Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Xhafer recounts his experiences at Star Trek Las Vegas and Laura an Xhafer play some more plot poker. Meanwhile, civil war has broken out on Minbar and Delenn attempts to make a deal with Neroon to broker peace. Sheridan plays mind games with the League of Non-aligned Worlds in Babylon 5 - Season 4 Episode 13: Rumors, Bargains, and Lies.

Hey listeners, this episode was recorded during the Writer's Guild of

America and SAG after a strike of 2023.

While this podcast is a labor of love, shows like our Dear

Babylon five should not be.

We believe that the creators of artwork, like our favorite shows,

deserve to be fairly compensated for their work without their labor shows

like ours would not exist, and Jair and I wouldn't have become friends.

We stand with the labor.

Yes, we do.

Hello and welcome to Who Are You?

This is a Babylon five watch cast hosted by two former strangers.

Now, friends who've gotten to know each other while rewatching a

favorite show from their childhood.

Babylon five.

I'm Jair.

And I'm Laura and Jair.

I wanna know about Star Trek, Las Vegas.

Tell me all about it.

Yeah, I just got back.

Unfortunately, you couldn't go this year, understandably

uh, with, you know, the baby,

right.

The tiny person.

But yeah, I went with Beth again, my partner.

we went last year and met you for the first time in person.

I think we said that in POD last time.

Yeah, we did.

We did.

Yeah, and it was her grand time again.

I got to do a bunch of panels, which I always really enjoy.

What got to do all kinds of stuff.

They had a little Lego building contest this year.

Oh, that's fun.

fun.

I did the Star Trek Wines tasting again,

Mm-hmm.

like we did, we did the Rolin Ale last year.

This year I got to try all the different Star Trek wines.

And it was a good play because I went at the.

Back third of it, and this is your pro tip listener.

If you're at Star Trek wine tasting don't show up till the back third because

that's when they stop asking people to leave and start asking people to get

back in a line to go through again so they can empty the bottles and go home.

Uhhuh, you heard it here.

Pro tips.

So I got loaded for free that night.

It was a good time.

I did, so last time we had gotten, actually you weren't drinking, but had

a number of like $30 cocktails, $20 cocktails around Las Vegas on the strip.

Mm-hmm.

Not this year.

Oh,

Drove out to a grocery store.

Day one.

Well, Ubered.

'cause we didn't rent a car and bought a bunch of bottles of like Prosecco

and Simply Peach and like a fifth of gin and some mixer and stuff, and

just rode that through five days.

So smart.

Yeah, our booze budget was, I wanna say, $60 for the weekend is

what it ended up coming out to be.

Uhhuh

And it, I mean, you just, you fill up your water bottle with

tonic and gin and it looks like water and no one says shit and

Uhhuh.

throw a lime in there.

No one's, no one, no one questions a lime in a water bottle.

Yeah.

So had a really good time with that.

Went to the PRCA Banika and hung out with a bunch of friends of Desota, which

are listeners of the Greatest Generation podcast of which Adam guested on.

Well, I, the episode aired two weeks ago, but for us, it was a month and a half ago.

We recorded that episode.

So I got to chill with him and Ben in person for a bit, which was fun.

And a handful of our other friends that we've made at that convention

that we both met last year.

Shout out Jake and Rizzo and Brie

Yeah.

and everyone.

It was a lot of fun hanging out with everyone and everyone

in the discord as well.

So that was a grand old time.

Yeah, it was interesting.

I went not knowing as many people there ahead of time as last year, so it

kind of put me in the position to make new friends and be a little bit more

social with like my neighbors and our assigned seating at the panels and stuff.

I think, I think last year there was still a little bit of like pandemic

hesitation from people and there weren't quite as many and maybe people didn't

come because it wasn't at the Rio.

I don't know.

But

I will say,

like more this year,

I thought Bally's was kind of a trashy hotel when we

had stayed there last year for it.

The Rio is significantly worse.

Oh boy.

I look forward to that next year

Yeah.

The pillows are miserable.

I'm, I'm legit bringing like an extra bag just to have pillows next time.

Noted.

That's important to me.

Pillows are important.

Yeah.

I, I might not, if I didn't have status, if my bag wasn't free, I might not bother,

but because it is, I definitely am.

yeah.

Well thank you for all the pictures and every story you put in our group chat.

