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Melodies of Life and Love: Insights from Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock
6th May 2024 • Seek Go Create - The Leadership Journey for Christian Entrepreneurs, Faith-Based Leaders, Spiritual Growth, Purpose-Driven Success, Innovative Leadership, Kingdom Business, Entrepreneurial Mindset, Christian Business Practices, Leadership Development, Impactful Living • Tim Winders - Coach for Leaders in Business & Ministry
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Have you ever considered the intricate dance between seeking wisdom and creating impact in a world that values tangible success? In this thought-provoking episode of "Seek Go Create," we sit down with veteran creative spirits Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock to unravel the threads of authenticity, regret, and the pursuit of meaningful connection. Together, we explore the depth of their near 50-year marriage, the transformative power of grace in personal growth, and the intersection of technology and artistry. From the heart of hospitality to the complexity of defining success, Andi and Charlie share insights from their book "Why Everything That Doesn't Matter Matters So Much," inviting us to reconsider our own measures of a life well-lived. Tune in for a conversation that challenges the conventional, urging us to seek first the intangible values that truly enrich our lives.

"Hospitality is about being a living invitation, offering a space where everyone has a seat at the table and a story worth hearing." - Andi Ashworth

Access all show and episode resources HERE

About Our Guest:

**Andi Ashworth:**

Andi Ashworth is a renowned author, speaker, and co-founder of Art House America, a collective dedicated to fostering creative communities for the common good. With a background deeply rooted in hospitality and relational theology, Andi has spent years cultivating environments where artists and creatives can thrive. She is recognized for her thoughtful insights into the integration of faith, art, and caregiving, as demonstrated in her compelling writing and speaking engagements.

**Charlie Peacock:**

Charlie Peacock is an esteemed musician, songwriter, and record producer whose career spans several decades. With a rich legacy in the music industry, his work has garnered critical acclaim and influenced countless artists. A co-founder of Art House America alongside his wife Andi, Charlie is also an author, known for his articulate exploration of the intersection between art, faith, and culture. His contributions to the arts have been celebrated for both their creativity and profound impact on the community.

Reasons to Listen:

1. Gain profound insights from Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock's nearly 50-year journey in marriage and the music industry, revealing the art of balancing relationships, success, and creativity in a rapidly changing world.

2. Explore the delicate interplay between advancing AI technology and the preservation of individual artistic expression with expert viewpoints on the future of music and writing in the digital age.

3. Delve into the transformative power of hospitality and community-building through the story of the Art House movement, and learn how creating intentional spaces can inspire collaboration and creativity for the common good.

Episode Resources & Action Steps:

### Resources Mentioned:

1. Book: "Why Everything That Doesn't Matter Matters So Much: The Way of Love in a World of Hurt" by Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock.

2. Art House website: Details about the Art House initiatives can be found on an official website or through the network connections in Nashville, Dallas, and Saint Paul.

3. Charlie Peacock’s Music: Listeners can explore Charlie Peacock’s music and productions to gain a deeper understanding of his journey and contributions to the music industry.

### Action Steps:

1. Practice Open-Palmed Approach: Integrate Andi Ashworth’s philosophy into your life by approaching difficult situations with open palms, asking for guidance, and embracing experiences as opportunities to grow closer to others.

2. Reflect on Personal Measures of Success: Inspired by the discussions from Tim Winders, Andi Ashworth, and Charlie Peacock, take time to define what success means to you at your current stage of life, looking beyond conventional metrics and considering intangible values.

3. Embrace Hospitality: Taking a cue from Andi Ashworth, create a welcoming environment in your own space, whether it's your home or workplace, to foster meaningful interactions and practice hospitality without discrimination.

Resources for Leaders from Tim Winders & SGC:

🔹 Unlock Your Potential Today!

  • 🎙 Coaching with Tim: Elevate your leadership and align your work with your faith. Learn More
  • 📚 "Coach: A Story of Success Redefined": A transformative read that will challenge your views on success. Grab Your Copy
  • 📝 Faith Driven Leader Quiz: Discover how well you're aligning faith and work with our quick quiz. Take the Quiz

Key Lessons:

1. Embrace Vulnerability for Growth: Andi Ashworth's advice on facing difficult times with open palms invites listeners to approach life's challenges with a willingness to seek guidance and leverage hardships as opportunities to grow closer and develop deeper bonds.

2. The Importance of Self-Reflection and Confession: Charlie Peacock's discussion on regrets and the necessity of self-examination showcases the power of acknowledging past mistakes. It stresses the need for confession as a step towards maturing and growing in grace.

3. Intangible Measures of Success: The episode highlights the complexities of defining success beyond quantifiable metrics. Both Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock prioritize the love and respect of family and the impact they leave on others as indicators of a successful life.

4. Integrating Life and Relationships: The conversation with the guests illuminates the concept of leading an integrated life, which emphasizes the complementary nature of personalities and roles within a relationship or family, offering a holistic approach to living as opposed to striving for balance.

5. The Role of Hospitality and Community: Andi Ashworth illuminates the essence of hospitality as a way of being, characterized by a welcoming and non-discriminatory presence. Tim Winders draws parallels between the communal aspect of early church settings and modern coffee shop/startup culture as spaces of fellowship and shared humanity.

Episode Highlights:

00:00 Getting to know each other before interview.

10:20 Acknowledging flaws and striving for change.

13:21 Balancing work and rest for a fulfilled life.

17:58 Navigating life's different stages while seeking support.

24:27 Struggle to convey importance of Christian work.

28:28 Focus on audience, tribal culture, business success.

36:30 Authentic hospitality is about genuine connection.

42:57 Young family moved to Nashville, bought old church.

48:09 Fascination with modern workspaces compared to churches.

53:29 Industry's transactional tone contrasts with communal values.

59:12 AI replacing low-value music production for TV.

01:00:26 Frequent use of writing assistant and pondering audience.

01:07:56 Success is feeling grateful, loved, and caring.

01:11:45 Embracing the non-quantifiable and gratitude for obstacles.

Thank you for listening to Seek Go Create!

Our podcast is dedicated to empowering Christian leaders, entrepreneurs, and individuals looking to redefine success in their personal and professional lives. Through in-depth interviews, personal anecdotes, and expert advice, we offer valuable insights and actionable strategies for achieving your goals and living a life of purpose and fulfillment.

If you enjoyed this episode and found it helpful, we encourage you to subscribe to or follow Seek Go Create on your favorite podcast platform, including Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode and can stay up-to-date on the latest insights and strategies for success.

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Mentioned in this episode:

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Transcripts

Speaker:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I'm going to, make these

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relationships whatnot.

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They might be in mainstream pop music.

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They might be in Christian music, but who it ultimately

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goes to is I give that to God.

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I give that the destiny of that to God and I'm not going to necessarily

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try to get all that figured out.

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And that has been that's just been swimming against a 60

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foot wave my entire life.

Speaker:

You

Tim Winders:

How can the seemingly insignificant details of life

Tim Winders:

unveil profound insights on love, creativity, and faith?

Tim Winders:

Today on Seek Go Create, we're honored to host Charlie Peacock, a multi Grammy

Tim Winders:

winner, and author Andy Ashworth, as they share the wisdom gleaned

Tim Winders:

from nearly 50 years of marriage in their latest book, Why Everything

Tim Winders:

That Doesn't Matter, matter so much.

Tim Winders:

This couple brings to life the notion that every aspect of our existence, no

Tim Winders:

matter how small, has the potential to impact people, the planet, and culture.

Tim Winders:

Through a collection of letters, they offer hope and practical advice to

Tim Winders:

Christians seeking to navigate the complexities of the modern world with

Tim Winders:

kindness, forgiveness, and compassion.

Tim Winders:

Welcome to Seek Go Create.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: for that wonderful introduction.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

am, I I want to say right out,

Tim Winders:

I usually start off with this odd question about what people do, but I have

Tim Winders:

thoroughly enjoyed over the last few days.

Tim Winders:

I feel as if I've gotten to know you through your book.

Tim Winders:

And, and I think, and I want to say this, this might be a good thing, might not.

Tim Winders:

I didn't know much about you before that.

Tim Winders:

It's really been quite intriguing for me that this is kind of my

Tim Winders:

introduction, which is really cool.

Tim Winders:

But, I, I think what I'd love to do, I usually kind of get people to talk

Tim Winders:

about what they do or things like that, but it's rare that I have couples.

Tim Winders:

So what I'd love to do and maybe, start with you, Andy, I'd love for maybe you

Tim Winders:

to intro or say something about Charlie.

Tim Winders:

And then Charlie, if you could say something or intro Andy, and

Tim Winders:

then we'll kind of get rolling and see where things take us.

Tim Winders:

So

Tim Winders:

Andy, introduce Charlie to me.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Okay, I will I will start with Charlie

Tim Winders:

has been my boyfriend since I was 6 15 15 years old and The first thing he

Tim Winders:

ever did was sit me down in his room and have me listen to Miles Davis,

Tim Winders:

an important Miles Davis record.

Tim Winders:

And to, to, tell me that this was really important to him.

Tim Winders:

Music was really important to him.

Tim Winders:

And he's an extraordinary musician and songwriter and record producer

Tim Winders:

that he's in a really, beautiful, beautiful, encouraging husband.

