Join us as Alicia Gaiero, owner of Nauti Sisters Sea Farm talks about what it's like to be an oyster farmer on a small-scale oyster farm in Yarmouth, Maine. Alicia, an impressive young entrepreneur and talks about the trials, tribulations, and beauty of being out on the water and growing her own product!

Check out her website!

Nauti Sisters - Alicia Gaiero

Corinne

Welcome to the Salty Talks podcast. I'm your host, Corinne Noufi, and I'm the aquaculture communications specialist with the Aquaculture Research Institute. So today I'm here with my friend Alicia, who's an oyster farmer, and I'm going to turn it over to her to introduce herself more.

Alicia

Corinne

Thanks. So before we get into the process of what an oyster farm is like and what your day looks like, I'm just curious of how you got into this industry in the first place, if you study something related in college or if this kind of came out of left field.

Alicia

Yeah. So initially I became interested in aquaculture when a large scale salmon farm announced that they were going to be coming to my community. And I ended up becoming really involved in the public process and learning about land based aquaculture versus net pen salmon aquaculture. Was that up in Belfast? Yeah, and it's kind of become a rabbit hole I've never come out of. I ended up working with two organizations as an intern for the New England Ocean Cluster and Main Oyster Company. And through both of those groups, I was able to is it upwards of, like, 20 farms? And I still didn't think I would be starting my own by any means. I thought I would head on to graduate school and study. Ocean food systems. But life had a different path in store, and on the day that I was deciding whether or not I was going to graduate school, I ended up putting a deposit down on oyster gear instead. So I kind of just jumped in and haven't looked back.

Corinne

That's awesome. So it sounds like you had worked on other farms prior to this. This wasn't obviously your first experience farm farming then, on your own farm?

Alicia

Yeah. No, it wasn't my first experience. I didn't go in entirely blind, though. I learned so much. One of the things I did while working at Maine Oyster Company is when we receive deliveries at the restaurant, I just started talking to farmers and asking, hey, can I come out on your farm? And some people thought I wanted to visit, and I was like, no, I want to work. I want to learn. I want to see what you're doing. I want to get a better understanding on the water. I want to become more comfortable on the water, and ended up having pretty great success doing that. Most people welcomed me with open arms, and some of those people are the ones who encouraged me to go ahead and start my own farm, which still feels crazy.

Corinne

So it sounds like you had a bit of mentorship and other people teaching you about foster farming, but has there been a lot of self education as well?

Alicia

Yeah, there definitely has been varying levels of mentorship from one person in particular, Tom Hennegar at Madeleine Point Oyster Farm. He was kind of the person who took me under his wing. He was the guy who was like, hey, you should start your own farm. I'll help you. And that just still felt crazy. But he's been a great resource in helping me learn to set anchors. I went out with his son and we set my helix anchors, and then he helped me set my lines and my equipment and learned to understand why we design farms the way that ours are designed, which is a long line system with laterals to oyster cages. All of those different things were really helpful and educational. I absolutely would not be in such a sound position with the farm without them. But there's also been a lot of self learning and education when it comes to sitting down and watching YouTube, learning to tie different knots, and designing a floating bag farm so that I can work more independently and not be as reliant on additional help. So that's not a farming method? Most of the farms I'd visited were utilizing. It's definitely a popular method, but one I had significantly less exposure to. But people in Aquaculture have been really helpful and forthcoming in sharing knowledge and education, so I could not have done it independently.

Corinne

That's so great to hear. So earlier this winter, I had the opportunity to go out on the water with Alicia and harvest some oysters from her farm. And from that experience, it seems like you've got to be pretty independent in what you do, but it's also a lot of hard physical work. So is it challenging running a business on your own and being young and mostly doing it all by yourself?

Alicia

Yeah, definitely. Initially I'd never hoped or anticipated the goal was to never work alone on the water. And that really evolved late summer in past December where I found myself working on the water independently almost every day and beyond working on the water alone, that includes preparing all the equipment or anything I may need for harvest, getting gas, doing the books, management orders, all of those things. And it's certainly overwhelming. I've definitely taken to trying to utilize different pieces of seafood tech to try to kind of boost my efficiency. I think a lot of people overlook it as a small scale farm, investing in things that feel like an additional expense, but I really try to say I pay for this and I value my time more. And those things have been really helpful, like the e tagging systems or the farm management like apps, just trying to make sure I know where everything is because the goal is that one day maybe the firearm can run without me, but right now it definitely can't.

