Your relationship with yourself might sound a bit odd. But it’s so important. How often have you sidelined or neglected yourself to focus on everyone else? When did you last think paying attention to yourself was selfish?

Clare and Aileen share their top tips on how to bring your relationship back to you and reveal how investing in yourself can make a real difference not just to you but to those around you.

Dip into some of the things Clare and Aileen chat about in this episode:

00:36 Why we look away

10:14 Why loving yourself is worth it

14:30 How to check in with yourself

22:06 Recognising and understanding code switching

24:40 Tips for getting in touch with your inner self

30:31 Finding buried treasure

Want to know more?

If you want to hear why it’s so important for your relationships to have ‘me’ time, listen to Episode 9 Me-Topia from Season 1.

Visit our website: The Sex and Relationships Podcast for more information on the issues discussed in this episode. You can also Ask Clare a question or suggest a topic for future episodes.

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About the Sex and Relationships Podcast

This podcast is for anyone looking for information or help with their sex lives or relationships.In this season your hosts Clare Prendergast and Aileen Gonsalves deep dive into the world of relationships to give you insights, advice and top tips to help guide you through your relationships.

Your hosts

Clare Prendergast is a sex and relationships therapist and draws on her knowledge and years of experience in the therapy room to give you help and guidance.

Aileen Gonsalves is fascinated in human behaviour and drawing on her many years in the theatre has developed the unique Gonsalves Method which helps people be more present and develop authentic connections with those around them.

Clare 0:04

Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Sex and Relationships podcast. I'm here today with my lovely, lovely friend Aileen. Hi, Aileen. How are you?

Aileen 0:15

Hi, Clare. I'm really good.

Clare 0’16

So yes, we're going to talk about our relationship with ourselves, that primary starting point from which all our relationships come from. And yet the relationship that so many of us fail to recognise as the primary relationship that everything else is built on.

Aileen 0:36

Yeah. I mean, that's so interesting. Just even hearing you say that as a description, I feel almost disconnected from what you're saying, because I think that it's taken me so long to understand even what you just said, even you describing it as the primary relationship, the relationship they all come from. You know, that's a very alien set of words to describe something about relationships because I always think about relationships as the other. You know, that word just means relating to another person. And, you know, last time it was really interesting to think about all the different kinds. And we're going to be exploring those I know in the series, but it's always another, you know, it's an-other. What you're saying is so vital.

And really Aileen. I don't think you're alone. I think many, many folk will resonate with what you've just said. And it's interesting, as you said, the word other. You know, I think of relationship as a relationship with an-other. And yet I think where we trip up, I think, is we can easily fall into othering ourselves. We neglect ourselves, we miss ourselves. We're kind of, I'm moving my hands across my face here, it's like we sideline ourselves. We put all the focus out there and fail to see that: oh my gosh, it starts in here with me, you know. "Hello, Clare. How are you today?"

Absolutely. You know, in my work, we have a statement in my acting and directing work, which is: seeing clearly, seeing the other person clearly, responding honestly from your point of view. So I've been doing this work for decades. But for decades, I trained my attention to see clearly the other person. It's all about tuning into the other actor, into the other person's behaviour and then responding honestly, which is a whole other story for another day to talk about. But having our honest response. But the key thing that it took me at least a decade to realise I'd ignored was: from your point of view.

And to recognise, you know, what creates my point of view. Because that point of view will depend on what's going on in me. Do you know, if I'm having a bad hair day or I've just woken up in grumpy arse Clare state. My point of view is going to be very different from a day when I'm feeling light and energised and hopeful. I'll look at exactly the same view out of my bedroom window. But the different self that is home will affect the point of view that I have on what I'm seeing outside my window.

Exactly. And I know the work that I did in therapy and you'll know about this really properly, but was essentially understanding that my patterns were completely affecting my point of view.

Yes. It's interesting you mentioned, you know, your therapy and that I'm a therapist and I'll know what you're talking about. And it's kind of like you say that, you know, my patterns and I'm. "Hmm. I wonder what Aileen means?" Because I wouldn't refer to that. I probably would use different words, but to describe the same thing. So when you say your patterns affect your point of view, what do you mean Aileen?

