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Episode 84 - Unconventional Publishing Models with David Morris
Episode 84 • 4th December 2025 • Hybrid Pub Scout Podcast • Hybrid Pub Scout Podcast
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This episode’s guest is David Morris of Lake Drive Books.

In today’s interview, David tells us more about Lake Drive’s mission, publishing practices, and unconventional financial model. David also offers his takes on how to determine what works for you when it comes to choosing a publishing path and gives some platform-building insights for authors.

--

Hybrid publishing has a bit of a nebulous definition at the moment, but as authors are becoming more disenchanted with traditional publishing and discovering how grueling self publishing can be, they’re becoming more relevant. 

Since it’s been the standard for such a long time, people are used to the traditional publishing model. They expect that:

  1. Publishers pay for everything
  2. Authors get advances and royalties
  3. Publishers take care of book promotion and marketing

But here’s a few problems (among others):

  1. The “everything” that publishers pay for has a big asterisk attached to it, even in trad
  2. Advances and royalties are more underwhelming than ever (or maybe “less whelming”?)
  3. Book promotion and marketing mostly falls on the author now (see point 1)

I’ve seen a lot of talk about hybrid publishing being predatory and no different from vanity presses, and in some cases…sure. But when you don’t have a major corporation paying all the up front costs, there are some practicalities to consider. Namely, who’s going to pay for all these professionals to do the work of making a book?

If you listened to the show before, hopefully you’ve gotten the message of how hard ghostwriters, editors, designers, marketers, and other publishing professionals work to create the best book possible. And that work needs to be compensated. But, authors, obviously, should get the best deal possible for their work, too.

So where does that leave us?

How do we bring books into the world while making sure it’s fair to everyone, especially when everyone who isn’t a CEO of a major corporation has such a tight budget? And how do you, as an author, know the money and effort you spend on the publishing side is going to get you to your goal?

The Independent Book Publisher’s Association (or IBPA) has tried to set up some standards for hybrid presses in the last several years. At last look, these are what the IBPA says a good hybrid publisher should do:

  1. Define a mission and vision for its publishing program.
  2. Vet submissions.
  3. Commit to truth and transparency in business practices.
  4. Provide a negotiable, easy-to-understand contract for each book published.
  5. Publish under its own imprint(s) and ISBNs.
  6. Publish to industry standards.
  7. Ensure editorial, design, and production quality. 
  8. Pursue and manage a range of publishing rights. 
  9. Provide distribution services.
  10. Demonstrate respectable sales.
  11.  Pay authors a higher-than-standard royalty. 

As you may have noticed, there’s considerable wiggle room in there for these definitions (for example, you as the author are responsible for deciding how to define things like “respectable sales”). And the definitions are constantly evolving. So, that’s a big part of what we’ll be looking at in this and upcoming episodes. 

Transcripts

Emily Einolander:

Welcome to the hybrid pub Scout podcast helping

Emily Einolander:

you navigate the publishing landscape. I'm M Einolander, and

Emily Einolander:

I explore resources and services so authors can be successful and

Emily Einolander:

safe as they pursue publishing. Fun fact, when I first started

Emily Einolander:

this podcast, I quickly realized that the actual name was a

Emily Einolander:

little bit not what I meant. I had set out to talk to

Emily Einolander:

publishing professionals and writers about their experiences

Emily Einolander:

working with traditional and indie publishing, especially

Emily Einolander:

people who had done both what I quickly and too late realized

Emily Einolander:

was that when people hear hybrid a lot of them think of hybrid

Emily Einolander:

presses. Well, good news for me. Since I went on hiatus, hybrid

Emily Einolander:

publishing has proliferated, and there's a lot more to explore.

Emily Einolander:

Seven years later, I've finally aligned more with the name of my

Emily Einolander:

business. I'm sure some would say there's something cosmic

Emily Einolander:

about that, but maybe hybrid publishing has a bit of a

Emily Einolander:

nebulous definition at the moment, but as authors are

Emily Einolander:

becoming more disenchanted with traditional publishing and

Emily Einolander:

discovering how grueling self publishing can be, they're

Emily Einolander:

becoming more relevant. Since it's been the standard for such

Emily Einolander:

a long time. People are used to the traditional publishing

Emily Einolander:

model. They expect that one publishers pay for everything.

Emily Einolander:

Two authors get advances in royalties, three publishers take

Emily Einolander:

care of book promotion and marketing, but there's a few

Emily Einolander:

problems with that. Number one, the everything that publishers

Emily Einolander:

pay for has a big asterisk attached to it. Two, advances in

Emily Einolander:

royalties are more underwhelming than ever. And three, book

Emily Einolander:

promotion and marketing mostly falls on the author. Now,

Emily Einolander:

regardless of how they're publishing, I've seen a lot of

Emily Einolander:

talk about hybrid publishing being predatory under every

Emily Einolander:

circumstances, and I want to push back on that, even though

Emily Einolander:

in some cases they are predatory. But when you don't

Emily Einolander:

have a major corporation paying all the upfront costs, there are

Emily Einolander:

some practicalities to consider, namely, who is going to pay for

Emily Einolander:

all these professionals to do the work of making a book? If

Emily Einolander:

you listened to the show before, hopefully you've gotten the

Emily Einolander:

message of how hard ghost writers, editors, designers,

Emily Einolander:

marketers and other publishing professionals work to create the

Emily Einolander:

best book possible, and that work needs to be compensated,

Emily Einolander:

and authors obviously should get the best deal possible for their

Emily Einolander:

work too. So where does that leave us? How do we bring books

Emily Einolander:

into the world while making sure it's fair to everyone,

Emily Einolander:

especially when everyone who isn't a CEO of a major

Emily Einolander:

corporation has such a tight budget? And how do you as an

Emily Einolander:

author, know the money and effort you spend on the

Emily Einolander:

publishing side is going to get you to your goal. The

Emily Einolander:

Independent book Publishers Association, or ibpa, has tried

Emily Einolander:

to set up some standards for hybrid presses in the last

Emily Einolander:

several years at last look. These are what they say a good

Emily Einolander:

hybrid publisher should do, and I'm just going to run through

Emily Einolander:

the list, rather than read every single part of it. I'll include

Emily Einolander:

the link in the show notes, so you can go check out what they

Emily Einolander:

have there yourself. And maybe it's changed since I looked who

Emily Einolander:

knows. Number one, define a mission and vision for its

Emily Einolander:

publishing program. Two, vet submissions. Three, commit to

Emily Einolander:

truth and transparency in business practices. Four,

Emily Einolander:

provide a negotiable, easy to understand contract for each

Emily Einolander:

book published. Five, publish under its own imprint and ISBNs.