You know, I wondered if I was gonna feel a little like jealous of not

being at Star Trek Las Vegas this year and like if I was gonna feel

sad when I saw stuff, but I didn't.

I was really happy to see it and happy to see my friends having fun and it

just felt like included when you guys thought of me and sent me something.

So thanks.

I appreciate it.

that little group chat, the US has vicarious uh, was a, was a highlight

of the con for me as well because you guys weren't there and you know, and

Ben was in that group chat as well.

He wasn't there.

And next year though, we're getting a big group section and we're all

gonna sit next to each other and shoot the shit during the panels.

It's gonna be a lot of fun.

I'm really looking forward to

we're gonna be the hecklers.

We

Oh, I mean, yeah, if they bother bringing Beltran back,

we'll let 'em know how we feel.

Just sit there in Ms.

T three K a Star Trek convention.

Yeah.

Please.

Let's do that.

Excellent.

Well, we have more to do, Jair.

I think we need to uh, try to design an episode of Babylon five today.

it's time for some plot poker.

Yeah.

Which means I need to open up some cards,

I got four packs of great war and then I snuck into our next box

and grabbed one of Shattered Dreams, which will be the next expansion we do.

Should anyone actually follow this game and know or care about that?

My great wars have really been duds, I think.

Oh, but I got another Riss just now.

We should, we should go through all of our zhi at the end of this,

See how many ZR we ended up with?

Different

Do we have the full set?

You said there's like, what is it?

Is it seven different ones?

I think so.

Yeah.

However many letters are in his name.

There's one with an apostrophe in every different place, but they're

spread out over several sets.

Oh,

Yeah.

I got altruism.

That's a good card.

And I was looking at our list of what we've, what cards we've had.

Possibly non exhaustive.

I'm not totally sure if this is everything, but it was like, if

we are, if we put Atheris in every possible scenario, I think we've

only used him in character so far.

He could also be a problem, a solution, and a twist.

Oh, you, yeah, we should explain the,

Oh yeah.

How the game works.

While we're going through these packs.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, I got veer looking at Mr.

Morden's head on a pike.

The name of the card is Let Stray No More.

Yeah, so how this works is we are open up a handful of packs here

and we divvy them up into four different possible piles of cards.

We've got kind of like characters or like people, things going on arriving on the

station or doing stuff on the station.

Uh, We have problems, we have solutions, and then we have twists.

And so we'll draw one of these at random each to form the apo and b plot of

an episode of Babylon five, which we will then rate on a scale of babylon's

one to five, as is our prerogative.

I got one called Machiavellian politics.

Ooh, I got mu Thai exhibition.

I'm gonna put that in solutions 'cause that's

got a whole bunch of like unnamed characters in this one.

All, all that have na names now on the cards, but I cannot

pronounce them to save my life.

Oh, Lando Mal right on the top there.

oh, nice.

I don't think we've used Londo yet.

It's like his OG card too.

He hasn't been used as a character.

It looks like he's come up as a problem perhaps.

Hmm.

Yeah.

I feel like my great war box was just not as good as the previous two boxes.

I feel like my shadows box was full of bangers.

Okay, well, you know what, I'm just gonna give it a go

with what I got and what'll see,

and we'll be glad that real shows have real writers and

not randomized card games that

choose their

plot details.

If that wasn't what the strike was all about, I'd say it'd be

fun to put our elements into an AI and see what it writes about it.

But I think that AI figures a little bit into that strike, and

I don't want to cross that line.

So I'm the apl.

Let's see what I get.

Okay.

Our episode is gonna open with Minister Verini.

So I believe he was the minister that Londa was talking to shortly after or

not rfa, shortly after Cartia died.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's the guy who took over when Orlando pieced back to Babylon

five, he's the one who's like all

No, no, no.

That's um, that's minister.

I got him here too.

Verano

Oh.

is the one who took over.

Verini is like the one who was security kind of guy, I think

Oh, okay.

or, or maybe he's the guy that, oh man, we're just really messing it up here.

I think he's the guy that came to evaluate between Cartage and rfa.

Actually,

Okay.

I don't know if you can see his little picture there,

Oh, there we go.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's the Cartage and RFA administered, they, these

centara have too many ministers.

This is the problem.

So Minister Vedi is visiting Babylon five when there is an accident.

Some kind of explosion according to this card.