Tim Winders:

And a really fun grandfather, and a very fun dad, and, in the world of things

Tim Winders:

that he makes, he makes a lot of fun, memorable things happen in our family.

Tim Winders:

So I would, I would start with that.

Tim Winders:

Oh,

Tim Winders:

That,

Tim Winders:

that is an excellent introduction.

Tim Winders:

Charlie, can you.

Tim Winders:

uh, how about that?

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: don't know if I can match that.

Tim Winders:

Yes, this is Andy and as she said, my sweetheart since I was a teenager

Tim Winders:

and, we have created a life together that is completely unexpected, not

Tim Winders:

planned for and yet in many ways planned for, since we were kids.

Tim Winders:

I mean, we can go back and look at things that we journaled or something that we may

Tim Winders:

have, may have made it a sort of, vision board or something in high school and,

Tim Winders:

and see so many things that came to pass.

Tim Winders:

And, a big part of that is that Andy is the glue in our

Tim Winders:

relationship and in our family.

Tim Winders:

because.

Tim Winders:

She puts relationships first.

Tim Winders:

And, in my work, I've had this weird mix of relational and transactional.

Tim Winders:

And there's just not a transactional bone in Andy's body.

Tim Winders:

It's, it's like all love, all people all the time, and always concerned about what

Tim Winders:

someone is thinking or feeling and how she can serve them and, bring them in closer.

Tim Winders:

So she does that with me and she does that with our kids and her grandkids.

Tim Winders:

And, and it really is that we really are first on her mind.

Tim Winders:

And then out from there, she has extraordinary friendships.

Tim Winders:

I mean, she has friendships with, with girlfriends from

Tim Winders:

when, before we were together.

Tim Winders:

So that's, that's how much she is this kind of sticky, sticky.

Tim Winders:

glue centered relational person, that she makes a friend and she keeps a friend.

Tim Winders:

And that's a really beautiful thing.

Tim Winders:

And then, then she just has a huge hospitable heart that is a welcoming heart

Tim Winders:

and create spaces for people that, are deeply meaningful for them, for strangers

Tim Winders:

and for people that she's known for ever.

Tim Winders:

I mean, that's just the tip of, tip of it, but that's a good introduction.

Tim Winders:

uh, I, I appreciate those words.

Tim Winders:

And like, I, I think we're in a society and culture where number one

Tim Winders:

longevity, almost 50 years of marriage, my wife and I just celebrated 35.

Tim Winders:

So we're a number of years behind, but, but heading in that direction.

Tim Winders:

And.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Doing well.

Tim Winders:

Yeah, thank you.

Tim Winders:

And we, I think very similar to the two of you are still still in learning mode.

Tim Winders:

I mean, do y'all feel

Tim Winders:

like, I don't want to say you're just getting started, but, but

Tim Winders:

I mean, is it, is it, I mean, where are you at in the spectrum?

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah, we're just getting

Tim Winders:

started on our fifth marriage.

Tim Winders:

To each other.

Tim Winders:

Yeah, to each other.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

I mean, Andy said it well at different times that, that we are, they're just

Tim Winders:

these big phases, and we are very grateful to be in a really good one right now,

Tim Winders:

where we have gone through a valley where we had to learn a lot again.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

And come, come out of it.

Tim Winders:

And yeah, we, we know that now.

Tim Winders:

I think, I think that the certainty of our love and our marriage has,

Tim Winders:

has never been greater because of the many valleys and mountaintops

Tim Winders:

that we've traversed together.

Tim Winders:

One thing that's interesting to me, I had a conversation

Tim Winders:

recently with, with a guest and.

Tim Winders:

He was talking about that the goal isn't really balanced.

Tim Winders:

He was talking about being a business leader and he says,

Tim Winders:

we're not to lead a balanced life.

Tim Winders:

We're really called to lead an integrated life where we integrate our faith.

Tim Winders:

And, and, and, we, we hear this, we hear things thrown around in our culture,

Tim Winders:

society, things like opposites attract.

Tim Winders:

And I don't know that I agree with that.

Tim Winders:

I, I believe that with my wife and I, and kind of what I'm hearing

Tim Winders:

with you two and reading is I think that compliments attract.

Tim Winders:

It's like people that are complimentary that can integrate.

Tim Winders:

And to me, it seems as if one of our journeys in this married life

Tim Winders:

is learning how to, integrate and, and, and we're still learning.

Tim Winders:

It sounds like, y'all are, y'all are still learning.

Tim Winders:

Now, the thing that.

Tim Winders:

Let me go ahead and dive right into the book because I think it's going to lead

Tim Winders:

us in a lot of different directions.

Tim Winders:

The book, Why Everything That Doesn't Matter Matters So Much.

Tim Winders:

And the thing that I kept, that I kept getting from it

Tim Winders:

was how well y'all integrated.

Tim Winders:

I think I saw plenty of places that there could be conflict because when

Tim Winders:

you have a certain personality and a certain personality, but I, I kept seeing

Tim Winders:

integration and I was wondering if that was one of the intentions of the book,

Tim Winders:

or is it a by product or have y'all even thought about it that, that Andy, what

Tim Winders:

are, what are your thoughts on that?

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I think it's both.

Tim Winders:

I think it's maybe something we don't even realize all the time, but.

Tim Winders:

We do tend to be of one mind about a lot of things and then we also definitely have

Tim Winders:

our own personalities and I, I agree with the person you, you were referring to.

Tim Winders:

I don't think the balance is a possible thing.

Tim Winders:

I think there is grace and there's tension along the way of our life.

Tim Winders:

I just think that's the real thing.

Tim Winders:

I think there's you know, lots of tension for lots of reasons, whether

Tim Winders:

age or stage or personalities or, but then there's grace inside of that.

Tim Winders:

And that is, I think the journey, the pilgrim journey is to, to, I don't know.

Tim Winders:

I always see it as putting your, your palms open at really difficult

Tim Winders:

passages and saying, I don't, I don't know how to move forward.

Tim Winders:

help us, guide us, we're really needy, and then we'll integrate

Tim Winders:

again, even if we've been far apart.

Tim Winders:

I think we get closer and closer and closer together.

Tim Winders:

The more we age, the more we experience.

Tim Winders:

And yeah, so it's been, it's been all of that.

Tim Winders:

Yeah, one,

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: And the book, yeah,

Tim Winders:

well, I was going to say, Charlie, one of the

Tim Winders:

things that was intriguing to me, it actually wasn't intriguing.

Tim Winders:

It was more affirming.

Tim Winders:

This may be the better word, was one of the last chapters that you wrote.

Tim Winders:

And I don't want to say it was almost like an apology.

Tim Winders:

I think you even worded it more of a confession.

Tim Winders:

Of these are some things that I've done that, as a, a multitasker, you use the

Tim Winders:

word multitasking and, as someone who is more transactional and someone who

Tim Winders:

is more maybe in the business space, you, I, I don't think I'm putting words

Tim Winders:

in my, it was almost like you were sort of as a, as a husband, father

Tim Winders:

saying, I'm sorry that I was this way.

Tim Winders:

I wish I could change it a little bit.

Tim Winders:

And, and I think that relates to the, the tension or the integration, whatever

Tim Winders:

that we feel as people that are leaders.

Tim Winders:

You want to, what can you say to that?

Tim Winders:

Did I, did I read it right?

Tim Winders:

Or was I just, was I projecting

Tim Winders:

my issues onto what you were writing?

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: it right.

Tim Winders:

No, I think you did read it right.

Tim Winders:

I think there's a I'm not one of these people who who thinks that you should

Tim Winders:

go through life without regrets.

Tim Winders:

I actually think that if you don't have regrets, then you've got

Tim Winders:

probably a serious ego problem or a problem with the self analysis.

Tim Winders:

So I'm okay with having regrets, but I put them, I put them in my whole

Tim Winders:

perspective and knowing that all my efforts, all my best efforts, approximate

Tim Winders:

efforts, I haven't done anything with perfection, that the reason for

Tim Winders:

the analysis or the reason for the confession is, is simply to grow in

Tim Winders:

grace and to receive grace for that.

Tim Winders:

continue to mature and not look at just my age number and say, Oh,

Tim Winders:

well, yeah, I'm pretty much done now.

Tim Winders:

Now I, it's, it's more like as, as I feel that God reveals things to me

Tim Winders:

that I do want to mature and, and grow.

Tim Winders:

and so a lot of the things that worked for me in business, It's kind of like

Tim Winders:

they had a, two sides of the coin, there's a positive side and a negative side.

Tim Winders:

And so you could so easily tip over, just flip the coin and

Tim Winders:

then it's all negative, right?

Tim Winders:

So you take things like, a really, unusual, resilience perhaps, right?

Tim Winders:

or the ability to work long hours or any of those kinds of things, right?

Tim Winders:

then you use, you think, well, look, I don't an eight hour day.

Tim Winders:

I mean, shoot, let's do a 16 hour day.

Tim Winders:

I mean, look how much more we can get done.

Tim Winders:

Right.

Tim Winders:

but that's based on the object of just getting things done.

Tim Winders:

Right.

Tim Winders:

And there are many things in life, for entrepreneurial people where,

Tim Winders:

yeah, that, that is job one.

