Sir Daniel: 00:00:16

Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast.

Sir Daniel: 00:00:19

I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: 00:00:20

And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments as Johnnie Ray

Jay Ray: 00:00:23

Kornegay III And we are going back in time to something I somehow avoided Sir

Sir Daniel: 00:00:29

Listen, I can't believe that you and I have been co-hosting

Sir Daniel: 00:00:32

Queue Points for, what, four years now?

Sir Daniel: 00:00:34

We've known each other for over a decade.

Sir Daniel: 00:00:37

We've been entangled musically for as long as we've known each other.

Sir Daniel: 00:00:41

The fact.

Sir Daniel: 00:00:43

That you have never, ever watched an episode or seen an episode of

Sir Daniel: 00:00:48

Being Bobby Brown is, I don't know.

Sir Daniel: 00:00:51

It feels irresponsible.

Sir Daniel: 00:00:54

And you know, you just knowing me, you know that I've seen

Sir Daniel: 00:00:58

it because I like foolishness.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:00

I like camp.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:01

And Being Bobby Brown, um, was all of those things encompassed

Sir Daniel: 00:01:06

in a, in like what an hour?

Sir Daniel: 00:01:09

Hours worth of reality TV show.

Jay Ray: 00:01:12

They were, uh, so I finally have

Sir Daniel: 00:01:13

Oh,

Jay Ray: 00:01:14

episodes, y'all, they were like 30

Sir Daniel: 00:01:15

thank God.

Jay Ray: 00:01:16

which was totally surprising.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:17

It was only 30 minutes.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:19

It felt like an hour.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:20

Okay.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:20

Okay.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:21

Yeah,

Jay Ray: 00:01:21

like baby though.

Jay Ray: 00:01:23

We talk about it.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:24

we'll talk about it.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:25

So.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:26

So we, when, um, Jay Ray and I were discussing, uh, us discussing Being

Sir Daniel: 00:01:31

Bobby Brown on the show, I said, you know what, we've got to pull in someone

Sir Daniel: 00:01:37

who was right there in the zeitgeist of reality, reality television, but

Sir Daniel: 00:01:44

not just as a viewer, but somebody who, um, built a career as a. A commentator

Sir Daniel: 00:01:50

of reality television shows, as well as other pop culture, um, phenomenon.

Sir Daniel: 00:01:55

I want us to go back to the early two thousands, j Ray.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:00

The early two, the mid two thousands I think

Jay Ray: 00:02:03

where we, where we having like

Sir Daniel: 00:02:04

Raised world.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:04

Yes.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:05

And there was a time when the blog Spot, blog Spot blogger, this and

Sir Daniel: 00:02:12

that, blogs were just on fire.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:15

Blogs were everywhere.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:16

It was before we, you know, we had the tiktoks and the

Sir Daniel: 00:02:19

Instagrams and the Twitters.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:21

So actual people who took the time to write pieces, um, would.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:28

Upload these nights, these diatribes on different, all kinds of topics.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:34

You had some people who, who talked about music, who were

Sir Daniel: 00:02:37

critics who would post Jay Ray.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:40

I got a lot of free music back then in the blog, back in the blogger era

Sir Daniel: 00:02:43

because people were uploading a whole bunch of, um, unreleased songs in

Sir Daniel: 00:02:47

anyway, so people were doing that.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:50

And then you had, of course people who were doing gossip and then you

Sir Daniel: 00:02:53

had the reality television writer

Jay Ray: 00:02:56

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:57

critique.

Sir Daniel: 00:02:58

And so one of my favorites, and I've said this time and time again, and I've said

Sir Daniel: 00:03:02

this, I've tweeted this to, to our guests.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:06

There was a time when I was working down at CBS radio and would hang

Sir Daniel: 00:03:11

out in Colony Square after, um, my job because I didn't, I was so

Sir Daniel: 00:03:14

broke, I didn't have wifi at home.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:17

So I would use the wifi in Colony Square to go and watch, look at

Sir Daniel: 00:03:21

my favorite blogs every day, and.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:26

There were two of them in particular that I could not go a day without looking at.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:30

The first one was crunk and Disorderly.

Jay Ray: 00:03:32

Yep.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:33

That was run by Fresh Lina, AKA Ika, and I see her every now and then

Sir Daniel: 00:03:37

on, on the socials, but I think she's, she's really fallen back from that.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:41

And the next blog, who's just written by our guest, our special guest

Sir Daniel: 00:03:46

today was a blog called Four four.

Jay Ray: 00:03:49

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:50

And sometimes on this blog, our guests would, um, had

Sir Daniel: 00:03:54

a cat at the time that would make appearances on his blog also, Jared?

Sir Daniel: 00:03:57

Yes.

Sir Daniel: 00:03:58

And that's how much I was into this.

Sir Daniel: 00:04:00

I mean, I was into it.

Sir Daniel: 00:04:02

I was into it heavy because our guest was so witty and had such a keen

Sir Daniel: 00:04:07

perspective on different reality shows, like especially America's Next Top

Sir Daniel: 00:04:12

Model, which always had me in stitches.

Sir Daniel: 00:04:15

But Jay Ray, I want us to welcome our guest.

Sir Daniel: 00:04:19

So ladies and gentlemen, before we introduce and show you our guest,

Sir Daniel: 00:04:23

Jay Ray, I want you to do the man justice and give him his propers.

Jay Ray: 00:04:27

Absolutely.