And the solution to the accident is our favorite guy.

Yeah,

Zaris.

ris.

So maybe Zaris comes up from Epsilon three.

Drawl is really worried about this accident that could, you know, maybe

it's gonna destabilize Babylon five and it's going to crash into Epsilon three.

And so he sends up Zaris on a shuttle to fix the things that are broken.

just

The, the spinny things, I don't know, you know, and uh, the

twist at the end is there's a glitch

Oh no.

there's something that could come up in a further episode because

there's a glitch in the system that Zaris maybe didn't fix it all.

Or maybe he, yeah, he fixed it too good and brought that AI back.

yeah, so there's something that's still on the board for maybe

later in the season or next season.

I.

All

well what's our B plot then?

I got a real bummer of a b plot.

Oh, no, this is a heavy episode then.

a, he, this is a heavy episode, so the B plot involves the endless shock.

So the

Okay.

Group of miba rangers specifically based off the card it specifies,

Okay.

and they.

Are running around and they find a lon planet killer.

Goodness,

And so they have to figure out how to handle this.

I assume this is after the LANs are left.

This is like an abandoned planet killer that was damaged or something.

And they're just like, well, this can't be around.

Like no one can fuck around with this thing.

And the solution to this problem is altruism.

Oh, no.

So this group of rangers pilots their white star up against

the cores of the planet killer.

There's like a big hole in it or something, and they go and they fly in

to get next to it, and they self-destruct their white star in an act of altruism

to destroy this planet killer so that no one can grab it and learn its secrets.

Yeah.

That is heavy.

And the the twist.

Is the Rebirth ceremony, the maari one from a big change.

And the, the last time we saw this, it was the command crew getting their

new uniforms and the previous time was at the start of the station.

So the big change here is accepting that they're really in the third

age and starting to take stewardship of the galaxy and what that means.

Mm-hmm.

And the Rangers uh, slightly alter their symbol or something.

They put a little like thing on the gem to remember the sacrifice of those who

uh, died to get them to the third age.

Okay.

Yeah.

This is a intense episode with lots of fireworks.

Yeah, lots of c g i.

This, this budget is well out of hand for Babylon.

Five.

They could not afford the sci-fi.

This budget.

They can't afford this episode.

Mm-hmm.

Well, okay.

Lots of pyrotechnics.

How would we rate this episode on the scales of one to five Babylons?

I feel like I like this episode.

Yeah, I do too.

this is a really good episode.

I'm gonna go ahead and give this a Babylon four outta five.

Yeah, I agree.

I think that I'm really grateful.

That Zaris and altruism did not show up together because it would

be terribly sad to lose Zaris.

Yeah.

There's only eight left where we're at right now.

Well we can mark off another square for Zaris.

Mm-hmm.

He is now been into, and that's what the show always needs more of.

More Zaris.

Okay.

Well, you know what?

This episode has a distinct lack of.

Zr.

Yeah.

It's a, it's a shame.

It does have rumors, bargains and lies though

And in spades, I would say

for sure.

Season four, episode 13.

Rumors, bargains, and lies.

title's really on the nose, guys.

We open on the senior staff getting breakfast.

Has Sheridan is just like there, like he's got a plate in front of him,

Mm-hmm.

Half Eaten,

he's ignoring that plate for the most part and he's taken up most of

his table and chairs to put his feet up.

Like there's not enough room for the rest of the senior staff to sit with him.

So they take a table next to him.

Yeah.

And just sort of talk in his direction.

Yeah.

Zach comments on getting the sari and Narn to agree and they discuss

until Franklin notes that it feels like they're constantly starting

over, which causes Sheridan to laugh.

Sheridan is super agro here.

Like, can you imagine you are at work,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

your boss and all of your boss's peers are sitting at a table.

Your, their boss is at a table across from them sitting in silence as

they're having a conversation until he busts out laughing, starts banging

on the table and starts shouting,

Yeah, I can't imagine this.

I work with bankers.

oh my God, I hope you've got better HR than Babylon five, because this

is the moment where they really need that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's doing lots of, lots of uh, big moves here.

Big motions.

Yeah.

He's uh, trying to frighten the bear, as it were,

Mm-hmm.

make it run away.

I love that he's sitting there thinking, and it's just all over his face.

Every thought that he's having, he's having a, a visible reaction

to 'cause that's definitely a state of being that I identify with.