I suppose what I would mean is the patterns of how I relate to things, people, anything have been sort of embedded from childhood patterns and early familial relationships and seeing the world as, you know, my patterns of maybe people pleasing or looking after someone else first, but those patterns of whether that got rewarded or didn't get rewarded or where I sort of built those early beliefs about who I was, how I should be behaving, because those I'd call them patterns because they feel so inbuilt. So I don't really feel like I have a choice. I'm sort of operating on a kind of system that is playing whether I like it or not.

Okay, okay. So, in my language I would describe that as automatic. So, information comes in and the sort of programming that is within you generates an automatic response. And your realisation over time was that there wasn't much choice involved in that because it wasn't coming from Aileen choosing. It was coming from Aileen's programming. And you referred to two things there. You referred to behaviours and you referred to beliefs. What are the behaviours that are coming out likely as a consequence of the beliefs I'm holding on me? So, I mean, one that folk often throw at me is, you know, selfish. If I suggest that you maybe need to be a bit kinder to yourself, or maybe put yourself and your needs a bit higher up the list of priorities, often clients will respond to me, but that's so selfish. You know, they pride themselves on selflessness and the whole generosity of giving and being present to others. And if that attention is brought on themselves and their own needs, then they're selfish. Whereas I would argue it actually is worth considering that whole thing can be flipped on its head and that actually what you are deeming selfish is in fact selfless. Because if I've paid attention to my, you know, it can be my simply my physical needs: have I had enough rest? Have I had the right food? Then how on any way can that be deemed as selfish? It's like that attention to those practical requirements of my body's needs will will enable me to be much more present and able to be alongside and with others when I go into relationship with other people or other situations. When those needs are neglected, the opposite happens. Well, yes. Go go go Aileen.

It's so interesting because that logically makes absolute sense and it feels like such an ideal, what you've just described. You know, I'm someone who doesn't go to the toilet when they need to go to the toilet, let alone drink water, let alone eat food. If I'm in a rehearsal room, I literally can do without all those things. And when I was younger, I took great pride in doing without all those things. I used to work at the Royal Shakespeare Company. You're in an environment where it's such high status, with such famous people wandering, you know, I could easily go without going to the loo drinking, eating. I know there's that book: The Body Keeps the Score. And I just love that title. The idea that the body that has an effect, the body will give up eventually, you know, can't quite keep that up. But I tell you, it can keep it up for decades. And I don't recommend it.

And I suppose it's a kind of it's a both/and. There's going to be times when being able to not give your body exactly what it wants, when it wants it. I mean, an example for me would be, meditation. I'm a meditator, and sitting in meditation when I want to pick my nose, go to the loo, have a coffee, phone a friend, write something down. Do you know having the discipline to say no I'm not going to do those things now. Right now I'm going to sit and stay in my meditation. It's not an either or Aileen, this is a both/and. You know, and in your industry, you absolutely will be, there'll be times when you need to do that. But it's when that then becomes a lifestyle. It's like I'm not in a rehearsal room now. I'm at home. The loo is there. I could just go, but I've got so practiced at neglecting listening to my body.

Yeah. And I suppose in the end, the body gets ill. You know, I've had illnesses in my life where I've had to stop. My God, it just makes you stop. But I think it is this thing of from very young being trained, in fact, to not put ourselves first. I spoke last time, I think, about being from a Catholic background, you know, and I'm from a Goan Catholic background, so there's a kind of Indian Catholic thing going on. And I'm female. So, you know, my attention was trained to look after everybody else first. And first is the point. You know, in the Bible there's that thing, isn't it? A love your neighbour as you love yourself? I absolutely didn't understand that. I still don't understand it. So, I love my neighbour. That's all I hear about that, you know? So, for decades, I would just love my neighbour. And that would feel like the correct way to live one's life. And as you say, the minute you think about doing anything for yourself, we think it's selfish. And I think our parents and teachers and those people when we're young, may very well have said those words out of their mouths. "That's very selfish." "Don't be selfish." literally.

And I mean, you quoting from the Christian tradition there from the from I believe that's the New Testament. Love your neighbour as yourself. And there it is. I mean, that is one of many, many wisdom traditions where it is there in black and white "as yourself". And yet culturally it's turned on its head and is just all about neighbour, neighbour, neighbour, neighbour, neighbour. And yet it isn't possible. We can only love our neighbour as much as we can love ourselves. We might be running around like a banshee doing, doing, doing. But is that love?

