What does our notions of right and wrong tell us about the existence of God?

In this episode Dr. Justin Gash of Franklin College joins us to tackle this fascinating question. We discuss the moral argument for God's existence, describe how it is usually countered, and then analyze those counter-arguments.

In the end we each give our take on how effective this argument is in achieving various goals.

Well, hello again, welcome back.

2

Dr.

3

Justin gash.

4

We are excited to have you back on,

we're going to explore a little bit

5

about the more argument, because you

mentioned in the last episode at the

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end of it, that that's, the argument

from William Lane, Craig, his book,

7

reasonable faith that has most.

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Resonated with you.

9

so I was wondering if you could.

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Walk us through what that is off the bat.

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We can kind of discuss it.

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And then maybe toward the end, we can,

we can hear kind of more your, your

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experience of how you're interacting

with that and why you find it helpful

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and compelling Sure absolutely.

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So the moral argument, consistent

to premises and in conclusion,

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the first premise is that.

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If there is no, God.

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Objective moral values and duties.

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Don't exist.

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Another way to phrase that, then

I think sometimes it's helpful.

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Is objective moral values and

duties exist only if God exists.

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the second premise is that objective

moral values and duties do exist.

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And Therefore God exists.

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All right.

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Nice cogent argument.

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A only at B.

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Exists, therefore B is B exists.

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That's exactly right.

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, wait.

30

The question there is.

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what if there are no objective

morals and duties, right.

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So that's what the second premise.

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As to address is that.

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Those objective moral values

and duties do in fact exist.

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Uh, premise one is looking more.

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at.

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Who or what could lay.

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Such obligations upon us.

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and What I find fascinating.

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About, both the, the.

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Philosophical naturalism, which

would be a prominent worldview.

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For atheists.

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and.

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Western theists is that.

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Everyone seems to be on board.

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With that premise, there are

exceptions, and I'm happy to

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discuss that if you would like.

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But the, so you're saying premise to.

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That objective moral standards

and obligations exist.

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You say most people would concede that?

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no.

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I'm referring to the first one.

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I see.

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Uh, that, um, the premise one

that objective moral values

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and duties exist only if.

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God exists.

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Okay.

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The primary critique, loving

by an atheist worldview.

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More philosophical mantra list worldview.

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Would be against the reality of there

being objective, moral values and duties.

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Most of the prominent.

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atheists would suggest that.

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the ones that I've ran,

what, what in fact say that?

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Yeah.

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If there are objective moral

values and duties that.

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Uh, who or what would lay in this upon us?

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it would be gone.

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Um, I see.

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So, sounds like the key

word there is objective.

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Objective is a key word.

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Can you help us describe the difference

between objectivity or objective

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morals and subjective morals?

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So subjective morals certainly exist.

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And subjective morals

are the set of morals.

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That are dependent upon the

subject doing the analysis.

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So for example, I have.

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Uh, moral code.

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That that would be my subjective morality.

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It's far from clear that

my subjective morality is.

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The objective morality I'm aiming for.

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But we all have a subjective morality.

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And some objective morality.

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Shift over time.

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For example, it would probably be,

A good assumption to make that we,

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the faculty of Franklin college.

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Hope.

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That the.

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Ethical understanding of our students.

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Improves after four years

of study as a pros to.

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degenerating.

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I need to be careful cause I just.

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The fact that you can even

improve, implies that there's

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a direction we're going right.

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Okay, but the point is is that we

each have our own subjective morality.

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and certainly it changes.

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So that's like I have a moral code.

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You have a moral code?

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Ours are different.

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Um, can we say that one is necessarily

better or worse than the other?

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Maybe that's same, same kind of

thing comparison here, but they

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just can be different and can.

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Yes.

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Objective would mean that

it, there is one code.

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It is.

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The code.

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Yeah, objective.

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Moral values and duties are

independent of the subject.

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That is assessing them.

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So.

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We might say.

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Historically speaking.

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That.

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There have been cultures in the world.

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That.

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Thought I'm thinking of something that

we would consider abominable today.

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Pillaging communities.

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To take the resources or how about

the Spartan two exposed babies?

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Yes.

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Sense of exposing them

to the elements to die.

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Yes, that's right up there for me.

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I can't imagine that.

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Yeah.

