Shownotes
Discover the power of love and acceptance as I am joined by the insightful shawndeez, Ph.D., to explore the journey of parenting LGBTQ children. Through our conversation, we unearth the intricacies of identity, acceptance, and the transformative self-discovery that not only reshapes the lives of LGBTQ individuals but also their loved ones. Hear the touching stories that cut across the fabric of spirituality, gender, and the path toward embracing one's true self, offering a glimmer of hope and guidance for those supporting queer and trans family members.
The episode traverses the emotional landscape that parents navigate as their children reveal their gender identities, delving into the delicate balance of protecting and accepting, and the profound realization that unconditional love can deepen through understanding and awareness. We discuss the importance of patience, education, and dialogue in fostering a family environment where differences unite rather than divide. With shawndeez's personal narratives serving as a backdrop, the discussion highlights the healing potential of open-hearted acceptance within the family dynamic.
Listen as we contemplate the societal impacts of gender fluidity, and how fostering joy within the lives of trans individuals can lead to a culture of thriving. Whether you're a parent, a friend, or simply someone seeking understanding, this episode is a beacon of hope and guidance in the quest for a more inclusive world.
About our Guest:
shawndeez, Ph.D. (they/them) received their doctorate in UCLA’s Department of Gender Studies. While at UCLA, they created and led courses on Trans Magic, Queer & Trans Muslim Feminisms, and QTPoC Resistances while simultaneously serving on the Trans Wellness Team, a collective of medical doctors and mental health providers working to provide gender-affirming healthcare to trans students across the UC system. shawndeez’s dissertation research explored how queer, trans, and nonbinary individuals engage with the spiritual as a form of resilience, healing, and possibility. They are now a full-time public speaker, spiritual guide, and workshop facilitator, offering spiritually-conscious spaces for queer/trans people to lean into their joys.
shawndeez is currently most excited for their newest adventure – offering one-on-one support for parents and elders of trans and gender non-conforming people who seek guidance in reimagining their relationship with their child. If you are interested in learning more, please visit their website shawndeez.com.
SOCIALS:
ig - @drshawndeez
website: https://www.shawndeez.com/
the specific page for parent support work: https://www.shawndeez.com/work/parents
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawndeez/
email address: shawndeez@ucla.edu
Connect with Heather:
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Access the course, Learning to Parent with Pride!
Work with Heather one-on-one or bring her into your organization to speak or run a workshop!
Please subscribe to, rate, and review Just Breathe. And, as always, please share with anyone who needs to know they are not alone!
Email: hh@chrysalismama.com
Takeaways:
- The journey of understanding and supporting a trans child requires both time and compassion from parents.
- Sean Dees emphasizes the importance of joy over survival in the lives of trans individuals.
- Parents often carry fear and confusion when their child comes out as trans or non-binary.
- Creating a safe space for open dialogue can help families navigate gender identity together.
- Trans joy workshops focus on making joy a priority for trans individuals and their families.
- Understanding the fluidity of gender allows for a broader acceptance of diverse identities.
Transcripts
Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting youg LGBTQ Team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.
Heather Hester:My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.
Heather Hester:I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.
Heather Hester:Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat.
Heather Hester:Most of all, I want you to remember that, that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.
Heather Hester:Welcome to Just Breathe.
Heather Hester:I am so happy you are here.
Heather Hester:Welcome back.
Heather Hester:If you are a regular listener and welcome, welcome.
Heather Hester:If this is your very first time here, I'm so happy you are here.
Heather Hester:I am really, really excited about today's.
Heather Hester:I have just the most interesting and cool guest.
Heather Hester:So I am delighted, delighted for you to hear.
Heather Hester:But really quick since this is something that I have started this year and I want to keep doing because it has been so much fun for me to do as well is to share reviews that I have been getting and hopes that you will DM me if this is your review that I read and if you DM me, I will answer any question that you have.
Heather Hester:I will do it on video, I will post it on Instagram and YouTube answering your questions.
Heather Hester:So if this is you, please let me know if you have not left a review.
Heather Hester:I would be delighted and honored for you to do so.
Heather Hester:So please take a moment on Apple Podcast to do that.
Heather Hester:And while you're doing that, you can also make sure you are following.
Heather Hester:Um, since the updates that happened at the end of last year knocked a lot of people off of the podcast that they were following.
Heather Hester:So make sure you check that out as well.
Heather Hester:But for today, the review is from Upon a branch is the username and they say inspirational.
Heather Hester:Such a raw and vulnerable podcast supporting the challenges and pitfalls faced in the day to day lives of gender diverse teens.
Heather Hester:As a parent of a now gender diverse adult, I only wish we made available such a wonderfully supportive and insightful resource during our teenager years.
Heather Hester:Thank you, thank you so much for leaving that review.
Heather Hester:I am honored and I absolutely love this work that I do.
Heather Hester:I love this podcast.
Heather Hester:I love working with parents, I love speaking and so it means a lot whenever I hear from people letting me know and I think that you will especially enjoy today's guest who reached out to me A few months ago and I'm so happy that we have finally had the opportunity to connect.
Heather Hester:And I'm just going to read their bio because it is so impressive and there is a lot here.
Heather Hester:So forgive, forgive me for not looking at the camera if you're watching this on YouTube.
Heather Hester:Sean Dees is a PhD and lecturer in UCLA's Department of Gender Studies and has spent the last seven years studying, studying how queer and trans people find spiritual meaning, which is so, so fascinating.
Heather Hester:The more they studied queer and trans spiritual existence, ritual and history, the more they realized the answers they were searching for were not in the books they were reading.
Heather Hester:They were in the crackling fire under a starry sky, the utter silence of a sunrise in the mountaintops, the warmth of sun's rays on their chest.
Heather Hester:While at ucla, they contemplated their dissertation research on how queer, trans and non binary Iranian Americans experienced their relationship to Islam, God, faith and spirituality.
Heather Hester:They created and led courses on trans magic, spiritual explorations of gender nonconformity, Muslim feminisms, queer and trans perspectives and power, US empire and QTPAC resistances.
Heather Hester:They've served on UCLA's trans wellness team for three years working to provide gender affirming healthcare to trans, non binary and gender nonconforming students across the University of California.
Heather Hester:Through their time at the university, they learned that although they're an academic by training, their heart is a ball of spiritual mush.
Heather Hester:Now they practice as a public speaker, spiritual guide and inspirational soul.
Heather Hester:They hold workshops, give lectures and hold private individual spiritual guidance sessions for clients who wish to expand their spiritual practice.
Heather Hester:So without further, further talking, I am so, so honored to bring you my conversation with Shandies.
Heather Hester:Shaun Dees.
Heather Hester:I'm so happy you are here.
Heather Hester:I am happy to have you on the show and for everyone listening to learn from your incredible wisdom and life experience and you are just, you're doing some incredible work in the world and you're so young, so bravo.
Heather Hester:But I am, I'm delighted to have you here.
Heather Hester:I'm so delighted that you reached out and I think that I'd like to just start with you giving a little bit of background about who you are, how you got into this work and, and we'll take it from there.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:Well, first of all, thank you, thank you so much for having me inviting me on.
Sean Dees:And yeah, in terms of a little, little background on me, I, yeah, like to say I was born and raised in Southern California, you know, raised in a little immigrant home, what I consider a normal immigrant home.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And yeah, taught to be a good Woman.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Obviously that didn't work out.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:I was raised to be CIS head, you know, follow a lot of normative gender rules.
Sean Dees:And so I mastered actually the art of repression very young and, you know, didn't have a lot of language around what was happening.
Sean Dees:Definitely didn't have, you know, safe elders telling me my expression or my experience was appropriate.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:It was actually the opposite.
Sean Dees:So a lot of confusion and a lot of self secrecy, actually, as a young person, which was.
Sean Dees:Was a lot to carry.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:It wasn't until I went to undergrad, went to UC Berkeley, you know, I saw other people being queer and I thought, oh, maybe I could.
Sean Dees:Maybe I could do that.
