T shares their powerful story of spending over two decades in a coercive Sufi group and what it meant to finally walk away. We talk about the search for belonging that can draw people into high-control spaces, the manipulation and fear that keep them there, and the emotional cost of suppressing identity for the sake of faith.

T reflects on cultic vows, spiritual betrayal, and the resilience it took to reclaim their truth and embracing their sexuality during the pandemic and navigating today’s hostile climate around trans and reproductive healthcare. Their story is one of both heartbreak and renewal, showing how healing and self-definition are possible even after deep religious harm.

Who Is T?

Born in the US, T graduated from Union Theological Seminary in New York City in 1993. Once a gay feminist liberation theologian, they later spent over two decades (1997–2020) in a coercive Sufi Muslim group in the American Midwest, where obedience to a “living guru” became central to their life. After leaving during the Covid pandemic, T has been reclaiming their sense of self and voice. They are now an activist and a PhD candidate in performance, bringing both lived experience and academic insight to their work as they continue the process of recovery and transformation.

Connect With Us

• For all details surrounding T and his performance pieces head to - https://quityourcult.net
• You can also connect via Facebook, Instagram or YouTube

• You can find out more about Sam on her website – www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram – @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
• Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

00:06 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagurra land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

00:46

Hey there, and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high-control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. Sam and each week, I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome T. Thanks for joining me.

01:30 - T (Guest)

Thanks for having me.

01:32 - Sam (Host)

I'm excited about this conversation because I know very, very little about your story, and they're sometimes my favorite conversations to have because I don't have any prior knowledge. I get to just like hear your story firsthand in real time and I just there's something about that that I love. So but for a bit of context for people, where in the world are you at the moment?

01:59 - T (Guest)

I am in the United States and I am in Southern Illinois. It's a place where no tourist would ever come. It's Chicago is five hours north of here, st Louis is two hours northwest of here, we're sort of in the middle and a little town called Carbondale, which, in the current state of US politics, is the southernmost town where you can get trans affirming health care or reproductive health care. So this little town has become, isn't, isn't it shocking to think of that here, or people coming, because within an hour, east, west and south of here you cannot get what you need if your family's facing these kinds of issues. So that's Carbondale.

02:53 - Sam (Host)

Illinois is where I am oh my goodness, I have been asking most people when I speak to someone in the US, like the equivalent of what a therapist would do in a welfare check, like how are you doing over there?

03:05 - T (Guest)

um, because it's a bit of a shit storm yeah, it's, I have to, I might I might get emotional immediately because it's like it's uh, it's indescribable, I mean, what what's happening is, uh, it seems to be getting honestly worse. Like I mean, I think it's just astounding that this has gone on and on and on and when, so many times, hundreds of times, we thought, oh, this will be the moment where it breaks, and it never has broken. So I mean, forgive me the analogy, but we have, um, we have sexual predators running our country and predators being empowered in the micro level, the local level and the governmental level. Everywhere they feel like they can just do what they want to do because they are not afraid.

04:05 - Sam (Host)

So it's terrible yeah, and their lack of fear just creates the most immense level of fear in everybody else. It's terrifying. So, um, before we derail the whole conversation on the state of the us, because I feel like it would be very, very easy to do- yes, exactly. I like to start these episodes with a very broad, vague question, which is where does your story start?

04:33 - T (Guest)

05:59

I attended a seminary there union theological seminary, which in the States is really well known for actually being probably the most radical seminary there. Union Theological Seminary, which in the States is really well known for actually being probably the most radical seminary. So very left-wing political, feminist and I mean. This is sort of I have told the story before, so forgive me if I get a little soundbitey, but one of the ways that I understand it is like I went to seminary and I was like this I wrote this whole thing. I was writing about anti-hierarchy and about how, you know, we're co-creators with God and I was. I was into all this like feminist, gay liberation, theology stuff and all this political stuff. And then and then three years later, I vowed obedience to a guy. I took a vow of obedience to a sufi guru. So there was a big shift in there somehow.

06:59 - Sam (Host)

yeah, yeah, and so I mean I think a lot of people have this, I mean as therapists we talk about and in the cult recovery and religious trauma space we go. People don't join cults, right.

07:15 - T (Guest)

They join groups.

07:16 - Sam (Host)

They join places of belonging they like. What was it about this space? How did we go from essentially liberation theology, which has immense beauty and community and connection to it, to vowing, obedience and devotion to this guru? How did we go from one to the other?

07:37 - T (Guest)

well, I think now that I've. So I'm five, I'm five years out, I got out at the end of so now I feel like I'm far enough away to start really thinking about how that worked. Now it's interesting because the last I've had a lot of encounters with people who came from very religious christian environments and and I was, I would. I was not going to be attracted to that kind of environment because I was raised sort of really I was raised going to be attracted to that kind of environment Cause I was raised sort of really I was raised with a feminist mom and we were like intellectuals and we were like we were sort of not going to be that way, right? Um, we weren't, we weren't we.

08:16

We sort of dissociated ourselves with these, with my idea like sort of in conservative Christians, and even when I went to seminary I kind of tried to be a Christian at times, but then the whole thing didn't make sense to me. I was like what is this, how, what? And I was thinking about being ordained. That didn't happen for lots of other reasons which may come up later if they need to, but this was different. So it matched my politics and I really feel like Sufism was this sort of romanticized, not US American thing. And I feel like, for those of us who might have identified sort of as being I don't know, anti-racist or multicultural or international or these these ways that I defined myself for complicated reasons, this idea that this was Sufi and sort of poetic and had had this lineage of sheikhs and and we learned a different language, and all of that felt to me cool theologically and in practice. But then this group of people was, it had kind of a hippie vibe. The sheikh had long hair, played an acoustic guitar and of course now I sort of see this everywhere in cultic environments. I'm like, oh, this is. But at the time I was like, oh, they're, wow, it's, they're spiritual, they get up early and do practices and meditation and and I mean for me the maybe the biggest part was, I mean, well, they also like had an organic farm and it was sort of it was sort of like put this into practice as a lifestyle, right.