Corinne

What would you say is the best part about working for yourself?

Alicia

It's definitely a flexible job. I've been really fortunate that recently I've had some personal kind of family crises and I've been the one that's been had the most flexibility to just step up and take on more responsibility with my family and trying to help in ways that like a traditional job would have really limited me in taking off for a few days, particularly in the wintertime. Right now, all of the oysters are overwintered on the bottom, so there's a lot less demanding work. That being said, I'm probably dilly dallying on some really important things, but there. They'll get done, but I enjoy working for myself. But the other thing is that you never leave work. So even when you're out with people or having dinner, it's on your mind and it really commands your attention, even if you don't want it to. In this next year, I'm hoping to find a better level of balance, but it's definitely daunting. I can't even imagine and doing that all by myself.

Corinne

So getting into oysters now, before we jump into what the farming is like, I just want to touch on the oyster lifecycle real quick. So I think a lot of listeners might not be totally sure what an oyster farm looks like. So really simplified after fertilization the oysters in its larval stage, so it's really small, swimming around still, and then it becomes spat, which is settling down on a surface and becoming sessile and then growing into an adult oyster, which is what I think we can all picture. So when you farm, are you getting the oysters in their larval stage or their spat stage? What does it look like when you begin the farming process of growing an oyster?

Alicia

So when I purchased my oysters, I purchased from a hatchery, and they are in kind of even beyond like a true spat and moving into what we call seed. They're kind of the same, but I purchase the largest size spat that I'm able to get. I call it my insurance policy. It gives me a level of confidence that the bigger they are, the less likely I am to damage them, lose them mismanage. You just have high risk when you have really small oysters. And so for me, that's been a decision I've made. It also gives me a little extra time before they come to be seated on the farm. If I were to get really small oysters, say one to 4 mm, I'd be having them in early June, some people late May that they'll plant, and I get the luxury, in my opinion, of getting them early July. So I kind of get the farm up and running and then seed, and then that'll grow for about two years on the farm before it is ready to go to market size product. But for me, I'm in the nine to 13 millimeter range, so it's definitely a bigger product than what a large number of larger scale farmers would get.

Corinne

So if it takes two years for the oysters to grow into what is a finished product, what are you doing in those two years with the oysters? And are you growing oysters at different stages so that each year you're having a product?

Alicia

Yeah. So each year, I add an additional seed class to the farm. And in that time, as they grow, they're in these bags. And you'd like to kind of have a certain stocking density, which is about a quarter of a bag. And as they grow, they'll sometimes have to three quarters of the bag will fill up. And so I'm constantly splitting the bags into more bags to improve, bring that back to an appropriate stocking density. And I usually use a piece of equipment called a tumbler to do that. The tumbler helps sort the seed by size. So I'll have three sizes, a small, medium, and large. And I have two different tube sizes for different whether it's a small feed, like a first year product versus the second year moving into market size product. And then that tumbler also will break down the shell and help you to create a better cup. One of the things is for really, like, desirable oyster is nice shape, good cup. It improves the shell density, so it's less likely to break when you chuck it, which is really attractive for chefs and raw bars, and it creates a really beautiful product. When I went out with you, we took a boat to the farm site, and there were these lines of what looked like floating bags or cages. Is this how most people are growing oysters? I would say that most of the farms that I visited are using a variation of an oyster cage between two and six bags. They have a number of different sizes that really matter on the the site location, the water depth on what may work best for you. Also, I think that there's a pretty popular use of the single floating bags and that's because they're so much more accessible for a small scale farmer. They're not necessarily perfect for people doing millions of oysters, but at a moderate scale, they work really well. I can operate independently. I think a lot of people farm in reverse to what I do, which is I start my seed in oyster, grow cages, and then I move them to the floating bags where most people want them in the bags because they're easier to manage and flip and you can usually have them in shallower or warmer areas. But I do that because where I finish my product, it is shallow and warm also. But it's a lot more difficult for me to find someone to harvest. And it doesn't require as much physically demand work as it does to manage the seed and the cages. So I've kind of done it in reverse and that is what works well for me. But I would say those are probably the two most popular methods.

