For many, the Covid pandemic prompted a rethinking of how we serve the world. Peggy Horan's rethinking feels more radical than most. After decades of working with movement and touch, at the iconic Esalen Institute, Peggy entered her 80s eager to explore serving clients in an entirely new way. My inspiring conversation with Peggy initially released in the summer of 2022.

Peggy Horan is a 50+-year practitioner and teacher of Esalen Massage, student of yoga and movement, and a retired midwife. She was one of the founders of the Esalen Massage School. and is the author of "Connecting Through Touch: The Couples' Massage Book." Peggy first visited Esalen in 1966, and both her work and her personal journey are intimately entwined with the spirit and legacy of Esalen, the legendary human development institute in California's Big Sur.

Today, at the age of 82, in a time of virtual communication and sometimes physical distance, Peggy has studied to become a life coach.. She is exploring ways of serving clients without touch and working in prisons, where touch is not allowed.

Peggy Horan first arrive at Esalen in Big Sur, California in 1966 and she has been involved in one way of another with the iconic Esalen Institute ever since. Peggy is one of the Founder of the Esalen Massage School she has worked her entire life through movement, body work and touch. In my truly inspiring conversation with Peggy in the Summer of 2022, we discuss how she is exploring new ways of working, ways that do not involve touch, ways that allow her to work at prison where touch is not allowed. Peggy is now in her 80s. This is a remarkable conversation. I invite you to listen. Thank you so much!

Hey, this is Achim Nowak, executive coach and host of the MY FOURTH ACT podcast. If life is a five act play, how will you spend your FOURTH ACT that? I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected fourth acts, listen, and to be inspired. And please rate us and subscribe on whatever platform you are listening on. Let's get started. I am so very happy to welcome Peggy Iran to the my fourth act podcast. Peggy is a 50 plus year practitioner and teacher of SLM massage, a student of yoga and movement and a retired midwife. She was one of the founders of the SLM massage school and as the author of connecting through touch that couples massage book, and you first visited Lynn in 1966. And both her work and her personal journey are intimately entwined with a spirit and legacy of this legendary spot and Big Sur. Today at the age of 82. He is embarking on a whole new set of professional adventures and one of the pleasures will be to talk about those. So welcome, Peggy.

Thank you so much Achim

i We should right before we started recording we were talking about. So the weather and what we see outside and and not everybody was listening may know where Big Sur is in what you see, as you look outside, would you just give us a little snapshot?

Yes, pleasure, sir, is a very beautiful, dramatic piece of coastline about midway between San Francisco and LA. And it stretches about 100 miles and it's got the Pacific Ocean on one side and the mountains on the other side. And I live about half, half a mile up a mountain in Big Sur on the south coast. And from my house, I can see the ocean I can see the mountains, a lot of wild country a lot of untamed land. It's a very beautiful combination of both wild nature and gardens and, and homes and yeah, beaches. Magnificent spot.

And as in you've lived there for quite a while now. And maybe asking impossible question. Oh, and go there anyway. So how does this view and what you see how does that nurture your spirit and your soul?

Well, you know, just being in nature is is so nurturing. And it just connects connects us and reminds us of something much larger than ourselves get caught up in our problems and all the things that run through our minds and to just go out to the beach and feel the wind and listen to the surf and walk the sand. It's just that clears the mind and feeds the soul to be so close into nature.

The other already mentioned that you're long association with SLN. We'll talk a little bit about how you got there. But if there are listeners who have heard of Les Esslinger, but don't actually really know what it is he we're going to do a brief introduction. What is Exelon?

Yes, Aslan is a retreat center and it's dedicated to education and development, human development, human potential was coined way back in the 60s, the teaching there is all been dedicated to developing the human potential. So body, mind and spirit practices that help people in engage in all of the many practices that help feed those aspects of ourselves. It's located right on the Pacific coast with hot springs that are fed natural hot springs and has always been a healing center way before we got there. The esslyn Indians used it as a also a retreat but a retreat med for healing. So it still is to this day. Yeah.

I can't imagine that somebody's listening who was listening to you doesn't mean you want to go I think I want to go there. It sounds good. What I know about your story is that you you If I miss characterize this, Brian, you had what I would say almost a typical professional creative lifestyle in New York, a very urban life. You ended up visiting a salon for the first time in 1966. And then a few years later, you moved there? What was your inner journey that got you to Okay? Maybe I'm leaving New York, and maybe I'm gonna go and live in this really very different place.

Well, let me put it in context. It was the 60s and the 60s, everything was changing, you know, we were discovering all kinds of freedoms that had previously not been available to us. So freedom of body, mind and spirit again. And you know, there was a lot of introduction to drugs and to be here now sort of thinking, change the words of Krishna Murthy, were always very important to me, freedom from the known. You know, I had a wonderful background and upbringing. But I felt like I didn't really know myself. And I think there was this longing to find out who I was, besides what I had been taught to be. And there was just this yearning to discover my own soul and what I needed and what could develop. Once I was away from everything I had known, I felt like I couldn't grow in the ways I wanted to in New York. I was also married at the time, my husband was also very interested in all of this, this sort of new way of thinking, and he ended up coming to California after me, but we didn't stay married. I just felt like I needed to be on my own, I needed to explore and discover and find my own way in the world. That's really what drew me and I go into esslyn. In the 60s, when it was so magical there. It was, like coming into some sort of Paradise from New York City into this magical place with beautiful people and music and dancing and wonderful workshop, just this freedom of Spirit. That, of course, was part of the 60s and the whole transition. All of that sort of helped me go from East Coast to West Coast. And then I never looked back. I've been here ever since.

What stands out for you from that very first visit? That you were there? I mentioned 1966 Are there specific encounters moments, images that you remember, especially from that very first time?

I do and one of them is my first massage ever. And then of course, you several years later I began to to embrace that work. So that one very important transition. I mean, the whole idea of awakening the body was new to we, you know, we had brought been brought up in the 40s and 50s. It was very repressive in terms of women's rights and freedom and body awareness and body acknowledgement. Was it okay to even have a body you know, so that was part of it, that sort of discovery of oh my gosh, there's wonderful magic here. And then also, there was just the sense of freedom there, there were just people who, who seemed to be living in the moment who were spontaneous, there was a lot of joy, there was a lot of music and a lot of dancing. And I was very drawn to that. I thought that was very magical. And I felt a little bit like Alice in Wonderland, really, down?

Well, just the way you describe it, I can totally sense that. When you talk about the discovery of our body and those sensations, through massage, can you describe that some more like, I trust is different for every person, what we discover, but But what are some of the things that you started to discover about your own body?

Well, first of all, that it felt good to be touched in that way. I mean, the excellent massage is a very loving, caring, connective approach to the work. So being touched with such awareness and presence was definitely new. And then, of course, the wisdom of the body, you know, learning from looking inside, that that whole concept was new to me. The idea that the answers were inside, not outside. And so it just turned the focus for me from an outer focus to an inner focus on many different levels. And then, of course, also, I was very drawn to the work and I thought, Wow, what a beautiful way to give. The first time I did massage, I just thought, well, this is so natural that we all know this. Everybody really knows how to do this. But of course it's been conditioned out of us through our upbringing and you know, you touch somebody you saying Excuse me? No. So there was all of that sort of discovery that was just really opening for me.

So at a place like, excellent, and just ask the right questions, do you so just raise your hand, say, I want to do massages? Or somebody says, Let me show you how to do massages, or does somebody mentor your? Or is it sort of how does one go from having received a massage as you did? And then a few years later, being a giver?

No, that's a great question. Because it's changed so much since the day that I entered. I just got interested and started asking people if I could come to their class, and there were massage workshops being given. So I started to attend workshops, and I had such a natural feeling for it. That very long after taking a few classes, I asked the person who was the manager at the time, gentle lead him and I said, I'd like to do massage. She said, Well, fine. What's stopping you? I said, Well, I don't know.

Nothing? What a wonderful question. Yeah.

So she said, Well, give me a massage. And we'll talk about it. So I gave her a massage. And then I went to the people who were in charge of the massage crew was a very small group of people at that time, I got hired. And that was oh, so far back. And now, we have a school, we have trainings, we have a certification, we have a teacher training. So over the years, we've evolved, and of course, now there's a much more rigorous training before anybody is accepted to do massage, and the size of the crew is much, much bigger than it was in those days.

I heard you speak about the massage experience and how it has changed over time in a conversation we recorded for the Henry Miller library. One thing that really struck me also how boundaries are all massage have changed how expectations of maybe the the form of massage. So as I'm listening, I'm going, How intuitive is it? I'm thinking it is always deeply intuitive. And how much of it is it just following a roadmap that's often repeated?

Well, there's definitely a structure to our work, we have our signature move as a long connecting stroke that we go from the feet to the fingertips, or from the head to the toes, you know, whichever way the form has really changed enormously. Over the years, we've added a lot more movement and more structure, we've also added a lot deeper work than when it started, it was much more sort of sensual, and connecting on the level of the skin and not working very deep into the muscle structure. But over the years, the influence of other teachers either were off who came in with Rafina, and talked about working deeper and changing the fascia and the muscles. So over time, we evolved in that way. But the approach, the general approach is the same. I mean, it's what's deeply important to us is the connection and the presence of the practitioner. And so no matter what the form is, and we all do it slightly differently, of course, because we're all different in what we've learned and what we've incorporated into our work. But the quality of touch the presence of the practitioner, the way we connect with a client, and the respect that we show, these are all sort of trademarks of our work. So it's really not about technique at all. It's really about presence, I would call it a moving meditation.

What struck me when you describe that long stroke, you know, when you were describing this, I immediately go to, well, that's full body Kundalini, you know, that is like a major, everything connects energy that you're activating, rather than focusing on just this body part of that body part, right. It's the whole thing.

That's right, connecting, connecting it all and keeping the the mind of the recipient to incorporate that connection for themselves.

Another just maybe naive question, but I'm curious. So when your work there as a massage and when you start massage therapists Did you live at Esalen? Or did you live outside and come in, do your work and leave? Like how integrated was your whole life and the experience of working at

Esalen? Well, in the beginning, most of us lived there. Of course, it was very small than you know, there weren't that many people there. So most of us lived at US Lynn and actually my first job was in the kitchen that didn't go over very well. wasn't great, but so I started doing massage pretty soon after my after getting there really maybe six months or so. But we did live there. Some people lived off property and would just come in and over the years, it's changed. Some people live there, some people don't now, because Big Sur has changed so much, and there's not as well, there's very few rentals. And they're very expensive. So many people now live in town, Monterey, Carmel, and commute, some commute from further away. And they're given housing for the days that they're working. So that's changed a lot. So the community, you know, in the beginning was very much a community. And we were a part of that community. I had, I got married again, and had two children who were born there. And we had a wonderful preschool called gazebo school where my children went. So I was there for maybe 10 years. And then we moved down here and bought our own place. And so ever since 1981, I've been commuting. So I'm one of the commuters. So most people who work now doing massage, do commute, they don't provide housing unless you're just for a couple of days at a time.

A word from your sponsor, that's me. I invite you to go to the website associated with this podcast www.my, fourth active.com, you will find other equally inspiring conversation with great humans. And you will also learn more about the my fourth act mastermind groups where cool people figure out how to chart their own fourth acts. Please check it out. And now back to the conversation. You already been talking about how obviously plays like acelin changes and evolves over time. I'm also thinking about you you've been doing massage there for 50 some years. That's like pretty wild, I think it's been a while is in a good way. And I'm wondering how has that work? changed you as a person? And what have you learned about yourself

through this work? Well, you know, truthfully, I did do a couple of other things along the line, I always maintained a massage practice. But there was a time when I was more active as a midwife. I had a partner here in Big Sur Robin and we did a lot of homebirth together. So that took me out. Also, when I was 65, a friend of mine, and I bought a little gift shop gallery in Big Sur I did that for eight years. And at that time, I was only doing a little bit of massage. So I have had other things that have sort of pulled me out of the practice. But I always maintained at least one day of work, because it feeds me it feels good to me to get in this way and to be able to help people heal themselves. And also the practice, as I said, is a moving meditation. So for me, there's a lot of personal work and how present can I be? And how, how intuitive can I be with this client? How sensitive and can I be with them? My work has changed with each year and what I learned I have the ability to become more present. And that's what deepens the practice for me. I asked people, How was the pressure and they say perfect, you know, then okay, I'm happy, you know, that's where I want it to be. So I cherish that ability to be able to be present enough to give them what what it is that they're they've asked for.

I'm not a massage that worker but I've had a partner who was a massage worker and a very good one. It always strikes me that in in a very present massage relationship. There's this she profound given receive between two people. Am I correct? And if so, what what are you receiving from the clients who you serve?

Absolutely a give and take? Well, it makes me feel that I'm receiving the gift of them accepting what I'm giving. And as they accept it and truly relax, that's a gift to me, because that's my intention so that there is an energy exchange. And just like with any practice or any relationship, the more we can tune into each other and be present for each other, then the more successful it's going to be. Now, of course there. There are times when it doesn't work that way, you know, there isn't always as magical connection. But more often than not there is especially with time. And you know, for many people who come to Iceland, you know, they're there for healing and the healing that they get by being touched in a mindful way is just extraordinary. I mean, particularly people who don't have a good association with touch. So you know it the work is very magical for us. We see a lot of healing that happens

I'm going to ask a question that I immediately think is not fair. But I'm going to ask it anyway, because so many brilliant minds and teachers came to SLN share their wisdom, with with other learners, but also with you all, if you had to very subjectively say these are like a couple of people who I encountered as Lynn, who impacted me through the work and through what they teach, like who comes to mind?

Well, I think the first one is Charlotte Silva, who taught sensory awareness, she was one of the early teachers there and, and her work was really, really subtle, and she was teaching people to go inside and to feel their bodies, she had a great influence on our work. Another teacher, well, our Wong was a later teacher of Tai Chi, but, but the Tai Chi movement was very influential. And for me, in learning how to move from my center, and how to move from my core and work with gravity, it was Tai Chi is very much like dance in a way. And so the movement that we do as part of the massage is very much alike, from based on those movements as Tai Chi gave us a flow. So that was very influential. Also, yoga and breath work was extremely important, you know, because again, if a person is breathing and allowing, change, then things can happen if the breath has been held, and we need to work with that, and encourage people to breathe. So the yoga practice again, was very important. And Joel Kramer was my early teacher, Fritz Perls, who was a gestalt therapist, very famous. And his work was actually quite Buddhist in a way because he was all about the now and the here and now. And, you know, bringing people into the present emotionally. So again, presence. And then Alan Watts, who was also there at the time, and again, another Buddhist teacher, so there were a lot of amazing people. Yeah, there was a man named Bernie Gunther, who also taught sensory awareness. And he was one of the early developers of the esslyn massage, as well as a woman named Molly de shacman, who I had very little contact with. But she really was the originator. And as she was there in the very beginning,

I really appreciate you mentioning these luminaries and also the influence they've had on you and the plates and the spirit and the energy. That is there. One thing that completely fascinates me about you, and I hope it's okay that I mentioned your age, you're very upfront about it. And you're you are embarking on a few new professional adventures that in my mind, our natural extensions of what you've done, you are studying, you have been studying. And you have a whole other set of amazing aspirations of what you want to do. Would you just take us into that a little bit?

Yes. Well, you know, actually, some of this grew out of the pandemic, because all of a sudden, I had time. It was the first time in many years that I had really an open time my children are grown, I have grandchildren that I adore. None of them are living here in right in our homestead right now. But close by. I had time and I thought well, one thing that I've been interested in and studying for the last 10 years or so is meditation. And I saw that Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach, were offering a teacher training. And I thought, Well, I think this is the time, my teacher was Robert Hall. He's passed away a couple of years back, but I studied with him in Mexico for quite a few years. And I decided I would do this. And it's a two year commitment. And it was all on Zoom, which you know, has its ups and downs, as we all know, but it was something that I could really jump into, I had the time to put into it. And I had the ability to do it. So I thought, well, I'm going to do this. So I'm now one year into it or a year plus beginning to teach, although actually we've always taught massage in our trainings at esslyn. Because it's such an important part of learning to be present. And so this mindfulness is a wonderful practice. I've learned a lot have gotten a lot of background and Buddhism, a lot of background and how to teach. It's just been extraordinary, really. So this is one thing and so that's expanded my teaching possibilities. Also I decided that I'd like to do some more work from home and have a little bit more control over my schedule and I've been interested in coaching for a long time one of my teachers Richard heckler has watching. Yes, you probably know him. I do. Yeah. I've taken some courses with him. And I've been very interested in coaching. So I thought, well, you know, if I pull everything together that I've learned, I think I have a lot that I can offer people at this point. So I've been working on a website for the last, I don't know, a year maybe.

To clarify, this is your first website, right?

This is my first website. I've never put myself out there. Because I've always worked through Aslan. So I decided I would bring together all of these things that I've learned, I've studied a lot of psychology as well as you know, movement practices, meditation, and of course, massage. So I'm doing that I'm going to start my website is almost done. And I'll have that soon, it'll be up and ready to go, then I'll be able to begin that practice. So that's very exciting to me. And I really look forward to connecting with people in a different way. One of the

powers of websites, I think, is that we, it challenges us to name what we do, and explain it to people. And to give that a concrete voice. What was that like for you, you've learned so many different things to tell the story of your offer?

Well, that was really challenging for me. And I mean, first of all, the vulnerability of putting myself out there was the big one. And then, you know, trying to get clear about what it was that I was doing. And I did reach out to another coach who was she was quite helpful. In the beginning, I had a couple sessions with her helping me sort of narrow things down. And, and I worked with many different people and my web designer, as well as I have a daughter who's a wonderful writer, but both my daughters, right, well, but one who's an editor, and she helped me a lot. It was very difficult to sort of condense all this and then to how to present it in a way that was interesting. And, and what was I really about? So it brought a lot of clarity process brought a lot of clarity to me. And you know, I had to get specific, as I'm presenting myself. And so it's taken a while

you and I both know Chip Conley, you know, who's coined the term of being a modern elder, and what you're describing, is, you're very much assimilating, you know, life's worth learning and experience in the form of a modern elder, and articulating it to people who haven't met you yet. Right? Yes. The other thing, I just want to say this, because it struck me. You've been in this magical place where amazing teachers from all over the world came to you to teach you, right? They're all descended on where you lived, which is, in a way extraordinary. And what strikes me and I would love for you to elaborate on it. You're talking about being able to do some work via zoom, which I also cherish. But I understand you're also interested in working in prisons, which is a whole other playground, that means going out into a different space. That's different from from mesolimbic. Sir, would you talk about that

with us? Yes, I have had this thought for many years about taking massage work into women's prisons. And as I started my research and reaching out to people involved in those worlds, I discovered that I can't do that, because they don't allow touch in prisons. So that bit of information was just kind of horrifying to me, because I thought of all places that need this work, it would be so wonderful to bring it to them. And there's no way to do that. So then I sort of expanded my church and I got connected to the prison yoga project, which is a group out of San Francisco, and they bring yoga to prison population, and they have a very, very successful program. They've helped a lot of people they've done beautiful work. So I'm connecting with them. And we're discussing the possibility of teaching either directly or through their trainers self massage as a practice for them. And that could be combined with other mindfulness practice some yoga, I mean, there's a way to sort of bring that into what they're already doing. And I'm not sure where it's going to go for me at this point, whether I'll actually be in the prisons working or whether I'll be working with their trainers, or whether I'll be doing both. I mean, because of where I live. It's difficult. We have one facility in San Luis Obispo that actually the yoga Prison Project is involved with so there's a possibility that I could work there. Going in with other trainers, of course. And then there's another project that I was just introduced to through somebody on our board, which is another project that works, teaches mindfulness in prisons. So this is a little bit more in alignment with what I'm doing right now. And there's a possibility that something can develop there, as well. And that does mean traveling moving out, I just have this feeling about it, I'm interested. And I just feel it's a way to give back to a population that doesn't have access to these kinds of learnings. I just feel there's a lot of value and give me a lot of pleasure to be able to bring that to that population.

I keep thinking to words are coming up as allowing the use of words synthesizing, and innovating, that I hear you doing both of those things, which just inspire me, you know, and our continuous ability to do so. If you play with those two words, how are you synthesizing how you innovating, you have a sense of where else it might be moving you toward, besides the physical places where you might be working.

I don't have a sense of moving towards other places. You know, I don't know what will develop. But I have a very optimistic view of this time in my life, because I'm seeing how things are showing up and how things are changing. And how exciting that is. I don't think I expected to be in my 80s and doing anything new. I don't think I don't really know what I expected. I don't know that I thought a whole lot about it. What am I my favorite things that I'm doing is being a grandmother. So I wish that because that is a beautiful gift in life. That's a big part of my focus now as well as these other projects. So I don't want to get too far from home because this is where my heart is because of my family. You know, of course. So yeah, we'll see. I definitely feel like this. This coaching is a synthesis of, of everything I've done, including grandmother, you know, I have the grandmother wisdom as well. So we'll see what the future brings. But certainly open to possibilities and excited about whatever comes your

way, the spirit of the cycle of life. You know, what brings you the greatest joy in being a grandmother and what are some things that you get from your grandchildren.

Oh my goodness, it's just the love that deep, deep love. One grandmother, my other grandmother had passed away when I was born. But we were very distant. You know, I didn't have a kind of connection. So when my grandchildren were born, and I saw what it was, I mean, one of them lived with us for on and off for many years of her young life. She's still young, you know, I was with her, both of them from the time they were born, I was at the birth of both of them, I did not deliver them. I was there to welcome them. And you know, it's been such a beautiful, beautiful, deep, deep connection. And, and it's all new to me because as I say I didn't live with I have this close relationship with a grandmother. So I had no idea. I mean, I hear other people talking in their you know, their stories about their grandchildren. Yeah, yeah. You know, and now I'm one of those women who, yeah, so you know, just the joy of being in the moment the wonder that they bring to life and the beauty and the joy and the closeness. It's just magnificent.

Yeah. I don't want to put you in the role of being advice giver for others. But as you mentioned, you know, you're in your 80s. Now, you're have you're embarking on a bunch of new things. And there might be listeners will listen to you who are maybe not in their 80s yet, but they're going Gosh, I don't know if I have the courage to try all the new things that Peggy is willing to explore. If you were to share any insights or wisdom with them, what would you say to them?

I don't think it's about courage, at least for me it I didn't identify it that way. It was more like passion, like what is meaningful to you. What do you want to do is there's something that's calling, you know, think about ways that you can give back to the world. I mean, you've done your work in the world, probably. How can you help others at this point? You know, there's a million volunteer organizations that need support and need people and particularly elderly people. And, as Rhonda said, walking each other back home, I mean, there's lots of room for that. You know, what calls you doesn't matter whether it's for what it is, you know, it's about what where your heart is, and how you feel you can contribute. And don't stop. You know, just it doesn't matter how old you are. I don't think about my age. It's not relevant. I'm still just doing what I'm doing. I mean, it'd be nice if I were 62. And not 82. Because. But go for it. Don't stop. Don't ever stop.

So appreciate all the things we just touched on. You made me remember my grandmother on my mother's side, who was just a beacon of completely unconditional love. I just felt so loved. In she Oh, no material sense. She lived in a simple apartment. She didn't have a lot of money. But gosh, that was the richest experience of lava has child the ability to give that to others. So beautiful,

isn't it? It is so beautiful. And let's say you're lucky that you had that experience. I mean, we not everybody gets that, you know, and how many people have a relationship of unconditional love in their life? I mean, it's more rare than common. wonderful gifts.

I can't imagine that that some of our listeners aren't really curious about you and want to learn more. And I trust that by the time I release this podcast, your website is up and running. So what's the address of your website?

Peggy moran.com.

I love it. You kept it simple. Good. Peggy. arann.com.

Very simple. Yes. It'll be up soon.

Thank you for the gift of this conversation. And thank you for just thank you for not having stopped I really admire that about you. So thank you for that.

Pleasure. Thank you so much. I came

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