Tim Winders:

getting it done and getting it done well and getting it done for the

Tim Winders:

least amount of expense and the quickest amount of time, right?

Tim Winders:

So you can become so oriented by that way of thinking that you'll,

Tim Winders:

you'll miss the people that you love the most and missed moments in

Tim Winders:

life that, that you'll later regret.

Tim Winders:

You'll think like, well, did I really have to do that?

Tim Winders:

I mean, and this is where Andy has been such a good voice through our

Tim Winders:

entire marriage, to just, insert the, Sabbath theology, of dependence and

Tim Winders:

rest into day to day living where, where we can hold to this idea that we're,

Tim Winders:

we're just small little people, right?

Tim Winders:

We, we do get these extraordinary opportunities to do really big things.

Tim Winders:

And some of us are super excited about that.

Tim Winders:

And we enter into it and we execute it and do that.

Tim Winders:

But at the end of the day, what I learned was that I did a lot of that

Tim Winders:

stuff based on the wrong motivations.

Tim Winders:

And so most of my maturity and healing has come through

Tim Winders:

discovering why I was so motivated.

Tim Winders:

Certainly a part of it is taking care of a family, building

Tim Winders:

businesses and all of that.

Tim Winders:

I get that.

Tim Winders:

But there's also a part where it becomes your meaning.

Tim Winders:

And for me, I mean, I, I was in a sense addicted to imagining

Tim Winders:

and addicted to creating because that's where I felt the safest.

Tim Winders:

The ability to just immerse myself in my imagination and draw out of that things

Tim Winders:

that I wanted to bring into the world.

Tim Winders:

And that just made me feel safe.

Tim Winders:

And when, when it came time for the world to decide whether it was going to

Tim Winders:

applaud me and pay me for it, they made the decision to applaud me and pay me.

Tim Winders:

Right?

Tim Winders:

Which of course, what did that do?

Tim Winders:

That just reinforced it.

Tim Winders:

And so I lived on that for a long, long time while trying to be.

Tim Winders:

a good husband, good father, good grandfather, all of that.

Tim Winders:

But I did have to finally come to terms with the fact that this was that two

Tim Winders:

sided coin and that there was a super positive contribution to culture, to

Tim Winders:

family, to all of that, but that all it took was just a little flip and it

Tim Winders:

could go to, the negative side of it.

Tim Winders:

The interesting thing about

Tim Winders:

that is that I recognized I I've always business has always been

Tim Winders:

my quote unquote, I guess, arena.

Tim Winders:

Maybe my art.

Tim Winders:

I don't, I don't, I don't know if that I've what's, what's cool about

Tim Winders:

this conversation is I've never considered myself someone who is an

Tim Winders:

artist, even though in the last few years I've written a novel, which was

Tim Winders:

quite an interesting stretch for me.

Tim Winders:

It's very fascinating.

Tim Winders:

We can kind of sidebar that, but

Tim Winders:

related to what you were saying there, Charlie, what I recognize with me.

Tim Winders:

A while back, and I'm still working through this, is that

Tim Winders:

I had an addiction to more.

Tim Winders:

And I spoke to someone recently that said they, it was a related addiction,

Tim Winders:

but they were addicted to tomorrow.

Tim Winders:

And I've never heard someone say they're addicted to imagination.

Tim Winders:

And I don't think that those are the same, but I think they're related.

Tim Winders:

And, and I think they could spin off in different directions.

Tim Winders:

I think the challenge with our culture and our world, and I might even let Andy

Tim Winders:

address this and speak to this is that often that is rewarded and applauded

Tim Winders:

and celebrated as opposed to if.

Tim Winders:

you and I had been addicted to, I don't know, alcohol or,

Tim Winders:

meth or something like that.

Tim Winders:

We would, we would obviously have issues there, but we're applauded

Tim Winders:

because it looks as if we're succeeding, but I'm not sure

Tim Winders:

that we are in the eternal, I think we are,

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah.

Tim Winders:

we're not.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: You're succeeding by a standard.

Tim Winders:

It's just not an eternal standard.

Tim Winders:

Well,

Tim Winders:

and so what does that do for someone in your role, Andy, when you're, uh,

Tim Winders:

attached or integrated or married to, or cleaning up the messes or whatever you

Tim Winders:

want to say about someone who is that way.

Tim Winders:

Cause my wife, we could probably get y'all here and y'all

Tim Winders:

could have this conversation,

Tim Winders:

but, uh, but, that

Tim Winders:

like?

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: well, it's different at

Tim Winders:

different stages of life.

Tim Winders:

I'm thinking of when we were young, younger parents.

Tim Winders:

And we had just moved to Nashville.

Tim Winders:

And the music business, the music making, recording, touring, record

Tim Winders:

companies, began to have a more and more say in how our life was lived.

Tim Winders:

But I didn't really get any say.

Tim Winders:

But it was all coming from, it was coming from outside of us.

Tim Winders:

And, I, I didn't.

Tim Winders:

have a chance to respond much.

Tim Winders:

So the way I was responding is that I'm trying to hold up a flag for somebody to

Tim Winders:

see, to say, I'm starting to drown here.

Tim Winders:

I need, I need, and then it, it moved into the realm of the hospitality

Tim Winders:

thing where we had, a very, very open home for, more than two decades.

Tim Winders:

And so everything was happening inside of the home.

Tim Winders:

in that regard where I was, whether it was taking care of children,

Tim Winders:

oftentimes on my own for that.

Tim Winders:

Or whether it was later in life, taking care of guests and houseguests and,

Tim Winders:

the people who were coming through, which was all something that I really

Tim Winders:

I felt very called to and loved.

Tim Winders:

But then there was a place where I also wanted to say, but I don't

Tim Winders:

want to be alone in these things.

Tim Winders:

I want a partner.

Tim Winders:

I want, and I don't think that biblically it's meant to be that way either.

Tim Winders:

so that was, that was often a big struggle for me.

Tim Winders:

And, now we're at a different stage of life.

Tim Winders:

So we don't have, guests in our house all the time, as we used

Tim Winders:

to, our children are grown.

Tim Winders:

We have, we have a lot more choice and we have come to a much better understanding

Tim Winders:

of each other and, what's good for each other and how we want to live.

Tim Winders:

it's so much better in that regard where both of our voices are heard.

Tim Winders:

But I will say that, in those other things that I just talked

Tim Winders:

about that, that made them.

Tim Winders:

It had the joyful part and the called part.

Tim Winders:

And then the part that I thought, I don't want to be alone in

Tim Winders:

these things all the time.

Tim Winders:

And I want to have choice and I want to have a say, but as Chuck already said,

Tim Winders:

especially with the music business, it's, or, with record companies, there's,

Tim Winders:

it's always like every opportunity is the, is the right opportunity.

Tim Winders:

Right.

Tim Winders:

But that might not always be the case.

Tim Winders:

For a marriage or a family or,

Tim Winders:

Charlie, one of the

Tim Winders:

things, and

Tim Winders:

I know, and I love in the book, and I was afraid I would call him Chuck because

Tim Winders:

you call him Chuck throughout the book.

Tim Winders:

And

Tim Winders:

so, Charlie or Chuck or whoever will, we'll just, he'll answer.

Tim Winders:

I'll answer to

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Well, I'll tell you how it breaks down is

Tim Winders:

like if my, if my parents, let's see.

Tim Winders:

No, I think when my last days, my dad would call me

Tim Winders:

Charlie, just for fun, I think.

Tim Winders:

but my mom still always called me Chuck, and then Andy called me, Chuck.

Tim Winders:

Yeah, because I, I didn't start being Charlie till I

Tim Winders:

was about 21 or so, I guess.

Tim Winders:

so I have like people that, in fact, I just got an email

Tim Winders:

from someone yesterday, right?

Tim Winders:

And so they said, Dear Chuck, right?

Tim Winders:

Because they qualified like they've been around so long.

Tim Winders:

They qualify to be in the Chuck years, right?

Tim Winders:

But you do whatever you want.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

Well, good.

Tim Winders:

Well, That's something that I enjoyed.

Tim Winders:

so here's a, another bit of confession for me.

Tim Winders:

My personality would be one where I would really enjoy the content of.

Tim Winders:

Charlie's letters that he wrote in the book, because generally they had a, had a

Tim Winders:

flavor of some business and, some things that were going on and all of that.

Tim Winders:

And I'm, I'm hopeful that, that Charlie, this is when you might say, I want you to

Tim Winders:

call me Charlie, not Chuck, that Charlie's okay with this, but I found myself.

Tim Winders:

Truly enjoying Andy's letters.

Tim Winders:

I, I felt as if I was, if this, as if I was sitting with her and

Tim Winders:

talking with her, where with Charlie,

Tim Winders:

I was gathering information that I loved.

Tim Winders:

I also want to say this about the book, and this is, I think, Probably

Tim Winders:

one of the best endorsements that I could give my wife and our readers.

Tim Winders:

I read a lot, obviously, to consume content, to do research for the podcast.

Tim Winders:

And my wife, almost every book she reads, she tells me, you need to read this book.

Tim Winders:

You need to read this book.

Tim Winders:

You need to read this book.

Tim Winders:

I rarely will read a book and say to her, my wife's glory.