Like, I know that I have been in my office and spoken out loud.

Well, I'll by to, I'll, I'll to myself loud enough for others

to wonder what I'm doing.

I'm sure I have banged on a table at some point, but not in front of people.

Does that make it better?

I don't know.

It definitely does make it better.

Yeah.

But Sheridan's formulating an idea here of how he's gonna get the other

races to do what he wants them to do.

Yeah.

He's marinating on something.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But meanwhile, Delaine and Lanier are headed home on the White Star, and

Yeah.

they're concerned that Civil War has broken out on Minbar.

We get civil war to theme

Hmm.

when we get back.

Delaine and Lanier are in a conference room, Delaine Reminisces about her

childhood in Yor, which is the name of the capital city, which they don't say in this

episode and haven't said yet in the show.

So don't, don't think you're crazy for not knowing it.

yeah, I certainly didn't

I wanna call something out here in this scene.

Before we get too far, did you notice that in this episode we get

the best possible guest actor named.

Name and named role.

No

We have a guy whose name is Guy Sinner who is

religious number one guy, sinner

religious number one.

Uhhuh.

I saw that and I was like, ah, that is just Chef's Kiss.

Perfect.

great.

Ghislaine is having a reckoning with her personal culpability

and causing the Civil War.

Mm-hmm.

Lanier tries to reassure her with prophecies and she's

like, bitch, we knew Velon.

Yeah.

And he only knew that that was gonna happen because he saw me do it.

Like maybe if I hadn't done it, it wouldn't have been a prophecy.

Like time travel's weird guys.

Lanier is like, it was gonna happen anyways.

And uh, what my theory here presupposes is that Sinclair saw the writing

on the wall of the Civil War having spent significantly more time on Miba

than Delaine in the last few years.

Mm.

Yeah.

He's a little more plugged in at home.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good point.

Good point.

I was wondering when she talked about thinking about her city

in flames do crystals burn

It depends on what they're crystal of

yeah.

True.

sometimes.

Yes.

I would hope that those crystals that we built those buildings

out of is maybe the non-flammable crystals, but I guess not,

They weren't really worried about that on memoir

Mm-hmm.

Right.

'cause menari don't kill menari, right?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Makes sense.

Makes sense.

Delaine asked Lanier to reach out to Naru to try and work this shit out.

Londo and Sheridan talk about keeping the white stars a

secret and Londo doesn't get it.

Just like country Western or repo and zdi.

Uhhuh,

Sheridan tells Zalando to trust him.

Like Sheridan can't just say, how do you not understand?

I'm doing something sneaky.

right?

If anybody understands something sneaky, it should be londo,

right?

just, Hey, no, I'm, I'm pulling a thing.

This will be great.

It'll come together.

Yeah.

I'm doing a thing.

Did you notice that Lao's quarters look like they got a nice upgrade?

They, they look fancy in the background.

I wonder where that came budget came from slash what happened?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, he's being sent back to Babylon five after

like, Deposing the emperor,

Yeah.

Moving his way up in the ranks, so maybe he's got more rent money.

Oh, I meant the show's budget.

I know, I, I was just trying to give an inworld

like explanation, but Yeah.

I

a redress of his room on Sari Prime and that they

didn't have time to finish it?

Could be, because it is definitely bigger too than like the quarters sets

we've seen, like, it seems bigger.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know, but nice glow up.

Back with the Miba, everyone from the religious and Warrior casts are

lining up like the sharks and the jets.

Well, I wanna talk about the composition of this shot

Yeah,

that's Mark the calendars.

very granular here for me.

We've lining up like two gangs, right?

Nero stays behind his gang.

Ghislaine becomes in front of her gang.

Yes.

I feel like this is an unspoken commentary on how those who purport

to be strong project themselves as aggressive and the warriors

are actually scared little boys,

Mm.

you think?

Yeah.

Like we could throw three bottles in Deen's hand here, so she

could just clink them together.

Warrior Cast, come out and play.

Yay.

Yeah.

Like she is, she's ready to be in front of her people.

She's ready to do this, and Nero,

Nero is

hiding.

Mm-hmm.

I think, I think somebody was thinking, I think the director

was thinking about this shot,

I would believe that a hundred percent.

Based off of every episode of the show.

right?

No, no.

It's a good call out for sure.

