Artwork for podcast The Pocket Dojō
Ep 01 : The Challenges Women Leaders Who Lead Face In The Workplace
Episode 113th November 2023 • The Pocket Dojō • Paul Crick
00:00:00 00:34:42

Share Episode

Shownotes

In this episode we share some of the research - our own and others - about the challenges women who lead face in the workplace.

What we think you may find interesting is the differences in the language used in the conversations from our own research and the language that social media platforms and business publications use.

We also share more about Broughton Sanctuary, our own backgrounds and examples of the work we have done with women who lead.

We also begin to share more about the work were planning to do there in April 2024.

Find more our about Asha's work here and find out more about Paul's work here.

Transcripts

Paul Crick:

Hello, everyone. I'm Paul Crick from the Elevate

Paul Crick:

partnership. And I'm one of the CO hosts for the pocket Dojo

Paul Crick:

podcast.

Asha Singh:

And I'm actually seeing from learning through

Asha Singh:

doing, I'm the other co host.

Paul Crick:

Welcome to the pocket dojo, where we'll be

Paul Crick:

talking with organisational leaders about how to turn the

Paul Crick:

what of leadership into the how we actually need to do it in

Paul Crick:

practice to be more effective today. In this episode, we're

Paul Crick:

talking about the challenges that women commonly face as

Paul Crick:

leaders, and how we've helped our clients to deal with them to

Paul Crick:

leverage on them. In today's episode, we're talking about the

Paul Crick:

challenges that women commonly face as leaders, and how we've

Paul Crick:

helped our clients to deal with them.

Asha Singh:

I recently came across this really interesting,

Asha Singh:

relevant research. How did she get there, published in October

Asha Singh:

2022. By the bridge partnership, an international organisation

Asha Singh:

and leadership development consultancy, and we are left

Asha Singh:

field a design thinking studio. The purpose of the research was

Asha Singh:

to try to understand better how women can get to the top of

Asha Singh:

organisations with some really common barriers that they face.

Asha Singh:

The lived reality of women and men at work is really different.

Asha Singh:

It can be from such simple things as noticing the

Asha Singh:

temperature of a room, which has been set to a male norm to being

Asha Singh:

spoken over, which was something I personally couldn't really

Asha Singh:

identify with. When asked by the researchers, 36% of women

Asha Singh:

expressed how it was much more difficult for them to be

Asha Singh:

listened to and taken seriously, compared to 15% of their male

Asha Singh:

colleagues. To perhaps the most important of all is rising up

Asha Singh:

the ladder in an organisation if that's what women want to do.

Asha Singh:

Despite consistently higher performance, their possibilities

Asha Singh:

are often much more limited.

Paul Crick:

There's a real noticeable gap that isn't

Paul Crick:

getting any smaller. Globally, women continue to take on 75% of

Paul Crick:

the unpaid workload, acting as the caregiver for children and

Paul Crick:

elderly relatives. During the pandemic of the past three

Paul Crick:

years, women were increasingly more burned out than men. One in

Paul Crick:

four women have considered downshifting their career. It's

Paul Crick:

clear that the inherent biases exists in organisations and

Paul Crick:

society at large, and divisions are deeply entrenched. Even

Asha Singh:

though organisations are aware of the gap, they don't

Asha Singh:

seem to be any nearer to closing it. Many of the solutions that

Asha Singh:

have been tried to date and there's lots of research around

Asha Singh:

on these have been focused for the most part on fixing women,

Asha Singh:

asking them to be more demanding or assertive to lead in, in

Asha Singh:

short, to be more like men. Rather than trying to address an

Asha Singh:

unhealthy organisation support, I'd love to understand how this

Asha Singh:

research corresponds to what you found in your investigations in

Asha Singh:

early 2022.

Paul Crick:

So in thinking about this challenge, and this whole

Paul Crick:

set of challenges, one of the mistakes that's often made is to

Paul Crick:

go out and to design something that tries to make things

Paul Crick:

better, and we present it and we go, tada, isn't that better? And

Paul Crick:

everyone goes, No, it's not what we wanted. So we took the

Paul Crick:

important first step, which was really to go out and to speak

Paul Crick:

with a group of women leaders. And in the end, we ended up

Paul Crick:

speaking to 40 Women in various sectors. So we talked public

Paul Crick:

sector, we talk the nonprofit sector, and we also talk to

Paul Crick:

private sector. We also had some views from the military as well.