Tim Winders:

Oh, you need to read this book.

Tim Winders:

I was about halfway through over the weekend.

Tim Winders:

And I said, this is a book you need to read.

Tim Winders:

There's a lot of things that can touch you.

Tim Winders:

There's a lot of things to pull from things like that.

Tim Winders:

So having said all that.

Tim Winders:

Charlie, I'm about to ask you about one of the letters that you wrote that

Tim Winders:

really pulled at me as far as the topic.

Tim Winders:

And that is this whole aspect of putting the label Christian in front of Whatever.

Tim Winders:

I, I deal with it

Tim Winders:

because I'm a businessman and I always, oh, you're a Christian businessman.

Tim Winders:

I said, well, I don't even like the word Christian much anymore.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I noticed y'all use this term follower of Jesus or follower of Christ.

Tim Winders:

I try to use that too.

Tim Winders:

And I'm almost,

Tim Winders:

I don't think I'm trying to distance myself from people.

Tim Winders:

Maybe I am.

Tim Winders:

We don't have to get into that, but

Tim Winders:

talk a little bit about the industry you've been in that.

Tim Winders:

label that you really in that early on letter in the book you, you, I, I

Tim Winders:

won't say you were ranting, but I said, he's trying to get a point across here.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: very much.

Tim Winders:

So I mean, and it's I will say that as much as I don't want it to be.

Tim Winders:

I mean, it's been one of the kind of Keystone work works of my lifetime,

Tim Winders:

since I've been a young Christian.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I have been in this conversation.

Tim Winders:

writing about it, speaking about it, and I can't tell you how difficult it is to

Tim Winders:

get this point across or to get anyone to, to understand it or receive it.

Tim Winders:

That and, and my retort to that is that that reveals just how much the

Tim Winders:

church is indoctrinated to branding as a way of being and a way of life.

Tim Winders:

And, what I've tried to say is that no, you're free from

Tim Winders:

that and you can distinguish.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I honestly, I saw this with the Gospel Music Association

Tim Winders:

back when I was involved with with Christian music quite a bit.

Tim Winders:

They really jumped on the branding bandwagon, 25 plus years ago when,

Tim Winders:

when people were really, people were hiring consultants right and left about

Tim Winders:

everything had to be branded, right?

Tim Winders:

Everything had to have elevator pitch, mission statement, I

Tim Winders:

mean, everybody was in it.

Tim Winders:

I don't care.

Tim Winders:

You're going to start a business, tomorrow, that was going to be

Tim Winders:

the first thing you did, right?

Tim Winders:

It wasn't about big ideas anymore.

Tim Winders:

It wasn't about passion.

Tim Winders:

It wasn't about instinct, intuition.

Tim Winders:

It wasn't about risk anymore.

Tim Winders:

All, All of those things followed after you got your branding together.

Tim Winders:

And I saw that infiltrate the church in every aspect of it.

Tim Winders:

Pastors became branded, I mean everything.

Tim Winders:

And then all the products that were associated with it.

Tim Winders:

And I just was like, man, you guys, you just don't know where this leads.

Tim Winders:

It leads to narrowing.

Tim Winders:

are concepts of what it means to be a Christian.

Tim Winders:

It doesn't widen them like that.

Tim Winders:

The whole purpose, the whole economic purpose of branding is to have the

Tim Winders:

least amount of conversation to produce the highest effect, right?

Tim Winders:

If I say water, your, your mind can immediately go to the options.

Tim Winders:

It is the simplest conversation.

Tim Winders:

That's why water was chosen as something that was so simple to

Tim Winders:

sell and so simple to brand, right?

Tim Winders:

And something that you can make an extraordinary amount of money on.

Tim Winders:

I mean any of us who have been entrepreneurs, we would have been lucky

Tim Winders:

to just be water salespeople, right?

Tim Winders:

I mean, it's so simple and that's exactly what branding seeks to do.

Tim Winders:

It seeks to simplify everything.

Tim Winders:

And the point about being a Jesus follower is that it is not simple.

Tim Winders:

It is not simple.

Tim Winders:

It is so complex and it's so individual and it has so many different missions so

Tim Winders:

many different looks not only that it's generational and it's international.

Tim Winders:

And I mean, it's so so the ability the idea that we would

Tim Winders:

brand something as Christian.

Tim Winders:

It's like What Christian?

Tim Winders:

Who's Christian?

Tim Winders:

I'm going to need more information than that.

Tim Winders:

And it's so especially now, that's why I would take that positions because

Tim Winders:

look, if you call me a Christian, I want to know what you mean by that.

Tim Winders:

If I call something a Christian, you should want to know what I mean by that.

Tim Winders:

Because if anyone who studies it for even five minutes is going to find out that.

Tim Winders:

There are so many ideas about what constitutes a Christian today that we

Tim Winders:

are not speaking the same language.

Tim Winders:

We are just absolutely not speaking the

Tim Winders:

I, I think what

Tim Winders:

bothers me, I mean, again, I'm, I'm a business guy is kind of

Tim Winders:

all, most of what I've done.

Tim Winders:

That's where All my successes and addictions and challenges

Tim Winders:

have been related to,

Tim Winders:

and you know, the mantra there, like you said, with branding, I'll say

Tim Winders:

it maybe a slightly different way is you have to know your audience.

Tim Winders:

You have to choose your audience.

Tim Winders:

You have to focus on your audience, isolate your audience, and

Tim Winders:

speak directly to your audience.

Tim Winders:

And what that gets us Is I, I think what it gets us is the culture we have

Tim Winders:

today where we have an extreme tribal.

Tim Winders:

And again, we, we, I don't want us to go down this path, but

Tim Winders:

we're extremely tribal, confusing.

Tim Winders:

I, isolated group of people at a time where we should be more connected

Tim Winders:

than ever, because we could do things like we're doing right here.

Tim Winders:

three people meet, get on a, a, a techno, not a Technology platform

Tim Winders:

and have a one hour conversation and share it with the world.

Tim Winders:

How cool is that?

Tim Winders:

And, and so I, I think back to when I was reading through that chapter, it,

Tim Winders:

it reminded me of years ago, I started following Tim Tebow on On Instagram and I

Tim Winders:

was following him because I was attempting to identify kind of how to call myself.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I'm a, I'm a coach at heart, but I love doing this and I love doing a

Tim Winders:

lot of things and I've written a novel.

Tim Winders:

How interesting is that?

Tim Winders:

And I, and I wanted to say, do I need to put Christian

Tim Winders:

businessman, Christian coach?

Tim Winders:

Cause I see that.

Tim Winders:

And I went to Tim Tebow's who we all know Tim's, background and stuff like that.

Tim Winders:

And at that time he had athlete that was, that was his

Tim Winders:

description.

Tim Winders:

So it is more of that, what one, one, what one does or their gift.

Tim Winders:

And, and I, and I think it's pretty, Part of what's causing our issues today

Tim Winders:

is that we're attempting to, I, I'll say it this way and then I'll be quiet.

Tim Winders:

Maybe I'll let Andy respond to this.

Tim Winders:

I really believe we're attempting to use Babylonian principles to

Tim Winders:

describe kingdom of God, people, and what we're trying to do.

Tim Winders:

I mean, we're just trying to do all the stuff that the world system says

Tim Winders:

when we really should be Operating out of what y'all's book says, the

Tim Winders:

way of love in a world of, so anyway, there wasn't a question there.

Tim Winders:

Anything you want to say to it?

Tim Winders:

Either one of you.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: no, but you, I mean, you nailed it.

Tim Winders:

You nailed it.

Tim Winders:

Exactly.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I wish more people understood, would understand what it was that

Tim Winders:

you were saying, but you did nail it.

Tim Winders:

I mean, that's exactly what it is.

Tim Winders:

It's Babylonian principles,

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: in sort of inserting kingdom language.

Tim Winders:

so you're devaluing the language because it's actually the.

Tim Winders:

The kingdom language is inflated or informed by all

Tim Winders:

this Babylonian, impulse, right?

Tim Winders:

And so it's really not the words don't mean what we

Tim Winders:

Right.

Tim Winders:

Right.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: they're just they're placeholders

Tim Winders:

for a different kind of affection.

Tim Winders:

And I think that's, that's the, that's the reason why we are, we try to be

Tim Winders:

as careful as we can, to, to find what we're talking about and try to write

Tim Winders:

in such a way and speak in public in such a way that, that people can look

Tim Winders:

over our shoulder or anyone can be in the room, I will say this and then I'll

Tim Winders:

pass off to Andy is that I do think that there can be a place for someone

Tim Winders:

to say, I'm a Christian life coach.

Tim Winders:

Okay, if you want to, if you want your audience to only be Christians.

Tim Winders:

And, and that's it.

Tim Winders:

So like when my, really, really close friends that I worked with for

Tim Winders:

years at EMI Christian music group.

Tim Winders:

or Sparrow Records or any of those folks, when they self identify as, as

Tim Winders:

a Christian business person or self identify as a Christian record company,

Tim Winders:

they want to do that because they do want to sell things to Christians.

Tim Winders:

The difference between them and I is that I was never, I was never driven to

Tim Winders:

sell things to Christians exclusively.

Tim Winders:

And I've never been driven that way.