10:05

But maybe the main thing was that I I came out as gay, as a, when I was a teenager, right, and my friend who invited me these stories and getting someone to trust are so important, so I remember him calling me he was visiting here from New York in Illinois. I was, I was in the next state studying, and when I was 29,. And he said, I said Sufis are, are they Muslims? And speaking maybe a little bit xenophobically, I was like, well, aren't they homophobic? Like, aren't they? These are just my assumptions at the time. And he's like, he's like, no like. And then he told me the story of how the reason he came to Carbondale was that a friend of his was dying with AIDS and that this group and the sheikh invited them and him and his friend who was dying and his mother to come and stay at their main house and gave them hospice care and nursed him until he died.

11:10

and I was like, what yeah, like that was such a compelling story to me, like they, they embraced him and they took care of him and and now you know, of course, looking back, I see the power of a story like that and how I just trusted. And then you know, just the guru who interested me not at all. I mean, I wasn't looking for a teacher, but I kind of came into this environment and I was like, um, this is really weird, like what. But then I felt a thing and I felt and it was sort of beautiful and and then there were these really formative moments and one of them that I that I realized after getting out of the cult, which is that I've I've come to see how many of these groups there's. Like so often not always, but so often there's the charismatic dude guy right and then there's these women around him that do his trust building and and basically his communication skills, because often they don't, they have shitty communication skills, right. So this his wife number one, because there were several is this charismatic gray-haired, crass, um kind of rock and roll fashion icon woman who just walks around town being awesome and literally to me now is the one who sort of proved it wasn't a cult by how she was right and I had this conversation with her and I've just actually written about this like, um, maybe the second or third time I came, she invited me out to her farmhouse.

13:14

14:14

People here are, so I remember saying this to her people here are so friendly and open and warm and and I said I don't think I can do it, like I had a lot of childhood trauma and stuff. And I told her I'm like I have sexual abuse and all kinds of stuff and I'm I'm working it out and I don't feel like I can. It's too beautiful, it's too nice. And then she took my hand and looked at me and refilled my tea or whatever, like the whole thing, and she said, sweetie, let me tell you my stories. And she sort of rolled out her trauma right and now look at me. And she's like well, look at me now.

14:57 - Sam (Host)

I mean, exposing vulnerability to a cult leader is like a moth to a flame, essentially, yes, and she is perfect at what she does and she's still here doing it.

15:11 - T (Guest)

Um, so I learned to trust her. So it was not. It wasn't that I learned to trust the guru, I learned to trust the people who trusted the guru, yeah, you know. So a year later, I moved, I I quit my PhD program because I was doing a PhD. Then I quit, I moved and I took a vow of obedience and I got a new name and I got a little ring that was sort of like the symbol of the marriage to the guru and I gave everything.

15:43 - Sam (Host)

How do you feel thinking about that now, like that vow that was taken and and just like giving up everything and moving to that space? I don't know.

15:54 - T (Guest)

I mean I did it, I don't, I don't feel when I think about it, I don't feel regretful, I feel I was a con. Now I see it as a kind of a long con, but also at that point the community had a feeling of openness, it had a thing, it had a feeling, a joyful, exciting feeling to me, which kind of predictably became more strained over time.

16:31 - Sam (Host)

I mean, I asked that question. I think there is a misconception from people who don't understand cult dynamics and leaving a cult and joining groups who end up being cults is that there is this misconception that well, surely you must regret that, um, but I think there is like a gap in that knowledge of going what I imagine it was meeting a need for you at the time. There was something in that space that was filling something deep inside that wasn't being filled anywhere else.

17:06 - T (Guest)

Yes, okay, I remember. I remember how I used to describe it to people and what you're getting at is really good, because I had, I had sexual drama. I had an an in the world. In my twenties, especially becoming a young adult, I had the feeling in the world that my, that I had no boundaries like I. I didn't feel boundaries, I didn't experience them, I didn't. I found myself in a lot of dangerous situations. I found myself and I I was aware that that part of myself seemed to be and I was aware that that part of myself seemed to be broken or like I just felt like all my windows were busted open Right. And I remember coming into this community and that feeling of structure and how that free floating anxiety for several for quite a while was gone.

18:02 - Sam (Host)

Yeah.

18:03 - T (Guest)

And they, they sort of, they sort of set boundaries for me, and then I'm also. I'm also like I, I can really throw myself into things. So I did like I, I made it my life and that kind of totalist thing.

18:21

Where know they provide everything that provided. That soothed me, yeah, for a while, until it no longer did, but that feeling like I had my people and I had made my decision and I had made that promise, yes, that's what it gave me and you know, I, I, I guess I needed that. I put my, I put quotes up, finger quotes, because I don't really believe that in a cosmic sense of like I needed to learn the lessons, like fuck that, I don't buy that. But yes, that provided a physical feeling of safety and comfort.

19:00 - Sam (Host)

That is such a common thing that I hear as well. That is such a common thing that I hear as well. That sense of belonging, the sense of community, but the sense of just structure, stability, security, all of those things that make us physically feel safe, it's, you know, there is in the simplest form. It's why children need boundaries, because it makes them feel safe.

19:22

They might not like them, but they need them because they create a sense of safety, but they need them because they create a sense of safety, and that's so much of what these groups provide.

