Can AI help make accessibility more inclusive without replacing the people at its heart?

In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Joe is joined by Lucy Collins, Managing Director of Web Usability and founder of CollectivA11y, to explore how artificial intelligence can help organisations embed accessibility and inclusive thinking much earlier in the design and development process.

Drawing on more than two decades of user research experience, Lucy shares the story behind CollectivA11y and why it was created to address one of the biggest barriers facing organisations today: making meaningful accessibility and usability research achievable at scale. She explains why the platform is built on ethically sourced lived experience, why AI should AMPLIFY rather than replace disabled people, and how it can encourage better conversations before products ever reach real users.

We discuss the importance of shifting accessibility "left", the relationship between usability and accessibility, the risks of relying on compliance and audits alone, and why curiosity, empathy and better language are essential if we want organisations to move beyond fear and create genuinely inclusive digital experiences.

The conversation also explores the opportunities and challenges presented by generative AI, synthetic users, inclusive research, and how emerging technologies could help create more personalised and accessible experiences for everyone when used responsibly.

Whether you're an accessibility specialist, UX researcher, designer, developer, product manager, founder or digital leader, this episode offers practical insights into balancing innovation with lived experience and keeping people at the centre of accessibility.

Connect with Lucy Collins

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucycollinsuk/

Web Usability: https://www.webusability.co.uk/

CollectivA11y: https://collectivally.com/

Connect with Joe James

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/

Website: www.PCRDigital.co.uk

The Digital Accessibility Podcast: https://linktr.ee/thedigitalaccessibilitypodcast

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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PCRDigital

Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.

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If you're looking to learn more about the field of

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accessibility,

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how to implement it within your role or your company,

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or to get advice on where to start or see how others have

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navigated complex issues that you may find along the way,

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then you're in the right place.

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I'm honored to be able to share these insightful chats with

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thought leaders, advocates,

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and practitioners of digital accessibility throughout this

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podcast, and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.

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As always, thank you so much for listening,

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and I hope you enjoy the chat.

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Today I'm joined by Lucy Collins,

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director at Web Usability and the founder of CollectivA11y.

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Uh, many people will know Lucy through Web Usability,

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one of the UK's longest standing accessibility

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consultancies.

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And more recently she's launched CollectivA11y,

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an AI powered accessibility research platform designed to

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help organizations consider accessibility earlier in the

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design and development process.

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So Lucy, welcome to the podcast.

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Hopefully that's given you a bit of an intro, but,

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we always like to start with a bit of background on your

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journey into accessibility if you don't mind.

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Of course.

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Thank you so much for having me, Joe,

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It's so nice to be here.

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And yeah,

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it's funny when you say like one of the longest standing

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accessibility agencies that I've got here in Web Usability.

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I was very fortunate to,

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sort of come into Web Usability via my parents who

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initially set up the business back in 2002.

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So we are just approaching our 25th year anniversary,

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and I,

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I joined the business eight years ago and then officially

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took over nearly two years ago, and so I've...

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I feel very fortunate to be in this space.

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I am hugely privileged to have had the opportunity to join

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the family business and hopefully continue the legacy that

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my parents set out.

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And I think we got into accessibility a- about 10 years ago

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now.

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What the agency had started as was a sort of pure user

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research insight agency.

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We're all about helping organizations kind of make fast,

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confident digital decisions.

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But obviously because accessibility is very much the core

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of universal design and should be the starting point for

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everything that we do, both online and offline,

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it was a very natural transition to take our research

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skills into the accessibility space and to start doing more

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in the way of inclusive research,

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to start doing more in the way of WCAG compliance work.

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because a lot of the time we found that organizations were

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talking about wanting to be inclusive in their research

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practices, but they didn't know how to go about doing that.

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And actually we've been very fortunate over the last 10

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years to build up an amazing pool of participants,

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who are able to help us sort of bring that lived

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experience into the conversations that we're having with

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organizations.

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So I think the journey was,

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kind of a very natural evolution of the business,

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but actually it's a very personal one for me.

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My m who co-founded Web Usability with my dad,

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has multiple sclerosis.

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She's very physically disabled.

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I see the challenges that she experiences day to day,

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and I think that is often the case for many people that

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work in digital accessibility, isn't it?