Tim Winders:

I'm so much more on the making side, my driven.

Tim Winders:

This is on the making and then I sort of draw a line in the dirt

Tim Winders:

and say and now who it goes to.

Tim Winders:

Of course, I'm going to, make these relationships whatnot.

Tim Winders:

They might be in mainstream pop music.

Tim Winders:

They might be in Christian music, but who it ultimately

Tim Winders:

goes to is I give that to God.

Tim Winders:

I give that the destiny of that to God and I'm not going to necessarily

Tim Winders:

try to get all that figured out.

Tim Winders:

And that has been that's just been swimming against a 60

Tim Winders:

foot wave my entire life.

Tim Winders:

But I do believe for me, that's my calling and so I have to stick with it.

Tim Winders:

And that's, that's what faithfulness looks like for me.

Tim Winders:

I'm not saying it has to be that way for you, but I'm, I'm saying

Tim Winders:

that's what it looks like for me.

Tim Winders:

So I do want to be understood.

Tim Winders:

Maybe that's why I keep writing about it.

Tim Winders:

I want, please, someone understand this.

Tim Winders:

Or, or you want to convince someone, I think that's sometimes what

Tim Winders:

I'm trying to do is people to be more.

Tim Winders:

I don't know if it's more open.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I'm sure you have seen these situations if you've been

Tim Winders:

around the industry, there are times that I would much rather hang out,

Tim Winders:

I hate to say it this way, with heathens than with, than with people

Tim Winders:

that call themselves Christians.

Tim Winders:

And, And, I, I think this is, I'm going to lob it over to Andy here.

Tim Winders:

I think that that is kind of the root of this hospitality gift that people have.

Tim Winders:

I don't think that one can be hospitable and be discriminatory.

Tim Winders:

To me, it doesn't

Tim Winders:

seem that way.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I guess we could be maybe choosy, but, and, and it seems as

Tim Winders:

if, and, and my wife has that gift too, that this hospitality has been

Tim Winders:

a gift that you've had, you even talk about food in the book in a way I'm

Tim Winders:

going, this is one of the things I'm saying, my wife's going to love this.

Tim Winders:

I'm going, she just talked about soup in a most beautiful.

Tim Winders:

Descriptive way that I've never heard anyone talk about soup.

Tim Winders:

So anyway, talk about

Tim Winders:

hospitality, Andy, and why it's important and why it fits into this conversation.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Okay.

Tim Winders:

Well, I love what you said.

Tim Winders:

about it because I, I think you really hit the nail on the head.

Tim Winders:

Hospitality is a way of being.

Tim Winders:

So that's, that's where it starts.

Tim Winders:

It's not, I mean, it is a practice and the, and the practice can have so many

Tim Winders:

different kinds of looks depending on who you are and what your situation is and.

Tim Winders:

what your, the fullness of your gifts are, all of that.

Tim Winders:

So no cookie cutter stuff here.

Tim Winders:

And no, I mean, it is a way of being that is throughout the scriptures as a way

Tim Winders:

of life to be hospitable to strangers and to just to all kinds of people.

Tim Winders:

So it's, it starts as.

Tim Winders:

a welcoming presence, I guess.

Tim Winders:

And so that is not discriminatory.

Tim Winders:

That is not narrow.

Tim Winders:

It's not, I have to know who you are and the fullness of your story before I can

Tim Winders:

sit and have a meal with you or a cup of coffee or take a walk or, it's more

Tim Winders:

of, I actually want to know who you are.

Tim Winders:

And I'd like to share myself with you.

Tim Winders:

And I think that is.

Tim Winders:

And then there are obviously the, the feeding and the sheltering parts

Tim Winders:

of hospitality that are, really important, central to who we are, any

Tim Winders:

of us, in some way, So there is that.

Tim Winders:

That part that there is something real and, in the moment and in,

Tim Winders:

on the earth and meeting needs of people in these different ways.

Tim Winders:

But I think that the very beginning is that place of where we start and

Tim Winders:

that is like, I want to know you or I want to be open to knowing you.

Tim Winders:

I want to look at you and I want to see another human being and I want to see

Tim Winders:

all these things that we have in common.

Tim Winders:

and which is our humanity and our needs and our vulnerabilities and some of the

Tim Winders:

greatest times that I can think of are even in our, our previous life or our

Tim Winders:

life now is just as to be with people at a table or over a cup of coffee and not

Tim Winders:

have to have everything figured out about.

Tim Winders:

You know who you are.

Tim Winders:

I don't have to sign off to you.

Tim Winders:

You don't have to sign off to me I'm just interested in who you are and it's a gift

Tim Winders:

if the interest is returned then we can actually have a conversation together and

Tim Winders:

and that's just a really beautiful way to be a human being and I think you're

Tim Winders:

right and that when we Discriminate and say we have to check off boxes before

Tim Winders:

we can be hospitable to somebody It's just, it's such a wrong starting place.

Tim Winders:

It just doesn't have any place, even with that word, I don't think.

Tim Winders:

And there's no biblical precedent for it

Tim Winders:

the, the thing that I kept, this kind of came to my mind a number

Tim Winders:

of times, primarily when I was reading some of the letters that you wrote, Andy

Tim Winders:

was, I kept getting a visual of Jesus.

Tim Winders:

With the woman at the well, and one of the things I've talked to my wife about this,

Tim Winders:

I've tried to repent and all that my voice come across with a very, know it all tone.

Tim Winders:

And, and I have to attempt to soften it or someone might think

Tim Winders:

this guy thinks he knows it all.

Tim Winders:

Even though I don't think that I do, maybe I do.

Tim Winders:

Maybe there's some issues there, but I keep reminding myself of that.

Tim Winders:

That woman at the well, and I even use things like, I really

Tim Winders:

wish we would use more what I call woman at the well language.

Tim Winders:

And, and I kept thinking about it in the book because to me, I kept

Tim Winders:

hearing woman at the well language because if we look at the business

Tim Winders:

world, we don't often get it there.

Tim Winders:

If we look at a lot of relationships, husband, wives, I see some talk to people.

Tim Winders:

I'm wow.

Tim Winders:

Is this your Partner, this is, and, and we definitely, we, see it in

Tim Winders:

the political arena and some of our leaders and, and things like that.

Tim Winders:

So is that, is that a good representation that, that one of the things you're

Tim Winders:

sharing is how Jesus, who, who, if people know the background of the woman at the

Tim Winders:

well and the story, there was every reason for there to be discrimination there.

Tim Winders:

But yet we saw.

Tim Winders:

None is, is, is that, is that a good

Tim Winders:

thing for me to think of when I'm reading through your letters?

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I think so.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

I like that.

Tim Winders:

So that.

Tim Winders:

leads to

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: It's, will you give me a drink?

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

And the stages, I mean, it's almost like an outline of the stages of relationship.

Tim Winders:

so you go from the simplicity of can I have a drink to I see you.

Tim Winders:

I see the deepest part

Tim Winders:

Right.

Tim Winders:

So one, one

Tim Winders:

of the things that was intriguing I think I told you all early on that I

Tim Winders:

got, I didn't know a lot about you But I got to know you from reading this

Tim Winders:

book And there were a number of things that were intriguing that I obviously

Tim Winders:

would love to ask more about, but the one thing that I want to do, and I'll

Tim Winders:

let either one of you or both of you tell this, and that is the art house.

Tim Winders:

I saw it early on in the book and then it unfolded a little bit more what it was.

Tim Winders:

And then, and then later I got more of a description of it, but

Tim Winders:

I guess, Andy, if you can start, tell me what the art house is.

Tim Winders:

Was and is, and then maybe Charlie, if you want to chime in after she's done, just

Tim Winders:

because to me, it, I think it speaks to a lot of who the two of you are as much

Tim Winders:

as almost anything is this concept of

Tim Winders:

the art house and what it was.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I'm going to try to make a long story

Tim Winders:

much shorter and say that the art house began with an idea of a place.

Tim Winders:

To gather.

Tim Winders:

And in the beginning, it was more specifically for artists to gather for

Tim Winders:

fellowship, teaching, and hospitality, and to really, connect the dots between

Tim Winders:

biblical faith and daily life and vocation with a, with a more artist centric focus.

Tim Winders:

And then that grew, so it was a place, and it began with an old, at that time,

Tim Winders:

an old Methodist church that was built in 1912, and we bought that place.

Tim Winders:

It was down the street from our house.

Tim Winders:

We had, we were a young family at the time, pretty new to Nashville.

Tim Winders:

And this idea, this longing, this thing that was beginning to take

Tim Winders:

shape, had taken shape in Chucks.

Tim Winders:

journals and in his mind and in his heart and he was feeling called and

Tim Winders:

propelled toward this thing that was kind of difficult to explain but was growing

Tim Winders:

and he was trying to explain it to me and I was kind of like hmm uh I'm not

Tim Winders:

sure what I'm not sure but and then a place became available and we had this

Tim Winders:

kind of wonderful kind of miraculous but really great story which we probably

Tim Winders:

don't have time to tell it but There was this old church, it was down the street

Tim Winders:

from our house, we bought it, and then we started hosting gatherings there.

Tim Winders:

And all kinds of people came, from students at Belmont and

Tim Winders:

Vanderbilt University, older people.