Yeah. So last few years, last couple of years, I had this breakthrough where I thought, okay, what if I can't even say it even very easily. It's quite a hard thing to admit to, but I've now got used to saying it. But to say, what if I love myself as I love my neighbour? So that was extremely helpful. And then I said, I'm going to look after my own needs before anybody else's. You know. And if you think about what that sentence is, it's not such a major thing really, to say, I'm going to look after my own needs first before anybody else's. But that felt huge for me. And it was a huge breakthrough and led to a huge amount of positive change in my life.

Lovely, lovely. Yes. I mean, in my experience and this is, you know, both in my own life and watching family members, but also witnessing clients, I think it almost needs to be a practice. You know, there'll be a day when I'll do better than another day. I don't think it's something that we can say. "Yes, done." I've landed that skill now. It's done as well as it's done in this moment, and then in this moment and then in this moment.

I wonder if it's worth us digging into what is self-love? What does self-love look like? I mean, I've referred to the physical body and the need to get enough sleep, rest, the right kind of food, and pauses between commitments. But that's just one part of it, isn't it? I mean, what other ways can we look at our relationship with ourselves do you think?

Yeah. One thing is this. A friend said to me once about, "are you abandoning yourself?" It's such a strong statement. Just to start recognising in different situations because, Clare, you're absolutely right. It's moment to moment living with what we're talking about here.

Have you come across the writer and therapist Pete Walker?

No.

Oh, gosh. Aileen, you need to have a Google. Just Google Pete Walker. And, um, he's got lots and lots of wonderful stuff on his website, but he references self-abandonment as a trauma response. So, when you've experienced trauma and I'm not talking I mean, it might be you've been on a, you know, in a war zone or suffered terrible atrocities. But trauma comes in many, many shapes and sizes. And often we cope with it by self abandoning. It's like I just go somewhere else because when I was experiencing trauma, that was the safest thing to do. And then it becomes a habit. So many of us who you know are like you, who may be listening to this, going, what are they talking about? You know this. It's like, "I don't want to be in my body. I don't want to be in myself. It's it's not a safe place. It's like I've found this place where I've left and I've, you know, I've gone somewhere much nicer and much happier." And Clare can be this little robot walking around doing living. But actually, Clare is not home. Because home, as in, in my system, has not been a safe place because there's been trauma. So, you know, if anyone is listening to us as kind of kind of goes, "oh my gosh, no, that really resonates for me." I mean, in in therapy speak, we call it dissociation. You know, we dissociate from ourselves, but we don't have to use those fancy words. It can just be I went in the kitchen and I did half a dozen things and I wasn't there. You know, we can drive and just do it totally automatically. So that self-abandonment is just become a habit. But we did it originally for a very good reason, is the point I'm wanting to make. It's like I wouldn't want anyone listening to us chat be hard on themselves for doing that. It's a coping mechanism. It's a legitimate coping mechanism. But healing is about recognising that and then looking, how can I come back into relationship with me? How can I come back into a generous, healing, loving relationship with me?

And a great way to do that is with a mirror. A lot of us look in the mirror to, you know, squeeze a spot, pluck an eyebrow, pluck a whisker. Um, you know, make sure our hair's right. Those of us who wear makeup, we might be faffing around doing makeup, but we don't look in the mirror to see ourselves to kind of really look into our eyes and go: "hello, you. How are you today?"

That's so interesting, Clare. When I was at drama school, you made me think of something. When I was at drama school, they did an exercise where the movement teacher, a brilliant movement teacher, told us to look in the mirror for seven minutes and we weren't allowed to move, and people were really traumatised. You know, I remember the class being absolutely a mess. All 30 people kind of going on about it for a week, you know, it was this big thing and everyone. But I hadn't actually felt anything. Because what was interesting to me, I talked about it with my friend who I was at college with, saying, the thing was, I saw this girl. She was quite pretty, actually. She's quite sweet. She had a smiley face. She's got big eyes, you know, she's quite nice hair. But it was if that girl in the mirror had stood up and walked away, I wouldn't have blinked. It felt like a different person. You know? I didn't have any sense that that was me. I mean, that's when I was 18? My God, that was 18. But I remember being and my friend going "Aileen that's quite strange." You know, just starting to realise, of course, drama school and and doing acting, the whole process of acting is so interesting because it is a sort of safe environment, supposedly, to kind of unpick yourself and look at yourself and, you know, people think in acting that you're pretending to be someone else, but actually it's all about understanding. You have to understand who you are and connect to who you are and your desires, your drivers, your fears, your this, your that, the other.