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You have either experienced access needs yourself,

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or you have been close to somebody who has experienced

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those barriers, and it makes you want to change things.

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It makes you want to offer them a better world and to break

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down those barriers.

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And so I think that passion, you know,

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as something that was a very natural evolution of the work

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that we do anyway,

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was then sort of fueled by this personal passion to make

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the world a bit easier for my m has sort of led us on the

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journey of where we've got to today.

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Oh, amazing.

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It's a almost a win-win, isn't it?

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I think that that's, that's, uh...

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A lot of people will describe access- working in

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accessibility in any form as very challenging.

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Uh,

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there are times that it can lead to burnout because of the

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passionate side of people working in the space and the

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empathy that they have.

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but that just goes to show just how rewarding it can be as

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well, right?

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'Cause it's not just the wider world.

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You're- it's also someone you love and care for.

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So it's, yeah, no, it's an amazing,

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amazing journey into the space.

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Yeah.

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And I think that's why like that, that human element,

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that humanity is so important and for me so crucial in the

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work that we do is that you need to see the human beings

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that you are perhaps inadvertently excluding from the

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services that you are creating.

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I was at a talk actually just yesterday,

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with a woman named Jan Duyck,

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who has pr- launched Project NEMO that I'm sure many people

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in the accessibility world will be familiar with,

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all about financial inclusion and how do we ensure that

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people with disabilities can be financially independent

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online.

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And her journey started from one of, of ignorance.

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she was like,

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"I ha- we hadn't realized we'd built digital services that

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did not work for vast swathes of the population." And so I

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think that there's a lot of people that are unintentionally

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excluding through a, a lack of awareness,

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a lack of understanding.

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And I think often for many people,

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that moment of contact with somebody who's experiencing an

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access need is that moment of enlightenment that happens

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and the moment where you think, "Oh, we need to do better.

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We need to make change." So I think humanity, human beings,

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lived experience in all of this is,

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is the kind of key to unlocking the real potential with

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accessibility.

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Absolutely.

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And what a wonderful eureka moment to have as well.

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Um- Absolutely ...

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but it's, uh, um...

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So the language of accessibility is something that is

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always discussed as well.

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So, uh, it's often sort of around terms,

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in terms of compliance, audits, remediation.

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Um- Mm ...

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but you've spoken just there as well about the importance

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of using the right language to drive the engagement and

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that impact.

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So why specifically, uh, if you don't mind, does that,

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like does the language that we use matter, and how can...

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how would you advise organizations to shift that

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conversation from fixing issues or identifying and then

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fixing issues to just generally creating better experiences

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for people?

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Yeah.

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I have,

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I have a real problem with the language that we use in our

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space.

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I hate the term audit.

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I hate the checklist approach to accessibility because I

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think it creates this environment of fear.

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It's this top-down,

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regulated environment where a- accessibility becomes the

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hot potato that just gets passed between whoever is

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seemingly responsible for it,

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whether that's a senior leadership team,

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it's the product team delivering a digital experience,

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it's the agency that supports in that delivery,

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it's an accessibility consultancy that's responsible for

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supporting people to- towards that kind of compliance.

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And even that word compliance, like, compliance is,

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you know, is,

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is not something that sparks great feelings of empathy and

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emotion and humanity.

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It's a word that sparks fear because if you are audited,

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if you are not compliant, you are doing something wrong,

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you will get a slap on the wrist, and as a result,

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there is fear, and where there is fear, you lack curiosity,

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and you're not willing to try and understand the

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experiences that people might be having online.

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You're not willing to try and empathize with those people.

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A- accessibility gets reduced to a code change,

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to a checkbox,

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and we forget that there are human beings struggling to use

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the ex- the digital experiences that we're building.

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So, I know it's the world that we live in.

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We as an agency deliver accessibility audits, but I hate it.

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I really think there needs to be an amnesty around

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accessibility where instead of us all passing the hot

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potato, we actually go, "Okay, well,

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how can we work together towards a collective goal of

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making a more equitable online world?" And that's not

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perfect,

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and that is always something that's going to be changing

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and evolving as needs and technology change and evolve,

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but it's something that we can work together towards.