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And it's also right up there for me,

because for those of you who can't see me

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on the podcast, which would be all of you.

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I am an.

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I have a disability.

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And so I'm quite certain in Sparta and

they wouldn't just throw me in the pit.

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Uh, yea for 20th century America.

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I had thought of that, Dustin.

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but that's a great one, right?

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I mean, so their subjective view was that.

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then it was okay to do that.

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There was no ethical call.

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There was no ethical qualm about that.

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Our subjective view and modern day.

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America is that that there's

absolutely something wrong.

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The question is.

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Is there an objective?

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Reason.

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To think that that is actually wrong.

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That is.

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it's not just because we decide

that we don't like it anymore,

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but whether it is actually.

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Morally objectionable.

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To expose babies.

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So, is there a transcendent.

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Objective.

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Moral code.

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That's not just based on the

sociopolitical structures of a given.

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Community in time.

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Correct.

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And, or an individual or an

individual, an individual that's right.

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And.

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You've just hinted at.

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Y most philosophical naturalists,

again, I want to say most.

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And that's most that I'm familiar with.

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It's definitely not all.

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And I can provide examples.

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But many would subscribe to the, to

this point, to this claim, because if

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it's not a transcendent moral source,

that's laying these duties upon us.

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What would be the source and

really the only the most popular.

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Alternative would be a

version of Platonism, wench.

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I can not speak well enough about.

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Two.

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be speaking to it on this podcast,

but is not terribly popular.

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In terms of, moral and ethical.

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Uh, obligation.

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I don't think can I, Pass

this question, Daniel then?

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Yes.

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Okay.

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I don't know if that's okay.

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Perhaps pastor Dan has a better way of.

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Uh, I may not have been doing a very

good job of walking in the moral.

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I think he's been really good

and helpful so far and clear.

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I think, uh, so the question is.

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if objective morals aren't.

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transcendent by somebody or

some person, something that.

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Instills them.

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Is there another place?

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Where they could be found.

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What, what do you think Daniel?

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I think it's tricky.

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I think any answer that.

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Philosophers have given, have not proven.

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Satisfactory to.

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Uh, many other philosophers.

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So you get Plato as an example,

caught, also believed in.

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absolute moral duties in a

sense, but the ground that both

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of them gave were based upon.

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they're all speculative metaphysics.

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And unless you buy into that,

which most people don't.

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Then you have no ground for that.

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so there can't be

objections to premise one.

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Folks like Plato and cons have

given them, but they aren't really.

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Widely accepted maybe.

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I don't think for most people

they're viable options.

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Okay.

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Again, Do your mileage may vary, but.

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I don't know.

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Anybody who would subscribe to Plato's

theory of forms today as he put it forth.

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And then view that as a, as

a basis for ethical duties or

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an objective morality, Okay.

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Okay.

204

Thanks.

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So back to objective and subjective.

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other thoughts on those

to help us understand.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, one thing that might be

helpful for later and can also be an

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illustration now would be considering.

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scientific claims that we

would, we would view as.

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Objective.

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So consider the eclipse because we just.

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Had one.

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All right.

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It's absolutely true that some cultures.

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I have viewed The eclipse

as a harbinger of doom.

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or given it's.

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Special metaphysical, meaning.

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but.

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Objectively.

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We know that that is not the case,

From a scientific point of view.

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It's the moon.

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passing in front of us and the sun.

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That's that's what it is.

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So they may have had a subjective

view and you can still say our view

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is subjective, but I think most of us

would, say that that's an objective view.

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Let's put it this way.

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If that isn't sufficient to be objective.

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I don't know a context that exists.

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Where we could use the word.

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Objective in a meaningful way.

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at some point.

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We have sufficient evidence to

suggest that regardless of what

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your views are, this is reality.

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Um, and so in science, we wouldn't

say that it's an objectively true.

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At the moon passes in front of the sun.

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And even though historically different

cultures viewed them differently.

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Or may have anthropomorphized

the sun and the moon.

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It's still actually the case

that in their time, the moon was

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just passing in front of the sun.

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Yeah.

242

I want to clarify here.

243

So.

244

You're not saying the scientific

arguments and moral judgments are equal,

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but you're illustrating the difference

between objectivity and subjectivity.

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For both of these areas.

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That is correct.

248

That is correct.

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So the premise there is that moral

objective, morals and duties.