Jay Ray: 00:04:28

We absolutely have to do this, and this is exciting y'all.

Jay Ray: 00:04:31

Juzwiak is a writer and podcaster from Brooklyn.

Jay Ray: 00:04:34

He is the co-host of the Pot Psych podcast and the co-writer of

Jay Ray: 00:04:39

Slate's Love and Sex Advice column.

Jay Ray: 00:04:41

How do you, how to do it?

Jay Ray: 00:04:43

I love that title.

Jay Ray: 00:04:45

His work has appeared in the New York Times, Pitchfork Time, Esquire,

Jay Ray: 00:04:49

the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, and More Queue Points Family.

Jay Ray: 00:04:54

It is our absolute pleasure to welcome Rich Juzwiak to Queue Points Rich.

Jay Ray: 00:05:00

Hello?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:01

Hello.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:02

Thank you.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:02

Thanks.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:03

It was such a nice intro and such a nice walk down memory lane,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:06

especially Crunk and Disorderly.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:07

I read that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:08

Every day too.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:09

I

Sir Daniel: 00:05:10

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:10

and I talked all the time.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:12

She just felt like my people.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:14

So this is really nice.

Sir Daniel: 00:05:16

Absolutely.

Sir Daniel: 00:05:17

Thank you.

Sir Daniel: 00:05:17

Thank you for, for joining us and you know, as I, we set up in the beginning,

Sir Daniel: 00:05:22

um, the topic, the focus of this episode is going to be Being Bobby Brown.

Sir Daniel: 00:05:28

And.

Sir Daniel: 00:05:29

It, it dawned on us before we start hit record.

Sir Daniel: 00:05:32

It is like, there's probably a generation of people that have never even seen that

Sir Daniel: 00:05:37

show and don't even know that it exists.

Sir Daniel: 00:05:39

But as a writer, rich, like you've covered reality television,

Sir Daniel: 00:05:43

like I said, for many years.

Sir Daniel: 00:05:45

Um, how has reality television influenced you in your commentary as,

Sir Daniel: 00:05:52

um, as a writer and someone who puts a focus on the culture for people?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:05:58

Well, I think it's probably intensified my love of the

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:01

absurd, um, which I've, I've long loved.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:04

I mean, you mentioned camp.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:05

I always thought, especially in the early days, that reality TV was kind of like.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:11

Ground zero of camp, uh, in modern culture.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:14

You know, you just saw people acting out like extreme human behavior is

Sir Daniel: 00:06:19

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:19

I wanted out of reality tv, you know?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:22

So, uh, just the kind of.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:26

I don't know, watching humans be and endearingly.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:31

So I love that aspect of it, you know?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:35

Um, and I think also probably it's affected my suspicions because just,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:41

you know, not just watching the shows, but like hearing people talk about

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:45

them, understanding how they're made.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:48

We know how much is manipulated, so.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:52

I think in general it's made me a little bit more suspicious about

Rich Juzwiak: 00:06:55

kind of the messages that we receive and how doctor they can be.

Jay Ray: 00:07:00

Mm. So you actually, um.

Jay Ray: 00:07:05

Bring up something that I think is really important because I think my thought is

Jay Ray: 00:07:11

the early years, I'm thinking like real

Sir Daniel: 00:07:14

Real world.

Sir Daniel: 00:07:15

Yes.

Jay Ray: 00:07:16

It really did feel real like, well one, these were people

Jay Ray: 00:07:19

that we knew that the jobs that they were doing, we had seen, I had seen

Jay Ray: 00:07:23

Heather B in like BDP videos, so I

Sir Daniel: 00:07:25

Yes,

Jay Ray: 00:07:26

no, like she's just doing what she normally

Sir Daniel: 00:07:28

real.

Jay Ray: 00:07:29

this is what she do.

Jay Ray: 00:07:30

So it felt really real.

Jay Ray: 00:07:31

But we get to this point, and by the time, uh, the show we're about to talk

Jay Ray: 00:07:35

about comes out Being Bobby Brown.

Jay Ray: 00:07:37

We've already had the Osborne's, we've already had newlyweds.

Jay Ray: 00:07:41

And we've gotten, you know, many seasons of the real world by that point.

Jay Ray: 00:07:45

So that idea of by the early two thousands, we kind of have

Jay Ray: 00:07:50

a better, a more of a sense of the production of reality tv.

Jay Ray: 00:07:56

But do you think, when you think back to those early years and thinking

Jay Ray: 00:07:59

about the real world, do you see that as more real from your perspective?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:04

sure.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:04

Well, I mean, the first real world, nobody had any idea what that was gonna be.

Jay Ray: 00:08:08

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:09

understand what that would look like on tv.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:11

You know, they were just, they signed up for a documentary basically, and

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:15

they just kind of lived their lives.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:17

I mean, there was probably something of a Hawthorne effect, you know, um,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:21

that's a term about like, uh, uh, scientific studies, how the very act

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:26

of being studied can affect people.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:28

This is something that has been kind of, of observed and documented

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:31

for like a hundred years.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:33

So you turn a camera on somebody, are they their truest selves?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:38

Maybe not.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:39

But when you don't have an entire industry or, or like a career path, uh, in front

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:45

of you that you know about, I think you're gonna get a far different effect

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:48

than a few seasons in, uh, when people understand that they can, you know, uh, do

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:54

the lecture, college lecture circuit than came the challenge and all of this stuff

Rich Juzwiak: 00:08:58

where it behooves you to make TV so that they keep putting you on TV and

Rich Juzwiak: 00:09:03

then you can have a career from that.