Corinne

So when you go to harvest them, are you hand picking them?

Alicia

So I generally hand pick the oysters based on size through a predetermined section of oysters that are considered markets. Those are the ones coming out of the largest size hole or tube of the tumbler. And then usually there's a quick hand store that day and then they'll probably be on the farm for a week or two before they're harvested to ensure, because we're actually like it's cutting a fingernail or you're damaging the oyster when you tumble it. So you don't usually want to harvest them right from being tumbled. You want to give them an opportunity to feed and recover a little bit so they'll have the longest shell flies, but so that the shell isn't too brittle that it will break and cause shell to be in the oyster, taking them out of the bags and then hand sorting and counting them.

Corinne

So what does a quality oyster look like?

Alicia

It's back to that. Any oyster is a good oyster, I think, as long as it's been handled appropriately for biosecurity. I think that it's kind of silly sometimes how cut up we get on a really pretty product. Ultimately, it's doing a good service for the ocean by helping to filter our water, improve the water quality balance and ensuring that our waters are over nutrient rich. But a really beautiful oyster is something with that nice cup in shape. I think the market is lending itself to prefer smaller sized oysters. It used to be three inch and above and now we're seeing a lot of people prefer cocktail or petite. And so I'm finding that I'm selling majority of my product to that market and honestly, that benefits me because I capture some price with a smaller oyster, so it spends less time on the farm, which improves efficiency in handling it. And it's really beautiful product. And so I do have that deep cut from tumbling four to five times this summer, which is probably more than most people tumble. And some of that is because of poor farm management accidentally tumbling things twice. And that's where the data management apps help a lot.

Corinne

So if you didn't tumble them, they would just get kind of like a wonky, like horn shaped shell or something.

Alicia

Yeah. When they grow on the bottom in areas that are good or in nature, they're generally attached to something. And there's natural methods of tumbling in a way like the ocean current is constantly moving it or different things. When we have it in this equipment, it takes significantly more flow of water to cause that natural tumble. And so that's why we use the machine. But they do tend to grow if you let them go too long, where they can access water. So if they're overstocked, they tend to grow a little bit wonkier, where they're just trying to reach for space and for access to that flow. And so I call them like toenails, which they just get, like grown out and long and skinny and curl a little bit. And you can correct that with a tone tumbler, but sometimes they can get a little too far gone. Sometimes if you don't tumble them regularly in their bags, they'll grow into the equipment and have a shape like the bag. It happens to all of us. But the goal is that you do it as little as possible and you try to keep that quality high.

Corinne

Yeah. I think I said this to you before, but it would be cool if there was, like, imperfect produce of oysters. I just want to eat the oyster.

Alicia

Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is, like, you want to have this superior product, but ultimately I find that people want my oysters whether or not they're pretty, and I've never really had a complaint about them. And if there is one, I'm happy I get to hear it. Honestly, I think that there totally should be a market for, like, shucking. Uglies. There is in some states. In areas where the growing period is significantly faster, they have shucking markets. So they'll grow oysters out and have very little maintenance beyond biofouling management and stocking density. They don't tumble. They just try to take care of those products, and then they go to a shucking house for a reduced price, but it required way less work. And then they're sold more by a bushel or by the pound versus by the piece. And those are the things that you'll see oyster, pole boys and things like that. It's kind of sacrificial to do that in Maine because it takes such a long time to make that product. It's like, how could you?

Corinne

Yeah, man. You gave me, I think, some of the quote, discards before Thanksgiving. They tasted great. So it sounds like you're harvesting them and you're selling them whole to different restaurants around Portland. Or are you also shucking them too?

Alicia

Predominantly, my market is just doing sales to restaurants. I don't hold all the licensing to do direct to consumer sales or catering events. I've worked with other people on catering events or sold my oyster. Two people with appropriate licensing for that and had really good success. But the nature of being a young person and being a little more not necessarily nomadic, but I don't own a home. I don't own a location or facility where I can have a traditional dealer's license and. For me, that means that it limits a little bit of my sales, but it also doesn't harm my sales. It just limits the market that I'm accessing. But I've not hit too many barriers as a result. And so for me, that works right now. But in the future, that's definitely something I hope to pursue beyond just selling Direct to restaurant or to shellfish dealers.

