The typical RFP process for hiring PR and communications firms produces sub-optimal outcomes for all parties. (That's the polite way of saying it's really bad.)

We believe it can be done better, but it will take increased transparency and trust between organizations and agencies.

In this episode, Abbie and Adrian discuss how the traditional RFP has become a barrier that stifles creativity. They provide insights to reshape the way RFPs are perceived and executed, advocating for a more collaborative and open process that benefits both parties.

Abbie shares her firsthand experiences with various proposals, noting the importance of well-structured RFPs that allow for meaningful comparisons. Adrian emphasizes that organizations should be clear about their needs and budget to foster a productive dialogue, ultimately leading to better outcomes for all involved.

Read the transcript and notes for this episode on our website.

Key Takeaways

• The RFP process is a common yet often unsatisfactory method for hiring PR firms, as it can limit creativity and effectiveness.
• Organizations must clearly outline their needs in an RFP, as unclear requests lead to poor responses and miscommunication.
• Trust is essential in the RFP process; both clients and agencies should be transparent about their expectations and capabilities.
• Budget parameters should be discussed upfront to ensure agencies can provide realistic and feasible proposals that meet client needs.
• Pre-RFP conversations can enhance the quality of the proposals received by allowing agencies to ask clarifying questions.
• Agencies should not be asked to provide free ideas, strategies, or plans during the RFP process; this is unethical and counterproductive.

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Need to hire a PR firm?

We demystify the process and give you some helpful advice in Episode 19: "How to Hire a Public Relations Agency in Arizona: Insider Tips for Executives and Marketing Directors."

Credits

Copper State of Mind, hosted by Abbie Fink and Dr. Adrian McIntyre, is brought to you by HMA Public Relations, a full-service public relations firm in Phoenix, AZ.

The show is recorded and produced by the team at Speed of Story, a strategic communications consultancy for PR agencies and marketing firms, and distributed by PHX.fm, the leading independent B2B podcast network in Arizona.

If you like this podcast, you might also enjoy PRGN Presents: PR News & Views from the Public Relations Global Network, featuring conversations about strategic communications, marketing, and PR from PRGN, "the world’s local public relations agency.”

To RFP or not to RFP? That is the question. It's an existential question at some level. I mean, we're not doing Shakespeare, we're doing business. But for organizations that need to hire agencies for communications or creative services, the RFP is the tried and tested method for doing that. And for agencies that want to sell their best thinking and do their best work for their clients, the RFP is often an annoyance, a barrier, and something that constrains them from doing their best work. So is there a way to think differently and better about the request for proposals? Abbie, what's on your mind?

Well, what's on my mind is I'm in the midst of multiple responses right now, which is a fantastic problem to have, right, that there's a lot of opportunity out there, a lot of organizations that are seeking public relations services. And it's top of mind right now.

When I look at the various documents that I've received and how different they all are, but all are looking for, can you do this work for us at the end of the day? I've also just issued one for a nonprofit that I'm involved with.

And coming to it from that side of the equation was a real interesting practice to what annoys me when I get them. And here I'm trying to do the same thing to someone else.

So it's not a perfect science for sure, but I thought it was worth talking a little bit about the request for proposals, because, again, they're a necessary evil, I believe. I think it is a way for organizations that are seeking our services to encapsulate what they're looking for.

And if they are well written and ask for good information, then what they get back from the proposing agency allows them to compare apples to apples when they're, when they're doing that.

So maybe because it's top of mind right now, I thought, well, let's chat a little bit about, you know, what it is, why we do it, do we want them, is there a better way? And see where that takes us?

Let's start with the optimum ideal state, the reason why this should work. And I think you said it well. The organization wants to solve a problem, and they need to get the best possible solution and preferably at the best possible price. They need to make sure that the people who are presenting possible answers to their questions and their problems are qualified, can do what they say they can do, have a track record and so on. But they also need to really specify what exactly the their needs are. And that in and of itself is where I think a lot of the problems begin. Because essentially the RFP is coming from an organization that has a pain but they are self-diagnosed. They've gone on Dr. Google and said, "my hip hurts." And Dr. Google has told them, "well, you need to take," I don't know, "extract of beef liver." Some random thing.

And call me in the morning, right?