Emily Einolander:

Six, publish to industry standards. Seven, ensure

Emily Einolander:

editorial design and production quality. Eight, pursue and

Emily Einolander:

manage a range of publishing rights. Nine, provide

Emily Einolander:

distribution services. 10, demonstrate respectable sales

Emily Einolander:

and 11, pay authors a higher than standard royalty. As you

Emily Einolander:

may have noticed, there's considerable wiggle room in

Emily Einolander:

there for these definitions. For example, you as the author are

Emily Einolander:

responsible for deciding how to define things like respectable

Emily Einolander:

sales, and the definitions are constantly evolving. So that's a

Emily Einolander:

big part of what we'll be looking at in this and upcoming

Emily Einolander:

episodes. In today's interview, I'm talking with David Morris,

Emily Einolander:

founder and publisher of like drive books, a conventional

Emily Einolander:

publishing company with an unconventional financial model,

Emily Einolander:

full disclosure, in case it isn't obvious, I do work with

Emily Einolander:

like drive in a managing editor position, and I'm having a

Emily Einolander:

pretty good time, too. David has 30 years of experience in

Emily Einolander:

editing, marketing and corporate leadership with major publishing

Emily Einolander:

brands like HarperCollins, sondern. In where he served as

Emily Einolander:

vice president and publisher and worked on numerous best sellers.

Emily Einolander:

His sole focus is working with spiritually progressive and

Emily Einolander:

personal growth authors, leveraging his experience to

Emily Einolander:

help them achieve publishing success. David is also a

Emily Einolander:

literary agent at hyponomist literary co host of the

Emily Einolander:

publishing disrupted podcast an author and holds a doctorate in

Emily Einolander:

psychology and religion. Lake Drive books vision is to serve

Emily Einolander:

authors and readers who want to break the mold and ask honest

Emily Einolander:

questions about religion, spirituality and personal

Emily Einolander:

growth. These books aim to help readers understand the past and

Emily Einolander:

move forward in a life where they can be real and feel seen.

Emily Einolander:

We'll get more details on Lake drive's mission and model. David

Emily Einolander:

also offers takes on how to determine what works for you

Emily Einolander:

when it comes to choosing a publishing path, and gives some

Emily Einolander:

platform building insights for authors.

David Morris:

And here we go. Hi, Emily.

Emily Einolander:

Thanks for coming and talking with me.

Emily Einolander:

Yeah, thanks for inviting me. David and I work together at

Emily Einolander:

David's press Lake, drive books. And would you tell us a little

Emily Einolander:

bit about that, please?

David Morris:

Well, you're a really great worker. I know, I

David Morris:

know, I know. I knew you meant talk about, like, drive books,

David Morris:

but you, technically, from an editor's point of view, the

David Morris:

logic of your paragraph there meant you were referring to our

David Morris:

working relationship. So I wanted to comment on that.

Emily Einolander:

Well, yeah, okay, yeah, I totally meant to

Emily Einolander:

do that. That was on purpose.

David Morris:

Anybody out there is listening hire Emily without

David Morris:

a doubt. You know when you get those, when you're when you're a

David Morris:

boss, you former employees will they apply to other jobs and

David Morris:

you, I'm maybe it says good things about me, but I get used

David Morris:

as a reference. And they always ask you, or they will often ask

David Morris:

you, would you rehire this person? And I would absolutely

David Morris:

say yes, I am honored if you ever, if you ever left and

David Morris:

needed to come back or whatever. But okay, anyway, yeah, so

David Morris:

there's, there are, I'm already plugging you. You don't have to

David Morris:

plug me.

Emily Einolander:

You're here. Nope, I just got here. Well, I

Emily Einolander:

mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have, I mean, we met when I

Emily Einolander:

walked up to you and said, What do you do? And like, this looks

Emily Einolander:

cool.

David Morris:

So, yeah, at a conference, yeah, well, okay, so

David Morris:

answering your question, yeah, I mean, you're, you're the, you're

David Morris:

the production. I'm sorry, managing editor, managing

David Morris:

editor. Sorry for, for Lake Drive books. We're a small,

David Morris:

independent publishing company. We use the hybrid model, as you

David Morris:

know. But what I like the my my favorite definition of that is

David Morris:

it's conventional publishing with an unconventional financial

David Morris:

model. Because I think a lot of people don't realize just how

David Morris:

much they're used to a certain financial model in book

David Morris:

publishing and and it's as if that's the only model that is

David Morris:

reputable, and I think that's what's changed so much in recent

David Morris:

years. But we're going to get into that. I mean, Lake Drive

David Morris:

books. I started it when I exited the corporate publishing

David Morris:

world after being in it for many, many years, and I wanted

David Morris:

to do my own kind of books. I've always been really fascinated

David Morris:

with how we identify who we are, how culturally, spiritually,

David Morris:

Faith wise. I've always been very interested in people who

David Morris:

are struggling with figuring that out for one reason or

David Morris:

another. And there are a lot of reasons, and there's a lot of

David Morris:

change going on, and people need more authors helping them write

David Morris:

this stuff out, put words to it. So like, where are we going?

David Morris:

What? What is it that we call spiritual in our lives to come?

David Morris:

Not, I don't mean that in, like, the the great beyond life to

David Morris:

come, but no, our lives right now is what I'm talking about,

David Morris:

and that's the kind of spirituality we need to be

David Morris:

talking about more so. So yeah, and it's not strictly religious.

David Morris:

It's, it's very much with a self help bent. I have a psychology

David Morris:

background, and I, you know, at least academically, and I think

David Morris:

that's really the new spirituality in many ways, we

David Morris:

just haven't called it that, which is also a whole sort of

David Morris:

philosophical discussion about how we name religion and

David Morris:

spirituality and psychology. It's a whole philosophical

David Morris:

discussion about what, what is, what when you're talking about

David Morris:

those things. So we do, we do memoir. We've done a lot of

David Morris:

memoir because, you know, we're trying to tell stories that are

David Morris:

gritty, that are on the margins, and storytelling is a great way

David Morris:

to affect change in attitudes and mindsets. Sharing the

David Morris:

experiences we have a few we have a few queer stories, and

David Morris:

one of my favorite lines about them is you might know. Someone

David Morris:

who's gay or trans or intersex, but have you ever really heard

David Morris:

their story from their point of view? And I think, I think that

David Morris:

a lot of us haven't, and I certainly have friends in most

David Morris:

of those categories. And I had no idea once I started reading

David Morris:

these books what I learned, just the just the difficulty, you

David Morris:

know, just the sheer emotional difficulty that goes on. But

David Morris:

there's things like that. There's also just people who

David Morris:

are, you know, struggling with Christianity, or there's a book

David Morris:

about not denying our emotions like grief, which is something

David Morris:

we're trained to do in many religious cultures. We're

David Morris:

supposed to just be happy that, you know, we have our faith, and

David Morris:

that doesn't always help in real life, emotional circumstances.

