We often assume the hardest part of facilitation is designing the exercises. But what happens when hierarchy doesn't just shape the conversation — it physically stops it?

That's the story Evelyn van Kelle brought to this episode. She was a few weeks into working with a company going through major changes — uncertainty everywhere, fingers being pointed, decisions being avoided. She and a colleague proposed an EventStorming session. Leadership called it "a wasted day." Participants showed up hesitant, conversations stayed high-level, and there were no disagreements — a red flag for any facilitator. People were asking permission just to move a sticky note. Then there was the CTO. He wouldn't participate, but he'd walk in periodically, arms crossed, sometimes dropping a sarcastic comment. Each time, the entire group froze. But the grand finale came during a sense-making exercise: for the first time all day, someone was sharing something vulnerable. The CTO walked in, listened, and after a few seconds of silence — slow clapped. The room went silent. Everyone looked to the facilitators. Evelyn and her co-facilitator were overwhelmed.

What followed — and what Evelyn learned from it — is a masterclass in what facilitators do when their own physical reactions are peaking, when safety collapses in real time, and when dominant behaviour reveals how fragile the conditions for collaboration really were. This conversation explores the line between being neutral and acting neutral, why understanding destructive behaviour matters more than condemning it, and what Evelyn would do differently if she could go back.

Key Discussion Points

1. [00:01] Physical Reactions as Data: Evelyn explains why intense physical responses during facilitation are a signal to act, not to freeze
2. [00:03] "A Wasted Day": How leadership's resistance to the session set the conditions for failure before it even began
3. [00:05] Working Too Hard: The facilitator heuristic — when you're working harder than the group, something structural is blocking participation
4. [00:06] The CTO's Rounds: Arms crossed, sarcastic comments, no questions — and how the whole group froze every time he walked in
5. [00:08] The Slow Clap: The moment a vulnerable breakthrough was met with the CTO's slow clap, and how it peaked the facilitators' own physical reactions
6. [00:11] Understanding, Not Excusing: Evelyn's one-on-one with the CTO — learning that his behaviour earned him compliments from peers
7. [00:14] The Session That Shouldn't Have Happened: Why making collaborative modeling "business as usual" might have worked better than a big official event
8. [00:18] Acting Neutral vs. Being Neutral: Why facilitators can't truly be neutral, but must avoid setting the emotional tone for the group

Guest: Evelyn van Kelle, Gien Verschatse Hosts: Andrea Magnorsky, Kenny Schwegler

Hello and welcome to Stories on facilitating

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Software Design and Architecture.

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My name is Ky and today we're here

to listen a story from Evelyn Van.

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As usual, we're here with our, um,

our co-conspirator, Kenny Re, and,

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uh, so Evelyn, please take it away.

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Evelyn van Kelle: Yeah, thanks.

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And thank you for inviting me, because I'm

really enthusiastic about this initiative.

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So when, Andrea and Kenny, when you

asked me to think about examples

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or to share some story about,

situations where I learned a lot

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when it comes to facilitation.

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I really had a hard time picking

one, to be honest, because there's

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really a lot to choose from, right.

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And there are different situations where

you learn a lot and where you learn

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also your own heuristics in that sense.

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So am very much busy with observing

behavior in these kind of,

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collaborative modeling sessions

as well that I facilitate.

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And then you start to observe a lot

of behavioral patterns that learn

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you a lot as well as a facilitator.

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so when I started to dig my memory

and try to select the story, I decided

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that I would go with an example that

gave me personally probably the most

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intense physical reaction because

usually when I have a very physical

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reaction to a situation, that means

that there's something to learn.

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So that's also kind of

a heuristic for myself.

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and so well then it's not

coincidental that, this example

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also had a pretty big impact on me.

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it stayed with me.

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I learned a lot from it.

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And, specifically I learned a lot

about the impact of ranking, and

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understanding or at least trying to

understand dominant, behavior in, uh,

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uh, in, in these kind of sessions.

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let me take you to, to the

story, to the situation.