Um, the way this is put together is it is a notable difference between the two.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And it puts the distinction, even more distinction between her style of

leadership and Nero's style of leadership.

I.

And it's also a statement on how Delaine sees things because as we

go through this episode, she thinks the only thing standing between her

and Arun being able to have a peaceful conversation is the warrior cast.

And she doesn't realize that the religious cast is also a problem.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Even by the end, she still has no idea.

Yeah.

They go off to have a private talk though.

Mm-hmm.

Basically, Delaine is still of the opinion that neither side

should win this Civil War conflict.

They need to, the Mumbar society needs to stay in balance, and if

either side wins, then they're not gonna be in balance anymore.

she and Nrun kind of come to an uneasy truce together, and he agrees to hear her

out and give her a chance and support her.

Yeah.

After this, the drowsy Ambassador is worried about what Sheridan isn't

telling them, Sheridan is just trying to hide a shite grin, this whole scene.

Like, Bruce, you did an excellent job with the, the micro expressions

and the acting in this scene.

Well done.

It's perfect.

You did

it is very good.

Yeah.

Here's Marcus to blow up some asteroids, then head home.

Ivana was like, are you all right?

This is weird.

And he just laughs to himself and there is no reason he can't explain this

to her except to be a smug asshole.

That is the only reason.

It, the plan is still gonna work if she knows about it.

There's no like logistical reason to leave her out of it.

He just wants to feel superior.

exactly.

And it's even shittier because he clearly tells Franklin what's

going on in like 30 seconds.

Yeah.

Especially because Franklin also has the shitty D grin.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Franklin clearly knows what up and for him to not tell Ivanova and then

explicitly to not tell Ivanova so that he can go tell Franklin is shitty

Yeah.

Before that though, we get londo.

Before that.

We get Londo being a little racist and hyper masculine

while talking to the draws.

The ambassador in his quarters,

that exact racist Lando call out in my notes.

I was like, what?

We don't need to bring facial features into this londo or male anatomy.

It is not a good look.

It could not have been a good look in 1997 and it is an even worse look now,

Yeah.

but he is, you know, like a known genocide or so I'm not really

worried about redeeming him, but

Yeah.

at the same time, like tone it the fuck down guy.

Yeah.

He insults the, draws the ambassador's eyes brings up his

massive male anatomy tentacles.

Wonderful.

Uh, And gesticulate, I forgot.

I'm sorry.

And follows Sheridan's Game of refusing to explain.

What the White Star Fleet is and why it's on the edge of Centara space.

Londo denies everything here.

As the DRA ambassador leaves Lao's quarters we see him meeting with a bunch

of other league ambassadors outside of lawns, and he confirms something is up

as Franklin asked them all for blood bank backups, just in case he then walks

away with a casual, I'll see you later.

Probably clearly playing his hand that he's in on it,

This is not creepy at all

just

have uh, the doctor requesting more blood for reasons

mow.

A bunch of religious cast Ari are gathered up to discuss to make sure

that they stop thelen from surrendering.

And so I was talking about a mutiny here.

Mm-hmm.

Um, Now there's an interesting note here.

I.

They talk about the warrior cast looks down on the religious cast

because of the surrender and that they haven't gotten past that.

So does this confirm that the warrior cast did not partake in the shadow war?

We know the religious cast was the main driving maari force there and

they're on all the white stars.

Uhhuh.

Well, and they had some of the cruisers too, didn't

yeah.

So if the warrior cast is still just giving the religious cast shit about the

war previous having sat out this one, are they completely misunderstanding the

status of the religious cast right now?

Because they're literally an active military coming fresh

off of a victory in a huge war,

Yeah.

With

super

advanced

technology?

Yeah, but they've lost ships.

I mean,

maybe they are down some equipment.

lost ships to the shadows in the roons, though, not to a Mbar cruiser.

The white stars are years ahead of anything that Warrior cast has got.

It just makes me wonder if, like the Warrior cast is talking a lot of shit

in the lens back here with like a ton of white stars and is just like,

look, we're gonna do this peacefully.

But if there's like a backup plan where that doesn't go down and the

room doesn't agree, and the white stars just come in and wreck everything,

Yeah.

have to be in a mater, a militarily superior position

then the warrior cast right now.

Yeah.

But she doesn't wanna use that.

She does not want to win.