19:34 - T (Guest)

Initially, and so, once that vow had been taken, what did life look like then? Well, after a few months, well, well, it's a little central house there wasn't, there was the farm land, but we lived in town in sort of a main house and as the community grew, people lived in apartments and houses nearby. It's a small town like 30 000 people, with a big university and um, life was every morning, five o'clock am, a long morning program. It was meditation, prayers and a chanting session, which in Arabic was called zikr, so it's sort of chanting the names of God, and it's very romantic, you know, and also chemically transformational, like chanting, like you know, this kind of uh, rhythmic, which is something, again, I've, I've written about and studied about how this changes you, you know. And then, and then um, seva, which is, which is another word that just came up, I just re-watched um, which one, oh, uh, not love wins, the, oh, um, I'm sorry, the rajneesh one, the, the, the woman who died. Anyway, I can't remember their names anyway, whatever they were.

21:00

Just, you know, chanting and seva meaning volunteer work, that's that was the word for, you know, selfless service. And then, within a short amount of time, we had bought this is so typical what I'm telling you we bought the cool cafe in town. So there's the cafe, the coffee shop, right, it's so fucking repeated everywhere. Okay, so, and and I, I came to work there. I worked there for 20 years. I was at the you know the vegetarian cafe, and then we opened other businesses, um and uh. Now, this is the part that I think a lot of people find interesting and also it's hard to explain, which is why it's nice to talk to other cult survivors. So the vow that I took had a few parts. Well, one of them was to be obedient and the other was similar, which was to seek his counsel in matters of life importance, and this was done in this.

22:12

This vow was taken in front of a community, it was sort of a collective you know accountability vow, and the third part was something that he called was something that he called guarding your secrets. That's not the right word. Um, there was literally a thing about secrecy, mm, and that of course, felt also romantic, kind of like we're special and we're and so and what? What I learned from, especially the wives, and is that really that means our job is to be as intimate with him as possible. Right, it's sort of like close, intimate service. You know, the most well documented that we've seen of this recently is the Keith Raniere stuff and just the way that people circle around him and that was watching the vow specifically has like holy crap, it's identical.

23:05

What I went through. So my job in my heart that I took was to not just to be intimate but to follow his guidance and to be as sort of in the and you know, in my early brain and heart about this was to be sort of as much like him as possible, to try to emulate him and to. Now here's where it gets tricky. I had never had a relationship. I hadn't had a relationship with a girl since I was in, since I was 12, 13 years old yeah, and suddenly I remember thinking.

23:41

And suddenly I remember thinking. I was not told you cannot be a gay person but, everything was divided by gender.

23:51

There was a gender binary, it's like, well, here's what the women are like and here's what the men are like, and that became more defined over time. And then there was no queerness or gayness anywhere in the group, like it wasn't represented, and that, combined with my kind of chaotic relationship with my sexuality I mean, I had never questioned that I was gay, but I've it felt I came in having it feeling chaotic and then that this was sort of the solution to that. Rather quickly, well I would say over a matter of a year or two, I started to judge my. I was starting to confuse that chaos or with my gayness.

24:36

26:15 - Sam (Host)

Yeah how do you feel about that decision now like, and how, I mean how informed do you feel like that decision was consensually for you?

26:29 - T (Guest)

it was not at all. I mean, again, you know, I think, like in all cultic environments, our, our individuality are what made us unique was erased. So so our job, our, our, our literal job, was to destroy our egos. I mean, there was a lot of that language and and we were servants and sometimes called slaves to God. And you know, the guru was the person who we practiced that with. So you know, there's a lot of Sufi, sufi-ish modified through a white guy from Peoria, because he was a white guy from Peoria, the guru, it's true, and if you don't know Peoria, it's sort of like I don't know name that Australian town. That's like the nothing town that's everyone points to when they want to show a nothing town, you know so, so, so, yeah, so this, how do I feel about that? I feel I feel very sad about it now uh, I wouldn't say regretful, because again it's um.

27:40

I mean, the main beautiful thing that came out of that is that I have a 23 year old daughter um and of course I wouldn't trade her for anything but um, but it was sad and no, we were not informed and nobody said to me dude, you're gay. Except for my friend who brought me in three years before, was like dude, what the hell? And he bailed on the whole enterprise and he confronted the guru and was like, what are you doing to my friends? You know, yeah, and he, he had, he had it, and I didn't talk to him for 20 years, but but uh, no, I did not doubt.

28:20

I believe that this was the right thing and I, you know, people who I know, who have been closeted in religious environments. They do this, that we do this thing in our brains, where we decide that we are being strong and we are committing ourselves to the path to God, to whatever by being to god, to whatever by being, by committing to our faith over our, our bodies, lusty you know desires you're denying the carnal flesh, and you're focusing on the divine and everything that is above and better and beyond yourself yeah, yeah exactly um.

29:04 - Sam (Host)

Were you then praised by other people for making that choice and that decision as well?

29:11 - T (Guest)

um, yes, and but not again, not directly, not like, yeah, you're not gay anymore, because we were all sort of like liberal, westerners, right. So there wasn't this like, yay, jesus hates gays. Like there wasn't any of that, it was, it was. It was yes, you've committed to the path. And then, through the years, the guru would, in different ways, praise me for my strength. Oh, he would, and of course that's all that ever mattered was getting getting crumbs from him. And he would even compare me to my friend who left, or he, he would. He would sort of, in different ways, subtle ways, could have taken me aside and go like you know, you're so strong. Like when he did praise me, I felt like I had made that right decision, you know. And of course, I feel bad for the woman that I married because, whoa, she was not not satisfied in our marriage oh yeah oh my god, I mean what we went through for so long, right yeah, I mean, you're talking about um.

30:30 - Sam (Host)

You know when he would speak directly to you and you know give you this subtle praise and things like that. What was it like for you whilst you were in it, when you were in his presence, like, how did that make you feel? Because a lot of what we're talking about is the emotive experience defies the logic, that, like you said at the beginning, you went in there and you were like this is weird, but I felt something, and that emotive experience often defies the logic. So how did that feel?

