Can We Eliminate Food Waste

Or are we just managing a system designed to waste

Canada produces more than enough food to feed everyone, yet millions remain food insecure while enormous volumes of perfectly good food are lost. In this conversation, Lori Nikkel, CEO of Second Harvest, reframes the issue away from scarcity and toward systems failure—how food is produced, priced, moved, and ultimately left behind.

What emerges is a picture of food rescue not as charity, but as infrastructure. Second Harvest operates a parallel supply chain, using data, logistics, and coordination to redirect surplus food to communities across the country. It is precise, efficient, and increasingly scalable. And yet, its very success raises a harder question: if we can move this much food, why does the need persist?

Lori draws a clear line between feeding people and solving food insecurity. Redistribution can address immediate need, but it does not resolve the structural conditions—poverty, policy gaps, market incentives—that produce both waste and hunger at the same time. The absence of a national strategy on food waste in Canada only deepens that contradiction.

This episode sits in that tension. It explores what becomes possible when waste is made visible and measurable, and what remains unchanged even as systems improve. The result is not a simple answer to the question of elimination, but a clearer understanding of what that question demands.

Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.

Welcome to the Future Herd.

This episode with Lori Nikkel is really kind of special, and I say this in no

small part because of the access that Lori has had, the perspective, the insight

that she brings to this conversation, and it's without peer, without equal.

And I say this because there are lots of leaders who have confidence, who have

skills, who have opportunity, but Lori in particular has a perspective that

I think is both powerful and unique.

There are very few people who get to see our food system

from the positions and the.

The perspectives that Lori has, and this has afforded a kind of

literacy, a kind of understanding that I think is quite unique.

On the one hand it, it's a high advanced literacy, a kind of

intellectual understanding of not only where our food comes from,

but more importantly where it goes.

But it's also a practical understanding.

It's a familiarity with the infrastructure, both that Second

Harvest is building, but also the infrastructure that we as a society

need, not just to make sure that we don't waste any food, but also to

make sure that nobody goes hungry.

And this puts Lori in a very unique position, both, uh, the ability to imagine

a solution and the responsibility and capability to actually implement it.

And that's where this particular conversation foreshadows perhaps,

uh, uh, a, a looming food security crisis, but more importantly,

a food security strategy.

That actually starts to look at not only reducing our food waste, but changing

the way our entire food system works.

And I think that's why this conversation is not just inspiring, but affords

those of us listening to it, a kind of knowledge, a kind of literacy

that, uh, should be more widespread.

Now before we get into the episode, I do wanna mention a new pilot project that

we've launched here at The Future Herd.

It is a website called commons.thefutureherd.ca,

and you can find a link to it on our main website.

And we're using it as a way to not only add audience interaction, but to try to

find a new way of finding common ground.

Of looking for solutions, of talking about policy, of negotiating perceptions.

So it's kind of the iteration of , what might be the

comment section or the forums.

But we're gonna focus on topics that are relevant to this podcast and

relevant to our AgriFood system, beginning with food security.

So as you're listening to this podcast, open up our website,

commons dot the future herd.ca, and share your views on food security.

Alright, let's go.

Listen to Lori.

Welcome to The Future Herd.

What does the future mean to you?

A really tough question right now that, uh, I honestly, I, I

don't think I can answer it adequately.

I am feeling very positive and hopeful, I'll tell you that about a lot of things.

So if I can just kind of focus on what does my future

hold, not the global future.

Uh, for Second Harvest.

I mean, we are.

We're gonna continue to try to eliminate and minimise food waste as much as

possible across this country, and that is our goal is to close our business in

Right on.

Right on that.

That's actually an excellent answer.

It is meant to be a difficult question to kinda, you know, get

us started, uh, in a manner that is very, uh, uh, momentum building, but.

I also wanna start by acknowledging an interview you recently did with

our friends at capi, uh, who are kind of a, a sibling organisation of

ours in the sense that I wanna build upon that and, and kind of encourage

listeners to maybe even stop now.

Go listen to that episode and return.

But you know, there was one question, one insight I got from that interview that I

wanted to throw at you right at the start before we talk about Second Harvest and

the larger sectoral issues, which is what is it about working in the service sector,

whether in a restaurant or in a bar, or a similar kind of client facing experience.

The leaders I've met who have that as kind of their lore, their origin story.

They tend to have exceptional abilities that you don't always see in other leader.

So I'm curious if you could gimme some insight into the value of having

that as part of one's uh, repertoire.

I like, I really believe all per, all people should work

in service when they're younger.

Like service being like retail or, or bars or, you know, uh, anything

that is public facing because.

Unless you do that, you have a very narrow scope of what the world is.

But once you start doing that, you will encounter so many personalities, so many

different, um, styles, and your job is to figure out how to make them happy.

And that's it.

And so it's like I'm come from the bar and restaurant industry, and that is

a very, very fluid, very busy, very, you know, um, responsive and all of

it with a smile on your face because you know you're working for tips.

So you, your job is to make sure everybody's having

the best experience ever.

And I think that's just so good for life lessons of knowing,

like, I've got just sat 12 tables.

I'm still gonna figure out how to get what they need in the best way possible.

And often that's just about managing your personality to

suit whoever you're dealing with.

And that's just, I think everybody should have that skill to some extent it

And I think there's an inherent empathy, a a kind of human

connection that to your point, you, you.

By necessity have to develop and foster And, and that kind of leads me to the

first question I wanted to throw at you, which again, it, it, it precludes

us talking about the organisational stuff, but what are the through lines of

our conversations around food security and in particular food insecurity

that keeps coming up is dignity.

Insecurity that

the role, uh, of dignity as a focus, as almost a design principle.

And I bring it up now because I was thinking about that when you were talking

about the value of being involved in the service industry in that I think you kind

of centre that sense of dignity to the user experience, the customer experience.

So I, I'd love, you know, to start off on that kind of blue

sky, big picture sense of.