Because otherwise every character you play will be full of you, which it always will be because it's created from you, but you don't want it to be full of your patterns. Back to that word. You know, back to your habitual. We say habitual in acting, your habitual behaviours, your habitual beliefs, your habitual stuff. So, they physically they try and neutralise the body, which again is impossible, but essentially to get to a sense of a blank page to build your the character of Macbeth on or Juliet, you know, you've got to build the character from a slightly more non-habit place, but at the same time, we want it to be Clare's Juliet. So, it's full of unique you and all your stuff. But not your stuff that makes you do generic kind of choices because usually our habits are about people pleasing, especially in theatre. You know, we're trying to do the right thing, the sense of being right, but actually we want the whole of you, you know, the things that you've squashed down, the bits you've absolutely suppressed, the bits that you've decided are bad. They actually want all of you. So that's how you make a character massively three dimensional. And so that's why the journey of drama school is pretty tricky, because you're 18 years old and you don't know what you're doing. You're just trying to work out who you fancy really is the obsession there.

But I think that's so interesting, Aileen. I mean, both both things that you observed in that encounter with that movement teacher. You know, there's your complete disconnect from the woman in the mirror. You weren't engaging with yourself. There was this pretty big eyed woman in front of you. But you didn't. You weren't able to kind of pour into her eyes and kind of see Aileen and see yourself. And when you say that everyone was traumatised, I mean, were they traumatised or are you saying that people were deeply touched and there was a lot of emotion?

Exactly. The classic, I should say they're traumatised. But yes, there's a lot of emotion. And people were really struck by it and felt that we had to face themselves. Yes it was. It was people feeling something real.

And I think you see that. You see you've referenced self-talk earlier, but it's like when you look into the eyes of that human in front of you, that you've disconnected from, that you haven't been in relationship with and, and kind of, you know, say "howdy. How are you? How are you today?" You know, the mind can, as I said, will jump to, you know, that new blemish or that new mark or that new grey hair, or do you know, we'll come in with judgments and criticisms and that isn't going to foster a connection with yourself. You know, that's going to help you disconnect. But if you can be gentle and kind and look into her eyes and ask her how are you? And let her know through your gaze that she matters and you value her and you, you genuinely want to know. It's like you don't want the people pleasing. You don't want the face, the front. You want the woman in there. Quite often it does involve tears or what. I actually don't like calling them tears because it's like I'm not crying, but it's water is running down my face. And it is what, in my tradition, we call it, it is a moment of recognition. It is a moment of seeing me, seeing the authentic me. Not the mask, not the not the persona that I've created to give to the world. It's Clare. "Howdy."

That's so interesting, Clare. Because, you know, now that was drama school. At school, a whole other thing happened when I looked in the mirror, because I was in a school of 1600 white people, and I was the only person who wasn't white in the school. And so all that's through my whole kind of 11 to 18. And I loved school. I absolutely loved it. I did a lot of kind of code switching, this thing of changing my behaviour absolutely with the dominant group, which happened to be everyone was white. But, you know, this happens in society a lot with gay people and people who are not in the dominant group. But, you know, in my work moving forward with the Gonsalves method, I've sort of developed a whole way of working with character on this code switching thing because I realised everybody does it in all situations. You know, we are different with our grandparents than our friends, then our exes, and we absolutely can shift without by totally unconsciously.

So, Aileen, just in case anyone listening isn't familiar with that term, can you just describe what is known as code switching?

Yes. So, code switching is a term that is to describe I think you know that if you're not in the dominant group in a society, you're in a group of people. Um, so I was the only brown person in a group of white people. I will change how I speak, how I move physically. My body will change my eye contact, my proximity, my facial expressions, my body language will change automatically around those people to fit in. And I thought that it was about these kind of non-dominant groups. And then I realised we all do it in different ways. When I'm with my grandparents, I do not swear. It's not that I choose not to. I literally cannot swear. So, what is that about? It's kind of an extraordinary thing that something is censoring at great speed, changing our behaviour and how we're coming across in order to be accepted. You know, and this is I think this is sort of a rough, bad example of what code switching is.