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Exists only if.

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God exists.

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So what's the connection between objective

morals and duties and God's existence.

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that's an interesting question.

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And I guess I would think about who

are, what the candidates would be.

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For us to have objective moral values.

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Meaning that there are things that are

objectively good and objectively evil.

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And objective moral duties, meaning

there's things that we ought to do

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and things that we ought not to do.

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There has to be something or some body.

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Laying those requirements on us.

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What candidates are there?

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naturalism.

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Offers.

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No.

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Sources for objective.

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Moral values and duties.

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It is amoral buy-ins finds very construct.

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Not immoral.

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Not immoral amoral.

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So you've never been in a science

class where they've talked

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about the, generosity molecule.

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And how it operates.

273

and we take in the generosity

molecule, and now we are obligated.

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To be generous, but I have heard of

the happiness hormone of dopamine.

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Indeed.

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Happiness.

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Isn't a moral.

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virtue though.

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So there can be physiological

effects that can help.

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Is it not.

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I don't think so, but anyway, I think.

282

The way I've heard this summarized

is that you cannot get is that

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you cannot get odd from is yes.

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That would be a fair summary.

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Yeah.

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From the bare fact.

287

That the universe exists.

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Doesn't give you.

289

Any basis for saying, what should

that happen within this universe?

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That's correct.

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so the naturalistic perspective says.

292

We're here this happened, but it

doesn't really provide a good argument

293

for the existence of objective morals.

294

So most naturalists.

295

There qualm wouldn't be with.

296

Premise one, it'd be a premise two.

297

They'd say, well, we don't believe that.

298

Objective morals and

duties actually exist.

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is that right?

300

for most, that would be my take.

301

Yes.

302

. Well, let's talk about premise to

then, because you said this is where

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most of the intellectual action is.

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So.

305

Why is that true?

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And what are the arguments against it?

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I think the best argument.

308

That it exists.

309

And certainly the argument

that William Lane Craig.

310

would put his weight behind

is that we have a rational.

311

Basis.

312

For experiencing the world around us and

trusting the experiences that we have.

313

And that.

314

Notions of.

315

Injustice and immorality.

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Or goodness.

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Our inherent that we can observe.

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What's right.

319

And good.

320

In the same way, we can observe that we

are speaking into microphones right now.

321

Objections that.

322

Might fall under the same,

same, uh, objections, emphasis.

323

If someone said, well, how

do we know we're speaking

324

into a microphone right now?

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Maybe it's an illusion.

326

Maybe everything is.

327

organizing itself in a way

around us to delude ourselves.

328

Uh, so I think.

329

Natural experience for most folks.

330

Is that they do see moral values and

moral duties in the world around them.

331

For example.

332

Uh, and I'm going to speak,

I'm going to give an example.

333

That's.

334

Ruff.

335

and not highly contextual.

336

Just to make the point.

337

We would say that.

338

Child abuse.

339

Is wrong.

340

Or I, at least I claim that I claimed

that child abuse is actually wrong.

341

I appreciate that other people.

342

And other cultures may

not have always agreed.

343

With that, and that sexual abuse

may have taken place or that

344

physical abuse may have taken place.

345

But they were wrong in

the exact same sense.

346

That they were wrong about the moon

chasing down the sun during the eclipse.

347

That actually child abuse.

348

Physical sexual emotional is wrong.

349

To negate the premise.

350

That objective moral

values and duties do exist.

351

To negate that you were

saying, there are no.

352

Objective moral values or duties.

353

So the counterclaim is that.

354

There are no objective moral

values and duties anywhere.

355

At all.

356

and so to me, that would

be my affirmative argument.

357

For the case that objective

moral values and duties do exist.

358

in our reality, we experienced

that they do in fact exist.

359

And that seems to be.

360

The universal reaction

that people have, right.

361

When I say child abuse is wrong.

362

I'm not just saying I don't like it.

363

I'm not just saying, well, it's, it's

wrong for us at the American culture, but

364

say in China or Nigeria, It'd be fine.

365

I making an objective statement

that this is fundamentally wrong.

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And we all do that.

367

We all criticize other people's

choices and decisions, and often

368

our own, hopefully on the basis

that some things are simply right.

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It's simply wrong.

370

Not that they're human preference.

371

So that speaks to the objectivity.

372

of these claims.