31:02 - T (Guest)

this is okay. This is a great segue to performance studies, because now I'm now I'm in studies and I'm writing this dissertation and I'm like I'm trying to explain what it's like to be in that environment, because you can't document it and you can't, you can't do a post exit survey. That gets to it Like sitting in that room and how complicated in all the signals are and the communications and the way that people look at him and the way that I'm trying to learn to do it right. And God, I mean it was terrifying and amazing and and I learned rather quickly to be, I mean, within a year or two he would rather intensely admonish me in different ways I hate that word admonish like like verbally abuse me or different ways, like like I don't know he knew he had me, so I became just like anybody. It was.

31:58

Being in his presence was totally, almost always terrifying. Now I'm I didn't admit that to myself, you know, I just was on edge and I have a. I'll tell you one story and, and god, when I'm, as I'm trying to write about this and even tell about it, like there's no way to get at the levels of tension, like, like you can't. This is why I think it's so funny when people are sort of like you know there's no coercion, or you. I read these scholars who are like, well, you know what's brainwashing? Or like you know these people from the outside, and it's like, well, that's because you weren't brainwashed.

32:35 - Sam (Host)

Like the island.

32:37 - T (Guest)

I don't know if you know these names, but like the Eileen Barkers of the world saying like there's no evidence for brainwashing, and I'm like, well, that's because you weren't fucking brainwashed If you were brainwashed.

32:47

You know what that feels like. So there was there was a moment where there was a one of our Sufi sort of universalist tendencies was to practice lots of different holidays. So we were Muslims but at the same time, most of us came from Christian environments. So we had, we would celebrate Christmas and in our main house we set up a big Christmas tree and we were going to have gifts and we made this big dinner and Murshid, who was the teacher we called him Murshid, which means guide or teacher in Arabic. He was coming and I'm just assuming that everyone listening to this can just feel okay. So we're getting ready for the guest. This was sort of the phrase we're sweeping and you're cleaning and you're getting ready for the guest. This was sort of a phrase we're sweeping and you're cleaning and you're you're getting ready for the powerful guy to come. Right, and it was. It was terrifying like, like the level of uh, you know fear and perfectionism in the air right and um, but sort of devotion mixed in with it. And he shows up and he says and he looks around and it's, it's, it's december, midwest america, so it's like you know snow boots and stuff. And he comes in and he says has anyone called the prayer? And in islam, you know, you call the prayer five times a day and then we do collective prayer and someone said, oh, no, nobody's done it yet. And he said, oh, so you're not ready. And so he gets his boots on, gets his coat on and leaves. Oh now, now, now. For anyone who knows this relationship, nothing, almost nothing, is worse than like somehow we're being collectively scolded in this very dramatic way, and it was horrific. So he left, and then suddenly everyone knows he left, he left, mercer left.

34:41

36:04

And finally, some brave soul says something like Murshid salam alaikum, which means peace be upon you. Someone says something like I am so sorry we were not present, we were not ready for the guest, and I'm so sorry. All I can say is that I will strive to be better. Somebody says something like that and then, one by one and he never turns around one by one, people ask for him for forgiveness.

36:37

And I remember in my brain at this point early kind of still early in the process, I remember saying I remember inside my mind, thinking, being aware that I felt scared and that I wasn't supposed to feel scared. I was supposed to only feel devotion and love. So this is what I, when it came my turn to speak, this is what I said. I said, merced, I'm so sorry. I want to confess something I noticed. I noticed that when you were coming up the walk, I felt scared and he suddenly turned to me. He suddenly turned and he goes are you going to make this about yourself right now? Fuck you, that's what he said to me, and then turned back around and it was those moments. So so you know, 10 out of 10 fraught with shame and fear, that I learned.

37:53

I learned in that moment I cannot tell the truth, I cannot, even if it means I'm nervous or I'm scared or I feel anxious or like even and to me that was still at that point, part of the process of a spiritual path is like this is scary or this is. And then I realized no, I cannot speak to that. And then, of course, and then you know, in that environment nobody comes to your aid, like nobody, nobody could turn to me. And so like, are you okay? Like no, they are only focused on him, yeah, and giving their own approval and validation from him.

38:30

And I, I have never forgotten, and I don't think my muscles have ever forgotten, how that it was like an elect, it was like lightning through me, and I stayed with him for, you know, 20 more years after that with that feeling always, that that was always possible to be, you know, destroyed like that publicly, when I was just sharing like something that I felt thought would be helpful, you know like that feeling of fear, and fear, I think, even in like the evangelical christian world, is a weird word because it's used to both incite terror and devotion, and so it comes with that duality of tone to it.

39:22 - Sam (Host)

Was that fear something that stayed like consciously present for you, or did you completely disconnect and dissociate from that as you stayed for the next 20 years?

39:37 - T (Guest)

well, I would say that I, it was embedded in me that I was, that I was, I was under threat, so I behaved under as if I were always under threat, which I was, um, but I didn't consciously think I was scared, I mean, and if I did, I judged it, you know, because I was, I was supposed to seek a devotional, intimate relationship, so I would avoid him. Especially later I would avoid him and I didn't think, oh, I'm scared of him and that's maybe not the greatest. But, like it was not conscious because I I was, it was always that pressure of, like, I'm supposed to want to seek his guidance. So, so I did whenever I could, but as, as the years grew on, it was more like checking the box. It was like, okay, I did that, oh good, like now I can avoid him for another month, but going to him and asking, you know, for advice or guidance or something that was, it became less and less possible.

