Dr Paula Redmond speaks with two clinical psychologists — Dr Caroline Taylor and Dr Amber Johnston — about their personal stories of receiving a fitness to practise complaint.

They discuss what it was like to go through the process, how it affected them personally and professionally, and what they’ve learned along the way. Together they reflect on themes of shame, fear, and isolation, but also on meaning-making, growth and the importance of support.

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About the speakers:

Dr Caroline Taylor is a Clinical Psychologist in private practice. You can connect with her via Psychology Today or LinkedIn.

Dr Amber Johnston is a Consultant Clinical Psychologist and Neuropsychologist. She runs the Healthy Mind Psychology clinic. You can connect with her on Instagram or Linkedin.

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I’d love to connect with you so do come and find me on LinkedIn or at my website and do check out the ACP-UK and everything it has to offer.

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Hi, I'm Dr Paula Redmond and you're listening to the When Work Hurts podcast, which is brought to you by the Association of Clinical Psychologists, the representative professional body for clinical psychologists in the UK. In this series, I'll be covering the difficult topic of surviving formal complaints, particularly for psychologists. I'll be bringing you conversations with brilliant guests, offering their expertise, experience and wisdom on this tough topic from a range of different perspectives.

In this episode, I'm joined by two clinical psychologists, Dr Caroline Taylor and Dr Amber Johnston, to talk about their personal stories of going through a fitness to practice complaint. They speak openly about how it affected them, but also what they've learned through it and what they'd like others to know. I'm so grateful to Caroline and Amber for sharing their stories with such generosity and honesty. I hope this conversation will help others feel less alone and open up more compassionate discussion about complaints within our profession. We begin with Caroline's story.

My name is Caroline Taylor. I'm a clinical psychologist and I work in private practice now. I've been qualified for about 15 years and the complaint was about, well during COVID, so it was about three or four years ago, yeah.

Okay. And what… can you say a little bit about what the context of that was? We're not going to go into detail for obvious reasons about the nature of the complaint and who was involved, but just to set the scene for us a little bit about the context of when you received that?

Yeah. So I received the complaint in the late summer 2020, and I'd left the organisation where the complaint came from. So the complainant was a member of my team, the context of the complaint was we were in a very busy CMHT and we had a lot of the clinical leadership off sick and then absent and us not having a full team. And I was probably one of the most senior clinicians and there was a lot coming to me. And of course, when you've got a lot and you're overwhelmed, then of course you're gonna drop the ball. That's just… just normal, right? So yes, so I actually left my job because of what had happened. So I was taking ownership of my part in a difficult situation by leaving the organisation which I, that was the of my NHS career really. So that's, that was the first impact really of pre, that was pre complaint. Yes, so that was all very difficult because I really love CMHT work and I don't feel able to work in that trust again because I think my reputation is completely damaged. So it's quite difficult really. Yeah, so that's the context.

So you had a sense that… I suppose it wasn't a surprise maybe that the complaint came or was it?

Actually it wasn't really a surprise. Actually when I first left my role, I was sort of like expecting a phone… Like every time I came back from London working, I was sort of expecting a letter on the door mat. So then it passed and other things happened and then, you know, Covid happened and I sort of let go of that and then… and then it arrived by email, was just a casual email really, by something quite serious. It was the allegation.

And that was from the HCPC, you had an email?

Yeah. Yeah. A case handler from HCPC. But it says very little. It says very little. And then, so you, you know, you're kind of, it could have been, it could have been about anything, you know, or everything like it was, yeah, it was just difficult. It's just difficult, little small amount of information you don't really know the gravity of what's been said.

Does it tell you who made the complaint? Yeah, okay, so it's sort of something like this person has made a complaint against you, but that's about it.

Yes.

And what was that like to receive?

I mean, I was just gutted. I was just gutted. You know, I, actually I completely own what, that part of what, of why the complaint was there and like why it happened, like why, why there was a complaint. I suppose in a selfish way I was like, well, you know, I, I know I've given up my career in the NHS because of this, but you know, that doesn't mean anything. You know, if someone's concerned sufficiently about your ability to be a clinical psychologist, then it should be reviewed. So that's, I didn't have a problem, it was fine. It was a bit, I was gutted, but okay, let's see what happens. But it was a long process.

