Climate change often feels overwhelming and too big to tackle, so most of us simply avoid talking about it. But what if talking about it was actually the key? In this episode, Dean Sarah Banet-Weiser sits down with Penn’s Vice Provost for Climate Policy and Action, Sanya Carley, and Annenberg’s Vice Dean and communication neuroscientist Emily Falk to model exactly what a rich, honest climate conversation can look like.

Drawing on research in energy justice, behavior change, and the science of persuasion, they explore how connecting climate action to personal values and everyday joy is more effective and why the climate crisis deserves the same urgency as AI.

Sarah Banet-Weiser: [ ] Hi everyone.

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Welcome to Annenberg Conversations.

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I'm Sarah Banet-Weiser, the Dean of

the Annenberg School for Communication

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at the University of Pennsylvania and

your host of these, really interesting

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podcasts with my colleagues from

around the University of Pennsylvania.

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Today we are going to explore some

groundbreaking research on media

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and communication and the climate.

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We're gonna be modeling today

how to have a conversation about

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climate because it is so complex.

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though, with our conversation, we

wanna highlight a couple of things.

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One kind of a basic sort of fact.

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Climate is complex and it

touches every part of our lives.

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Two.

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Many, many people care about it, but

they aren't sure how to make sense of it.

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They aren't sure where to start a

conversation or think about what's

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happening but there are good ways to talk

about it, and the more we talk about it

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with others, the better we can figure out

how to connect, how to think about what

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is important.

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My first guest is Sanya Carley, who is the

Vice Provost for Climate Policy and Action

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at the University of Pennsylvania and

the Presidential Distinguished Professor

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of Energy Policy and City Planning at

the Stuart Weitzman School of Design.

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She also co-directs the Energy Justice

Lab and is a research for the future.

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rFF University Fellow research

focuses on energy justice and just

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transitions, energy insecurity,

electricity and transportation markets

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and public perceptions of energy,

infrastructure and technologies.

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And we're so, so thrilled

that you're joining us today.

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So thank you for coming.

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Sanya Carley: thank you

so much for having me.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: and my

next guest is the incredible,

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brilliant professor Emily Falk.

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She is a professor of communication at

the Annenberg School for Communication.

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She is the vice dean,

the very first Vice Dean.

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Of the Annenberg School for Communication.

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Emily is also the director of the

Communication Neuroscience Lab

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and the director of the Climate

Communication Division at the

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Annenberg Public Policy Center.

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Emily is an expert in the

science of behavior change.

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Her research uses tools

from psychology neuros.

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Science and communication to examine

what makes messages persuasive, how

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and why ideas spread, and what makes

people effective communicators.

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So thank you both for coming.

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and let's get into modeling

what a rich, honest climate

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conversation can sound like.

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People often worry about climate and

they don't really know how to talk about

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it or they don't wanna talk about it.

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It's a scary thing.

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especially for particular generations who

have been told that they're inheriting a

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planet that will not be around forever.

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climate conversations kind of

can feel like a downer, you know?

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people feel like they're not

experts, to talk about this,

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so why should they even bother?

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And especially if, the experts

are gonna say, you're doomed.

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If that's the kind of general line, so

how do we engage people and empower them

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to have a different sort of conversation?

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Emily Falk: I think you're right Sarah,

that a lot of people worry about having

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climate conversations and in data from

our lab, that Ovidia Stanoi has collected.

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She finds that participants think about

climate conversations as potentially

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leading to disagreement.

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they worry that they might be dismissed.

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they worry that it'll feel

bad that they'll make other.

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people feel bad.

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But Actually, when we look at the,

data of how these conversations

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go down, when people have them.

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Both with people that they care about

and even people where they're not

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that comfortable already on average

in daily, life, a lot of those climate

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conversations end up being pleasant.

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They end up being

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instances where people form new

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connections, where they feel close to each

other, where they feel more empowered and

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that

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we think that this is like a huge missed

opportunity that people could be having

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more of these conversations, which could

help them build closeness, which could

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help, you know, foster their emotional.

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wellbeing, And also motivate action.

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as people are thinking about whether

to have these conversations with

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people in their networks, their

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friends, their

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neighbors, their kids, people that they.

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want to talk about this with, we think

that there are a lot of good entry points.

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You can start with the things that are

on your mind and the things that you'd

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like to see happening in your community.