Sean Dees:You know, it's just like a very philosophical idea at the time.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And it wasn't until actually I entered my PhD program, which I did at UCLA, I studied gender studies.
Sean Dees:And, you know, that was where I actually came out as trans, learned myself as trans, medically transitioned.
Sean Dees:And yeah, I think I, you know, tapped into who I want to be and created myself as that.
Sean Dees:And now I get to do this work which is working with the trans community, primarily trans community and queer community as well.
Sean Dees:But, you know, focusing on my trans peers and, you know, what it means to actually allow us to entertain Joy.
Sean Dees:A lot of the work I've done is around trans joy.
Sean Dees:I've created the Trans Joy workshop and do a lot of work around.
Sean Dees:That is, for me, it's actually very spiritual consciousness.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So I do take that spiritual wisdom and offer it to other trans people and allow them to see themselves as divine and beautiful, and it's really transformative.
Sean Dees:And we've been doing that now for almost five years, which is really sweet.
Sean Dees:So, yeah, I'm excited to be here and to discuss.
Heather Hester:I love that.
Heather Hester:Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester:I think that is.
Heather Hester:That is a beautiful, beautiful story and there's so many pieces of that, but I think the initial part of your story and then being able to go away to school and be able to see people that you were like, oh, I identify with them.
Heather Hester:I.
Heather Hester:And so like the power of being able to see yourself in another, whether it's an actual human or in, you know, on screen in a book, whatever, there's such power in that.
Heather Hester:And then going and actually studying this, which I think is so cool, and now teaching it, and you've added or kind of put together this element of spirituality, which I think that they, you know, they are.
Heather Hester:They do go hand in hand.
Heather Hester:And that is something that I think people are a little afraid to talk about.
Heather Hester:So I'd love to go there first.
Heather Hester:Let's.
Sean Dees:Oh, yeah, let's do it.
Heather Hester:Let's do that.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:So is there a question in there or is it just.
Heather Hester:Yeah, there wasn't really.
Heather Hester:I was more of an observation of the story, but I kind of the.
Heather Hester:Let's go there first.
Heather Hester:Let's go.
Heather Hester:Let's just hit that first.
Sean Dees:Yeah, totally.
Sean Dees:Thank you.
Sean Dees:And I will very much acknowledge that there is a serious fear of spirituality, of faith, particularly when we are talking in the queer and trans community, Right.
Sean Dees:Because of the, you know, blatant apparent exclusion of the queer and trans life body experience from traditional monotheistic faith, Right?
Sean Dees:So, yeah, actually I, I always share this, which is hilarious.
Sean Dees:I entered the PhD program at gender studies.
Sean Dees:I was very clear and confident that I was a queer woman of color, right?
Sean Dees:And that was the identity that I held, right?
Sean Dees:And I had, I had no clue.
Sean Dees:I had zero awareness if you had asked me, right?
Sean Dees:Which is hilarious because, you know, I obviously didn't end that way, right?
Sean Dees:I graduated with a full beard and, you know, different body, different life, right?
Sean Dees:But what's, what's interesting, obviously I trust my God, right?
Sean Dees:Brought me there for a reason.
Sean Dees:I ended up studying, obviously.
Sean Dees:Now I have my PhD in gender studies.
Sean Dees:But what I did study, right?
Sean Dees:So what, what did I study?
Sean Dees:And you know, people do get their dissertation, they can actually pretty much study whatever area they're interested in.
Sean Dees:So for me, I was looking at how do queer and trans people actually have faith, right?
Sean Dees:And for me, it was actually looking at my community.
Sean Dees:I'm Iranian, so it was the Iranian American community looking at, you know, how does this community straddle being queer and being trans, right?
Sean Dees:On top of being Muslim, right?
Sean Dees:Which is notably in this country seen as very anti queer, right?
Sean Dees:And, you know, how are the younger generation adopting these ideas, seeing the politics.
Sean Dees:But also for me, the real question was how do they find God, right?
Sean Dees:Where is their God?
Sean Dees:What does God give them?
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:And do they even feel like they can?
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:So those are the questions that I was really interested in because I knew from jump from very young that the only reason that I was alive was because of God, right?
Sean Dees:So I've always had this deep intuitive connection, very clear on that myself.
Sean Dees:And yeah, I guess I was just curious.
Sean Dees:Other people who had my life experience were doing with that question, right?
Sean Dees:Because I've learned everything I have through a spiritual epiphany of some sort, right?
Sean Dees:And I think for me, being trans, you know, while it's about identity and pronouns and body and all that stuff.
Sean Dees:For me, it's actually a deeply spiritual awakening.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:It's a huge, huge transformation where you realize that you haven't been allowed to live your life or you aren't living who you are to be.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And for me, it was a really powerful.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:Moment where I realized, oh, like, I'm actually depriving myself of.
Sean Dees:Of my full life.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so what can it mean to live?
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:And so it was, for me, hugely spiritual to kind of reach that.
Sean Dees:That consciousness.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Wow.
Heather Hester:And was there a moment you.
Heather Hester:You talk about it a little bit, that you.
Heather Hester:You discovered your own magic?
Heather Hester:Was there a moment where you were like, wow, it is.
Heather Hester:It is my spirituality that allows me to be fully authentic in the world.
Sean Dees:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sean Dees:There it is.
Sean Dees:I wouldn't say it's like, I don't have, like, a day and time, but I'll tell you, it was actually during the COVID pandemic, right at the beginning, that first summer when everyone was scared and terrified.
Sean Dees:My partner and I just gave up our lease.
Sean Dees:We left la, we all threw it in the car, and we went to the woods.
Sean Dees:And it was a very wild decision, but it was a time when the entire world was essentially up in arms.
Sean Dees:Chaos, right?
Sean Dees:So it was like no decision was wilder than what we were already going through.
Sean Dees:So we just moved, and we didn't move.
Sean Dees:We had nowhere to go.
Sean Dees:We just, you know, had a few rentals and just did a few months out in the.
Sean Dees:In the woods, Right?
Sean Dees:And for me, I, at that point, was going through a lot of transphobia.
Sean Dees:It was my early transition, so I was experiencing a lot of.
Sean Dees:A lot of ick, a lot of gunk, a lot of not niceness, we'll call it that.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:And so I was like, I need to get out.
Sean Dees:I need to get out, and I need to go back to the earth.
Sean Dees:And so, yeah, for me, the trip actually took us to Idaho.
Sean Dees:We were out in just like, literally the wild of Idaho for a month.
Sean Dees:And that was where a lot of really powerful awareness came to me.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And I think what I always tell people, especially younger people, is I learned some of the most important lessons in my life outside of the university, away from books, in the woods, far away from any classroom.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And I think what it taught me, right.
Sean Dees:Is also as a graduate student, as someone who's invested in the university, who's doing all this work, was, you know, we can't.
Sean Dees:We can't pretend like the university has it all figured out either, Right?
Sean Dees:There's A lot of wisdom to be had or to be found elsewhere.
Sean Dees:And for me, it came in nonverbal ways.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Through the silence of the wild.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so that was really important for me.
Sean Dees:And you know, having, you know, like a month to be out there and to have nothing to do and to really sit and rest with myself and ask really different questions.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Like to have the time to say, who am I?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Who am I?
Sean Dees:What do I want to do with my life?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:What kind of love do I need?
Sean Dees:What kind of love do I want to create?
Sean Dees:How do I want to help other people who have suffered like me?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:I didn't have time to ask that stuff when I was driving two hours in traffic, parking two miles away, walking into work, like, figuring out how to struggle through the daily grind.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So it was really important moment for me to be out.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:Be out of the town, for sure.
Heather Hester:Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester:Yeah.
Heather Hester:To sit in that discomfort.
Heather Hester:Yeah, there's a lot of discomfort there.
Heather Hester:And I like that you said that, too.
Heather Hester:I like that kind of acknowledging that, like, sitting through the ick.
Heather Hester:That that's.
Heather Hester:It's okay.
Heather Hester:Like, those feelings are okay.