373

When you say that this is wrong

and it's always wrong, it doesn't

374

matter if it's been prosecuted.

375

And other times in cultures doesn't matter

because it's, it's objectively wrong.

376

Like it's not a product of us

being here in this time and place

377

Yeah, I think this is very important.

378

for us understanding.

379

Uh,

380

history.

381

And putting things where

they, Properly ought to go.

382

So.

383

In thinking about world war two.

384

And the Holocaust.

385

To say that it's something's

objectively wrong is to say that.

386

Even if if the Nazis had won.

387

And then taken over the world

and they had brainwashed everyone

388

through an education program.

389

That it was good and right to murder.

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Jewish people.

391

eradicate them.

392

It still wouldn't actually be right.

393

It's actually wrong.

394

this is important when we analyze

history, because I think about

395

American's own history with slavery.

396

if the argument is that there are no

objective moral values and duties.

397

Then when I say slavery is wrong.

398

I'm really just stating an opinion.

399

And I mean, how much more

important is my opinion in.

400

A slave owner's opinion, right?

401

And who is to adjudicate

between those two opinions.

402

And is it, majority rules?

403

That it was right when it was

happening because it was legal.

404

that seems like some dangerous thinking.

405

it seems like it's dangerous

thinking and whatever term,

406

how are we would define morals?

407

It doesn't seem like that's a

natural definition for what we mean

408

when we're talking about morality.

409

at all, because we can come up with

a Legion of counterexamples where.

410

people or cultures.

411

Including modern day American culture.

412

Are behaving in ways that upon review

probably aren't good, even though

413

they are popular or were popular.

414

the point being here that, when we have

these objective moral values and duties,

415

we are not, we're distinguishing them from

the subjective whims of the individual.

416

Or a society.

417

And we're, saying that they're set apart.

418

And I think that's important for

analyzing history appropriately.

419

So Daniel, can you help us understand

then, if we've got something

420

called objective morality, how

does the subjective morality.

421

I relate to that.

422

cause I think that there are

certain things like our moral

423

code here is different than

the moral code of Nazi Germany.

424

Are they both equally valid or what's

the interplay between the subjective.

425

And the objective.

426

Yeah, fair question.

427

Um, I'd love to get justice take on

this too, because he might have a.

428

More informed with awful take.

429

But for me, I would say.

430

We all have a subjective morality,

like Justin just mentioned.

431

we may not articulate it, but the

very fact that we make moral choices

432

and very often make consistent

types of moral choices indicates

433

that we have a subject to morality.

434

No.

435

That's not wrong.

436

we should have this objective morality.

437

But the question is not

whether that's right or wrong.

438

But whether there's some standard that

the should ultimately conform to or not.

439

If it's simply subjective in the sense

that no one is able to criticize it.

440

There is no one who could

adjudicate, whether mind.

441

Is better than someone else's,

even if they have opposite values.

442

that's the deeper question.

443

I'm not sure if that's

what you're asking in that.

444

Okay.

445

Justin, did you have a take on that?

446

I concur with your tank.

447

And I think.

448

Always a good idea.

449

Yeah.

450

That's why, that's why I do it.

451

And it's part of my moral,

subjective, moral code Daniel.

452

Uh, I agree.

453

And I think, the question

is Does our subjective.

454

Moral codes.

455

isn't working to approximate an

actual true objective morality.

456

You know, so when people say, Look

at all the progress we've made.

457

And they're talking about

ethics, What they're saying?

458

Isn't that more perfect.

459

Just saying that we are imperfect,

but we're aiming somewhere.

460

we have a target in mind?

461

If there's no target in mind, there's

no measurable way of discerning.

462

Right or wrong is just.

463

Different moral views in

a, space with no direction.

464

Yeah.

465

I'm also reminded of the fact that

in France, There is within a vault.

466

An iron rod.

467

That's exactly one meter long.

468

And they.

469

Taking the barrier's pains to

make sure that it is the standard.

470

So Justin and I say, we're both working on

a house or working on a building together.

471

And I have.

472

My idea of what a meter should be.

473

And we're making all these measurements

and buying all this material.

474

Putting the things together based on that.

475

And he has a different one.

476

Well, the question is, is there a standard

that we can both appeal to, to see.

477

Okay.

478

Which one of us has that to a right.