David Morris:

And I'm really thrilled about a book like that, because that's,

David Morris:

that's, that's up my alley, for sure. Got a book on spiritual

David Morris:

abuse, got a book on sexual abuse and clergy sex abuse. It's

David Morris:

all the real light topics,

Emily Einolander:

yeah, all of those things that are very easy

Emily Einolander:

to process, you know, digestible books here, yeah?

David Morris:

But it's been it's been fun. It's been some of the

David Morris:

hardest work I've ever done in my entire professional career,

David Morris:

the learning curve in the last few years for someone who's in

David Morris:

his probably last third of his professional life, I've had the

David Morris:

hardest learning curve of my professional life and my final

David Morris:

third and but also it's been, without question, the most

David Morris:

gratifying work I've ever done in publishing. I'm so much

David Morris:

because it's grassroots, and I'm doing all kinds wearing all

David Morris:

kinds of hats. In in the business, I'm much closer to the

David Morris:

authors. I mean, when you're an editor, you're closer to an

David Morris:

author. When you're when you're marketer, you're closer to the

David Morris:

author. My last job, I was publisher, and I wasn't as close

David Morris:

to the authors, but now I'm all those things, and it's, it's

David Morris:

just a delight. I was talking to an author the other day, and

David Morris:

I've said this more than once where, like, another author was

David Morris:

talking to me, and she said, You know, I haven't talked to you in

David Morris:

a while. I miss you. We used to talk so much when we were

David Morris:

working on the book. I was like, oh, that's, that's very nice.

David Morris:

Thank you. And I miss them too. I miss them too. It's fun to

David Morris:

become a part of someone's life for a while and there, and for

David Morris:

them to become part of my life for a while and but also it's

David Morris:

gratifying, mainly because of the kind of work we're doing.

David Morris:

You know, we're publishing stories that wouldn't otherwise

David Morris:

get told, partly because of cultural norms being what they

David Morris:

are, and just the the great crush of media in our in our

David Morris:

marketplace today, not having much room for alternative voices

David Morris:

unless, you know, just, just in terms of the mainstream and the

David Morris:

economics of it, so that that that's very, very gratifying to

David Morris:

be telling some of those stories. It's also, you know, I

David Morris:

have, I'm a I'm a PhD in religion and psychology and

David Morris:

society, and I and I want to affect. I want to try to be an

David Morris:

agent of change with with what I've learned and what I know

David Morris:

about how the world works, and I feel like the books I'm doing,

David Morris:

instead of kind of living in the ivory tower, I'm actually on the

David Morris:

street. I'm actually doing stuff that is making a difference in

David Morris:

that way, not that I'm trying to, you know, put put off

David Morris:

academic the value of academic contribution, scholarly

David Morris:

contribution. But especially in religious studies, though

David Morris:

there's a lot of scholarly contribution that goes on, it's

David Morris:

not really helping, and I don't. And those who are helping, you

David Morris:

know who you are, but those who aren't helping, they actually

David Morris:

don't know who they are.

Emily Einolander:

So, oh, that's true. Yeah, that's absolutely

Emily Einolander:

true. Yeah, you're you're applying, you're applying all of

Emily Einolander:

those learnings that you've had to be able to help other people

Emily Einolander:

tell their stories in less academic way, and

David Morris:

that's what I'm doing, too. Publishing wise, I'm

David Morris:

taking, like, all these years of experience, and I'm trying to

David Morris:

apply it to a different audience, at a different

David Morris:

readership, a different author, a different author group. I

David Morris:

mean, the irony of it is, I'm I'm having to learn things about

David Morris:

this group, you know, I thought I knew, or just how to, how to

David Morris:

create networks, and how to market books on this level, and

David Morris:

what is, what is the content really like on this level? Is

David Morris:

it's, it's actually different. I've had to, that's part of the

David Morris:

that's been part of the learning curve, just because I was an

David Morris:

executive at a major publishing company, it doesn't mean I know

David Morris:

all that stuff, even though I thought I did right?

Emily Einolander:

Well, let's talk a little bit about how this

Emily Einolander:

model differs from, you know, the unconventional model that

Emily Einolander:

differs from what traditional publishing does. Like, how does

Emily Einolander:

Lake Drive sort of divert from that? You know, it's. Hybrid

Emily Einolander:

publisher, but you do things your own way. Because that's

Emily Einolander:

sort of the the territory we're in right now is, like, we're

Emily Einolander:

defining what works for us and what doesn't.

David Morris:

Yep, yep, high, yeah, yeah. I would say Lake

David Morris:

Drive is a version of hybrid publishing. And there's, the

David Morris:

thing is, like in publishing, there's, there's definitely a

David Morris:

spectrum of businesses and publishing identities that go on

David Morris:

in within any one sort of nomenclature, you know, or

David Morris:

labels, yeah. I mean, like I said, it's un it's conventional

David Morris:

publishing, but with an unconventional financial model,

David Morris:

I think the thing to do is to do is to back up just a little bit

David Morris:

and say the way publishing works is that it's a very speculative

David Morris:

business. On the whole. There's exceptions, of course, but when

David Morris:

you're publishing to a general readership, every every

David Morris:

publisher is looking for what we call breakaway title. And why

David Morris:

you want that breakaway title is because it pays for the rest of

David Morris:

the business Exactly. So. So you could have I heard, I once heard

David Morris:

the Random House CEO. It's a different CEO now, but I heard

David Morris:

the Random House CEO the time when all that antitrust stuff

David Morris:

was going on in publishing business, there was a there was

David Morris:

court proceedings that were recorded, and a lot of us

David Morris:

publishing people, went and looked at that transcript. I

David Morris:

didn't look at it firsthand, but I read about it, and he was

David Morris:

quoted as saying that, I think I'm not going to get it right,

David Morris:

but it was something like 4% of our books drive 65% of our

David Morris:

business, you know. And for me, and I would feel, I would say

David Morris:

that in publishing in general, like it's more like maybe five

David Morris:

to 10% of your books actually pays for the other 90 to 95% of

David Morris:

what you do. So you're putting a lot of books out every year as a

David Morris:

publisher and on especially when you're working at higher levels,

David Morris:

you're paying some big advances that never earn out. And

David Morris:

sometimes they aren't they, they do so badly you actually lose

David Morris:

money on them because you paid a half a million dollar advance to

David Morris:

somebody like like a musical artist. That happens. That

David Morris:

happens. A lot publishers fall into this trap. I'm kind of

David Morris:

going down rabbit trails, but yeah, but my the whole point is

David Morris:

that that that publishers have to establish, like, this deep

David Morris:

bank account so that they can go out and do all this speculating.