Given the, the incredible experience you've had, the journeys you, you've

been able, the experiences, the people you've met in the sector.

Where do we stand when it comes to, uh, ensuring that dignity is central to the

way in which we think of food, the way in which we think of hunger, and the way

in which we think of food security as a.

I mean, I think most people that work in this sector, I, and I,

I'm gonna say all people because I've yet to come across anybody that isn't,

that comes from that space, right?

Of compassion and empathetic and not sympathetic, right?

Like, if you're coming in sympathetically, that means you are, uh, have already

positioned yourself as better than.

And so I think the whole, the sector as a whole is, we're all just trying

to do the right thing because.

This can happen to everybody and not everybody.

If you're in the top, like 1% of billionaires, but you have no idea who is

struggling with food insecurity right now.

Like you have.

No, everybody thinks they have this Id idyllic of, not idyllic, but like

this idea of this is the person, it's intense city, or it's the person

asking for money on the street.

It is not, or it's not even the person staying in the food bank.

Right.

Like one of the things that I was food insecure, but my children were food

insecure and we never went to a food bank.

I, I, that's not fair.

I went once and they were wonderful, but I'm like.

There was a space in my brain that I just couldn't like believe my life was here.

Like what has happened to my life.

I never thought this would happen to me, so I accessed food in a very different

way through the Child Nutrition programme and working In Child Nutrition, and I

think by providing spaces where people can access food, where it's not an automatic,

you're getting this, you're here because of the food really core to what.

Our sector does.

Right?

So we did, um, a mapping a few years ago to find out where is everybody

accessing food across the country.

We know that the food bank network has about 5,500 but there's

way more 61,000 places, right?

Like 61,000 places people are accessing food and they might be

coming in for addiction treatment or mental health treatment, or

afterschool programmes or school.

But the reason they're coming in is not food, even though often

the reason they're coming is food, but it doesn't look like that.

I think that's really important is meeting people where they are.

Because all that will happen is if you don't, then they won't go.

And then, then what, right?

Like we know that having access to healthy food is good for health.

It's good for educational outcomes, it's important for economic stability.

It's not just giving someone food.

There's a huge systemic piece behind it all that I think

we lose sight of sometimes.

So I mean that's just core to how I think charities in general operate.

We are empathetic people often, A lot of us have been there.

We understand it.

those who have it really try hard to understand it by immersing themselves

in those kind of situations.

So, and I don't think that's just true for the charitable sector.

To be fair, I think everybody.

They start good and, and stuff happens and sometimes, you know, they stray, but

I believe everybody has it in them to be compassionate and helpful and wonderful.

And then, you know, just

Well, and to your point, I would love to spend a a bit of time

unpacking those contact points, the diversity of places that people interact

with, with these kinds of services, especially given Second Harvest,

enabling role as infrastructure.

But I, I, I wanna tease out something you kind of implicitly inferred there,

which is this sense of unity, which I've always, as I'm a relative newcomer

to this sector in the sense that my background's kind of in technology and

there is a lot of, uh, implicit unity.

You talked about it in terms of people really wanting to do

this, the empathy that's there.

But I also see unity around food waste and food waste diversion in that I

don't think there's anyone in the industry who are like, yeah, it's good

and we should do nothing about it.

Right.

And, and, and you could correct me if I'm wrong.

It it excellent, excellent.

Because it, it strikes me that it's more an issue of what do

we do and how do we handle it.

Well, again, this is where your unique vantage point is

able to correct my, my cliche.

A, where is that disunity now that you're bringing it up, but B, where is then that

commonality when, when dealing with the issue of food waste and waste diversion.

So I will agree with you that nobody produces food, manufactures

food, you know, sells food, buys food with the intent of wasting it.

I a hundred percent agree that's nobody starting at that space.

said that, we don't have $58 billion worth of avoidable food

loss if people are actually.

Unified and dealing with it.

So ta-da.

I mean, be fair, in 2019 when we first did the research, it was 58% of all

food, all food produced for Canadians.

58% was lost or wasted.

That is a ridiculous number, but nobody was talking about it, kind

of the cost of doing business and it just wasn't, there was no light on it.

It just wasn't a thing.

It was just, this is business and that's how business operates.

So say in the last like six or seven years.

We're seeing a huge shift, right?

Like people are thinking about it at home.

Industry is thinking about it.

We did the research again last year.

58% went down to 46.5%.

Fantastic.

Still a terrible number.

Really like it's almost half.

What was concerning was there was more avoidable, which is edible stuff that we

should all be eating and, and so where the lack of unity is, is a, as a country, we

don't have a national food waste strategy.

Other countries do and then they can tie all these things and you're

watching their waste decrease.

Well, you have to have a system in place.

We do have a system in place.

It's a bad system where we, we are great at producing food for Canadians.

We are terrible at getting them to eat it.

So what is that system that we have to implement across industry,

across government, so that we're all doing harmonising things?

So we are measuring it.

Like for me it's kind of, it sounds simple.

I know it's complicated, but it's not really, we all have

to measure it the same way.

There has to be a standardisation of how we are managing food waste.

So like first we have to measure it, set a goal, hit the goal, that

would tremendously impact the amount of food that was being wasted.

And so I am a vice chair of Canadian Standards Association.

We do have a new.

Standard that we've developed.

We've also, I'm also the Canadian delegate for, uh, iso.

And so there's this new food waste management system that

this was the final year.

Now it's going to ISO for final approvals and all that, so that big

food will pick up, right, because they're gonna tie it into their food.

Um, safety, we made it very close to food safety, so it's not like implementing

a brand new thing, like there's.

To it.

But that's good for global, big, so good for mid small because,

and that's what we're made up in Canada, a lot of mid small.

So there has to be some thoughtful, uh, policy and not regulations.

I don't like regulations, but some kind of policy or framework that we're all working

Right on and, and.

I, I, I, you raised a bunch of important points that, that

I want to tease outta there.