She does not believe that the religious cast should do that if they can avoid

it.

I think I think that these religious menari have apparently never heard

what happens when you assume.

Right.

They decide they're gonna go for martyrdom.

Martyrdom is the answer.

Yeah.

We, they overheard like one wrong part of her conversation with Nero.

The part where she says the religious cast cannot win,

they didn't hear the rest of it.

No.

And uh, the answer is to just kill everyone.

Yep.

Over at M S N B C studio, Sheridan tells Avva to mention that nothing

happened in sector 83 by nine, by 12,

Yeah.

Nothing.

nothing happened.

You're not lying.

Nothing happened there.

It's like, yes, I checked, nothing happened there.

It's like, exactly.

Just say nothing happened there.

Yeah.

Ivanovo says like, we don't wanna plant stories, we don't wanna be

propaganda, we don't wanna be that.

We wanna be better than the people we're

against.

And uh, Sheridan says, well, it's not wrong,

it's not untrue, it's not a lie.

I don't know.

I'm really on Ivana's side here.

I don't like this look.

No, it's not a good look.

Yeah, I mean, we can save that for the end.

Maybe we, we discussed this at the end of the episode, but I don't like it.

She does tell us though, that three quarters of Clark's

cabinet resigned over the protest

Over

and Yeah, that's good to know.

Not everything is as lockstep as it seems back home.

The more that they reach out, the more they find that

Mm-hmm.

she does make the broadcast though.

And this does get the league further worked up.

The non-aligned ambassadors get all excited over this possibly invisible enemy

because they've been to sector 83 and they can see that something's been blown up.

They can't detect what it was, and they are all to the point of

like scattering in the sokolow.

They're so concerned, and I mean, I guess that they're not like wrong to be

concerned about an invisible enemy, right?

Because we just had the shadows who were shown all over Babylon.

Five, sometimes

casually invisible,

Yeah, invisible aliens are like a going concern in this universe.

A warrior cast goon, gets torun with a dbak as the religious cast actually

fucking listens to Deen for 30 seconds and realizes that they made a big mistake.

Big whoopsy doodle

She says the exact right things to chastise them without saying it,

uhhuh.

It's beautiful.

As Lanier is in whatever the fuck their Jeffrey tubes are called.

don't,

Yeah, I called it a Jefferies tube.

yeah, I mean that's, that's the Star Trek term and it's a reference to

like one of the art designers or set designers on the original series, I think,

Oh, cute.

Is why they're called Jefferies Tubes.

So they definitely have no end universe reason to be called that in Babylon.

Five.

But y'all knew what I meant.

Uhhuh.

Yeah, we did.

Yeah.

He finds the, the poison canister.

he gets some clutch last words in here as he collapses just in case.

I hope I have the wherewithal to just get some bomb last words in.

Nrun has his personal physician care for Linear and he notes that he means

a lot to Delin, like he's a great friend.

Yeah.

Ghislaine finally puts to words what linear means to her here uh, fitting

that he isn't there to hear it.

Nrun speaks well of deland for the first time as well, and the bridge between

them is now being built on both sides.

Oh, how nice.

Yeah.

The league argues until Sheridan rolls in late that everything goes perfect.

They demand the protection of the Rangers, they grant them

the authority to do their jobs.

They even agree to support the Rangers in larger conflicts.

Yeah.

They've played right into his hands.

Exactly what he wants.

Yeah.

All the, the things that he struggled for during the shadow war,

getting everyone to come together.

He's just managed to pull it off.

This time.

He, yes.

He walks away, you know, with the.

The mask still on his face looking, concerned and like he's been beaten,

walks into the elevator and loudly yells.

Yes.

So we know he's gotten what he

Yep.

Over on The White Star, Lanier is recovering, is awake and lies

to protect delen from the truth.

She lives in a world where we are all better than we are, and he would

do anything to protect that world.

Yeah.

I, I've like that we established in season two that uh, menari could lie to save

face for another, and that's what he's doing here for the other religious cast.

You know, he.

Says it definitely wasn't sabotage,

And definitely not the warrior cast, which is true.

But she does not consider that it could have been her own people at all.

We got a voice of the resistance broadcast that lets everyone but

Sheridan specifically know that the fighting is broken out on Minbar.

Mm-hmm.