Yeah, so how did that unfold?

So, yeah, so I got the email through, and you don't hear anything and I instruct, as I was in therapy actually at the time because of what, because of what led to the complaint, I was in therapy because of what led to the complaint and then and the complaint. So I talked to my therapist about it, my psychologist, and they said have you got a solicitor? You need to instruct a solicitor. I was like okay, which I hadn't even thought of, so I instructed a solicitor and they were great. But then it's just like radio silence for ages because what I was told by the solicitor is that, you know, don't go poking around in it because they just want to, they didn't say don't go poking around in it, they said, you need to wait until they contact you, and that you just have to sit and wait. Because if you are trying to find out what's going on, there's a lot about your conduct during the procedure, during, so there's a lot of conduct, there's a lot of, because they're looking for a pattern of behaviour, right? So that's what they're looking for. So you have to be really careful about your behaviour. Yeah, so I was really grateful for that, that psychologist telling me that. And I did that and I got a solicitor and the solicitor was absolutely fantastic. I also took some advice from somebody outside of the country who spoke, you know, I just needed somebody that was completely not anywhere near any of it from me. And they were very helpful in my thinking about, you know, where I dropped the ball. They were super helpful. Yeah.

So there's two parts there. There's this kind of the practicalities of how you respond, how you get through the complaints process, you know, what's the right thing to do, but also an ongoing reflection about the nature of the complaint itself. What does it mean about you? How you kind of reconcile that. So it's a lot to be holding.

And that's before the allegation comes. So you say you have this, you're waiting, you know, so HCPC do their initial investigation. They say yes or no, it's worth furthering. So they went to… I knew it would go. So then they've done their investigation and then you get the allegations. And of course, they are the worst things you could ever have said in the whole world. They've picked the worst, they've found the worst of you. Somehow they've found the worst of you. And then you get to doing your defense.

And how long did that take from getting your complaint to getting the allegations?

So the complaint came in August 2020 and the allegations maybe came in June or July 2021.

Gosh, yeah. That's a long time.

Yeah. And then you do your submission and that takes quite a long time. Because you have to own everything, you have to own everything because otherwise you don’t learn. So, I have to own and reflect more than I had already. And then you're running up to that submitting the 10,000 word document for your defence. And that's another huge part of work, the labour, emotional labour, that you're going through. I learned so much about myself. Of course, I didn't want to learn a lot of it, but like I did, you know, it really, you know, I can't say it was a bad… I can't say in retrospect, I can't say it was a bad experience overall. It was just not, it wasn't, it could flow better and it could be quicker and it could be… because I just think there's a lot of hanging around for people, not just the person with the allegations, for everybody. A lot. You know, people's partners, people like the person who's complaining, their partner, there's a lot of people.

So you submitted your defence document and what happened after that?

It's really, you just wait a little while and then you get a letter through saying what they've decided. And so what they decided was that if these allegations were proven, it may count as misconduct. But my understanding was that there wasn't a great deal of evidence. Well, looking at the 100 page bundle that came, the evidence, there wasn't, it was a bit, it would have been potentially, I think, a bit word… my word against your word, like I think. So there wasn't much data to back up the complaint, I think, basically. So it was no case to answer. There was no cace to answer. And the relief was extraordinary. And I didn't quite know how much I was holding before it.

And how long did that whole thing take to get to the no case to answer?

Good six weeks, maybe more. Can't really remember. Yeah it's just a very long process for people being a lot.

Yes, so about 18 months altogether. And how… What was the impact when you look back, how did that all affect you?

I mean there was quite… I was impacted quite significantly, I'd say. So yeah, I definitely had a couple of periods, so when the complaint was first raised and then when the allegations came through, I was in very much of a bad way for about three weeks at a time. It was three weeks, two lots of three. Yeah, I was not, yeah. It was very, very challenging. Yeah, I was very scared and very ashamed and very sad about it.

And you mentioned that you were in therapy and you had support from a solicitor. Was there any other support that you were able to tap into or access?