No, I don't think so. I don't think so at all. I think it's out there now. It's in the zeitgeist. It's an expression people hear, but I think it is really useful, and it's interesting that it's coming to the room in this conversation about my relationship with myself, because this will be, as you say, something you have you have come to do automatically. And if you are wanting to look at your relationship with yourself, we need to take off the automatic aspect of that. We need to be able to make it. Oh my gosh, like you're saying, I don't swear in front of my grandparents. I've never thought about that, but I just don't do it. It's like, oh wow. So, there's things, tweaks I make to myself for that, for whatever context I'm in. But actually, when I'm alone, how am I being with me? Am I still code switching or I used to use the word or still do sometimes shapeshifting? Am I still in some kind of pretence even though I'm just in this moment being with me. And can I actually put all that down and let myself have at the beginning it might just be a moment, but can I let myself have a moment when I'm: 'Hello, Clare. How are you today? How are you in this moment?"

Another way is sometimes it's called journaling. You know, a fancy term is narrative therapy. Um, that wonderful writer. I can't remember her name, I feel awful, I can't remember her name, but she wrote the Artist's Way.

Yeah. Julia Cameron.

Julia Cameron. She coined the expression morning pages. You know, when you wake up in the morning, just sit down and fill three pages with words. Uncensored, unconsidered, unstructured. Just write. You know, that's another wonderful way to grow your understanding of who's in here.

I have to say, I did that for years when I was in my 20s, and I will absolutely go back to it at the drop of a hat if I feel like I'm losing connection. You know, if I start a new relationship or a new job or just anything that I do where I'm suddenly unsure of anything, I just go, what's happening? Get it down.

Yeah, yeah.

The other thing in the Artist's Way, interesting Clare, I don't know if you remember, but it was the thing that you were meant to take yourself on an artist date. So, I could do the morning pages because it was kind of disciplined and I could get up and get my pen and write. But the second part that you were meant to do is take yourself on this very frivolous date, you know, and just the concept did my head in. And I really made excuses and found reasons why the time got shortened. It was meant to be just for a minimum of an hour. You know, you might just go to an art gallery. You might just go to a park and take pictures of flowers or go and draw something or go dancing. I mean, there's a trillion things that you can do, but my God, to get myself on my own, to take myself to do something fun, almost impossible.

I think it's really fascinating, but I think you've added the words frivolous and fun. I don't think Julia requires those dates to be either. I think the invitation is to take yourself out and be with yourself in, you know, take yourself seriously enough as someone who's taken on a date.

Exactly.

And the fact that your mind immediately sneaks in there with, that's frivolous. I mean, it tells us so much, doesn't it? And I really I mean, I have to say I resonate deeply with this being hard. I, too, have struggled. I'm making progress. I mean, it's glacial, Aileen, but I am really, really making progress. For many, many years now, I've owned a dog. And that has really, really helped me because the dog has to go out. It looks like I'm doing this for the dog, but actually the dog is doing it for me. If I'm present enough, I'm able to notice the seasons changing, the plants, changing the neighbour's gardens changing. You know, I can I can be in relationship with my environment thanks to those, those daily dates. But I do have support.

I do think walking is another very sort of basic thing that we can all sort of do. If we can walk is to go for a walk, Take ourselves literally just walk around the block. Even again, I used to walk but put my headphones on and play my music as loudly as I could, you know? And actually, one has really got to stay tuned in to the senses if you want to get the maximum benefit of being in the world. It's so fascinating just to sometimes ask, what can I see? What can I hear? You know, what can I smell, what can I taste, what can I feel? But they seem like such big things to do. But actually it is so lovely when you just go for a walk and you feel the breeze on your cheeks or you, you know, you see the sky. As someone once said to me, you know, nature is unrelentingly loving you.

It's interesting, isn't it? Because the woman that goes out with her earphones and plays blasting loud music. You know, I don't think that necessarily has to mean that you're not loving Aileen in that moment. You see, I think it's moment to moment. What is my purpose? And if getting to listen to some really cool tunes and feel your body kind of moving and having that sort of the wonderful kind of vibrations and, and uplift that music can deliver, you know, going on a date with my music and checking out nature, do you know that can be an act of self love. So it's really being with the nuance here. And my favourite expression these days is, you know, the both/andness. It's a constantly changing, moving, varying thing. But having some practices can really help. Sorry I interrupted you.