Paul Crick:

So we got a broad spectrum of views and experiences that told

Paul Crick:

us verbatim what some of the journeys were into leadership

Paul Crick:

and what some of those challenges were. And what we did

Paul Crick:

was we distilled those into what you see here, which are the post

Paul Crick:

it notes, so I have to fight I have to sacrifice was a common

Paul Crick:

theme. I'm tired of having to deal with stuff that men don't

Paul Crick:

want to. There was often a story that says you know, well, if

Paul Crick:

it's something emotional can someone else deal with that

Paul Crick:

because it's something that traditionally and I know these

Paul Crick:

are sweeping generalisations, but it came out of the dialogue

Paul Crick:

That said, you're dealing with more softer stuff. emotional

Paul Crick:

stuff is something that men generally seem to find more

Paul Crick:

difficult, and fed up with not being seen and heard and

Paul Crick:

supported and used as a secret weapon. I thought that was an

Paul Crick:

interesting comment. Not being able to take the rightful place

Paul Crick:

at the table, in terms of being able to speak the truth. So on

Paul Crick:

the one hand, there's this encouragement to lean in, and to

Paul Crick:

be more assertive, but when actually women are, then they're

Paul Crick:

seen as being too much or too big for their boots, or whatever

Paul Crick:

that appropriate expression is. A common theme was, there was

Paul Crick:

this constant sense of being exhausted, but always picking

Paul Crick:

themselves up. So this over this, this overwhelm that women

Paul Crick:

were experiencing, not just in the workplace, but also outside

Paul Crick:

the workplace, cause tremendous difficulty, then we had adverse

Paul Crick:

experiences, whether they were outside of work, but very often

Paul Crick:

inside of work, that we're catching up with them, you know,

Paul Crick:

they were women would be cautious working, walking into

Paul Crick:

certain situations, and would hold back, and this could drag

Paul Crick:

they felt on their performance. There was also a sense of when

Paul Crick:

women had worked hard and become successful, there was almost a

Paul Crick:

stepping back and saying, Okay, I've done this, this is great,

Paul Crick:

but what now I've been successful. And you know what,

Paul Crick:

there's something missing. And I don't know quite what that is

Paul Crick:

yet. There was also a lot of talk about wanting their career

Paul Crick:

on their own terms rather than someone else's terms. The last

Paul Crick:

interesting area was where work situations seemed to cause all

Paul Crick:

kinds of difficulties in terms of triggering responsive

Paul Crick:

behaviour or reactive behaviour, that in some ways was an overuse

Paul Crick:

strength. And people really felt that actually, it wasn't the way

Paul Crick:

that they wanted to respond or to be in the workplace.

Asha Singh:

pool that sounds like a pretty close confirmation

Asha Singh:

of what the bridge partnership and leftfield found in their

Asha Singh:

investigations. During our recent visit to Broughton

Asha Singh:

sanctuary pool, and I started a conversation about how we came

Asha Singh:

to support women leaders in organisations to be able to lead

Asha Singh:

on their own terms. This is part of what we'll be looking at in

Asha Singh:

the renewal retreat at Broughton next spring.

Paul Crick:

So there's an important book by Giles Hutchins

Paul Crick:

and Laura storm called regenerative leadership. And in

Paul Crick:

that they talk about the four disconnections that we seem to

Paul Crick:

be seeing all over the world right now. The first is the

Paul Crick:

disconnections from human between humans and nature. The

Paul Crick:

second is the apparent disconnection between masculine

Paul Crick:

energy and feminine energy. The third one is the disconnection

Paul Crick:

between mind, body and spirit. And the final one was between

Paul Crick:

logic and emotion. And the reason we're putting this

Paul Crick:

retreat together, is because we are hoping to do some work with

Paul Crick:

some senior women, to help them through the process of doing

Paul Crick:

their own reconnections to those things about right. I've

Asha Singh:

got to say, I think, you know, also just a personal

Asha Singh:

level, when we met at a leadership within in Germany

Asha Singh:

just over a year ago, she feels like so much longer. Yes, it was

Asha Singh:

last summer. You know, though, I think there was a recognition

Asha Singh:

that we you both you and I are holding combinations of those

Asha Singh:

things, and that we were really curious to bring those together,

Asha Singh:

and see how that could help to create an amazing experience for

Asha Singh:

women who want to explore these disconnections. Exactly.