Corinne

So while we're on the culinary side of oysters, thinking in terms of wine really quickly, so, like, temperature, soil, all of that is affecting grapes when you grow them for wine, which then affects the taste of the wine, does water temperature, mineral like depth that the oysters grown at have any effect on the oyster flavor?

Alicia

Yeah, and in the oyster realm, we're now calling that merroir like terroir and wine and those flavor profiles. So the higher the salinity, the saltier the oyster. If you have a bottom grown product versus a surface grown product, even at the same site, it's remarkable the flavor profile differences. It's not like you're consuming heavy metals, but people say things have, like, a metallica finish or a cucumber finish. And this is something that's really evolving rapidly in oysters. It's like tasting books and tasting notes and profiles and identifying those and describing them. And it's really creating, like, a very unique product in the seafood world because because it's a raw product, you don't necessarily see that. Like with mussels, where even though you can have a totally different size of meat or meat to shell ratio between, say, Pencetta River Island and Casco Bay, you're not analyzing it exactly for the same raw flavor. And so it's been really cool to see this kind of push in, like a boutique product or an effort to try as many different oysters from different regions as possible.

Corinne

One of your oysters compared to, let's say, an oyster grown up in the Damariscata River, is going to taste different because they're filtering 50 gallons of water a day or something like that. Right. So depending on the nutrient uptake and the type of algae that's in the water, yours is going to taste different from somewhere else in Maine.

Alicia

Definitely. They're probably in more brackish waters with fresh water flowing through that river system. Where I am technically, like, one of my sites is more of the mouth of a river, but it's past the point of where the brackish water, like the freshwater and the saltwater, are mixing. I'm truly more in the saltwater area of that. It's just going to have different flavor profiles based on that geography.

Corinne

Does the flavor change also throughout the year, like, if oyster harvested in the summer compared to a winter oyster?

Alicia

Yeah. The colder the water, the tastier the oyster. And that's what kind of the magic of a main oyster has, is that. Oysters begin soaring glucose for the winter because they are anticipating going into like a hibernation where they'll have less nutrients and things that they're feeding on. So they actually plump up a bit and have a higher sugar content. So they're sweeter and plumper and have a fuller body in the winter. So despite the extreme popularity in the summer, that's our big season. The flavors best in the winter.

Corinne

You're not harvesting them year round, right? You don't harvest in the winter at this time.

Alicia

I'm not harvesting year round, and I think that's a long term goal for me. There may be a time in the future where I make an effort to harvest a little bit more through the winter. But this year I harvested through Christmas, which was not the plan. And I think it was really good, though it was a challenge. It taught me I'm capable of doing that, that I felt much more confident on the water in the later months, particularly independently. Like I said, it's not the goal, but it does happen. And fortunately, there are other farmers around me who I try to communicate with, that I'm on the water, I'm nearby, that I'm alone, I have a life jacket on. But ultimately I'd like to be off the water between Christmas and April. And that's when I'll begin thinking about raising some of my oysters to the surface. And then probably this year, I'll try to just start harvesting product late April and then May and June will really be the sprint season of getting things on the surface, making sure equipment is ready to go and getting ready to take on new seed by July.

Corinne

So what does your farm look like right now? Do you still have bags out there or there's just nothing out there?

Alicia

Everything is on the bottom. So oyster cages are sunk to the bottom. There's surface oyster cages that you fill pontoons and you flip them and so those have bags of oysters inside of them. And then I have bottom cages, which will always remain on the bottom until I don't anticipate using them through the summer. But they have oysters and bottom culture and all of my floating bags are currently on land. A lot of bags are yet to be built and ready to go, so

Corinne

I'll help you build some bags.

Alicia

Yeah, there's no floating bags on the surface. The last of them were taken out of the water on, I think, December 21, the shortest day of the year and what happened to be the biggest tide. So we almost got stuck up during the one of the coldest days we were out there. Fortunately flat, calm, but yeah, I was like like a negative 1ft tide. We almost didn't make it in. So I'm happy everything's out of water.

Corinne

Yeah. Jeez. So even though you don't grow throughout the winter, we're in Maine. It's going to get pretty cold. Is the cold water an issue in the latter part of your season?