Heather Hester:I remember somebody saying to me, when Connor first came out, I was actually sharing with them.
Heather Hester:It was one person that kind of was like, it's okay to let them know.
Heather Hester:And I had.
Heather Hester:It was a family member.
Heather Hester:And I said this, and they said, oh, well, he's been posting lots of homophobic stuff on social media.
Heather Hester:And at the time, I was like, interesting.
Heather Hester:But as I've learned, and now, you know, just like, talking to so many different people, that is a very normal stage.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Like, that is something that is so understandable and.
Heather Hester:And to be able to sit through that and, like, face it, which is what you did and what a gift to be able to do that in that way.
Heather Hester:I mean, yeah, I think there's nothing scarier, but nothing greater than having to sit in that silence and that discomfort.
Sean Dees:Yeah, totally.
Sean Dees:And now, you know, I'm grateful.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:I always tell people, take the trip.
Sean Dees:You're going to learn a lot, a lot more about yourself than you would have elsewhere if you didn't.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:But also, you know, what it offered me now was what I do for a living, Right.
Sean Dees:Which is offer actually spiritual guidance to queer and trans people, which I don't.
Sean Dees:I don't know.
Sean Dees:I don't know if I could or would if I didn't have that time in that initial, you know, crash course and what it means to do that.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So.
Heather Hester:Yeah, right, exactly.
Heather Hester:Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester:Well, and I think I like too, you know, coming from different.
Heather Hester:What is the word I'm looking for?
Heather Hester:You know, a lot of I, I talk about Christianity because that's kind of my background, right?
Heather Hester:And you talking about Islam because that's your background.
Heather Hester:And, and I think that's so important to have these conversations because at the end of the day, right, it.
Heather Hester:Well, I mean, that's a whole conversation for another day.
Heather Hester:But I think that that is.
Heather Hester:I love having, like, people more broad view, well, rounded view of where lots of people are coming from.
Heather Hester:It's not just in one place that we see this one thing.
Heather Hester:So, yeah, having that spiritual journey, I just think is so, so very important.
Heather Hester:And talking about it with young people, which I just love because I feel like so many of them are like, well, there's such ugliness out there, so I don't want any of it done.
Sean Dees:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sean Dees:That's the biggest, I'd say there's, there's an epidemic.
Sean Dees:And it is actually faithlessness, hopelessness, right?
Sean Dees:If people don't want to use the language of faith, it's hopelessness.
Sean Dees:The degree of apathy that I see is out of this world, right?
Sean Dees:And most people come to me and they're like, I have no hope, right?
Sean Dees:They're like, they look at me and they're like, how are you living?
Sean Dees:And I'm like, life is beautiful, right?
Sean Dees:It's like, are we living in the same world?
Sean Dees:And it's like, yeah, we are, right?
Sean Dees:So it really does come down to, you know, what is my real relationship with faith, right?
Sean Dees:Because if we have no faith, if we have no awareness of the divine or we have no relationship to God, right?
Sean Dees:I.
Sean Dees:I've found that to be actually some of the most miserable forms of existence, right?
Sean Dees:And if that, if that is how young people are living, if that is how queer and trans people are living, thinking they can't access God, God isn't there for them, right?
Sean Dees:That's a really lonely life experience, right?
Sean Dees:And, and, you know, I've got.
Sean Dees:I've gotten over a lot of my, whatever personal myths where people are going to think all sorts of stuff.
Sean Dees:As soon as you talk about spirituality, they're like, oh, you're one of those.
Sean Dees:Or whatever.
Sean Dees:And I've had to get over a lot of that cr.
Sean Dees:Because it's so clear to me that this is the only way forward.
Sean Dees:This is the only way to be, right?
Sean Dees:And so, you know, now I do it face first, you know, with a happy face, because it's it's actually so clear to me that there's no, there's no other thing that I could be talking about.
Sean Dees:There's nothing else that I'm here trying to do.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:That's.
Sean Dees:This is, this is clearly where we're going to find our heart and the reason that we're here.
Sean Dees:Right?
Heather Hester:Yes.
Heather Hester:Well, and I, I liked, I love that you are actually giving people permission to find their, their divine connection.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:I think that's one of the misconceptions is that there's, you know, every religion believes in one God.
Heather Hester:That looks a very specific way.
Heather Hester:So being able to kind of break away from that and be like, wait, but my God looks like this, right?
Heather Hester:My faith looks like this.
Heather Hester:And, and that's okay.
Heather Hester:And that, that takes some work, right?
Heather Hester:I mean, that takes a lot of breaking down and building and that's the work that you're doing, which is so vital.
Sean Dees:Yeah, thank you.
Sean Dees:Thank you.
Heather Hester:Yeah, thank you so much.
Heather Hester:I want to shift just a little bit because we were talking about this before we started and I would love to hear your wisdom on, on this.
Heather Hester:I know that you do a lot of work with parents and elders of young people, probably older people too, who have, who are queer and trans and all on the gender, you know, gender, non conforming, gender, non, you know, all, all of the gender.
Heather Hester:And that was so not eloquent the way I said that.
Sean Dees:But, you know, I got you, I got you.
Heather Hester:But I would love to.
Heather Hester:I know that you've had some very personal experience as well as just working with others, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that and then we'll get some specific questions.
Sean Dees:Yeah, totally.
Sean Dees:You know, I think.
Sean Dees:Well, first to just give a synopsis.
Sean Dees:What I do do is now work with parents and elders of trans people and non binary people, obviously queer people as well, but primarily the trans and non binary community, because I don't see it.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So I've worked now with the trans community, you know, like for instance, the young adults, the trans people, for five years.
Sean Dees:And I see them doing the work, them healing them, trying them unlearning.
Sean Dees:And then the parents don't.
Sean Dees:The parents don't.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:I just see very vividly that they'll come back and be like, no one.
Sean Dees:My mom doesn't know it, my dad doesn't get it, my uncle is whatever, Right.
Sean Dees:And so I think what I asked myself was, does my heart have the space to hold both sides of this journey?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And it was like, hell, yeah, actually I do.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Like, someone has to help the parents, right?
Sean Dees:Someone has to help the CIS parents of trans people, right?
Sean Dees:And I just didn't see a whole lot of that.
Sean Dees:So I, you know, basically was like, can you do it?
Sean Dees:And I responded, yeah, and I would love to.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:There's nothing more beautiful to me than restoring family.
Sean Dees:I don't want to hear many more stories about how transness ruins families, right?
Sean Dees:That to me is old news, right?
Sean Dees:So for me, it's like, how do we actually allow transness to bring families closer, right?
Sean Dees:And that's what, that's what I get to do and that's the work that I do.
Sean Dees:And yeah, I think, you know, I found it really refreshing to be able just create a space for parents and elders and start with compassion, right?
Sean Dees:Because nine times out of 10, if there is anything for parents that is informative, it's usually not rooted in compassion, which is so unfortunate, right.
Sean Dees:It's usually rooted in you're behind, right?
Sean Dees:You don't know enough, you haven't figured it out, or you're being a bad parent or whatever nonsense, shame, guilt that's being thrust at parents, right.
Sean Dees:Who are already doing so much to create and sustain the lives of their families, right?
Sean Dees:And so for me, I found it really important to say, what would compassionate space for a mother of a child that's coming out as trans look like, right?
Sean Dees:How can I hold that space for that person so that they can express their fears, right?
Sean Dees:Because I think most of what happens is, you know, parents do love their kids.
Sean Dees:They just have no idea what's going on.
Sean Dees:They don't understand or they're afraid or they think it means something or it's catastrophic, or they think it's the end of their world, it's the end of their social community, right?
Sean Dees:And I think, you know, it's really important to have someone who knows the journey have and hold space for that particular set of fears, right?
Sean Dees:Because I think, you know, to go to those, to take those fears and go to your kid is actually what's really tragic, right.
Sean Dees:Is because the child who's also dealing with all of their own emotions are super intense, particularly at the early, at the onset of transition, right?
