Shownotes
What happens when workplace positivity becomes a toxic mask that's slowly killing your business? Steve's recent post about this very issue sparked a fascinating conversation that reveals why so many blue-collar organizations are struggling with employee loyalty and retention.
The discussion began with a complete misunderstanding of what "toxic positivity" means. Its not about creating contagious positive energy it reveals the darker truth: organizations that force fake smiles while burying serious problems. This disconnect led to breakthrough insights about what blue-collar workplaces really need to thrive.
We emphasize a crucial point: "If people can't be real, they're never going to be loyal." Organizations that prioritize comfort over truth create environments where problems get buried and trust erodes.
Highlights:
- Gen X sees through BS but won't make waves, Gen Z spots fake positivity quickly.
- Third-party facilitation builds trust that employees lack internally.
- When employees leave en masse, it's a leadership problem not employee problem.
- Focus on "winning the week" with solutions rather than desperate blame-shifting.
Are you dealing with toxic positivity in your workplace? Whether you're a blue-collar worker, supervisor, or business owner, it's time to evaluate whether your organization prioritizes comfort over truth.
Don't miss future episodes where we bring our unfiltered perspective to the challenges and opportunities in blue-collar America. Please leave a review on Apple Podcasts is helps more people find our show!
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Transcripts
Hey everyone, welcome back to this episode of Blue Collar BS with your cohost, Brad.
Steve Doyle (:And Steve.
Brad Herda (:There we go. I'm glad you can remember your name. That is awesome. I'm glad. I'm glad it's not that bad of a Friday afternoon for you. So here's the topic of the day and you and you Mr. LinkedIn are the inspiration for today's topic and it comes to a post that I saw about toxic positivity.
Steve Doyle (:I know, been rough.
All right.
Steve Doyle (:gosh. All right.
Steve Doyle (:Okay, yeah.
Brad Herda (:I love the phrase of toxic positivity. That is spectacular. And so the question I have for you today, Mr. Doyle, is how do we generate that toxic positivity across generations in the blue collar world upon which we are trying to make an impact and whether that is as individual contributors, as leaders, as founders, as owners.
As whoever it is, how do we create the toxic positivity wave to move an organization to places they never thought they could go?
Steve Doyle (:You mean by still being encouraging or
Brad Herda (:Hey, hey, hey, hey, dickhead. I don't know what toxic positivity means to you, but.
Steve Doyle (:Well, you know, it's really about the
good vibes only aspect, right? When you're.
Brad Herda (:Goodbye. Also, we're in a touchy feely stuff. Okay, I got it. I know I and in all seriness it is positivity can go in a bunch of different ways. It doesn't have to be all frills and and rainbows and lollipops, right?
Steve Doyle (:kind of I mean, let's put that. Yeah.
Steve Doyle (:Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, quite simply, like, I know what you're commenting on. It's one of the posts that I did.
Brad Herda (:Yeah, I know. That's where I came up with the idea. I kind of mentioned that in the pre-log here. Did you not hear?
Steve Doyle (:You did, you did, but it's it's the over essence. Like people don't want to hear the negative stuff. They just it's so overly positive. That there is no room for any constructive feedback. There's no room for really getting into what are issues, what are problems? Nope, we're just going to sweep it under the rugs. We're just going to talk. We're going to be positive all the time. And, you know, if you don't like it, just put a smile on your face. Granting move on.
Brad Herda (:So I'll be fairly, I'll be honest. I did not read the article. I just saw the words of toxic positive. So you're taking, so I'm taking toxic positivity from a, a positive viewpoint. You're bringing toxic positivity from a negative viewpoint.
Steve Doyle (:Hmm
Yeah.
Steve Doyle (:Ha
Steve Doyle (:Well, I'm bringing it from a a truth aspect. If people can't be real, they're never going to be loyal.
So meaning, if people truly can't talk about what's going on, whether it's a issue going on in the company, it's a personal problem, our society is teaching people, is telling people to suppress the truth in favor of comfort.
Brad Herda (:Okay, all right. I see where you're going. I see you're putting down there. I can I can appreciate that. That's not anywhere that I was going with that opportunity whatsoever. I was going down the path of how do we create that toxic positive toxic meaning the oxymoron of toxicity being a positive toxic environment where everybody's excited to be there. Everybody understands their role. Everybody understands their
Steve Doyle (:Are you?
Steve Doyle (:Hmm.
Brad Herda (:the essence and energy of the of what the team is all trying to accomplish. That's where I was coming from with toxic positivity, not the other way around. So, so words matter, right? And and how we interpret those matter play a big, big role in that. So help me help you help me help you get through this show.
Steve Doyle (:Wow.