40:43

Yeah, over time and I had, forgive me, I just spent some time talking to Claire McIver oh, we love Claire, and how, and and I would say one of the main things that happened in our group was that he discovered that I played the drums and when he discovered that, he went out and bought me a drum set and then we had a band, yeah, and that band actually had three different European tours, like it became something that that we had, I would say, some adventures with, but the main thing was that, um, to describe that sort of sums up, my relationship with this guru was that, um, I have a lot of musical training and I and I have a really good ear. So I I started on piano, became a drummer, but I had a great and I wrote songs for him and I had been a songwriter before and I and so at some point I want to put this onto a stage or want want to try to describe this relationship, because I'm the drummer, I hear when things are out of key, cause I have a really good ear. I know when things are out of tempo and, um, and I write songs for him. He is a guitar player who's shitty. He is a shitty guitar player and he can't hear when things are out of tune or out of key and he is not good at rhythm.

42:39

Now, the relationship is such that I have to follow everything he does and when something is not the way he wants it. It's my fault and I had that heaped on me. So there were many, many hours, compounded you know which, stored in my body somehow. But I spent hours and hours and hours trying to convince myself that he was right about everything, as I'm sitting behind the drums. I'm sitting behind the drums, I'm trying to follow him. I will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. If he changes key, if he changes tempo, I have to follow him and then turn around and be blamed for it.

43:27

And that was actually part of that was a little bit of a pride thing for me, because I was able to sort of perform for the whole community what I was able to take and endure. So that was sort of another way for me to get close to him. I'm like I'm his drummer, like what's what's more intimate than that right? And then I have, um, let's just say I have a lot of stories about how he, you know, and when I wrote songs for him, they became his. So he was, he could change them, he could make them worse, he could change the words, because they were gifts to him. So I have a lot of but these moments where I'm literally in my brain telling myself that his way must be better. Yeah, even though I know that we're out of tune or the like. So that dissonance and how kind of concentrated it was around music, oh my god.

44:24 - Sam (Host)

Anyway, that shit is that shit's fucked up and I, and it's like music is such a an emotive experience as well, which is why, you know, I've had many a conversation for people who you know were worship leaders and things like that in their church spaces and high control groups and all of that sort of thing.

44:44

Because music, you know, is at the core of who we are. It's inherently sensory, it's, you know, it's just such a powerful space to heal. But also it's a really powerful space if it's in the hands of someone who is manipulative and can be used as a weapon of control and um, and so, you know, what sounds like a very simple thing on the surface becomes very complicated and and control-based. And another example of losing yourself for someone else At what point and I am asking this question because I think a lot of people think that you know someone who leaves a cult. Something has happened, something being this one event that has happened that like got them out, but more often than not, like a hundred, hundreds of things happen to build this enormous snowball that pushes someone out.

45:46

Um, but at what point did you consciously become aware of? Oh fuck, this place is not safe. Like I can't be here right, and what were you?

45:59 - T (Guest)

46:50

I, which was, which was lockdown. So it was very. I really honestly don't know if I would have gotten out if I hadn't been in lockdown. So suddenly we're in lockdown and everything that I did every day was canceled, because I was there every day and I was the manager of the bakery and I was, I was our food coordinator.

47:12

Like I, I worked 16 hours a day for the community, you know. And so suddenly we're in lockdown and and there was this period of a week or two or three, and you know the way that I can describe it now is the first step was admitting that I felt relieved, because I wasn't supposed to feel relief. I was supposed to feel a longing for my community, but something in there was like wait, wait, I have. I think I'm happy that I don't have to go Like this. I'm happy, and that was a very hard thing to admit.

47:55 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, it was about to say like. Was that immediately followed by guilt and shame, that you felt happy about that?

48:03 - T (Guest)

Yeah, it was like you're not like that. But then it came rather quickly to me, um, and and I sat with my wife at the time and I said something to her like and this was such a scary thing to say I said, what would you think about us backing off of our community life a little bit? And she was like yes, she was totally like ready, and that's again a complicated story. But, um, anyway, over the next few weeks I'm I'm extremely resourceful, which is why dean is what I call him now, because, his name is dean.

48:45

Um he, he created a monster because I am such a researcher and I'm such a.

48:52

So within not very long I had a stack of books and I started watching the movies and I was like shit this is a yeah, and uh, and then I wrote a little thing about it and put it on medium and um, I mean, all these things happen that and I started making YouTube videos and my family got really upset because I was like this is a cult. And they were, it was, it was a little farther for them, like it was longer of a process for them.

49:24

I mean and of course, just because I was talking about this stuff doesn't mean that I was healing. I mean it was. I mean COVID was hard anyway, but I was like hardly mobile. I was, you know, barely functional. I was reading a book and sleeping for it. It was horrific. I mean, this first period of coming out was terrible.

49:45

And then, and then I do want to tell the story because it's really kind of beautiful, I think this. I mean, at some point maybe it wasn't long, like maybe June or 20 or maybe in May, my wife says, like what's going on with our relationship? And I remember sitting there and it may have been two minutes, but it felt like 15 minutes in my brain and I remember going like I remember it sort of re reloading my brain, going like I'm gay, like how did this? I mean I had been so enculturated to put that into some little fingernail and just save it. And we both knew. But I said it and I'm like here I am coming out again and we went through a divorce while in lockdown together. It was grueling. But here's the sweet story which I just love to tell. So, just because it gives hope and you know, and I I think, I think a lot of cult recovery is really just about getting your body back, you know. So it's. I mean, what else is there? You just have? We just have our bodies. But then you realize, oh, it's not the demonic hell scape or whatever.

51:08

So so there was this really cute man and this was not conscious at all, this cute man that I'd I'd known in town for 20 years and he was posting on facebook these this is so cute, I can see your smile. It's just the whole, this whole story, so cute. He was retired from the theater department here at the university and he was. He would post his hikes like every day. He would post him like hiking, and there's beautiful woods and forests around here, so, and he never posted his picture of himself ever. And this, this, this man, I'd interacted with him at several points over 20 years um, sort of theater related, whatever and I just always thought he was so cute.