No, but looking back, you know, I could, think, I think there was a lot more I could have tried to get some help. I could have tried to get some help from the British Psychological Society and I did have a quite extraordinary experience. I was working as a network therapist in an organisation and then as an employee at the same organisation. And they'd asked me to apply even though they asked me to apply for a job, even though they knew that I was under investigation. And I did have extraordinary, unyielding support from them, which was amazing. But it was also a huge amount of work for my line manager to be writing a lot of things about me. Then, you know, you need to get lots of people to say whether I'm an okay person. You know, letters of support really. It's quite a lot of work.

And what support do you think you maybe needed at the time and maybe didn't seek or wasn't available, what would have been helpful?

Yeah, I think just more understanding of the process and understanding how the allegations mapped onto the code of conduct. That wasn't very clearly defined. I think that maybe I should have approached the BPS to see if they could have helped me. I don't know otherwise really.

Did you feel able to talk about it with other psychologists, with friends, family? How did that?

Yeah, yes. I mean, some of it I couldn't help, but just like, I'm just crying and stuff. I mean, I wouldn't say I wasn't supported. I was supported, but it's just nobody else can understand what that feels like unless you've had that, it's like a very unique experience, I'd say. But yeah, I think it's really helpful for people to know where they can go to and I don't, maybe I just didn't look, maybe I just didn't look and I didn't see, but I think maybe some more support and awareness around that if there is support, that would be really helpful for the complainant and for the person that's made the complaint. For both parties, I think for them to have, you know, HCPC, they do give a very long, you know, they give loads of guidance. It's a very… a lot of like, wordy stuff and diagrams and things to tell you what's going to happen. But you don't get much, like, it's hard to take in and you don't, there's no empathy in it.

Okay. And you spoke about the sense of relief at when it was resolved, no case to answer. But it sounds like maybe there was some kind of, it kind of hit you maybe after that a bit that you hadn't quite realised, you said what you'd been holding.

Yeah, well I was, you know, I had to prepare to, I had to prepare an alternative income. I had to prepare for that, for that possibility. I didn't at any point think of this lightly. So I had to really think about what I would do if I wasn't allowed to practice.

Yeah. And what's your recovery been like since that?

Oh, it's taken, yeah, I mean, yes, it's taken a long time really to kind of talk about it. It was interesting when you, yeah, it was interesting symmetry when you asked me if I would do this. I just, it's a huge thing to lose your career that you've, potentially lose your career, that you've worked so hard to have. You know, has something been, whatever we've done that needs to be corrected and reflected on and thought about. I don't really believe many people would do that out of commission. I just, my sense is that, you know, it's messed up. Like you've messed up, but you didn't do it on purpose. Like it wasn't your intent to harm. So it's taking a long time to let some shame go and some guilt go and think about the future in a way that I want to go forward in. Yeah, it's taken a long time.

And I'm curious about whether you have any thoughts on if you were able to kind of go back to your younger self who was going through that at the time, what might you want to say or give her that could have been helpful?

I would give her a hug, because that version of me would know what that feels like and it would be a different hug than anybody else could give me at that time. So it would have been a very different knowing hug. And I would, I would hope I would say to her that this is really good learning for all sorts of reasons, supporting others in this moving forward or just, just really learning because that's, that's what it's for. It's for… to make sure that you don't just disregard what, what somebody's concern has been, like, this is a serious thing and it needs to be treated appropriately and so I wanted to respect that as well, rather than dismiss it like I really… I remember this is to say could you reflect on what you, what you could have would have done differently and I wrote 21 things. And sometimes I see the document in my, in my files, like hidden away and I'm like I've said that. Gosh.

Well, thank you so much, Caroline, for sharing that. And I'm just going to bring Amber in at this point. And Amber, whether you have any kind of reflections on Caroline's story there?

Just that last piece about somehow they're hidden, well I too have made sure that I will never encounter any email that will pop up, that has this need to move it away out of sight, out of mind, has been an important part of the closing off of this experience. So, I mean, again, we'll get into my experience, but I can very much empathize with so much of what you talk about and how much emotion we can see that you have, you know, that's still part of this journey of you know, the concept of it is traumatic when we think of the sense of loss, fear of, you know, our safety in terms of our integrity and our profession and our passion and the things that we love and possibly losing that, you know, is traumatic. You know, I can see that within you and, you know, I felt that and it's a really tough thing.

