembering PhilaU is words, isn't it? She said that if we if she had had this approach, she would have been less afraid, more confidence and found life much, much easier. And actually, she used those words today and she I would have been able to challenge my energy into other areas. If I had had this approach, she said this while she her hands were playing with a piece of playdough because at Bellagio, we all had playdough on our tables and made beautiful Play Doh. It was lovely seeing fell away had still got a piece of playdough that she was playing with us with her hands. Anyhow, transition over. I won't carry on talking about a party that not everybody was at next week, we start the serious business of the next episodes where we share the insights, lots of love.

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