Perhaps most important is getting people to change their perception of what is okay

to eat and, and changing their psychology around the food that's available because,

uh, that does strike me as both low hanging fruit, but also a very big

challenge, uh, uh, when it comes to how the cultural dynamics of what people eat.

But before we go there, still within this policy realm, uh, uh, I, I, I, I'm my,

again, I'm getting so excited listening to you because I'm, I'm understanding

the potential and, and not just on the standards piece, which I agree

with you wholeheartedly, but around the framework around enabling both a

kind of national strategy, but to your point, empowering the smaller actors.

The smaller players, whether on the producer side or

even on the food bank side.

I, I'd love for you to.

To spitball Blue Sky.

Well, what are some initiatives, programmes, if we had the resources,

if, if, you know, WW we had the, the right infrastructure in place

beyond just what Second Harvest is doing, what would that look like?

Like what would the, the, the scenarios or the policies that,

that you'd love to see happen?

You know, give us some dreams here.

Give us some targets, uh, to shoot for.

Well, first I'm gonna separate two things because

supporting people with food is an outcome of managing food waste.

is what we're gonna do with the food is feed people that does not.

In any way stop people from being food insecure systematically or sustainably.

It is providing a food.

So let's take those two apart.

There are two very different things.

And so food security, we need to work on poverty reduction.

How do we make sure people have enough money in their pockets?

So that's wage policy and ODSP policy, and there's a lot to unpack there.

Not my space.

Food banks are doing great.

Great job at supporting people, but also doing great at advocating

for those kind of policies.

And we a hundred percent support.

So we need to separate these two as thinking, well, this will solve that Uhuh.

What we need to do is manage the food waste, minimise it.

There's always gonna be some that's just a fact of life, but

it doesn't have to be this amount.

And ultimately, that's what I said earlier.

I'm like ultimately is to close Second Harvest.

Or maybe not close us, but to maybe change what we do, right?

Like we solved this problem, so.

What else are we gonna do, kind of thing.

That's really the goal.

And so that means there's a, there's a, the first piece is

always just what's the framework?

How do we get everybody on board?

And that means you have to speak to industry, like industry has to be a

big part of this conversation about what's already happening, can happen.

And I'm gonna give you a really good, uh, example of that.

Best Before dates account for 23% of all avoidable food loss.

And that's about $13 billion, which is.

A best before date so misunderstood in this country.

Misunderstood in every country.

So I'm not even, it's not even Canadian.

Like it's just misunderstood except for we are behind in Canada.

'cause we have a best before date where other countries that have food

waste strategies, they tie best before date to that food waste strategy.

And so they'll have Best Before.

And used by Best before is about peak freshness used by still

not about safety, but like, eh.

Just a better day.

We know that a lot of food that we're throwing away,

uh, we would be able to eat.

And after the zombie apocalypse, right?

Like, isn't that not just the Twinkies?

Right?

It's the dried beans.

It's a dried rice, it's a dried pasta.

It's a dry, like, there's a lot of dried food.

There's a lot of canned food that we are fine with.

So just for everybody's edification, only five foods expire in Canada.

Don't eat them after the expire date.

It's about the nutritional compliment of that food baby formula.

Meal replacements and protein bars, your baby needs nutrients.

If I need a meal replacement, I need the nutrients.

If I'm running a race and I need that caloric intake to be what it is, I

need that other ones prescription only.

Don't worry about it.

You can't even buy it in a grocery store.

Five foods that expire.

We have regulation around if a best before date is required on food

that has a 90 day shelf life or less dairy, you know, perishable foods.

Fine.

We'll leave those alone.

I mean, I think they're a bit conservative, but peace man.

Then we have this huge amount of food not require a best before date.

They're voluntary.

They're incredibly conservative.

the good news.

We're working with all the major retailers, retail Council of Canada,

with a number of manufacturers on how do we manage this better?

Can we remove some, like we work with food scientists as well to say, okay,

what is the outcome if you do this right?

Like they're not on just.

On, like, there are some reasons behind it, so I shouldn't

be so, uh, with my language.

But why, like, is there some ingredient that you should

just take out of it, right?

Like is salt should not, in my opinion, have a best before date,

but I've been argued with because of an ingredient that they add.

I'm like, well, I'll take it out.

That's just me being silly.

There's of them though, that they're like, okay, first it

was like, let's take 'em off.

And then we all got together and they're like, okay, if we can't take them off,

how do we evolve the system so at least it's more appropriate to the food?

So I think that's where we're gonna land and I'm, I'm thrilled, right?

Like

Both of.

the first step is always the hardest and the best step because then

at least you're moving in a direction.

And so nobody's disagreeing with that.

Like major retail is all involved.

Like nobody, everybody wants to do this.

So then the challenge becomes, okay, we're gonna do this.

Consumers are not gonna understand this and we're gonna get a lot of

complaints, like a hundred percent agreed.

We, we have really misled consumers in this country and we assume

that this best before data is only throwing things at the end

Something.

it's right up the supply chain.

Like it's a manufacturers, we'll get call for 200 skids of tomatoes

or tomato sauce or whatever.

That's where we lose most of our food.

So then, okay, if all grocery can get involved and, and is

interested, and they are, let's do a consumer campaign, store level.

It's one of the last places everybody congregates, Like if you're trying to

get a message out, there's just way too many, there's too much content.

It's hard to get a message out to the masses.

Well, if you all run the same campaign in all the grocery stores and like

online grocery shopping, then the message is there, you know, you'd

have to do it for a couple years.

For sure, but at least you're all kind of row in the same direction.

I think doing that will have a tremendous impact because then what?

Then you can move that needle along around best four days.

So then we're like, okay, so we have it solved it, but we've

definitely moved it in the

I suspect I'm gonna be responding to a lot

of your answers with Right on.

Uh, if only because this is the kind of stuff that, that I've been

pining for, for quite some time.

But l let me throw you a kind of advanced follow up there.

It strikes me that, that.