And also lets Dylan know specifically that we wish her

well,

Lanier wakes up, sees Naroon, follows him and sees and peace

out as Naroon gets on a shuttle and lets his uh, boss Pierre.

It's gotta be Pierre know about a religious cast counter attack that

no one in this episode talked about.

Yeah, that's, that's what is giving me the big wonders.

Like is he, did he do something off screen that we didn't see and get some intel

I read some use notes stuff.

And apparently there were a handful of people super upset

about Nrun betraying Delaine here.

uhhuh?

Well, I felt that way on my first watch through.

I was like this bastard, but then we.

I came back to it a second time and I thought, well, but is he

Well, the thing that he just, he's telling on the religious cast

for as far as we know isn't true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It didn't happen on screen.

It would've had to have been an offscreen

thing.

We'll find out about Naroon next episode and what's going on there.

But before then, Laura, how'd you feel about this one?

Rate this episode for me, if you would, on a scale of Babylon's one to Babylon.

Five.

I gotta give this one.

Two and a half Babylons.

Yeah, I don't like it that much it and a lot of it is the bad feelings that it

gives me, but for practical standpoint it's a lot of telling versus showing

with the situation on memoir, we get like a one c g I shot of the Crystal

city with some smoke in the background and some be robed people running

about, but we haven't really seen much conflict and and strife on Minbar.

That would make me worried, like I feel like you could almost fix this with one

little scene before we see Dela and linear on the white star, where Delin like gets a

call from somebody and there's like clear chaos or destruction in the background.

They're asking for her help,

Yeah,

but instead we're just kind of told things on Minbar are bad.

I think that is a cultural difference.

I think that Maari infighting is so rare.

That something that we might even consider a borderline peaceful protest

Uhhuh

is a big deal.

Yeah.

Okay.

Could be.

I think that's just their, their culture compared to ours that,

you know, fighting breaking out in the city could be a handful of limited

incidents, to be perfectly honest.

And that might still qualify as a cast civil war to the Mbba people.

Well, I still feel like somebody calling for help would do more to

establish the conflict rather than just everybody telling me there's conflict.

Fair.

I also don't like the big patriarchy vibes I get

from Sheridan in this episode where he's manipulating people

He is the worst

part

he's,

Yeah.

because he's our captain and he's our good guy, we're

supposed to just trust him.

And that's a very like, patriarchy thing, feeling that it brings up in me, like,

oh, they're men and they're in power, so we're just supposed to trust it.

And

No, I'm a hundred percent on

board there.

Um, If he had been level with a vava and not lied to her to be a

smug asshole and then gone and told Franklin, I might feel differently

about it, but that's not what happens.

It's a piece of shit.

He's a piece of shit.

This episode, he lies, he, he is the most unshared and we've

ever seen him this episode.

we did see him like beating, beating up Morden.

Yeah.

Without due process,

Oh, we've had his acab moments for sure.

But this is outright misinformation campaign to manipulate a group of

political powers into doing what he thinks is best for them, taking away their call

in their best interest by making them believe that there's a giant threat.

it is antithetical to how his character behaves most of the time.

Yeah.

And just because we the watchers know that Yeah.

There actually is a threat out there.

It doesn't make it better for me.

Yeah.

Just be honest with them maybe.

And if they choose to be stubborn about their defense, then that's them

doing their thing for their people.

But even the League of Non-Line Worlds calls it out where it's just like we're

still beaten up from the shadow war.

Like, you need to help us defend ourselves until we can rebuild.

That's all they ask for.

They don't want long-term protection from the Rangers.

Right.

Nor should they.

They're sovereign nations.

They wanna protect themselves.

That's what makes them sovereign nations.

You're right, right.

This is a very slippery slope that Sheridan is on.

I don't like That

That makes me feel

bad.

And then the pacing is just a little everything with the mbar is happening kind

of fast and I'm not seeing a lot of it, so

See, I think I really liked all the Bombardi stuff, this episode.

And just to throw a number on it, I'm giving it a three five,

Okay.

which I think might be the biggest discrepancy we've had.

Yeah, I don't know.

We've, we've been uh, you know, you've been on the fuck this

episode scale when I've been

Yeah, but that's a separate scale.

It's not a zero, it's a non rating.

Right.

I.

it's just like we see so much in the, well, one Mira acts the

hell out of this fucking episode,

Oh, for sure

just throws this thing on her fucking back and carries you through it.