And also, guess, I was thinking, I suppose, Caroline, just that the courage to kind of remain open to thinking about it that you've shared in terms of how, you know, in the face of threats, it's so easy to get very defensive and, you know, really block things. But part of the work for you has, I guess, been to try and stay open to what you can learn, to what… you know, to listen, to hear, which, you know, is hard just in itself.

Which was why it was really important to have a voice outside of... So my therapist, my psychologist therapist, was quite local. So I said, oh actually, I need to take this somewhere else. And that's why I went to another. And I didn't, like it didn't feel safe. I didn't feel safe in my, in my... I just needed to reflect outside of the country. I felt that it, yeah.

It felt that big.

I also really wanted to know what I'd done, where I'd gone awry. Like it definitely, there was no intention to harm, absolutely not, but there was harm. You know, there was. For both of us, for both people.

And just, yeah, just really appreciate your courage in holding that position, but also talking about it in today's. Yeah. Thank you. So Amber, let's, let's kind of come to you now and maybe you could start by just saying a bit about who you are and yeah, and I guess setting the scene again, not going into the details, but how, how this complaint, you know, what the context was when, this complaint arrived.

So my name is Amber Johnson and I am a clinical psychologist in neuropsychology and director of Healthy Mind Psychology, so a private practice. And this complaint came to my attention through an email just a couple minutes before I held my next client case. And yes, when you see this funny thing and you look at it and then you kind of try and make sense of it and then I was in an adrenaline crisis panic state for probably three hours or so, but at least that whole next session until I was able to come back and try and read that again, just figuring out what this was I came through. It really, that was a really tough moment that I remember very clearly, which is funny because I actually don't remember a lot of details of this whole process. That's one that I do. I remember. But the complaint was through a hospital that I was working at. From not the patient that I was seeing, but from the family of the patient I was seeing. And I was not the only one who received the complaint. There were multiple people in the facility who got a version of it. And it was about a failure to safeguard, so a serious allegation about a failure to safeguard. And the client was actually no longer at the hospital either. And so that was another part of this. All of this came kind of out of nowhere, really.

And so how did that unfold? How did the process unfold for you? Or can you remember?

So, some of the other context was that, you know, I was employed with the hospital for this role, but it was a part-time role while I was also beginning private practice too. So I'd only been in private practice for probably 18 months or so at the time. And I think for anybody who has made that jump, you know, it's quite a transition and it takes a while to learn things. So for instance, all the different groups that are out there now for private practice on Facebook or different… I wasn't in any of that. You know, I still kind of knew my hospital people being the people who I know and support. And there weren't really other psychologists there. I had my previous place of work, which I had recently, not that recently, two years ago or so had left, and of course I had access to people there that I knew. But again, it wasn't the same as now how much I am involved with other professionals. So it was a very lonely process. And people at the hospital didn't really know what to do with me in a general sense. You know, the psychologists that came in and out, and there was some confusion around all of that. So I think that was part of this context.

That you're quite isolated professionally?

There's a lot of isolation professionally, yes. I mean, in a way there wasn't because we had the others who were part of the team, but they all were in different roles. But also there was a real consideration that we needed to have a bit more silo because the complaint was coming across multiple people. You know, we had to be really careful that there wasn't any gossiping or something unprofessional that would be happening, which is so easy to fall into. So I think those who are involved really did take that seriously, that we had to be, you know, almost like we couldn't use our social support in the same way, potentially, because this had come across multiple people. And so I received the email and actually quite quickly after, so I guess I had a different experience, quite quickly after, I did receive what, it might have even been in the email itself, what the actual allegations were. So I could see who had made it and what the allegations were. If it wasn't at the same time, it was quite quickly after. And so then the only thing I… now I know that I didn't know what to do. They did instruct that you needed to let the hospital system, the director, your line manager know right away and that they would need to provide some detail. So I was able to do that. And again, my hospital, without going into detail, the complaint, the complaintee, whoever makes the complaint…

Complainant.