The user literacy, the eater literacy is a key linchpin here for any kind of success.

How do we incentivize the private sector to take the lead on that?

Because on the one hand I can see the clear benefit to them.

Go ahead.

Like I, that's what I'm saying.

Industry and retail are taking the lead on this.

I mean, second Harvest started this campaign.

Everybody got on board.

So that's the beauty.

You don't have to incentivize

mean, but gimme an example.

'cause.

So now it's a matter

I, I, I say this only because I'm not seeing it, and, and I

am, you know, in my own modest way of a fairly attentive food researcher part of

what you're describing, certainly from the standards level, I'm, I'm kind of

assuming is happening behind the scenes, especially to your point about removing

an extraneous ingredient in salt, that it would radically extend the shelf life.

But what I'm still not seeing the kind of literacy campaigns

that I think are necessary.

And again, we could just stick to the best before stuff like you

saying that there's only five foods.

That true.

Like not only is that incredibly radical from where I'm coming

from, but it's powerful.

Like it's a reflection of the confidence you have.

In the food system and the knowledge that you've acquired as kind of part

of your profession, you may take that for granted, but those of us here

in the cheap seeds, we're like, wow.

Preach sister.

'cause it's radical compared to how the culture currently sees its food.

Well, please correct me again if you think I'm wrong.

You are not wrong.

I'm saying 'cause it hasn't happened yet.

What has happened is the conversations, to your point, the scenes are happening.

And so that's huge movement than even two years ago, right?

Or three years ago that we are making a huge amount of pro progress

now to build out that campaign.

It's probably gonna take another year or two to be fair.

you know, when you're working with a huge number of organisations and

industry, nothing really moves that fast.

Um, 'cause there's risk.

And so we all have to mitigate whatever risks that we think

that we have to manage.

And so that's happening.

So I'm just saying like, yes, you don't see it yet, it is

happening behind the scenes.

Like there will be, and that's best before dates only to be fair expiry dates.

I mean that is, there has to be some kind of personal accountability

in my opinion too, right?

Like I get we're all busy and we don't know.

not like a hard Google search.

So, so you, if you, if it really matters to you, if it doesn't really matter

to you, then, you know, have at it.

But CFIA does a really good job of, of, um, building awareness there

except for who's really following CFIA.

So they had a great campaign, but again, I think that goes back to is where's the

and, and.

right?

And so I think part of that campaign would be, these are the parts that

And, and unfortunately, and, and I say unfortunately partly

'cause I'm a big believer in small D democracy, uh, A-C-F-I-A has been facing

some legitimacy challenges, particularly from farmers around traceability issues.

It's kind of.

Compounded or complicated by conspiracy and disinformation

stuff from social media.

But, but you said something I think really interesting and, and

that's why I wanted to preface by saying I'm, I'm a fan of C-C-F-I-A.

I am a fan of regulation.

Is there, is there a danger that we focus on safety at the expense of hunger?

Is there a danger that, to your point about personal responsibility,

rather than focusing on literacy and informing the public, we

kind of err on the side of safe.

Regulations that then inadvertently create food waste or perhaps

disincentivize the reduction of waste.

I'm kind of rambling as I try to form this question, but do, do you get what

I'm, where I'm trying to go with this?

I think.

I think so.

But hey man, we are known globally for the food, our safety, and so

I'm not ever going to advocate not to have safe food, period.

The end, yeah, there are often unintended outcomes for almost everything.

And so instead of saying, let.

You know, move the safety for the benefit of this?

No, no, no, no.

You look at the system.

Where's the system breaking down?

We're always gonna make sure that that food is safe.

That's one of the reasons I love this country, is because we have safe food.

But if there's a system breakdown, let's fix that piece of it.

Let's not just look at it all and say, well, 'cause of this, this is happening.

Well, it's a small part of the chain.

Let's figure out what the small part of the chain is.

it.

I, and also we export a lot of food and it's really important

for our economy to do that.

So again, one of the reasons that we can do that is because

we have very, very safe food and regulation in place to keep it safe.

I'm not, to be fair, I'm not on the ins and outs of what's happening with

the farmers and CFIA right now, so I can't speak to it 'cause I have

no idea what you're talking about.

And maybe there is some legitimacy to whatever that is.

I don't know.

But that means to me, just look deeper at the problem and see where you can.

you can mitigate it without, without creating more risk of unsafe

and lemme try to create a. A compounded question here that,

that connects a whole bunch of points that, that you've brought

up in, in our conversation today.

And let me start by saying, I think the most credible leaders are the ones

who want to make themselves obsolete.

Who, you know, rather than seek power for power's sake, recognise that the

organisation they're building, the mandate they have is designed to, you know,

become obsolete to solve the problem and evolve and become something else.

A problem.

Um.

But with that said, it, it strikes me we have a kind of paradox where, on

the one hand, certainly the agriculture sector really wants to scale, really

wants to focus on more exports.

A big national policy is around more processing and increasing Canada's

food processing capabilities.

And it strikes me that if we focus on that growth without implementing

the kind of strategy or for.

Framework that you're describing, we could actually make the conditions for food

waste worse before we have an opportunity to actually try and make them better.

What role then does an organisation, uh, like Second Harvest, let alone

the diverse, smaller organisation that are then connected to you

to help distribute all this food?

W. They play within this changing dynamic and, and maybe this is a question of

scarce resources or resource allocation, but it's also me looking to you as a

leader saying, you know, what do we have to watch out when all this talk about

growth happens to make sure that we don't lose sight of the need for this framework

and the need to address a, a food waste.

Wow, you have just set me up for the best answer.

Canada is working on a food security strategy right now, and, uh, pillars

inside of that are food waste.

So like this again, is something that's happening.

We, we, they understand the importance and it's not just one ministry.

Even though some of it sits, a lot of it sits under egg.

It's multiple ministries because they understand that there are other.

Consequences to things.

So this is already happening.

Um, so we should have a food waste strategy in the next couple of months.