David Morris:

Well, when you're starting out a new or when you're working on

David Morris:

the grassroots level, and you're not, it's, I mean, I'm not, I'm

David Morris:

not in a business that it makes a lot of sense to just go out

David Morris:

and find financers, you know, because, you know, even still,

David Morris:

my books aren't going to perform in a huge way. It's not going to

David Morris:

be a big payoff for investors. So it's sort of a more of a slow

David Morris:

build kind of business, no matter what I do, and honestly,

David Morris:

it can last things up when all that money gets involved.

David Morris:

Granted, I wouldn't mind having a nice a nice angel investor to

David Morris:

help out with some things. It would certainly be nice if we

David Morris:

could do it responsibly, absolutely. But But, but,

David Morris:

because publishers have those those those big bank accounts,

David Morris:

they can go out and do all that speculating when you're starting

David Morris:

out or when you're working at the grassroots level, you've got

David Morris:

to figure out a way to pay for those books up front. And I

David Morris:

didn't even quite understand this when I first started a few

David Morris:

years ago. But if you're talking about paying for freelancers,

David Morris:

you know when it comes to developmental editing, copy

David Morris:

editing, design of the cover, design and composition of the

David Morris:

interior, proofreading, two passes of proofreading. You

David Morris:

know, that's, that's easily, that's easily $7,500 if not

David Morris:

$10,000 right? Yeah, we're talking about professionals to

David Morris:

to, I mean, you can, you can find ways to make it work a

David Morris:

little bit less cheaply, but, but it's like anything in this

David Morris:

world, you'll find that the quality goes down when you start

David Morris:

spending less money than five to 7500 to $10,000 I get by with

David Morris:

five too, because we will handle the developmental edit in house,

David Morris:

meaning, meaning me, but it's worth it. It. I think I'm worth

David Morris:

my my weight in developmental editing, especially at this

David Morris:

point, but, but, yeah, that's the thing. It's, it's, it's

David Morris:

expensive up front to pay for it. So the hybrid, what the

David Morris:

hybrid model does, basically, is it just says you're going to

David Morris:

fund those upfront costs, and then you since. Since the

David Morris:

publisher has no risk involved, they should also reward you with

David Morris:

a higher royalty rate, right? So that's that's what we do as

David Morris:

well. Our royalty rates are 50% higher than conventional

David Morris:

publishing, and I'm committed to that because publishers rely on

David Morris:

authors now more than ever to market books with their with

David Morris:

their online platforms in particular. So I, you know, I

David Morris:

think that authors should be paid better by publishers, but

David Morris:

they still pay the same that they've been paying for the last

David Morris:

100 years, or whatever it's been at least last 20 or 15 years,

Emily Einolander:

the methods of doing it or art, yeah, yeah, so,

David Morris:

but you but I say it's conventional publishing

David Morris:

with unconventional financial model. So I sort of explained

David Morris:

the financial model. What's what's conventional about it is,

David Morris:

and I guess I said that it's, it's professional editing and

David Morris:

design, you know, strong production disciplinary

David Morris:

practices, which you can attest for, yes,

Emily Einolander:

especially like the last couple of weeks.

Emily Einolander:

Yeah.

David Morris:

And then also, also, I mean, we punch way above

David Morris:

our way in terms of marketing and publicity. I mean, I do

David Morris:

something that I think all publishers should do, but they

David Morris:

don't, on the whole and I get into the weeds with my authors

David Morris:

on their platforming and how they're getting the word out

David Morris:

about their book. How's it going with their social media? How's

David Morris:

it going with their email list? Most publishers don't ask those

David Morris:

kinds of questions, and then they don't have, they might have

David Morris:

a newsletter, you know, that they send out to everybody, but

David Morris:

I give, I give one on one, attention to that, both with

David Morris:

with dedicated meetings about that early in the contract

David Morris:

signing stage. But then that becomes a, you know, a part of

David Morris:

the conversation going forward. It's built in that we're always

David Morris:

going to be talking about platform. So when it comes time

David Morris:

to actually market the book where the publisher is relying

David Morris:

on the author's platform, more than ever, I'm already really

David Morris:

familiar with that platform, and I can go and I can really dig in

David Morris:

with them and customize and say, here's, here's where your

David Morris:

strengths are. Here's where my strengths are in terms of

David Morris:

marketing. And, you know, we do a great job with launch teams.

David Morris:

You know, which, which is a known quantity. It's, it's one

David Morris:

of the, to me, it's one of the most powerful ways, one of the

David Morris:

most powerful ways that authors can directly affect their

David Morris:

upfront sales when they put their book out. It's a known

David Morris:

quantity, but we're also really good with publicity. Got a good

David Morris:

sized publicity list, one that really suits well for the kind

David Morris:

of books we do as well, and so I feel like we're punching, we're

David Morris:

punching way above our weight, our weight there. And you also

David Morris:

have to, you also have to have a sense of perspective about

David Morris:

publicity these days. You know, we live in such a segmented

David Morris:

market, a digitally segmented market. So, so what you know, if

David Morris:

you got yourself in your local newspaper. Let's say you even

David Morris:

live in a big city, and you got yourself a book review in the

David Morris:

look in the big city newspaper. Well, number one, nobody reads

David Morris:

print newspapers anymore. They're not even delivered. You

David Morris:

know, hard

Emily Einolander:

they always have paywalls. The

David Morris:

most, the online ones have paywalls. Exactly

David Morris:

which, which, which baffles me, because, you know, if they're

David Morris:

also running ads at, you know, on a lot of those newspaper

David Morris:

sites, and they have paywalls, and then a publisher like me

David Morris:

wants to promote my author's book in Virginia and at the

David Morris:

local paper there, and, oh, I can't promote it, because

David Morris:

everybody's going to hit a paywall to go see the article,

David Morris:

even though they would see the ads, I never it's just that has

David Morris:

not caught up with the times yet in my mind, plus all those ads

David Morris:

are just overwhelming these days, X out of like five things

David Morris:

before you can even read the article.