And they're like "okay, I know what I need now." And so then they write an RFP for extract of beef liver, not an RFP for "my hip hurts." You see what I'm saying? They're framing the solution they want, and that can actually lead to all kinds of problems. What are your thoughts about this, first of all, just the way I'm setting this up?

Well, that is exactly right. They're thinking about the end result more than the process of getting there. And so if we relate it to the public relations services. And so why do you think right now you need public relations? Like what is it about that's happening in your organization, what's happening in your industry that says we think bringing in outside public relations council will be a benefit to us to get the responses that you want back from the agencies. You really need to help them understand the situation. What is going on in your organization, what is going on in your industry that is leading you to believe outside support is going to help you get from point A to point B?

The toughest thing that we have when we get an RFP is, and I understand it on some level, but that the requesting organization is hesitant to share a lot of information at that particular point and whether that's because they consider it proprietary or they're afraid what we might do with it if we know that they've got this problem, but if we don't understand completely what it is you're looking for or more importantly why you think you need it, it's very difficult for us to give you any sort of response.

And let's remember that almost always we don't know you yet. You know, we are on a list and you've sent out your blanket email to how many ever firms you think you need to. And we're hearing about this organization and your needs for the very first time when we open up that document and there's no way that we can adequately or accurately tell you what you need at that particular stage of the game. And so the more information that you share and the more willing you are to provide information, the much improved Chances you get of actually getting what you need at the moment that the RFP is being written.

I think we should underline something here, which is this coyness, this hesitancy to be fully open and transparent must, if we're being empathetic about it, it must be coming from a place of distrust. Maybe justifiably so. Maybe the organization or even the individual person overseeing this competitive bidding process, which is essentially what this is, has been burned in the past. Or maybe they feel their job is at risk if they make the wrong decision.

So they want to make sure to somehow stay in control and not get taken advantage of, not give away too much information. But this leads to some real fundamental problems because you can't tell people what you need and how much you can spend to get it. They can't tell you what they're going to do for this black box budget of yours.

It's a little bit like you want to go out on a date, and let's say you have the person you're going out with, that part is solved, Although that would be an interesting counterpoint here. But you say, I want to go out to a restaurant. So you pick up your device of choice and your app of choice and you say, "I want to eat."

The app says, "Great. What kind of food do you like?"

"I'm not telling you."

"Okay, well, how many of you are going to be at dinner?"

"That's my secret."

"Well, okay. How much do you want to spend?"

I'm sorry, that's ... how could you possibly get a recommendation that's going to lead to the evening you really want, which is an enjoyable time in the company of this person, eating some food you both enjoy, at a price that you can live with. Maybe it's a stretch for you, but it was a special evening, right? If you don't give any information, you can't get what you want. So there's that.

Now, from the agency side, I think you also underlined the real fundamental issue here. You're better at some things than other things. Your firm has a specific set of capabilities. You are specialized in some areas more than others. And if you're getting a very generalized request for services, you can't even tell if this is going to be right for you in the sense of can we do this or not? So you're going to produce all kinds of, well, we are the award winning this and that. Well, that may not even be relevant because you're not addressing the core problem. So there's many more things we're going to talk about. But let's just start with this issue of trust. What needs to change on both sides to fix that disconnect?

Right. Well, and your analogy is 100% correct.

And because we can give you the fast food version of your date, or we can give you the white tablecloth, tuxedo version of your date, you just need to help, you know, put some guardrails around what you're asking for.

But the trust issue is, you know, and what we believe wholeheartedly when we are, you know, brought into an organization is we are part of your team and we have to gain your trust. There's no doubt about it. You're not just going to open everything up to us simply because we tell you we can do it.

You need to understand that we get it. And one of the things that I, when I have the opportunity to have a conversation with a prospective client prior to responding is up front.

I talk about the respect for the process and our confidentiality, our belief in confidentiality and that what you share with me at this particular point in the process is confidential. I am happy if you need me to sign a non disclosure agreement so that you have, you know, my signature on a document that says I won't share. But our reputation and I, and I'm talking about my company, but I'm also talking about our industry. Our reputation is based on the fact that we hold that information and confidence and that we do not and will not share until we are given permission to do so.

So at that initial stage, that has to be part of what you're looking for in your, in your partner is their, of this and their belief in confidentiality. You do not have to tell me every single thing that's happening in your organization and every single challenge that you're facing.