51:48

And I didn't admit this to myself. I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm gonna go pursue this cute guy. That was not conscious, it was more like help, I mean, like I just left a cult, we're in lockdown. And I wrote to him on messenger and I was like, hey, can I come on one of your hikes, it's like because I'm like, I'm losing my mind, like we all were right and and then I downloaded because I'm, you know, cult survivor too much information. I was like I just got out of this cult and he knows about, he it's a small town, so he knows about the sufis and everyone does.

52:21

So I went on this hike with him and after we hiked I took my, I took my phone out, I texted him by way, I've had a crush on you for a long time and like it's, I'm still married. The whole thing was such a mess, right, and and so. So, over a period of weeks, my family, my wife, we all like in my daughter, who was 17, or she was 18 at the time she even said to me she goes, you're dating him, and I'm like, no, I'm not time. She even said to me she goes, you're dating him and I'm like, no, I'm not. Oh, yes, I am. Yeah, yeah and so and he was.

53:01

So I mean, a lot of this was arduous with at my relationship ending, but but this is the sweet part is that, um, he and I would take these hikes and we were very careful of the social distance. We were law abiding citizens. So we, we would go to his house, which was in the night next to the woods, and sit on his porch and touch feet and and let me tell you what that did to me, sam, like I remember the feeling of total joy, like the feeling of like this is what my body wants right, like the feeling of how natural and joyful and how just having the blood rush through my body and how wonderful that felt, and then, at the same time, the complete rage of having that stolen from me. When I had those moments with my partner who I'm still with, by the way, we're getting married next year, it's so great.

54:06

It's so sweet and he's just cute and we're just absolutely in love. But I was like at that point I realized I was so full of rage and I just was like fuck you.

54:19 - Sam (Host)

Yeah.

54:20 - T (Guest)

For forever tricking me that this was not, that I was not deserving of this moment. Like you, you were such a so whatever I thought was still good in the community I was like you are a lying piece of shit and any spiritual leader is. Who keeps you from that experience of being aligned with our body's desires? You know, it's like that was a deep moment for the good and for the hardness of digesting the rage and the grief, you know.

55:00 - Sam (Host)

There is always, I feel like such a duality of emotions for a really long time, every good emotion comes with a tinge of something else. Whether it be anger, rage, grief, guilt, sadness, it comes with something because yes often it just reminds you of how long it has been since you have genuinely been able to feel and been allowed weird, like it's crazy to even put the word permission or allowed in that sentence to feel joy and excitement and relief and all of those emotions.

55:36 - T (Guest)

Yeah, and all the times and I know that you experience this, this all the times you realize that normal people are fine, you're like you're just like oh my god you're.

55:44

You're saying you're so chaotic and I love you. You know, like it's like people being normal people. You're like I was lied to about them being whatever, whatever judgment I had. And then you're like people are so lovely. I mean, there's obviously not a lot of not lovely people, but yeah, people are doing their best in general and they're lovely and they're broken and that's fine, you know yeah, how do you view him now?

56:17 - Sam (Host)

how do you look back and view who he was, who he is?

56:22 - T (Guest)

just as a con artist. And and I've learned to, and, you know, completely unsurprisingly, I've learned that he had abusive sexual relationships with the women around him, which was hidden in the group. Um, he's a con artist. He has the same backstory that keith ranieri has. Like he, he sells things and then he found this way to sell this and he found a way to gather women around him to do whatever he wanted with them and to get lots of people to do all of his work for him and to give him their money, and it's just absolutely typical in that sense. And then the Sufism part just sort of cloaked it in this mysterious, you know sort of xenophobic thing fraught with cultural appropriation that spellbound a lot of you know kind of guilt-ridden middle-class US American white people to follow him, because we didn't know any better, I mean.

57:18 - Sam (Host)

I mean it's complicated, but yeah, he's he is a, a con artist, and that's that's the best way to sum that up. How do you feel about that woman that way back who, like, saw who you were and what you needed? Who?

57:38 - T (Guest)

probably was a victim turned perpetrator.

57:39

Yeah, yeah, she is the first victim. She is spectacularly good at her role and she's still here in town doing this, like she's still beautiful and sort of manifesting and shows up at different places and um, yeah, they've taken a big hit from my public whistleblowing because I have been public, I was the first person to be so and um, but they reinvent themselves. You know, they sort of do the peewee herman thing of like I meant to do that, like because I have been public I was the first person to be so but they reinvent themselves. You know, they sort of do the Pee Wee Herman thing of like I meant to do that Like they're just here, we are, it's great, everything's great, everything's great. So they will never stop doing that, and I think part of the healing process for me recently has been kind of like, oh, I may never see him come down, so. So let me very gradually, as I'm able to sort of shift my attention, um, towards things that I can build and um, can I talk about the show now?

58:37

yes, please please do it, because the whole reason I'm talking to you, sam, was because I created performance art and it was sort of I mean, it's a long story to tell the whole thing, but let's just say that I thought I was going to learn to kind of write pop songs again, or a little. I thought I was going to write, I wanted my music back and I kept trying and I and then I would end up making like noise and like I wanted to break things and I wanted to, like I wanted to tell the story, but I couldn't do it in words yeah so I developed this thing and I didn't believe me, I did not know I was going to perform it in Melbourne.

59:21

So I created this thing and it was like it was like this I, it's an hour long and it's it's a video, audio thing. That's a lot of noise and I wanted to tell the story of being in a cult, but I, but I wanted to do it with movement and it's not the stories. So it's this, it's this kind of cacophonous rhythmic thing and what happens is one minute of the show is one year of my life, and so from minute 29 to minute 53 of this performance, I get into this very, very hard to watch and hard to do sort of rhythm which echoes the echoes the, the chanting that we used to do in the morning and it's very cathartic and kind of ritualistic. And the people who watched, people who came to see me perform this it's called cult piece, which is sort of a Yoko Ono reference, but it's I, I the people who came to saw it, were like that was so long and difficult and hard to watch and I'm like, well, that, yes, that was why I did that, because, yeah, like that's the point is like it went on and on and on and never changed. And so I did this show and I did it three times and it was really I really liked how it felt, because it didn't.