Emily Einolander:

Yeah, for sure, I actually in the same

Emily Einolander:

vein that you're talking about with the like collaborating on

Emily Einolander:

marketing and publicity, I would like to ask a question that I

Emily Einolander:

think a lot of authors have about the value of having

Emily Einolander:

someone else shepherd that process versus doing it on their

Emily Einolander:

own, because at this point, authors are able to, like at

Emily Einolander:

least have the breakdown Of all of the processes and the things

Emily Einolander:

they might need. They can access those things on their own in a

Emily Einolander:

sort of rudimentary way, and if they're paying for the editing

Emily Einolander:

and the design and all of that stuff, what's, what's the value

Emily Einolander:

of having a company logo on their book if they're paying for

Emily Einolander:

so much of it.

David Morris:

I do think that when you're if you're an author

David Morris:

and you want to publish your book, whether it's even like

David Morris:

some of the more like lower level self publishing services,

David Morris:

will offer marketing services, I don't really think they do a

David Morris:

whole lot. Uh, they maybe have an email list, and they send out

David Morris:

an email blast, but I think it's pretty mass emailing, which is

David Morris:

not, which is, which is a very standard tactic. But I don't

David Morris:

think they're curating it very well. I don't, I doubt there's

David Morris:

much nudging and following up going on. I doubt there's any

David Morris:

leveraging of a personal relationship with a media

David Morris:

outlet, which can happen from varying publishers with varying

David Morris:

types of books. But so I think, because you can easily spend

David Morris:

like they can add on, you know, I don't know what they do, but

David Morris:

you know, 10,000 $15,000 for a marketing a publicity package at

David Morris:

a hybrid publisher or even a self publisher. And I, I would

David Morris:

caution most of the time, you probably shouldn't

Emily Einolander:

do that. So the marketing ones are the most

Emily Einolander:

tenuous. You would say, like those, those types of services

David Morris:

that add on? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, every I

David Morris:

think there's exceptions where there's good stuff going on,

David Morris:

depending on the kind of book it is, again, and the kind of

David Morris:

author we're talking about. That's the thing about

David Morris:

publishing. You know, it's always like, what's the context

David Morris:

here? People use the same terms, but they mean different things,

David Morris:

or they're in different contexts. And so you kind of

David Morris:

have to define those things, you know, because there are hybrid

David Morris:

publishers, and you've you've mentioned this is that are

David Morris:

working really well for affluent folks who are business people

David Morris:

who want to have sort of a calling card, and maybe they

David Morris:

even get their book on a bestseller list for a week or

David Morris:

something like that, but, or maybe they'd even do better, but

David Morris:

most the time, they don't, most the time, it's like 250 initial

David Morris:

books, and then they sell copies every time they go speaking or

David Morris:

something like that.

Emily Einolander:

And there can be value if they don't expect to

Emily Einolander:

make a ton of money on the actual book,

David Morris:

and if it gets them what they want, they may

David Morris:

have a big enough bank account where spending 2530, or even

David Morris:

$50,000 is some high rep publishers charge is, you know,

David Morris:

that's, that's enough, that's okay for them, because otherwise

David Morris:

they wouldn't get it right. Exactly it's, it's supply and

David Morris:

demand. And so, you know, if you want a reputable hybrid

David Morris:

publisher that does a really good job with with editing and

David Morris:

production and design, it might be worth $50,000 to you, but for

David Morris:

the average aspiring author, no, ain't, no way that's a really

David Morris:

dumb idea.

Emily Einolander:

Yeah, that's that's too much.

David Morris:

Yeah, yeah. And I think there's some authors where

David Morris:

it's where they even have the money that they could spend on

David Morris:

that. But, and they're not the affluent business person trying

David Morris:

to create a calling card. They actually just want to create a

David Morris:

book that people are going to read and and they still could

David Morris:

get enticed to some of those big, big package publishers,

David Morris:

service oriented, hybrid publishers. And that feels

David Morris:

exploitative to me. It does. I, you know, like spending that

David Morris:

much money on a book hardly anybody's going to read. Just

David Morris:

tell the person to go, you know, write it into a Word file and

David Morris:

send it to your best friends and leave it at that. You know?

Emily Einolander:

Well, I mean, when someone does have a book

Emily Einolander:

that they either want to write, and like, I'm specifying, they

Emily Einolander:

want to do it themselves. They don't want to hire a ghost

Emily Einolander:

writer if they want to do it, do their own book. They want to

Emily Einolander:

sell their own book and get a decent amount of sales. How do

Emily Einolander:

they look at it? And just like, decide which path to go to,

Emily Einolander:

like, either, Should I, should I spend a lot of time sending this

Emily Einolander:

in traditional publishers? Should I look for a hybrid

Emily Einolander:

publisher, or should I just try to do everything myself? Right?

Emily Einolander:

What criteria would you say someone should use to decide?

David Morris:

I think, I think the first thing to realize is

David Morris:

that going into being being an author, consider it a part time

David Morris:

job, if not a full time job. And is, you know, so it means

David Morris:

educating yourself about publishing. It means getting

David Morris:

involved in every aspect of it. I don't mean control in terms of

David Morris:

things like design and, you know, editing and so on. I mean,

David Morris:

learn about how the business works. Learn about the different

David Morris:

options. I think that strict self publishing, total DIY,

David Morris:

through Amazon, KDP or Ingram Spark is, is great. Actually,

David Morris:

it's, it's, it's not that difficult to use. However, there

David Morris:

is a big learning curve, and it takes time, and it can be

David Morris:

frustrating, and there's a lot of unknowns, and will you get

David Morris:

the kind of result that you want? I know of an author right

David Morris:

now who is looking to publish it on KDP, and this author

David Morris:

realized, oh, you can't do. Pre orders through KDP for the print

David Morris:

book. So I've got a how do I how do I deal with that? That's a

David Morris:

weird bugaboo about Amazon KDP. Well, you know, there's a lot of

David Morris:

hair pulling moments like that. I think when you start out

David Morris:

DIYing it. I did that with my own, my own dissertation. I

David Morris:

polished it up, and it was the guinea pig book for, like, drive

David Morris:

books. I mean, I was said I was using it in a process to learn

David Morris:

about, you know, setting up a small book business. But it was,

David Morris:

you know, it's challenging to, you know, even if you're going

David Morris:

to typeset it in Word, if you're going to DIY everything, it is a

David Morris:

long time consuming process. And again, it depends. Is it

David Morris:

nonfiction? Is it fiction? You know, what are we talking about?