Yeah. Complainant. There was lots of difficulties. They were known to the hospital and there was lots of difficulties as probably a system with how they came in and then some of the challenges that perhaps were outside of the scope and expertise of the unit in general. And so in that sense, there was learnings across the board for everybody from, Admissions Director to CEO, to everyone around what had happened with this wider situation. And so they were very supportive of me and knew that there were others that were receiving this too. And so then I just had to go through all the notes, everything I could find, just data collecting. But I didn't really know what else to do about this. I did end up calling the BPS and I called my insurance and neither were able to support me. And I don't really know why, and I can't remember which one, so I don't want any liability here, but one of them said to me, sorry don't you have somebody at the hospital who can support you? And to me that was awful that I was paying for services and for support and contribution for what I thought would be these kind of incidents and to be that line, another one I remember, sorry don't you have somebody at the hospital who could support you, was so even further isolating. You know, I just felt like this was completely down to me on my own. So what happened was that once I got all this information together, it was just a, I had the complaints and the specifics and it was about a failure to safeguard and then a few other little like minor points that were connected like note taking, something around note taking. And there was a couple other things but they were like these little minor things that were involved with the big one. And so I got all my notes and I put everything together and I put some kind of response that was a little briefer of one to just, you know, respond to that. And they took information from the hospital who also had to send off all things and that was when we went into COVID. So it was at that point that then everything shut down. So everybody shut down, the hospital unit shut down. So everything had discontinued at that point. And that meant that, including my ability to really contact anybody. So then I just waited. And during this time, I was having supervision. So I had my senior supervisor and I also had my peer supervisor, a friend that's a colleague that we have very similar, that we have very similar like, trajectories of career. So those were two different supervision kind of strands that I always use and had used during this time to really think about what I was supposed to do and how to respond to this. But during that, I waited forever. And I called a couple times and every time I called HCPC to just say, anything happening? I might get something from a case handler. And then I got something else saying, well, the last case handler quit, so you're being passed on and then I would call and nobody would call back and then I would talk to somebody. I talked to a one case handler who was so lovely, who was just like don't worry about this, these are things that we just need to do our job. We need to go through the process and that's what you just need to respond as we ask and you know really just containing of you know, this is not something to panic about, we just are going through what we need to go through. So I knew I had a complaint to respond to like it met the threshold of having to answer to it. And then I heard nothing else from anybody forever. Up to a point where I started to wonder, like, has it just gone away? Like, did they lose it? Is it just not part of, I mean, is the whole world imploding anyway? So, like maybe, maybe this is apocalyptic now and nobody's worried, I don't know, like it just… it was really just a time when it's just left on your own at home, isolated from everybody anyway. It was a really strange thing.

I was just going to ask what impact that had on you? Did you have the sense of like, well, oh God, this is really scary? Or did you have a sense that it's frustrating, but it's going to be okay? How did that impact you?