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So I think if we could do away with the audit,

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the accessibility world would be a much better place,

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in my opinion.

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I'm sure there are accessibility consultancies around the

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world who are screaming at me to say no,

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because obviously it's a,

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it's a fairly consistent revenue stream for many of us.

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But I think that audits are a really dangerous thing

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because when you audit,

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you are looking for things that are wrong.

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You are looking for problems rather than looking for

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opportunities.

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So I think that there needs to be a reframe from fear,

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audit, compliance to opportunity, accessibility,

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and humans as much as we possibly can.

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And I think c- with that comes the language that we need to

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be able to use to engage people in this world,

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in these conversations.

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You have been to many accessibility events like myself,

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and it's lovely because it's filled with other

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accessibility people, and we're all great,

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and we have a lovely time, and we're all good,

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nice people trying to make the world a little bit of a

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better place.

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But we're not always the people that can make the real

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change in the organizations.

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So I think as well as kind of removing this fear that

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surrounds the accessibility world,

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we also need to be better at talking about accessibility in

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languages and terms that people more broadly in the

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organization understand.

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and I know you're probably gonna ask me about my CARE

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framework, so this might be a good moment to- Yeah.

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Great way to ease into it ...

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to go into what that is 'cause this is something that I

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sort of started playing around with about a year ago,

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around how do I make people care?

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Because I, I fundamentally believe nobody...

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If I was to stand in front of someone and say,

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"Would you like my m who has a physical disability,

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to not be able to use your website?" I don't think anybody

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would, unless they are a true psychopath, would tell me,

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"Nah.

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No,

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I really don't want your mum to be able to buy this product

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or use this service that I'm delivering." So I think

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fundamentally, we all do want accessibility.

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We all do want to create a world that works well for

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everyone.

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But I think that not everyone is motivated to achieve that

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in the same way.

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I am an altruist.

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I absolutely love to help people.

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I am absolutely motivated by that feeling that I get when I

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do good.

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Richard Dawkins would argue that's my selfish gene talking,

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and actually I'm getting a lot from it personally,

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but yeah, whatever.

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I think that it's really important to note that there are

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some people that are just, you know,

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genuinely motivated to do good in the world,

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but that's not everybody,

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and a lot of people will care for a number of different

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reasons.

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And so the CARE framework is an acronym that stands for

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four different things.

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Care, C, is compliance,

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so there will be people that are motivated by the stick of

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legislation.

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And yes,

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while in a way I would love to remove that and I'd love for

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people to do accessibility because it's the right thing,

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ex- accessibility legislation does move us in the right

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direction,

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and it is a useful stick to have to wield for those people

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that perhaps are less motivated by the 'I just wanna do

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good in the world,' piece.

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So C is compliance,

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and it's really easy to talk about all of the different

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compliance requirements that exist in the world.

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They are many, varied,

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but all of them are obviously underpinned by WCAG,

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so for a lot of it,

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it's very easy to use that as a starting point and to use

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compliance as a way to get people on side with

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accessibility.

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You then do have A, the altruist angle,

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which is obviously the thing that speaks to me,

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and I'm sure a lot of people that listen to your podcast.

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We then will have R, which is the return on investment.

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It is very well documented that when you invest in

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accessibility, it has a positive impact on your bottom line.

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The earlier you invest in it,

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the less opportunity you have for accessibility debt to

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build up, the more you, uh, create inclusive environments,

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you will have a positive return on investment.

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It might not be immediate,

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it might require some long-term thinking, but it is there.

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So for those people that are motivated by money,

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there's a very strong argument as to why accessibility is

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something worth investing in.

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And then E,

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the E of my CARE framework is that experiential piece,

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experience.

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For many of us,

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either being exposed personally or having close exposure to

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someone who has an access need is, as I said earlier,

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that moment of enlightenment,

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and this is where I think inclusive research and to a

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certain extent empathy labs,

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although I'm a little bit on the fence about empathy labs,

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to be honest, are,

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are a great way for people to have that moment where they

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see someone struggle.

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And this is what I love to do, the research we do.

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We always in- invite our clients to observe that kind of

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anon- anonymously in the background so they can see someone

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struggling to use their website.

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They can experience a different perspective.