Tim Winders:

And it grew from being a place that was just for artists to being a place

Tim Winders:

where lots of people wanted to come for different kinds of gatherings.

Tim Winders:

and to hear, to hear different authors and speakers and theologians

Tim Winders:

and musicians and filmmakers.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

So then that was the beginning and we, but then three years after beginning

Tim Winders:

this work, we moved our family in to this place and we, we, what's the right word?

Tim Winders:

Well, we consolidated.

Tim Winders:

We had a separate recording studio.

Tim Winders:

We had a separate home.

Tim Winders:

And, we consolidated everything on this one property so that we were living there

Tim Winders:

and the recording studios were there.

Tim Winders:

And the gathering place for people to come.

Tim Winders:

Yeah, and family life.

Tim Winders:

And so we were, renovating all the time.

Tim Winders:

That's what I was trying to say.

Tim Winders:

so creating this beautiful place, and I was planting gardens, and we were

Tim Winders:

feeding people, we were living there, we were raising our family, we were making

Tim Winders:

records, or Chuck was making records, and there was the, the business part of our

Tim Winders:

life, and everything was all together.

Tim Winders:

But hospitality, this welcome, was at the center of it all.

Tim Winders:

No matter what else was being done or created, hospitality was the center.

Tim Winders:

We're welcoming you into our home, into our studio.

Tim Winders:

So that was like, very core value.

Tim Winders:

And then we lived, we ended up living, almost 25 years in this place.

Tim Winders:

And, and so it grew from just a place to gather to being a place where we had

Tim Winders:

a lot of house guests and dinner guests and studio guests coming inside to

Tim Winders:

have lunch and just all these different things that you could not imagine.

Tim Winders:

set out to, to really know that's what you're creating in

Tim Winders:

the beginning, but that's what it became as God was leading us.

Tim Winders:

And now, so it kind of became this movement.

Tim Winders:

And then some people took this and, and started an art house in Dallas.

Tim Winders:

And then, and that was the Reeves family and, So there's an art house, Dallas,

Tim Winders:

and they just have served Dallas.

Tim Winders:

And so the kind of the central thing is creativity for the common good.

Tim Winders:

That's a little, the little tagline and they do all kinds of things, all

Tim Winders:

kinds of programs and serve their city in lots of different ways.

Tim Winders:

And then in art house north is in St.

Tim Winders:

Paul, Minnesota, and that is run by, by, Sarah Groves and her husband, Troy Groves.

Tim Winders:

And they are in an old church that they have created an art house north

Tim Winders:

and they do all kinds of hosting and gathering and gosh, name some of it.

Tim Winders:

That's great.

Tim Winders:

That's great.

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

Like art house Dallas is they have a, a building, but

Tim Winders:

they're more of a pop up model.

Tim Winders:

So they use a lot of different facilities and, and we're talking

Tim Winders:

like highly organized, the, the whole.

Tim Winders:

Dallas area, the DFW area.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I think they had over 150 events last year.

Tim Winders:

and yeah, Art House North in St.

Tim Winders:

Paul is a little more like the way Art House in Nashville was

Tim Winders:

when Andy and I were running it.

Tim Winders:

and, but they do like theatrical productions.

Tim Winders:

I mean, they have partnerships in the community.

Tim Winders:

with, for a lot of different regions, they do, specific artist care.

Tim Winders:

I mean, they have square dances, which is really cool.

Tim Winders:

songwriters, songwriters, workshops.

Tim Winders:

yeah, yeah, it's, it's quite, extensive

Tim Winders:

The,

Tim Winders:

the reason that's fascinating on multiple levels for me.

Tim Winders:

And one of the things that I've been saying for some time in the role that I'm

Tim Winders:

in is that the closest thing I have seen to what I believe that the early church.

Tim Winders:

And I'm, and I want to make sure I word it that way.

Tim Winders:

So it doesn't come across that.

Tim Winders:

I think I know what I'm talking about because I don't think I

Tim Winders:

do, but my observations as I've traveled and work with companies and

Tim Winders:

startups and things like that, I've observed that coffee shop culture.

Tim Winders:

Startup and coworking spaces, to me, seem to have the vibe that I read about

Tim Winders:

through my eyes in the Book of Acts.

Tim Winders:

And, to contrast that, that somewhat frustrates me when I go into the way most

Tim Winders:

churches are structured in our culture.

Tim Winders:

And also have to say to you guys, the people listening,

Tim Winders:

no, I wasn't saved in a church.

Tim Winders:

I was saved in a business setting.

Tim Winders:

So my paradigm is a bit different than people.

Tim Winders:

I'm not sure that a church setting would have done it.

Tim Winders:

I think I read, Charlie, where a saxophone is, which that's, Got to be a cool story.

Tim Winders:

We don't have time for where someone who was a saxophonist helped you meet

Tim Winders:

Jesus, which, wow, that's, that's cool.

Tim Winders:

But,

Tim Winders:

but to me, and I don't know if this was intentional or if it just

Tim Winders:

formed up the way, the way it did.

Tim Winders:

The art house sounds a lot like the church of the book of acts.

Tim Winders:

Is that correct?

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah, I think so.

Tim Winders:

I think there's people, that.

Tim Winders:

It's like, if you're going to have a house church, you got to have

Tim Winders:

somebody who's got the house that, that's going to be like, well, your

Tim Winders:

house is perfect for this, right?

Tim Winders:

and that person's got to be willing, that person's got to

Tim Winders:

be willing to do that, right?

Tim Winders:

And so yes, and, there's that just in terms of the infrastructure and the place

Tim Winders:

and, and then, is this a I mean for us, I mean we wanted to have a place that had

Tim Winders:

some built in magnetism and, and sort of could speak without, without us speaking

Tim Winders:

so that it would say, come in, be welcome.

Tim Winders:

Which, as we know, I mean, that's what good architecture does

Tim Winders:

and, good, groundskeeping and, beautiful gardens and all of that.

Tim Winders:

you step onto a property like that and you Oh, people tend to this,

Tim Winders:

there's, there's already, I just got out of my car and I've already been

Tim Winders:

hit with this wind of intentionality.

Tim Winders:

Right?

Tim Winders:

So maybe I'll be tended to, maybe I'll be cared for, if I keep walking

Tim Winders:

the walk up to the door and see what happens when the door opens.

Tim Winders:

we played with that, I mean, that was very intentional and, and all the art

Tim Winders:

houses, I mean, they all have that kind of aesthetic and, yeah, with, with

Tim Winders:

an emphasis on that, I mean, we have, because we've been in the arts and faith

Tim Winders:

intersection for so long, we've, we've had the opportunity to speak and all kinds of

Tim Winders:

places with all kinds of kinds of people.

Tim Winders:

And I remember, Decades ago, Andy and I having this revelation together

Tim Winders:

about we were at this place speaking on imagination and creativity, right?

Tim Winders:

In the most, like, in the single most unimaginative, uncreative

Tim Winders:

environment possible, right?

Tim Winders:

With so little attention paid to the people who were coming to it,

Tim Winders:

who'd put down their, whatever, 35 bucks for the weekend or, and And we

Tim Winders:

just thought, we'll never do that.

Tim Winders:

We'll go broke if we have to, to, in order to not do that.

Tim Winders:

But that, it's like we're not going to say we profess to believe something

Tim Winders:

and then create the contradiction.

Tim Winders:

So that was just such a good lesson for us.

Tim Winders:

That it, that it, and it's not about having a lot of money.

Tim Winders:

It's, it's really not.

Tim Winders:

I mean, I've saying on a lot of these podcasts that we've done when people

Tim Winders:

talk to me about imagination and creativity and I've said like, one of

Tim Winders:

the most radical things that you can do in creating is creating a mood.

Tim Winders:

it's just setting the stage for good to happen.

Tim Winders:

The way you're greeted, are you greeted?

Tim Winders:

Hopefully.

Tim Winders:

Are you greeted by being known?

Tim Winders:

I mean, we we're grateful to you that you read our book.

Tim Winders:

So that speaks to us, right?

Tim Winders:

That speaks to us to that.

Tim Winders:

We have been known in some way.

Tim Winders:

And so that that prepares our hearts more to be open to you.

Tim Winders:

And that's just the exchange of the way we humans work best together.

Tim Winders:

And when we don't have that, that's when you see things

Tim Winders:

organizations that don't work.

Tim Winders:

Well.

Tim Winders:

I don't care whether it's a huge corporation or it's a five person team.

Tim Winders:

But when you don't have that, I mean, full well from your own work that that's that's

Tim Winders:

one of the first things you've got to fix.

Tim Winders:

What's interesting earlier, Charlie, you mentioned that,

Tim Winders:

especially in the industry you were in, the industry I'm in, really anyone

Tim Winders:

where there's an exchange of money or a possible exchange of money.

Tim Winders:

I've even actually seen this in church settings.

Tim Winders:

Things can become very transactional.

Tim Winders:

It's very transactional in that if I do this for you, you either

Tim Winders:

pay me or you do this for me.

Tim Winders:

And Everything about the tone that, that I feel coming from you, and

Tim Winders:

I'm not, I don't think we're totally pure that, we, we don't do some

Tim Winders:

things or we don't, we're not okay with someone paying us for things.