Sean Dees:They can't hold.
Sean Dees:Mom is afraid, mom doesn't want to tell, you know, the neighbor, you know, they don't know, Right?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So it's important for them to have a space that's separate from their own kid to really grapple with this.
Sean Dees:And, you know, 90% of the time, I find parents that are just alone they're just afraid.
Sean Dees:They've never heard of this.
Sean Dees:They don't know where to go.
Sean Dees:They have no nowhere that they can think of where it's safe to talk about this.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And obviously a lot of what I'm sharing is the work that I've done, but also very much about my own experience with my mother.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And her, watching her see me learn this, go through all this.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Has been super instruct.
Sean Dees:And I just.
Sean Dees:Now that I've been through it with her, I wonder what would it look like to hold space for people like this because their love is there, right?
Sean Dees:But there's so many other things that are also happening, right.
Sean Dees:And I think if we begin with that love, there's a lot that can come of it, right?
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Oh my gosh, a thousand percent.
Heather Hester:And holding that space with curiosity because that's exactly what they need is that like, place to be where they can like, say all the things.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Like I, like just, like I don't know what to do.
Sean Dees:I don't know how to tell my, my, my neighbors.
Sean Dees:Like, I don't know what's going to happen when my child cuts their hair and looks different.
Sean Dees:What am I going to say?
Sean Dees:How am I going to navigate the looks?
Sean Dees:Because half of transition is also your family.
Sean Dees:Holding that transition, right.
Sean Dees:And learning that and how to talk about you and how to articulate you and share that with the rest of the world.
Sean Dees:That's a lot to do without any guidance.
Sean Dees:That's actually ridiculous that we think that we can do that without any discussion or ref.
Heather Hester:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Heather Hester:I mean that it's so much to hold.
Heather Hester:It is so much to hold.
Heather Hester:And so, yes, having that space, I think is so, so important.
Heather Hester:Even just saying, hey, you can create that for yourself.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:If they cannot access you or access somebody who does this, like, it's okay for you to create that space, to have all those thoughts, to say that out loud, write it down, do get it out.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Because then that's how you move forward, right?
Sean Dees:Because actually most of it is guilt, most of it is shame.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And it's just lodging in the body.
Sean Dees:It's just I've met so many parents that are like, well, I don't know what I'm doing.
Sean Dees:I want to help.
Sean Dees:I don't.
Sean Dees:I'm trying.
Sean Dees:And I'm like, But there's just so much fear.
Sean Dees:There's so much fear and shame in this work, and rightfully so.
Sean Dees:We've made awareness and transness to be seen as such a shameful Thing.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Which is unfortunate.
Sean Dees:But, you know, unlearning that shame as a parent in relationship to the child actually liberates both of you.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:In a way where you're like, oh, what types of nonsensical social shames have I been holding on to because the world told me I should.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And how do I actually get more free when I allow my child to be more free?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:That's actually the larger project.
Sean Dees:Right?
Heather Hester:Yes.
Heather Hester:Oh, my gosh.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:A thousand, thousand percent.
Heather Hester:You had made a comment earlier about becoming a parent, helped you connect with this even more and connect with that unconditional love even more.
Heather Hester:I want to talk about that a little bit, too, because that's a huge piece of this.
Heather Hester:Of this puzzle.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:You know, I say that I never thought I could do this work.
Sean Dees:I didn't even imagine that I would do this work.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:For me, it was actually.
Sean Dees:It was holding both my journey and story with my mother.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Doing that work with my mom as the child.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Of a parent.
Sean Dees:And then also, yeah.
Sean Dees:I think when my partner was pregnant, I started entertaining, like, whoa, what would it mean?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And then actually, when the baby was born, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Sean Dees:Yeah, whoa.
Sean Dees:There's really no words there.
Sean Dees:I was just like, whoa.
Sean Dees:I have.
Sean Dees:I've known love so deeply Right.
Sean Dees:Prior to the birth of this baby, but now I'm like, whoa.
Sean Dees:You know, it's just actually having a child for me is an invitation to love more than we knew we could, which is actually so beautiful.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Which makes me want more children, which is great.
Sean Dees:But, yeah, I think it opened my eyes into particular what you're saying.
Heather Hester:Right.
Sean Dees:What does it mean to love someone unconditionally?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And I actually work with a lot of parents on this because parents love their kids and they say they love their kids, and then they put a billion conditions on that love.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:It's like, but you have to look like this, but you have to dress like this, but you have to, you know, go get this job that I think you should have or whatever it is.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And actually step back into that unconditional love.
Sean Dees:You primarily, probably what you felt.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:In the newborn, in the first year.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:When it is just so pure and there's really nothing else happening is.
Sean Dees:Is, yeah.
Sean Dees:Such a reminder of, like, what can my relationship with my kid be if I remain in unconditional love?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And to remember that I'm human, I will mess up.
Sean Dees:I will, you know, absolutely, positively move more towards conditions and roles.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:But what happens if we can remember and have that awareness and move back into an unconditional love and be that guidance for our kids.
Sean Dees:That's.
Sean Dees:Wow.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:We'd live in a really powerful world.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester:I mean, I have, like, chills sitting here thinking about it because I just had this like, image of, like, untangling, you know, all of the.
Heather Hester:All of the shoulds and the.
Heather Hester:You need and the.
Heather Hester:And it's all fear.
Heather Hester:Like all the fear based things that just get programmed in even without thinking about it.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:I mean, I.
Heather Hester:I fully believe that most of these things that we're programmed with out of fear is not a conscious thought of.
Heather Hester:Right, Right.
Heather Hester:But it.
Heather Hester:It happens.
Heather Hester:And so then just untangling all of that and like, kind moving back and being like, okay, well, this is this, like, extraordinary human being.
Sean Dees:Yes.
Heather Hester:That I had the honor of bringing into the world.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:And so, wow, the.
Heather Hester:It.
Heather Hester:I'm a little bit speechless right now.
Heather Hester:Just the thought of, like, what that could be like.
Heather Hester:Right.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:And that would take, you know, a lot of vulnerability and a lot of, like, willingness to have, like, just be uncomfortable, which is kind of my, you know, biggest thing.
Heather Hester:Like, it's okay to be uncomfortable.
Heather Hester:It's okay to be messy.
Heather Hester:It's okay to just like.
Heather Hester:Right?
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Because that's where the connection is, is like in those moments of messiness.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:And to be able to hold ourselves in.
Sean Dees:In the mess.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Like.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:It isn't always pretty.
Sean Dees:It is not always sunshine.
Sean Dees:We know this as.
Sean Dees:As kids, we've all lived through bad moments, days, periods, whatever it is.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so, you know what.
Sean Dees:What for me is, like, really important is how can we continue to carry the question of returning to unconditional love, whether with your partner, your spouse, your kids, your whoever's in your home.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And that's.
Sean Dees:That's an eternal practice.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:I think some people look at me and they're like, oh, you, you're great.
Sean Dees:You figured it all out.
Sean Dees:And it's like, no, no, I'm grumpy as hell.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:It's like, how do we.
Sean Dees:How do we continue?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:The question is actually how do I have an awareness that brings me back to, oh, I want to be love.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:I want to be loved to my wife, I want to be loved to my kid.
Sean Dees:I want to create that environment so that my child.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Actually expects that in their world and creates a world following Sue.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so there's different ways that we relate to each other.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Like, what if we actually taught our kids to Relate to each other like that as opposed to the terrible things that I hear on the news.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Well, wouldn't that be.
Heather Hester:I mean, it's kind of the whole.
Heather Hester:And it sounds so simplistic, but the idea of, like, relating to one another, like approaching one another with curiosity.
Sean Dees:Yes.
Heather Hester:Like that instant judgment, which we're so.
Heather Hester:That's just so ingrained.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Like, we enter a room full of people and what is ingrained in us to do, judge.
Sean Dees:Right.
Heather Hester:Or compare.
Heather Hester:And instead if we could walk into a room and.
Heather Hester:And be curious.