Alicia

I think it's a greater concern for me just being on the water and being cognizant of the risk factor, being out on the ocean and near cold water. But for the product, the biggest concern is just trying to make sure they don't get too exposed and too cold. Farms that grow throughout the year or harvest throughout the year, everybody's technically growing as long as the product is in the water. For those farmers. They have to have measures to actually protect the oysters from the cold. So in the summer we have all this ice out there to protect them from the sun and the warmth and ensure that there's strong biosecurity in preventing any.

Corinne

You mean like when you're harvesting?

Alicia

Yeah, when we're harvesting and then in the winter I know, like, Mirpoint was telling me that they have pretty much like a special blanket covering because they were having like their oysters like ice up. And so they've created a special method of protecting them and they try to have them out of the water for as little time as possible when they're on the boat and just get them back to shore and get them brought to appropriate temperature, but not too cold.

Corinne

I'm picturing oysters, like cuddled up in a cute little blanket on the boat ride back. So what other issues do you deal with in Maine? It can get pretty windy. Biofouling is a common issue that a lot of farmers seem to deal with.

Alicia

I think everybody in all aquaculture, these are the greatest challenges, is you're at the mercy of the waste, the wind, the weather, the water, and there's certainly similar issues when you have terrestrial land based farming. But when you're on the water, there's just risks that are different that you have to really be aware of. And that's been my greatest concern. Having people on my farm is trying to make sure everybody's safe and making sure we manage that appropriately. It can make working on the farm really difficult. Some days I've damaged more equipment as I was trying to fix something I broke and I just had to cut my losses and leave it be and hope that it would still be there the following day because it was so windy. And if for some reason there was equipment lost, then the next day when the weather is appropriate, you're going searching for it and trying to be a good steward of the water and ensure you don't have product or equipment floating around. Fortunately, I've not really lost much equipment in the few times that I have. I've generally been able to find it the following day, just beached on the neighboring island. But biovaling definitely can slow you down. That was a big issue. Once you get behind, it feels like you can't catch up. I was having issues where I had my stocking density of my bags too high so the equipment wouldn't stay flipped, which we do what's called flipping the equipment into the sun. And the oysters can actually be outside of the water for a day or two. And the sun is working as a natural kind of biofouling control system to kill the seaweed and sea squirts or tunicates that grow on the equipment that can be really heavy and be really frustrating. They can also kill the muscles that are a little more. Likely to grow on the equipment and die much more easily than oysters when exposed to heat. Biofouling is definitely a problem, but it's just learning to adapt and manage it appropriately. Being on top of it, I like to always have extra equipment that it's not in use so I can rotate equipment out to ensure that I can get whatever is really foul back to shore and have it dry in the sun and pressure wash it versus just having it continue to grow. But there's definitely some days I'm out there with pretty much like a floor metal scraper. I call it a knife on a stick and I'm ripping stuff off because I've run out of that extra gear. So that's the big goal this year, improving my biofouling management.

Corinne

That sounds hard because it's mostly out of your control, but sounds like there are some ways to somewhat manage that.

Alicia

Yeah, I think large scale farms have it down really well and that was the thing for me is improving schedule consistency and having additional people. On the days where I'm doing biofouling control, sometimes I flip the cages from the water and ensuring that there's someone else on the boat just to watch me for safety and things like that. There's a lot of stuff that I stop, I don't do because I think the risk isn't worth the reward and walking a fine line of that and comfort level. And so this coming year, I think it'll be a lot different culture and environment for me on my farm, but it's just learning through experience and how to manage my business, how to manage a farm and how to manage myself safely and appropriately.

Corinne

So I'm sure on the flip side, there's also a lot of things that are really great about growing your own oysters in Maine. Is there anything in particular that's your favorite about being out on the water or the main oyster brand in general?

Alicia

Basically what I do is one of the coolest jobs ever. I think it has so much more to do with being out on the water than anything else. I love growing a great oyster, but there's just something magical about being on the main waters and being in tune with nature in a totally unique way and doing something that I really believe is restorative, good for the environment and good for us to consume. Like at the end of the day, I'm producing food and I think that's what is really interesting and sometimes gets lost right now. And with your aquaculture and publicity, it's like we're growing food that speaks to the magic of what we're doing. My favorite thing about farming is, like I said, just being out there. And it's a challenge every day. And I feel like I've had such significant growth. It's like therapy and it's Illinois. It's, like, devastating and frustrating and exciting all at once. But also I get to have, like, a deep sense of pride. No one else knows what I'm doing out there some days, but I come home and I feel so accomplished and exhausted.

