Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 28 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

P-Soupers - This week's treat for your ears is my chat with Andrew Sewell - he's a coach, an author and a fellow northerner.

In this episode you'll hear how Andrew became fascinated by psychology and personal development - and how his career path included teaching English as a foreign language, script writing in Hollywood and stand up comedy, as well as honing a career in copywriting. He's talks about leaving his career and how he worked with me as his coach at that pivotal time. He's since retrained as a coach, written a book and set up his company called - Overthinkers Anonymous.

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.

There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

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Part 1 Final

[00:00:06] so my overthinking was. It, you know, ramped up to 11 I was having lots of sleepless nights. I was just stressed out.

[00:00:40] And I knew. That sort of always, I'd always, my head had been in it, but my heart really hadn't been in it. And I just, I don't know, I think it was just the time when I thought it's now or never really, I need to do something that's fully aligned with who I am as a person.

[00:00:56] And that's when I met you for the first time. That's when I was thinking I need some kind of coach to help me through this transition. Your name came on my radar, being a Northern ACT person. Ha ha ha.

[00:01:31] He talks about leaving his career, and how he worked with me as his coach at that pivotal time. He's since retrained as a coach, written a book, and set up his company called Overthinkers Anonymous.

[00:02:02] Let's just scoot over to the news desk, because I'm not sure if you've heard, I'll be running an Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program in April and May next year, over four sessions, in partnership with Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting. You'll find all the links in the show notes, and early bird rates are still available

[00:02:33] And reviews are in for our last episode, which was McKinnon about loneliness at work, and his Connect and Thrive campaign. Fabien Little on LinkedIn said, I recommend you listen for the weekend, or any day of the week for that matter, the latest episode of the Brilliant PeopleSoup podcast. Starting with an interesting perspective on careers in organizational psychology, then delving brilliantly into the too seldom talked about issue of loneliness at work.

[00:03:14] Your support is what makes the PeopleSoup community so special. So please do keep listening and subscribing, sharing, and letting me know what you think. If you make some noise about the podcast and our guests, we'll reach more people with stuff that could be useful. And PeeSupers, here's one more piece of exciting news.

[00:03:52] for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to my chat with Andrew Sewell. [00:04:00]

[00:04:05] Great. Thank you, Ross. Thanks for having me on.

[00:04:25] Okay.

[00:04:42] excellent. Now, this wasn't always the case. Seven years ago.

[00:05:49] How are we doing so far?

[00:06:01] I

[00:06:02] yeah, okay.

[00:06:16] To do a comedy special, building on your previous experience in the world of stand up.

[00:06:29] Heh heh heh

[00:06:34] Mate, I just thought, sometimes if you put stuff out there... Heh heh heh heh heh heh. You never know. It is, it is light hearted. But for me, it does illustrate how you're really prepared to step outside of your comfort zone.

[00:07:03] As, as you should be. now that's what my research department have gleaned. But I wonder if you could expand a bit more on that. Tell us a bit. About what's got you to where you are in your life today. And some of the pivotal moments along the way.

[00:07:28] Whee!

[00:08:12] And he wrote it with his therapist, his family therapist, who's called Robin Skinner. And that book was like, it was a conversation, the book was a conversation. And Robin was just explaining how, what makes like, some people more mentally healthy than others, and happier than others. And it talked about all kinds of things, family dynamics, and meaning, and the universe, and stuff.

[00:08:54] And I think those, those two interests, like the more psychological side and the sort of creative side those have been the driving force in my life really. As most people do, when I eventually went to university, I met like a really, a brilliant psychology lecturer called Steve Sayers, who, you know, went off the syllabus script and talked about super interesting stuff, and I was like, oh my god, I want to do that when I grow up, that's definitely what I want to be, I want to be some kind of like, psychology lecturer.

[00:09:41] So I ended up doing teaching English as a foreign language. And then I got offered two jobs. I got offered one teaching job in Poland and one in Saudi Arabia. And obviously I had some moral qualms about Saudi Arabia, but I was skid and I needed to pay off my student loans. So I, so I ended up [00:10:00] doing this sort of private tuition in Saudi Arabia for like six months.

[00:10:44] So I thought, oh, that taps into my creative... Vibes, let's do this. So I did screenwriting there for a couple of years and met some other people in the class and then a couple of years later we moved from where we were in Boston over to Los Angeles to be Hollywood screenwriters. Which was like the typical sort of crazy idea of a 24 year old.

[00:11:08] like as if it was gonna be easy.

[00:11:15] you had the dream and then you did it. It might have been, some might consider it naive. But heck, man.

