Content advisory: This episode covers some sensitive issues on mental health including discussion of suicide.

• Check out the 19 minute documentary, Muckville, for free on Hudsy!
• Check out the USDA's Financial Resources for Farmers

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Directed by Laura Siegel

Hosted by Linda Emanuel

Edited by Matt McKenney for ProPodcastingServices.com

Special Guests: Chris Pawelski and Eve Pawelski

Welcome to the Talking Total Farmer Health podcast from AgriSafe Network. At AgriSafe, we work to protect the people that feed the world by supporting the health and safety professionals, ensuring access to preventative services for farm families and the agriculture community.

Hello listeners! For those of you working in agriculture, I’m sure you’ve felt the stress of strained finances or that very real fear when a natural disaster hits. Or, when the volatile market prices continue to downward trend. And sometimes it might feel that there’s no hope, that there’s nothing you can do in those instances to make it better. You are not alone in this, and I think it’s safe to say that we have all been there at one point or another – it’s part of being human. But there are some steps you can take, both preventatively and in light of hard times, and we will touch on some of those today.

For today’s episode, we will be speaking with Chris and Eve Pawelski, a married couple from New York State! They were just featured in a short documentary film called Muckville, which was directed and produced by Jeff Mertz with Moonbow Imaging and released back in the fall – and I’ll give you some more details before the end of the show. Also, in today’s episode, we’re going to talk about financial hardships, resiliency, working on mental health. Please see the show notes for additional content advisory, before proceeding. At any point, if you feel stressed out or uncomfortable as you listen to this podcast, you are welcome to skip forward or stop listening. And remember that someone is always available to chat if you call or text 988. Your well-being is important to us!

Well, without further ado, let’s dive in! Chris and Eve, thanks so much for joining us today!

Thank you very much for inviting us.

Thank you.

Oh, you are more than welcome. Let's get started with the introductions. Chris, please introduce yourself to our audience.

Well, my name is Chris Pawelski. I am a fourth generation family farmer, in Orange County, New York, which is about an hour north of New York City in the lower Hudson Valley. And I farm on, muck soils. my area is actually the, it's the largest deposit of muck soils that's under cultivation in the United States. And, muck is exceptional at growing all sorts of things. Fruits and vegetables and in particular, onions. It's well suited for onions. So that's what my father, grew, primarily. And that's what I went into as well. And, I also, should mention that I have, degrees in both undergraduate and a master's degree in broadcasting and film studies. I went to the University of Iowa, so I have a kind of a different kind of background, and… But that, those degrees were very helpful for me when we had a series of weather disasters here. In the 90s, I kind of became the spokesperson, and the primary, advocate, grassroots lobbyist for the community to work on issues including, primarily in the beginning, labor issues and then, disaster aid and crop insurance reform. And, I've been doing public policy work, on all local, state and federal level for, close to 30 years.

Wow. Who knew that degree would carry you into so many different paths and in different genres? That's wonderful. Eve, sitting right alongside of Chris there. Tell us about yourself and what you, what your life looks like there in the farm.

Well, I'm his other half. I did not grow up in a- in this farming community. I grew up in a farming community in Wisconsin, though my family did not farm. We got married in 1990, and we moved back here in 93 and started farming, really full time in 94, right?

Part time in 94, 95. So I was teaching at the local college, and then we started farming full time in 96.

That's right. Um. And 96 was also our first weather disaster. and so then shortly after that, we started to work together on various, policy improvements, whether it was to the, crop insurance, the federal crop insurance program, or for disaster aid or other state programs. We did that for a number of years. In 2001, I believe. Around 2001, I became the ag economic development director for the county for a couple of years. Then I had my second child and said, this isn't- I can't juggle that, and took care of, of my two kids for a few years. When we got to about 2005, 2006, I realized that, we, we financially needed additional income. And so I took a, I took a job at the local school, and I've been there since.

We also- we also needed the, the health insurance. It was getting to the point where we were, self-insured. And we were with, through the local chamber of commerce. And it was a point where we were about to actually drop our insurance because we couldn't afford it anymore. And her employment at the school provided exceptional health insurance. And that was one of the reasons too.

I feel like that's a relatable story for many farm families and farm couples is they need to seek that off farm income. And, and the major reason driving factor of that is the health insurance. So tell us, Chris and Eve, what is Muckville about?

Well, Muckville is a documentary short that was done through, Hudsy financed it, and it was done in cooperation with or working with FarmNet, New York FarmNet, and Muckville is a story about um, Eve and I and, and kind of the struggles we had economically and the pressures that put on us and, and me in particular, which led to, issues of depression and thoughts of suicide. And the, the documentary talks about that along with a major, event that occurred in this time frame, was the passing of my father and, who was, my father and brother and I farmed together and, that was a very difficult, thing to deal with. And Muckville talks about what we how we struggled, what we dealt with, and then how we came out of it, basically.

I did watch the film and, it's- it definitely will… especially for those of us that work in agriculture... It it took my breath away a little bit, and became emotional because it's such a real story and a raw story. And I feel like so many of us know of someone that has struggled in agriculture and with depression and losing a family member. And there's, there's a lot of components there that stack up. So, for those who'd like to watch the documentary, either find the link in our show notes or open up a browser and search Hudsy Muckville. And that Hudsy is spelled H-U-D-S-Y and Muckville is spelled M-U-C-K-V-I-L-L-E. And it should come up as one of your top results. And, and once you find it, all you have to do is make a free account and then you can watch it. So, what inspired you, to really open up and discuss your financial hardships and mental health in general?

When Jeff approached us about about this, along with FarmNet, about the project, um. I know I felt and I think Eve as well, that it was, really important to be as forthright as we could so as to give people, not only an understanding of what we dealt with, but also how we dealt with it and how they can, too, and how they can address it and, and help themselves either, either with the financial issues or the mental strain and pressure.

And Eve sitting alongside as you're watching your husband go through these difficult times and trying to understand why the numbers aren't working and why the weather does what it does and, and all of those life factors. What was your experience?

Um. Gosh, we were it- it was. It was very, it was very hard. I remember in the middle of it, and I can't remember exactly what year it was. There was a documentary on PBS and it was called The Farmer's Wife. We were dead smack in the middle of a weather disaster of trying to figure out how to pay the bills. It was- it was very emotional and gut wrenching to watch that documentary. But, there was also an aspect of that, you weren't alone. Somebody else was going through that, who was figuring it out, going day by day. And so when Chris told me that he had been approached by FarmNet to, to do this documentary. And I was not crazy about it. I had already lived through it. I had already done all of the public policy work… It was difficult, but I do have to say that I, I felt that there was a value in doing the documentary or being a part of it. Because it is so stressful and we are not uncommon.

The majority of farms out there have off farm incomes supporting them. They're not making it just on their farming. And farms don't just go out of business because of one bad year. They tortuously decline over years that those families are feeling that kind of pressure. And it's worthwhile to be a part of something that lets others know that they can reach out and be okay.

You're right, it does. It's a little bit, relieving in a way of that pain to know you're not alone, that there are so many others that are walking along right alongside, experiencing some of the very similar feelings. You know, if you if you could go back in time and give yourself 1 or 2 pieces of advice, what would it be?

You know, for me, one thing would be, is, you know. I spent so much time and energy on working on, like the policy issues, which were fruitful. But, if I go talk to myself back in time, I would say spend more time with your family and less on that. Not that I wouldn't want to accomplish those things, but I... I missed a lot of stuff involving my sons growing up and even, even though I spent, you know, almost every day with my father, and especially as we worked in during the growing season, which is from, you know, March until December, January, I wish at times I actually spent a little bit more time with him, and I didn't yell at him as much.

That’s one thing about, people don’t understand, when you work with your family and and on a farm, you kind of yell at each other, and, it's just the nature of how it is. You know, my father always said he knew I never meant anything by it. But I kind of wish that, I didn't yell at him as much on, on certain things. And, and I wish I spent more time with my sons and my wife. if I go back in time, I would urge myself to balance that out a little bit better.

I would have to say that the piece of advice that I wish I would have had that I, I didn't actually get until recently from, my son's girlfriend. She was raised by a single mom, and struggled. And she- I was meeting her for the first time, you know, you're panicked about, you know, are you going to have all the food? Okay, is your house going to be clean? What's this person going to think? And I'm like, telling my son, you know, I can't do it all, you know? And I kind of was apologetic, you know, to her that, yeah I knew everything wasn't great and and it was asking like, how did your mom, how did your mom do it? And she looked at me just very, very openly and said, “no one is doing it all. And if you think they are, you just caught them on a really good day.” And I thought, oh, what a, what a beautiful, what a beautiful thought. A gift, really.

You know, as a farmer's wife, you are taking care of your family. You are trying to take care of your children and all their school needs and activities. You are involved in the farm in some way. If you're not actually doing farm work, maybe you're also doing the bills. You've got your outside job. You've got, you know, in our case, aging parents. There just aren't enough hours in the day and you're not going to do everything well. And I constantly berated myself that, you know, my house is a mess. The cat litter boxes aren't scooped, you know? And, and how did other people do it and the reality is they're not either.

No they're not. What a prophetic message to share from a young person to- to the mother, right? I understand that, Eve, when our boys brought the girls home too. I was very much stressed out about how the house will look. Was the food okay? And all of that. And you’re exactly right there. Everything you see on the outside is not exactly what's going on on the inside. Yeah. For sure. Some thoughts I had when I watched the film, from both of you. You had ideas to instill hope. I felt like that was one thing you were looking for during that dark time was like, what are some things that could give us hope to help us start climbing our way out of this dark valley?

There were small things that, I needed to... I knew I needed to have fixed in my mind that, I needed to take one day at a time. I needed to be grateful for the small things in my life. And a lot of those things are intangible things. The love that I have with my husband, my children became incredibly important to me and my relationship with them, and fostering a good relationship between the two of them. Because you're not going to have a beautiful house and you're not going to have a new car, and you're not going to have a new pair of shoes. You'll be lucky if you can get the tractor fixed. So, it is very important to be cognizant of the things that you're grateful for. And the other thing that was very hard to do. But I tried to remind myself, and he can, he can do this quote better than I can. In planet of the apes. There's a point at which Taylor says….

“There's just one reality left. We are here and it is now. You better get a hold of that fact, or you might as well be dead.”

And I tried to remind myself of that and have that mantra going through my head, whenever I really started to lose it. Life was not happening behind me, I could not change the weather, I could not change any of the decisions that we made. Life was not happening 5 or 10 years down the road or even a month down the road. If a check bounced, or if somebody didn't get paid, or if something didn't happen. Life was happening now. Now, and not to get ahead of myself. And it's easy to say that. It's very hard to do it.

When things were, you know, getting pretty dark. And I went and started seeing a therapist, which helped a great deal… because I was losing weight rapidly, I wasn't eating. And my body was starting to, be affected, and I knew I had to I had to do something because I was starting to get very dark thoughts, too. And so I reached out for a therapist, and then I worked on the policy stuff, and that was- gave me focus on things where I could. Like she said, I can't control the weather. I can't control what I sell my product for and what's dictated to me. But I could, you know, the policy stuff. I, to a certain extent, I could control. And that helped me. It helped me focus and cope, basically, knowing that I could do something.

That’s right, living in the moment. And what I'm hearing from you is, is making sure that you're living your life now, and then what are those things that you can control, and taking stock of those. Do you have any advice to those currently going through debt and financial hardships?

Well, I would, you know, the first thing you want to look towards is your local cooperative extension office. There's a number of programs, that they offer, and New York is exceptional. New York's extension service, you know, has the FarmNet program and the local extension offices do offer a lot of, assistance, to you and including, like, things regarding financial. One of the things that they offer it through FarmNet to us was and this was key, Eve that Eve pushed for actually was to work on a farm transfer, program and protect our assets. And it was Eve that pushed for that. And we actually put our farm into a trust, and I can't tell you, that's, to put it bluntly, it saved our our farm.

Because eventually, um, after my father passed, before my father passed, my mom was diagnosed with dementia. And after my father passed, it kind of accelerated a bit and then it stabilized. But she was at a point where she could not care for herself. And it's gotten to the point where she deteriorated to a degree that she's required 24-7 home care. And, uh, fortunately, you know, Eve pushed for it, and back in 2005, we put the Farm and Trust. And FarmNet has a program that they work with you and with a law firm in Syracuse that specializes in it.

And they- they do the work to get, you know, make the trust and the like. And, uh, that trust enabled us to get my mom on Medicaid. And with Medicaid, we were able to get my mom in a program called the Nursing Home Transition Diversion Program, or the NHTD program. It's referred to colloquially as the Waiver Program, and it provides 24-7 home care for someone. And the whole purpose of it is, it's cheaper for the federal government to have someone be cared for at home than it is in a facility. And of course, it's better for the person to be at home. So, it really is designed to get people out of facilities back at home or keep them home. And, um, if it wasn't for that program and getting our farm into trust, we would have- my mom, we would not be able to afford to care for my mom. We would have lost everything, basically, we would have lost our property, lost the houses and the whole like. So thankfully, Eve it was Eve that pushed for it and and we got that done by extension and FarmNet was responsible.

The other thing you know, your local USDA service center does on a financial level does offer programs as far as, there's various loan programs or some grants and such and that are available. And through that, through that USDA service center, you can find out about that and they can help you, apply for that. So you, your constituent services, you reach out to them and have them also help you, you know, find out what's out there and available to assist, and not feel… You're not bothering them, you know, and even if you are, too bad. That's why- That's why they're there. I mean, that's, that's their whole that's their job. And you want to make them do their job. And, and that is including helping on the individual level. whether it be, you know, you need help with, dealing with a disaster or looking for, you know, any kind of financial assistance, that's what they're there for. And it's, it amazes me. And I talk to people on the internet often, you know, all, all over the place and how so many people actually never do that.

I think, I think we were really blessed to have FarmNet in our state. when I, when I called them. There were times where there were times when I called them from work that I was trying to figure things out or puzzle through how to handle something, and the ability to call and talk to somebody and, and have that was- was huge. You know you're in a position where you don't want to tell somebody that your farm is, at least the way that you feel, is your farm is failing. You're not making it. Don't, don't let that stop you from getting the help that you need. And you do need help. You're not weak. You're under an incredible amount of pressure that is inhumane. And there is nothing wrong with asking for somebody's help to figure out your finances, or to help you figure out how you can continue to be the person that you need to be for your family.

And when we use I mean, we used them on three separate occasions or issues. Early on, they were the ones that facilitated and set up the farm transfer program. Then after my father passed and we were just my brother and I, we had some issues dealing with each other without my father being there. They sent in mediators, um, to work with work with us on that. And then thirdly, after, when it was decided that we weren't going to grow onions anymore, they sent, uh, two people out, uh, one who was, uh, a team. The, the one person the guy was, um, Greg. He was the one that was the farmer background. And he helped as far as, you know, what we could do business wise to make adjustments and changes to, to deal with our situation. And then Jen was the person who was the, uh, dealt with as far as our emotions and our and our mental well-being and that sort of thing. So they I mean, on three different occasions, we availed themselves of their services and they were extremely helpful to us. And they still are. We still keep in contact with Greg and Jen and, um, and we they first came to our home and they didn't they didn't live nearby. They drove out. And then thankfully, we now have the technology, this is like the zoom technology. We did a number of zoom meetings…

FarmNet just sounds like just a really remarkable program, so we have had a great conversation, and I know this could go on for a long time… is there anything else that you'd like to share or any wrap up messages to drive home some of the great points that you shared with our audience?

Don't isolate yourself. I know- I know, both of us, you know, it was very hard, very sad. For- on multiple levels. Don't isolate yourself and keep asking. Keep asking, whether it's for information on how you can handle your financial situation, asking for help to somebody else. Keep reaching out.

We're also open to if people, you know, want to contact us or, you know, or it's okay to say our, our my email address is E-V-E-P. My wife's first name Eve. And the first initial my last name, P, at Warwick dot net (evep@warwick.net). And there's like something that you know during this that you have a, you know a question on. You want to ask me more about… Feel free to, you know, reach out and contact me….You just want to talk? Whatever? You tell me about your story, whatever. I'm happy to listen.

Yes. Well, it was such a great visit with you. You're so honest and so real. And I think folks are going to find this so very relatable. Thank you for your time…

Thank you.

Okay folks, that’s it for today. Thank you again for tuning in to another episode. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast to hear more from AgriSafe on the health and safety issues impacting agricultural workers. If you’d like to suggest topics, or have a story you’d like to share, contact us by email at info@agrisafe.org, and title your email “TTFH Podcast.” You can also get our attention by using the hashtag "TTFHpod" on Twitter! To see more from AgriSafe, including webinars and our newsletter, visit www.agrisafe.org.

This episode was created by AgriSafe Network, directed by Laura Siegel, hosted by me, Linda Emanuel, edited by Matt McKenney for ProPodcastingServices.com, with special guests Chris and Eve Pawelski.