I didn't want to be a pompous performance artist, so, like I told, like I'm I have a little introduction before and I have a talk after where I'm like this is what I'm doing, like it's not trying to be. If you don't get it, it's fine. Like I'm not trying to be pretentious and weird, I just tried I'm trying to tell the story and I, and so I tried to be. If you don't get it, it's fine. Like I'm not trying to be pretentious and weird, I just tried I'm trying to tell the story and I. And so I tried to be really like transparent about the whole thing.

And then, and then, uh, I got this opportunity. There is there was a conference that came across in my inbox and it's it's called critical autoethnography and it's sort of academic, but it's sort of about people in academia telling stories about their lives and it's. It was in Melbourne and I'm like I don't really wow, okay. So I just I just threw an application in, not thinking that this, and they accepted it, and I went to my partner and I was like oh, we could never do this Right's like I don't know why don't we look into it?

and it's like, okay, wow, um, I have to get three weeks off in the middle of semester. But then things kept falling into place. So I, he and I were gonna just be tourists, because going to australia as tourists is pretty freaking cool. I've never been there and I want to go and meet you people. So then I thought, well, god, I want to. This is an academic conference. It's closed off. I would like to share this with other cult survivors of different kinds.

So I start reaching out to people on Facebook and I I mean, I know Janja Lalic and these different people. So I kind of like try to network. And then I'm looking at venues in Melbourne and I found out that the Fringe Festival is going out at the same time and I'm kind of like, oh, my God, yikes, that's terrifying. Let me. So I did the application and and you and you have to find your own venue. It was. It seemed impossible because I'm like I'm, I don't know what to do. So I I sent a clip and some things about my show to like 10 different venues and the motley bauhaus called me and said we're, your show looks really cool and we had a back and forth and they're like we'd like to book you for seven nights and I go what?

are you out of your mind?

fucking crazy and forgive me I shouldn't use crazy, um, anyway, wild. I didn't know what to do and so we just so I'm doing it, and I made posters and and then I the reason that we're talking is because I'm reaching out. I reached out to people sort of like hey, can I, can I let people know that I'm going to be here doing this? And then I'd like for people to come and see what I did, because I think you'll relate to it and I think that it would provide, it might provide openings for some people creatively like yeah, I don't know, like I found this way of telling the story without telling it and I've and I found a and and I'm really and it's, it's healing for me really, and it's, it's healing for me, you know, like it's been super, super healing for me. And if and I'm preparing myself emotionally for like if there's nobody there, I'm just going to give it my all anyway, because it's for me.

It's for me, you know, it's like this is what we do when we get out of these environments is like I get to have agency. You know I get to have agency. You know I get to, and especially musically, it's like I get to make these dissonant notes if I want to, like, fuck you, like, like, don't tell me what I can sound like. I can sound like a mess if I want to, you know yeah, I mean I was.

I was going to ask you know what it has been like for you as a healing modality almost, because it's not just reclaiming, you know, the creative parts of you that were, you know, warped and manipulated as part of the group, but just reclaiming you as yourself and, as you know, all of the now different parts of you in a space where sometimes words are hard to quantify and we don't always have language to describe an experience. And so you know how has it been like? What's the impact been for you personally creating this?

Well, first of all, I was supported. I found myself in this department at the university of people who were so supportive of me and I've been given really great encouragement. But the big, I think it's helped me start to trust myself again, because by the time I left the cult I had really been convinced that I was just damaged.

Yeah.

And you know, selfish and all the things that I believed about myself and what's happened with this show and actually, I have to say, my interactions with people at the Melbourne Fringe have been so supportive and so thoughtful and this connects with the work that Claire is doing, the work that's going on. Whatever is happening in Victoria is some of the most, maybe the most, progressively thought out Like. I just read their document that they created. It is astounding, yeah.

Okay, yeah, it's wildly good yeah.

It is astonishing that it exists, and so it's. It's inspiring because we well, okay, just let me just say that what has come out of my experience with Melbourne is that one of the things that happened is that they work really hard on accessibility. So there's a person who connects with every single performer and asks them about different possibilities for making their show accessible. And I ticked every box, like, yes, I want people who, who can't see in my show. Yes, I want to do low sensory shows. Yes, I want like there were these things I'd never heard of. Like, oh, people can come in and like touch what I'm doing. Or people can, people can, uh, we can have masks, masks encouraged to shows Like I. I just realized it helped me to realize that I want my, this performance to be completely accessible, even if that means I have to change what I'm doing. And and I didn't know that that was unusual.

So when I had a zoom session with this woman, millie, she said God, you're so generous with your work. And I I'm like wait, I am, because I thought that I was a selfish, self-centered asshole for 23 years. And you're telling me that I was a selfish, self-centered asshole for 23 years and you're telling me that I'm not. Like, can I trust myself that I really am in this, that I want people to get up and leave in the middle if they need to? I want people to.

And I realize that a lot of performers they sort of want to keep things secret and mysterious, and it's like no, I, I will tell you everything that's happening. I will give you the video beforehand. It's on YouTube. Like I want everyone to know what they need to know in order to feel safe and comfortable in this room. And she responded to me like wow, that's cool and I go, oh, it is. And she responded to me like wow, that's cool and I go, oh, it is, you know I. And so that so to me to answer your question, like reclaiming that survivors doing really important work all over the world and not trying to, I don't know. Like I want to have a sincere, survivor-centered, open, supportive, consent-oriented. I want to do that with people, yeah, and that is healing Right.

Absolutely. And also, as you're talking, you know the people who have had their consent and safety taken away typically understand the value of giving consent and safety back to other people.