Paul Crick:

And I get a sense from the research that we've

Paul Crick:

both done, that these are themes that keep coming up, over and

Paul Crick:

over again, not necessarily in that precise language, but that,

Paul Crick:

that, you know, we've reached an inflection point, and you

Paul Crick:

recognise that things need to be different. How do we do that? So

Paul Crick:

the, the, why of the retreats is to is to give women that

Paul Crick:

opportunity for exploration. Yeah,

Asha Singh:

and also just, you know, another thing that's

Asha Singh:

coming to me as we're talking is that, you know, there's a lot of

Asha Singh:

of energy and action and let's cancel everything, then, you

Asha Singh:

know, we think is, it's not working or we make these you

Asha Singh:

know, strong judgments about whether something is good or not

Asha Singh:

or whatever. And rather than sort of pour fuel on the flames

Asha Singh:

of that, wiping everything out and starting all over again.

Asha Singh:

It's really knew about exploration and healing. And

Asha Singh:

there's so many different, you know, aspects that could be

Asha Singh:

explored. So that it's a process of integration, as opposed to

Asha Singh:

let's just scratch everything and start all over again in ways

Asha Singh:

that we should do or shouldn't do and what I think we both

Asha Singh:

really want you to get away from that kind of approach to to

Asha Singh:

dealing with some of the challenge.

Paul Crick:

I agree. I think it's I think it's too easy to

Paul Crick:

throw away the baby out with the bathwater as the expression

Paul Crick:

goes. And I think you have to find where you are now, to be

Paul Crick:

able to say, right, this is where we are. This is a

Paul Crick:

recognition of how I truly feel, you know, when I take time to

Paul Crick:

explore that. And then to go through a thought process of it

Paul Crick:

as a collective and individually to think about. Okay, so where

Paul Crick:

do I want to go now and what options do I have? When I take

Paul Crick:

off? Yeah, when I take the time to slow down.

Asha Singh:

So what brought you to Broughton? i This is the

Asha Singh:

first time I've come here. Thanks, chi. Chi you inviting us

Asha Singh:

to come? Yeah, I'm loving it. It's an amazing place. I'd love

Asha Singh:

to talk a little bit more about a minute as well. But just

Asha Singh:

curious what what brought you here in the first place? Why the

Asha Singh:

connection was brought.

Paul Crick:

It was a it was a connection my wife had made with

Paul Crick:

Liz Dorsalis doors and forest guides. She does all the said,

Paul Crick:

this is going to work with us on day one. And it was a Do you

Paul Crick:

fancy doing this? It was kind of like yeah, this kind of looks

Paul Crick:

cool. And we were looking for a weekend break. And we liked the

Paul Crick:

countryside. So we took a look. And we stayed. We stayed over

Paul Crick:

and Keithley Airbnb and then we came across and we were just

Paul Crick:

bowled over by the sights, the sounds, the senses, that the all

Paul Crick:

the senses were engaged in, in a way that it's difficult to

Paul Crick:

explain, unless you get here because I know you and I've had

Paul Crick:

the conversation. I know you've got to come you've got to come.

Paul Crick:

And it's it's hard. But I think you'll agree once you get here

Paul Crick:

it kind of it's the sort of place that that impacts you in

Paul Crick:

ways that you don't expect. And it has a very calming influence.

Paul Crick:

There's a lot of nature to take in. The food is the food's

Paul Crick:

exquisite, I mean, really, really tasty. And the facilities

Paul Crick:

are just perfect. The spaces are beautifully designed there, that

Paul Crick:

we're not trying to do something in a Holiday Inn or Crowne Plaza

Paul Crick:

around Heathrow somewhere. We're actually taking time and you

Paul Crick:

know, the tempest family who curate and look after a manage

Paul Crick:

and develop the site have put poured so much into the design

Paul Crick:

and making it work specifically for all kinds of different

Paul Crick:

retreats. So it just it just fit so that's how I got here.

