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vitalityPRO
#008 Tony Pemberton - Epigenetics: Reversing your Age Clock
Tony is a certified Epigenetic Coach, following on after a long career as a Building Information Modelling Engineer. He re-trained in epigenetics in 2021 after being diagnosed with ADHD and discovering that contrary to what his Doctor told him, lifestyle does greatly impact symptoms. So much so, that he was able to able to come off his ADHD medication entirely.
Tony on a daily basis reads DNA, epigenetic, and gut microbiome reports for clients, giving them tailored advice, which over time shows in their overall health and wellness. His experience gives clients a unique consultation of quickly connecting the dots of past and present biomarkers, and values engineering the right supplement list to fit any budget.
Tony also presents his YouTube podcast "The Enhanced Man", discussing all of the latest longevity research. He very much practices what he preaches, and is currently ranked in the top 30 of the Rejuvenation Olympics.
> During our discussion, you’ll discover:
(00:01:55) What are Epigenetics
(00:12:44) Biological vs Chronological age
(00:15:23) The different age clocks
(00:19:54) What is Tony's approach with his clients
(00:32:26) Rapid fire questions (NAD precursors & rapamycin)
(00:41:31) How Tony incorporates these into his own life
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Transcripts
Hello everybody and welcome to the vP Life Podcast brought to you by vitalityPRO.
Speaker:My name's Rob and I'll be your host on today's episode.
Speaker:Today we're joined by Tony Pemberton.
Speaker:Tony, who owns and operates Epic Genetics, is a qualified epigenetics coach and
Speaker:content creator based in the south of England, who made the transition from
Speaker:the engineering world to the functional health space several years back when he
Speaker:realized that if he wanted to solve his own health challenges, then he would
Speaker:have to do so without relying on doctors and the medical system in general.
Speaker:During our discussion, Tony and I talk about what epigenetics actually
Speaker:are, the different types of epigenetic tests that are currently on the market,
Speaker:and how they're actually not just the fluff tests I thought they once were.
Speaker:We end off with Tony's thoughts on the mTOR blocker rapamycin
Speaker:and the various peptides he uses as part of his own protocols.
Speaker:As usual, we get through a lot during today's episode, so be sure
Speaker:to check out the show notes and transcripts should you need them.
Speaker:Then finally, our little podcast is slowly gaining traction, and we'd
Speaker:love it if you could leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker:This will help us to grow, reach more people, and allow
Speaker:us to host future guests.
Speaker:And with that, on with the show.
Speaker:Good morning, Tony.
Speaker:Thank you for joining us on our podcast today.
Speaker:We'll be discussing a lot, I know, but would you just like to quickly
Speaker:introduce yourself, uh, who you are, what you do and all that good stuff?
Speaker:Uh, yeah.
Speaker:So, uh, my name is Tony Pemberton.
Speaker:I'm the founder of Epic Genetics.
Speaker:So my company, we predominantly look at DNA, like, uh, different SNPs,
Speaker:you know, areas to look at on that.
Speaker:And then, uh, following on from that really, I'd like to go deep into
Speaker:epigenetics, so looking at how your genes are expressing, and then also
Speaker:the gut microbiome too, just looking at changes in that and certain
Speaker:lifestyle factors that can affect that.
Speaker:Okay, that's awesome.
Speaker:Let's start with the basics.
Speaker:I suppose genetics is often seen as the code or the quote unquote blueprint
Speaker:that our bodies use to create.
Speaker:Enzymes and proteins and the building blocks of what is essentially us,
Speaker:but epigenetics are different.
Speaker:Can you sort of explain at a high level what epigenetics are?
Speaker:So, yeah, so epigenetics is looking at your DNA sequence
Speaker:and how that is expressing.
Speaker:So certain genes are methylated, you know, that means they're turned off and
Speaker:then you've got ones that you definitely don't want to have them methylated,
Speaker:for example, tumor suppressing genes.
Speaker:And as we get older, that this is how people measure biological aging through
Speaker:methylation is looking at that sequence and how that gene is expressing.
Speaker:So it becomes more and more defunct, how that gene is methylated, those
Speaker:certain, um, how it's encoding itself.
Speaker:Cool.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So that's pretty fascinating in and of itself.
Speaker:I believe someone, I suppose, one of the key features or
Speaker:traits you might say about.
Speaker:Epigenetics are that they are reversible.
Speaker:As you just mentioned, you sort of, your body goes through this process
Speaker:of methylation and things can be methylated and turned on and turned off.
Speaker:And to me, this is pretty exciting because it's, it seems to indicate
Speaker:that our genetics are maybe not set in stone as we once thought they were.
Speaker:Is this something you, you would agree with?
Speaker:Can we sort of modulate our genetics based off this?
Speaker:theory of epigenetics to help us sort of turn on and off
Speaker:certain processes as we age?
Speaker:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:I think, like, I mean, people throw around different figures, but around,
Speaker:they say about 80 percent of your health outcomes is lifestyle related.
Speaker:So, you know, related to your epigenetics, whereas 20 percent is your hardware,
Speaker:you know, encoded in your, DNA, but then it breaks down even further.
Speaker:When you go into something like cancer, they're, they're, they're saying it's
Speaker:around 93 percent of cancer is down to lifestyle factors, not, you know, some
Speaker:faulty gene that means you get cancer.
Speaker:Yes, there is 7 percent estimated that is.
Speaker:You know, there is genetic components of cancer 100%, but the
Speaker:rest of that, that 93%, they're all factors that can be changed
Speaker:through having the right lifestyle.
Speaker:I suppose that is, that applies to other disease states as well,
Speaker:like your neurological conditions.
Speaker:I know, obviously, if you have, with regards to genetics, your, your APOE gene,
Speaker:uh, depending on whether you're at what's called a three, three or three, four, or
Speaker:four, four, that's going to alter your.
Speaker:your propensity maybe for actually developing the condition.
Speaker:Do you think that That is something that also can be modulated by these
Speaker:lifestyle interventions as well?
Speaker:For sure, yeah.
Speaker:Because with the APOE4, I mean, when they look at tribal communities, compared
Speaker:to the people on a Western diet, there is still a factor involved there,
Speaker:but it's nowhere near as significant.