[00:11:39] And at the same time I was writing these scripts at night that were going to be the sort of big sellers. I did write a couple of scripts, but none of them sold for a million dollars

[00:12:15] I wrote a sitcom that got shortlisted for some BBC award, but it didn't get like picked up. And then at that time I was like, Oh, I need to do something, you know, that's going to actually make me some money now. So I ended up fortunately. Getting a job in advertising as a copywriter. So that was kind of like, it was a compromise for me, but it was a way to get paid to do creative stuff.

[00:12:53] I didn't like some of the clients we had to work for. I didn't really buy into the full premise of advertising, if I'm honest, but I liked, I liked doing the creative ideas.

[00:13:03] And it was a really fun job on lots of levels. And it was, you work with sort of bright people and you got, I personally got lots of autonomy and, you know, I got praise for my ideas and things.

[00:13:33] So there was always part of me that was trying to get out basically, but I was also, also didn't really. Think it was possible because I was earning decent money and stuff.

[00:14:02] yeah. Yeah. I saw a bit of that. Yeah

[00:14:29] No, I definitely not. I mean I was in a sector of advertising that was more to do with People so I was doing like recruitment campaigns for teachers and all kinds of different people prison officers So I was doing like a very defined sector of advertising. I wasn't doing like ads for Coca Cola and things like that.

[00:15:08] So it isn't just sort of waffle. And how do I creatively sort of bring this, what could be sometimes a really dry subject, like to life in an interesting way? So, From a sort of actual work perspective, that was great. So often in the early days, this has changed massively with the, obviously the creation of the internet, and it's put lots of pressure on advertising budgets and you get much less time to do the ideas, and it's a totally different thing now, now in 2023 than it was even when I was doing it in 27.

[00:16:00] It was an amazing job from that perspective. But then, yeah. Obviously, when you become a manager, it gets harder. There's always, like every organization, there's always narcissists, and bullies, and crazy clients, and pressure, and you have to do too much too fast, and, you know, terrible communication, all of that stuff.

[00:16:30] Curiosity. Somebody said to me, a long time ago, yeah, but it sticks out in my mind, someone in advertising, one of the account directors said, I love you. You know what I love about you? You are just like, endlessly curious about stuff. And she's like, I wish everyone in my team had that. And yeah, absolutely.

[00:17:08] And if you could go and talk to yourself at school, if, if the Andrew now could go and offer words of wisdom to the Andrew, who'd got his, just got his A level results. What, what would you say to him?

[00:17:46] Mm.

[00:17:52] It's like it all worked out really, I mean, I was,

[00:17:54] I got some lucky breaks, but I also had the courage to put myself in the positions where those [00:18:00] things could occur. And I think that's probably quite a key piece of. Advice I would say to myself just trust those instincts and go for it when you feel that like urge to do something That's a bit crazy or out of the box or a bit out of your comfort zone.

[00:18:25] Yeah. I love that. And I don't know, maybe I'm just, I haven't got many examples, but thinking about myself as someone doing, at the time I was doing O Levels and A levels, but my a a levels didn't pan out in the right, well in the way I expected. And you kind of think, oh God, the whole, the whole world is crashing down.

[00:19:11] And I sense that young people today are more open to having different stages to their career than people of my generation. I'm not sure.

[00:20:04] Okay, we go from this school and then we go to the secondary school and then we go to this. in a level six form that you just ingrade with that step by step process. So you think, oh, that's how the rest of your life has to go. And obviously some people take that path and are absolutely happy, but it didn't work out that way for me.

[00:20:26] That's why it's great that you're so open in talking about this because, let's be clear, you reached a senior level in your copywriting job. so tell us more about the point where you were actually reaching that moment when you were actually. stepping away from that career. Tell us about kind of the build up to that and how, how that was.

[00:21:08] Advertising school. My background was just different and it was like it stood me apart in the market for that entry level copywriting job. The person who interviewed me said, Oh, your background is so interesting. This is... you've obviously got something about you.

[00:21:39] Definitely. Yeah. And that was me just being like me true to myself and it takes bravery to do it because especially if most of the people aren't doing that or doing something different, but yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:00] Yeah. I mean, yeah, good, point to bring this in. I mean, 100%, I've definitely always been a fairly anxious person, I would say. Also creative, I think creative and overthinking probably go hand in hand quite a lot. So I've always had the sort of, I'm a weird mix of being brave and scared at the same time.

[00:22:42] Yeah, definitely.