Sir Daniel: 00:09:06

Hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:09:06

although I will, I do think that, uh, in terms of all of this,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:09:09

uh, Being Bobby Brown is an example of something that did feel really real to me.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:09:15

Um, in a lot of ways.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:09:16

I mean, the show is basically about nothing.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:09:18

It's about like sitting around the show's about like being in

Rich Juzwiak: 00:09:21

hotels and going out to dinner,

Jay Ray: 00:09:22

Right.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:09:23

two things that like I love, uh, you know,

Jay Ray: 00:09:27

So thank you so much, rich, for doing that, because when, so as,

Jay Ray: 00:09:31

as, as, as Sir Daniel mentioned, um, I had not seen Being Bobby Brown.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:09:36

Right.

Jay Ray: 00:09:38

The early two thousands.

Jay Ray: 00:09:39

So back in the day folks, cable had packages, right?

Jay Ray: 00:09:44

So you got to determine what you got based on what package you had.

Jay Ray: 00:09:48

And Bravo wasn't in the package that I had, and even as a music lover,

Jay Ray: 00:09:55

I was like, I am not getting Bravo just so I can watch Bobby Brown and

Jay Ray: 00:09:59

Whitney Houston in 2005 on reality tv.

Jay Ray: 00:10:01

That sounds.

Jay Ray: 00:10:03

Not like something I wanted to do, so I missed the whole thing.

Jay Ray: 00:10:06

So thank you for kind of setting up, setting up the show, because when I

Jay Ray: 00:10:11

went to watch it in preparation for this conversation, I was just sitting

Jay Ray: 00:10:15

there like, oh, oh, is this, what?

Jay Ray: 00:10:18

Is this what we're doing?

Jay Ray: 00:10:19

We're not doing much today.

Jay Ray: 00:10:20

This is like

Sir Daniel: 00:10:21

Yeah.

Jay Ray: 00:10:21

except Whitney, Bobby family, and a bunch of random other people in Atlanta.

Sir Daniel: 00:10:27

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:10:28

that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:10:29

That was enough

Jay Ray: 00:10:30

Right.

Sir Daniel: 00:10:31

Right.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:10:32

they

Sir Daniel: 00:10:32

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:10:32

more than that.

Sir Daniel: 00:10:34

I was completely sold from the beginning, but I will

Sir Daniel: 00:10:37

say this, J uh, rich, I really do believe that Kathy Griffin is

Sir Daniel: 00:10:45

really the one that set up and like.

Sir Daniel: 00:10:50

Lobb that ball o out the, um, the ballpark when it came to Being Bobby

Sir Daniel: 00:10:54

Brown, because she, I think was the, the, the, the starting point for us

Sir Daniel: 00:10:59

having this interest in who Whitney Houston was outside of what we saw on

Sir Daniel: 00:11:04

te on videos and, and, and performances.

Sir Daniel: 00:11:07

Because Kathy Griffith's, um, accounts of celebrity accounts of

Sir Daniel: 00:11:12

run run-ins with celebrities, but her Whitney Houston stories were always.

Sir Daniel: 00:11:17

Way over the top and hilarious.

Sir Daniel: 00:11:19

Like there was an instance where she said, I ran into Whitney Houston,

Sir Daniel: 00:11:23

and she just stopped and stared at me and said, you're funny.

Sir Daniel: 00:11:29

And the crowd erupted in laughter because we knew that meant like,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:11:34

Yeah,

Sir Daniel: 00:11:34

you might wanna run because Whitney Houston is probably about to,

Sir Daniel: 00:11:37

you know, about, to push you really quickly, but like, um, but as far as the

Sir Daniel: 00:11:42

show is concerned, like you set up the premise and Rich, you made, you made a

Sir Daniel: 00:11:47

great point about a lot of reality shows.

Sir Daniel: 00:11:50

Take people that don't necessarily have a, a career path.

Sir Daniel: 00:11:55

Put them and, and create personalities or, well, I should say assign them

Sir Daniel: 00:12:00

personalities and then give them a platform to become a star, quote

Sir Daniel: 00:12:05

unquote, without any actual talent.

Sir Daniel: 00:12:08

But the, with Being Bobby Brown, though Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown are.

Sir Daniel: 00:12:14

Tried and true celebrities, performers, all of that.

Sir Daniel: 00:12:19

Um, just looking back on being brown, why, why do you think it

Sir Daniel: 00:12:24

became such a cultural touchstone?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:28

Well, so, um, Whitney is the foremost reason I. Think, uh, you know,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:34

we look at the years leading up to it.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:36

Um, in 2001 there was the Michael Jackson tribute, which

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:40

Diane Sawyer referenced in her

Jay Ray: 00:12:42

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray: 00:12:43

Yep.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:44

which had people worried.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:45

And, you know, there were rumors around nine 11 that Whitney had.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:49

Died.

Jay Ray: 00:12:49

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:50

like issue a press release being like, we have a lot

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:53

more important things going on.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:55

I'm alive.

Jay Ray: 00:12:56

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:12:57

so there was the crack, his whack Diane Sawyer interview, which

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:00

like I thought was really overblown the way that people reacted to it.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:03

I thought Whitney made a lot of good

Jay Ray: 00:13:04

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:05

I want to see the receipts because like literally

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:07

how would somebody else know about her drug bill if they didn't

Jay Ray: 00:13:11

Yes, rich.