But you do need to give me some context as to why you believe you need these services. Conversely, you can also engage with an agency that has nothing to do with a, with the specific project. And we are building up our brand reputation.

We have a new CEO and we want to create a leadership path to raise that individual's profile in the marketplace. Competition has increased for the services that we provide and we believe strongly in, you know, raising our awareness through media relations.

Our social media has been, you know, stagnant for months. We need someone that can come in and help energize, right? Just give some ideas and some feedback. We will provide you with a much better response. You should expect that anybody that responds to you, knows how to do the work.

Let's just even the playing field and say, we wouldn't be giving you something if we didn't know how to do this. What you want to be looking for is do we know how to do it in a way that makes sense for your organization? It's also not necessarily important.

And whether that's on your side or our side, if we've ever done it within this particular industry before, what you should be thinking about is, do we understand the how we can learn the what of your organization? What you really want to make sure is that you are having a partner that knows how to do what it is you're looking for them to do.

So I may not have experience specifically in your industry, but I have experience doing the work. I can learn your industry. And that may be a deciding point when you're putting your RFP together.

Is how important is it that I know you and your business? Or how important do I know my business? And can I put that in a relevant way for what you're doing?

So that concept of trust is one that has to start from that initial conversation and that you have to know that the agency will keep that information and confidence throughout the process and whether or not they're successful or not in getting the work, that remains confidential. There's nothing that gets discussed that gets put out there before, during, or after until permission has been granted to do so.

Yeah, it's a really great point. And I think of all of the firms that might be responding to RFPs for different issues, whether it's design or marketing services or ad campaigns or digital, you know, SEO, pay per click, you know, all the things, right? All the different things. You ought to expect that your PR and communications firms are the ones that understand this issue more than any of the others. And I'm not disparaging any of the others. They're all professionals in their field. But your outside PR counsel is for sure going to be the ones who understand the stakes of what gets out and what doesn't, and the tone and the message and the timing and everything else. So at the very least, we could say you should relax about that part with regard to your PR / comms agency search process.

Now, you mentioned something interesting here, and that is having a conversation prior. And I have to say this is the thing where I think there's a huge opportunity to make one simple change that could free up a lot of these issues and stop them from preventing what you want. There are many agencies who have come to the point now where they will simply say, as a matter of policy, we don't do blind RFPs. We would need to talk first, preferably with a decision maker who understands the full scope of this. And for many contracting organizations, they want to prevent that from happening. They want to protect the decision maker. They don't want to let you know who it is because, you know, you might, I don't know, behave badly.

You might know them, you might have a relationship already.

Which again, in a world of perfect transparency, should be disclosed if that's the case. So if you go all the way through the process and then realize as you get to the very end, oh my gosh, we have a conflict of interest here because that's my brother in law.

Right.

That's an extreme case. But many contracting organizations specifically say, we will not let you talk to us before you submit your stuff.

You need to understand that there are a lot of the best agencies out there who are now going to say, "well, then we're not doing your thing."

You have these kind of conversations when you can talk a little bit from the agency side about what you're looking for, because you are also qualifying the prospect at this point in time. So give those of our audience who are on the client side, who are looking to hire outside counsel some insight into what you're looking for in those initial conversations, if you can have them.

Sure. And you're 100% correct that I know some extremely qualified and very creative agencies that will just flat out refuse to, if there is not an opportunity for a conversation. And the conversation that I want to have is most often clarifying content that you've put into the RFP. Ideally, the conversation happens before an RFP has been issued, if that's possible. And I just went through this experience recently where the prospect had their shortlist.

They scheduled a 20-minute meeting with those individuals one on one, which was a fabulous opportunity for them to ask them questions. Very generally speaking, do you have experience, you know, what do you know about us? That type of thing gave me the exact same questions to ask them. You know, why are you seeking out an agency now? What, what do you like? What don't you like?

What could you, you know, if you could create a perfect relationship, you know, some of these kinds of things. It also gave me a chance to get to know them a little bit. Like, do I feel like there'd be good rapport between us?

Did we hit it off in this conversation? Was there something about what we were discussing that really resonated Conversely, maybe not. Like, maybe we end up saying, "you know what, it's not for us." And then we don't waste anybody's time. I mean, it takes a long time to put a response together. Worth it to do it. Absolutely, in my view, but that's a lot. It takes a lot of time to put together a good response.