Asha Singh:

Yeah, and it's been amazing for me just we haven't

Asha Singh:

been here even 24 hours. I'm on the back of about flew and I had

Asha Singh:

serious doubts about whether I was even gonna make on the plane

Asha Singh:

and I thought I you know, great to see you guys and I brought

Asha Singh:

in, you know, the templates, family and everybody here who

Asha Singh:

made it real effort to working muscle I didn't want to, you

Asha Singh:

know, let them down and I have to say even on the train up from

Asha Singh:

London from Leeds. So I just get off it, skipped it and go back.

Asha Singh:

And then of course I'm not going to do that and I'm so glad that

Asha Singh:

I'm here. And I mean apart from the beauty and the care and the

Asha Singh:

love that is so apparent in everything that we've

Asha Singh:

experienced just in these you know less than a day really. I'm

Asha Singh:

really struck by all these different spaces so it's October

Asha Singh:

in Yorkshire the weather is what it is and yeah, I've really

Asha Singh:

enjoyed actually even being out when you and I went down to the

Asha Singh:

river yesterday, we did a very you know full kind of about to

Asha Singh:

burst its banks type River in the driving rain and blustering

Asha Singh:

is a gentle adjective to describe the wind and we went up

Asha Singh:

to those looking at here is the edges of the moor and Cameron,

Asha Singh:

the general manager here took to your wife and myself out in a

Asha Singh:

you know, serious bit of land rover, well, whatever pick up

Asha Singh:

truck through a forge that was was nearly as swelling as the

Asha Singh:

river and up to one of the houses up there which was you

Asha Singh:

know, handling a gale and it just was so evocative and

Asha Singh:

powerful. And the different spaces that we've walked around

Asha Singh:

here, I'm astonished. I've done my own, you know, work in

Asha Singh:

retreat. I've lived in a Buddhist community in the heart

Asha Singh:

of Scotland. I've Been to different things around the

Asha Singh:

world. And I'm really struck by what, what has been created

Asha Singh:

here. So these really different spaces, some are very elegant,

Asha Singh:

some are more kind of functional. But there's a really

Asha Singh:

strong, energetic. I mean, I feel amazing for somebody who's

Asha Singh:

just getting over the flu. I love the vegan food, I love the

Asha Singh:

different energy of these spaces, like you say, you know,

Asha Singh:

can cater for so many different things in ways that really

Asha Singh:

retreat in particular so much about the place.

Paul Crick:

It is, and it aligns with the work they're doing here

Paul Crick:

in terms of regeneration, renewal, rediscovery,

Paul Crick:

reconnection, all those themes are what we're bringing to the

Paul Crick:

retreat. For senior women here successful strong women who've

Paul Crick:

got to a, an inflection point in their thinking, or maybe their

Paul Crick:

career to provide a relevant experience a beautiful

Paul Crick:

experience and a powerful experience, that when they go

Paul Crick:

away from it, they, they're going to be changed in some

Paul Crick:

small way to move on to whatever is right for them. So I think

Paul Crick:

this is, this is a super place to do it.

Asha Singh:

It really feels like renewal runs through the apps, I

Asha Singh:

feel renewed, gotcha. I'm a longtime coach facilitator, I

Asha Singh:

work mainly today with executive teams, I have done a lot of work

Asha Singh:

with senior women leaders, looking to find their own voice

Asha Singh:

and their own way of leading in quite hierarchical various

Asha Singh:

geopolitical, often conflict ridden, you know, mature

Asha Singh:

organisation organisational systems, which they are expected

Asha Singh:

to transform. And exploring with them, how can they do that, in

Asha Singh:

ways that allow them to be them be themselves, you know, to be

Asha Singh:

who they are. They're often, you know, really smart, powerful,

Asha Singh:

competitive, high achieving, you know, amazing women that do

Asha Singh:

amazing things in their spare time that, you know, I'm like,

Asha Singh:

astounded by I don't I, that's not who I am. But I have found

Asha Singh:

that what I can bring, as a woman moving through those

Asha Singh:

systems, as somebody who comes in and out and, you know, knows

Asha Singh:

them well, systems, knows the dynamics knows the challenges,

Asha Singh:

knows the stories, narratives that get told, can be really

Asha Singh:

effective, and helping them to find their own way through. So

Asha Singh:

that's what is bringing me into, into doing the work. And in

Asha Singh:

coming together with Paul, we met at a leadership circle

Asha Singh:

events. That's one of the systems of leadership that we've

Asha Singh:

both been interested in along the way. And an event not much

Asha Singh:

more than a year ago. And I'll let Paul, you know, talk about

Asha Singh:

your own work in that but in, you know, starting to experiment

Asha Singh:

with Paul about sort of the the work that he will also bring, I

Asha Singh:

think into the retreat, there was a really lovely connection

Asha Singh:

of bringing that in talks mentioned about the disconnect

Asha Singh:

between masculine and feminine and being in nature. And I think

Asha Singh:

those were, for me at least the the particular sort of things

Asha Singh:

that got me really curious about how could we bring these, you

Asha Singh:

know, who we are, together into something to create the kind of

Asha Singh:

experience we want to offer to the women that will take part?

Asha Singh:

Yeah, absolutely.

Paul Crick:

That my work has been. So I've been in coats for

Paul Crick:

13 years. And as part of becoming a coach, you end up

Paul Crick:

doing your own work.

Asha Singh:

Tangential part?

Paul Crick:

Yeah, absolutely fundamental. And what's been

Paul Crick:

interesting is when you then go out into the world and say, Hey,

Paul Crick:

I'm a coach, who can I serve? My clients have been senior women,

Paul Crick:

not because I've necessarily gone out and said, Hey, senior

Paul Crick:

women come and work with me, but simply somehow, that's the way

Paul Crick:

it's ended up. And they're in large corporate size, a

Paul Crick:

management consultant working all over the world for 20 plus

Paul Crick:

years. And so all kinds of things. You know, I worked with

Paul Crick:

40 Plus global companies in different states of change and

Paul Crick:

progress. And looking at systems in there. What worked, what

Paul Crick:

didn't, I got involved in training, what might be called

Paul Crick:

soft skills. And the more you delve into that, the more you

Paul Crick:

get a sense of dissatisfaction. So I was lucky to do a TED talk

Paul Crick:

in 2000. 19. And there's this astonishing figure in there,

Paul Crick:

that still boggles my mind in most people's minds, because

Paul Crick:

it's just so big, which is they estimated we spent $366 billion

Paul Crick:

globally on training leaders around the world in various

Paul Crick:

forms. There was a part of me that said, Well, if that's the

Paul Crick:

case, why is it not working? I couldn't do that. Certainly, I

Paul Crick:

couldn't figure out what that was. And so I wanted to find new

Paul Crick:

ways of moving away from let's all fly to a hotel in

Paul Crick:

Copenhagen. Let's do flip charts, let's do like old plays,

Paul Crick:

let's do models, which are all very valid. But if they're not

Paul Crick:

working, we need to do something, not necessarily throw

Paul Crick:

the baby out with the bathwater, but we need to try other things.

Paul Crick:

And my experience is you have to teach the whole person, so

Paul Crick:

therefore, you have to bring the body into play. That doesn't

Paul Crick:

happen in hotel conference rooms too often, if at all. And I

Paul Crick:

think that's essential. I think also, we need to bring people

Paul Crick:

outside. So you know, this, this flying into an airport, going to

Paul Crick:

the hotel, spending three days in a conference room, getting in

Paul Crick:

a taxi, going back to the hotel, you miss out on a whole bunch of

Paul Crick:

things that could open up people to new ideas, new ways of being

Paul Crick:

new ways of connecting, that those curriculums don't do. And

Paul Crick:

so when I came to gusting and we met, I was bringing. So if you

Paul Crick:

read my material on LinkedIn, you'll find out that I do

Paul Crick:

martial arts and my black belt in Aikido. And I wanted to find

Paul Crick:

a way, well, it's not so much that it was it's how do you take

Paul Crick:

those principles, and that we learn on the mat and learn them

Paul Crick:

off the mat, because they are so relevant. And so when I was in

Paul Crick:

gassing, and I devised a class, and fortunately, went really

Paul Crick:

well, that's where we met. And what I loved about working with

Paul Crick:

you was there is a creative tension here. Between us, that

Paul Crick:

is this masculine feminine energy in kind of the way it's

Paul Crick:

supposed to work. So we're not always sweetness and light. We

Paul Crick:

sometimes have the difficult conversation, but we get through

Paul Crick:

it. But we respect how each of us comes to the table and what

Paul Crick:

we bring, and we're still learning what that is. And we

Paul Crick:

want people to share in that we want our participants to do

Paul Crick:

that. Because what we learned from the research we did was, it

Paul Crick:

isn't about fixing women, they don't need fixing, they find

Paul Crick:

that if they're successful, they're strong. What they need

Paul Crick:

to do is reconnect and rediscover and find their voice

Paul Crick:

again, not because they never had one they did. But to go back

Paul Crick:

into that and go, Oh, I've got time I've got space I've got

Paul Crick:

other people to commune with. And yeah, we've got masculine

Paul Crick:

energy and feminine energy in the room facilitating this and

Paul Crick:

in the outdoors. Hopefully, that will become a catalyst. And I'm

Paul Crick:

sure that will spark conversations around an agenda

Paul Crick:

that takes people through a whole cognitive experience and

Paul Crick:

also an embodied experience, where there's a great deal of

Paul Crick:

freedom to explore that without judgement. And in a way that is

Paul Crick:

safe for each party. To be

Asha Singh:

realistic, you know. So coming back to the what you

Asha Singh:

were talking mentioning earlier pool about, you know, the amount

Asha Singh:

of money that's spent on leadership development. And

Asha Singh:

leadership is so contextual, with the challenges that we

Asha Singh:

face, you know, even within a very structured environment,

Asha Singh:

etc. For people to be able to find small but powerful ways to

Asha Singh:

connect with each other, to use the tech that is available in

Asha Singh:

ways it's effective, you know, to find, to use some sort of

Asha Singh:

technical language from moment affordance, and agency are

Asha Singh:

fundamental in being able to be effective. I think, you know,

Asha Singh:

that's what we really want people to be able to explore

Asha Singh:

here. And in such a way that they can go back into daily life

Asha Singh:

and for it to be really useful.

Paul Crick:

Yeah, again, in the echo chamber, that is LinkedIn,

Paul Crick:

we keep seeing the same messages over and over again, and they're

Paul Crick:

actually not. They're useful reminders in some ways, but the

Paul Crick:

reminders of what the old is, and the whole world, you know,

Paul Crick:

as we come out of out of the pandemic and into this

Paul Crick:

environment that is perhaps more chaotic than it's ever been more

Paul Crick:

uncertain than it's ever been. Then we need we need something

Paul Crick:

new to emerge. But that comes from individuals. It doesn't

Paul Crick:

come from people saying do it like us. It doesn't come from

Paul Crick:

people saying here's a change initiative that's going to

Paul Crick:

change, change your organisation because the changes we were

Paul Crick:

saying earlier when we're walking back For the woods, we

Paul Crick:

were saying how to change changes and individual decision.

Paul Crick:

And it's a dance, it's not a light switch. So our hope is

Paul Crick:

that in designing this and the way that we we bring and hold

Paul Crick:

this space, for people to use that sort of phrase gives people

Paul Crick:

an opportunity and some time to really explore what needs to be

Paul Crick:

explored for them, you know, I still can't really get my head

Paul Crick:

around that number is so huge, particularly when you look at

Paul Crick:

all the major challenges we have around the world now, and how

Paul Crick:

our leadership really doesn't seem to be doing what it needs

Paul Crick:

to

Asha Singh:

know. It's insane, isn't it? So Paul, that's a

Asha Singh:

really nice introduction to some of the work that you've been

Asha Singh:

doing to help women leaders become more effective and be

Asha Singh:

true to themselves? What did you actually do in practice to help

Asha Singh:

them and what changed for them as a result?