And food waste is a big part of it.

'cause they don't wanna make those mistakes, right?

But

Okay.

it's are moving fast.

I'm not gonna disagree with that.

Sometimes you're gonna break things when you move fast, but at least you're moving

and take the risk and move because.

When you make the mistake, at least you, made the mistake and you fix it, and then

you, you're better for it in the end.

So let's not look for perfect.

Like, let's not, look for good, let's look for good and don't

let perfect be the enemy of

And with that in mind, you know, sticking to the

hypothetical in that, you know, neither of us know for certain what

the details o of this strategy will be, let alone how it's implemented.

But a, a give me a, an opportunity on a scenario level to imagine.

You know, not in the utopian, but in the hopeful, optimistic side,

how this will impact both kind of end users, but also those small

organisations that you keep mentioning.

And, and I say this selfishly 'cause that's something I'm gonna be pursuing

in future episodes is, is really trying to understand some of those

kind of a, a frontline, you know, where the, the contact points are.

But gimme your ideal scenario.

Like if, if everything worked out the way you wanted, what would

that end user experience be?

So that w we, we have a metric, we get a sense of where we should

be going so that we, we don't lose sight of that potential target.

Sure.

I mean, a lot of the times we just don't know what we don't know.

And so like when I became CEO here, I'm like, we're a food waste organisation.

Let's shift the lens.

So it's food waste.

How much food is being wasted in Canada?

Nobody had done it.

Nobody had measured it.

Like, okay, well let's measure it.

Let's hire somebody and get this done.

Same with the charities across the country.

So now I'm like, you're right.

We have a processing issue in this country.

So what's the issue?

Where are all the processors in the country?

What are they processing?

How much room do they have on the line?

Like, let's figure that piece out.

So again, we are a Second Harvest is doing that.

We are, we've commissioned Value Chain Management International and we've

got an advisory group of industry and and government to figure out, okay.

What does this actually look like?

Like you can't fix a system until you actually see the system.

And so that's step one because I, I think for the end user, like one

of the challenges we have is we.

We rescue big food and small food.

So we have an app where it connects, say all the Starbucks to a local

charity or all the retail, all the retails are on it, and they'll

connect it to a local charity that has capacity to pick up smaller foods.

But when you get a call, and we do get these quite often, we have

2 million pounds of potatoes.

We have 4 million pounds of potatoes, we have 2 million pounds of this or that.

it's in its original form, so it's just pulled outta the ground dirty and it is

like bigger than this building I'm in.

Right?

Like you just.

It's huge amounts of potatoes.

So now we have to think, not to think we actually have to do,

okay, how do we make this, um, in a format that charities can accept it?

Because most charities are not big.

not Second Harvest.

Like we're the only place that can, you can call us and we'll say, yeah,

we'll take it and we'll figure it out.

So then we have to figure it out with a lot of charities across the

country, like, do you even have doc?

Do you have a cooler?

Do you have like all these things?

So this is all part of the app.

So we have all this information.

But then we have to figure out, okay, so now we have to get this washed and packed.

Well, who can wash and pack it?

We have places, but they're either full or sometimes it's like

the potato farm we got it from.

It's not their facility, and so we can't use it.

And there's a cost associated with all of this, right?

So I mean, you shouldn't say all.

No, there is, there's a, with everything.

So, so that's why I'm like, that's, that's why I'm looking at it.

I'm like, okay, how do we.

Make sure that when we collect all those food, we can get it

and we can say yes to everything.

And we've never said no.

We'll always say yes, but as the bigger the food becomes, the more often it

becomes, the more we have to figure out.

It's not just logistics anymore, it's packing, it's transforming.

How are we gonna do that?

Like right in, I'm like, I'm pointing to the warehouse in

Toronto, but we're building in a microprocessor so we can do that.

So when we get a bunch of one product, we can.

Clean it, cut it flash, freeze it, slow, release it.

Because that's another thing, right?

The charitable sector can only accept so much of whatever one product is.

I can only take so many cucumbers when there's a bunch of cucumbers, right?

And that could be, you know, a million pounds of cucumbers

where you can't, there's not a lot you can do with cucumbers.

There's not like you different than tomatoes where you can take a lot more.

So that is.

Problem in the country for not just charities, but for industry like

commercialised, like let's figure this out because it's not about the

charity, in my opinion, it's about the commercialisation of the sector a lot.

Why are we sending all this food the states to get processed, to bring back,

because we don't have, we need a stronger domestic supply chain, and that that's

This is why I love speaking to leaders like yourself

because you've amassed a kind of literacy, a unique systemic

literacy that very few people have.

And again, to you it's just kind of, oh yeah, this is how it works.

But to me it's, my mind is blowing with all these ideas.

'cause you.

Kind of accomplish something that universities could not, that industries

could not, which is engage in a research process to your point, map

out food waste, uh, across the country.

And then imagine the social and economic infrastructure to actually respond and

process and allocate it that kind of social, or even like transect, 'cause

you're transcending individual sectors.

That's the future of research.

If you were asking me and, and, and, and puts you as a leader

in a very unique position.

'cause you can see this system and infrastructure in a way that neither

the private sector nor the charitable sector, nor the academic sector

can 'cause you're kind of, you're, you're transcending all of them.

I, I say this as.

I, I saw there's been a couple of stories.

Quick tangent, then I'll come back.

There was a couple of stories in rural Saskatchewan recently about

food banks that had to limit, uh, how often people could use them.

And in my head I was trying to wonder why, and you kind of just gave me the

answer, that the issue is not food.

It's the system that processes and moves and reclaims and distributes

that food whi, which varies.

Okay, please go ahead.

Because the food bank buys food, right?

So Second Harvest rescues food, all the food we get is rescued.

So issue is often money they are bulk buying food, like they rescue some, but

that's not their core business model.

And so when you're looking at a food bank that's slowing down, it's their, their,

they don't have the resources to purchase.