So if it is possible at any point along the way, if you are considering issuing an RFP and you can shortlist, you know, pick your top X number of agencies that you want to participate, schedule an opportunity for a conversation. I'm not opposed to doing it as a group either.

You know, if I know who my colleagues are, I suspect I know who's going to respond and who's not, because I know what they all do. There's no problem in being in there. We're all asking the same questions, we all have the same thinking.

So if you only have to share it once across, you know, 10 of us in the room, fantastic. Don't read the RFP to me, though. Don't read what you've written and then tell me that you've had this, you know, let's have a dialogue.

You asked for, you know, our experience. Tell me a little bit specifically about what you're looking for. Like, let's really make this this valuable.

And if, if you cannot do that, if that is really outside of the. The plan that you have, at least make yourself available.

The, the entity that is going to be using the service, the marketing department, the graphic design team, video team, make them available to help answer the questions if you require them in writing. Yes, use a procurement officer if that's how your company is structured.

They understand the process, they know how to buy goods and services, no problem. But have the team that's going to be using these services in the room.

When you're answering those questions, let them talk in the language that we understand. You will get so much better responses when you give all of us this chance to do that. And you allow us as the agency to really make a educated decision on whether or not this is the right time for us to submit a response, because it's not. There's so many factors that go into it and we want to make sure that we are giving it our absolute best.

And the more that you can provide information to help us know that in advance, the better we can respond. And I think on your end makes your decision making much more streamlined when you're getting what you want at that initial stage.

It's really good. There's a couple of things in there I just want to pull out and I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of the procurement officer too far, but I do want to circle back and talk about who is overseeing the process.

What is their experience in buying this type of service as opposed to the hard goods and the, you know, the recurring service contracts for janitorial and things of that nature. Because what you're buying here is a fundamentally different thing. But let's put a pin in that. Maybe we'll end with that.

What you said is so important. If you're not giving agencies the ability to select themselves out based on understanding the criteria and determining it's not a good fit for them, you're doing both of you a disservice. It's like we say in copywriting, you need to write this in such a way that the people for whom it's intended are compelled to respond and the people for whom it's not a good fit are repelled by it. Your RFP should not be, you know, to use a fishing metaphor -- we're into metaphors here in this episode -- you don't want to have the biggest possible dragnet that you're going to try to sweep through the entire ocean to pull out some random, specialized fish. You're going to get so much dreck and drudge and plastic and garbage. It's just not useful for anyone. If you know what you want, understand that. Use the right type of bait, the right pole, and go to the right pond to fish for that. So the metaphor scan multiply here.

But that's another episode. How many metaphors can we put into...

How many metaphors can we use for selling creative services? Here's what I would like contracting organizations to understand that all your professional partners are going to be asking themselves. I have the privilege of doing some work with Blair Enns and Win Without Pitching, and this is something we talk explicitly about in the qualifying conversation.

Organizations, you need to know that the agencies are going to going to want to understand if this is a fit or not and that they're going to be asking themselves some basic questions which anyone who's in sales will already understand. Generally we refer to as BANT, some version of Budget, Authority, Need, Timeline. If you can't tell them up front, this is what we think we need, here's how we're going to make the decision. That's the authority part. Here's our timeline, not only for the decision making process, but for the project and here's the budget that we have allocated for this. They can't possibly know if this is a good fit or not.

In addition to all the things that you mentioned about culture and you know, people dynamics and would we be good partners, can we vibe with each other, all that kind of stuff, you also gave me a really interesting idea. I don't know if it's a good one or not. I'll put it out there. Ideas are a dime a dozen. Good ones are a dime a piece. Another, not very much.

But issue a pre-RFP and it doesn't have to even be that you have a shortlist. You could send out a broad communication saying we are going to be issuing an RFP for XYZ. Keep it at a high level if you want. What do you think we should include in this RFP? Create a kind of collaborative process in designing the RFP.

Sometimes you can do this one on one. I have a former client who described to me a situation where they had a great relationship with the organization. They weren't a shoe-in by any means to get the next piece of work, but they had established such trust that they were able to just sit down side by side and say, look, here's what you need to be putting in there. Here are the budget items you probably haven't even thought of that you should add in. Here's some of the competencies that you're going to need.