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we're going back to, an event

storming session that I facilitated

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together with a colleague, and this

is already, it's, it's years ago.

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So I, I basically, actually,

I just started with the

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whole facilitation journey.

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So this was kind of a.

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Well, um, uh, a very nice thing

to, uh, to, uh, experience

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in the, in your early days.

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Um, so this company where we

did this, was really going

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through a lot of major changes.

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There was a lot of uncertainty

within the company.

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and that translated also to, people

being afraid of, of making any decisions.

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So there weren't a lot of decisions made.

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they were pointing fingers to each other.

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There was very much this transactional

leadership, so you do something

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for me, I do something for you.

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and hierarchy was very, very present

in, in these daily operations.

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So in daily meetings it was mostly

people that were very high in the,

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high in rank or high up in the

hierarchy that were speaking, most

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and telling people what to do.

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People were looking at them.

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were very much played

in this organization.

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So I was already there for a few

weeks and then we decided, hey, maybe

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we should do this, uh, this event

storming session because we can think

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it will add value for your company.

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we had a very rough time convincing

leadership that that was the case.

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And that it wasn't just a wasted

day as it was called by, some

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of the leaders in that group.

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Um, because just that day could

also be spent on real work.

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Real work.

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Um, so you can imagine that this

was, a rough start that we had there.

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Um, and, um, the reaction of leadership

also made that the participants of

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this session were very hesitant.

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to join and to, actually express ideas and

opinions because, well, why are we here?

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Should we be here?

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Shouldn't we do something else?

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So there was this uncertainty

throughout, and we noticed

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that in the session as well.

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conversations didn't really took off.

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everything stayed very high level

during the event storming session.

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There were.

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disagreements, which for me is a

red flag because, well, if there are

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no disagreements at all, then that

usually is a sign that we are not

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dealing with, what's underneath the

water line or what's in the shadows,

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as we call it in the, uh, in our book.

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there were always no hotspots

added to the event storming.

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Everyone was on the same.

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and what very much stood out

was that everyone was asking for

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approval, even to move a sticky

to specific people in that room.

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And, it turned out that these people

were also pretty high up in rank,

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but this was the situation that we

were dealing with during that event.

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Storm.

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as facilitators, uh, we

had to work very hard.

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Uh, we had to work very hard to

get some things going, to get

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people and stickies, moving around.

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And usually that is also heuristic for us.

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If you, as a facilitator, find

yourself working very hard.

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Then something is up, something is up.

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And I, I don't wanna say wrong,

but something is going on that

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you probably want to dig in.

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and honestly, I got frustrated in

that session because I felt like

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I could not make an impact, uh,

and that I was proving leadership,

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uh, and that resistance, right?

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And that really, uh, that really hit me.

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So I really find that very annoying.

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so yeah, we were very determined to

get a breakthrough in that session.

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we decided that we should intervene

more than usual, probably with,

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sense-making exercises as well, trying

to get some of the implicit explicit.

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So, making the shadows

visible in other words.

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So, yeah, we could feel that there

was a lot going on in the shadows.

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We could observe it in the behavior

of the people that were participating,

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but it really felt as a facilitator.

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It kind of felt like my flashlight wasn't

working, so I couldn't really, shine a

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light on the shadows and not really see

what's going on and make that explicit.

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So, this is also when I decided

to apply one of my own heuristics.

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Like when I don't feel in control,

stand back literally, and I just

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start to observe what's happening.

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and that's also when I started to

observe more of the behavioral patterns

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that I also linked to, uh, to ranking.

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Um.

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One thing to add to the situation,

which this was setting the

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scene, so this was the case.

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What also was present in the situation.

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We had a, CTO in that organization that,

as I said, was part of the leadership

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and not really a big fan of this day

and this event, storm, taking place.

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and, his role in the session, we invited

him of course, but he had other things

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to do and there was, uh, there was, well,

there was more important work to do.

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and so he wasn't going to make it all day.

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What he did do throughout the day

was, he walked in every now and then.