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Sanya Carley: That's Great,

and maybe I'll just add

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also from the research perspective

and thinking about polling numbers,

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that people actually are in far

more consensus in their views on

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climate change the implications for

climate change, the need for policy

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action for climate change, as well as the

suite of different energy technologies.

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They are very consistent.

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In terms of their favorability toward

or against, or their beliefs about

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what is, behind all of these elements.

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But I think what makes

it more challenging is.

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The political polarization that we're

experiencing in the present day that is

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really leading one to believe through

misinformation, disinformation of

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social media, leading people to believe.

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That there are these bigger starker

contrasts than there actually are.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: Yeah, I think

that, A lot of times climate is

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understood, or climate change, or

climate crisis, or global warning.

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All the different names that we have

given it over the last several years.

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It lends itself in a way to conspiracy

thinking in ways that are slightly

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different than, sex trafficking lends

itself to conspiracy thinking or

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racism or that kind of thing because

people are really afraid of climate

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change and it feels huge to us and

so we don't know how to approach it.

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And so it's, Seems to me that it's

pretty easy to say they're just lying.

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You know, that pushes it out of our heads.

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It pushes it out of our lives

to say they're making it up.

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And I think that.

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Sanya, you're absolutely right that

political polarization, but especially

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affective polarization, which is not

really about the issues at all, but

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about just demonizing the other side.

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Sanya Carley: Yes, yes.

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yes

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: You know, that that

really lends itself to just, wiping

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out any real discourse about climate.

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'cause you're just like, it's that person.

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They're from that political party,

therefore they must be lying.

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Sanya Carley: Mm-hmm

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I do think, just to add on to your

point, the climate change as a

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kind of a concept or essence, it's so.

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So future oriented, it's

so unknown, it's so, um,

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chaotic and it makes people

feel so powerless, right?

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That any individual might not be able to

have agency or action in order to change

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the course of our entire globe or entire.

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world.

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Emily Falk: I think that's where

the conversation piece comes in.

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Right?

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Because.

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Coming from, the point of

view, of health communication.

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And public health kind of lens

on the climate, Future that

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we want for ourselves, right?

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There's a lot of evidence that

if you want a health campaign.

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To go, well, what you want

are Simple, clear messages.

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repeated often by a variety

of trusted and caring.

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messengers.

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And so who are the

trusted and caring people?

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It's Us.

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Right.

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It's.

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People who are our friends, people who

are our family are doctors, And so some

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people might think, well, this isn't

my lane because I am not an, you know,

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energy expert, or I'm not a policy wonk.

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But Really having people talk

about it is a first step towards,

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thinking about the solutions.

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And so even just sharing the things

that are on people's minds can

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go a long way towards addressing

what you were bringing up around.

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Psychologists call pluralistic ignorance

where we think I care but we don't

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know that everybody else cares too.

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And so

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conversations can be that inroad for

figuring out, like, what do people around,

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me want and need and think is important.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: I also think

that that space for conversation with

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climate, is really rich and sort of

ripe for, cultivating a real connection.

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And I was thinking, Emily,

as you were talking.

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About, a year and a half ago we had

an Annenberg lecture here and we had

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the meteorologist Marshall Shepherd

here who gave a talk about climate

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and voting and political perception.

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And one of the things that he said is

that at one end of the spectrum, you have

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people who understand the science and

know that climate change is happening

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and are clear on what the stakes

are and what the ramifications are.

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At the other end of the spectrum, you

have people who absolutely do not believe

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that climate, change is happening.

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that this is a hoax, and neither one of

those are the places for conversation.

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In some senses we don't need to

convince people who are already

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convinced that climate change is

happening, and it's important.

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We probably can't convince some

of those people who have decided.

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Under all circumstances that

researchers of the climate are lying.

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Right?

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But there's a huge gray area, a

huge middle ground there, where

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people are more ambivalent.

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They're not either this, yes or no.

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And so I think that that's the

space for the conversation.

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Sanya Carley: Yeah.

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I tend to think of this in, in terms

of a 20 60 20 rule, which I also

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apply as a, an administrator, right?

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So there's always gonna be 20% of

people who are entirely on board.

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With everything that

you're putting forward.

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They're always gonna be supportive.

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There's 20% of people who will never,

never comply, never be on board.