Steve Doyle (:Well, words do matter.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, so I mean, let's so think about this. You're bringing in new hires into the organization. And it's like, we can only we're only going to talk about all the wonderful things we're not going to bring up all the real things that people go through and see after three months, six months. Maybe it's two weeks, whatever is really going on. We're going to put our our quote unquote Sunday best on.
And we're going to show up. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And we're only going to show those wonderful things when the truth is. Everything else that is. When we bury it, we're burying trust, we're bearing loyalty. And even though we say we quote unquote want high performance. We're sweeping all of that under the rug.
Brad Herda (:It's like preparing for an ISO audit. Let's cover everything up and let's say, it's all in the theory, yes.
Steve Doyle (:just to quote unquote save face and make sure that people always see us wear our Sunday best. And it's just a facade. So.
Brad Herda (:How much do you think that...
How much of that do you believe is happening from a generational perspective of truly buying into that? Like if you were to take a Gen Z believing the facade versus the millennial versus the X versus the boomer, where would you put the opportunity to buy into the fraudulent, the fake news, the fraudulent facade, the whatever it is, the
Steve Doyle (:No.
Brad Herda (:do what I say, not what we, we're gonna say one thing but behave another to get that path.
Steve Doyle (:You want me to pick a generation that does this more?
Brad Herda (:I'm just saying what generation see through it more so than not.
Steve Doyle (:I would say Gen X totally sees through it. Boomers, they know it's happening, but you know what? I'm not making waves. And so you've got Gen Xers that are now at the spectrum of, hey, I've got five to seven years left. I'm not making waves. I see it, but you know what? We're just gonna stick together and you guys just go deal with your fluffy bunny bullshit stuff.
And you've got the other side that's like, yeah, I'm out the door. I can't drink much more Kool-Aid. Right, the cool aids over with like parties over with. I'm adding vodka to this and I'm peace and out girl scout. Let's go. But then we get into the. The the Gen Z that's watching everything they come in. They're like, OK, this is good. This is good. They start watching everything, but then they've also got the reality of wait a minute. This is just a smoke show.
Brad Herda (:Okay. Okay.
Steve Doyle (:So they are able. Some are able to see through that and others want to lean into it. So I think it really comes down to how were these different generations brought up and you notice that left out a group in there. Sorry my generation we call that crap out. I know which one you're talking about. This is not my generation.
Brad Herda (:I noticed your generation.
Brad Herda (:No, no, no, no, you know which one I'm talking about.
Steve Doyle (:It's just not my generation. the, you know, there's, there is a group that, and honestly, it is in all, I see it in all generations because it's just like, some will want to just sweep it under the rug. Like I'm not here to make waves. I don't want to, I don't want to do this. And there's some that, Hey, no, they really are going to speak the truth because they want to see the change. And you see that you truly do see that in all generations. Like there's going to be pockets of people that do that.
And it just depends on how they were brought up and where they were brought up. come on. It's not politics. Let's go.
Brad Herda (:I'm not going there. I'm not going there. Nope. Nope. Not going there. It's not, you're right. It's not politics, but the next thing next to it. It's right next to it.
Steve Doyle (:Come on, how many steps do we got to go away from politics before we talk about it, Right, so. That's the whole that's the whole reason for the post, right, is. The toxic positivity it.
Brad Herda (:Nope, not going there. Not doing it. Nope, not gonna happen. I don't care how you spell potato, not gonna happen.
Steve Doyle (:It turns
Brad Herda (:So let's flip it. How do we flip that script for that? It might be the 60 person fabrication manufacturing facility, right? Where everything is rainbows and lollipops and we're trying to blow smoke up everybody's ass and we're trying to, right? We've got that diverse workforce from a demographics perspective and age group and like, okay, great. Some folks are there because
Steve Doyle (:Mmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:They need the job. Others are there because it's convenient and I don't want to put right. I've been here 25 years. I don't want to rock the boat. Fuck it. Why would I? Why would I give this up potentially? All that other stuff. How do we turn it into not necessarily the toxic side of it, but the positive side? How do we turn those those real conversations into a positive effect?
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:when you can strip out emotions, honestly, because that's where a lot of this comes into play is making space to have the conversation. Yes, there's going to be emotions involved.
Brad Herda (:like a room where you have rubber walls that's kind of space or what do you mean by space?
Steve Doyle (:No. I mean a space where you can say what needs to be said without repercussions. But it's also going in with a mindset and the knowledge of, Hey, I don't need to quote unquote attack someone. And that's because that's where a lot of this comes from is people feel personally attacked.
Brad Herda (:Well, I lived it. I know it. I'll admit to it. I did it. I was part of the problem. I get it. I'm going to admit to it. I've watched it happen. And the rooms were better when we weren't together than when we were together in certain situations.
Steve Doyle (:We all lived it. We all know it, but...
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:Mm hmm. Well, either together or you had a common goal and a common understanding.
Brad Herda (:And when we changed, when we went through our, a bunch of us to have, like 30 of us went through some more program together and created that bond. And once all 30 of us understood what it was, the individual that I decided to get along with professionally, he got outnumbered dramatically and, you know, walks away with dog tail between his legs. Right.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:between his legs, yeah.
Brad Herda (:And it was like, okay, great. yeah, I won, but it wasn't like I won, you know, but we changed the, but we changed the behaviors of the organization and it was freaking awesome, right? Where it was no longer, how do we hide everything to figure out who to blame versus let's just make sure everything's out there so we can understand how to solve the problem.
Steve Doyle (:All right.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Steve Doyle (:Right, it's not a blame game. It's let's let's figure out what the problem is. And yes, people are going to take it personally because somebody is going to view it as a this isn't my job. You're attacking me because this is my area. This is my role. This is what I should be doing. All of those things.
Steve Doyle (:But when you can have those conversations, those real conversations, yes, you're going to have to make space for the hard truths, the hard emotions that people are going to feel attacked. Those are going to have to that those conversations have to happen in order to facilitate change.
Brad Herda (:So how, okay, great. So again, we'll go back to the 60 person shop, office versus shop floor, different age groups, different thing. We got AI coming in, we've got...
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Brad Herda (:All the things that are going on fear of AI is going to take over the world take take away my job do all these things Where does an organization like that support? support their team members across the generations let everybody know that hey this is going to be okay, we need to create an environment of Remove the fear in the environment right and we've talked about we've talked about in previous episodes all of the
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:economic uncertainties and different things and the unrest and the cost of indecisions and all this, you know, not deciding still a decision. And if you don't make the decision, someone else will make the decision for you, whether it's your supplier or your customers or employees or whomever. Where do we go to turn that into forward momentum?
Steve Doyle (:yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:So it's going to sound, it's going to sound odd. It could sound cliche, whatever it is. where I see it work best is when you have. I'm going to just say a third party that can come in and facilitate the conversations, hold one-on-ones where people feel they can come in and talk, get things off their mind, get thing, work things out.
with someone, whether it's them going to getting outside support outside help, meaning, you know, it's somebody to talk to. Some people might say that's a therapist. Some people might say that's a coach, whatever. That's when it really starts to work, because truth of the truth of the matter is people don't trust you inside your own organization because people talk. Doesn't matter if it's different.
organizations and let's just say, are people going to go run in and talk to HR about all the things that are going on? No, they don't.
Brad Herda (:Some do.
Steve Doyle (:They don't unleash everything
Brad Herda (:Well for the majority yes, I can say There are are rarities where others are are letting everything go through the through it and the unofficial the unofficial official conversations are the ones that Unfortunately most time actions not taken again taken upon to go seek opportunity for for positive improvement
Steve Doyle (:For the majority, yes, it is in rare occasion.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:And it really comes down to, for the people that I would say organizations are confiding in or individuals are confiding in, there is, in my opinion, there's a responsibility of them to look at holistically, how can we help this organization? How can we help this business? How can we help this
this department? How can we help this individual? And what are those tangible actions that can happen and take place without spilling information about what has been said?
And that doesn't happen because if you go to like a therapist for whatever reason, they're not going to talk about much. They're going to they might acknowledge. Yep, we talked about this. Yep, this has been brought up. What? Well, what did they say? Not going to tell you.
Brad Herda (:That was always those fun right being leadership roles of having the conversations and knowing what's coming but yet your teammates know that or your subordinates or your You know your staff members whomever they know that shits going on and like hey, what's going on? I'm like Here's here's what I can tell you You're gonna have to read between the lines because I can't tell you everything because I just can't Okay
Steve Doyle (:Okay.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about truly making changes, not about people going through shit, not about people having issues going on. It's. Because people need a place to talk through those, regardless of which generation you know, if you're a Gen X and you're told just to suck it up buttercup and you just need to move on at some point, you need someone to talk to. But if you truly want to make change, if there's concerns into make change.
there has to be someone to turn to to help facilitate that change. And when you do it from the inside, and this is why I say third party matters more, when you do it from the inside, it falls on deaf ears most of the time. so-and-so is just raising that up as an issue, as a complaint. It doesn't always happen. There are some instances and it's all in how it's presented, but in most cases, most organizations will say, you know what?
It's just going to be my way or the highway. I don't care.
Brad Herda (:Just had that conversation this morning. Where a.
Steve Doyle (:You
Brad Herda (:Most of the production staff has walked out because of, I only hear one side of the story, right? But the story I'm hearing I'm relatively confident in. People have left, production's low, we've got now office and production all mixed together, we've got temp staff, we got lots of different things. So now we've got the whole blame game of da, da, da. I'm like, you're in a shitty spot.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:because because because you have to go out and do something about it. Otherwise it's going to implode and it's going a ticket cards and it's like. At this point, my suggestion was go block and tackle right? Just how do we win the week? How do we win the week? Now they've got one leader saying we gotta force mandatory overtime for the rest of the year to play no. No, not unless you want to lose everybody else.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-mm.
Right? Right.
Brad Herda (:That's not a them problem that people walked out. That's a you problem that they walked out. That's not a them problem. So don't be pushing your shit downstream.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Right? Right. So that's an unfortunately a majority of places that we interface with or have experience with. This is what we see. Well, it doesn't happen. won't. It's not 100 % the case, but greater than 95%. Yup.
Which is which is shocking because. We're all human. We all need someone to talk to. No, I'm just a bot. I'm just a bot. I have no feelings. Nope, nope, I have no feelings so. You know that's that's what I meant when I talked about the toxic positivity aspect, right? Where?
Brad Herda (:Are you Steve?
Brad Herda (:True. You're not wrong there.
Steve Doyle (:Rather than dealing with the truth, we're just putting lipstick on. We're just putting makeup on, putting our Sunday best on. So we have that facade of, man, I look good, I feel good. Guess what? Everything's good. Guess what? I'm not okay on the inside.
and it's okay to ask for that help.
Brad Herda (:Okay, yeah, I misread the whole post. didn't, well, I didn't read it. only saw the image toxic positivity. like, this could be a great topic. I'm like, how do we create toxic positivity? Meaning that it's contagious and it's positive and it goes forward. Not this, not what you have here. So.
Steve Doyle (:No.
Steve Doyle (:Not the, well, this is the, taboo truth series. It's the things that we, whisper, but don't say out loud. And I'm just addressing it. I'm saying it out loud. It's time to it's time for true change. Because if we, whether we're after finances, we're after productivity. We're after just being good humans, all of that matters. And it really just comes down to having a fricking conversation in truly.
being empathetic, you know, of what's going on. And I tend to be more tactical on this, tactical empathy. Thanks, Chris Voss, help me understand.
Brad Herda (:That's a fuck you just so you know if you know what help you understand help me understand means that means fuck you.
Steve Doyle (:BAAA-
Steve Doyle (:exactly help me understand.
Brad Herda (:It's like a thumbs up emoji.
Steve Doyle (:You know how but for me it's like I look at it's like help me understand. don't help me understand to move the needle forward. I don't have time to get caught up in the emotional swirl in turmoil of whatever is going on.
Brad Herda (:There's your emotional distance again.
Steve Doyle (:Listen, Linda. Listen to me. Listen to me.
Brad Herda (:can't show my empathy because I can't put emotion around it, but I can tactically tell you how to do it.
Steve Doyle (:I can I but when I'm tactical about it, I can understand. So I don't need to feel to understand. I don't need to tell you she'll tell you I'm emotionally disconnected. Yeah, the truth is I have no emotion. My my compassion card is lit up in flames gone up in smoke.
Brad Herda (:Can you?
We've already had your daughter on the show. Do we need to have somebody else on the show?
Brad Herda (:Just asking.
Steve Doyle (:So.
Brad Herda (:Fair enough, Mr. Doyle. All right, so let's see, lessons learned. Read the post to understand what you're actually talking about. Always a good idea. I thought I'd give it a shot. See what it was about. I was wrong. I was on the other side of the.
Steve Doyle (:Winner winner. See what it was about. Now you found out. Yeah, you wanted FAFO. Now you found out.
Brad Herda (:I was on the I was on the other side of line. I was taking a positive spin on toxic positivity, whereas you're the negative Nancy world of take whatever.
Steve Doyle (:You
Steve Doyle (:I'm the truth sayer. It was the truth, isn't it? Is it not? We've had we both have you had it this morning. I had it this morning. Different companies, different conversations, different. Different industries. We have this conversation all the time. I'm just not.
Brad Herda (:Whatever.
Brad Herda (:I will say I appreciate you showing up today with the passion and energy though.
Steve Doyle (:wow. All right, All right. All right. Let's see where you're going now.
Brad Herda (:All right, Mr. Roy until our next episode of Blue Cow RBS. Thank you for being here. Also, did you hear we were nominated again for Podcast of the Year from the Small Business Owner Community.
Steve Doyle (:You
Steve Doyle (:What?
Steve Doyle (:that's awesome. Yes.
Brad Herda (:Right. As a 2024 recipient, we got nominated. So we'll see if we can keep the streak alive. World domination of podcast of the year repertoire.
Steve Doyle (:Ooh.
Love it, love it, super excited for that. Very cool.
Brad Herda (:So yes, we'll keep our fingers crossed. We'll know in September if we won or not. Anyhow, have a great rest of your day, and we will talk soon.
Steve Doyle (:Yep. Yep. Excellent. Well, thank you, Brad. You too. All right.