479

And let me pick up on that.

480

One question.

481

I think you could ask the one who

would label themselves or progressive

482

is, What are we to progress?

483

Towards.

484

What is the end goal?

485

Is there some final state of

what society should look like?

486

That is the standard.

487

For whether we're progressing

there or regressing.

488

There's a standard for motivating

our actions towards that.

489

And then related to that.

490

Okay.

491

Why that goal is to have another.

492

My point, being that when we had

this idea of progress, That implies

493

that there is this universal.

494

State that we should be working towards.

495

Which has universal object to

moral goodness towards it in it.

496

Uh, towards it or in it.

497

So anyway, that's my 2 cents.

498

And if you want that for other

cultures or communities as well.

499

that seems to hint at some sort of.

500

Objectivity.

501

Right.

502

So if, if we think that slavery is bad,

not just in this culture, but also.

503

In the Caribbean.

504

And in, Latin America, other places.

505

that seems to me that

it's pointing toward.

506

Okay.

507

It's not just because I was

born to this place in assumed

508

these cultural values it's that?

509

No, that actually transcends

the cultural values.

510

Right.

511

We want this, not just because

it's our personal opinion that.

512

And the desire for ourselves,

but because we view it.

513

As an object will be

better state of society.

514

So it seems to me that.

515

Well, I like what you said at the

beginning that subjective morals are true.

516

It's not that there are no subjective

morals that this argument argues about.

517

Objective morals.

518

Everybody has their own

thoughts on what's right.

519

And what's wrong in a given situation.

520

But to be moral subjectivists we

really can't have any grounds for.

521

Trying to impose that on somebody else.

522

Can we.

523

I mean, it's just, this is right for me.

524

that's moral relativism, which.

525

On a society level in a global

economy is going to just.

526

Be dangerous.

527

I would agree.

528

And to use your language from the podcast.

529

I think it's also just an unlivable.

530

I think that's an unlivable philosophy.

531

That folks who.

532

Purport to believe that don't

actually live out because there are.

533

Right and wrong things.

534

And we behave as Dan mentioned.

535

As if there are really wrong things

to do and really right things to do.

536

All the time.

537

it just seems to me that.

538

If I'm ever upset that you did

something wrong against me.

539

So you cut me off in traffic.

540

I mean, well, that's wrong for me?

541

But it might not be wrong for you.

542

Which really means that.

543

I have no valid reason to

even be upset with you.

544

Isn't that?

545

Well, there's no basis.

546

There's just no basis to

make a moral judgment.

547

Other than it's just, well,

this is what the law is.

548

So.

549

You can have descriptive statements.

550

Like I felt angry.

551

but, The point raised previously.

552

that doesn't take an is to an aunt, right.

553

And you are angry and does not mean that.

554

You ought to be angry.

555

Or that, they ought to have

done something differently.

556

It's just a statement of, emotion.

557

perhaps I might add What I think

is the biggest attack against

558

that premise because We are all.

559

Well, we all believe in God.

560

So we, we are.

561

We, we front load in the argument, uh,

in for, for us, there is absolutely

562

an objective moral standard in that.

563

That standard is gone, but let's

say that we were arguing from

564

an apologetic point of view.

565

And we want God to be on the backend of

the argument as a result of the syllogism.

566

Right.

567

So I would say the most

prominent rebuttal.

568

On grounds and philosophical

naturalism would be that.

569

There is.

570

And I'm paraphrasing.

571

Um,

572

Oh, excuse me.

573

I forgot his name.

574

Evolutionary biologists.

575

Okay, thank you.

576

Yeah.

577

to paraphrase Richard

Dawkins, that there is.

578

at base, no good, no evil, no, right.

579

No wrong.

580

Just cold pitiless, indifference.

581

We are machines for propagating DNA.

582

That is all.

583

we're all here through unguided.

584

natural selection and evolution.

585

There is no grand design.

586

Everything we perceive as moral

values and duties is really just.

587

Socio biological, perhaps

psychological evolution at play.

588

And so we can't trust.

589

That that any of our

perceptions have any real value.

590

They're just accidents.

591

I think that would be.

592

The most prominent counter-argument.

593

Th the moral argument.

594

As one might imagine I can

review the rebuttals to that.

595

attack.