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They're always gonna fight against

whatever, whatever it is that

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you're, you know, whether it's

belief in climate change or if it's

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some initiative that you're trying

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to introduce, the 60% are that

percent that you say might be more

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ambivalent, they're more sway able

in one direction or the other.

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And I think the conversation is

really about how to draw them

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in and to engage with them.

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Emily Falk: Yeah.

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I Think there's also a big opportunity,

even for that upper 20% who are completely

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on board with the idea that it's real.

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It's US experts agree it's bad.

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There's hope you can

believe all of those things.

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and Still not know what the actions are.

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that we want people to take.

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Right.

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Like what are the things that we

as individuals can actually do?

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: So what are

some of the points in modeling a

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conversation about climate for you two?

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Where would you start or if you

could, use an example to have this

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kind of conversation for that.

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60%.

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Emily Falk: Well, I think that

there's a bunch of different entry.

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points, right?

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One is

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these basic facts, right?

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So for some of that.

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60%, Just those basic facts, that

climate change is real Hearing that

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the scientists and experts have

very strong consensus that it's

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not only gonna have effects in the future.

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But it's having effects right now on many

of the things that we care about most.

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Like one of the things that was, really.

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Powerful for me to process.

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As somebody who has focused on smoking

research for a long time is that burning

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fossil fuels is actually the leading

cause of death worldwide right now.

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Like a lot of estimates suggest that

one in five deaths is attributable

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to this kind of burning of fossil

fuels in terms of air pollution, heat

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related illness, vector-borne illness.

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So there's a lot of reason.

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To think about the effects on

us right now, not just future.

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Generations.

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at a personal level, like I think

about my dad died of a heart

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attack and really extreme heat.

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And you know, I think about if, we had had

a different set of circumstances there,

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like maybe I'd still have my dad, right?

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And I think for many of us making that

connection between the things that are

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happening in our day-to-day lives and.

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The situation broadly speaking about

climate, can be really important.

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so there are so many possible entry

points for these conversations.

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But starting off with what

are we actually talking about?

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I think is one.

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Sanya Carley: And I, I, in no way, profess

to be at all an expert on this because

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it, it's not quite the area that I.

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Do research in, but I do study energy and

security and energy justice challenges.

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And there, I think,

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some of the most important elements

are building trust between individuals.

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having empathy for individuals and

telling the human story are all.

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Kind of elements of, being.

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Able to convey some of the

challenges within this domain.

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Emily Falk: Yeah.

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and I think also, you know, I'd

love to hear you talk a little

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bit more about the energy space.

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'cause in some of the research that

our team has done, where we looked

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at what people think is gonna be.

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Impactful from a climate perspective

in terms of, carbon in the atmosphere.

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actually matters.

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There's a right?

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So people think about

things like recycling.

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'cause we see

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the recycle bins for our neighbors out

all over the city, and it's salient.

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But having green energy on our buildings

or thinking about what's going on in our

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homes or transportation choices, right.

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These are things that individual

people might have access to.

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and that actually have a really.

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Big impact.

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And so i'm curious, What are

the things you want them to do?

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Sanya Carley: Are, Yeah.

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Well, part of I think, high

on my wishlist is just,

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information.

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I think that the, examples that

you just gave really highlight how

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little information there actually

is in the energy space for example,

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if you were to ask a thousand

people, what is the most important

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energy step that you, could take?

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Well, how could you save the.

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Most?

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amount of energy?

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Almost everybody will say,

turn the light switch off.

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Right.

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That's what we've been told since

we were children in kindergarten,

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but that's actually the least thing

the least important thing that you

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could possibly do in terms of saving.

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Instead You could go swap out your hVAC

system or some of your picker appliances

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or insulate your home, which is also low.

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Hanging fruit.

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Uh, So I think information provision

is absolutely essential and to make

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sure that that information provision

is, consistent and universally spread

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across different populations as

opposed to just the populations that

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can pay to that can afford to care.

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Emily Falk: Yeah, there's a book

that, i'm really excited about

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actually, that's called Leave the

Lights On, um, that's written by, some

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psychologists thinking about, this issue.

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Um, and it's somebody who studies

happiness and somebody who studies climate

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basically saying like, you don't have

to do all of these things that you were

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taught to do that are, kind of a pain.

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and instead you can find the places

where what you want to do or.