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He walked in every now and then

in the session, and basically to

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check how things were going, without

actively participating himself.

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So he walked in, he had a look,

he had a look at the events.

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So at the, at the Brown paper, he,

observed the people for a while

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without saying anything, just standing

there, with his hands full like this.

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Um, yeah.

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And then, and, and then he walked out.

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So you, sometimes he made a comment,

sometimes he said something or,

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he made a sarcastic comment.

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Usually he didn't ask any questions.

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but that's what he, uh,

uh, that's what he did.

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every time that he walked in, I noticed

the physical reaction in myself.

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I got tense, my shoulders got tense,

my breath got through my throat,

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and I started to feel nervous and

starting to sweat in a, in a, in a way.

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I also noticed that it did

something to the group, um, that

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was there because every time he

walked in, it kind of stopped.

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So people stopped, writing on

stickies, stopped sharing opinion

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shops, stopped sharing, anything.

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Basically, no stickies were created.

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just, the whole thing stopped.

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then the grand finale, happened because

one of the last times that he walked

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into the room, that was actually

in the middle of a sense-making

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exercise and a sense-making exercise,

is aimed to, um, well at least.

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Make sense of the situation.

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So what's going on?

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Where are we, how do we

feel about certain topics?

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how does the group feel about certain

topics and how are the opinions or

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the, uh, the interpretations of stuff,

how is that like divided in a way?

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So it can be a pretty

vulnerable exercise to do.

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we were in the middle of

that sense making exercise.

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For the first time in that day,

there was actually one person who

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was sharing something vulnerable,

and it really felt like a

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breakthrough for us as facilitators.

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but then the CTO walked in and we could

really feel the energy change again.

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So he took place in the circle

because we were standing in a circle.

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and then this one person was

brave enough to continue with that

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story, sharing the concerns and the

thoughts and the insecurity that,

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uh, that they had in this session.

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CTO looked and he listened,

after a few seconds of silence,

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he started to slow clap.

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He really, he really did that.

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And, that's when the physical

reaction in me peaked.

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not just with me what I could observe,

but this is really where I felt the

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physical reaction peaking in myself.

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And I like, okay, this is, I, I need to

do something with this because this is.

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Okay.

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Yes, I can learn a lot, but yes, this is

something where I could act, because I'm

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a facilitator, people are looking at you.

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the CTO walked out of the room

and the group was standing

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there in silence looking for us.

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Uh, my, uh, my co-facilitator and,

myself, and we were overwhelmed as well.

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So I figured that the best

thing to do at that point would

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just be, to make that explicit.

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Share, what that did

with me in that moment.

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So I also shared my feelings and the

physical reaction that I got, and

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admitting that I did not have an answer

at that point on how to continue.

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that it made me feel unsafe,

that made me feel defensive.

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Um, and those are feelings

that I don't really like.

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So the other facilitator did the same

thing, shared the vulnerabilities

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and the un insecurities and

the, and the unsafe feelings.

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Then we took a break and we

decided that, we asked the group.

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do you wanna do?

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Do you wanna continue or

do you wanna stop here?

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and the group decided that

they wanted to continue.

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So we did.

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we also did some sort of a sense making

exercise for people that wanted to

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share something about the situation.

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And we got something back.

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So I think it was good in hindsight, but

the impact that this behavior had on the

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group that was really, really intense.

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Um, yeah, so it was a very, very

interesting situation at that point in

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hindsight, because in that moment, of

course, it was not interesting at all,

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because it just made me feel unsafe and,

insecure and all of, and I was like, oh,

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but I am also responsible for this group.

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So what should we do?

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I think what I learned from it, um,

mostly is that, this behavior can

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really have an effect on the group,

especially if the conditions are

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already not optimal in terms of safety.

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And, and, and now people

want to share stuff.

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I also learned, again, if I get a physical

reaction, I should do something because

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that's a moment where I should act

and can make an impact on a situation.

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Um, I also learned that.