Sir Daniel: 00:13:12

Absolutely.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:13

of that, but she was right.

Sir Daniel: 00:13:15

Do you know Diane, do you,

Jay Ray: 00:13:20

Whitney, we love you so much.

Sir Daniel: 00:13:22

oh.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:22

Right.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:24

And then, and then there was, you know, the, the, the 2003 trip to

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:29

Israel with the black Hebrews,

Jay Ray: 00:13:30

Yep.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:31

now what are they doing?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:32

And, and also, you know, before that Whitney and Bobby were

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:36

always this kind of topic of.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:39

Conversation mystery, not just because of the, you know, then

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:44

lesbian rumors about Whitney,

Jay Ray: 00:13:46

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:46

that people said, oh, they're so mismatched.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:49

Why are, why are they together?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:50

That doesn't make sense.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:52

So this show offered a, a view, a bird's eye view, a a, a bug

Rich Juzwiak: 00:13:58

on the wall view of, of what?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:01

That would be like, and um, and also because it was so raw, you know, a lot of

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:07

the kind of things that we, people were picking up on were Bobby talking about.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:13

Digging stuff outta Whitney's butt and

Sir Daniel: 00:14:16

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:17

sexual kind

Jay Ray: 00:14:18

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:19

the, the way that they related to each other, um,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:21

in a very kind of sexual way.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:24

Um, like I, I, for the record, I don't think I, I've been rewatching actually

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:28

for my podcast for like a Patreon tear.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:30

Rewatching the osbournes who lived in filth, literal filth, I mean

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:35

like dog feces all over the place.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:38

And I don't remember people really getting on them the way that they got on

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:42

Bobby and Whitney who were just, I mean, don't think this show is that outrageous

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:48

in terms of what it's portraying.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:51

You know, they obviously were doing drugs and in

Jay Ray: 00:14:54

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray: 00:14:55

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:14:57

you know, they were smoking blunts and okay, maybe if

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:00

they had some Coke in the blunts, but it wasn't like, I don't know,

Sir Daniel: 00:15:04

Just a look.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:04

what we're seeing on that show is not

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:07

kind of the belly of the beast.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:09

These are two functioning people spending time with each

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:13

other, laughing so much with

Jay Ray: 00:15:15

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:16

for me at least, I, I never really doubted Bobby and

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:19

Whitney's love, but this show made me.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:21

Absolutely certain that they were completely in love with each other,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:25

uh, maybe codependent, but they, that love is so strong on that show.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:30

Um, you know, if you wanna talk about family values, there you go.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:15:33

Being Bobby Brown.

Jay Ray: 00:15:34

Mm. That's such an interesting thing.

Jay Ray: 00:15:38

So I, I, so one of the things I found myself having to do y'all

Jay Ray: 00:15:42

when I was going back and getting ready for this show is I had to.

Jay Ray: 00:15:46

Take off my 2025 Johnny hat and like, because at first when I

Jay Ray: 00:15:51

started watching it, Ooh, fun story.

Jay Ray: 00:15:53

So I wa watched the Christmas, there's like a Christmas special or whatever.

Jay Ray: 00:15:57

And I kind of remember pieces of this because I remember when the choir came

Jay Ray: 00:16:01

to the house and Whitney was, you know, like, and I'm like, Lord, this is a lot.

Jay Ray: 00:16:04

So I do remember seeing that at some point at the time.

Jay Ray: 00:16:07

But what struck me as an aside is.

Jay Ray: 00:16:13

and the fur.

Jay Ray: 00:16:13

I was like, Ooh, that's the fur that she was wearing when she went to

Jay Ray: 00:16:16

the gas station and her white Hummer that she was telling Whitney about.

Jay Ray: 00:16:20

That's the fur.

Jay Ray: 00:16:22

that struck me immediately.

Jay Ray: 00:16:23

Right now back to the show.

Jay Ray: 00:16:26

So think at first I was like.

Jay Ray: 00:16:31

God, I can't do, I can't do this.

Jay Ray: 00:16:33

Knowing all the stuff that came later, right?

Sir Daniel: 00:16:35

Right.

Sir Daniel: 00:16:36

Yeah.

Jay Ray: 00:16:36

know now about the totality of Whitney's life, her experience

Jay Ray: 00:16:41

and what she was going through.

Jay Ray: 00:16:42

I was kind of sitting with that as I was watching the show, but

Jay Ray: 00:16:45

at some point I was like, okay, Johnny, but take a second, right?

Jay Ray: 00:16:48

And then like take all of that off and just like watch this

Jay Ray: 00:16:51

from like a 2005 perspective.

Jay Ray: 00:16:54

then I'm like.

Jay Ray: 00:16:56

I can kind of see how this would be entertaining for people to see in 2005,

Jay Ray: 00:17:01

because we're getting to your point, a fly on the wall view of Whitney Houston

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:08

Yeah.

Jay Ray: 00:17:08

home.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:09

Right.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:10

Doesn't get bigger than that.

Jay Ray: 00:17:11

No.

Jay Ray: 00:17:12

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: 00:17:14

Yeah, I think,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:15

I, I'm sorry.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:15

Go ahead.

Sir Daniel: 00:17:16

no, no, no.

Sir Daniel: 00:17:17

You um, I was just gonna say, I think that was the draw.