David Morris:

Are there illustrations? Are there tables? Are there

David Morris:

endnotes? It can get really detailed fast on you, depending

David Morris:

on what it is, or maybe you're publishing something pretty

David Morris:

simple. And no worries, you know,

Emily Einolander:

editor that isn't just going to put your

Emily Einolander:

stuff into chat, GPT, like, yeah, yeah. Like, how do you

Emily Einolander:

find people that you can trust to do all this stuff?

David Morris:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can, I mean, there's

David Morris:

services like reeds, which has a lot of great freelancers, and

David Morris:

they vet them pretty carefully, but so that's DIY in it. Then

David Morris:

there's self publishing, which is much more like assembly line,

David Morris:

mass market publishing. I don't want to name too many names, but

David Morris:

like, author house is known as one that sort of like, is a it's

David Morris:

a white label brand for other self publishing services that

David Morris:

are out there.

Emily Einolander:

I think there's Hay House has one also,

Emily Einolander:

but I can't, yep,

David Morris:

a lot of the major publishers actually have a

David Morris:

brand, have a brand like that. And then there's hybrid

David Morris:

publishing, and that can be a whole spectrum of like, you

David Morris:

know, mom and pop, one person setups, which is kind of what

David Morris:

Lake Drive is, although we're really, like a one plus plus two

David Morris:

part time setup, plus, we use a lot of great freelancers, so

David Morris:

we're not doing it all here to larger operations that do a lot

David Morris:

more titles. They have the big ticket invoices for their

David Morris:

services. They break them down. And so, yeah, I mean, there's,

David Morris:

there's those different options. What you know, you can go on to

David Morris:

the independent book Publishers Association website, and they

David Morris:

have criteria for hybrid publishers. A lot of times in

David Morris:

the past, they've identified that criteria. As to me, one of

David Morris:

the things that stands out is that you have what's called

David Morris:

distribution, full distribution of your books, which is kind of

David Morris:

lingo, e term for you have some access to a sales team that's

David Morris:

pitching your book to bookstores. But that's a bit,

David Morris:

that's a bit of an antiquated notion. Yeah, there's, there's,

David Morris:

you know, book bookstores have just faded. They, they still

David Morris:

aren't what they were 25 years ago, and maybe there's more of

David Morris:

them out there now. Barnes and Noble has been on a comeback,

David Morris:

doing making smaller footprint stores finally, which is really

David Morris:

smart. Good of good for them, but it's still under 700 stores

David Morris:

nationwide, in the US. I mean, that's not that many you know.

David Morris:

Think of all the Walgreens there are out there. It's not even

David Morris:

close. And and, you know, they're still carrying just sort

David Morris:

of the top listed titles, you know, by and large, by and

David Morris:

large, I or even think of like an independent bookstore in your

David Morris:

local community. We've got one here where I live in Michigan,

David Morris:

and we've got several actually, and some are new. It's really

David Morris:

cool, but I work in religion and spirituality titles. They've got

David Morris:

18 inches of shelf space for that, and they're carrying CS

David Morris:

Lewis,

Emily Einolander:

yes, bunch of Enneagram stuff.

David Morris:

They're carrying all this. I mean, there's I went

David Morris:

this last time. Was like, Okay, I didn't expect them to have

David Morris:

that shelf there. That's nice, but they still had a lot of

David Morris:

other things taking up most of that shelf space. Nothing from

David Morris:

an independent publisher,

Emily Einolander:

20 copies of The Purpose Driven Life,

Emily Einolander:

exactly.

David Morris:

So does that really matter? Do you need a

David Morris:

sales team for your your especially if you're a one

David Morris:

person Author, Publisher, do you really need a sales team? Or

David Morris:

even if you're a hybrid publisher that's putting out

David Morris:

five to six titles a year, like like Lake derived books, do you

David Morris:

really need a sales team? It's a great question. You know, books

David Morris:

are arguably marketed more by the author platform. Then, see

David Morris:

the thing is, sales teams used to also be the functional

David Morris:

equivalent of marketing. They pushed your book out into the

David Morris:

marketplace. The bookstores were a marketing mechanism, but that

David Morris:

was when, that was when the only way you could get a book was by

David Morris:

going to a bookstore. Now books are a click away, and you've got

David Morris:

it in maybe even 24 hours or less. So that just changed

David Morris:

things. All the all the foot traffic is now online, and the

David Morris:

way to market is online. And so with online author platforms,

David Morris:

that's that's arguably more where you should be putting your

David Morris:

money and not setting up a whole distribution feature of your

David Morris:

hybrid publisher now, and honestly, with if you're using

David Morris:

some of these platforms for publishing, especially Ingram

David Morris:

Spark or Ingram Lightning Source, they get the book

David Morris:

everywhere in books in English language are sold. I mean,

David Morris:

that's global. Yeah, yeah, Amazon arguably does that too,

David Morris:

but, but with Amazon bookstores, or I don't know, most people are

David Morris:

not using Amazon to to distribute exclusively

David Morris:

throughout the world. They just use Amazon for the Amazon

David Morris:

ecosystem, and they're using room spark to get to the rest of

David Morris:

the world. That's what we do at Lake Drive. And that's

David Morris:

distribution. I mean, that's, that's worldwide distribution

David Morris:

for a little, tiny publisher.