Speaker:So there's something in the Western lifestyle.
Speaker:That is, you know, affecting the way those genes are expressing.
Speaker:So, and there, there's not just the APOE4 gene that relates to Alzheimer's.
Speaker:There are, there's lots of other factors.
Speaker:Of course.
Speaker:I don't think there's any disease where it's one particular gene monogenetic.
Speaker:It's, it's a, all these diseases are polygenetic.
Speaker:There are, it's a lot more complicated than that.
Speaker:But yeah, for sure.
Speaker:Genetics do have their role.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, I suppose.
Speaker:In my world, which is biochem, you would look at this sort of
Speaker:molecular reductionism, sort of taking a complex process and reducing
Speaker:it to just one single mechanism.
Speaker:And we know that With outcomes data, that is, that's very rarely the case that a
Speaker:disease process or a biological process is not the, just the result of a one
Speaker:single mechanism in the body and, uh, people in the, in the diet space who are
Speaker:very sort of troubled about their diet, I think, tend to get stuck on that as well.
Speaker:People will, will pick a.
Speaker:a food group or a plant toxin, and then they will sort of demonize the, that
Speaker:entire sort of, well, the food category as a result and say, you cannot eat spinach
Speaker:because oxalates and you're going to die when, uh, and, uh, and obviously when you
Speaker:look at the outcomes data, so beyond just that mechanism, that, that plant compound
Speaker:could also have so many other benefits.
Speaker:Anyway, that that's, sorry, that's a tangent already.
Speaker:And we've not even started.
Speaker:So just moving on to testing quickly, cause I'd really like to sort of
Speaker:take a deeper dive into what testing is when it comes to epigenetics in
Speaker:any case, but there's a lot going on in that space at the moment.
Speaker:I'm testing, I mean, and maybe it's, I suppose you, what you would call the Bryan
Speaker:Johnson effect, but everybody is trying to seemingly quantify absolutely everything.
Speaker:And genetics are no different.
Speaker:Can you sort of tell us what epigenetics are looking at and how they're different
Speaker:from more traditional genetic tests maybe?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So say the epigenetics is looking at certain factors.
Speaker:It could be your immune system, certain immune system cells.
Speaker:It can even be, some of these reports look at clinical factors, like, uh, you
Speaker:know, you might see from a blood test, like, um, your fasting glucose, HbA1c.
Speaker:But they're looking at, uh, epigenetic biomarker proxies of that.
Speaker:And so which can give a longer trajectory and it could actually even
Speaker:be more indicative of health outcomes, like longevity than the traditional
Speaker:clinical factors for normal blood.
Speaker:But yeah, I mean, just going down into that deeper, I mean, looking at your
Speaker:epigenetics, they're, they're, they're looking at it, they're, they're,
Speaker:they're comparing, I mentioned about telomeres, but, um, they're looking
Speaker:at a study, how it actually affects.
Speaker:Aging or health outcomes and the, now the third generation clock.
Speaker:So like you're DunedinPACE that has about 60 percent relevance to, uh,
Speaker:your, the health outcomes of yourself, whereas telomeres, which is used to
Speaker:be the kind of gold standard people would rave on about, it's only about 2.
Speaker:8%.
Speaker:So it's not insignificant.
Speaker:It doesn't, it's still important to know that.
Speaker:And especially if you're telomeres.
Speaker:Getting a very short, you know, bottom fifth percentile, that can
Speaker:be a risk of certain cancers too.
Speaker:But yeah, looking at epigenetics, if you think of the epigenetics, as I was saying,
Speaker:like, it's like your software of your DNA, where your DNA is your hardware.
Speaker:So, and then as you get older, that's how they measure the biological
Speaker:ageing, what areas are turned off.
Speaker:And yeah, going, getting, getting deeper into it, they, a lot of these tests
Speaker:are now looking at these epigenetic biomarker proxies and they're able
Speaker:to give like organ system ages.
Speaker:So that's quite a useful thing for people to know what areas of their body.
Speaker:are particularly inflamed, for example, your liver, your kidneys.
Speaker:But then also just other factors to these biomarker proxies for all kinds of things.
Speaker:So you might find out, um, you know, for example, there's a metabolite for uridine,
Speaker:which your body, you might be low in that.
Speaker:So without doing that test, you might find out if you just did a biological
Speaker:age, Oh, I'm aging slowly, but the same, it might be the same intervention.
Speaker:If you're aging fast, the most.
Speaker:kind of a well known one is calorie restriction.
Speaker:So, and that's where finding out the why you're aging is that's the real kind
Speaker:of, uh, interesting area at the moment.
Speaker:And do you, in your experience, I mean, I'm sure you do other testing.
Speaker:Are you finding that these, these proxies are sort of then potentially matching up
Speaker:with the more traditional markers that are sort of found in, well, uh, I suppose
Speaker:the traditional serum makeup, if, for example, you have And this is beyond my
Speaker:realm of expertise, but if you've got a liver that is according to your epigenetic
Speaker:test as sort of in a state of just very broadly speaking, ill health, do you find
Speaker:that correlates with then direct markers of liver inflammation of that you would
Speaker:raise ASTs, ALTs, et cetera, that you would find in more traditional tests?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, like I say, it gives a longer term picture.
Speaker:So I mean, for example, I've mentioned about fasting glucose.
Speaker:If you look at the actual biomarker proxy, the number, I mean, these come out in
Speaker:the American units they use, but, uh, or HbA1c, the reading is not exactly the same
Speaker:because, you know, you're looking, fasting glucose is that reading for that day.
Speaker:Obviously HbA1c is a longer trajectory.
Speaker:But they're both, um, they're extremely relevant and I mean, they're showing
Speaker:that some of these methylation patterns can be even more accurate, uh, or more
Speaker:indicative to, um, to health outcomes.
Speaker:But to answer your question that, uh, yeah, I think that it really does,
Speaker:um, depend on what you're looking at and say, yeah, I've seen plenty of
Speaker:things where it flags up, say, uh, kidney distress and then they go for
Speaker:a blood test and, uh, yeah, you know, your blood urea, nitrogen is high.