Tim Winders:

We definitely are.

Tim Winders:

But everything about the tone

Tim Winders:

of this conversation about the book is anti transactional more.

Tim Winders:

communal, anti, business about money, more about love and interacting,

Tim Winders:

which to me, I think that's, I've done deep dives into the kingdom of God.

Tim Winders:

And y'all can tell by my language, the, the contrast between the kingdom

Tim Winders:

of God and the Babylonian system.

Tim Winders:

And, this is dollars and cents over here.

Tim Winders:

This is love.

Tim Winders:

And that was the foundation, I believe of what y'all were, Projecting, I

Tim Winders:

think with your book, I've got a couple more quick things before we wrap up.

Tim Winders:

And one was, I wasn't sure if we'd get down this path, but I saw

Tim Winders:

somewhere, Charlie, that you were, you were really utilizing, AI, or

Tim Winders:

at least you had some AI interest.

Tim Winders:

I hope I read that right.

Tim Winders:

And, and I have two, and I've actually interacted with some Christian groups in

Tim Winders:

the podcasting circles and all that are almost like, scared, afraid, whatever

Tim Winders:

they, they question things like the integrity of someone that is using it.

Tim Winders:

And as a creator, as someone who I think you call yourself a

Tim Winders:

improvisational creator what are your

Tim Winders:

thoughts on AI?

Tim Winders:

And, we don't have.

Tim Winders:

Two hours here.

Tim Winders:

I wish we did, but you know, in a few

Tim Winders:

minutes, talk about where we are with creating things doing things with, with

Tim Winders:

this new tool, I call it a new tool.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: right.

Tim Winders:

Yeah, it is.

Tim Winders:

It is a new tool.

Tim Winders:

yeah, I would direct people to sort of my introduction and talking about this.

Tim Winders:

They can just look at my own podcast, Music and Meaning, and they'll see a,

Tim Winders:

a, an episode on the subject there.

Tim Winders:

But in short, I would say, I have an openness to the new technology.

Tim Winders:

Because that's the way I'm wired.

Tim Winders:

I do have an openness to things and I I don't make sort of like quick

Tim Winders:

judgments, like, oh, that's nonsense, particularly when I see how much people

Tim Winders:

are investing in it and and how much it's it's sort of been like the frog in

Tim Winders:

the pot, I mean, it's been around a long time, and we're already indoctrinated

Tim Winders:

into using a lot of it, right?

Tim Winders:

Whether you call it that or not.

Tim Winders:

I think what's really happened is that people have now woke up

Tim Winders:

to like, we're actually going to call it artificial intelligence.

Tim Winders:

and before they were just calling it Siri, right?

Tim Winders:

They're just talking to Siri.

Tim Winders:

and now, now they know like, Oh, so that's.

Tim Winders:

That's part of this whole artificial intelligence thing.

Tim Winders:

For me, for the music part of it, I'll tell just a very short story.

Tim Winders:

I started out with analog recording, okay, which is, analog tape, This

Tim Winders:

is, it's a magnetic process that imprints the sound on this tape, right?

Tim Winders:

So most of anybody who is 60 years and older who's ever owned a

Tim Winders:

cassette, knows this process, right?

Tim Winders:

Well, then we move to moving around ones and zeros on a computer,

Tim Winders:

which is the way all music is made today with very few exceptions.

Tim Winders:

Transcribed and then we, of course, there's a whole group

Tim Winders:

of baby boomers and Gen Xers out there who listen to CDs, right?

Tim Winders:

And now we just stream.

Tim Winders:

And when you're streaming, you're just streaming the same kind of

Tim Winders:

data that was embedded in a CD.

Tim Winders:

So I tell just a little bit of that to help listeners see that this

Tim Winders:

is just a big potpourri of, of.

Tim Winders:

these interchangeable technologies that we're playing with and mixing up.

Tim Winders:

And now what we have with the possibility with AI, from a musical standpoint, is

Tim Winders:

I can literally take your mp3, right, of, that you recorded on your voice memo

Tim Winders:

of your grandchild's birthday party, I can find your grandchild's voice and

Tim Winders:

you're saying, Oh, I just hate that.

Tim Winders:

I can't hear her telling us.

Tim Winders:

Thank you for that birthday gift.

Tim Winders:

Well, I can go in isolate that voice.

Tim Winders:

Now, pull it out, raise the volume of it, put it back into the

Tim Winders:

recording and hand it to grandpa.

Tim Winders:

And now they've got their grandchild's voice saying, oh Papa.

Tim Winders:

Thank you so much.

Tim Winders:

I love this bicycle.

Tim Winders:

Right?

Tim Winders:

So there's a lot of just small practical ways that the technology of artificial

Tim Winders:

intelligence will be used in helpful ways.

Tim Winders:

It is going to undermine some jobs.

Tim Winders:

Like I'll give you one example and then we'll just move off of it.

Tim Winders:

But for example, if you're a musician who produces sort of low hanging fruit music.

Tim Winders:

That's, that's under bed music on a TV show.

Tim Winders:

And you're used to getting like 500 to 750 for a 20 second, 30 second

Tim Winders:

clip of music that you can't quite hear, but it's supposed to sound like

Tim Winders:

a rock band from the 1970s, right?

Tim Winders:

You're not going to have a gig anymore.

Tim Winders:

There's going to be one person who just simply uses all this artificial

Tim Winders:

intelligence to produce that music and they're going to have like,

Tim Winders:

VP of AI at ABC television, right?

Tim Winders:

And they'll have a couple of helpers and they'll do all the music

Tim Winders:

for it for that level of music.

Tim Winders:

But it doesn't mean that they're still not going to go license some big song

Tim Winders:

or some new hit song or like that.

Tim Winders:

But it's those little pieces that like we use music all the time, but

Tim Winders:

we're not really listening to it.

Tim Winders:

So anything like that is probably going to be going to be replaced by AI in some way.

Tim Winders:

And not only that, Andy, I know,

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: That's that's my introduction to

Tim Winders:

And I, I I'm using it quite often and I tell people I'm

Tim Winders:

using it as a brainstorming partner and a writing assistant because, we

Tim Winders:

create quite a bit from, of content from these And, and then we feed it

Tim Winders:

through some tools that we have, and it creates some, small content items.

Tim Winders:

And I'm still overseeing it all.

Tim Winders:

It's still part of,

Tim Winders:

but you know, it kind of, it kind of brings me to the last question.

Tim Winders:

I'll go, I'll go with you, Andy, and then we'll wrap up here and talk

Tim Winders:

about how people can find the book.

Tim Winders:

It does, At times make me ask, what am I creating for?

Tim Winders:

Who am I creating for?

Tim Winders:

And is something like the writing process more for me, or is it for

Tim Winders:

the person that I'm writing it for?

Tim Winders:

So just kind of, I'm just curious.

Tim Winders:

Cause obviously, Andy, I, I told you, I loved your writing.

Tim Winders:

I felt as if I was able to really get to know you with that.

Tim Winders:

Who do you write for?

Tim Winders:

Do you write for you?

Tim Winders:

Were you writing for me?

Tim Winders:

Were you writing for someone?

Tim Winders:

What's, what, what is that as, as we finish up here?

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah.

Tim Winders:

What's the The beginning of writing for me is that I'm writing out of this deep

Tim Winders:

sense of I have to write if I don't write somewhere And that could be in

Tim Winders:

a journal it could be something that is not meant for somebody else, but in

Tim Winders:

this particular book, obviously I was I was writing for the the publishing

Tim Winders:

company that we'd signed to But prior to that, I had written a lot of these

Tim Winders:

different parts of what ended up being the, what ended up in the book.

Tim Winders:

I had written them along the way of my life for just for a blog that

Tim Winders:

we had or for a magazine or for just my own self, kind of because I

Tim Winders:

need to write my way through life.

Tim Winders:

as a response to life and to understand what's going on.

Tim Winders:

So it's kind of, it's all that.

Tim Winders:

And it becomes narrowed.

Tim Winders:

If, if I'm writing it, definitely for a book, then I don't really

Tim Winders:

know who's going to buy the book.

Tim Winders:

So it's still a place of I'm sitting at my desk and I'm

Tim Winders:

asking God to direct my writing.

Tim Winders:

And, and then also I'm writing out as out of a sense of I love to do that.

Tim Winders:

I can't not do this in some form.

Tim Winders:

I would say connecting back to the AI conversation in terms of

Tim Winders:

artistry and the, the writer's voice, Andy is a perfect example of

Tim Winders:

the writer who should not use AI.

Tim Winders:

In other words, if we're going to have all of this AI doing different things, we want

Tim Winders:

to, we want to have Andy Ashworth in the world that we can come back to and say,

Tim Winders:

like, okay, this is just pure writing as self discovery with the community in mind,

Tim Winders:

and I can come to this writing and receive something that I can't get anywhere else.

Tim Winders:

And so I believe that very strongly not just for her writing,

Tim Winders:

but for all kinds of artistry.

Tim Winders:

And then just as much as I believe that for you, if you told me you said,

Tim Winders:

look, I always know that it's I want 500 words as my introduction and we

Tim Winders:

have a general way that we do it.

Tim Winders:

So I start with, an AI template that I do and then I start.