Paul Crick:

Well, as you'll know, yourself from your own

Paul Crick:

work, you know, no two clients are the same. The presenting

Paul Crick:

problem, or the the issue that comes into the coaching room is

Paul Crick:

never really the coaching issue. There's always something

Paul Crick:

underneath that. And I worked with someone who was about to

Paul Crick:

step into a general manager role, the general manager at

Paul Crick:

country level for a global technology organisation. And

Paul Crick:

this person was just full of self doubt, and couldn't

Paul Crick:

understand why her her peers and her bosses were saying, here's

Paul Crick:

all these great opportunities. And we want you to do this. And

Paul Crick:

we think you'd be good at this, which one would you like to

Paul Crick:

choose? And she actually came in saying, I've got this major

Paul Crick:

presentation to do. And I'm really, really robotic, or I

Paul Crick:

really get a sense of I'm robotic, and I don't feel

Paul Crick:

comfortable in my own skin. I mean, it's a common thing, that

Paul Crick:

we've had fun recording this. So it's a common thing to sort of

Paul Crick:

freeze or be be a little bit static. And the work I did with

Paul Crick:

her really looked at things that have happened in the past

Paul Crick:

certain what I would call sensitising events or important

Paul Crick:

events that had an impact on her Neurobiology. And we went back

Paul Crick:

to look at well, what was it that you needed to learn when

Paul Crick:

you experienced that, and there's a whole range of

Paul Crick:

techniques that that can be used, but I picked one, where I

Paul Crick:

took her through, essentially a thought experiment, where we

Paul Crick:

went into a theatre, and we invited the person that caused

Paul Crick:

the issue to come on stage. They had a conversation about what

Paul Crick:

went on, or what came through that was the lesson that needed

Paul Crick:

to be learned, which was actually she was very capable.

Paul Crick:

It wasn't about her it was about the other person. And therefore

Paul Crick:

that kind of balance things up. So when we came out of the

Paul Crick:

thought experiment and said, So how do you feel now, it was a

Paul Crick:

case of, well, I feel a lot lighter. Then what we did was we

Paul Crick:

actually went to a theatre, one of the West End theatres in

Paul Crick:

London. And we were lucky enough to get access to be able to put

Paul Crick:

it right on stage in front of an audience. And the idea there was

Paul Crick:

simply to give her a way of having a visual and an auditory

Paul Crick:

and an a felt sense anchor that was really positive. So we just,

Paul Crick:

we just got people to clap while she was on stage. She didn't

Paul Crick:

have to say anything. And then we just helped her stand taller

Paul Crick:

in her shoes. It wasn't that she was slouching, it was really

Paul Crick:

that she needed to feel she was standing taller. She was she was

Paul Crick:

a tall, young woman. And so that's the kind of work we do.

Paul Crick:

Or certainly I do when I'm helping people to stand in their

Paul Crick:

own voice. So it's not about fixing them. It's really tapping

Paul Crick:

into some of the stories and narratives that these women are

Paul Crick:

telling themselves that simply aren't true. We just need to

Paul Crick:

find a way of helping them to convince themselves. They're not

Paul Crick:

true. And what that does is that produces a whole set of

Paul Crick:

different creative options and opportunities that they can

Paul Crick:

pursue. So that's one example. How are you Asha?

Asha Singh:

What a fantastic story. Cool. So last year, I was

Asha Singh:

working with a senior leader in a global organisation who work

Asha Singh:

in this area of aerospace. Aerospace is obviously a really

Asha Singh:

geopolitical sector. So it's highly regulated. It's quite

Asha Singh:

hierarchical, and it's pretty old school in many ways. It's

Asha Singh:

also obviously really male dominated, although this

Asha Singh:

particular client organisation have done a lot of work to

Asha Singh:

improve diversity and bring women in, not least because stem

Asha Singh:

and women in STEM rather, is obviously you know, a really big

Asha Singh:

issue for for lots of organisations. So, this leader,

Asha Singh:

I'll call her Sarah, that's obviously not her name, but I'll

Asha Singh:

call her Sarah for now. She was new fairly new into role. She

Asha Singh:

was also in a new technical errors should come from a very

Asha Singh:

different one. So she felt quite challenged by the fact that she

Asha Singh:

was being asked to manage to lead a group of highly

Asha Singh:

experienced experts, all of whom except for one, if I remember

Asha Singh:

rightly, were were men. They were quite good at because I

Asha Singh:

hadn't been led for a while she was she came in after a, you

Asha Singh:

know, a gap of leadership. And they were quite good at avoiding

Asha Singh:

all the things that they didn't want to deal with, and getting

Asha Singh:

on with, you know, the technical areas that that were interesting

Asha Singh:

for them. So given her competitive, ambitious, you

Asha Singh:

know, intelligent nature, Sara felt really under pressure,

Asha Singh:

because she was being asked to not only, you know, get great

Asha Singh:

results out of this, this group of men who hadn't been led for

Asha Singh:

quite a long time, but also to do it in an area where they

Asha Singh:

clearly had a lot more knowledge operationally, technically, that

Asha Singh:

she did, and it was real challenge for her. So I do a lot

Asha Singh:

more collective work these days, I don't do that much work with

Asha Singh:

individuals, I think both things are really important, we need to

Asha Singh:

do our own, you know, development and then look at how

Asha Singh:

we interact with others, particularly we work in larger

Asha Singh:

organisations, because it's, it's all in the system, if you

Asha Singh:

like. So I brought them into a two day workshop, actually in

Asha Singh:

two different locations, just to kind of add that into the mix.

Asha Singh:

And we focused on we did quite a lot of preparation first to to

Asha Singh:

get some useful information, etc. But like you did with your

Asha Singh:

research, for the retreat, and we focus really on two areas. So

Asha Singh:

the inner nature, let's say, so how our own beliefs, values,

Asha Singh:

behaviours, etc, create, you know, some of the dynamics that

Asha Singh:

we obviously experience, you know, both immediately and round

Asha Singh:

teams or in a wider organisation, and then at the

Asha Singh:

challenges themselves, that operationally whatever this team

Asha Singh:

needed to look at, it was a really powerful, you know,

Asha Singh:

playful, also a couple of days in which the importance of a

Asha Singh:

facilitated dialogue really helped them to look at things

Asha Singh:

that they don't normally, you know, obviously consider on a

Asha Singh:

daily basis, because they're too caught up in the, in the, you

Asha Singh:

know, business of operational life when you're under pressure,

Asha Singh:

etc. And I think Sarah, in particular, found a couple of

Asha Singh:

things really surprising. So first of all, the fact that I

Asha Singh:

modelled or showed them, you know, demonstrated how to, to

Asha Singh:

have dialogue, rather than to come up with a plan of action to

Asha Singh:

begin with, it really helped her to to experience how it was

Asha Singh:

possible to enable her team rather than drive them to

Asha Singh:

results. It meant for the team that they could have, you know,

Asha Singh:

really open honest discussion and conversation about things

Asha Singh:

that, firstly, they don't really talk about all the time, and

Asha Singh:

that helped them to regroup. And also to bring forth you know,

Asha Singh:

all the wisdom and knowledge and experience that they had for

Asha Singh:

addressing the operational challenges, which, at the end of

Asha Singh:

the day, that was what they need to do. And so they both had this

Asha Singh:

opportunity to, to think about the deeper stuff. And then

Asha Singh:

having done that to address, you know, what it is that they

Asha Singh:

needed to do together. And the other thing that I think really

Asha Singh:

struck Sarah was the fact that people are just really busy

Asha Singh:

every day, you know, it wasn't that they didn't want to talk to

Asha Singh:

her or listen to her or that they were speaking over her.

Asha Singh:

They were quite surprised by she and the other female colleagues

Asha Singh:

shared quite a lot of you know, their, their different

Asha Singh:

experiences in the team and the guys were surprised, shocked,

Asha Singh:

who's perhaps a bit strong, but it was surprised by what they

Asha Singh:

heard. And we're very respectful and you know, made every effort

Asha Singh:

to make sure that those things would get addressed in the

Asha Singh:

future. So that kind of team collective, you know,

Asha Singh:

exploration also at a deeper level can be really, really

Asha Singh:

useful. And join us for episode two of the pocket Dojo podcast

Asha Singh:

on Monday, the 27th of November at 9am. When we'll be talking

Asha Singh:

about the importance of finding your own voice, women leader,

Asha Singh:

and ways that you can do that. As always, you'll be able to

Asha Singh:

watch us on your favourite podcast channels, including

Asha Singh:

YouTube. We'll also be on social media at LinkedIn, Facebook, and

Asha Singh:

Instagram. See you then.

Paul Crick:

Bye for now.

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube