The debate over whether the church's primary calling is evangelism or justice has been running for over a century, and Dr. Al Tizon believes it has cost us more than we know. In this episode, the lead pastor of Grace Fellowship Community Church in San Francisco and affiliate professor of missional and global leadership at North Park Theological Seminary and Fuller Theological Seminary joins hosts Dwight Zscheile and Alicia Granholm to make the case for a missional church grounded in the whole gospel. Drawing on decades of ministry in the Philippines and the United States, Al offers reconciliation as the organizing framework for mission today, one that holds evangelism, peacemaking, compassion, and creation care together rather than forcing a choice between them.

The conversation also gets at the heart of Season 6's central question: why is Christian community so hard to cultivate? Al's answer is direct. The church has largely failed at discipleship, forming individuals in private piety rather than communities that embody the values of the kingdom in every arena of life. He shares stories of congregations where holistic mission has genuinely taken root, names the false gospels most tempting to American churches right now, and closes with a candid account of where he is finding hope in a moment that makes despair feel like the easier option.

• Christ Among the Classes: The Rich, the Poor, and the Mission of the Church by Al Tizon
• Whole and Reconciled – Baker Publishing Group

Christian Witness in Smaller Membership Congregations with Jon Anderson

Missio Dei: The Church Sent with Edwin Ortiz-Rivera and Chris Steubing

Recruiting, Equipping, and Empowering Church Leaders with Clara King and Dwight Zscheile

human instinct says to keep things together and whole, right? But in our overly rational, analytical ways in the West, generally speaking, we dissect things because we want to understand them precisely, but then we forget to put everything back together. And so in their sort of dissected ⁓ state, we...

make conclusions, we make judgments on which thing is truer or more important than the other.

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Hello everyone and welcome to the Pivot Podcast where we explore how the Church can faithfully navigate a changing world. Throughout Season 6, we've been asking why Christian community is so hard to cultivate today. We've traced the cultural and historical forces at work and today we're asking a more fundamental question. What is the Church's mission in a fractured world and what is required of us to become a community that embodies it?

So our guest today has spent decades working at that question in urban neighborhoods in the Philippines, in the U.S., in denominational leadership, and now is lead pastor of Grace Fellowship Community Church in San Francisco. The Reverend Dr. Al Tizon is also affiliate professor of mission at North Park Theological Seminary in Chicago and Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena. He's the author of seven books, including Whole and Reconciled and Christ Among the Classes.

Al, welcome to the Pivot Podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to join you.

Al, churches often debate whether their primary calling is evangelism or justice. You've spent your career arguing that that's actually a false choice. Where does that either or instinct come from and what is it costing us as a church?

Yeah, I don't know if it comes so much from instinct as it does the tendency in Western culture to categorize and then prioritize things, which I believe defies human instinct. Human instinct says to keep things together and whole, right? But in our overly rational, analytical ways in the West,

generally speaking, we dissect things because we want to understand them precisely, but then we forget to put everything back together. And so in their sort of dissected ⁓ state, we make conclusions, we make judgments on which thing is truer or more important than the other. And unfortunately, we've done this to the gospel severely actually over the past hundred years.

And the cost is incalculable. ⁓ Those who decide that evangelism is more important than justice in the past have rationalized neglecting human need. ⁓ Worse, they've rationalized committing acts of injustice among peoples because the social situation, their bodies, they don't matter. It's just the soul.

And so there's actually been rationalization to commit acts of injustice, as long as those people are converted. And what I just described to you is colonial missions, which I'm really hoping that were passed, even though I still see traces of colonial missions. on the other side, those who decide that justice is more important than the story,

that we steward, ⁓ they've reduced mission to humanitarian do-goodism. Worse, they don't tell the story that sets people free from their sin-filled and their sin-ravaged life. And both of these consequences are devastating.

So you use reconciliation as a kind of organizing framework for thinking about mission. What does that word mean to you and why does it do more work than some of the other frameworks that we reach for sometimes when we think about mission?

Yeah, reconciliation. That biblical reality, that concept really messed me up. You know, this book that I wrote, Holden Reconciled, ⁓ when I proposed it, it just had a one word title. It was whole. And ⁓ what I wanted to do as someone who ⁓ committed his academic work, his practical work,

to holistic ministry, just, I wanted to add the ministry of reconciliation to my already sort of intact holistic ministry theology, right? So I wanted to just add it. And when I started to, to research it and begin to understand the work that we were doing in, in reconciliation, the concept, the idea over it just took over. took over to the point where

I started to see the components of holistic ministry in terms of reconciliation. So evangelism as vertical reconciliation, ⁓ peacemaking and justice work as horizontal reconciliation. And then ⁓ the work for the environment, ⁓ creation care, became, ⁓ or I saw it more in terms of circular.

reconciliation. And so it just took over. And so I had to add the word to the title whole and reconcile. And so I'm of the persuasion that the word or the reality of reconciliation is the paradigm for mission today in a fragmented world. Because I understand reconciliation as at least theologically, let me start theologically and then I'll go practically.

Theologically, reconciliation refers to God's desire to heal a broken world, which manifests on at least three levels of brokenness. And I just mentioned the gap between God and people, people and people, and God, people and creation. Practically, it means the hard work of evangelism, just peacemaking and stewardship. And I believe reconciliation understood and practiced in these ways

is the paradigm of mission that best equips the church to participate with God in putting the world back together. And that's why I think it's the most effective and powerful paradigm for mission or framework for mission today because we live in a world that is more broken than ever. And if we can understand reconciliation as participating with God and putting the world back together, ⁓ it becomes a powerful

paradigm or framework for the church to do mission through.

Al, I want to follow up on that. And I'm curious if you could share a story or an example of a community or church that you see really living into that today in a way that reflects, you know, that understanding of reconciliation.

Yeah, my most powerful example is a church that I worked with in Pune, India. It's called the Hindustani Covenant Church. And in my work with them, I saw integral or holistic mission at work. When I was there, right before the service, on a Sunday service, we ⁓ baptized, I believe it was in the

neighborhood of 40 people right before the service. And, ⁓ the pastor leaned over to me as I was just sort of gawking at, mean, if we were baptizing 40 people here in the United States, we call that a revival, right? ⁓ but, ⁓ pastor Steven leaned over to me and said, I'm sorry, Al, but you know, today we just have, we just have 40 people.

I said, what do mean you just have 40 people? says, well, every Sunday we usually have over a hundred people coming and we baptize them. so, ⁓ that, that told me that this church is committed to bearing witness to the story, in a way that people respond. ⁓ and if that was it, then they would not be an example of holistic ministry, but

But when I went out with the leaders of this church to the community and saw their water projects and their microloan projects and their ministry to prostitutes and ⁓ all sorts of different ministries that they were doing, they were responding to the social needs of people. so I saw compassion, I saw justice.

as just part of what they do as a church. And then environmentally too, they were very conscious of how they were, how they related to the land and ⁓ the waterways, the rivers, the ocean that they lived around and practiced a kind of stewardship that was really impressive. And so I...

I look at this church, Hindustani Covenant Church, as an example. If a group wanted to see this holistic mission or reconciliation at work, would say go to Pune, India and hang out with the folks at Hindustani Covenant Church. In the U.S. context, there are churches also that have exemplified to me holistic ministry. You might be familiar with a couple of them in Chicago. ⁓ One is the Jesus People.

USA, the Jepuzha, if you're familiar with that community, it's an incarnational ministry that's been going for the last 50 years. Now it's probably one of the last, maybe the last surviving commune that ⁓ emerged in the sort of hippie movement, the Jesus people movement. And they continue to live together, three, 400 people living together in a renovated hotel.

And they preach the gospel, they also living out the gospel in that community. Several floors of that hotel are dedicated to the elderly. There are ministries to drug addicts who are trying to get off their, you know, get over their addiction. There are halfway houses for prisoners who want to reenter into the community.

Those sorts of ministries along with the story provides another example in the US context. And then also in Chicago, was Lawndale Community Church. I don't know if you are familiar with the ministries of coach. call them coach. Wayne Gordon and the late John Perkins, they started a

a church in ⁓ probably one of the most crime-ridden areas of Chicago, Lawndale. And this church has become over the last 30, 40 years, ⁓ a beacon there. As they provide jobs, they ⁓ partnered up with ⁓ a famous successful restaurant called Lou Malnati's. It's a pizzeria.

And ⁓ so Lou Malnati's and Lawndale Community Church get together and they put a Lou Malnati's pizzeria right in the middle of North Lawndale. It's like, right, so this place has no restaurants and grocery stores are far away, but hey, they have this pizzeria. ⁓ so not only does the community, ⁓ they have access to really good pizza, but they also employ people in that restaurant.

So that's just an example of the many things that Lawndale does in that community, all undergirded by a strong faith in Jesus. ⁓ these examples tell me that, hey, this stuff that we write about, that we're committed to, it's not just theoretical. It actually lands on the ground and impacts people's lives.

Thank you so much for sharing those examples. You write about false gospels and half gospels. What are the versions of the gospel that are most tempting to American congregations right now, and what are they leaving out?

Yeah, okay, ⁓

Gospel of Prosperity

has been around a while. This is not just the current thing, it's not trendy. It is the formidable competitor to the gospel because it offers a false utopia that if you have much, then you're going to be happy. That's the promise, right? So the gospel version of that is this

idea that God wants us all to prosper and that's true, except that prosperity defined in the American way, if you will, ⁓ is not the picture of prosperity that God speaks of in the stories of scripture. And so you get this faulty theology that says

If you live right, if you have faith, God's going to make you rich, like materially rich, big houses, new cars, that sort of thing. ⁓ And that's just flat false. ⁓ it's one of those things that isn't just a, well, in this generation that dealt with the

prosperity gospel or in this generation and this generation doesn't. Now this is, this is the competitor to me of the gospel that is always there, whether, ⁓ and this is, know, this is not just an American problem. It really is a, a ⁓ global temptation and a global gospel that, ⁓ that is just flat false.

That's why actually I wrote the book, Christ Among the Classes, ⁓ the poor, the rich, and the mission of the church, because ⁓ this gospel is when unrestricted or unchallenged becomes our gospel. And we somehow feel like we're entitled to the comforts ⁓ that this world can offer. ⁓

So that's what I just want to say that that's the gospel of prosperity is always around that false. But today, today, the gospel of empire, that's what I call it in Holy Wreck and saw this the gospel of empire, better known as Christian nationalism is competing with the prosperity gospel for the top spot. So, you know, ⁓ if we look at the big three,

injustices of money, sex and power. want to add nation to that. So money, sex, power and nation. Right now there is a ⁓ spirit, if you will, that has possessed many churches ⁓ to wed the American way of life or the American dream to the gospel.

And it is dangerous. It's dangerous. It has already to me led to the war in Iran, ⁓ the ongoing genocide in Palestine, the immigration problem that's going on. These are all ⁓ rooted in this idea that America is

is Christian for one thing, and we need to protect from these enemies and in the name of Jesus, by the way. So, so you have these pastors who, are, who are, ⁓ you know, ⁓ supporting and, and, and sanctioning actions and people that are obviously anti-gospel. Well, I should say obviously to me and many others, that, you know, that

When you start blessing racism and greed in the name of Jesus and in the name of protecting America, ⁓ we need to answer to the Jesus who loved everyone, who gave example after example that Samaritans and Jews need to be together. ⁓

You know, we need to answer to this Jesus. And that's to me the gospel right now that needs to be most challenged. The gospel of empathy.

I probably just got in trouble politically with what I just said, but you know what? This is not the time to be neutral. Honestly, there is just so much going on right now that needs to be called out. ⁓ the church that is practicing holistic or integral ministry needs to speak truth to power and see that as an activity of the gospel.

So this season on Pivot, we've been asking this question of why is Christian community so hard to cultivate? And I think your previous answers are giving us some background for that. But say more from where you sit as a missiologist, ⁓ both in thinking about what does it mean to be the church in this cultural environment that we're in, but also in terms of God's mission and why God's mission has a church. And so how do you think about this challenge of cultivating Christian community?

Well, first of all, I think it's always been hard to cultivate genuine Christian community. I suppose today we can add the current obstacle of technology that's making it possible to be connected more than ever, but have no experience of human community. So we can add that as sort of a current obstacle. really, think technology is but one obstacle among many that

that serve more as channels of the real culprit of the lack of genuine Christian community. And I believe it's a failure in discipleship. That to me is the real culprit. And that transcends generations. ⁓ In our context, hyper individualism, over-spiritualization, those kinds of things have

defined our understanding and practice of discipleship, ⁓ where discipleship becomes just one program of many programs in the church that, and it shapes ⁓ individuals into cerebral doctrinaire cowboys who can do Christianity by themselves. I mean, this is, ⁓

Thanks.

To me, that's a failure in discipleship. ⁓ I understand discipleship and I wrote this down so I can get this right, but I understand discipleship as following Jesus Christ, unlearning the ways of the world and learning in the spirit, the ways of the kingdom of God to become the community of God for the sake of the world in all areas of life and in all arenas of life.

unto death. ⁓ They say that if you can't a definition in one breath, it's not a good definition. So this is probably not a good definition, but ⁓ it has it all. It has it all. It's following a person named Jesus. ⁓ It's unlearning the ways of the world, which have permeated the church and learning in the spirit the ways of God's reign.

.

kingdom of God to become not an individual, not a cowboy, but a community that embodies the values of the kingdom. And we do that for the sake of the world, in all areas of our lives, not just on Sunday church, but in all areas of our lives and in all arenas, the workplace, ⁓ politics, ⁓ family, church, all arenas.

We are God's people. So yeah, I think it's a failure in discipleship, Dwight and Alicia. It's just ⁓ the way that we teach each other. And when that's limited to individual ⁓ piety, if you will, we miss what we are called to be and do.

⁓ yeah, I can say more about, about my, ⁓ my, my, feelings about the lack of discipleship or the wrong kind or limited kind of discipleship, but I'll, I'll stop there.

you've done ministry in the Philippines and in some of the most economically diverse neighborhoods in the U.S., what did those contexts teach you about community that more homogenous church settings might miss?

Yeah. Well, Hey, I learned more about community in the informal settlements or what we used to call squatter communities in the Philippines and any other place. mean, the people that I had the privilege to work with and that taught me how to be community, ⁓ it just puts us to shame. I just remember, I remember one situation, ⁓ you know, my wife and I were, were missionaries, faith based missionaries in the Philippines.

for about 10 years and there was one year where our support was down and you know, we were feeling sorry for ourselves and had to adjust what we could buy and not buy. And I was sharing this with a pastor who is far poorer than we were. And he prayed for me.

And then came back with bags of rice and ⁓ other kinds of food to help us. ⁓ I don't even know where he got it, but, ⁓ he said, Hey, this is, you know, this is for you. And, ⁓ I, I just broke down, right? I just said, wow, you, you, you have just shown me what community is, what, what love is.

And that is just one example of so many times that I saw an experienced community among ⁓ people who are without.

And, ⁓ so that's, that's, I learned, so I learned community there. So I'll tell you a little story of the, the last place that we were in the Philippines. were in a city called Olongapo. And, ⁓ was part of supporting this, this church plant that, ⁓ was started in a informal settlement in the garbage dump community of Olongapo. So around this.

Thanks.

around the city's garbage dump was a, a, a, a settlement that formed. uh, you know, we started a church there. And, um, so this church became a, economically and culturally diverse place because the church plant, the main church planter was from Hawaii, you know, a tall white guy from Hawaii.

⁓ And so you, because of him and his family, ⁓ people from ⁓ ex-pat, ex-pats from the city started to come to the church too. So there were these very poor people, poor Filipinos ⁓ and, and middle-class Filipinos as well. And then you had this, ⁓ these ex-pats from the United States, ⁓ Australia, ⁓ what other places were represented there? Germany.

And so you had this very culturally and economically diverse place. And what, what happened ⁓ is a miracle. Really. ⁓ Sunday morning, we get together and Wednesday night and Thursday night, Thursday night, we had a ministry to street kids. ⁓ What happened was these rich, poor, rich and poor and

middle-class folk equalized and did ministry together.

⁓ Now I don't want to paint a perfect picture. It was hard and in many, I can also give you stories of failures and fights and all these sorts of things. But overall what I saw and experienced and was a part of was this community that was equalized by the gospel. And we were trying to learn each other's languages.

We had a translator whenever we preached in English, there was a translator in Tagalog and ⁓ we tried to accommodate the different cultures that were present in that church. ⁓ And economically, there was some genuine efforts to bring people up in the ⁓ garbage dump community.

⁓ and we were challenging those who had to, be generous and compassionate. ⁓ one example is that we, started a, ⁓ the Cal, we call it the Calvary action team, which was basically, ⁓ helping families in these, in this, in the, the community is called Tambahan. We, ⁓ we helped people in Tambahan to start.

micro businesses. And, ⁓ and we, we, we did our best to create a kind of village bank that they could borrow from. was their bank and they could borrow from it to start businesses. mean, like really small businesses that could, could be started with like $200 or something like that. And it really helped. It really helped. And it helped them to

get out of the garbage business. You know, that that's why they formed around the garbage because they can pick from the garbage and either clean it up or fix it and sell and sell things from it. And, ⁓ because, because some of the families had micro businesses now that, ⁓ you know, one woman bought an oven and started making, ⁓ started making muffins, banana muffins. were

so good that she had people lined up buying banana muffins. And so, you know, a lot cleaner, a lot better than picking garbage. So we had that kind of thing. That was a ministry of this church that we started, which became inter-economic and inter-cultural.

So you work as a local pastor, you pastor a local church, and I know that a lot of our listeners are kind of thinking maybe about where does this land in a local church context very practically, particularly maybe in the US. So for a pastor or leader who senses the gap between this fractured world that the congregation's living in day to day, and then the community that we're trying to form around Jesus, around

discipleship of Jesus that reflects this kind beautiful vision you've been describing. Where do you suggest people start?

This past Sunday, I've preached on a passage in Revelation and I encouraged the church at some point in the sermon to imagine, imagine a world where evil has been eradicated. And ⁓ I had a ⁓ cordless mic and asked people,

Uh, I had somebody, I had an usher run it, run it around for, people to add to a list of, of, uh, visions or scenarios of a world without evil. And they imagined amazing things. So to me, and I bring that up because I think that it starts in the imagination.

which is not a synonym for wishful thinking. In fact, I think the power of the imagination is the power that creates. It can create communities. can create just communities, peaceful communities. It starts with the imagination and not just individual imagination, but corporate imagination. And so where do you start? Where do you start in a fractured world to become an example of wholeness?

It's in the imagination. What does a whole community look like in Christ? And let's live that way amongst ourselves so that when we go tell the story, when we bear witness in word, deed, and life, ⁓ we're doing so because we've experienced it ourselves. So imagination, it's powerful. I'm guilty.

in the past of thinking of it as sort of wishful thinking. It's not anything to focus on, but I'm convinced these days that any transformational work begins with our imagination.

How can you share with us and our listeners what is giving you hope right now?

You know, the easy answer is Jesus. That's always the right answer, right? You know, Jesus, but Jesus is real. based on his track record, I really do believe he's going to return and make all things right. ⁓ That is the only place I'm finding hope because there is, I just, I don't know if I've ever been more

Thanks.

concerned, disturbed ⁓ than ever. I don't know if there's any other time in my life where I've been this disturbed. I have actually lost sleep over what's happening in our country right now. And I could easily despair. ⁓ But we're learning things in our church. We're learning how to lament. ⁓

We're learning how to grieve out loud. We're learning how to ⁓ be fueled by these things to ⁓ join protests and marches. We took part, for example, during Holy Week in a overturning tables event where ⁓ we got a permit to block off

the street in front of the immigration building in downtown San Francisco with other faith communities. And we built these real tables and we put fake money in a suitcase on these tables and we named corporations that ⁓ are funding the war in Iran, for example. ⁓

We called them out. We called them out with our church participated in this and it was a, it was a service, a worship service. And at the end, we, we literally flipped the tables. ⁓ like Jesus did when he entered Jerusalem in that, that final week. ⁓ it gives me hope that people of faith, people who, who, who love Jesus.

are willing to demonstrate and speak truth to power, to be a prophetic presence. I have hope when churches do that, when they act like Christians, followers of Jesus. That's where I find it. And that is instead of despairing.

Right? mean, I'm prone to despair. I read the news and I could just throw my hands up and say, you know, this is, we'd have no control. And so let's just live our lives and hope that a bomb doesn't fall on us. ⁓ but you know, ⁓ Jesus is coming and let's live like that. Let's, let's live, let's live like this is going to really happen that the justice and peace.

Shalom will happen in Christ. And let's bear witness to that in our words and our actions in our lives.

Well, Al, that's a wonderful note to end on. Thank you so much for casting for us a beautiful vision of the whole church taking the whole gospel to the whole world.

Thank you, thank you for having me.

And to our audience, thank you for joining us for this episode of Pivot. We always love to hear from you. Please feel free to email us at support at faithly.org. To help spread the word about Pivot, please like and subscribe if you're catching us on YouTube. Leave a review on your podcast platform or share this episode with a friend. We'll see you next week.

The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith Lead. Faith Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into full future. Learn more at faithlead.org.