Tim Winders:

Adapting language from there.

Tim Winders:

I'd be like, yeah, that makes perfect sense,

Tim Winders:

Yeah.

Tim Winders:

And I,

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: and, and there'd be no, like,

Tim Winders:

there'd be no negative judgment.

Tim Winders:

It'd be like, who your audience is.

Tim Winders:

You're, you're doing it every week.

Tim Winders:

You want it to have a certain tone.

Tim Winders:

It already has.

Tim Winders:

It's like, why, why mess with it?

Tim Winders:

You're just, you're going to do some plug and play of information, right?

Tim Winders:

And then you're going to add more to it.

Tim Winders:

That's going to be personal and all of that.

Tim Winders:

And that's something that AI can help us do,

Tim Winders:

and I think the message part of y'all's message in the book

Tim Winders:

is there's room for all of that.

Tim Winders:

we don't necessarily, and, and we do know, here's what we know about a tool like AI.

Tim Winders:

There will be people that abuse it.

Tim Winders:

Every technology that has ever existed, there has been abuse.

Tim Winders:

And, but we know that it's not as if that should

Tim Winders:

surprise us.

Tim Winders:

And so that doesn't mean we're fearful of it or any, anything like that.

Tim Winders:

You brought up something, Charlie, I think in one of the letters that you wrote, and

Tim Winders:

I kind of linked it together with what.

Tim Winders:

Andy was just saying, and that is for me, when I'm purely writing, not writing as

Tim Winders:

a tool for getting information out to a large group of people or different things

Tim Winders:

like that, if I, when I'm purely writing, it is impossible for me to multitask

Tim Winders:

and multitasking is I've realized

Tim Winders:

for me, I need to do less of it, even though I think I'm good at it.

Tim Winders:

I don't need to.

Tim Winders:

Do that as much.

Tim Winders:

I think you even said that right, Charlie.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: I my point in the book was that I

Tim Winders:

thought I was really good at it.

Tim Winders:

But you learn after a time that that you may be getting one thing

Tim Winders:

really really good and the other three things you're juggling or

Tim Winders:

approximations, they're good enough.

Tim Winders:

It's because you're highly skilled, right?

Tim Winders:

So they're good enough to get by and they do their work, they do their job,

Tim Winders:

but they don't have that pinnacle of excellence, like the one thing if you're

Tim Winders:

just sitting down and concentrating on it.

Tim Winders:

And it's, it's actually one of the reasons why I love what

Tim Winders:

I am doing here and with writing it's, it's like, I Charlie and Andy

Tim Winders:

for 60 minutes is my singular focus.

Tim Winders:

And, and that I believe, unfortunately, I love what y'all talked about with

Tim Winders:

the art house and other things that unfortunately, even with all the tools we

Tim Winders:

have to connect with people, we're really connecting with less quality in many ways.

Tim Winders:

So I love that.

Tim Winders:

One

Tim Winders:

of the things I love, let's go back.

Tim Winders:

Kind of start wrapping here.

Tim Winders:

I, when I'm reading through this, I'm really wanting to ask the

Tim Winders:

question of two people that have had extremely rich lives, rich careers,

Tim Winders:

again, almost 50 years of marriage.

Tim Winders:

I'm kind of wanting to ask, how are you defining success now?

Tim Winders:

And you, Did it somewhat in the book, but I'm going to let you verbally tell

Tim Winders:

me because it could be a little bit different verbally than it is in writing.

Tim Winders:

So Andy, maybe first for you, how are you defining success right now?

Tim Winders:

And then Charlie will jump to you.

Tim Winders:

And then I've got a couple of questions we'll wrap up with.

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: success for me is I think when

Tim Winders:

I am at my best, I'm coming back to the fact that I am grateful.

Tim Winders:

I think that, that we're together, that we have people who love us

Tim Winders:

and that we have people to love.

Tim Winders:

I'm grateful that.

Tim Winders:

I do get to write, which is a really important thing to me.

Tim Winders:

And, it's those kinds of things that make me feel a kind of success

Tim Winders:

that is not a numbers thing.

Tim Winders:

It's not quantifiable.

Tim Winders:

I can't measure it.

Tim Winders:

There's no possibility of measuring.

Tim Winders:

So I think if, if I leave from this life onto the next life and I really

Tim Winders:

have a central goal, like if my children and my grandchildren know and are

Tim Winders:

sure of that they are deeply loved and that we have loved them and I have

Tim Winders:

loved them, like that will be success.

Tim Winders:

That will be That will be a fruitfulness and or that other people have been

Tim Winders:

felt loved and cared for and you know The relational part of things is in

Tim Winders:

place That's where I feel fruitful grateful and also I also can't be

Tim Winders:

the one who measures that so that's kind of like a Resting place of

Tim Winders:

that's kind of great because yeah,

Tim Winders:

an eternal measurement,

Tim Winders:

not there's an eternal measurement, not a, my wife and I've been focusing

Tim Winders:

on attempting to understand eternity more, knowing full well that we can't.

Tim Winders:

But part of that feeds into that answer.

Tim Winders:

That was a great answer there.

Tim Winders:

Charlie, how about you?

Tim Winders:

How are you defining success now?

Tim Winders:

Or what do you want to say about success?

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah, really similar to, to Andy.

Tim Winders:

I have achieved all of the worlds, in my, in my small music world, I've

Tim Winders:

achieved all of the, the mountaintop awards and experiences that are available

Tim Winders:

and, grateful for those, that's, that's the world standards of success

Tim Winders:

according to the music business, and, But I'm also at a point in my maturity

Tim Winders:

is that if, if I would continue to be driven by those things, I would

Tim Winders:

be a man who hadn't learned anything.

Tim Winders:

And so the, I'm, I'm grateful, but I'm also like Andy, I just want my kids to

Tim Winders:

love and respect me and my grandkids.

Tim Winders:

and I want them all to know how deeply they're loved.

Tim Winders:

And, and I, I want to, leave my time here in this part of my mission, as I leave

Tim Winders:

for the next part, I just want to leave.

Tim Winders:

I don't want to have any enemies.

Tim Winders:

I don't, I want to have all men's made.

Tim Winders:

I want to like, Clean up and throw away a lot of stuff that I don't need.

Tim Winders:

I don't want to leave my kids.

Tim Winders:

And mostly I just want, at the end of the day, I want Andy and, and

Tim Winders:

my kids and grandkids and everybody who knows me to just say, Oh yeah,

Tim Winders:

no, he was definitely with Jesus.

Tim Winders:

Yeah,

Tim Winders:

Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: He was, he was definitely, if there

Tim Winders:

was a Christian, then he definitely,

Tim Winders:

I, I think that's good.

Tim Winders:

And, for those of us that attempt to measure things, I'm an engineer

Tim Winders:

by training and that's like, man, how, how do we quantify

Tim Winders:

things that are not quantifiable?

Tim Winders:

I think that's the thing that's so fascinating to me.

Tim Winders:

And so the, both of the responses and my wife and I've been

Tim Winders:

through like all couples ups and downs and things like that.

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And the thing that we say over and over again is that we wouldn't wish our journey

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on anyone, but we're so thankful that we've been through it because it's, it's

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who we are and it's how you end up with a

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book.

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Like you guys have why everything that doesn't matter matters so much.

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The way of love in a world.

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I've heard excellent book.

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Like I said, I rarely recommend books to my wife.

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I'm recommending this.

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And it's when I finish it, I've got it on my Kindle right here.

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I finished it earlier and, my wife will be reading that.

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So appreciate you writing that we are,

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Thank you

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we are seek, go create those three words.

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My final question here, before I do a wrap up, seek, go or create,

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I'm going to allow you or force you depending on your personality.

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And with the two of you, it could be one of you says, Oh, he's going to

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force me and the other one might say, he's going to allow me, I won't tell

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you which one I think it is, but, I'm going to allow you or force you to pick

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one word, seek, go or create just real quick, which one do you choose and why,

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and don't overthink it, this is not like a scientific things, seek, go or

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create, Andy, which one do you choose?

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Choose and why, why seek?

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: it's my starting place.

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Seek, and then create, and then go, probably in that order.

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Very good.

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Yeah.

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But seek is first.

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cause I want to know, I want God to, yeah, I just, I, I need to seek first.

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you.

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Very good.

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How about you,

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Charlie?

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: think people who, yeah, I think

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people who know, maybe some of your listeners that know my work would

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think that I'm going to pick create.

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But I'm gonna pick seek to, seek is the starting place for everything.

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I love that.

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Andi Ashworth and Charlie Peacock: Seek ye first the kingdom of

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and there's a reason

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that they're in the order that they're in and y'all could probably guess that.

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Andy and Charlie, I've enjoyed this so much.

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the book again is why everything that doesn't matter matters so much.

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And I love the tagline, the way of love.

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In a world of hurt, we need more messages like this.

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I encourage everyone to get the book.

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Thanks for listening in.

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This has been a great conversation.

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I've enjoyed it.

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We do have new episodes every Monday here at Seek Go Create.

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And, I just encourage you to subscribe, follow, leave reviews,

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all of those things, because they help us get messages like this out.

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So again, thanks for listening in until next time, continue being all.

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That you were created to be.

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