Emily Einolander:

Yeah, it's amazing. And I know that there's

Emily Einolander:

a lot of just with my experience with booksellers, if, if they

Emily Einolander:

have an account with someone, that's when they're going to

Emily Einolander:

order it. So if someone doesn't have an account with Ingram,

Emily Einolander:

right, then they're just like, Nope, we're just not going to do

Emily Einolander:

that. Because there's all these, like, application processes that

Emily Einolander:

bookstores have to do to be able to, like, work with different

Emily Einolander:

distributors. So most of them just don't bother going with

Emily Einolander:

something different. Also, I think the brick and with the

Emily Einolander:

brick and mortars, there's a little bit of animosity in there

Emily Einolander:

too, which, yes, fair enough

David Morris:

with Amazon. Yeah, yeah. The other thing to mention

David Morris:

about hybrid publishers that I think stands out in terms of

David Morris:

what makes them different from a self publisher, or, you know,

David Morris:

like, like we were mentioning before, not the DIY level, where

David Morris:

you're doing it all yourself, but the self publishing service

David Morris:

and and maybe even across the spectrum of different hybrid

David Morris:

publishers, is the question of, how much do they actually curate

David Morris:

the books that they do, or are they just publishing whatever

David Morris:

comes their way because someone is paying them? And I think, I

David Morris:

think that there are plenty of hybrid publishers where you can

David Morris:

look at their you can look at their titles and go, I don't

David Morris:

really see an identity here. And why is that identity important?

David Morris:

I think it's important because it shows you that you work with

David Morris:

editors who understand your content, the genre that you're

David Morris:

in. It means you're working with a publisher who understands the

David Morris:

right media outlets, the right professional and cultural

David Morris:

networks, and especially in the area of nonfiction,

David Morris:

spirituality, books, that stuff matters a lot. It's not like

David Morris:

publishing, you know, a really classic category like romance.

David Morris:

So, yeah, I think, I think that's something, that's

David Morris:

something to look out for. I don't mean to be ungracious

David Morris:

about publishers that the highway publishers that are not

David Morris:

being that discerning about or they're not. I mean, because

David Morris:

it's different, it's different from different again, it's

David Morris:

different contexts for different situation.

Emily Einolander:

There's a lot of traditional publishers who

Emily Einolander:

like, if you just take a look at their catalog, and you don't

Emily Einolander:

already know who they are, they might seem like they're all over

Emily Einolander:

the map as well, right?

David Morris:

There's that too, right? That's true. That's very

David Morris:

fair. I think that's one of the other big criteria there. And

David Morris:

then there's, you know, then there's the big question of,

David Morris:

should I just try to get to a conventional publisher? Should I

David Morris:

work through an agent that I get that I actually illiterate agent

David Morris:

as well? So I'm working on the grassroots level. I'm not trying

David Morris:

to, you know this is not, this is not toxic capitalism by any

David Morris:

means. I'll show you my bank account if you're if you don't

David Morris:

believe me, I have people coming to me all the time who want me.

David Morris:

They think they need me as a litter agent for them, what

David Morris:

they're really looking for, I'm finding out, though, what they

David Morris:

really need is more of a publishing coach, writing coach,

David Morris:

publishing coach. You know, they, they, especially when

David Morris:

you're talking about nonfiction books, the part of platform

David Morris:

starts to really matter. I mean, it matters no matter what you

David Morris:

do. But in nonfiction publishing, where you have, like

David Morris:

a where you're an expert on a topic, or you've got a great

David Morris:

memoir, especially if you've got a great memoir, you also really

David Morris:

need a good platform to sell it. There's this idea that I just

David Morris:

need to find a publisher, and then they'll pitch the book to

David Morris:

the world for me. Well, yeah, there is still value to that,

David Morris:

and it for certain contexts that can make a lot of sense, and

David Morris:

that still goes on a very high level. But for the average

David Morris:

person you know, are you really, do you really have that

David Morris:

interesting of a story that's really going to, you know, break

David Morris:

through, even if you do, you might get that big public book,

David Morris:

big publisher, book publishing deal. But remember, again,

David Morris:

they're speculating. On you. You know, there you might be one of

David Morris:

those books that they plan on losing money, that they're

David Morris:

they're willing to risk losing money on. It's not a done deal.

David Morris:

It's not like you've gotten the golden ticket at the will to the

David Morris:

Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory by any means they you. You mean,

David Morris:

you mean as much to them as a speculating for gold at the Gold

David Morris:

Rush. Think about that sometimes, when you want to go

David Morris:

with a big publisher and get an agent and so on, think about

David Morris:

that. There's still some of those publishers are still

David Morris:

looking for 50,000 Instagram followers or 100,000 Tiktok

David Morris:

followers, or 10,000 member email list or substack e

David Morris:

newsletter. They they really go gaga over those things,

David Morris:

depending on the publisher. And I've seen it, they go, you know,

David Morris:

they go that because that's, that's known quantity for them.

David Morris:

And they can, they can make things happen. They can work

David Morris:

with that. So I don't, so a lot of times I have to tell folks,

David Morris:

you just, you're just not quite ready. They're ready yet. But

David Morris:

oftentimes I get people pitching me with a book, with a book,

David Morris:

they've a manuscript, even that they've written, and there's no

David Morris:

like, there's not much in the way of, like a professional

David Morris:

network. They're not out there speaking or creating content

David Morris:

already that where they've become known, even on a small

David Morris:

scale. And that's what I say, is like, start looking at some of

David Morris:

these other mediums, like social media and E newsletters, as just

David Morris:

another medium to get your ideas out there, and start building an

David Morris:

audience, and then they're going to want the more immersive,

David Morris:

60,000 word book from you.

Emily Einolander:

Yeah, that's a that's a tough truth for a lot

Emily Einolander:

of people to deal with, I think, is just they, they look at the

Emily Einolander:

sheer amount of followers that most people who are getting

Emily Einolander:

published right now have, and just think, well, why should I

Emily Einolander:

even bother like, yeah, there's no

David Morris:

hope here. And that can be discouraging. That's

David Morris:

true.

Emily Einolander:

Yeah, exactly so as a small press like, what,

Emily Einolander:

what kind of platform would you look for, and what would, what

Emily Einolander:

would play into your decision if you decide to go for smaller

Emily Einolander:

versus bigger?

David Morris:

Yeah, that's a that's a hard question to

David Morris:

answer. Sometimes I think, I think, let's just say 5000

David Morris:

followers on a platform like Instagram, Tiktok usually means

David Morris:

you need to have more because of just the way that it's more

David Morris:

ephemeral. I guess is that the right word?

Emily Einolander:

I think so, yeah, sure, it'll work,

David Morris:

but it's not so much that number as it is also,

David Morris:

are you growing? Are you still attracting new people, new

David Morris:

followers? And then also, are people engaging with your

David Morris:

social, with your are they? Are they? Are they liking, and are

David Morris:

they commenting and are they sharing? I think you can come.