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Despite my interpretation and my judgment

of this behavior of this person, it

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is my job to stay objective and stay

neutral, or at least act neutral in a way.

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and try to understand where

this behavior is coming from.

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I also learned that from behavioral

science where I, uh, uh, where I

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have a background in, it's important

to understand or at least try to

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understand where it's coming from

because only then you can make an

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attempt in changing that behavior.

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I never do that during a session because

I don't want to put people on the spot.

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But I did learn, okay, if I feel

triggered by certain behavior, then

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that's a cue for me that I need to dig

into that behavior and ask questions to

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that person and try to figure out why

is this person showing this behavior?

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What is it bringing him or her?

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Or, or them, because.

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If you show certain behavior, it

always brings something to you

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despite what others might think.

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It's beneficial for you in a way.

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And I need to know what that

beneficial consequence is for that

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person by showing that behavior.

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So I learned a lot in that session.

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Um, it caused me a couple of

sleepless nights afterwards that

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that was, uh, that was also the case.

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Um, but I think.

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Every facilitator will come into a

situation where they find themselves

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facing behavior that they don't like,

that they, that they get triggered by,

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that they feel like, ah, what should I do?

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And, it's hindering the group.

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so I think it's a very, uh, very,

it's a situation we all will get to.

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you can learn a lot from it.

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So I think that was the example that

I wanted to share in this session.

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Kenny Schwegler: So the first thing

that popped in mind is, on the one hand,

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leadership wasn't really a fan of this,

but you know, it's, it will help them.

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and that's a very related, as least

for me, that's a very related thing.

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You say, well, you know, this can really

help them, but leadership isn't in place.

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So in hindsight, would you think you

switch, you would still do that session?

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Evelyn van Kelle: I think I

would've done it in a different way.

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To be honest, I don't think I

would've done it in this, in this way.

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because indeed it, now it also felt

like we were trying to convince them

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that this would be valuable, and I don't

think that's the best approach or what

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I've, what I would do now in hindsight.

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because I was already there

in the organization, right?

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So I had, yeah, access is not the right

word, but I was already collaborating

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with all of these people there.

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So I think I would just do it in a

more like Aurelia kind of way, like

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within the group when, whenever we

had a session, just start modeling

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out, things collaboratively without

making it a huge session and making

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it a big thing also for leadership.

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So making it more part of the.

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Business as usual in a sense, and

just try to experiment with this way

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of working together, because now it

became maybe too big in, uh, in a way.

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Yeah.

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Andrea Magnorsky: it sounds like very

emotionally charged, the whole thing.

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and I kind of wonder as you were

there, Do you have any exercises

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that you do to regulate your

emotions, like some kind of your own?

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Okay, now I read this way.

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I would say these words first,

just to give you, take, take you

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to your body and to people that

you're trying to create safety.

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Do you have any kind

of tricks like that or.

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Evelyn van Kelle: I think for myself

personally, whenever I feel that

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happening, I literally take a step back.

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Usually, just, trying to breathe, take

some distance, and just observing what's

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happening because I also know when I get a

physical reaction, my vision gets blurry.

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So I probably see things that are not

there or that are only there for me.

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So taking a step back is something,

but I also, whenever I feel like I'm

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not the only one, it's also, or I

observe that I'm not the only one.

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It's also, worth it to, throw in

a sense making exercise that is

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really aimed at just making feelings

or, Physical reactions, explicit

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also to the rest of the group.

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So seeing, hey, am I the only one or is

anyone recognizing what I'm experiencing?

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And just by asking the simple

question, does anyone recognize this?

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When I share something about what

it's doing to me that's already about

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very powerful thing because the rest

of the group can, also like, yeah,

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I recognize some parts of it now.

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You don't have to recognize all of

it, but at least, yeah, yeah, I can.

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Yeah, I can relate.

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And that like creates a

bond with a group as well.

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So that's also a technique

that you could use.

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Gien Verschatse (she/her): Did you ever,

you said you worked for the company, like

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did you ever talk to the CTO about his

behavior and how destructive that actually

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was once you calmed down afterwards?