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They can understand those barriers,

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and they can feel the frustration of those users when they

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hit those barriers.

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So I think experience can be probably, in my opinion,

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the most powerful way to,

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to work people towards that moment of enlightenment.

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But I think if you can think about those kind of four

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different parameters in the CARE framework,

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it gives you a very easy way of having the different

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conversations, all of which lead you to the same outcome,

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which is getting people to care about accessibility.

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Yeah.

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It's beautiful.

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It's really, really well-formed, and it's, it's...

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I, uh,

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instantly after you first mentioned it to me a few weeks

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ago when we were talking about this podcast,

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I went straight to our director, Jane, and I just said,

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"This is fantastic." And it, and it actually spells care.

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You know?

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It's like just something so- I know ...

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much,

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just- I was very proud of myself when I came up with it.

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It's amazing.

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It's so, so well thought out.

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And, yeah, I think, uh,

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giving people the opportunity to connect to a certain...

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What, what speaks to them, like you say.

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I think, uh,

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the words and generating fear through words like audit,

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compliance, regulation, fines, fees,

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can sort of initiate the fight or flight response as well

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in a lot of people.

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So- Yeah ...

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there will be people that will stand and stick around and

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go, "Yeah, let's make this right,"

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and there will be others that will go, "Where...

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How do I get out of here?

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How do I escape this?

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Can I brush this under the rug?" But then if you put care

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in the middle of that, it's like, well,

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there's people here to support you as well.

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You know, there's plenty of, of consultancies,

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like Web- Web Usability.

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and it's just, yeah, I think it's a lovely thing to have,

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uh, under your belt.

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So I'm gonna probably try and still use that,

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um- Please do ...

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with others.

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There, and I think, you know,

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anything that helps us have more of these conversations,

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'cause like you said,

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it's very easy to burn out when you work in accessibility

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because you feel like you're banging the same drum.

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You're...

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And to a certain extent you do also feel like you're

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banging your head against a brick wall sometimes when

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you're like,

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"Why is this message not getting through?" And I think if

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it's a case of, okay, well,

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actually I've just not been using the right language to

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motivate the person I'm speaking to,

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I think if you've got kind of a very easy way of flipping

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your thinking without having to go away and do extensive

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research, you can just say, "Okay, fine.

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You know, you're not motivated by the,

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the stick of legislation because perhaps it doesn't impact

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us as much, but because we're a public sector organization,

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but we have...

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Our, our entire me- reason for being is to make money.

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We are a for-profit business," for example.

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If I'm an e-commerce consultancy or, uh, e-commerce,

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product or something like that, you know, why,

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why would we not want to sell more of our product?

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Of course, we do.

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Yeah.

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And so if we make our website accessible,

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we will sell more of our product,

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and chances are we'll also develop a really loyal group of

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customers because we know this as well,

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that when an experience does work well for people with

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disabilities, they will come back again and again.

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They will tell their friends and family,

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they will tell other people in the disabled community

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because it is so unusual for them to have a good experience

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online.

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Yeah.

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So I just think you can make a very compelling, uh,

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argument, even if it's not just, "Oh,

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you really ought to care 'cause it's the right thing to

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do." Yeah.

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I think, uh, it sounds a bit, oh,

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I'm trying to think of the word, insensitive maybe.

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But I think that the disability community or people that

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experience barriers of any kind,

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almost act as free marketing at times.

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That does sound quite, harsh and insensitive,

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but there are no better advocates than people that can

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actually use something.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know?

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And it's like, this actually works for me,

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and they'll share that with people that have similar

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experiences, and it just widens that network then,

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and you've got, uh,

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an even larger user base or potential market.

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So yeah, that return on investment piece is, is so evident.

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I just...

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It's just,

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it's astonishing so many people don't really realize that,

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but- Yeah, and you still hear it today.

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I will have conversations with, you know,

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our clients because w- we do have clients who come to us

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for sort of pure user research work,

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and they don't necessarily consider the inclusive element.

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We will always try and ensure there is, uh,

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some- an inclusive element that's bought into it.

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historically, people have very much come to us for either,

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like, usability or accessibility,

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and I've been trying to kind of merge the two 'cause they

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are.

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You know, they are two ends of a sliding spectrum.