Sir Daniel: 00:17:21

That was the.

Sir Daniel: 00:17:22

The, the, the, the hook, especially for the, for the channel was like,

Sir Daniel: 00:17:27

because there would be a lot of scenes where she wasn't there, she wasn't

Sir Daniel: 00:17:31

on camera, and then she would all of a sudden appear and it was like,

Sir Daniel: 00:17:35

oh, oh, it's about to be on now.

Sir Daniel: 00:17:37

Whatever's about to happen.

Sir Daniel: 00:17:39

All the cameras were focused on her.

Sir Daniel: 00:17:41

So, but yes, please go ahead, rich.

Sir Daniel: 00:17:43

I I didn't mean to cut you off.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:44

Oh, uh, no, not at all.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:46

Um, I, I don't think, I mean, like Nick and Jessica were kind

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:50

of coming up and Ozzy Osborne

Sir Daniel: 00:17:52

I forgot about

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:53

had, know, he had, he is a rock god, but I don't think

Rich Juzwiak: 00:17:58

that you could really argue outside of the eighties that he was a-list.

Jay Ray: 00:18:02

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:18:04

Whitney Houston was a-list.

Jay Ray: 00:18:06

list.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:18:06

was

Sir Daniel: 00:18:07

for sure.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:18:07

you know, the time that you give good love

Jay Ray: 00:18:10

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:18:10

through

Jay Ray: 00:18:11

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:18:12

her life.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:18:12

So it was a huge deal that somebody of that stature was

Rich Juzwiak: 00:18:16

doing a project like this,

Jay Ray: 00:18:18

Yeah, I'm, I'm wondering to that point then.

Jay Ray: 00:18:23

Um, 'cause one of the other things, like I said, I had to kind of suspend belief.

Jay Ray: 00:18:28

I'm, I'm thinking about two things.

Jay Ray: 00:18:30

Um, I'm thinking about the legacies.

Jay Ray: 00:18:35

Whitney's legacy specifically.

Jay Ray: 00:18:36

'cause it's very, I was talking to Sir Daniel before you hopped on Rich

Jay Ray: 00:18:40

about how different Bobby Brown is today and I can't imagine Bobby wanting

Jay Ray: 00:18:46

to even see Being Bobby Brown, just kind of like looking at him in 2005

Jay Ray: 00:18:52

and looking at where he is today.

Jay Ray: 00:18:54

I'm sure he would be like, nah son, I just, I live that.

Jay Ray: 00:18:57

I'm good.

Jay Ray: 00:18:58

Right.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:18:58

Yeah.

Jay Ray: 00:18:59

I'm, I've been thinking about their legacies and the other

Jay Ray: 00:19:01

thing I was thinking about is.

Jay Ray: 00:19:05

One was this exploitative, like, okay.

Jay Ray: 00:19:09

At the time, so Rich, how, how were you seeing this from, from your blog, right?

Jay Ray: 00:19:14

Where do you see this show falling?

Jay Ray: 00:19:16

Definitely entertaining.

Jay Ray: 00:19:17

Was it exploitative?

Jay Ray: 00:19:19

Do you feel differently today than you felt then?

Jay Ray: 00:19:21

Like what's kind of your thought process?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:23

well, it's, I mean, yeah, to, to your point, it's hard to watch

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:27

this show, uh, with like a. Light heart,

Jay Ray: 00:19:29

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:30

two thirds of the main family unit that we're

Jay Ray: 00:19:33

Yes,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:34

with

Jay Ray: 00:19:35

yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:36

you know, and, and I mean the, the, there's, there's

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:39

just tragedy upon tragedy there.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:41

Like the, the fact that Bobby Christina died is

Jay Ray: 00:19:44

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:45

Like, I can't, sometimes I forget, you know, like

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:49

think about Whitney's death like.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:50

Multiple times a week.

Jay Ray: 00:19:52

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:52

day for like the 10 years after basically.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:55

And it's still very frequently, but Bobby, Christina is almost like

Rich Juzwiak: 00:19:58

another level of just so tragic.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:02

So there is that aspect, you know?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:05

Um, I think, I think it's a really kind of complicated question.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:09

I think exploitation in general is a really complicated question because like.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:15

Entertainment and certainly like mass culture basically exists to exploit.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:20

Um, sometimes it's done more ethically than others, but there's general, uh,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:25

there's almost always a bunch of usually white, powerful people in control

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:31

of something and that are profiting.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:34

You know, more heartedly than the people ever actually involved.

Jay Ray: 00:20:37

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:38

this is just the music industry.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:39

Releasing a record is exploitation.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:42

Um,

Sir Daniel: 00:20:43

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:43

think that something that makes Being Bobby Brown a little

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:45

bit different is in my understanding, this show was filmed and wrapped

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:52

by the time they were selling it.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:54

I'm, I'm pretty sure I might be wrong about that, but I think

Rich Juzwiak: 00:20:57

that a lot of it was in the can when they were taking it to,

Jay Ray: 00:21:01

Wow.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:02

different.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:03

Outlets and it was Bobby Brown's production company.

Jay Ray: 00:21:06

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:06

if it's exploitation, then Bobby Brown is exploiting himself.