Now of course the agency's going to steer them a little bit in the direction of these are the things we can do because these are our expertise, but they're also ethical and they're gonna tell you what you need, no matter if we can provide it or not. So to the extent you can co create or at least collaborate, for God's sakes, don't just go looking for an RFP template, cut and paste, mix the thing together, boilerplate. That's gonna take you into all kinds of troublesome territory, things that you don't need.

Well, and what you get back is your, is the templated boilerplate response, and that doesn't help you and it doesn't help you make a decision.

And you know, there's a couple things here too that you know, there's what is also referred to as an RFQ, a Request For Qualifications. So that's, you know, HMA Public Relations is experienced in the following things. Here's a little bit about our team and you know, yes, we are qualified because we can do this work Great. Then you can decide if I can get the rest of the information.

But the B of your BANT was so important to me, the budget. And that's the one item that I think the prospective client is always hesitant to share their budget parameters. And I understand it from their perspective because if they tell me they have $10,000 a month, then I'm going to write a proposal that's $10,000 a month. But what you don't want is me writing you a proposal for $10,000 a month when all you have is $2,000. And now there is no way that we can do the work. But that's not to say if you told me up front we have a $2,000 a month budget, that I'm going to automatically say no. I'll rethink what I'm going to do for you. Our time is how we, you know, we sell our services. It's our, you know, there's a lot of ways we come up with it.

So you don't have to be 100% specific, but you do have to give some parameters or you should give some parameters. You want to get back from the agency something that is valuable and doable within the budget that you are allocating.

And it is very difficult for an agency to tell you at this particular stage. Remember, we don't know you very well yet. We don't have a full grasp of your needs and your organizational structure and where we fit into your overall budget to tell you how much money you should spend on your public relations services. We know what we need in order to do the scope of work that you were asking for. But we really need a reality check around what it is that you are able to spend.

And the other thing that falls into that is you cannot expect in a proposal stage for the agency to be able to tell you what to do because we do not know you. And we do not, no matter how many pre conversations we have, no matter how much information you're able to share at the stage of the proposal, we cannot and quite frankly should not be giving you a public relations plan.

Right.

Because we cannot possibly understand completely your needs. What you should be expecting from us is what to consider as part of your plan. Based on what you've outlined for us. If you tell us X, Y and Z, we will suggest that these are the things you should consider. But there is so much nuance in putting together a public relations and marketing plan that at the proposal stage, it is not the time, it is not the time to ask. And if someone provides that to you, it should be that it is not specific to your organization. It is a plan that we all have. We all have our generic plans. But that is not what you're looking for in your agency partner.

Well, and I'm going to go a little further and draw an even harder line and say it is unethical for you to request free creative work from agencies or freelancers or anybody as part of the selection process. If you are thinking, well, what I'm going to do is have them ... I'm going to pick our shortlist and I'm going to say, why don't each of you come up with your best ideas for us and present them. That is what they will get paid to do. Stop it. You cannot ask people to give you for free the thing that they sell. That's unethical. It is professional malpractice. And you might think it's obvious, and that's okay because you may have heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone, and y'all need to stop. You cannot ask people as part of a competitive process, or even if they're the one, and you just let the hire them if you believe they can do the work and then let them get to work. Yeah, I just, I do get very, very fired up about the expectation that agencies should essentially work for free for you to come up with their best ideas in order to win your business. They will come up with their best ideas for you once they have your business. The end.

Right? So the several years ago, the television show Mad Men, which I loved, and it was, as you know, it was focused predominantly on advertising, but they did weave in publicity and they would talk about stunts and all the things that just make PR people cringe. But one of the episodes they were pitching Honda Motorcycle, well, that, you know, we know there's not.

But what was so interesting was when they were shortlisted, Honda executives said, you have $2,000 or whatever equivalent to create a campaign for us. And I thought, how about that? So it counters what you're saying, right?

There is, don't ask me to give you my creative ideas unless you're willing at this stage to pay for them. And I would be happy to certainly engage in that conversation. But that was such a unique.

Now, that was taking place in the '60s and that doesn't happen anymore. But all we have to sell is our intellectual property, our minds, our creative talent, our abilities to do this work.

We should not be asked to give that to you at this particular stage. And honestly, you aren't getting what you want when you ask me to do that because again, I can't know you well enough yet.