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Something is accessible, something is usable.

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It is, it is one and the same.

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but it's not been the mindset that people have had.

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And so I will still have conversations with people where

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I'll be like, "I think we should really,

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make sure that we are inclusive in our recruitment

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practices.

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We are, you know,

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gonna be including some people with different disabilities,

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different access needs." And they'll just be like, "Oh,

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it's,

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it's not a priority for us." And I am honestly gobsmacked

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whenever I hear that, and this is why.

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I think this is what kind of motivated the care framework

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was I was like,

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I must be able to make these people care because this is so

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important and s- will make their businesses better.

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So,

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how do I come up with the language that allows them to do

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it?

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And I think that was really what motivated it 'cause I was

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just irritated by these stupid comments that I was getting.

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Perfect.

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What better way to, to build something like that?

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It's, it's great, and I'm sure you've seen- Have anger ...

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some...

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seen it work.

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Yeah.

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but,

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but putting all of that energy into something so positive

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is great.

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but amazing.

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So I don't want this to,

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this episode to sort of come across as too much of a hit

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piece on audit, but the next,

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next question is more around sort of the inclusive

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research side of things, why that comes first really,

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and could potentially lead to doing away with testing,

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auditing, which is quite late in the process in,

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in many cases.

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So,

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why do you personally believe that inclusive research is,

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is sort of the most important or one of the most important

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stages of the sort of life cycle?

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And what would you say organizations are missing,

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without stating the obvious,

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when disabled people or people that experience barriers

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aren't involved early enough?

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Yeah.

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So I think we all walk around with a view of the world that

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is entirely informed by the lived experience that we have.

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It is completely unique to us,

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and the problem is that the majority of the people who are

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building digital services are of a certain demographic,

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of a certain age.

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they have a very narrow lived experience relative to the

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diversity that exists in the world as a whole.

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And- So I am obviously a huge advocate for research of

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every form.

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but the reason that I think inclusive research in

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particular is so valuable is because it often gives you a

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perspective,

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a lived experience that is so far removed from your own.

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The majority of people who design and develop websites will

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be sighted, they will be able to use a mouse,

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they will be able to see color, they will be able to,

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perceive,

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sort of design elements from the way that they look.

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When you put someone who is blind,

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someone who has a physical disability and cannot use a

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mouse on a website or getting them to explore an early

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stage prototype or a design,

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you will suddenly see an entirely different way of engaging

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with that experience, of navigating it,

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of interpreting the information that exists there,

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and I think that that is so important, and there is...

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To,

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to kind of to challenge those mental models that we have

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and to see things through a different lens.

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There is a certain arrogance, I think,

510

that comes with designing something.

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The idea that you think that you can build something that

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will work perfectly for everybody without ever putting it

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in front of people is,

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is remarkably arrogant when you think about it,

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and I get it.

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You know, design and development, this...

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Again, this isn't a hit on those, those job roles.

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We work very closely with people who work in design and

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development,

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but there is this pressure to have all the answers,

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and I think it takes great humility to say, "Actually,

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like I, I don't know the best way to design this," or,

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"I don't know what might work for these sorts of people."

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And I also think that when we consider the principles of

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universal design, for anyone who's familiar with it,

526

you know,

527

you've got kind of three circles that sit within each,

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each of them.

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Access is the core to that.

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Access is the first circle and should be the starting point

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for everything that we design.

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So when we design from the perspective of people that have,

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more severe access requirements,

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we are going to be building a service that works better for

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everybody because we are starting from that central point

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of access and then building usability and universal design

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around it.

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So I think it's fundamental for challenges, mental models.

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I think it's fundamental for giving us those different

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perspective, but it always happens too late in the process.

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and I think if we could properly co-create from a very

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early stage,

543

we would probably do away with the need to do audits

544

because as you say, an audit is there set out at,

545

at the end of a process to find issues that were created

546

earlier on.

547

So if we can just not create those issues in the first

548

place, then ta-da, no audits required,

549

and what a happy world that would be.

550

But I think the problem for so many organizations is that

551

it's cost, it costs a lot of money, it takes a lot of time.

552

A lot of people that they s- say they struggle to access

553

disabled participants, which to me,

554

I just think they just don't try hard enough,

555

because you know what?