Corinne

I think it's super cool that you're doing all this at the age of 24 and being so raw and open and honest about all the ups and downs of oyster farming, owning your own business, being a young female entrepreneur. And I can imagine that there's a lot of people who are looking up to you, women and just other people in general. Do you have any role models that you look up to and things on the farm are challenging?

Alicia

Yeah, definitely. It's been interesting in my evolution of who I look up to and why, and I think that it goes beyond just, like, aquaculture mentors, but just strong women in general. But there are a few farmers really close to me that I think of and refer to often. One of the farmers was the one I mentioned before, thomas Henegar and his farm and your ben have been really helpful and insightful. And then I definitely look up to two women, amanda Moser and Emily Selinger, who are just like, strong women who really are out there to farm. In my perception, like, I've been fortunate that I've gotten a lot of publicity and social media following or whatever, but they just are out there doing the work, and I feel like they're just so invested in what they do, and they create this. It's a really awesome product, and they don't really care about the rest. I'm sure they do in their own ways, but I just have a lot of respect for that. I think there's a lot of up and downs in being an entrepreneur, but I totally encourage other people to do it. I think about life in a way that we only have one, and my risk tolerance now is just really high, and I encourage other people to take that on, too, because I think we're moving away from the culture of the nine to five and job security and ensuring we have retirement. All those things are important. And there's some level of things that I wish I could have more in my job in financial security, which I hope will come, I plan to have come, but ultimately it's like. It may just be this amazing phase of life. And I don't have any regrets about that. I just think about it. Even if the farm were to fail or something goes wrong and the investments I've made, it's like it's just money. And there's always going to be more of it if you work hard.

Corinne

Yeah, you're doing, what you're doing and you like doing it. Before we wrap up, I want to ask if there's anything that you wish that people knew about oyster farming or running a small scale farm in general.

Alicia

One of the things that's really important in oyster farming and aquaculture as a whole is that we use to the best of our ability, our reach, to explain why aquaculture is important, why seafood and food is important to our food systems feeding the world. And right now, oysters are a luxury product, it seems, but other products don't have to be. And that ultimately what our world needs is an expansion of aquaculture. That scaling is going to be required for just meeting demand, improving sustainable food production, but also for profitability. I think I get frustrated that people believe because for farmers, like, we're being greedy if we want to make money or grow. And I just want to have a business where I can employ other people for a reasonable rate of their labor, which is not insignificant, like the work that people put in on farms. They're breaking their backs to bring you your food. They're putting their lives at risk, being out on the water and weather days that are questionable. And I don't think it's wrong to want to have a strong, profitable business. And I think a lot of people find aquaculture and seaweed farming and oyster farming to be hot and sexy and cool. But there's a perception that the small scale farmer is like king and that's not the case. A lot of people are not making much money and they're losing money on their business and they're not in a position to grow. And so I think understanding that there's such significant value to scaling and importance to it is something we have to continue to share with the public and find better ways to share this messaging.

Corinne

So you go to your boat, there's like a little lamp and a little genie comes out of it and gives you one wish for your farm. What would you wish for?

Alicia

Oh, God, that's a great question. I wish there was just someone else to do all the work who knew how to tie knots and that there was no fouling. Ultimately. I wish they would just. Do all the lease work for me and give me a lease? The state a larger scale lease, that's the biggest concerning question for people. The process right now is prohibited to growth. Certainly I've been involved now in a separate business on more than 90 LPAs, which are small scale aquaculture licenses and leases across the state of Maine. And definitely this process has me reconsidering the scale and growth of my business because three to four years to know that I'm going to grow is kind of maxing out my personal risk tolerance and definitely having me question the scalability of my business and the goals that I have for it.

Corinne

Noted. Okay, you wish for my gene to come fix the leasing system,

Alicia

help us grow and be successful.

Corinne

I think that's actually a good wrap up point. You're going to Australia soon to learn more about oyster farming, right? So I will definitely have to have you back on again to hear about your trip and what you learned there. I just want to say thanks for being here today. I definitely learned a lot about oyster culture that I didn't know before. And it's also just fun to see a friend being the face of such a cool, great oyster brand. And you should for sure check out Naughty Sisters, which I will link to in the show notes.

Alicia

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.