596

Well,

597

I really like the way William Lane, Craig

outlines this because he makes, I'm going

598

to take a little bit of a diversion here,

but I want to make it clear when you say.

599

That somebody is wrong or that.

600

That you do not subscribe

to a particular belief.

601

There are two ways you can mean that

first is that you just outright.

602

Don't think the belief is correct.

603

So you can just say, no,

I think you're wrong.

604

But the second way you can deny belief

in something is to say I don't have

605

sufficient cause to believe in it.

606

You're not claiming it's wrong.

607

But I need reason.

608

To believe in this to be right.

609

I need one philosophers called warrant.

610

Uh, so the first one you can take that

critique that we are all products.

611

Socio biological evolution.

612

when being an, an attack on The truth.

613

Of the statement, objective,

moral values and duties do exist.

614

But.

615

That would be an example

of genetic fallacy, which

616

would be to blame the source.

617

to look at the source of

our understanding and then.

618

Declare the claim false.

619

Even if.

620

socio biological evolution is the

source of our moral understanding.

621

That doesn't actually demonstrate that.

622

Objective moral values and duties.

623

Don't exist.

624

That's just, a quibble with the source

from which we get that knowledge from.

625

What I think is more likely is the

second attack, which is to say.

626

Because of socio biological evolution.

627

All of our thoughts and our, brains.

628

Are.

629

The result of accidental

unguided processes.

630

And therefore we can't.

631

Trust.

632

Our moral understanding

because on what basis would we.

633

I think I've heard both of you

mentioned before Steven Pinker.

634

had a book that he

released in the nineties.

635

how the mind works, how the mind works.

636

Thank you.

637

And.

638

I think the quote is that our brains

aren't organs that have developed

639

through biological evolution.

640

They are not.

641

Tunnel's too.

642

truth.

643

We are organisms, not angels.

644

We have been shaped by

natural selection alone.

645

To solve life and death problems, not

to commune with correctness or answer

646

any question that can be answered.

647

That.

648

That's exactly what I was going to say.

649

If I was as informed and

well-versed as, as Daniel.

650

For some reason that's always stuck

with me because it seems to have

651

self-contradictory he's making the

whole point that our minds can't.

652

Make true statements about anything.

653

maybe a separate, immediate

sense of reception.

654

But that statement itself is the kind

of claim that he's just undermining.

655

So he's saying our minds

are made to work like that.

656

His own mind wasn't

made to work like that.

657

Is that correct?

658

That is correct.

659

And it's interesting.

660

And I think that is the,

the main rebuttal to that.

661

And then that what's good for

the goose is good for the Gander.

662

What you can't say.

663

It's not intellectually consistent.

664

To say.

665

Well, our minds have developed

through sociobiological

666

evolution, which is unguided.

667

Therefore we can't trust their perceptions

about objective morality on those grounds.

668

You can't trust the

perceptions on anything.

669

Uh, including the statement

that our minds are.

670

Developed by.

671

Yeah, that's right.

672

So it is, it is self-defeating.

673

but.

674

Can I tell I'm going to

tack on one more thing here.

675

And I apologize if

taking up too much time.

676

Okay.

677

This is a newer thought

that I've had recently.

678

And so I I'd like to hear your thoughts

on it, but I mentioned earlier about

679

how I don't think it's actually livable.

680

To believe that there are no

objective moral values or duties.

681

And I wanted to use, how the mind works.

682

Steven Pinker's taxed As an illustration.

683

We just covered how, the statement

that he makes then that Dan.

684

Quoted.

685

Is self-defeating.

686

But you also have to ask the question.

687

Why would someone who believes

that write a nonfiction book?

688

If there's.

689

You know, telling us the truth

about how our minds work.

690

Based upon.

691

faulty mine putting

that forth as Oak to me.

692

And then trusting that the

people who are reading the book

693

will gain something from it.

694

Presumably.

695

What they're gaining is truth.

696

I would think.

697

My point being is that.

698

The XPLAN the best explanation, I think.

699

And I'm not as bright as Steven

Pinker and I'm picking on him and

700

I, don't intend it in any kind of

mean-spirited way, but I think the

701

best explanation for that is to say,

702

That isn't actually what he

believes he can state it.

703

But his whole life is one giant

counterexample to the statement,

704

he actually is a professor.

705

And he does believe he can transmit truth.

706

He's been his entire vocation.

707

I spent transmitting truth.

708

The fact that it's in a book.

709

Means he thinks that he can transmit

truth to people and that they can read it.

710

And incorporate it.

711

And presumably then it

has some sort of impact.

712

I'm a little far afield here, but

I think that is a direct analogy to

713

what it means to not believe in any

objective moral values and duties.

714

I think people can state that.

715

But in the end, they're going to walk

away from the discussion table where

716

they just send that and they're going

to live their entire life as if.

717

There are moral values and duties that

they expect to be Upheld and that.

718

They will find it unreasonable

if people are not doing it.

719

If they're not doing what they say

and they're dishonest or they steal.

720

or if they hurt others

without proper cause.

721

does that make sense?

722

Yeah.

723

Very much so.

724

So we got to wrap up here pretty soon.

725

But at the beginning, you said this was

the argument that you found most helpful

726

or at least resonated with you the most.

727

Why.

728

I think it's the most personal

of the apologetics arguments and.

729

ultimately it's about connecting.

730

Connecting with God.

731

The other arguments are very good.

732

Certainly from the Calum

cosmological argument, you can infer.

733

Uh, creator.

734

And you can infer a personal choice.

735

Same with the tele illogical argument.

736

You say there's a designer

would be to say that there is a

737

personal agent making choices.

738

But moral argument.

739

is not only about God's objective

standards for ought to be done.

740

It's about my ability.

741

To meet those standards.

742

And in the case of Christianity, that

realization that I objectively failed

743

to meet those objective standards.

744

And am in desperate need of.

745

Salvation through Jesus

redeeming sacrifice.

746

And it's also a growth

mindset opportunity.

747

Like I have somewhere to go every day.

748

I can look at my life and I can say.

749

I can ask.

750

Did I meet the goal?

751

And again, it inevitably the question

is I didn't, but that's not really

752

the point asking the question.

753

The point question is where

didn't I meet the goal.

754

And how do I do it?

755

Better the next time.

756

And so.

757

There's this aspirational.

758

Component.

759

To it.

760

but I don't know What are your

thoughts about the moral argument?

761

, do you find a compelling.

762

I do.

763

I think anyone can choose

to deny the second premise,

764

especially if they want to.

765

But as you said, To do that.

766

With the consistency and livability.

767

I think most people when they

sit down and think about it,

768

like, yeah, I can't go there.

769

I can't.

770

Deny that some things are

objectively right and wrong.

771

And I think that's a good clue.

772

It's a good sign.

773

It's not approved like a.

774

Algebraic proof or something like that.

775

But it's a good sign.

776

So that's my take.

777

What?

778

Nathan.

779

I think it's good.

780

not only because it points to God's

existence, but it points to the

781

character of God and it points to how.

782

We see God as good.

783

Like, Freedom is good.

784

That's because that,

attribute actually originated.

785

In.

786

God.

787

Who says he created us in his image.

788

And so we, actually

inherit that attribute.

789

Same thing with generosity

or kindness or love or grace.

790

Or peace.

791

these are things that we look at

and we think, okay, those are good.

792

I want to.

793

experience those and to see

that those are grounded in.

794

God, it's really meaningful.

795

Because as you mentioned, kind

of waking up each day and looking

796

at, how you lived up to that.

797

Standard.

798

You know, some people can take that and.

799

And feel OCD about or something.

800

And I think that that's, not

the best response to that.

801

I think the response to what you said is.

802

Implicit there is, as I align my life

to that objective moral standard,

803

which is the character of God.

804

My life actually.

805

Takes on, uh, better quality

for me and the people around me.

806

And that's a good thing and that's,

that's the place I want to be.

807

And I don't think people

really argue with that.

808

You know, I want to be a good

person because I just feel

809

like that's the right way.

810

And that's better for

the people around me.

811

Does that point to the existence of God?

812

And I think the moral

argument shows that it does.

813

Thank you very much, Justin, did you have

anything else you want to talk about?

814

no, I just wanted thank you all

for the opportunity to be on the

815

podcast and, uh, you'll get our bill.

816

darn it.

817

I thought I was, I thought I was getting.

818

I thought I was getting paid.

819

We do things backward to.

820

Well, thanks so much for joining us.

821

Yeah.

822

Yeah.

823

It's been great.

824

You're welcome.