556

25% of the UK population has a registered disability.

557

But I think also, like,

558

we have to consider the impact that that has on disabled

559

people as well.

560

You know,

561

there is often a small group of disabled people that get

562

asked a lot to help with this sort of research.

563

It might be employees within an organization who are just

564

trying to do their job and then have this additional load

565

put on top of them.

566

Every time we do research with someone,

567

you are asking them to give up a bit of their lived

568

experience, a bit of themselves.

569

That is a huge amount to ask,

570

and even though you pay them fairly,

571

you compensate them for that time, I mean, really,

572

what is the, the price of lived experience?

573

Like- Mm ...

574

I, I, you know, I,

575

I think we're fairly generous in the incentives we give our

576

participants, but I always feel that it- they really,

577

we should be paying, we should be paying more.

578

So there are huge barriers to organizations to doing this

579

because when you are building digital experiences,

580

it has to happen yesterday.

581

It has to be done with no money,

582

particularly in today's world,

583

and so why would you then prioritize, uh,

584

inclusive research which will slow you down,

585

and it will cost you money when you can't necessarily see

586

the tangible benefit that that will have down the line

587

because we are all fairly short-termist in our thinking,

588

and we struggle to kind of necessarily measure the impact

589

of doing that research early stage.

590

So I can completely understand why a lot of w-

591

organizations don't do it, but I think by not doing it,

592

you are inevitably building services that don't serve,

593

those people with the most, uh, severe access needs well,

594

and you are effectively setting yourselves up to be in an

595

ev- a never-ending audit cycle of trying to fix problems

596

that you perhaps could have resolved much earlier in the

597

process.

598

Yeah.

599

No, for sure.

600

I mean, that, and especially that,

601

that short-termist thinking, especially in today's world,

602

I think the attention span has, has halved if not worse.

603

Oh, God.

604

I think- Well,

605

we can't keep a prime minister for more than 18 months at

606

the moment, can we?

607

So...

608

I love it.

609

Let's keep it topical.

610

It's very interesting world that we're living in,

611

but hopefully that with, with that change as well,

612

there may be more of a push- Yeah ...

613

and support for this type of work to, to continue to happen.

614

So we shall see, but, amazing.

615

That does actually bring me really nicely into the,

616

the next section as well, and the next question,

617

which is around the dreaded AI, uh, in quotation marks.

618

Ding, ding, ding.

619

Uh,

620

but how that can sort of be used in a positive light because

621

there are so many benefits to it, but it, it...

622

The problems it's solving are very, very, you know, uh,

623

commonplace and recent in terms of not having time and

624

funding, and then sort of just bringing things to the fore.

625

There are obviously huge drawbacks with that because of,

626

uh,

627

accessibility not being included in that side of things,

628

so vibe coding or using Claude for certain things,

629

it may not have been a consideration.

630

and- ...

631

within your prompts.

632

So, it's a huge topic in technology, and I'll...

633

I could bang on about it constantly.

634

I'm currently actually building a- another part of the

635

business that's gonna be focusing purely on security within

636

AI as well, so it's another sort of, um- Yeah ...

637

area,

638

but I think that there's a lot of synergy between security,

639

information security, and accessibility as well.

640

but you have founded CollectivA11y,

641

so I will spell that out just so that I can make sure it's

642

in the captions correctly.

643

So it's C-O-L-L-E-C-T-I-V-A-1-1-Y, so, uh,

644

ingenious including accessibility acronym in there.

645

Well, I love the word CollectivA11y on its own,

646

but obviously that domain was taken,

647

so we had to be a little creative with the business name.

648

yeah, so I mean, I've obviously got skin in the game here,

649

and I think I should be really transparent about that in

650

terms of what is the role with accessibility...

651

with, with AI and accessibility.

652

but the problems that I just explored around why are

653

people not doing inclusive research are problems that I

654

have seen for the last 10 years that I've been working in

655

this space,

656

and I have had these same conversations over and over again.

657

And for so many of those years,

658

my approach was just keep banging the dr just keep talking,

659

the, you know, having these conversations.

660

People will change, change their strategy.

661

People will start to see the value of doing inclusive

662

research.