Sean Dees:Right, Right.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Just that tiny little shift.
Heather Hester:And your mindset.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:I think an open mind is the most underrated and most powerful thing that we aren't tapping into for some reason.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And it's actually like, it's something I practiced a lot in the last few years, and it's led me into a life that is thousand times more enriching.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Because if I don't close the realm of possibility when I go somewhere new, when I meet a new person, when I, you know, I'm experiencing something, if I don't already predetermine and decide what it's going to be or how it's going to go or what I expect and close down, like infinite possibilities.
Sean Dees:Right, Right.
Sean Dees:Life's actually really.
Sean Dees:Life's actually really sweet.
Sean Dees:There's a lot of other things that we're missing.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So that openness brings you new material.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And I think that, yeah, it's.
Sean Dees:It's actually.
Sean Dees:It's just more fulfilling way to relate to the world as opposed to, I already know what's gonna happen.
Sean Dees:I know how this is gonna go.
Sean Dees:I know who you are.
Sean Dees:Right?
Heather Hester:Right.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:And again, I think that all circles back to fear, Right?
Sean Dees:Yep.
Heather Hester:That fear, that's like the underlier and so much, if not most things.
Heather Hester:But I, you know, I think too, it seems like a scary thing because that's.
Heather Hester:We're going to mess up.
Heather Hester:We're going to just 100% like.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:We're going to fall back into old ways.
Heather Hester:That doesn't mean that you can't do it.
Heather Hester:It just means that, oh, look, you're aware enough now that you realized you did it.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:And you can do this.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Like, you can, like, in that moment be like, oh, wait, no, I don't want to do that.
Heather Hester:I don't want to be judgy or I don't want to be whatever, comparing myself to other people.
Heather Hester:I want to be like, oh, this.
Heather Hester:That person looks really interesting.
Heather Hester:Or I.
Heather Hester:Whatever it is, like just that place of curiosity.
Heather Hester:So, yeah, be gentle with yourself, I guess, is my point.
Sean Dees:Right, yeah, yeah, totally, right?
Heather Hester:This is work.
Heather Hester:It's.
Heather Hester:But it's good work.
Sean Dees:It is, it is.
Sean Dees:And you know, in truth, it will set you free, right?
Sean Dees:Because I, I think for me, what I realized when I was coming into my transness, I was, you know, also like, I'm queer, I'm Iranian, I'm Muslim, I'm non, bina, all these things, right?
Sean Dees:I was so aware, right, that the world didn't like my identities, right?
Sean Dees:Like I was carrying this fear, this pressure, this hate, this violence, whoever it was, right?
Sean Dees:So much was hitting me all the time, right?
Sean Dees:And I thought that I had to resist.
Sean Dees:I thought my whole identity, my whole life story was to just resist whatever it was that was hurting me, right?
Sean Dees:And that for me is actually, for me now I'm thinking out loud is like, oh, that's living in that fear mindset, right?
Sean Dees:Is to compulsively be afraid of more pain and then to fight against that pain and to be in that cycle with fear and pain, right?
Sean Dees:And so to actually, you know, I, when I went to Idaho, when I had my epiphany, my awareness, right, it was like, I can't live like this.
Sean Dees:I cannot live like this all my whole life.
Sean Dees:I cannot live like this.
Sean Dees:I think it was more so an awareness of like, it's just exhausting, right?
Sean Dees:And more importantly, God did not bring me here to just fight petty idiots all the time.
Sean Dees:This is not what life is about, right?
Sean Dees:And so I had to pull back and say, what is life about, right?
Sean Dees:And then, you know, the question became clear, right?
Sean Dees:In any moment, in any situation, there's really a fear choice and a love choice, right?
Sean Dees:And what does it mean to one have that awareness, right?
Sean Dees:And then to allow that quest to kind of navigate your life, right?
Sean Dees:And be like, I don't want to eternally live in fear.
Sean Dees:That's a choice.
Sean Dees:It's a really tough one, but it's a choice, right?
Sean Dees:And so, you know, for parents of queer trans kids, right, thinking about how do I, how do I deal with this, right?
Sean Dees:How do I deal with this?
Sean Dees:Well, it's like I can choose fear, right?
Sean Dees:Like the number one thing that I get is I love my kid.
Sean Dees:I don't want them to experience pain.
Sean Dees:So I'm going to tell them to not be this thing that they can clearly just not be, right?
Sean Dees:And yeah, that's the fear based choice, right?
Sean Dees:And that's okay.
Sean Dees:And I've heard it and that's understandable, Right.
Sean Dees:It's coming from love, but it's in practice, it's asking someone to shrink themselves, Right.
Sean Dees:It's asking someone to not be who they are.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And that.
Sean Dees:That's a really dark form of non love.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so as parents, we don't want to give that to our kids.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:We want to love them.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:To go back to what we were talking about a moment ago, what it means to actually just unconditionally love your kid and let them be who they are.
Sean Dees:I'm here, I'm tasked with the job of supporting and raising this being.
Sean Dees:That's it.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So who am I to tell them they shouldn't be who they're telling me they are?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Like they actually know who they are better than anyone.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so it's actually, yeah, I think, really important to create that in that space so that we can realize what a loving response to the kid that's coming with really, you know, perhaps challenging or shocking news.
Sean Dees:How can I love this child of mine?
Heather Hester:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Oh, my goodness, yes.
Heather Hester:And I think that's so interesting thinking of in that moment, there are so many options, right.
Heather Hester:Of how to respond and what to do with that information.
Heather Hester:And.
Heather Hester:And then, of course, you know, for so many.
Heather Hester:There's.
Heather Hester:It takes time.
Sean Dees:Oh, yeah.
Sean Dees:Oh, yeah.
Heather Hester:And that's okay.
Heather Hester:Like the time that's actually good because it's normal.
Sean Dees:It's.
Sean Dees:It makes sense.
Sean Dees:Yes, I totally does.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:I wonder what you would say, though, to a parent who is like, I just.
Heather Hester:I just can't.
Heather Hester:Because you kind of.
Heather Hester:You just address this a little bit.
Heather Hester:But I'd like to go just a little bit deeper.
Heather Hester:I.
Heather Hester:I love them.
Heather Hester:Like in their mind, they're saying, I love my child, but I don't like that they're trans.
Heather Hester:I just can't.
Heather Hester:I don't agree with it.
Heather Hester:I read my own stuff, and all the stuff I read says they're wrong, that it's a choice and they're making the wrong choice.
Heather Hester:But I love them so much.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:What would you say to that parent?
Sean Dees:Yeah, I'd say one, thank you for being here.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Thank you for asking that question.
Sean Dees:Because a lot of parents don't.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So one that tells me the parent is preoccupied and concerned with their relationship with their child, which is actually the first step, right.
Sean Dees:That's.
Sean Dees:That is an act of love.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so then.
Sean Dees:And then comes the declaration, right.
Sean Dees:The verbalization, I love my kid.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And then there's that beautiful word.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:But right and it just shows up and it says, but.
Sean Dees:Which means something else, right?
Sean Dees:Which means actually something in contradiction to I love my kid, right?
Sean Dees:Which is actually precisely what's coming out, as they say, whatever it is that's coming out.
Sean Dees:Right, right.
Sean Dees:Which, which, you know, what I would say to that is it is fully normal and totally appropriate to be terrified of having this news enter your home.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:Yes.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:I always share when I do my talks that when I, when I discovered that I was trans, I wept in bed for a month and I didn't move.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:It was the most depressing thing I'd ever, ever realized, right?
Sean Dees:Because I lived in a world that told me transness was synonymous with more pictures, right?
Sean Dees:So it makes full and total sense, right, That a parent would likewise be terrified of this, of this news, right?
Sean Dees:Because you love your kid and then they're actually coming to you telling you they're going to live a life that's absolutely going to cause more pain, right?
Sean Dees:There's going to be more pain, there's going to be more, you know, let's just say conflict, right?
Sean Dees:With the world, with people, with medical world, whatever it is, right?