I think that, so I guess the situation around the complaint itself was one that was a little bit different, I think, than Caroline, the one that... My feeling around this was that I had done wonderful. In my view, we had such a great relationship with this patient. But that there was, and there's so much compassion that I really pushed forward and there was a lot of work that we had done and there's a lot of movement and a lot of lovely moments of rapport and connection that the people who made the complaint would never have known or seen or would not have been part of this. And the truth was that the formulation was that there was retaliation, and maybe even some evidence of secondary gain by doing this, especially across a number of groups. So this mismatch between potentially doing something for a purpose versus the impact on a person's life that that had, when I felt I had given so much, it was those pieces. So I was clear that I had made some mistakes and one of the biggest mistakes I had made, which is a tricky one because I still wrestle with this a little bit, was that when there was a safeguarding concern revealed, I had taken steps to go through the process of safeguarding and went to my unit manager, who was also the safeguarding lead and reported the information and took, did what I was required to do and the guidance from that lead. But what I didn't do was write in the formal, what I call public medical notes, the details of that confidential piece of information from our session. So when others receive that big chunk of notes that anybody had access to within the system or anybody who was coming into the system, including people who got a hold of the notes and then said, well that was not written in there. So therefore it was a failure of reporting and a failure of documentation, which was not quite accurate. So it became down to how to be proving these things and including going through supervision, even coming up with things like, well, maybe we should tape an envelope and seal it and put something and write it in there and then seal and then, know, tape and seal that in and these are the things that were like the learning points from it, which again, it's still really tricky because this is a systems question, you know. But anyway, so I felt that actually the main and the more egregious parts of it I could defend but just needed other people to write the letters and to say that I had done the right things to demonstrate it. So, and then there was this piece that I had failed at, but I did for a reason, and there was a formulation I had around all the patients and the reasons for the behaviors and why this complaint was coming through. So it was just, there was a lot there. So I guess throughout that whole process, I felt like I would be able to defend something, but I didn't know how, I didn't know when, I didn't know what the process would look like, if they would find holes in things, if it was sufficient. If I was potentially guilty of something, how bad would that be? Like, what would that mean? So, yeah, I guess the answer to the question is a little bit different because I had to sit with so much uncertainty for such a long time. And the truth was, I was actually really, really angry. That was what was below everything else, was the sense of absolute injustice and the fact of putting in so much to somebody and being punished in that way for a gain, you know, that it just felt so awful to me. Now, I can also say that I can also see that that is a singular way of viewing the situation and that there would, if there was a reason for gain, there are a lot of reasons for wanting to gain. You know, at the end of the day, there's a very difficult situation that's been life changing and everybody is trying to just do their best in this world to get their needs met. So trying to find some of that compassion as well, but yeah, I had to sit with a lot of anger. I mean, I remember times during that period of just noticing myself sitting on the couch in the dark, just ruminating for who knows how long, you know?

Yeah. And so how did it kind of resolve and how long did that take in the end?

So a little over a year after getting that, the something that I needed to answer to, I then got something that said you have 30 days to submit your evidence. So, which again I guess my fault maybe, I kind of just hoped you know, that it had all just disappeared, but I got straight into supervision and actually my supervisors both were willing to write statements of support for me and how much reflection we've gone through and how much you know, we've taken learning points and one of them went through a wonderful piece of advice which was like to answer this you take the HCPC code of conduct and you just go through what are the areas that have been hit and anything that you think you have or haven't done and you just structure it out just like that. And for me, I think that was the most valuable piece of information about how to write this because I wrote something first. I wrote a defense and it was a, it was piece of creative writing for a therapist. It was not something to submit to the HCPC. But it was just this whole like, mess. And I needed to do it, it was probably a really good exercise. But you know, my supervisors, I thought that out. Now let's take this and let's structure this into a way that just matches up with each of the criteria, the areas where you feel that you have a defense for, what you did do, what's outside, the areas where you could see that there was a learning point or something that, you know, you've been, and to have that openness and put that into writing as part of your defense. And so I then submitted that, I submitted letters from the supervisors, I submitted letters from the safeguarding lead who, you know, could confirm that I had taken all hospital procedures. And, you know, then wrote the formulation of the clients as well, including where some of the trickiness had come into and why, you know, putting these things into the public documentation has been, was a difficult bit. And I think they then had 30 days to respond to that. There was a possibility it could go to panel, which is the group or, but they responded at that point to say that I was cleared of the major considerations. The one was the note taking, but that they felt that my reflections demonstrated sufficient learning and openness to consider that I did what I needed to do following it. So it was closed at that time.

Yeah, and what was that like to have that closure?