Yes.

Yeah. Because you'll hear it in the way I'm talking. It's so interesting talking to you because I hear myself be so black and white, you know, so binary. And that cannot help when it's about the self, because we're this entirely unique creature on this earth. No one sees like you, hears like you, smells, feels, touches things you know. No one tastes things like you do. And not only that, you've got. There's 8 billion people, Clare. You know, and not one of them is you. And sometimes we forget that. And this is something when I do my work, I start all my work with this statement and reminding everyone, you know, we all have a unique point of view. It's not just that we're unique. The way we see the world, the way we experience it, but also our then our contribution is unique. You know and that's so wonderful. And really my work is to unlock people's creative contribution. You know, what's their contribution. And because my work is about expressing that uniqueness out of their mouths, you know, with acting or with the coaching of kind of speakers. And when they're doing presentations, we want people to speak at their optimum.

Speaking is the way that what is inside you comes out of you, or dancing or painting or all the other forms, cooking, even. You know, all these things we do. And that's what I think creativity is about, is expressing this person inside. But I think I spent my life trying to only present and express the perfect version of me. So, you know, I think all my work about self has to be how to improve, how to improve, how to improve this, this and this, the regimes, the eating regimes, the exercise all about trying to create this perfect person to then present to the world. Because what we're not seeing. That's why I teach it so much that we're actually utterly perfect because we are unique. We're unique in our flaws. We're unique in our failings. We're not even failings. We're unique in the things that we think are failings. You know, we're unique in all the crunchy bits of what makes us these extraordinary creatures, one of a kind.

I love that the crunchy bits. Another word that I came across recently. Gnarly. The crunchy bits, the gnarly bits. You know that that's such a gorgeous way in, Aileen that I am utterly unique. And the thing is, my interior voice is self-condemning, judgmental, accusatory, I mean, downright mean. You know, I can call myself stupid. I can call myself an idiot. I can call myself a waste of space, a failure. It's like I can't possibly do what you're describing, you know, come forward into the world in my optimum, bringing my creativity and my generous spirits to the world, you know, because I'm hiding in my sort of chrysalis of self-loathing. And I referenced support. I talked about the dog being my support in terms of getting outdoors and being in nature every day. Do you know, we often miss the requirement for most of us, if not all of us, to be supported in this relationship. Even though it's my relationship with me, it's quite likely that I need a pal to help me see that I'm calling myself names that aren't true. I'm not stupid. I'm not an idiot. I'm not a waste of space. But I'm walking through my day believing this nonsense.

Yeah. I mean, that is the other great technique for all of us is to reach out to somebody and talk to them. Because as soon as you talk to a friend and ask anything, you get this reflection back that says, that's not true. I don't think that's right. I don't see you as that. What about this, this, this and this? And what about that thing you did last week? You know, it's really important.

When I was emerging from this space of being not connected to myself. I talk about it as a trance. Um, I follow this woman called Tara Brach, and she's a speaker and has loads of books and podcasts and all sorts of things. The first talk I heard of her, someone sent it to me, a friend. They said, listen to this. And she talked about trance. And you know, you said that we can be disassociated for a day, a month. I feel I was disassociated for decades. You know, and then you get into relationships where when I came out of my marriage, I was like, wow, I think I was in a trance. I was busy working. I was busy doing this and that. I was at the top of my game. It feels like when you start to make that change to come to yourself and it's almost like a chrysalis, isn't it? It's so ugly and dark and weird and broken because you're not sure what is real and what is the trance, you know? So, then you need those friends. Oh my gosh, you need journaling. You need looking in the mirror, but you need people to reflect back to you something that is true. And just say, just to ask questions or just to check in with because it feels so right to run around after somebody else and so wrong to look after myself.

It's like, I feel like we've come full circle. This what you're saying about the trance? I mean, I had a teacher, his name was Brad Brown. He would refer to being asleep, which I think it sounds like the same as Tara Brach. But what I think you've really touched on, that's so important, Aileen, is my relationship with me. It's not something that anyone else will be able to tell me about. And I think if you're enjoying high success, it's going to be even more difficult for you to kind of do this work that we're talking about, of checking in with myself, because we've got all this outer endorsement that I'm doing great. But actually, what you're referencing is that inside I might be feeling tiny and lost and alone and fearful and that's crazy making. And how do I cope with that? And if, you know, if you're listening to us and you think, oh my gosh, that's me, you know, I'm on this massive six figure salary and I feel like an imposter. I feel like a failure. I feel like it's only a matter of time until everyone realises that I'm just a, you know, a useless nobody.

Then, you know, don't lose heart. And if you're the other side, if you've always sort of underperformed and you know you've not actually managed to shine bright in the world and you're a bit of a nobody, you might actually have done a lot of this work. And actually, another word in psychobabble speak, we talk about this as the ego. Do you know, through our teens and early adulthood, you know, we're in this very complicated process of constructing our ego. I mean, actually it starts younger. It starts with about 2 or 3 when we realise that we're not one with our mothers, that actually we're separate. And that is so terrifying that we have to construct this artificial thing to make the pain of separation bearable. But then it becomes who we think we are. But it's not that that unique person that you were speaking about has been lost under this layer and layer and layer of egoic construct that if the world likes it, is really hard to unpick, but so worth it, so worth it. Because underneath is treasure. Because you are, you are treasure.

We can help each other. I think by in the basic question to our friends and loved ones. You know, we often say, how are you doing? How are you doing? We don't often say, how are you feeling? And it's an interesting distinction. And this was another breakthrough in this whole self stuff. When I asked, how are you feeling? I decided that the answer should be the sensations in the body. So normally I'd answer that from my head and say, I'm sad, I'm happy, I'm angry. I'm this or that, or I'm annoyed, or that person's worrying me, or there'd be some story in mental story. But actually, I'd never, ever, and only was really when I started doing meditation, which tunes you into sort of your sensations of the body. So, I'm thinking, as I'm talking to you, I'm noticing that my fingers are tingling, my back's a bit sore, my left leg is cold, you know, actual sensations in the body. It was something I'd never, ever thought about in a million years. But now, when things are going on and my friends and I are upset or something's happened. The first question we ask each other is where are you feeling it in the body?

Lovely.

And it's been a breakthrough. Because people answer by saying, my throat is tight. You know, my chest is beating really hard. It feels like I've got, you know, adrenaline coming through my arms. And what's so fascinating about that is you kind of clock those different sensations. And as you're clocking them, they're kind of changing.

Aileen, I, I think you've, you've stumbled upon something really, really big. And I want to suggest that we pin this to come back to. You've talked about meditation. You've talked about sensations, you've talked about physical feelings. You've also referenced emotional feelings like sad and happy and anxious, and you've also referenced thoughts. And I think we will revisit because I think this is a subject in its own right. But yes, I think it's a great place to end today because it allows us to realise that my relationship with myself is multi-layered, highly complex, will never get boring if you're up for embarking on it and diving into it. You know, when we're in our frustration with others, you know, whether it's our partners, whether it's our children, whether it's, uh, you've really let me down. Oh, I'm really it's kind of like, oh, I'll just give that a break because we have so much agency. There's the good news. We might not know ourselves terribly well, but this is a relationship where I can really make a difference. I have all the impact. Those other people that are winding me up or irritating me or making me cross. I have very little agency. They will do what they do and they will be how they'll be. But this one and I'm pointing at me. This one I can really make a difference.

Yeah, that's a great.

It's a relationship well worth the investment. So, I'm aware. Aileen. I do think we need to wrap up because we've been nattering for ages. Anyway. We've referenced a few writers and people, and there are other people we haven't actually mentioned, but I think a really good resources. So, we'll put all these links and wise, wise people that have been thinking about this a lot on the website, the sexandrelationshipspodcast.com. Yeah, and we'll be back soon with more. So, I'm going to say goodbye. Aileen. Do you want to say anything before you say goodbye?

No, just thank you, Clare, because it's really refreshing to think about these things, because it reminds us all the time that it's ever changing that you can dip into and then transform and then forget about again. Then remember again. And so, as you say, the investment really is worth it. And it's lovely to talk to you today and I can't wait till the next one.

Yay!

Bye bye.