Sean Dees:There's going to be a lot of pressure there.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:So that makes sense, right?
Sean Dees:And I think by making that space for parents hopefully allows them to realize, oh, okay, so maybe perhaps I don't need to take out, you know, my fear of what the world's going to do to my kid and turn it into, you shouldn't be trans.
Sean Dees:That's going to make your life harder, right?
Sean Dees:Because, you know, even my mom, my mom, this was what she did.
Sean Dees:She was like, life's going to be really hard.
Sean Dees:I don't want you to go through any more pain.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:Which I'm like, cool.
Sean Dees:But what I, what I told my mom, I'll share what I said to my mom was for the first time in my entire life, I was 24 years old when I, you know, finally told her and came out as trans for the first time in my life, right?
Sean Dees:So for 24 years I've been living and not been happy, for the first time, I found what's going to make me happy.
Sean Dees:That's huge.
Sean Dees:That's unreal.
Sean Dees:If my kid came to me and said, I figured out why I'm not happy, I'm going to be happy now.
Sean Dees:Help me, support me, we'll figure this out, right?
Sean Dees:That's such an invitation.
Sean Dees:That's huge.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:Because we finally have a person who's been struggling for whatever reason because of whatever Messages they've seen whatever world they find themselves in that doesn't feel safe to be themselves, right.
Sean Dees:And then finally figures it out, right?
Sean Dees:Like, actually, what a moment of celebration.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:And, you know, perhaps, you know, not everyone's there.
Sean Dees:Not everyone sees it as a moment of celebration.
Sean Dees:I sure didn't.
Sean Dees:Like I said when I first learned it, I was crying, I was scared, I was depressed.
Sean Dees:It was really dark.
Sean Dees:But now I'm like, wow, it's so beautiful.
Sean Dees:It's actually a child finding more clarity in their own lives, getting closer to happiness that what else could I want for my kid, Right, Right.
Heather Hester:Oh, I love that.
Heather Hester:And how did your mom initially respond to that?
Heather Hester:And then, I know over time, it took time, but what was her kind of initial, if you don't mind me asking?
Heather Hester:If you do.
Heather Hester:Totally understand.
Heather Hester:So do you.
Heather Hester:Tell me.
Sean Dees:Yeah, no, it's one of the most important stories that I share is the story of my mom.
Sean Dees:My mom, you know, I was raised, like I said, in a what I consider normative immigrant household, right?
Sean Dees:We followed gender rules.
Sean Dees:There was no discussion.
Sean Dees:Men were men, women were women.
Sean Dees:And that's exactly what it was.
Sean Dees:And obviously there was this very clear notion of you were going to grow up and be a common abiding heterosexual person, right?
Sean Dees:And so, you know, this was a little while ago, right?
Sean Dees:So not necessarily very recent, but like, in a world that was still very openly anti gay, right?
Sean Dees:In a world that was very common to say things like that, right?
Sean Dees:And so my mom, you know, I think, ingested and put out a lot of that ideology, right?
Sean Dees:So she was just very flatly homophobic, transphobic, right?
Sean Dees:Very, very comfortable in that, right.
Sean Dees:Didn't live in a society or community that checked that, right?
Sean Dees:Because that's what the world was like, you know, 30 years ago.
Sean Dees:So I think for me, I was raised to think the queerness and transits were gross.
Sean Dees:Here's my mom saying that, right?
Sean Dees:You know, walking around, not getting elevators because she sees a queer person, right?
Sean Dees:Like, very visible, very comfortable, you know, just like, no, these people are not natural, right?
Sean Dees:Not normal, those type of stuff that she would say to me.
Sean Dees:And so, you know, as a kid, I was like, wait, what?
Sean Dees:Because, you know, part of me is like not even old enough to conceptualize what's happening.
Sean Dees:But it's like, I'm definitely that thing that mommy says is really bad, right?
Sean Dees:I'm definitely that thing that mommy's scared of, right?
Sean Dees:And it's like, that's a lot for a young person to hold on top of whatever else is happening for them developmentally, Right?
Sean Dees:And so I, you know, was very clear that I couldn't share this with my mom.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:And that's.
Sean Dees:That's also something I think, for parents to chew on, right?
Sean Dees:Is how much of your relationship with your kid are you losing out on if you don't invite the full breath of that human being into the picture?
Sean Dees:You're asking them to erase or hide a part of themselves when they come to the table.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:When they come to sit next to you.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:When they're sitting, you know, on the couch.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:They can't actually share what's happening with them because they don't feel like they can.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And that, you know, it was very clear to me that that was okay because that was the create.
Sean Dees:That was the creative environment, right?
Sean Dees:My mom wasn't like, tell me your gay life.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:My mom was like, get A's.
Sean Dees:Enter graduate school, you know.
Sean Dees:You know, marry a man, whatever.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:Succeed in the normative tropes that she had been taught.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:And I think for me, what's been very humbling and powerful as I get a little older also, is to be like, whoa, how can I have compassion for what my mom.
Sean Dees:Mom went through, what she was taught, right?
Sean Dees:And how she was taught certain values about bodies and gender and relationships and sexuality.
Sean Dees:Now, obviously, I've spent about a decade studying gender and sexual theory, so I've thought about it a little bit more.
Heather Hester:Right?
Sean Dees:But have compassion for, you know, this was what she was taught, and this is what she chose to believe and operate on, right?
Sean Dees:And so there's a degree of compassion, but also acknowledgement of, whoa.
Sean Dees:You know, also, she chose this.
Sean Dees:She chose to reproduce a lot of these ideas, right?
Sean Dees:And to not move in more loving ways, like, oh, like, so what if my kid is queer?
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:I can still love them.
Sean Dees:That didn't really happen, right?
Sean Dees:It didn't happen until, you know, I actually never told my mom that I was queer because I think a part of me, really deep, was like, I'm more than that, right?
Sean Dees:So I never was like, hey, Mom, I'm a lesbian.
Sean Dees:I never had that conversation because I think I knew deep down it was going to be, I'm trans.
Sean Dees:And so I kind of didn't have that conversation until I realized that I was trans.
Sean Dees:And then I had that conversation.
Sean Dees:I invited her into my home and I said, you know, I said, we need to talk.
Sean Dees:I've done that never.
Sean Dees:So my mom knew that it was serious.
Sean Dees:I invited her into my place and I Asked my partner to leave.
Sean Dees:So it was just two of us, and we had the space to ourselves.
Sean Dees:And I just said, you know, I'm not a woman, right?
Sean Dees:I'm not.
Sean Dees:I'm not a woman.
Sean Dees:And her initial response was, yeah, just like breakdown, tears, fear, so much, right?
Sean Dees:The fear of, like, what are you going to do?
Sean Dees:I don't want you to change your body.
Sean Dees:I'm scared of that stuff.
Sean Dees:I don't know what it's going to do to you, right?
Sean Dees:So much fear, right?
Sean Dees:And for some reason, and I believe, you know, again, God was very much with me in that moment.
Sean Dees:I was able to hold space for my mother in that conversation, which is not normal, right?
Sean Dees:Usually when a trans kid's coming out, they are scared.
Sean Dees:They don't know what to do.
Sean Dees:They're freaking out, right?
Sean Dees:But for me, for some reason, my heart did the Grinch.
Sean Dees:It just grew, right?
Sean Dees:It grew three sizes right there.
Sean Dees:And I was able to say, oh, my God, my mom is in so much pain, right?
Sean Dees:And I was able to hold space for her in that conversation.
Sean Dees:Be like, you know, console her a little bit and say, you know, it's going to be.
Sean Dees:It's going to be all right.
Sean Dees:Which is actually funny when I think about it.
Sean Dees:But more importantly, right?
Sean Dees:And she was naming her fears.
Sean Dees:She was naming all of her hesitations, and, you know, she was like, I.
Sean Dees:I don't know what trans is.
Sean Dees:I don't know what this means.
Sean Dees:I don't know what a transgender body modification is, Right?