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Evelyn van Kelle: Yes, I absolutely,

did and I, or at least I tried.

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I think that's the, that's,

that's the best way.

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because indeed, like, as I said,

it was a trigger for me to at least

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try to understand the behavior.

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So why did that happen?

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And I don't wanna do that in a group.

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I only wanna do that one-on-one.

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So indeed, I initiated that

conversation and my goal there was to.

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Share my observations, share

what it did to me, and then just

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let him talk, and ask questions.

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Not saying like, Hey, this is what

you did wrong, or, Hey, this was, this

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was very destructive to the session,

and you shouldn't do that again.

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asking questions, trying to understand

where the behavior was coming from.

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I never got a full, real conversation.

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at least it didn't feel like it, but

what I did get from him, after the more

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superficial answers like, yeah, but that

people shouldn't take it that seriously.

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And, uh, yeah, you know, well,

you know how people can get.

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Um, and after a while, what I did notice

was that he was feeling a lot of pressure

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from everyone in his, uh, in his team.

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and that this kind of behavior was

actually behavior that when you

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shared that with the rest of the group

that you would get compliments for.

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From that perspective, I understand,

like for him at that point, that was

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behavior that would bring him something.

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and that something was more important than

the progress of the group at that point.

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So we didn't really get to the

bottom of it because he, he also,

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he also kept his guards up in a way.

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but that is indeed like my strategy

going to that person one-on-one,

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trying to explain what's behind it.

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And then the most difficult part of

that is to leave my own judgements

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out of that, because of course I was

judging everything was happening there.

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Yeah.

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Andrea Magnorsky: You said something

else while you were explaining your

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position, you said, I need to, as

a facilitator, I'm paraphrasing.

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you need, as a facilitator,

I need to remain neutral.

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and I'm curious about that.

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Why, why, why do you think

that that's the case?

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Evelyn van Kelle: Yeah.

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Or at least act neutral.

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So I don't think I can be fully

neutral because I wasn't of course.

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But I need to act neutral in a way

because I think if I would just let

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my emotions and my judgments and

opinions, um, room free in that way.

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Um, also participants in that

session look at you as someone who's

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probably higher in rank because you

are a facilitator, and that means

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that they will follow your lead.

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And whenever I set the tone by saying,

for example, Hey, this was ridiculous, or

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this was whatever, words you would give

to that, then it would be very hard for

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people who might have another opinion

or would want to share something else.

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because I already set the stage

with my opinion and my judgment.

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So by acting neutral, I hope to give the

rest of the group also the opportunity

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to share how they feel without me just,

yeah, leading the way in that and, and

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setting the tone for everyone else.

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That's what I want to avoid, but

that was very hard in that moment.

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Kenny Schwegler: also, it is very

hard because you later shared that you

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shared your feelings first after the

session, which I think was a good thing.

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So sometimes as a facilitator, yes,

we want to act neutral, but sometimes

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also the group you to start first.

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So you can also set a stage

in a way, in a rank, right?

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So that it's very hard.

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It's you all, I, I, uh, I

still find it very hard.

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when to talk first, when to leave

the group as very, uh, do you deal?

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Evelyn van Kelle: that main thing there

was that there was a break in between.

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So my first emotional reaction, I didn't

like that, that that didn't really

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happen because the guy walked out and

we were like, okay, let's take a break.

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And then when the group came back, I

was like, okay, we need to redress it.

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And I could talk about how I felt and

my insecurities and my, feelings of

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unsafety in a more calm manner, let's

say by, and then inviting the rest of

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the group to do the same if they wanted.

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So.

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that first emotional reaction, we

skipped that and I think that was,

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that was the, the most neutral

I could act in that, in sense.

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Kenny Schwegler: So one thing, uh, so we

wrote, we, we wrote the book together.

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He, you and me and you

were talking about shadows.

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Mm-hmm.

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I actually, the metaphor, I actually

never thought about this, but you

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said something very interesting.