Jay Ray: 00:21:10

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:10

I'm pretty sure in the Oprah interview I meant to

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:12

go back and watch it 'cause I've watched that interview so many times.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:15

The uh, 2009 Oprah interview, I think it is 2009.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:18

I'm pretty sure that Whitney said that she did it for him.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:21

didn't want to do it and she did it for her husband who

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:23

really wanted to do this thing.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:25

So, I don't know.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:27

I mean, did he exploit her, uh, kind of Whitney also?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:31

I mean, you watch this show.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:33

Do you think Whitney was gonna do anything she didn't want to do

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:36

for like a long period of time?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:37

I

Jay Ray: 00:21:38

Absolutely no.

Sir Daniel: 00:21:38

Absolutely not.

Jay Ray: 00:21:39

she was very much in control of what Whitney Houston wanted to do.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:42

Exactly, exactly.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:44

She knew.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:45

I I, so it's hard, know, drugs are involved and

Jay Ray: 00:21:49

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:21:50

led to her downfall, but

Sir Daniel: 00:21:52

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: 00:22:20

Right.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:22:21

but I certainly would understand that argument given

Rich Juzwiak: 00:22:25

entire context of what was happening.

Jay Ray: 00:22:28

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: 00:22:29

You know, I think that's fair because if you fast forward to

Sir Daniel: 00:22:32

today, like there was supposed to be a DeBarge, um, reality show, and we,

Sir Daniel: 00:22:40

we were, we're well versed in the, the triumphant tragedy of the DeBarge family.

Sir Daniel: 00:22:45

And we saw the trailers and it was like, okay, that's, that's a bit much.

Sir Daniel: 00:22:50

And it leads me to think about where we are now as far as reality

Sir Daniel: 00:22:54

television is, is concerned.

Sir Daniel: 00:22:56

And to your point, rich earlier about it being like a, you know, a industry

Sir Daniel: 00:23:02

that calls for your pound of flesh, but the people, but the sheep per

Sir Daniel: 00:23:07

se, are kind of leading themselves in by the leash themselves now because

Sir Daniel: 00:23:12

reality television has become.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:15

This, this springboard for stardom, for fame, for wealth.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:21

And I think a lot more people are more intrigued by the fame part.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:24

Now, that's my opinion.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:26

Um, but as far as the quality of reality television today.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:32

Is, and you know, so Daniel will say that Being Bobby Brown was quality television.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:37

I'm sorry.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:37

It was, it was good

Rich Juzwiak: 00:23:38

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:23:39

Yeah,

Sir Daniel: 00:23:39

me.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:39

I had a good time.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:40

I had a good time watching it.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:42

But now there are things that I just have absolutely no interest

Sir Daniel: 00:23:47

in watching because it just feels, it just, everybody feels contrived.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:52

We know that there is a, a room, a control room full of people.

Sir Daniel: 00:23:57

Everybody has like workshopped their personality and their storyline

Sir Daniel: 00:24:02

before they even got on camera.

Sir Daniel: 00:24:04

So it just doesn't, it just, it's not satisfying to me anymore.

Sir Daniel: 00:24:07

So where are we now with reality television, rich.

Sir Daniel: 00:24:10

And what about the future of it?

Sir Daniel: 00:24:12

Is it, are we still gonna have reality television saying the next five years?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:17

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:18

Uh, well, I mean, I, I think that like this specific type of reality

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:22

TV of celebrities existing has kind of fallen off in a big way.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:27

I mean, there are still shows, there was the Baldwins, um,

Jay Ray: 00:24:31

Oh yeah,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:31

Sylvester Stallone is on a reality

Jay Ray: 00:24:34

Izzy.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:34

about

Jay Ray: 00:24:34

I didn't know that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:35

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:36

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:36

I didn't

Sir Daniel: 00:24:36

It doesn't sound.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:37

commercials for it and I was like, I'm gonna skip that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:39

I didn't

Sir Daniel: 00:24:40

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:40

that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:41

Um, so, but, but, but.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:45

As it kind of fell off, uh, social media and Instagram and, and ways of capturing

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:52

celebrities, ways of celebrities capturing themselves via video kind of took off.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:24:58

So there's less of a need for it.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:01

And here's where like the kind of exploiters like are useful because I think

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:06

that what you get a lot of the time is, you know, like anybody's social media

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:10

feed, very curated, very kind of like.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:14

Not the reality, but the reality that they want to show you.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:17

Whereas if you have people in control, like, uh, like, like on

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:21

Hey Paula, that's a crazy show.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:23

You could definitely argue that's exploitation, but that they can't

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:26

take your eyes away from it.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:28

But you would never get that side of Paula Abdul if she were left to her own devices,

Jay Ray: 00:25:32

Hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:34

Uh, you know, it, there is, there is something to be said for

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:37

having a kind of, uh, person in charge, you know, from a journalistic standpoint

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:42

that's actually going to help show the story as it will look to observers

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:48

as opposed to, oh, I'm having this.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:51

Subjective experience, and I'm gonna show you what it is.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:54

So for me, like what's come close to Being Bobby Brown is something like Justin

Rich Juzwiak: 00:25:58

Bieber crashing out on Instagram or,

Sir Daniel: 00:26:01

Hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:26:01

like Britney Spears' memoir.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:26:03

I thought that, like that in terms of like, oh, we're going

Rich Juzwiak: 00:26:06

to get something really good.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:26:08

The Britney Spears memoir came closest to feeling like Bobby Brown Being Bobby Brown

Rich Juzwiak: 00:26:13

since Being Bobby Brown to me, you know?

Sir Daniel: 00:26:15

Okay.

Sir Daniel: 00:26:16

Okay.