Well, to be honest, the thing that was most, I mean, it was a massive relief to know, and it was a huge piece of work, like you're saying, Caroline, a 10,000 word, or yeah, it just feels like it was this huge body of additional work to do, to go back through everything, to go through the HCPC standards, to write this big case conceptualisation and formulation. And to submit all that was a huge amount of energy and activity on top of the work I had been doing and with so much of the emotional toll too. So to have all that done was just such a huge, huge amount of relief. But they then say at the end that if you receive an additional complaint in three years following the conclusion of this, they could reopen this case, which I mean makes sense, they want to make sure that there isn't, you know, some kind of repetition of offense or, or... So I get it, but that just meant that there was three more years of having this thing held over you potentially. And given that the original complaint came so out of the blue with somebody that I wasn't actively seeing, it just sets up this lack of predictability that at any point, at any point, you never know. And I think that's always going to be the thing that stays with me. Two things, my notes. My notes. Notes, notes, notes, notes, notes, all the notes, supervision notes, all the notes. And then the second is just knowing that, you know, you always have to be thinking, you always have to, you know, just be on your toes for remembering the guidelines and remembering what you're there to do and being able to think through and justify, you know, your activity and how you do it and why. And yeah, I just think that that's been kind of the lasting… But I actually then ended up supervising somebody else through their HCPC complaint, which was interesting to be on the other side, on the other foot, and probably something cathartic as well, because, you know, somebody is… it’s such a vulnerability, such a vulnerable place to be. And so, you know, anybody going through these complaints to recognise that it's, it does happen and that we're here for each other, to support each other through these terrible things. It was something was really nice to be able to help someone else, you know, to go through that and help with the shame and help with the vulnerability and remind them that you don't go through 10 years of university to just be, you know, making all kinds of, being an error to humans. Like, there's a lot more to what's coming on in here and how can we work through it. And I felt like that was a really nice way to go. But at the end of that process for that person, they actually decided to discontinue private practice. It wasn't worth it once you got through one of those.

Yeah. Yes. And what, that question about if you could sort of go back in time and say or give something to your younger self when you're in the midst of this, what would that, what might that be?

I don't think I did enough to get support because I think there was so much shame and also not knowing what to do. Now I don't know if that would have been something I could have said to myself. I feel like I learned along the way that there are all these different ways with which we can connect with other people and other professionals. But yeah, trying to make that more clear to more psychologists, potentially even those who are well embedded in employment systems, just for letting people know that these groups are out there and they are there to be on your team. I think that was a big piece of it. I think also something about, I remember when I was going through some of the medical notes, looking over every single word and looking at what had happened and how I responded. And I would just be like, yes, I wrote that. I wrote that down. So there was these moments of going through... yeah, I got that! It was something about trusting myself, know, trusting myself that I did actually think through a lot of this at the time and just because I couldn't remember it doesn't mean that, you know, I hadn't been making good decisions at the time of making them and trying to put them down into a way that made sense. So there was something in that as well, you know, me thinking back and going, my goodness, I did everything wrong and actually looking at it and going, no I didn't, no I didn't. I was following a lot of the procedures here and I was thinking through and I was making decisions and I just need to justify them. But that's different than, you know, being totally out of it, an unethical practitioner, you know. But that's what you feel. You feel like they're saying you are an unethical practitioner, you defend yourself. And so you take that on.

Yeah, thank you, Amber. Just turning to you, Caroline, any kind of thoughts, reflections, responses to Amber's story?

I would just say that the parallels are quite extraordinary, really. Like, it's very similar processes and especially in relation to, you know, what, what the concerns were about, what the complaints were about were, were both about omission rather than commission, right? Like, it's interesting that that is the case. In some ways, I'm sort of thinking, well, isn't this great? Isn't this great that we've got this structure to help us when we're going awry, right? Like, look, it's great, but it just needs to be quicker. And also, like, because Amber also talked about the shame. And I think, you know, to have that shame resolved a lot quicker would mean that the practitioner could bounce back quicker and then be more effective in the workplace. Like, it's not just about the impact it has on us personally. Like it impacts on how we are. We're cautious, like during that whole 18 months, the caution I was having, like I was being so cautious. So, you know, to a neurotic point. So I think it's not just happening in the here and now. It's like, what is the legacy for the complainants and the case handlers? Like, what's happening? I find that really interesting that we're so ashamed and we're ashamed for a long time. But also just that it was, you know, there was neither of us had no intention to do, there was no intention of harm.

And thinking, I guess, just more broadly, I wonder, you know, you've mentioned some things like, you know, it being quicker, that, you know, the length of time it takes is clearly a big problem. And you mentioned, Amber, kind of your HCPC case handler changing and just not getting much response and, you know, I guess being in the midst of COVID as well, I'm sure it didn't help. But are there other things that you think about the system and the process that could be different?