I would

As would I And, and I guess that's why, because I

have like yourself, become aware of how much food is being wasted.

My, my mind couldn't circle the loop, but, but again, you, you, you just

said something that I didn't know.

I just assumed that food banks were involved in waste diversion.

The, the second harvest, at least in the parts of the country that you're

active, uh, and, and operating.

I mean, there's, the app is one thing.

But then there's Second Harvest as as more deeper infrastructure in Southern Ontario.

Are you helping food banks kind of,

Infrastructure across the country.

So we have the most sophisticated cold chain logistics system for this anywhere.

And we support all the food banks.

We give

and are they adapting?

Are they taking advantage of that?

some.

Some are, some yes and some no.

Um, I think they're, they're trying to modernise their own systems, so,

and it's the truth of like every business, every, every community,

everything is different, right?

So it's, it's not as simple as, here take this and manage it.

It's not like they have their own systems in place that they have to

figure out how do they manage that.

And I will say to, to some extent, again, it becomes a problem of

commodity at one time of the year.

You can only take so much of it.

Allocate it out.

So there is like the, the, the second harvest model is we'll give you food,

all the food, like there's, and it's every, you know, we really focus on

perishable and dairy and protein and produce because that's really the

requirements of low income people.

But we can't say, we're gonna give you this and this and

this every month or every week.

We can't, like, we can set you up so you know what's coming

through the app and stuff.

But when it's huge food like that, they're kind of, it's less.

I shouldn't say less.

It's regular, but it's not like I can say on Tuesday you're gonna get, and so

they have to supplement by purchasing to be fair, because they, they are very

much, this is what you're gonna get.

We are not, we're like, yeah, we can guarantee these kind of

categories, but not necessarily the

doesn't that come back to the literacy piece in that it, it

does seem absurd to me that we don't.

Uh, by default think of eating food that's in season and don't by default

think of eating food like rice and beans, which, you know, are never gonna

spoil and are often quite affordable.

I, I'm not at all saying like, I'm a big proponent, we.

One of our earlier episodes, uh, with Tresco Watson from the Mustard

Seed Street Church in Victoria.

We were talking about how, you know, food banks should have luxurious food as well.

Like it shouldn't just be about cheap food, it should be all the same food that

everyone has access to, but we kind of have unrealistic expectations of what

we can eat when we want as a society.

I personally think that that actually contributes to the food waste issue.

I'm curious to come back to the cultural piece, and there's two sides to this.

You know, we, we talked about the dignity and empathy kind of at the start of

our conversation, but I think we're coming back into the culture around food

waste, both on an awareness level that I think you and I both want more people

to kind of be aware of the problem so that we can prioritise addressing it.

But then there's my larger point about eating food that's in season and

recognising that when we do have a surplus of potatoes or a surplus of cucumbers,

we should all be making cucumber salad and french fries to help deal with that.

Or am I a little too crazy here?

there's so much, there's so much.

I.

No, it's, we're talking about millions of pounds of things.

Like, so even you, my friend could not eat all of this, right?

Like there's just, there's a bumper crops, there's bumper

crops, there's overproduction.

So like, it is just a humongous amount.

And so that's not, it's like you'd be having potatoes every meal.

And that's your whole meal.

Like you can't have that, you have to have a diversity of food.

And I would say, you know, when I, I, I can speak to myself.

I've been low income.

I like now I think I'm gonna go back.

We've industrialised a food system so people don't

understand what food is, period.

Like we took it outta schools, we've industrialised it through

processing and like with the ingredient list and blah, blah, blah.

we watched what has happened to human beings as a result

of that, which is terrible.

So we need to un industrialise our food system so we can get back to the roots.

To your point.

When I was growing up, I know I'm old, but still we ate food that was in season.

'cause that's all that there was.

There was there.

We weren't bringing in a bunch of other food.

But now we're like, okay, we have to bring another food.

And we do.

We, we have, we are a country of immigration, so we have to

have food that is appropriate to the community you came from.

That's not fair not to have that either.

So there has to be a balancing of this.

Is, yeah, we can't have strawberries in the middle of winter.

Everybody let it go.

And the truth is, you know, most people can't afford them anyway.

So I think this just by sheer might weed itself out 'cause

people can't afford to buy them.

And so yeah, our whole food system is a mess.

Uh, no it's not.

That's not true.

whole food system is great.

We have a great food system.

There are problems within it, and there is a problem with

food literacy in this country.

Every other G seven country, all the western country where we have just

lost sight of what food is like.

It is here ensure that we live.

That's it.

It shouldn't be a commodity.

It shouldn't be for fun.

It should be of it.

Sure.

Have a bit of fun.

have to understand this is where your food comes from.

I, held up an apple in a school in Toronto and I've said, where does this come from?

And I, you know, the grocery store and really literally like, no

understanding where does milk come from?

Grocery store.

No.

Like, there's no connections to farm anymore, and I think that's a disservice

we've done, like, we're so urban centric that we've lost sight of the rule and

what keeps us all fed we need to figure out how to connect those dots better for

I, I.

Because who doesn't love a farmer?

Man, farmer

Well, and as an aside, farmers have a kind of political

credibility that very few other members of society have, which

is, is a whole other tangent.

But you, you're, the literacy piece for me is, is something

I'm very passionate about.

I, I think it's a crucial, in an age of conspiracy and disinformation that we

foster food literacy and, and we help.

People understand the, the larger health and, and nutritional elements

there, you know, yay, high fibre.

Um, but there, there's something else I kind of wanted to dig in and, and

this is where I, I'm gonna evoke the F word because, uh, when it comes

to food, it feels like the word free I is, is kind of problematic.

like.

And I say this as someone who used to describe my religion as being

all about the free lunch, that I would go anywhere to try to find a free lunch.

But how do we balance, on the one hand, the very clear need that some food should

be free with the other very clear need that some food should cost money so that

we pay farmers, so that we pay processors, so that we incentivize grocery companies.

All throughout the chain.

It, it, it strikes me that, to your point, as we start looking at the

contradictions, the paradoxes, the resilience, the amazing aspects of

our food system, there is this kind of tension between the need to pay for

food and, uh, the presence of free food.

'cause there is free food around.

We just don't always acknowledge it as such.

I'm rambling.

Uh, bail me out here.

Okay.

Try follow your train of thought, like free food, because people are going

to charities to get food or free food.

Just in general,

A little bit of column A, a little bit of column

B, but as a researcher, I just have to acknowledge that giving away

food is central to our culture.

Religions do it, families do it.

Food banks do it.

Sure.

Community.

Sure.

okay, I, I mean, I'm gonna draw a line, a hard line on this.

Food shouldn't be free unless it's required.

Food.

Farmers need to be paid.

People that work.

Oh my God.

Like what is agriculture?

How much of our economy food should not be free.

People should be paid appropriately for the work that they do, period.

Like the end.

Having said that, food becomes free in a church because it builds community.

So it's not actually free.

Someone bought it and is, or people are pot lucking, so people are paying for it.

And then you have the whole charitable sector where food

is free, but it's not free.

Like I'm like, it's, it's not, nothing's free in this world.

And.

And nor should it be like, yes, for sure we can look at cost analogies and

all that stuff, but I actually think our food is very cheap in this country.

though it keeps going up and up and up.

I shouldn't say cheap, it's inexpensive.

A lot of it can be inexpensive, but when you have nothing, it's huge, right?

Like when you, when your budget is taking up, 40% is food.

That's outrageous.

That's less about food, and more about, uh, the economy.

having the right jobs, having real jobs, jobs that pay properly, that's a poverty

reduction And we got a problem, like we got a big problem where we're underpaying

people where there's too much gig work.

There's like, there is a lot of problems, systemic problems in, in our

labour force that should be solved.

That's different than food, right?

Like, nobody's gonna say you should gimme a free car.

Well, your luck, like why someone built the car, someone made the

parts, someone you know like.

So when you're looking inside of the system, I agree food should be food.

Food should be free to people that can't afford it, and we should give

it to them in a way that they can access it so they're not stigmatised.

But that doesn't mean someone's not paying.

It just means that individual's not paying, that family's not paying and good.

Excellent until we can get them place where they've got the jobs, uh,

or the resources available to them that they can go grocery shopping.

Nobody wants to access free food unless you're at a, unless it's

like it's a festival or party or church or whatever, but nobody's.

Yeah, I wanna go get this

See, I, I, I gotta disagree with that point.

you know, put my hand

I, I, I agree with everything you're saying about the need for labour

to be valued, but I genuinely believe, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence

on social media to support this, that people love to get food for free.

It, it is, uh, a dopamine hit.

But I agree entirely with your argument, but allow me to throw you the.

Okay.

Her research you just said, her research is social media, so I already don't take

That, but that's, that's where, but that's where, uh,

you, as a leader in the centre take a completely different position as

me, an outcast on the periphery, and that is a fair difference.

But allow me to throw a curve ball.

How does the food waste sector or the waste diversion sector.

Address the issue of volunteer labour because I agree with you all.

Labour should be compensated, people should have well paying jobs.

But there is a lot of volunteer labour required to deal with the

sector as it's currently configured.

Granted, you've really inspired me today with the possibility of a food

waste national strategy, and the way in which it could really change the

way we approach the current situation.

But it strikes me when I've looked at my local, uh, food, uh, justice

food security organisations, their primary pain point is volunteer labour.

How do we address that?

Uh, I agree with you a hundred percent.

I. I, I don't, I, I don't have volunteers.

If I have a job that requires a full-time person, I hire the

person to pay them properly.

I agree with you a hundred percent.

Nobody should be doing things for free and accept when they want to.

Mother,

I'm

that

and I wanna get out in the community, and I, I

have the wherewithal to do that.

A hundred percent.

It's your

investigation.

do what you want with it.

Where I draw the line is when someone is low income and they go into a place

and they might get some free food and that's why they're volunteering.

I really have a problem with that because if you can't afford to pay people to do

the work, you wouldn't expect to go to

Seven.

and not have staff paid or else.

So I. I fundamentally have a problem with volunteer labour as a core.

That is a whole industry problem in this industry, but it's

not actually the industry.

It's an industry problem, but it's a perception problem everybody

that thinks, well, if they work in charity, they shouldn't get paid.

Why is it more important to build a part than it is to feed somebody?

That's a, a, an outrageous mindset.

So that's something, you know, we're gonna take years to, uh,

systematically break out of their brains.

No people in charity.

This is like one of the most important jobs.

This is the people that we're hiring.

We are competing with corporations and private sector to get the best

because you want the best people.

So you can innovate, you can scale, you can do all the great

things that industry does.

So why would you expect volunteers to have the capacity?

Interest even?

Why would you not pay for that

And I,

So I, I agree with you, Jesse.

I, I fundamentally disagree with volunteer labour as a backbone of

while I, I can acknowledge that it will take a long time to

kind of shift that psychology, any short term solutions, suggestions,

uh, other than leading by example, which I suspect you're already doing.

Yeah.

Uh, think.

Part of the problem is actually within the organisations themselves, where

they, I don't know why, but I've, and I've worked with people that

they don't pay themselves properly.

And I'm like, well, you, if you don't pay yourself properly, if

you don't value yourself enough, then that's gonna trickle down.

Like you've got to, if you don't have the resources to do the job, then

maybe you don't need to be in business.

Right?

Like, need the people to do the job.

So just a lot of people with great ideas and they mean well, and it's fantastic.

But I'm also, there's a lot of.

Duplication too.

I'm like, well, look what's happening over here.

Why don't you connect with them?

But yeah, I know it is the best idea you've ever had, except for these guys

had it 30 years ago, so let's like that.

I think there's a disconnect often in terms of really wonderfully minded

people that really wanna do the right thing, but don't actually look deep

enough into see, I fixing a problem and is there somebody already doing it?

Can I just attach myself to this versus starting something new.

There's a bit of work to be done, but again, it all comes

back to like, value yourself.

Everybody.

You guys are awesome.

We're all awesome.

And there's not enough jobs like the labour and unemployment is going

up, even though immigration and, and population is going down, like there's

something wrong with our system.

And so until we fix that, and that's a big fix, and I, I'm not

leading that fix, I, that's huge.

Uh, we're still gonna have this unfortunate disconnect.

to give you credit, I do kind of think you alluded to the fix.

You're not in a position to apply the fix, but you alluded to the fix in the sense

that we should be paying people more.

Like, I think part of the reason why a law.

Of jobs are not filled, is they're not offering a high enough wage to

motivate people to apply for it.

Um, we're we're just about outta time.

The, the two

Yeah, maybe except for unemploy.

No, go ahead.

Sorry, like, you're right, we need to pay people more.

But they're taking the jobs because they have no choice.

then they're stuck in this system of, I can't pay my rent and feed my kids

because there's, they're stuck in this place where we don't pay people properly.

That's not true for everybody, there is a great deal of labour that is happening.

Very undervalued.

Very

And to your point.

Sorry.

I'll let you end, Jesse.

I, I could go

Uh, uh, look, uh, I'm temping to take you up on that offer.

My, my brain is still going nuts.

And to your point, I think there are some AI developers who are being paid too much,

uh, in terms of the larger, uh, market.

I'm digressing.

The, the second last question I ask every guest, is there anything

that we haven't touched upon today that, uh, in our final moments you

really think we should mention?

Or, or, or, or, or get to?

The first step is the best step.

So see what you can do.

I, for me, it's about food waste.

So look in your fridge, understand your best before dates, and then share that

information with your friends and family.

So go to the Second Harvest website.

We have best before dates when your food is actually good too.

If you're donating food as an industry.

here.

And if you are an industry, if there's a lot of industry listening, please donate

your surplus food to Second Harvest.

We'll train you, we'll take it.

We'll give you a tax receipt.

Sometimes we'll give you data like we are your best spot to make sure

your food gets into the mouths of

And let me uh, reiterate that by saying the infrastructure

that you guys are creating is absolutely unbelievable and invaluable.

And, and I think the private sector benefits tremendously, uh, from

both its existence and the kind of research and intelligence you guys,

uh, have developed and are develop.

Our last question is the shout out, uh, phase of our game show.

Uh, is there any other leaders, uh, that you think we should be paying

attention to that you wanna shout out?

It's meant to be kind of spontaneous.

I'm trying to catch people by surprise, but when I say

leader, who do you think of?

Who's the folks that inspire you, that you think the rest of us, uh,

uh, uh, should be following as well?

I think one of the leaders for sure and for me has

always been Catherine Parsonage.

She is the CEO of Toronto Foundation for Student Success, and she has been working

on child nutrition for her whole career.

And because of her, not just her, obviously, we have finally gotten a

federal national student nutrition programme and she's very innovative.

She's.

Very passionate.

Um, and I like when I was young, she was someone that really inspired me.

I'm like, you can do anything.

You can do anything.

We can all do anything.

And so she's the one I like the most.

I shouldn't say like the most, but she's inspired me my whole life.

Right on.

Right on.

Well, thank you Lori.

Uh, this has been for me mind blowing.

I, I know I'm gonna probably spend the rest of the day trying to process some

of the dots that you've connected and try to grasp a, a sense of our food system.

That, that you see with a really inspiring sense of courage.

'cause on the one hand, you acknowledge that there are some issues out there,

but on the other hand, you see a path to a, a, a much healthier future.

So, uh, welcome to the Future Herd.

We're definitely gonna have you back and, uh, thanks again

for all the work that you do.

Thanks for having me.

Hey man, I'll be back anytime.

Uh, I love talking about this, as you can tell.

This was another one of those episodes where my mind just

kept being blown the entire time.

It's not just trying to understand or grasp the scale of the food waste that we

deal with, but also the sheer challenge of eating all the cucumbers that Lori

cited, or dealing or thinking about the psychology of eaters as to what

we choose and whether it's in season.

Let alone what I'm really left with, uh, which is the research

and intelligence capabilities that Second Harvest has developed.

And I say this in part because, uh, AI research is something that's a passion

of mine, something that we have and we'll talk about in episodes to come.

But where we started this episode is kind of where we're ending this episode,

which is the privileged perspective of the leader that I think often leaders

take for granted that what they see is special, that not everyone is able

to see what they see, and that vision comes with a kind of responsibility.

A responsibility, not just for leadership, but to address the kind of problems

that are only visible when you're in that position, when you have the

privilege to look, to think and to act.

And that's where Lori, I think, really inspires not just a

reassessment of food waste, but a reassessment of food security.

And this will be a focus, uh, I think for our sector, certainly

for this podcast moving forward.

And that's where, again, I remind all of you to check out Commons

dot, the future heard.ca to share your perspective on food security.

I kind of selfishly use this episode myself as a kind of research,

uh, uh, regular listeners know.

That I live to learn.

And part of the purpose of this podcast for me is to continue my uh, uh, steep

learning curve within the AgriFood sector.

But there are a lot of questions that Lori raised that I'm gonna pose to

future guests so that we are able to perhaps get a very unique perspective,

not just on food security, but more importantly on food infrastructure.

'cause that's the takeaway that I have from today's episode.

That we take for granted the infrastructure that delivers

food from farm to plate, and maybe it should be open source.

Maybe it should be more transparent.

Maybe it should be something that I don't know.

You could go on a website and zoom in and zoom out and look at all the connections.

I mean, shout out to Dana McCauley and Fin 'cause they're

kind of working on those tools.

I'm thinking out loud.

Until next time, thanks for tuning into the Future Herd.

Uh, we'll hope to hear you or see you soon.