David Morris:

You can like, line up 10 authors who have 5000 Instagram

David Morris:

followers, and you'll find or five or 10 people with 5000

David Morris:

Instagram followings, and you'll find a great variety of how many

David Morris:

people are actually commenting on their their posts. And so I

David Morris:

look for that when I mean, so you could have maybe just 1000

David Morris:

but if you, if you've got, like, a really, you know, active

David Morris:

following, and you're growing at the same time, you could be

David Morris:

worth more than somebody with 5000 at least, for the future.

David Morris:

And publishing is a long play, so I want to set up long term

David Morris:

relationships to authors. I don't want to just be like a one

David Morris:

off service. No way. That's That's not what I'm here for

David Morris:

Yeah, so I'd say that, and then and then with email, it's, it's

David Morris:

probably like at least 1500 would be ideal. But, you know,

David Morris:

I've published authors with neither of those things, but

David Morris:

they had incredible professional networks. And they they

David Morris:

connected with their professional again, there's an

David Morris:

academic I've published, a professor who is really well

David Morris:

connected in his academic community, and he's out speaking

David Morris:

quite often, and he's in front of people. And I was really

David Morris:

surprised. I thought, Oh, this is not going to sell. But then,

David Morris:

you know, his his institution actually took the launch team

David Morris:

recruitment email and published it in their own blog, and

David Morris:

suddenly this author that I just I loved I loved it, I loved him,

David Morris:

and I wanted to publish it absolutely, but I wasn't sure,

David Morris:

you know, I wasn't sure how it was going to do, didn't think,

David Morris:

didn't have a high expectation. And then all of a sudden, he's

David Morris:

generated the biggest launch team of any of my authors, and

David Morris:

we sold a lot of books up front, and the book continues to sell

David Morris:

nicely. I'm very happy with it, and I hope he is too.

Emily Einolander:

This is a little off book, but do you have

Emily Einolander:

any like recommendations for marketing for introverts?

Emily Einolander:

Because, I mean, I know most writers probably are to a

Emily Einolander:

certain extent, but the need to. Reach out to people on social

Emily Einolander:

media and, like, have some kind of presence in the world that

Emily Einolander:

isn't just their book. Like, is really daunting.

David Morris:

Sometimes, I'd say number one, don't, don't read

David Morris:

all of the marketing advice that's out there, because it can

David Morris:

be pretty shallow. And, you know, read some of it, but then

David Morris:

that's enough. Start. Try to go deeper, try to understand it in

David Morris:

a deeper way. I always single out this one sub stack guy named

David Morris:

Dan blank, spelled just like it sounds, and his his substack is

David Morris:

called the creative shift. And what I haven't listened or I

David Morris:

haven't watched read one of his posts in a while, but he is

David Morris:

pretty consistent with helping you just get into the right

David Morris:

mindset for what social media marketing or what talking about

David Morris:

yourself. Basically, he says it's about relationships. Yeah,

David Morris:

it's not about marketing. It's about relationships. And he's

David Morris:

not just saying that to make a euphemism out of marketing. He's

David Morris:

not. It's about genuine connection and authenticity. And

David Morris:

if you get into his stuff and you read it consistently, you'll

David Morris:

start getting it, you'll start understanding and you'll start

David Morris:

seeing some of these mediums, even as introverts, and I'm one,

David Morris:

you'll start seeing them as a way to create connection. Maybe

David Morris:

you don't want connection as an introvert, yeah. But if you want

David Morris:

to be an author, you've got to be putting yourself out there.

David Morris:

What you've got to do is find the right kind of guidance and

David Morris:

advice and start coming up with your own sort of philosophy

David Morris:

about how to use it. And because there's, you know, there's as

David Morris:

many ways of using social media as there are people out there, I

David Morris:

guess. And yeah, I think that, I think that that's possibility. I

David Morris:

do think that there are experts out there who can help, and Dan,

David Morris:

Dan does that with authors. There's a lot of people, though,

David Morris:

who are kind of like mass marketing their services in that

David Morris:

way. And that that's okay, I think, to an extent, but I think

David Morris:

it's worthwhile doing those kinds of webinars or short term

David Morris:

studies, but, but I think it again, it kind of gets back to

David Morris:

context, you know, like I've seen a lot. I've seen I know

David Morris:

someone who does that stuff for people who are doing mostly

David Morris:

business books, and if you're writing fiction or you're doing

David Morris:

a memoir, it's a different game. And when it comes to getting

David Morris:

yourself out there and establishing an audience, you

David Morris:

know, and I wish there was more people out there helping people

David Morris:

do this and teaching them how to do it, I actually think

David Morris:

publishers have some have a lot of responsibility in this, and I

David Morris:

don't see them doing that. I think it's worthwhile to get

David Morris:

help. This is not a speech you have to give most people who are

David Morris:

under 30 to go out, to go out and find a way to promote

David Morris:

yourself on social

Emily Einolander:

media like they already know is what you're

Emily Einolander:

saying.

David Morris:

Yeah, yeah. The greatest thing about social

David Morris:

media is, especially as an author, is that you can more

David Morris:

than ever. You can have a direct connection to your readers, and

David Morris:

you can get direct feedback right away. You can you can

David Morris:

create online community that can lead to real community. And I

David Morris:

think that's actually pretty exciting, if you can kind of get

David Morris:

into that mental space and find a way of using it that works for

David Morris:

you, but getting help, getting help from what's reputable

David Morris:

people are really taking the time to sort of customize what

David Morris:

it is you need. I think that would be really valuable. If you

David Morris:

can find, if you can find instructions on that customize

David Morris:

to who you are, that would be very valuable.

Emily Einolander:

Big thanks to David for coming on the show and

Emily Einolander:

providing all of these insights about hybrid publishing and ways

Emily Einolander:

to improve your platform as an author. And I'll include the

Emily Einolander:

link to the Lake Drive website so you can check out all of the

Emily Einolander:

wonderful books we've got there. You can find both me, M

Emily Einolander:

Einolander and hybrid pub scout on LinkedIn, my website,

Emily Einolander:

hybridpubscout.com or you can find me on blue sky at Emily, I

Emily Einolander:

know you can also email me emily@hybridpubscout.com and be

Emily Einolander:

sure to check the show notes for links referenced in the episode,

Emily Einolander:

as well as ones to sign up for plotter with the HPS affiliate

Emily Einolander:

code And to visit HPs bookshop.org shop. Thanks for

Emily Einolander:

listening. You.

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