I mean, I do, I think the same as you just said, Caroline, you know, this process needs to be there. It serves a very important function. You know, it's the same as, you know, for any form of hearing and, you know, organisation that requires some way of being able to sort through and have accountability. I feel though that there just seems to be, the quality of sides doesn't seem to be there. You have this big organisation that is terrifying but maybe a little chaotic. And then I think you have what's often a lone practitioner not knowing clearly what to do or where to go. Even if this body could do more to be able to help somebody know what resources they should consider. Anything that just helps feel like there's a little bit more weighing up, I think, of the big organisation that feels like it's out to get you versus the lone person wondering, how did they end up here and what to do next.

And it really struck me Amber, what you said about, you know, calling the BPS and calling your insurance and not getting any support. That's really scary. And I know as, you know, as a counterpoint that the ACP do offer support to their members and, you know, they have sort of, both kind of support on a sort of emotional psychological side, but also being able to support with the more practical things and signposting to legal advice and, you know, accompanying you know, members to the panel and stuff like that, which, you know, I think is, I'm really grateful to know that that exists. Because I think you sort of assume, you know, like you did that, you know, that's what a professional body is there for. But then to discover at the moment you need it, that that's not true is scary as well.

And it felt like a solicitor felt too much at the time. Like that felt like, especially when you're going through a submit some… so my first contact and then submitting this evidence and it felt, I didn't get it. I didn't know what was supposed to happen. So again, my big evidence and all my real, that came after I had a case to answer. I didn't know that it should happen beforehand because all that was really quick. So there wasn't in my head, why would I have a solicitor involved? Like it just didn't make sense to me. And when I call them and nobody, you know, don't you have a hospital to go to? That means that, you know, obviously I didn't want to make it bigger than it needed to be. So I think it was just confusion of what do you do? What are the steps? What’s the process here? And gosh, if I would have submitted my rant about this case, I wouldn't have known.

No. And I guess that is, I suppose, part of why, one part of why it's so important to have conversations like this, that, you know, we are isolated and shamed into not talking about it, then it's hard to know. Any other thoughts from you, Caroline, about what?

There's a call to arms here, that's what I'm thinking.

The fight response.

Well you know, but both of us felt unsupported. I'm sure lots of people, that means that lots of other people felt unsupported. So I think that maybe we should be talking about it more and then there's more awareness then of how to manage what it's like, what the sorts of things so that people can cope. Because if they're like, I just hid for three weeks, and like was terrified. So, I just think, let's support people, let's support each other. That's my line, that's what I'm taking away. I'm like, well, we've got to do something. We've got to do something. I mean, we can't ask the HCPC to change, but we can change as a profession in the way that we help each other.

And to hear, I guess, also from people like both of you that it's survivable, that there is kind of light on the other side and I think that's really helpful. So yeah, I really appreciate you both coming on to talk about it.

Well thank you for having us and for pushing, I think, both of us into feeling safe to be able to talk about something that was really tough. And like you said, if more of us are sharing, and I know there's a group set up on Facebook for those who are going through this kind of thing, and you know, I think that the more that we can kind of turn to each other to create more sense of this happens, this is normal, and we are human and we will make mistakes and that's okay and we can own them and we can learn from them. And you know, one of the bits for me was that, you know, HCPC did say, well, you have shown that you have thought about this, you've sought guidance and you've reflected and you've made practice changes and that's good enough for us. You know, that was a really important piece of this. It wasn't just punishment. It was actually, okay, you've demonstrated that you are going to be a better practitioner now, so we're happy with that. That to me was something really interesting. And I think it's important for everybody out there. You know, we could have made mistakes and we can own up to them and show growth and they are happy that we are doing that.

So thank you, Paula, for bringing it to everybody, you know, like on the podcast. That's so, because that's the way of letting people know about how the process works and that there is help and you can go and talk to people about it. So that, yeah, that's great. Thank you so much for packing that tricky topic.

Thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, please support the podcast by sharing it with others, posting about it on social media, or leaving a rating or review. I'd love to connect with you, so do come find me on LinkedIn or at my website, and do check out ACP UK and everything it has to offer. All the links are in the show notes. Thanks again, and until next time, take good care.