Speaker:That kind of thing.
Speaker:So it does tally over.
Speaker:So good example of myself, HbO1c was showing my epigenetic proxies that
Speaker:were showing as healthy, but my fasting glucose wasn't, and it's exactly
Speaker:the same as in my serum blood tests.
Speaker:I've managed to correct that over time now, getting my fasting glucose down.
Speaker:But yeah, these things, that's why I really like them is because you might
Speaker:not test it as so frequently as just a traditional blood test, but it's But it
Speaker:gives you an area if you're to test, even just say once a year, gives you an areas
Speaker:to focus on during that year, all these weak points of mine, let's test them a
Speaker:little bit further and focus on them.
Speaker:So, so actually come to think of that's pretty cool because what these tests are
Speaker:then doing is they're, they're removing the obstacle, which, what, which is fairly
Speaker:common in traditional blood tests, which is that you're only seeing that particular
Speaker:mark at a certain point in time.
Speaker:. And correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that with these
Speaker:epigenetic tests, you can sort of almost look at them over the course of a, of
Speaker:an, uh, well, a predetermined time period and look at the health of the organ
Speaker:or the system in, in, in its entirety, opposed to just that one moment in time,
Speaker:as you would with a blood spot test.
Speaker:Blood test.
Speaker:Is that correct?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And then another good one is um, C reactive protein, you know, uh, whether
Speaker:it's high sensitivity or not, it's, it can, that can fluctuate a lot.
Speaker:And whereas when you're looking at the methylation patterns of that,
Speaker:it gives a much more stable reading.
Speaker:I think it's like 6.
Speaker:4 fold more indicative of chronic inflammation than just your
Speaker:traditional C reactive protein.
Speaker:And in other words, IL 6 as well.
Speaker:That's another good one that the report looks at.
Speaker:Okay, I'm definitely going to have to sort of take back some of my
Speaker:preconceived notions about these tests and do a bit more research.
Speaker:I think if we could just go through two terms quickly, because I think these
Speaker:come up a lot and people, I mean, I'm asked them, uh, on a fairly frequent
Speaker:basis, what they mean, but the difference between biological and chronological
Speaker:age, could you sort of briefly sort of help us break down what those are and
Speaker:then again, what a genetic test may be, may be measuring in terms of these ages.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So yeah, chronological age.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Obviously the, the date that you're born and how old you are, and it's, it's not
Speaker:a bad indicator of like, um, mortality.
Speaker:It's about 75 percent accurate of
Speaker:death say within the next 10 years, whereas it depends on, there's
Speaker:obviously a lot of different biological clocks out there and
Speaker:they all have different algorithms.
Speaker:But the main thing is having one that's validated and has, you know,
Speaker:50 years worth of biobank data to find out what happens to these patients.
Speaker:their clinical outcomes.
Speaker:But, uh, yeah, I mean, a good example is the OMIC clock,
Speaker:which is 92 percent accurate of death within the next 10 years.
Speaker:That's a great one for predicting mortality and looking at morbid.
Speaker:It doesn't, like I said, it's a relative risk.
Speaker:So that's why I urge people rather than it's better to find out when
Speaker:you're say 30 or 40, rather than 60 or 70, when if you've got.
Speaker:an age that's older and it's predicting your chance of death
Speaker:is say 50 percent above average.
Speaker:If it's 50 percent above average of a 30 year old, it's not that big of
Speaker:a deal as you know, you've got a lot of time to change it when you're 60
Speaker:years old, 50 percent above average is, is more relevant for sure.
Speaker:But yeah, there's, there's different clocks out there for, like I mentioned
Speaker:about the systems age one, the symphony age, which is again, another one
Speaker:that's more predictive of health like disease outcomes rather than mortality.
Speaker:And the same with the DunedinPACE, that's just looking at your trajectory
Speaker:and it can change quite fast that one, even within eight weeks.
Speaker:So if you were to quit smoking, you'd start to see positive changes.
Speaker:Whereas the biological age clocks, they can take a long time to reverse
Speaker:that, you know, that this is looking at decades worth of lifestyle choices.
Speaker:So that's why I'd be very wary of, you know, there are certain clocks out
Speaker:there that haven't had the validation.
Speaker:I'd be quite wary of things where you, where you can just change your biological
Speaker:age within a few months and you've shaved off something, some crazy number.
Speaker:Or you see people, although there are a few anomalies out there, but people
Speaker:that have, you know, 60 years old with a, you know, 30 year old biological age,
Speaker:something like that, where it's a few like decades out, it's rare that you see double
Speaker:digits, um, age reversals or acceleration.
Speaker:It does happen, but it's, it's pretty rare.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That was actually going to, that's a perfect segway into my next question.
Speaker:I was going to ask you just that, what you think of the different
Speaker:sorts of clocks in the market?
Speaker:Um, you've touched on most of them, but you also get the glycan age test that
Speaker:are looking at how specific sugars called glycans are affected by the environment.
Speaker:Do you think those are in any way sort of accurate or do you really, are you
Speaker:looking at the sort of the DunedinPACE?
Speaker:Is that correct?
Speaker:Clocks is for the most part as being the most accurate tool for the job.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think the DunedinPACE is the only third generation clock out there where it's had
Speaker:a longitudinal study and big sample size.
Speaker:Um, and then there's, yeah, like I mentioned a couple of
Speaker:others that Geray's doing.
Speaker:And there's also, um, there's, there's others out there, which, yeah, the
Speaker:glycan age, I think it is good.
Speaker:I mean, I speak to people in industry, it's, it's helpful, but the actual
Speaker:aging number, I don't think is, you know, the number it comes out with
Speaker:maybe is not the most accurate.
Speaker:I think it's more of a snapshot in time of say if your body's highly inflamed
Speaker:because you can have some really big numbers change, change in that glycan age.
Speaker:So you see you have women that do start HRT and you can, they can see
Speaker:their numbers drop by could be, you know, 15 years or even more in reality.
Speaker:They're not 15 years younger, or there's an interesting article in
Speaker:the times actually, where they're doing journalists, their glycan age.