Sean Dees:But at the end, she concluded with, but I love you, and that was it.
Sean Dees:And that was it.
Sean Dees:That was all that I needed.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:We didn't solve world hunger on that evening, Right.
Sean Dees:But what we had was a commitment that a mother loves her child.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:And with that, we started.
Sean Dees:We started with that.
Sean Dees:We started.
Sean Dees:And it took a long time.
Sean Dees:It took a lot of conversation, a lot of.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:Just reflection.
Sean Dees:And my mom went from being, you know, just this super visible homophobe transphobe to a woman that was signing up for or, you know, a full day workshop on, you know, how can parents understand medical transition and support their kids or something like that, you know, And I was like, wow, wow.
Sean Dees:Oh, there's nothing but wow.
Sean Dees:That's coming out.
Sean Dees:Because it's like, I did not think the woman that I was raised with would ever, ever be able to hold and carry herself in that way.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:What it taught me, which is why I do this work, is parents do love their kids.
Sean Dees:Parents do love their kids.
Sean Dees:And that's Actually, the only thing that I know, right?
Sean Dees:And if I know that parents love their kids, then that is possible, right.
Sean Dees:I believe that there is that inner transformation possible.
Sean Dees:And someone has to believe that.
Sean Dees:Someone has to believe in those parents.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:I know.
Sean Dees:I'm not kidding.
Sean Dees:My mom was bad.
Sean Dees:Like, my mom was, you know, she dragged me to the voting booth and she voted against gay marriage in front of me.
Sean Dees:Like, this was bad.
Sean Dees:This was bad.
Sean Dees:This was real bad.
Sean Dees:So never in million years did I think my mom could be run around correcting people when they use the wrong pronouns.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:It's like, wow, look, look.
Sean Dees:What, what can be done when we choose love and we commit to that love, Right.
Sean Dees:And to go back to another question, right.
Sean Dees:No, it did not happen overnight.
Sean Dees:And I don't like the narrative that, like, once someone tells you you should have figured out within 48 hours, it's like, no, it took.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:At least a year, right?
Sean Dees:At least a year.
Sean Dees:A lot of time.
Sean Dees:Because the parent, parent has to process all this stuff.
Sean Dees:Let's imagine the trans child has thought about this, perhaps, you know, six months, a year, maybe longer.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Mom's hearing about this, perhaps been in such strong denial or whatever, just never thought of it.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so it takes them a long time as well.
Sean Dees:So what does it mean to have that space, that graciousness as you learn something that's, you know, very challenging.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:I think that.
Heather Hester:Oh, that's so powerful that you just said that.
Heather Hester:Thank you.
Heather Hester:Because that is, I think, one of the most important things for everyone to know, right?
Heather Hester:Both people, you know, queer people coming out to their parents and their loved ones, like, they need a minute.
Heather Hester:That doesn't mean they don't love you.
Heather Hester:That doesn't mean they don't affirm you.
Heather Hester:They just need a minute.
Heather Hester:Because this is a shift, right.
Heather Hester:And, and for, you know, parents and loved ones to honor the fact that, you know, your loved one who's coming out to you, this isn't something they just decided overnight.
Heather Hester:This is something that they have thought about for a very long time.
Heather Hester:And, and, and the courage that it takes for them to come to you and say those words.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Immense.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:So to honor that as well.
Sean Dees:Right.
Heather Hester:There's a lot of honoring places that we are totally right.
Heather Hester:And, and it takes, you know, I think that just allowing that, you know, allowing that space, which is one of my favorite phrases too.
Heather Hester:And I always giggle when I say that to people who are not as familiar with this languaging, because people, like, look at me funny and I'M like, okay, I have to explain what.
Heather Hester:But it's such a great, like what I, you know, the first person that said that to me a few years ago, I was like, oh, that's like the perfect way to describe this.
Heather Hester:Right?
Heather Hester:Like just like that's what you need.
Heather Hester:Like just kind of like imagine this container of like.
Sean Dees:Okay, yeah.
Heather Hester:So thank you for sharing that.
Heather Hester:It just, I know that is going to bring comfort to so, so many people and I really, really appreciate that very much.
Heather Hester:And just, you know, wisdom and, and goodness.
Heather Hester:Just a moment.
Heather Hester:Just giving everybody a moment, right.
Heather Hester:I have a question that's totally off subject, but I'm just curious knowing that your PhD is in gender studies and something that has come up in questions and kind of just in general in recent times, I've had a couple of things talking about the fluidity of gender and I'd love to know, like to hear your thoughts on that because I think, and I guess the kind of the background behind this is the thinking, which I'm sure you're fully aware of, is the, you know, people love a binary and people love a box to check.
Heather Hester:So there's a lot of discomfort around.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Any kind of fluidity, any kind of spectrum of anything that this is your area of specialty.
Heather Hester:So I'd love to know just, you know, a little of your thinking on that.
Sean Dees:Yeah, yeah, totally.
Sean Dees:You know, and this is a particular example coming to mind.
Sean Dees:I work with a grandmother who was like, I have a non binary grandchild.
Sean Dees:I don't know what to do, I don't understand.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so we had to have this conversation because, yeah, this turns out there's gonna be more and more gender fluid people now that we live in a society that's slightly allowing people to be themselves.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so what does that mean?
Sean Dees:It means that people that were raised in the very rigid binary world, right.
Sean Dees:Are going to have to engage with this.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Maybe, you know, hopefully absorb it, but also engage with it.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:What does it mean to think about?
Sean Dees:And yeah, in terms of the gender binary and gender fluidity, I think what's really important, right.
Sean Dees:In the way that I've come to learn it and teach it and think through it.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:Is right.
Sean Dees:We live in a social system that's obsessed with these two boxes, right.
Sean Dees:And not just because, because it serves a political function, because it's literally useful, right.
Sean Dees:It's functional to be able to say these are males and these are females.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:We, we've literally constructed our entire society around this and it's worked Right.
Sean Dees:It's comfortable, it's convenient.
Sean Dees:We've raised every single person in our society to believe that this is a natural and normal way to categorize human beings.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:Which, you know, if we step out and step back for a moment, right.
Sean Dees:It's like, well, oh, maybe we went ahead and actually just created that.
Sean Dees:And if we created that, then we can also commit to uncreating.
Sean Dees:It is just the same, right.
Sean Dees:And I think for many people, the non binary is really threatening.
Sean Dees:It's really threatening as an identity because it's confusing because it does not abide by those two categories, right.
Sean Dees:Flatly.
Sean Dees:That's a lot to understand if you're like, there's men and there's women, right.
Sean Dees:I'll never forget in the beginning, when I tell people I'm getting my PhD in gender studies, there'd always be that classic dude that would say, what do you need to study?
Sean Dees:There's men and there's women, right.
Sean Dees:And I'd always talk and be like, yeah, for sure.
Sean Dees:Thank you for that.
Sean Dees:I didn't know.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as someone who now I, you know, consider myself to be non binary.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:I think the question really is like, what is that?
Sean Dees:What does that mean?
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:And for me, I've spent a lot of time reading and writing about it because it's, it's so much more than a gender identity, right?
Sean Dees:It's actually, it's a commitment to life.
Sean Dees:I say that's a commitment to the human body in ways that don't follow the rules that the world gave us, right?
Sean Dees:It's a commitment to this person and this form of expression, whatever, you know, it is that's coming out of me and it says, I honor how I want to express in ways that.
Sean Dees:That is actually the biggest priority, right?
Sean Dees:As opposed to, I'm going to worry about male, I'm going to worry about female, I'm going to worry about gender.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:Because I'm not.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:It's actually, it's a really radical honoring of oneself and whatever that looks like.
Sean Dees:And you know, I think that's.
Sean Dees:Yeah, that's a lot.
Sean Dees:It's a lot to swallow from.
Sean Dees:From, you know, perhaps people that might not have really thought about it for a while, right.
Sean Dees:And I think there's a lot of myths, right?
Sean Dees:It has to look a particular way, right.