So, you know, we really, in this conversation and whether we're doing it in a face to face, whether we're writing it, an email we really talk about this is a proposal to do the work for you and we are providing you with our knowledge and expertise.

We will be happy to share case studies of how we have done it in similar situations, show you examples of work that we have done that we think relates to what you are asking us to do. When you have decided that we are your agency of choice, then we will write your public relations plan.

And we have a whole structure about how we write your plan, the discovery sessions and the question and answers with some of your executives and other things. That is part of what we tell you is how we get started.

And then we can provide you with a plan that is addressing the needs of, from the conversations we've had with your executives and you even at that point have an opportunity to say it's not what we want. Just because we were on it doesn't mean that we've given you what you've wanted. But that's where your agency partnership comes in.

We have a back and forth, we have a conversation. The RFP request for proposals isn't going away. There are plenty of people out there that wish it would, that it would, that you know, that you know, I like you, Adrian. I want to work with you, Adrian. Let's get together and make it happen. Well, that isn't going to be the way that it goes, but you can, both sides of this, of this equation can make the process more user friendly, if you will, and that the entity that is requesting our services, whether you use a procurement officer or not, whether you're the in person writing the RFP, if you use, you know, AI to write your request, whatever it is, remember that there are people on both sides of these things, that the more information the prospect requesting the proposal provides, the better the response is going to be, that you're going to be getting trust in the process. Trust that the partners that you're asking to submit recognize that. Be open and transparent with what you can share with them.

If you are unable to share something, tell them why, you know, give me some idea as to why this question I'm asking can't be answered. Give budget parameters. It's not going to limit what the agency does for you. It just reframes how they're going to do it, they will still offer their services. They just might do it in a slightly different way. It might make a longer term, it might condense into a project.

They might tell you that that can fall outside of the scope and give you a project budget, whatever that is. The more information, the better off it will be. Be as available to the, to the agencies that are submitting as possible.

You know, they, I have no problem when you tell me that the proposal is due, you know, on Friday and questions need to be turned in by Tuesday. Great, fine, then get me the answers because I'm not continuing down the process until I understand completely. So be as open as possible.

And for the agencies that are submitting, take a real serious look at what's being asked. Don't just respond simply because you got the RFP. Really, really think about whether it's a good fit.

If the type of client fits into your organization and feels like it would be something that you can do a good job for, doesn't mean you have experience necessarily, but that you get what they're asking for. Do you have the bandwidth to perform the things that you will be proposing? We are not all things to all people and most of us aren't.

So think about whether or not you want to invest the time to put together the response and do the research you need to do in order to put together something that makes the most sense. And I fall victim to this all the time is don't wait till the last minute to do it.

You've got to give yourself enough time that if it's due in a week, start it now because you need the time to think through it. You want to do some of your own research. You don't want to end up cutting and pasting from all the other things and just putting something together.

Yes, you wrote a paragraph that was fantastic about media relations that you want to use. Again, no problem, but let's see if we can adjust it to the document and the client that we're proposing to.

This can be a win win situation for both sides. When both sides come to the process with this type of understanding. And it, as I said, it's not going away.

And so if we want to continue to play in this space, then we will be responding to RFPs.

But those of you that are, you know, issuing them, if you can think through that and you will save yourself significant amount of time because you'll get what you need.

And those of us that are response responding will get you what you need and it will be valuable on both sides and the relationships will develop and hopefully for the long term you'll have found your partner to provide, whether it's PR services or any other that fall in the creative services field. I think those are the important aspects of issuing and responding to your RFP.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Copper State of Mind. If you enjoyed the conversation, please share it with a colleague who might also find this podcast valuable. It's easy to do, just click the "Share" button in the app you're listening to now to pass it along. You can also follow Copper State of Mind in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or any other podcast app. We publish new episodes every other Friday.

Copper State of Mind is brought to you by HMA Public Relations, the oldest continuously operating PR firm in Arizona. The show is recorded and produced by the team at Speed of Story, a B2B communications firm in Phoenix, and distributed by PHX.fm, the leading independent B2B podcast network in Arizona. For all of us here at Speed of story and PHX.fm, I'm Adrian McIntyre. Thanks for listening and for sharing the show with others if you choose to do so. We hope you'll join us again for another episode of Copper State of Mind.