Yes.

Especially when engaging with emotive content. Right. Like it's, you know it's content that is going to. It's not logical, it's not cognitive, it's emotive, it lives in you and so it's where it's going to. It's not logical, it's not cognitive, it's emotive, it lives in you and so it's where it's going to speak to them. So consent is, and safety is such a key part of that. It's um, it's unsurprising to me that that would be, you know, important to you as somebody who had had those things taken away from you.

That is for people so how do you see and this is a question that I ask most people on the podcast, because I think I get the most varied answers with this question but how do you see, or what's your relationship with spirituality now?

that's. That's one of the questions that um came up when I I listened to your podcast.

I've forgotten his name, joel joel, yes so, joel, he listened to the and buy that whole thing, okay. So so, uh, this is what was interesting. You asked him and forgive me I'm paraphrasing, but towards the end you asked something like I mean, I think it was the same question, maybe it was. And you know, I went to seminary. I was a Muslim, I was I don't know a believer or a practitioner or whatever for all these years, and he said something like again, joel, forgive me for paraphrasing, but something about how, being connected to a long kind of narrative arc that transcends time and meaning, as Jesus does, sort of becoming feeling connected to that. I think he said something like it's really cool, like he said this is important to him and like he enjoys that right, and so I remember I listened to that moment and I thought you know what I just want to say it's also kind of cool to not have that.

Yes, this is why I love this question question because I get the most varied answers, right yeah, because, like I don't and I said that to my partner today, like I I actually described before I came on I was, we were sitting for dinner and I I just said I described this moment and he said what do you think of the universe? And I was like I think it's mysterious and wild and I think that when I die it's all over and and I think that to me it now it means that it means that there is nothing in any way superior in my belief system about the human species or any kind of mythological anything. It's sort of like, you know, we don't understand what dolphins say to each other, we don't understand how roots root, we don't, and we think ourselves so important and I feel free from that need to feel connected to a thing you know, and that is for me. I don't ever want to imply that someone should let go of their need for that and that somehow it's more liberating, and I'm that is not, but for me, not having that is like mysteriously cool and impossible to answer.

It's like here we are and I'm very sort of morose in the sense of like I believe that here, in a second, I'll be facing my death. It'll be like you. I believe that here, in a second, I'll be facing my death. It'll be like you know, when that moment comes, I'll be like, wow, it happened so fast. Time is sort of meaningless and I don't think that there needs to be a creator being Um, and I think that, and I don't think I have a purpose or a lesson to learn.

But I think I want to be really nice to people because, because I like it and I like people and I want to help and I hope that in the next, for the rest of my life, I can help people and my through my own efforts, help people find their own consent and their own limits and what they need to say before they go. Yeah, and maybe we can. You know, fight fascism and dogma and coercion and manipulation is, and so yeah, yeah believe anything that is a far more eloquent um way to answer.

Um. I had somebody on another podcast ask me about how I view spirituality and I'm like most of the most days, I have no fucking idea and at the same time I also don't really care that I don't know exactly, I don't care.

it's far more beautiful and eloquent than mine is unusually in that space. But I mean the other like more very real reason I like to ask this question is because I like listeners to realize that wherever they land is okay If they still want to stay where they have been planted or where they have chosen for themselves, with whatever faith, origin it is, or spirituality, space it is. That's okay. And if you want to burn it all down and never go back, that's also okay. Yes, and everything in between um yes and so you know, I think it's.

That's the sort of like the, the non-sarcastic, cynical answer as to why I like to ask that question, um, but it is just allowing you know. You sort of said you don't want anybody to feel like they need to disconnect from that, and I think that you know the freedom to land wherever you choose to land is is the beauty in that um so we get to choose yeah, yeah, choice is a pretty nice powerful thing, hey it is a really the most important thing absolutely is anything more important than autonomy?

I don't know yeah, um, I like to finish these episodes with some encouragement for people listening, and I usually um direct it more so to to the person that I'm speaking to. And so what would you say to somebody who has either um chosen to leave a cult or who has just been potentially kicked out, but they have just left the space that they've spent decades or years in? What would you say to?

them. Okay, One of the one of a friend of mine who's a therapist. One of the first things he said to me is he goes, you're going to do this wrong and that means that no matter how you go about it, it's going to be messy. You're going to do things you didn't want to do. It's just really hard work. So some people choose to hide for 10 years. Some people get right onto a podcast and blast their group.

Yeah, there is not a right thing. So do what you need to do to make yourself the most comfortable, because your safety and autonomy is the most important thing, yeah. So there is not, in other words, you're going to do it. Wrong means there's not a right way to do it.

Which means failure doesn't come into it.

Yes, yeah, there's no wrong way to do it and it's brutal and it takes a while. Yeah, I love that. Thank you for joining me and I will have everything about the fringe festival in my show notes for my Melbourne listeners, um, and I will pop it all over social media as well and on our collective page as well. But if you are in Melbourne or around Melbourne, please get there, because I think it, I think I mean, and also there is a lot of conversation about cults and fringe groups with the Victorian inquiry and all of that sort of thing, and so I think it'll just be really powerful for people to engage in your content, I think. So all of the links and stuff will be in the show notes for ease of access.

But thank you so much for joining me.

And now it's so funny as a typical cult survivor now I feel, and I feel like all the shame and guilt that I made that all about myself, even though I was talking about myself. Isn't that funny.

I have to go like okay, wait, I just talked about myself too much no, I could have kept talking and kept asking questions um, so I love that, but thank you so much for not just joining me but for sharing so openly and vulnerably about a space that I think is just not talked about enough, and talking about it in a really um, just a really beautiful, not um. You know there's there's anger there, but it's not bitter, cynical rage that just people can't engage with, and so I think the way we talk about this matters, and so I appreciate it.

Thank you, Sam. I really appreciate the space. Thank you.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.