[00:22:54] Um, it was not great, I would describe it as. So that was, that was probably one of the most. Difficult parts,

[00:23:04] I mean, in one way, you could say it was a classic midlife crisis, but I wouldn't really, it was a midlife transition, that's for sure. So I was 45 and I was, the people I was working with were absolutely awesome, like my boss was amazing, and the team I sort of managed were great, so there was absolutely nothing wrong with the people.

[00:23:48] I think all of that, looking back, I didn't say this at the time, but like, you know, with seven years of reflective time, I think all of that just overwhelmed me to some extent.

[00:23:58] And so my overthinking [00:24:00] was. It, you know, ramped up to 11 I was having lots of sleepless nights. I was just stressed out.

[00:24:33] And I knew. That sort of always, I'd always, my head had been in it, but my heart really hadn't been in it. And I just, I don't know, I think it was just the time when I thought it's now or never really, I need to do something that's fully aligned with who I am as a person. Fortunately, I've got a partner, Alice, who was like amazingly supportive and she's got a decent job and stuff.

[00:25:18] And that's when I met you for the first time

[00:25:34] Yeah, so how did you, how did you discover Act?

[00:26:31] I'm more of a gestalt, like psychotherapy if you're gonna be in that sort of space. But yeah, act, I thought, oh, that's good. That's like, that brings in like the mindfulness meditation with a bit of this sort of C B T stuff. And it was a different approach, and I thought that, that intersection could work for me.

[00:26:59] Oh, and when you reached out to me as fellow Northerners and. Psychologists and those interested in act. What's your recollection of that? Our sessions together? Anything that stands out for you?

[00:27:50] I came, I can remember I was right. I was commuting into London by bike and I rode over my bike and I was like, Oh, that was awesome. That was good. So I really enjoyed it.

[00:28:26] And what I saw as my role is to hold up a mirror so you could see what I could see in you.

[00:29:03] I was always a back in the day I was a terrible presenter, but I went on one of those journeys where I went from really anxious, doing stand up comedy helped me become a more confident presenter. So I'd kind of like, got the skills in place, but absolutely, yeah. Even when, even when I wrote the first draft of this book and gave it to some people to review, they were like, you've been, you've been too, you're not being confident enough there.

[00:29:46] Oh my god What am I going to do with my future?

[00:30:05] Yeah, that's, that's perfectly said. I, so throughout, so the last, I left advertising met you seven years ago. It's now the books come out literally next week. So there's a seven year gap I've trained to be a coach. So I did that full coach training. It was a postgraduate level.

[00:30:43] Hmm. And thank you for doing this because I think it's a topic that's so important. I love, I, I, You know how you can follow someone and you maybe don't chat to them for a while, a few years, but I love seeing your evolution on platforms like LinkedIn, but I'm loving where you've got to with Overthinkers Anonymous because it just makes me go hallelujah.

[00:31:11] Yeah, and also don't get me wrong I'm still scared it's still emotions don't simply disappear I'm still feeling emotions, but it's counterforce of Just sort of blows that away a bit. It's, it feels like, as I sort of said at the start, it's about a process that's unfolding. And just now is the, it's unfolding in the right way for me. Now, in the sense that it's finally becoming lighter, as in psychologically lighter, I have less on my mind. So I'm just more in the zone.

[00:31:44] oh, that's such, that's such a beautiful thing to hear and, and it shows, it shows in the book, it shows in, in what you're posting. And also you're prepared to be vulnerable on, on social media in your posts. And I think that's so important for have you [00:32:00] as a role model for us.

[00:32:24] Yeah, absolutely

[00:32:25] Song Choice

[00:32:39] And it would announce your arrival for the next, say, two or three months. It's not forever. But what would your song choice be?

[00:33:12] That was sort of something. And I was looking for a structure. And in the pandemic I'd done the couch to 5k and I thought, Oh, that's a cool structure. I'll do like a couch to 5k for, for overthinkers. So, and then when I was doing my sort of, Lunchtime, walk, run, jog, whatever, getting outside. I was thinking about, like, my early days.

[00:33:57] Like, and I was, so I thought [00:34:00] I'm going to use, I'm going to try and weave that like stitching vignettes vibe into this couch to 5k structure and create my own version of that. So that, so it has to be side two of Abbey Road is my song choice, which is about 20 minutes long. So yeah, it's going to be a bit long for an introduction.

[00:34:27] This is an old school album.

[00:34:33] Pea soup, as that said, part one of my chat with Andrew in the bag. It's always great to chat with Andrew. I love his creativity and courage. A big thanks to my producer Emma. We've got loads more ideas in the pipeline, so keep those ears peeled. If you like this episode or the podcast, please could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:35:33] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now. But that was a super exciting... Refreshing Friday experience, to see, to just go into a bit of depth on it and see you glowing, man.