Sean Dees:It has to call itself a particular thing or you have to use particular pronouns or all that jazz, right?
Sean Dees:And it's actually like, no, it's just someone that's committed to themselves and honoring their expression above what the category of male or the category of female is forcing on the rest of us, right?
Sean Dees:And it's actually.
Sean Dees:It's choosing freedom, right?
Sean Dees:When it comes to body and the gender.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:And, you know, I think that's.
Sean Dees:That's sweet.
Sean Dees:People that choose freedom.
Sean Dees:I'm into that, so.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Oh, totally.
Heather Hester:Well, I think that's such an interesting way of looking at it.
Heather Hester:And I think is so helpful is being able to.
Heather Hester:I think we don't realize until we sit and think about it specifically, like, the roles of gender, right?
Heather Hester:The roles of man and the roles of woman, of women, right?
Heather Hester:Like where.
Heather Hester:So me as a woman, all the things that are just like, in that I was just programmed with, like, I.
Heather Hester:This is what I am to be and do in this world, right?
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:And to think about, like, stepping outside of that, that and kind of leaving that over here and being like.
Heather Hester:But how do I really relate with the world, right?
Heather Hester:Like, how do I really relate with the people around me?
Heather Hester:The people that I have the honor of meeting and.
Heather Hester:And, you know, having as friends and my children and.
Sean Dees:Right.
Heather Hester:And my partner and.
Heather Hester:And so it.
Heather Hester:I mean, you're.
Heather Hester:Again, a thousand percent.
Heather Hester:I love that.
Heather Hester:Like, it is freedom.
Heather Hester:That's what.
Heather Hester:What all of this is that we're talking about, really.
Sean Dees:Right?
Sean Dees:Which is freedom.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:Yes.
Sean Dees:Which is actually funny because, you know, a lot of people are afraid of the trans.
Sean Dees:What they call the trans agenda, right?
Sean Dees:And it's actually gender liberation is for all people, right?
Sean Dees:And that's actually what's.
Sean Dees:What's really unfortunate, right, Is like, you know, people that aren't in the trans community aren't really invited to see that, right?
Sean Dees:But think of the, like, you know, let's.
Sean Dees:Let's imagine whoever's listening, right?
Sean Dees:Think of the millions of ways that you police your own gender every single day, right?
Sean Dees:I gotta, you know, shave.
Sean Dees:I gotta plug my eyebrows.
Sean Dees:I gotta make sure I'm skinny or I gotta make sure I got muscles.
Sean Dees:I gotta.
Sean Dees:Whatever it is, I gotta not cry.
Sean Dees:I gotta not feel.
Sean Dees:Whatever, whatever, whatever.
Sean Dees:Whatever it is, there's millions of ways, right, that we police our gender, whether you're trans or whether you're cis, right?
Sean Dees:And so the project of actually moving towards freedom, right?
Sean Dees:It's like, what would the world look like if we were free?
Sean Dees:That beauty should not be limited to just trans people, right?
Sean Dees:But trans people obviously get thrown into that consciousness very quickly because of their life experience.
Sean Dees:But, you know, the same to be said for the parents of trans People or anyone for that matter.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Everyone deserves this consciousness so that they are at ease in their body.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:Because think of how much pain and force and pressure we're holding when we live like that.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Well, it's a gift.
Heather Hester:I mean, it really is a gift to every human being.
Sean Dees:Yeah, yeah.
Sean Dees:And everyone deserves it.
Sean Dees:I believe that.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so if we do, then absolutely we gotta do that.
Sean Dees:We deserve that for ourselves and for each other.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And so, you know, question I carry is, how can I absolutely not police Jennifer for myself?
Sean Dees:Because that's a.
Sean Dees:That's a.
Sean Dees:Similarly, it's an eternal dance because everywhere you look, someone's telling you to police your gender.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:But then on top of that, how can I make sure I'm not policing the gender of other people?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And then obviously to reduce that to the nuclear family, to the home.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:To my kids.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:I don't want to police the gender of my children either.
Heather Hester:Right, right, right.
Heather Hester:Oh, my gosh.
Heather Hester:Oh, that is a question we could just really.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Couldn't wait.
Heather Hester:To be continued.
Sean Dees:Perhaps write a new book.
Heather Hester:Yeah, exactly.
Heather Hester:Exactly.
Heather Hester:Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester:Okay.
Heather Hester:Well, I would love to.
Heather Hester:I think this is definitely a to be continued down the road, conversation on seminary.
Heather Hester:Many pieces here, but I would love for you to share how people can get in contact with you and anything else.
Heather Hester:This is your free space to talk about whatever you want.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:Well, in terms of folks want to get in touch with me, reach me for the parent sessions, or if you have a trans child and you want them to take part in the Trans Joy workshop, which is, you know, I believe I mentioned this, but, you know, in case I didn't, Transjoy for me is really about asking, what does it mean to make joy the priority for trans people?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:As opposed to surviving, struggling, bare minimum crumbs, going through life, very unhappy.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:What does it mean to make joy actually the centerpiece of trans life?
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:And how does that reorient how we see ourselves and what we deserve and what we're worth and what this life is about.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:It's very powerful work.
Sean Dees:So I do hold the Trans Joy workshop twice a year.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:But on top of that.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:The parent sessions, I think will be most probably relatable and necessary here for you, your audience.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:And those are, you know, private sessions, I think, because I respect the fear and the intensity that surrounds most of it.
Sean Dees:So I only.
Sean Dees:I only do that work one on one.
Sean Dees:But yeah, folks want to get in touch.
Sean Dees:My email is actually the best way to do so.
Sean Dees:Right.
Sean Dees:So it's Shondu, which I will spell here.
Sean Dees:S, H, A, W, N, D, E, E, Z.
Sean Dees:And that's how you can get in touch with me.
Sean Dees:Obviously.
Sean Dees:You can also find me on Instagram @dr.
Sean Dees:Sean Dees, where I post most of the flyers for the workshops that I hold in different events that I hold in that space as well.
Sean Dees:Yeah, perfect.
Sean Dees:Awesome.
Heather Hester:And I will have all of this in the show notes as well.
Heather Hester:So if you missed that.
Heather Hester:Well, yeah, just take a look at the notes this will be.
Heather Hester:And I'll put it out on all the socials as well.
Heather Hester:And we'll tag you so you can, you know, comment or add to anything that I put out there.
Heather Hester:And I'm just so, so grateful that we were able to have this conversation and to put all of this out in the world because this is just really powerful.
Heather Hester:And, you know, occasionally I get to have an interview where I think, oh my gosh, I have to listen to that again because there's so much.
Sean Dees:What's that?
Sean Dees:Cool.
Sean Dees:I'm honored.
Sean Dees:Thank you.
Heather Hester:So.
Heather Hester:Thank you so, so much for being here.
Heather Hester:I so appreciate it and have a really, really great weekend.
Sean Dees:Yeah.
Sean Dees:Thank you.
Sean Dees:Thank you for having me.
Heather Hester:Thank you for being here today.
Heather Hester:Thank you for listening.
Heather Hester:I hope that you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did.
Heather Hester:It was absolutely a delight and I truly learned so much.
Heather Hester:I was not kidding when I said that I'm gonna go back and listen to this again because there are so many pieces of just wisdom that are in there.
Heather Hester:So please feel free to listen to it twice or three times.
Heather Hester:And again, like I said right there at the end, if you wish to get in touch with Shaun Dees, their information will be in the show notes and on social media.
Heather Hester:And just also a reminder that if you wish to be part of my book launch team for the forthcoming Parenting with Pride, which I'm so excited about, please, please reach out to me.
Heather Hester:Send me an email which also is in my show notes.
Heather Hester:But just so you have it, it's hhrysalismama.com I would love to have you as part of my launch team helping me get this book out into the world.
Heather Hester:Until next time, take care.
Heather Hester:Thanks so much for joining me today.
Heather Hester:If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or a review.
Heather Hester:Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.
Heather Hester:Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.
Heather Hester:And remember to just breathe until next time.