Speaker:And he had someone in their early thirties who was, I think it was
Speaker:biological age was coming in at 70.
Speaker:So he may, I don't, I don't think it was the healthiest of people, but
Speaker:he certainly, you know, he doesn't look like a 70 year old I think
Speaker:it's more, like I say, linked to inflammation, that kind of thing.
Speaker:So it can be changed quite rapidly, but as an actual biological age
Speaker:number, I'm not so convinced.
Speaker:And then there's other clocks out there looking at saliva, which again, they don't
Speaker:have that biobank data hasn't been stored for 50 plus years looking at outcomes.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:I mean, you can generate an algorithm from these things, but whether or
Speaker:not that actually translates to reality, that's a different story.
Speaker:And so that often what they're having to do is use your chronological age.
Speaker:to normalize the results with these, say, saliva ones.
Speaker:So then that starts to take out some of the, you know, the accuracy, basically.
Speaker:So you really want something that's replicatable that, you know,
Speaker:within a few percent like that.
Speaker:If you do two tests that day, they'll come in at basically the same age.
Speaker:Whereas if they're, and that's why some of these less trained clocks
Speaker:will have to use your chronological age to be able to calibrate it.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And so you feel that these tests are now specific and sensitive enough
Speaker:to just follow up on what you've just said, that if you were to
Speaker:run these tests back to back, you would indeed get a similar result.
Speaker:If you were to run a true to, True age diagnostic tests, uh, sort of
Speaker:one after the other on the same day, you would get a similar result.
Speaker:As I know, that's often a case in some of these functional medicine tests,
Speaker:uh, like organic amino acids tests.
Speaker:And some of these stool tests, you can run back to back tests and
Speaker:see completely different results, even with the same company.
Speaker:Um, do you, do you generally, have you ever seen that to be an issue or is it?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Not really anymore.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:I mean, looking at the studies, I think, say with the DunedinPACE,
Speaker:it comes, it falls within that 4 percent threshold that day.
Speaker:And then if you look at a serum blood test for certain biomarkers,
Speaker:they generally fall within that same kind of threshold, like 4%.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So they are really getting to the point where they are, um,
Speaker:able to create data that is both accurate and can be replicated.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I
Speaker:was just going to say, I mean, especially with that omic clock, because it's looking
Speaker:at so many different biomarkers, same in the symphony age too, but yeah, you don't,
Speaker:um, that omic clock, you don't see huge where someone does a test five months, six
Speaker:months, four months, even more like, um, like in between, you don't see these huge
Speaker:numbers going like things jumping around that starts to make you think, well, wait
Speaker:a minute, how, how sensitive is this test?
Speaker:When you see.
Speaker:Either all these 36 bar markers or you're overall age, where you
Speaker:see these massive changes, then you start to start questioning
Speaker:how, how accurate is this data?
Speaker:But yeah, with that, you don't see that happening.
Speaker:It's very, very like, it's a slow course thing, changing these numbers.
Speaker:Yeah, a lot of your, I'd like to sort of maybe tack on to a bit about your
Speaker:practice and how you work with people.
Speaker:A lot of your content also is about longevity.
Speaker:And I suppose I'd like to find out what tools you're using to help people
Speaker:sort of optimize themselves once they have sort of mastered the basics.
Speaker:What are you using sort of in your clinical practice to, to help
Speaker:people sort of dial it up to 11.
Speaker:Um, yeah, so certainly like looking at your NAD, I mean, the most basic
Speaker:thing, obviously, is just getting people metabolically healthy.
Speaker:That's like the fundamental, you know, getting the blood sugars
Speaker:in check, you know, insulin sensitive, lipids, looking at that.
Speaker:So all of that, you know, just very, very important.
Speaker:basic stuff.
Speaker:But then on top of that, it's, I mean, the, the easiest
Speaker:win is caloric restriction.
Speaker:It's another basic thing, but then that's easier said than done.
Speaker:And so it's trying to make swaps for people.
Speaker:It's just trying to get the low hanging fruit to start with.
Speaker:Cause as you said, you know, there's lots of supplements out there and
Speaker:people respond differently to them, but caloric restrictions, like
Speaker:they're the most well understood.
Speaker:method of slowing down aging.
Speaker:So it's just trying to find those empty calories, things that you
Speaker:don't necessarily give you any, you know, they might, you know, like
Speaker:drinking a, you know, pint of orange juice, you might enjoy the taste, but
Speaker:then it's a lot of calories there.
Speaker:So there's probably a more effective way of getting those micronutrients.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And a lot of sugar, which is going to obviously contribute to those AGEs
Speaker:as well, which is probably something glycan age, I suppose, would pick up on.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And what sorts of people are you typically working with?
Speaker:Are you working with a lot of people who are already in ill health or are they
Speaker:sort of individuals just coming to you trying to get into that optimal state?
Speaker:Um, yeah, it's more people trying to optimize.
Speaker:You do get people with certain conditions, but yeah, it's
Speaker:more the preventative thing.
Speaker:I think as, as it becomes more well known epigenetics, I think it's going to be, you
Speaker:know, you start to not necessarily get the people who are extremely health conscious.
Speaker:I think I'm starting to get the more mid range people
Speaker:that, uh, you know, they might.
Speaker:Might do a few things for health, but there's, there's still a lot to optimize.
Speaker:And that's, yeah, those kinds of clients I deal with is, you know, it's
Speaker:like, it's quite easy then because there's just so many things you can
Speaker:change and just see those numbers.
Speaker:improve, whereas obviously the more, more healthy you are, there's
Speaker:always things that anyone, you know, there's always things to improve.
Speaker:And yeah, when you look at these reports, it's not never a clean sweep
Speaker:of, you know, this thing, there's always going to be things that, you know,
Speaker:you're just trying to kind of win at, uh, you know, the average basically.
Speaker:So you might, You know, improve things, you know, 80, 90%, but
Speaker:there's always going to be things.
Speaker:So you just keep tweaking and tweaking, but it's like a kind of,
Speaker:you know, it's a journey, isn't it?