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So.

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you were talking about the shadows

and you're trying to find out the

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shadows, but as you were talking, I

was actually thinking people in higher

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rank can actually overshadow the other

shadows in this way, so I've never.

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Thought about it, and I

think that's happened.

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So someone in the room, and I think every

time we talk with people about this,

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there's two types of dominant people.

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There's the dominant one and there's

the silent one, and I think the

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dominant one will actually overshadow.

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So you cannot literally see the other

people's thoughts in the overshadowing.

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So how would you now deal

with that if there is someone

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overshadowing the rest of the group?

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Evelyn van Kelle: Um, like there are

a lot of factors at play there, right?

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So how you, how you could deal with that?

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So, first of all, I would.

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try to figure out if it's only hindering

me or if it's hindering the group.

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Because that's also something

as a facilitator, right?

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Sometimes you feel like something

is hindering the session or the

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outcomes, but it's only hindering you.

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The rest of the group

doesn't see it as a problem.

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sense making exercise could work for that.

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Or just having conversations and breaks

with people just to figuring out, is

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this my problem or is it a group problem?

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If it's a group problem, I

think I would've tried to.

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Address the CTO in this sense earlier,

and hope to avoid that, that, that,

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that bronze finale that we had with him.

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So maybe whenever he walked in, like,

in the middle of the day, say, Hey,

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do you have time for a quick coffee?

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And then have a one-on-one

conversation with him on my

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observations of the group, what it

did, and maybe like asking him, Hey.

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What do you hope to achieve

with this session today?

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And then trying to do that

reflection a bit sooner and

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avoid what we ended up with?

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Um, I think, I think that would,

yeah, would be worth an attempt.

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On the other hand, I don't know

if you can prevent everything in

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this, in, in situations like this.

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Andrea Magnorsky: When, when you were

organizing the workshop, like just before

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the workshop, did you have a stated

goal as to like, you know, what you'd

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have a whole day, generally you will

have some sort of like, we're trying to.

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what did you tell people you were

doing and what was your goal?

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Maybe they were slightly different.

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Evelyn van Kelle: Hmm.

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Now we had a, um, so we had multiple

conversations already with both the

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team and the leadership because they

didn't really mix in a way, which was

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already a sign, I think, or at least a

signal, that something, could change.

401

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But we did have a lot of conversation

because as I said, they were

402

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going through major changes and

there were specific parts of the

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company that were going through.

404

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Uh, also through, uh, very technical

changes and, process changes and

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therefore also people changed of course.

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So they wanted to get, as they

stated it, they wanted to get a

407

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clear overview of, the situation

right now so that they could, decide.

408

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things should change for the better

in the future, given the goals

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that they had as an organization.

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So I thought, well, collaborative

modeling could be a very nice

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tool for you guys to use.

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and hey, you'll have two, experts in

facilitation that can help you with that.

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the group was pretty much, right

away, very, in favor of doing this.

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They were like, yes, this could help us.

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And, but leadership really only.

416

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Ask questions, which is also a

sign or signal about like, yeah,

417

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but how much time will that cost?

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And, what does that mean

for reaching our deadlines?

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Or what does that mean for the backlog?

420

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Or like that sort of questions.

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They were more focused on what it would

cost and the group or the team was

422

00:22:39,827 --> 00:22:41,237

more focused on what it would bring.

423

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So those two perspectives

didn't really, align in a way.

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And that was kind of where

it went wrong, I think.

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Andrea Magnorsky: Yes.

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Thank you very much Evelyn and

everyone for your questions,

427

00:22:56,755 --> 00:22:57,835

comments, and everything.

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We also learned a lot.

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I think we have a few nice heuristics.

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00:23:01,825 --> 00:23:07,555

Thank you Evelyn, and see you next time on

the next episode of facilitating stories

431

00:23:07,675 --> 00:23:09,775

of software design and architecture.

432

00:23:10,936 --> 00:23:11,731

Evelyn van Kelle: Thank you.