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What's gonna be kind of good for

you in the short term is also.

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Good for the climate.

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Sanya Carley: I that.

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Emily Falk: you know, thinking about the.

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Swapping out going for a bike ride instead

of getting in your car or skipping a work

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trip that you really don't wanna go on.

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Making that a zoom trip.

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And getting time with your kids.

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Right.

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They have like all of these delightful

exercises for mapping out what is

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actually compatible with your short

term personal benefits and these kind

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of bigger picture climate things,

but that requires understanding.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: I love these examples.

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'cause it also requires, what you had

said before, Sanya, about a certain

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level of empathy And connection rather

than, a level of moralizing and shame.

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Yes.

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Right.

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And I think that that happens

so often with climate stuff.

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Like, years ago I wrote about the

Politics of recycling and the politics

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of companies and corporations going

green and how so much of that was

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performative and moralizing to build

their brand rather than have anything

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to do with actually helping the climate.

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And so that it just became a performative

act that really was meant to kind

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of shame people into doing things.

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And I think those examples from.

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That book Leave the Lights On are

really interesting because it's like.

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Who would think that, swapping out a work

trip for a Zoom, call is like something

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that you, would encourage people to do

because you could then stay with your kids

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and it seems like a personal thing and

it's, and, and you're sacrificing work.

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But in fact, the kind of energy that

it takes to fly somewhere and, be.

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put up in a hotel and everything

else in a conference and everything

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else is so much greater than turning

on your computer and zooming.

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And so I like this idea of

actually connecting it with joy.

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You know that, doing things for the

climate is not just because we should.

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Feels ashamed.

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Mm-hmm.

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but it, should, be something that

we feel joy about because we want

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to leave this place as something

where other people can live.

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You know, our generation,

future generations.

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Sanya Carley: yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, maybe I'll take the moment just to

celebrate on that same note, Penn Climate

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and what we're launching in this office.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: be

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Sanya Carley: Be great.

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Our intent actually,

is to do exactly that.

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It's to celebrate and it's to lead

with joy and to lead with solutions.

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As opposed to lingering on.

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our climate crisis, Right?

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So our our mission is really

to integrate from across the.

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University with the phenomenal

work that's happening.

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All across the university, including

in the, the 12 schools in the medical

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facilities and all, of the centers

and institutes bring everybody

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together, elevate together seek

solutions, and have big impact.

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And, What you just said just resonated so

strongly with what our, mission is here.

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We wanna be so inclusive and we wanna be.

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Seeking solutions.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: That's great.

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I really do think that more and

more, as I look across, our cultural

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politics, our economic climate,

our technological climate, that.

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what seems to generate a profit,

whether or not that's with cliques

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or with actual money or with, just

a kind of attention Is usually

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outrage and shaming and humiliation.

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And I think that.

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a healthy planet is one that

recognizes that humiliation and

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moralizing and outrage is not the

way that we should move forward.

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That instead we, to be healthy, what we

should do is celebrate with each other.

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So I'm so happy to hear that

that's what you're doing at Penn.

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Emily Falk: Yeah, I mean, I think

when we think about the real

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devastation that climate issues that

climate disaster can create, right?

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Some people might also think about

things like national security or about

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all of the housing insecurity or food

insecurity that's created, right?

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And those things don't feel joyful.

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And so I wonder if some people

might be thinking like, how am I

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supposed to feel joyful when there's

so many human lives at stake?

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And that really kind of

makes me think about.

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Some of our colleagues here at

Annenberg, like Desmond Patton,

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who's made the argument that.

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Joy is not just about this hedonic

experience of pleasure, but is fundamental

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and essential for our ability to confront

these big hard problems together and

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to think about how we can muster that

resilience in the face of existential

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dread or in the face of problems that

we really need many people to come

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together to solve in particular ways.

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and so I think people can think about

joy as a resource to draw on, not

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just when we're feeling good, but

especially when we're confronting

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something that's a big challenge like

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: so if we were to

imagine, what we could do as a way

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to, encourage joy and connection and

empathy, there are different levels.

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Right, that we can think about the climate

and one of the levels that I think you

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think about it, Sanya is like a systems

level, you know, and, I wondered if you

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could talk a little bit about your own

research in that area, and what are,

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some of the ways in which we can be

deliberate about solutions that address

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the systems level of climate change.

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Sanya Carley: Sure.

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Yeah.

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Well, maybe I'll just note that

first I am guilty of just publishing

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a book that is heavily depressing,

uh, counter to everything we

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were just talking about with joy.

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and the book is called Front Lines, the

Cost of American Energy in Transition,

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and what we focus on on the book

is the energy transition that we're

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currently facing as we're moving away

from fossil fuel resources, carbon

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intensive resources toward cleaner

energy sources, more localized,

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decentralized, efficient sources.

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And our argument in the book is that

as we're making this transition.

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We stand to perpetuate inequities

of our past energy systems.

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If we're not incredibly deliberate about

the way that we roll out these efforts,

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about the way that we ensure that jobs

are accessible to everyone, that we

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ensure that technologies are available

and accessible to everyone, that people

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aren't disproportionately losing their

jobs after sacrificing long, sacrificing

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their lives and their livelihood for

the industry that they've worked in.

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Or that people aren't locked

out of having access to energy

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because it's unaffordable.

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So that's the main premise of the book.

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It's depressing in the sense that

it's really, it's laying the,

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foundation of some of these challenges.

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but the idea is that we have to understand

the depths of the challenges before we

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can seek solutions so that we understand

the geographies, the people, the human

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stories, the human communities and what

they're facing, so that then we can go

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out and work in individual communities

and with individual or different

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demographic groups to seek solutions.

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And that's really where my

research focuses right now, is

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thinking about solutions oriented.

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Policy developments to address some

of these challenges just to be more

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concrete, an example is energy insecurity

or energy poverty, affordability, crisis

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that we're facing right now in the

United States when it comes to energy.

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My team at the Energy Justice Lab

has been looking at using randomized

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control trials, a variety of different

interventions that we can help households

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with in order to bring down their

energy bills, in order to provide

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better assistance for them so they can

avoid, for example, being disconnected.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: I love that

you wrote a depressing book that

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is also solution based, right?

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I mean, and as someone who writes

about misogyny and violence, I

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understand to write a depressing book,

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Sanya Carley: Yes,

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: But I think we

write depressing books not to ask

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people to be depressed, but we ask

people to think about these are some of

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the realities that we live, you know,

that the world is comprised of, right?

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What is the way that we can change them?

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there's.

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An activist who talks

about, active Hope, right?

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And this idea that it is radical to think.

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We can actually change something.

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It's, not radical to think that

we're just gonna keep going on,

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you know, the way we have been.

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So, if we can think that we

can change something like this,

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that becomes something that

is not depressing, but radical

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Sanya Carley: Mm-hmm.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: the best way.

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I and so I appreciate that

that's, what you are doing.

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in your work and in the work at across

Penn, you know, it makes me really happy.

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To be here, to be part of this community.

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and so that's the systems level.

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Emily has written a lot

about the personal level.

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what are the kind of factors that we use

to make particular choices in our lives?

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what are the ideas that we,

connect to that we think are good?

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Which ones do we discard?

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What are some examples that you

can point to that all of us and

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listeners can use in their everyday

lives to make that connection?

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Emily Falk: Sure.

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I mean, it's so interesting, Sanya that

you say that it's a depressing book.

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And I would say, when I think about

these kinds of problems, what would

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be really depressing is if we didn't

have the technology, if we didn't

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have paths forward that we could

leverage to do anything about it.

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actually the problems are not

technological barriers, right?

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We know how to make clean energy.

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We know how to make affordable energy.

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This is a political problem.

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This is a communication problem.

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A trust problem.

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We have colleagues here at Annenberg who

have done an amazing job documenting how

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the media environments that we're in.

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Can cultivate like a green sphere,

like I'm thinking about Guobin Yang's

453

work in China, thinking about the role

of the internet and all of this media

454

infrastructure to make it possible

for people to make their voices heard

455

and to say we really actually want a

clean and equitable climate future.

456

but in terms of the individual level and

what we can do as humans to make the world

457

better now and for future generations.

458

There are a number of kinds of

interventions that we find that work.

459

So in terms of our actual evidence

about what kinds of interventions seem

460

like they motivate people, I'll just

focus on two, that work For people

461

across the political spectrum, which

I think is really important in terms

462

of this, you know, we all wanna be

at the table doing this together.

463

So one is the short term personal benefits

thing that we've been talking about,

464

where we have people reflect on these

specific behaviors, like contacting your

465

representatives, sharing petitions, taking

these steps toward collective action or,

466

getting, cleaner energy for your home.

467

And so people think about

things like the cost.

468

To them, like, it's gonna be

cheaper for me on my next bill.

469

Or thinking about food choices,

like swapping out red meat for even

470

chicken is a noticeable, change.

471

What kinds of, how's your

body gonna feel afterwards?

472

Like what are the health benefits for you?

473

what are the tasty things, the immediate

kind of hedonic pleasures that can come

474

from making these kinds of choices.

475

and then the other intervention

that we found that can be helpful

476

is to help people connect.

477

Climate action to their

own core moral values.

478

So when we think about the moral

values that many people care about,

479

things like care and compassion are

high up on the list for liberals, for

480

conservatives, like many of us care about.

481

Being connected to the

people in our communities.

482

And so when we help people connect

to whatever it is that's important to

483

them, loyalty, purity, like, all these

different kinds of values that matter

484

to different people across the political

spectrum, when they reflect on the ways

485

that taking care of our environment is

compatible with those values, it also

486

makes them more open, more motivated

to thinking about what we can do next.

487

Sarah Banet-Weiser: Yeah.

488

I think that that is so important

to just think about how it is

489

that making these kind of choices.

490

About the climate.

491

They feel on the one level

political, right, because of the

492

political context that we live in.

493

but to actually have

them feel like they are.

494

Bringing value to our lives and not just

in the big picture way of like the lives

495

of everyone on the planet, but our lives.

496

I think that that's really important

because I've been reading a lot lately

497

about, the epidemic of loneliness

and the way in which, contemporary

498

culture makes people feel alienated

and disconnected and detached.

499

And it's interesting because both

of you from a systems level and

500

from a personal level, are talking

really explicitly about connecting.

501

the state of the globe, the state

of climate to our personal decisions

502

to what we value in our lives.

503

And I think that, Emily, what you just

said is like, it doesn't matter if

504

you're on the left or the right, or

Republican or Democrat, people say.

505

Values matter.

506

Our personal values matter, and

people, have families and friends

507

that they love, that they want to

make decisions that impact them.

508

and you had mentioned Sanya

about how do we restore trust?

509

I mean, that is a hard one.

510

That is the hard thing.

511

do we restore trust in science?

512

How do we restore trust

in higher education?

513

All And I think that what I'm

getting from this conversation is.

514

that the climate and thinking seriously

about how to have a conversation about

515

the climate, is in some ways the most

important thing we can do right now.

516

Mm-hmm.

517

But we need to connect it with our own

personal values and what gives us joy.

518

Otherwise, it's gonna be one more

thing that makes us feel alienated.

519

You know, that us feel lonely.

520

Emily Falk: I mean, one of the things

that, what you were just saying makes

521

me think about is another one of

the interventions that was effective

522

in this big intervention tournament

that we ran here at Penn was writing

523

a letter to future generations.

524

other teams of scientists at NYU and

other places have found this too.

525

So if you think about.

526

A kid who you really care about.

527

Maybe it's your own kid, maybe it's

a niece or nephew, maybe it's a dear

528

friend, and you think about that kid

and you get that kid in your mind, and

529

then you write them a letter that you

imagine they're gonna open in 30 years.

530

Like what do you want

their world to be like?

531

What do you wanna tell

them about what you did?

532

Now.

533

To influence the

trajectory of their future.

534

And that letter to a future generation

also makes people feel significantly more

535

motivated to take climate action now.

536

You know, thinking about that future,

when we think about how the brain works.

537

That valuation system

prioritizes immediate concerns.

538

prioritizes the me that's

right here, right now.

539

But we as humans have this incredible

capacity for mental time travel, right?

540

We can imagine a future

and make it closer.

541

We can make that future more vivid.

542

By writing a letter to a future generation

by even just engaging our imagination and

543

what kind of climate future do we imagine

if we continue on this trajectory versus

544

if we listen to Sanya and think about,

you know, energy transitions that are

545

gonna be more fair for all humans, right?

546

Sanya Carley: Sometimes I wish

that grand babies would whisper in

547

the ears of their grandparents who

happen to be policymakers, making

548

decisions not on behalf of a, a

future that is, climate secure.

549

Sarah Banet-Weiser: Well,

I just had my very first

550

Sanya Carley: Yay.

551

Congratulations.

552

So

553

Sarah Banet-Weiser: he

whispered in my ear that we

554

Sanya Carley: thank you,

555

Sarah Banet-Weiser: I think there's

lots more to be said, in this

556

conversation, but I think that.

557

really struck and sort of moved by

the tone of this conversation about

558

climate that has made me really, kind

of reposition myself in the way I

559

understand climate as something that is

about this kind of personal connection

560

and joy and love and resisting, the.

561

Kind of alienation and, outrage

machines that run our technological

562

landscape and all the rest.

563

and to make something that is

about protecting the climate into

564

an act of joy and an act of love.

565

So, I am really, honored that you

both, shared your thoughts with me

566

and with everyone today about this.

567

and, you know, a few days ago.

568

soya, when we were talking about

this episode, you mentioned that

569

as we move forward, that every

job Will have a climate element.

570

it's not just jobs in energy or

jobs in climate science, but every

571

job, will have a climate, element.

572

And, we also talked about how.

573

Every newspaper, every university,

including our own, is so

574

focused on, what is AI gonna

575

do?

576

Is AI gonna disrupt?

577

Is it going to allow for this?

578

Is it gonna connect?

579

it's getting so much play about how

it's gonna transform our future.

580

And there is a lot at stake there.

581

including stuff that has to do with energy

582

Sanya Carley: climate.

583

Yeah.

584

Yeah.

585

Sarah Banet-Weiser:

But imagine if climate.

586

Would receive that kind of urgency.

587

that same sense that this is the

defining challenge, that requires

588

all of our focus and creativity

and our, willingness to have the

589

conversation and to tell the story in

ways that aren't overly complicated,

590

but are, but really, communicate

the very, very high stakes, that.

591

exist in this.

592

I did wanna, just end with we should

imagine what it would be like if, we

593

just had that same kind of urgency

about climate and it, and we understood

594

that it's gonna be part of every

595

Sanya Carley: Yeah.

596

And eager investment

597

like ai

598

Sarah Banet-Weiser: Yes.

599

Eager investment.

600

Exactly.

601

Sanya Carley: Mm-hmm.

602

Yeah.

603

Emily Falk: that's Such

a, smart comparison.

604

And the, thing that I

would say again here.

605

That we haven't maybe focused on as

much in this conversation as the role

606

of the media systems that we're part of.

607

Right?

608

I think people underestimate how powerful

the influences are from all of the

609

information that we're seeing online

from the news that we're consuming.

610

And so, journalists, this.

611

is your lane.

612

Like thinking about each of us and what

we're posting online, thinking about

613

on the regulatory side, disinformation.

614

Such a poison in this space, right?

615

And so thinking about platforms

and their role, here at

616

Annenberg we have factcheck.org

617

at the policy center that's doing

their best to give the facts about

618

what's real and what's not real.

619

We have folks studying conspiracy

theories and misinformation and

620

disinformation, and how we just

621

might wanna bypass.

622

flood the zone with good information,

with facts About what's happening.

623

and the more people become

aware of how powerfully

624

we're influenced by the media

that surround us, by the messages

625

that we're getting.

626

I think it can also

help remove some of that

627

shame, right?

628

Feeling like, oh, there's

just some personality that's

629

susceptible to conspiracies.

630

Or there's just, something

that's wrong with people.

631

For believing all this

misinformation, but wow.

632

If we're in this environment where

we're just surrounded it, it's not

633

so hard to understand then how we're

in the situation that we're in.

634

So pushing for different kinds of media

policy for more resources, going towards

635

high quality journalism, for All of

those things, that make it possible

636

for us to have the facts and have the

inputs toward decision processes be good

637

inputs so that we can make decisions

that are actually in our self-interest

638

Sarah Banet-Weiser: That's

a perfect note to end on.

639

thank you both for joining me today and

this incredibly important and just also

640

really compelling conversation about.

641

how to have this conversation.

642

And, this episode wraps up season two

of Annenberg conversations, and we'll be

643

back in the fall with, new conversations

about different communication and media

644

research and tapping into the kind of

brilliant, brain trust that we have all

645

across the University of Pennsylvania,

646

So, till then.

647

thank you again, both of you.

648

And, um, that would be goodbye for me.