Speaker:And it's just like trying to not overwhelm people either, because, you
Speaker:know, you, I could tell them to take 20 different supplements, but for
Speaker:someone who's never taken a supplement , one, you're not going to know what
Speaker:is necessarily working the best.
Speaker:And then two, they're just more likely to get overwhelmed with it, maybe
Speaker:spend too much money and then end up just going from one extreme to the
Speaker:other and just quitting everything.
Speaker:So it's about trying to find those easy wins because yeah, you can be overloaded
Speaker:with information, but then, you know, that people are like, where do I start?
Speaker:Basically.
Speaker:Fair enough.
Speaker:That's a very well sort of rounded approach.
Speaker:If I could backtrack slightly, I'd just like to discuss intermittent fasting
Speaker:relative to caloric restriction.
Speaker:Up until I suppose, relatively recently, actually, There was a lot of to be
Speaker:said about intermittent fasting, extending, uh, extending lifespan.
Speaker:And now again, as you've very eloquently put, it seems to just ultimately
Speaker:come down to chloric restriction.
Speaker:Is that something you feel, sort of with your view of the literature, do
Speaker:you feel that there are any benefits to intermittent fasting to sort of
Speaker:increasing autophagy or is it really just about sort of cranking the
Speaker:dial on getting that those calories.
Speaker:as low as possible, obviously, with respect to metabolic health
Speaker:and not pushing things too far.
Speaker:Yeah, I think that as you just said, yeah, I think the intermittent fasting
Speaker:is more about caloric restriction.
Speaker:But then obviously, it's within reason, you know, you don't
Speaker:want to extend things too far.
Speaker:I think I think maybe the occasional fast, but doing say for fasting 20 hours
Speaker:a day, you know, for months on end, I don't, I don't, I wouldn't recommend going
Speaker:having such a short eating window myself.
Speaker:I think maybe doing your three day fast, whatever it might be.
Speaker:Well, it depends on obviously you, how much weight you carry already,
Speaker:because if you're already quite slim and you do a five day fast,
Speaker:it's probably not the best thing.
Speaker:But, um, yeah, I think having is too short of an eating window.
Speaker:I, I think you, you, in some ways you're, you're more likely to overload yourself.
Speaker:And when you do break that fast, you might have a huge meal to start with
Speaker:and spike the blood sugar for one.
Speaker:And then that can cause oxidative stress in itself.
Speaker:So I think having a, you know, like quite a sensible eating window, so
Speaker:you are, you're not eating close to bed, you're not eating out of boredom,
Speaker:which pushes up your calories anyway.
Speaker:So you kind of, you're learning when, when you're actually hungry and when,
Speaker:when you're eating just out of boredom.
Speaker:boredom for a sec.
Speaker:But, um, yeah, I think, I think like 10 hour eating window, maybe eight hour,
Speaker:just seems to be the kind of all rounder I think that works for most people where
Speaker:you're, you're not eating close to bed and then, uh, you know, having your
Speaker:liver produce insulin during your sleep and then that has negative consequences.
Speaker:But, but at the same time, you've got a nice eating window where, you
Speaker:know, you're not maybe, you know, Overloading yourself or maybe have
Speaker:it because it like I say, if you have a huge meal, you tend to bloat out,
Speaker:especially when you're having proteins and starches all at the same time.
Speaker:It's one thing having a smaller meal with them together when you're having that
Speaker:and maybe having fruit at the same time.
Speaker:You've got all these different enzymes having to break down
Speaker:this food in one huge meal.
Speaker:It's yeah, it can be, um, not, not the ideal.
Speaker:I think
Speaker:fair enough when working with clients, do you sort of ever start
Speaker:them off on one specific sort of type of eating schedule or diets?
Speaker:Do you, do you feel that there's much to be said about utilizing
Speaker:things like carnivore or keto?
Speaker:Or do you sort of prefer a more well rounded approach from the get go?
Speaker:Um, yeah, so a more rounded approach.
Speaker:I mean, everyone's different.
Speaker:I mean, it depends on your gut microbiome as well.
Speaker:Some people, and so that's why there's a bit of nuance in there.
Speaker:But I mean, unless Like as a short term thing, if someone's majorly overweight
Speaker:and they're trying to lose weight fast, maybe they look at the keto kind of area.
Speaker:But I think, yeah, the more well rounded approach for a long term
Speaker:solution, rather than trying to just dramatically lose weight, because
Speaker:then people can put it back on when they go back into a normal diet.
Speaker:So I think, yeah, I don't particularly think, you know, eating huge amounts
Speaker:of protein is necessarily good, but then if you're not getting enough,
Speaker:then you're more likely to get hungry and then eat carbohydrates.
Speaker:So it's, it's trying to find that healthy balance, having
Speaker:lots of fiber in there too.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I suppose this is a perfect sort of segue into my next question, which
Speaker:was when working with people, do you just rely on an epigenetics testing?
Speaker:I mean, we've already established you haven't actually, but what,
Speaker:let me rephrase that again.
Speaker:What other testing are you finding that is beneficial to
Speaker:working with, uh, with clients?
Speaker:Are you sort of solely working with.
Speaker:blood tests.
Speaker:Are you sort of looking at, uh, organic amino acids, testing stool testing,
Speaker:especially with regards to gut, obviously.
Speaker:And again, do you find that those sorts of tests correlate well
Speaker:with the epigenetic testing that we discovered discussed earlier?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, so another one is on top of the epigenetics is, yeah, you say the
Speaker:gut testing and that looks at the stool, which yeah, it does correlate.
Speaker:I've seen like, cause there are certain epigenetic markers, which look at
Speaker:metabolites from the gut and then you can actually flare up gut inflammation
Speaker:and then you look at their guts and then that actually corresponds with that.
Speaker:And then, yeah, so good diving into the gut, you know, you might find foods that
Speaker:You know, your, your gut particularly finds difficult breaking down and
Speaker:then, so it's not so like a, or just say in general, like protein or, um,
Speaker:carbohydrates or fat metabolism, you might find that those macros can, one of them
Speaker:in particular might, your gut might not be the best at breaking that down, but
Speaker:that doesn't mean don't eat those foods.
Speaker:It's just, you have certain food scores, which those gut microbiota
Speaker:actually seem to digest well so that it's just focusing more on those.
Speaker:within that macro, you can just find out different food scores from that.
Speaker:And it even breaks down into, um, uh, nutrients from foods, you know, like, uh,
Speaker:ellagic acid, you know, from pomegranate, some people will have the right, uh,
Speaker:biota to actually convert that metabolite.
Speaker:Speaking of pomegranate, what are your thoughts on urolithin A?
Speaker:And I would like to go back to gut testing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I think, like I said, I think only 30 percent or so, 30, people have are
Speaker:able to, you know, convert the ellagic acid into urolithin A, so I think I
Speaker:haven't actually tried urolithin A myself because I'm, I'm a good converter of it.
Speaker:But yeah, for some people I hear they do, um, like one of my clients,
Speaker:he seems to like urolithin A.
Speaker:Yeah, no, it seems to sort of improve mitochondrial efficiency in people,
Speaker:in some folks anyway, I think.
Speaker:like everything though, it depends where their baseline is at the beginning.
Speaker:Once you sort of got the basic style, then like exercise and well, just
Speaker:healthy eating in general, I suppose you're going to see a less of a
Speaker:return on some of these interventions, but they all do have their place.
Speaker:Don't they just again, going back to the gut side of things, what
Speaker:common, or consistent themes are you finding that people are, are
Speaker:experiencing or issues that they are that are coming up on a regular basis?
Speaker:Is there a lot of candida, a lot of just general dysbiosis and overgrowth of
Speaker:certain type of bacteria or yeah, what are you finding in your patient population
Speaker:that is particularly consistent?
Speaker:Um, quite a lot of antibiotic damage.
Speaker:So I think that's down to not necessarily taking antibiotics, but.
Speaker:Antibiotics from food.
Speaker:You got to remember when you buy chicken or salmon, people eat a lot of
Speaker:salmon and, and that's, they, they use antibiotics to be able to put them so
Speaker:close together, if they're factory farmed, that ends up getting into the meat.
Speaker:So it can actually, that can show in that, um, sugar damage is another one.
Speaker:That was, yeah, you got gut microbiome is particularly renowned on, you
Speaker:know, eating sugar basically.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's, there's a few like that, but yeah.
Speaker:Antibiotic is.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:A lot, not a lot of people realize that they eat salmon and
Speaker:not realizing the amount in it.
Speaker:And so that's something I used to do even myself, but yeah, now just
Speaker:only wild salmon for that reason.
Speaker:I'd tell people the same.
Speaker:Cause it's also, if you look at the quality of the salmon itself, the fat
Speaker:content is huge in the factory farm stuff.
Speaker:And there's heavy metals in there too.
Speaker:So then that can actually, you can see markers for oxidative stress
Speaker:as well from those heavy metals.
Speaker:So it's just trying to minimize your contact with, with these kind of foods.
Speaker:I suppose that's quite poignant because that's just, just a change
Speaker:I've had to make recently, uh, recently as well after receiving some heavy
Speaker:metal tests come back and, uh, Yeah.
Speaker:High aluminum and high mercury go figure, but, um,
Speaker:And were you eating a lot of salmon were you?
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:Uh, well, I thought I was, I thought I was doing the right thing, but apparently not.
Speaker:And that was wild caught, um, not all the time, but the majority of
Speaker:it, but yeah, that was still coming back as, uh, as a high score.
Speaker:Are you finding a lot of sort of heavy metals patient again in your patient
Speaker:population or was that something that's not that much of an issue?
Speaker:No, I'm looking more at, um.
Speaker:markers of oxidative stress rather than the heavy metals.
Speaker:So, but yeah, that's certainly something yeah, to keep an eye on as heavy metals.
Speaker:I mean, there's a lot, there's so, there's so many avenues you
Speaker:can go down with this stuff.
Speaker:There'll be biomarkers you can really focus on, but yeah, I
Speaker:mean, that is an important one, as you say, to look at really.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:A few rapid fire questions, if you don't mind.
Speaker:Let's start with NAD precursors.
Speaker:What are your thoughts on those?
Speaker:I think, uh, NAD precursors Yeah.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:When you're younger, but as you get older, then I think it's
Speaker:about fixing that salvage pathway.
Speaker:And, uh, yeah, you could just take a huge dose of flushing niacin.
Speaker:I've seen that one of my guests who he managed to get his NAD to the
Speaker:highest level it's ever been, but then his DunedinPACE went up at the
Speaker:same time, he's doing 500 milligrams of flushing niacin, so that's causing
Speaker:liver issues at the same time.
Speaker:So it's, it's about how you get to that high NAD level
Speaker:rather than just the precursor.
Speaker:Next one, rapamycin.
Speaker:I know you're a fan of it.
Speaker:Do you think it's something that everybody should be, should be taking,
Speaker:or is it again, very case specific?
Speaker:I think it, yeah, it's probably one of the most well understood
Speaker:anti aging compounds out there because you're just inhibiting mTOR.
Speaker:So I think it's something that's been shown in mice that even if you start
Speaker:into kind of like middle age, so it's maybe equivalent of 40, 45 year old
Speaker:and humans, they still get a lot of those benefits of extended lifespan.
Speaker:So it's not something you need to necessarily rush into say at 30 years
Speaker:old, but it's something I think it really does help across the board.
Speaker:It's very, you know, it's, I don't think it's person specific per
Speaker:se because yeah, you were just slowing down mTOR in general.
Speaker:So it's slowing down that cellular peripheration.
Speaker:in which it correlates to say calorie restriction, which
Speaker:helps across the board as well.
Speaker:So I think it's very much a kind of, uh, a general, uh, anti aging,
Speaker:um, drug that most people can use.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Do you think it has other clinical use cases as well?
Speaker:I mean, it's being used a lot in And still on a pulsatile manner, well,
Speaker:it's starting to be used a lot in a pulsatile manner with people with certain
Speaker:autoimmune conditions where they've just got this excessive immune system activity
Speaker:that's oftentimes regulated by mTOR.
Speaker:Have you ever used it in that sense with anyone or have you just
Speaker:viewed, do you just view it as a sort of a longevity compound?
Speaker:Yeah, I'm more of the camp just doing it all year round.
Speaker:I mean, some people Like to, as you say, pulse it, you know, do it for
Speaker:cycles and then there may be, it might be cause they're trying to like put on
Speaker:muscle some certain points of the year.
Speaker:Whereas I'm trying to like, I think it's just trying to get that happy medium.
Speaker:But yeah, I think it's, it's one of those things you just need to keep an eye on.
Speaker:You know, you don't want to affect your lymphocytes, you know, if
Speaker:you take too much or too little.
Speaker:So like, it's just trying to, uh, Try and find that sweet spot.
Speaker:And I mean, it's not something I generally, I don't only give that
Speaker:general information out on that one because my insurance doesn't
Speaker:cover me for something like that.
Speaker:So I just kind of, um, just say what I do basically and, um, keep
Speaker:it quite, nothing too specific.
Speaker:Of
Speaker:course.
Speaker:And do you think it affects anabolism or at least muscle retention, or was
Speaker:it just the ability to build muscle that it can potentially interfere with?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So the ability to, to build muscle that's, that's in theory, but then if
Speaker:you're doing it once a week, it's not like you're, you can't build muscle seven
Speaker:days of that week, there might be points.
Speaker:And that's where people get into the weeds of what day of the week do I take it?
Speaker:Do I take it if I'm resting over the weekend?
Speaker:Do I take my rapamycin then?
Speaker:I mean, how long does it inhibit mTOR for?
Speaker:And that's still kind of a little bit up in the air.
Speaker:But yeah, for sure.
Speaker:I think you can still definitely gain muscle on it.
Speaker:I've shown that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I just do it all year round.
Speaker:So it's, and I guess it's, um, some people might argue that even
Speaker:the quality, you know, you, you might not be as heavy and muscular.
Speaker:If you didn't take it, but then pound for pound, you, you, you know, you
Speaker:might actually be stronger because you haven't got, you know, your cells haven't
Speaker:proliferated to the nth degree where, so the actual, you know, your pound for
Speaker:pound strength might actually be better.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So it's a, it's working at a tissue level too.
Speaker:And so let me see if I got this right.
Speaker:Is it then working to sort of clear up senescent muscle cells potentially?
Speaker:Yeah, so you've got muscle cells that maybe haven't actually formed right from
Speaker:the outset and then there's senescent or old ones you say like senescent cells.
Speaker:And then in particular, I think it's more people notice it for even fat loss,
Speaker:like they might, um, they might've had some fat that has been hanging around for
Speaker:the last decade around their midsection.
Speaker:A lot of people reported that being on rapamycin, they haven't
Speaker:really noticed much in the way of muscle loss, but they, that, that
Speaker:fat area has actually gone down.
Speaker:Interesting.
Speaker:And you don't think that's just a reduction in systemic
Speaker:inflammation potentially, or just an increase in AMPK signaling?
Speaker:Uh, yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker:I think there's obviously fat cells have a higher propensity for senescence.
Speaker:Maybe it's just clearing out more of them.
Speaker:And then obviously the, yeah, the AMPK, you know, so you're not actually in
Speaker:growth, you know, constantly basically.
Speaker:So I think that may be.
Speaker:You know, um, improves insulin sensitivity and then downstream that
Speaker:could, you know, uh, reduce the, that those fat cells in the midsection.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Big one.
Speaker:Um, peptides.
Speaker:What are your go to ones at the moment?
Speaker:I know there's a lot going on with GLP 1 agonists, but there's also
Speaker:a few new ones making the rounds, such as SLU PP332, which seems to
Speaker:be one of these newest estrogen related receptor agonists, I think.
Speaker:I mean, that's definitely an outlier, but What are your thoughts on peptides?
Speaker:I know you use them personally.
Speaker:Are you using them with your clients?
Speaker:Yes, so I definitely use them personally, with clients I'm a bit more cautious,
Speaker:you know, like I, again, I, I just give general information because they're
Speaker:not really covered unless if you're talking about bioregulators, the ones
Speaker:that are very short chains of amino acids, which have been, um, kind of,
Speaker:uh, isolated from animal organ meat.
Speaker:So they can be sold as a dietary supplement.
Speaker:And then they're, they're very tissue and organ specific, the bioregulators.
Speaker:So they're quite an exciting one and it tends to be very low side effects,
Speaker:only being a few amino acids long.
Speaker:But the ones I'm really, um, hot on the moment, I really like the epitalon.
Speaker:And again, that's, it can be classified as sold as a peptide, but
Speaker:can be classified as a bioregulator.
Speaker:It's a, uh, it's only four amino acids long, that one.
Speaker:And that seems to help with regulating melatonin production.
Speaker:Um, And I've been showing it, I've shown it recently in a video
Speaker:twice where I did a cycle of it.
Speaker:And then you can see my sleep performance go up massively during that cycle.
Speaker:And then during the second one, you know, it's like the idea is to try and try and
Speaker:keep it to a normalized level and then so it gradually goes down and between cycles.
Speaker:And then another one is delta sleep inducing peptides.
Speaker:I've been doing them in conjunction at the same time.
Speaker:And it seems to have, uh, synergistic effect.
Speaker:So inducing more of that deep sleep, these areas that I'm particularly weak on.
Speaker:So that's why I've been covering those ones quite a bit.
Speaker:That's interesting on the DCIP.
Speaker:So you've noticed an actual improvement in deep sleep score
Speaker:and sleep scores with DCIP.
Speaker:Is that correct?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So increasing the sleep scores, which obviously relates to,
Speaker:um, restorative sleep as well.
Speaker:And then that number has gone up too.
Speaker:So yeah, it's definitely an For me, I mean, yeah, the recovery
Speaker:score is still important.
Speaker:We're talking about Whoop here, but yeah, I mean, other things like Auras
Speaker:have a similar thing where they've got readiness and A and N, so that's
Speaker:looking the recovery scores, obviously looking at heart rate variability,
Speaker:various different respiratory rate, that kind of thing, resting heart
Speaker:rate, but obviously the sleep score is something to really focus on too.