Jay Ray: 00:26:17

I absolutely thank you so much for giving us that perspective

Jay Ray: 00:26:21

and especially in the world that we live in now with social media.

Jay Ray: 00:26:23

I think that's a really important point.

Jay Ray: 00:26:25

I am curious before we transition out of, uh, Being Bobby Brown, we have a

Jay Ray: 00:26:29

couple more things we want to chat about.

Jay Ray: 00:26:31

Um, do you see.

Jay Ray: 00:26:35

In the reality TV space, and I mean, when we think about Bravo now, Bravo

Jay Ray: 00:26:39

is kind of synonymous with reality tv.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:26:41

Right.

Jay Ray: 00:26:41

we see Being Bobby Brown, like pieces of that and what

Jay Ray: 00:26:45

they were doing there kind of echoed, um, in shows, uh, today.

Jay Ray: 00:26:49

Are you seeing any of that?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:26:51

I don't, I don't know because it's so singular, you know?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:26:54

I mean, Whitney would show up on screen without makeup and kind of a wet look wig,

Jay Ray: 00:27:00

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:01

that was.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:02

That was impactful in a

Jay Ray: 00:27:04

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:05

that

Jay Ray: 00:27:05

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:06

doing that wouldn't be because the nobody

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:09

else is Whitney Houston.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:10

You know?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:12

So it, it, it's very, it's very hard to kind of say.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:16

And also keep in mind that like, people watch the show and people talk a lot

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:20

about Being Bobby Brown, but there was a lot of negativity about it.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:23

And I don't know, that people would like, basically at the time

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:28

would've had, would have admitted to being influenced by it, you know,

Jay Ray: 00:27:32

Mm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:32

and large.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:33

So, so it's hard to say.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:35

And then, and then of course, like, you know.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:38

2007, two years later is the Kardashians, which kind of changes everything.

Sir Daniel: 00:27:44

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:44

and so I guess, but that show was kind of boring too, right?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:47

So kind of like nothing happened in a

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:50

way, but although also that's really when you started seeing the contrivance too.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:55

So there's just something about the fact that, that you, you're, you

Rich Juzwiak: 00:27:59

took like this, this couple that was.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:01

So cared about by people who listen to pop music,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:05

especially black music,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:07

like just Whitney and Bobby are just a couple for the ages.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:10

You

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:10

know, you say those names.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:12

Everybody knows exactly what you're talking about, what

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:14

they were like, what that

Jay Ray: 00:28:16

Yep.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:17

you just, you, you don't really get that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:19

You're not gonna get real Housewives being like that because they're

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:23

not Whitney and Bobby, you know?

Sir Daniel: 00:28:25

Yeah.

Sir Daniel: 00:28:26

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:26

There is, there's actually a scene in being Bobby Brem, where,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:28

where they're being interviewed on a red carpet and they're talking about the show

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:31

that was coming up and someone said, oh, are you gonna be like Nick and Jessica?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:28:34

And she and Whitney says, they're cute, but we're Whitney and Bobby.

Sir Daniel: 00:28:38

Bobby.

Sir Daniel: 00:28:38

Yep, absolutely.

Sir Daniel: 00:28:41

And she was right.

Sir Daniel: 00:28:43

She was absolutely right.

Sir Daniel: 00:28:44

AB absolutely nobody else can compare to those two.

Sir Daniel: 00:28:49

Um, so quick transition, quick, you know, while we have you here because we

Sir Daniel: 00:28:55

know you've got your ear to the street.

Sir Daniel: 00:28:58

what, what is like really, what has really got you going these days, rich?

Sir Daniel: 00:29:02

What do you just like tap your veins and you want to inject it into daily?

Sir Daniel: 00:29:07

Uh, as far as pop culture is concerned.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:09

Well, uh, my favorite record of the year is the Twigs record.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:14

Speaking

Jay Ray: 00:29:14

I love that it's sexual.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:16

Usua.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:17

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:17

I, I, I, to me she's kind of like the platonic ideal of a pop star where

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:23

she does stuff that's so far out and yet is able to kind of keep things.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:29

Intelligible to, to a kind of Yiddish audience.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:33

You know, it's the thing that kind of like Bjork and Prince and Timbaland and Kate

Sir Daniel: 00:29:38

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:39

had where they are making pop music, but it just

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:42

does, it sounds like, of another world to me, like Twigs does that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:46

So I've been a little bit disappointed with her attitude sometimes this year.

Sir Daniel: 00:29:50

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:51

in general.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:52

Um, I, I, I really, really love that record and I want more stuff to be

Rich Juzwiak: 00:29:58

that good because like I, you know, I care about pop music, but a lot of

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:01

the kind of B tier working class pop girls that, you know, gay men love

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:08

so much, just don't do it for me.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:10

There's a lot of mediocrity

Jay Ray: 00:30:11

We talk about it all the time.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:13

I mean, there's, there's just stuff I, I just don't get it a lot

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:16

of the time and, know, unfortunately as I've gotten older, I have.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:21

Just found it harder to love stuff.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:23

There's stuff I like, but like,

Sir Daniel: 00:30:25

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:26

the way that, like, I would care about like a

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:28

Sierra album coming out, just it,

Sir Daniel: 00:30:30

Yeah.

Jay Ray: 00:30:30

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:31

that

Jay Ray: 00:30:32

not the same.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:30:32

me that much anymore.