It is interesting to see her, to see her view of the world put so plainly.

What makes her different than other Ardi?

What makes her.

Ducati's chosen, you know, all of these things to be stated plainly

and then also shown to us, you know, to see the descent that could exist

until they realize the person that they're actually interacting with.

I loved all that stuff.

Lanier just fucking heroes out and is willing to throw his life down

to save everyone,

yeah.

And this is the second time he's heroed out and done that when

he pushed Wado out of the way.

and I think it happens a third time.

Spoilers.

like it's, yeah,

it's just like, I really enjoyed all that stuff.

I enjoyed the subtle politicking with Nrun and delaine trying to come at

things from such different perspectives.

Delaine admits she's fucking wrong.

You know, she was wrong to do certain things, to see her regrets and everything.

And then the only redeemable part about Sheridan this episode is

to see how quickly he becomes an asshole when she's gone, and how much

of a better person she makes him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He needs that

he does for sure.

He needs someone to keep him in fucking line ' cause it's not gonna be any

of his subordinates on the station.

and he's definitely playing into Garibaldis critique of.

You are playing God.

Do you think Sheridan acts like this if Garibaldi is

still on senior staff right now?

with Delin

I, and they've had the, you know, fight the conversation about

you're playing God, I think he can't.

Right?

Because the criticism is right there looking him in the face.

If he remembers that at all, he's got to like tamp it down a little bit and explain

himself a little more because Garibaldi was pushing back on that a little bit.

Well, a lot obviously he walked away, but yeah, I think you can't be this

asshole if Garibaldis there or this is the point when Garibaldi walks away.

for sure.

Alright, well, speaking of Garibaldi, walking away, being a moment of

transition, next week we have season four, episode 14, moments of Transition.

Ooh.

must make the ultimate sacrifice for her cast.

Lita considers rejoining the SCOs.

The hideous act by Earth's government motivates Sheridan.

That's a lot of

It's a big episode.

I think we have something special for this episode

We do.

Scott from Gray Seventeens joining us next week.

Yeah.

I'm excited.

He got to be with us for the Turkey of an episode and now he gets to come

back for a good one of his choice.

did ask for this one.

We, when we did Gray 17, we kind of was all like, Hey, so Gray 17, you know,

because that's the name of your podcast.

And so he accepted I don't, I wouldn't say begrudgingly.

Uh, He might feel free to correct me next week.

But it'll be nice to have him on a more critical episode

of the series Arc as well,

Yeah, it would be very

enjoyable.

and we have more exciting guests in the back half of the season, so

We have a Yum, yum.

Podcast is gonna join us.

Ben's gonna be back in another couple of weeks as well.

Dominion Media Television will make

one more appearance this season, fantastic.

be another three in this back half of season four.

So we'll have six guest spots in 12 episodes or something, which is crazy.

Yeah.

So much fun though.

Looking forward to it.

Yeah.

What I'm looking forward to is everyone's journey of self-discovery

through music when they go on Spotify or their streamer of choice and listen

to nuclear Jaguar, which you can do.

And we'll say again, thanks to Jeremy Siegel for our lovely theme music.

And thank you to Angry Duck time machine on Instagram

for our podcast artwork.

Thanks Aaron for editing our podcast and making sure

that it comes out on time.

Having just been on vacation and having not to edit podcast was fucking

excellent, so I really appreciate you doing that for me at that time

And thank you to you, the listener, for being here and joining us

on our Babylon five

really appreciate it you choosing to spend an hour with Laura

and I as we talk about Babylon.

Five.

Go ahead and join our Discord.

Shoot us an email.

Who are you?

b5@gmail.com.

We're on.

X.

Now Twitter renamed itself they're called Zet now or something.

I don't know.

Elon Musk is about to get the shit beat out of him by mark Zuckerberg,

and I'm really looking forward to it.

It's the only time in my life I've rooted for Mark Zuckerberg.

Yeah.

And speaking of Mark Zuckerberg, we are on Facebook as well.

You can find us there.

But really the discord is where all the chill hangs are happening.

So, You know, email us if you need help getting that discord

and we will get you set up.

for sure.

Yeah, you can find that link all over the place and if you, yeah, just get there.

It's great stuff.

And, uh, we'll see you next week for a moments of transition internet.

Have a good one.