Speaker:I find that Even can be even more indicative of how my day is if
Speaker:the sleep score is high and the recovery score is, you know, like
Speaker:Amber, like say 50 percent or so 60 percent is not quite in the green.
Speaker:Generally, if I've had a good night's sleep, I'm generally okay,
Speaker:like it might, my body might not be primed for setting a personal best.
Speaker:But if I've slept well, at least I'm still somewhat recovered.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And just to take a quick step back, bioregulators work off the premise
Speaker:that like feeds like, is that correct?
Speaker:So if you have a thyroid issue, you would take a thyroid bioregulator.
Speaker:Is that the general premise with bioregulators?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So they obviously, they're affecting the gene expressions.
Speaker:That's touched such tiny chains of amino acids that they
Speaker:can actually have an effect.
Speaker:And you typically, you only do them for say 10 days, something
Speaker:like that, just to reset things.
Speaker:And then.
Speaker:I mean, from what I'm gathering, they're not like, you know, like a magic
Speaker:bullet that's gonna fix everything.
Speaker:But, you know, in conjunction with lifestyle, say with, you know, if you're
Speaker:taking iodine for your thyroid, that kind of thing, then it can be like a
Speaker:synergistic, uh, area to kind of focus on.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:That's awesome.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:How are you?
Speaker:I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but how are you incorporating
Speaker:all of this into your life to sort of allow you to live your best life?
Speaker:I mean, we we've touched on a lot, obviously, but to, to ask the stupid
Speaker:question, what are you doing on a daily basis to sort of really dial
Speaker:in, dial in what you do to help you sort of function at such a high level?
Speaker:It's just about trying to prioritize things, I guess, like, you know,
Speaker:I do take a lot of supplements more than the average person.
Speaker:I mean, certainly not as many as Bryan Johnson, but, uh, yeah, it's really,
Speaker:you know, trying to have a strategy.
Speaker:So it's not.
Speaker:I mentioned earlier, when you get overwhelmed with these kind of
Speaker:interventions that some people can just say, well, I'm just going to
Speaker:quit it for a while or indefinitely.
Speaker:So yeah, it's trying to find a way of making it realistic where you're trying
Speaker:to cut down on steps wherever you can.
Speaker:So like with the supplements, just dividing them into daily, pillboxes and
Speaker:then doing that maybe like twice a day.
Speaker:So you're not doing some people might do supplements three times a day, which is
Speaker:just starts getting a bit overwhelming.
Speaker:So just trying to spread them out.
Speaker:Same with food as well.
Speaker:I mean, I be a healthy, it's very hard to buy things that
Speaker:are ready made that are healthy.
Speaker:So it's just trying to, if you can make food from scratch, again, trying to.
Speaker:make it, uh, you know, like cut steps where you can from making it from scratch,
Speaker:just trying to find easy ways of putting that food together or buying food where,
Speaker:for example, it's about trying to get your biodiversity up as well, because if
Speaker:you start focusing on, oh, this food is amazing, then over time that can affect
Speaker:your gut microbiome, the, uh, diversity of it, but also you might start building
Speaker:up an intolerance to that food as well.
Speaker:So it's about diversity too.
Speaker:And yeah, just having good, good general life patterns where you, during the
Speaker:daytime I'm quite like a, I wouldn't say a stressed person, but definitely I try
Speaker:and I'm all systems go during the daytime.
Speaker:And then it's just having that evening where you might try and get everything
Speaker:done at the end of work, then you do a life admin, things you need to get out
Speaker:of the way, and then it's just about relaxation, trying to switch off, which
Speaker:is easier said than done, but for sure that that does make a huge difference.
Speaker:Uh, I was noticing when I was working more hours, my speed of aging went up six
Speaker:points and then since that, since I've.
Speaker:Barely haven't changed very much and it dropped by like 11 points.
Speaker:So yeah, the, the stress and the poor sleep that all those do make a big
Speaker:difference on top of, you know, all the supplements and diet and things.
Speaker:But yeah, it's just trying to, uh, keep the stress down low.
Speaker:So really sort of dialing in the basics and not really worrying about
Speaker:the sorts of the extra bits until you really need them, I suppose, ultimately
Speaker:is the way you're looking at it.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker:You know, not stressing about foods, like, you know, ideally I'd have all
Speaker:my water is nice filtered, you know, properly filtered water, but in reality,
Speaker:you're not going to be able to, you might have to at some point drink tap water.
Speaker:I'm not, it's not the end of the world or foods with high in pesticides.
Speaker:It's just trying to minimize the ones that are the worst.
Speaker:And yeah, so if you, the bulk of your diet isn't laden with pesticides, then.
Speaker:then you're pretty much there rather than overstressing about the minute details.
Speaker:So it's the devil in the detail.
Speaker:You know, you just don't, you know, you need, it's, it's a slow learning process
Speaker:where you just learn to prioritize things, know the worst things, whether that be
Speaker:microplastics, you know, just try not to have things that are heavily laden fat
Speaker:that are surrounded with plastic, for example, heating up something in plastic.
Speaker:A lot of people I speak to don't, don't realize that it's just.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Trying to, uh, keep it to a non overwhelming level.
Speaker:So very much the Pareto's principle approach, the 80 20 and really sort of
Speaker:not fret too much over the small stuff.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's, that's, that's amazing.
Speaker:Well, thank you very, very much for your time.
Speaker:I really appreciate it.
Speaker:No problem.
Speaker:Where can people find you if they want to work with you?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So my company is, uh, epicgenetics.
Speaker:co.
Speaker:uk.
Speaker:And, yeah, if you were to send, there's lots of information on there, I've got
Speaker:videos comparing all the different tests.
Speaker:I try not to provide too many different things because you could go down
Speaker:the rabbit hole with doing, there's so many different tests out there,
Speaker:but I just primarily at the DNA, epigenetics, and the gut microbiome.
Speaker:That's awesome.
Speaker:We'll be sure to link all of those in the show notes too.
Speaker:Tony, thank you very much for your time, we'll have to do this again soon.
Speaker:And yeah, I appreciate it.
Speaker:Thanks for having me.