Sir Daniel: 00:30:34

There aren't stars anymore.

Sir Daniel: 00:30:36

I, in my opinion, I don't, the rollouts aren't, there are no rollouts.

Sir Daniel: 00:30:41

It just doesn't feel like you said, it just doesn't feel like

Sir Daniel: 00:30:43

you we're not being edged enough.

Sir Daniel: 00:30:45

I'm, for, for lack of a better term, we're not, you know, we're

Sir Daniel: 00:30:49

not, there's no teasing, there's no titillating us anymore.

Jay Ray: 00:30:52

listen, rich, before we get out of here, the people

Jay Ray: 00:30:55

have to connect with you.

Jay Ray: 00:30:56

You have a podcast, you have all types of things going on.

Jay Ray: 00:30:58

So tell, how do you, how should people get into the Rich Juzwiak world?

Jay Ray: 00:31:04

Like where should they start?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:06

Okay, well, I mean, uh, my podcast is like where my

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:10

podcast is basically like my blog

Jay Ray: 00:31:12

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:12

days.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:13

It's like where I put stuff that I'm not writing about, that I just have

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:16

like a thing or two to say about, you know, that I'm not gonna write

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:19

a whole essay about or whatever.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:21

So that's pot psych, uh, that's, you know, anywhere.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:24

You listen to podcasts, Spotify, apple Podcasts, et cetera.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:28

You can listen to that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:29

I mean, it is a big bunch of nonsense, I have to say.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:31

But, um, I wouldn't have it any other way really.

Jay Ray: 00:31:35

Right.

Sir Daniel: 00:31:36

We love.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:37

know, the extreme human behavior, the absurdity I'm

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:40

trying to put back out into the world, what I love so much about it.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:43

Um, and then, and then I write this column for slate, you know.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:47

It's not pop culture, although I sometimes make a pop culture reference,

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:51

but it's called how to Do It, and we publish that like multiple times a week.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:54

So, you know, I'm a, I'm the co-writer.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:31:56

Uh, I write with Stoya, um, who's, you know, a former adult performer

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:01

and a thinker, and she's wonderful.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:02

So we have a lot of fun with that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:04

We've been doing that for like six years.

Jay Ray: 00:32:06

Awesome.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:08

uh, you know, my Instagram, rich Jz, R-I-C-H-J-U-Z.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:12

You know, I pub I put stuff up there from time to time, but I'm

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:15

not super, like I, I used to tweet all the time and now I don't.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:21

And then I stopped and now I don't even know where I would start.

Jay Ray: 00:32:24

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:25

don't have the capacity to just keep go like

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:28

I have other stuff to do,

Jay Ray: 00:32:30

Yes.

Jay Ray: 00:32:31

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:32

I can't, I just fell off with that.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:34

So I'm not like super, super active on social media,

Jay Ray: 00:32:36

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:37

see something that makes me chuckle, I'll throw

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:39

it on my Instagram stories.

Jay Ray: 00:32:41

beads.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:32:42

yeah,

Sir Daniel: 00:32:43

Awesome.

Sir Daniel: 00:32:43

Well, this has been a treat.

Sir Daniel: 00:32:45

I, you know, I'm super, super grateful to have had you on

Sir Daniel: 00:32:49

this episode of Queue Points.

Sir Daniel: 00:32:51

Um, Jay Ray, let the folks know what they need to know.

Jay Ray: 00:32:54

Well listen y'all, thank you so much.

Jay Ray: 00:32:56

If you can see our faces and hear our voices, make sure that you go

Jay Ray: 00:32:59

ahead and subscribe and make sure that you go on over and subscribe

Jay Ray: 00:33:02

to Pot Psych as well, um, because you wanna share this information.

Jay Ray: 00:33:07

So if you like it, maybe your friends, your colleagues, your

Jay Ray: 00:33:10

family, they might like it too.

Jay Ray: 00:33:11

So go ahead and share it.

Jay Ray: 00:33:12

That is.

Jay Ray: 00:33:12

Absolutely free.

Jay Ray: 00:33:13

You could visit, um, our website@qpoints.com.

Jay Ray: 00:33:16

There you can see our entire archive of episodes.

Jay Ray: 00:33:19

And baby, there are a lot of episodes to tune into.

Jay Ray: 00:33:22

Uh, so you should do that.

Jay Ray: 00:33:23

You can also check out our, uh, digital publication Queue Points mag, where you

Jay Ray: 00:33:27

get some additional stuff over there, um, at magazine dot Queue Points.com.

Jay Ray: 00:33:31

And if you wanna support the show, you can check out our store@store.qpoints.com.

Jay Ray: 00:33:35

We appreciate y'all, we love y'all.

Sir Daniel: 00:33:38

We absolutely do, and it's like I say in every episode

Sir Daniel: 00:33:41

in this life, you have a choice.

Sir Daniel: 00:33:43

You can either pick up the needle or you could let the record play.

Sir Daniel: 00:33:46

I'm being Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: 00:33:50

I am being Jay Ray, are you gonna be rich?

Rich Juzwiak: 00:33:55

being rich.

Rich Juzwiak: 00:33:55

Je

Sir Daniel: 00:33:58

And this has been podcast dropping the needle

Sir Daniel: 00:34:00

on black music history.

Sir Daniel: 00:34:02

We will see you on the next go round.

Sir Daniel: 00:34:04

Peace everybody.

Jay Ray: 00:34:05

Peace, y'all.