663

And perhaps there's some naivety there, but I think I...

664

Again, I'm inherently an optimist,

665

and I like to think that people will see the best in these,

666

in these moments and see the value in doing it.

667

But I think I'm also a realist, and with the, I mean,

668

I say advent of AI, obviously AI's been around for decades,

669

but with the advent of generative AI as we know it in the

670

last couple of years, I, like any savvy business owner,

671

have been exploring, well,

672

what does that mean for my business?

673

And I think like every business owner out there,

674

I've probably been in on this cycle of, "Oh, my goodness,

675

the world is ruined.

676

What am I gonna do?

677

I've got no future.

678

Ah," to going, "Oh, maybe,

679

maybe there's some opportunity here.

680

Could I potentially see what that opportunity is?" And for

681

me,

682

the opportunity was around this idea of synthetic users,

683

which when I first heard the term, terrified me.

684

The idea of doing research not with real people as a

685

researcher who regularly does research with real people

686

terrifies me because no amount of AI data could ever

687

simulate the experience of real people.

688

I have sat in beautiful research sessions where people have

689

bared their souls to me,

690

and I know that no AI could ever replicate that, ever,

691

and I will stand by that probably to my grave.

692

But I do think there is potentially a role for the...

693

this technology to pressure test ideas earlier in the

694

process and to give us access to a space that allows us to

695

be curious in a way that isn't going to necessarily cost

696

loads of money, take lots of time,

697

and impact the people that we are trying to be curious with.

698

So this is where CollectivA11y kind of came from,

699

which was we know that AI models,

700

we know the AI world doesn't represent the disabled

701

community well.

702

Is there a way that we could take what we at Web Usability

703

have been doing with our inclusive research,

704

use some of the aggregated anonymized research insights

705

that we've got to help create an experience or simulate the

706

experience of people with disabilities online?

707

And that is what CollectivA11y does.

708

It is an accessibility testing platform, uh,

709

that is designed to help teams think about accessibility

710

earlier, challenge their own assumptions,

711

and explore digital experiences through different

712

accessibility lenses.

713

So what we're doing with CollectivA11y is we're using AI

714

personas that are mapped to the European Accessibility Act

715

functional performance criteria.

716

They're grounded in the anonymized and aggregated research

717

data that my agency, Web Usability,

718

has sort of been generating over the last decade of what

719

good looks like for people with different disabilities

720

online.

721

And then the idea is that these personas can support you to

722

test digital experiences and then also to explore the

723

design and development ideas through,

724

the lens of different functional outcomes kind of right

725

from the very start of the process.

726

So rather than focusing on whether or not a button works

727

because it's got the right code, it's,

728

it's trying to help organizations and people understand

729

whether a digital experience can be used without vision,

730

can be used with limited manipulation and strength,

731

can be used without hearing, with lim- limited cognition,

732

and so on and so forth,

733

kind of through those functional performance criteria.

734

So very much leaning into the kind of the social model of

735

disability rather than does it work for someone who has,

736

uh, a certain disability type.

737

We're focusing on the functional outcome.

738

Can they achieve a task online?

739

I want to be very,

740

very clear kind of right from the start that it is a

741

bridge, not a destination.

742

it's not a simulation of disability,

743

it's not a replacement for research with real people,

744

and it's certainly not a re- a replacement for hiring

745

disabled people.

746

It's very much hopefully a way to encourage people to shift

747

left with their thinking, so to think about, uh,

748

accessibility earlier in that,

749

in that design and development process,

750

to consider accessibility outcomes earlier,

751

and to challenge the assumptions that we all have around

752

what good looks like for people with different

753

disabilities,

754

as well as pressure testing those digital experiences.

755

So when you do get to testing with real users,

756

which is obviously the step we want people to take,

757

that testing is as effective and as valuable as it can be

758

for both the business and the participants who are taking

759

part,

760

and we are not unnecessarily then burdening people with,

761

you know,

762

putting terrible experiences in front of them when there

763

are issues that we could have resolved in the first place.

764

So the aim of the tool is very much to encourage more

765

organizations to see the value in doing inclusive research

766

with real people.

767

And in fact,

768

we have included prompts in the platform to direct people

769

when is the best moment to do that.

770

And that is, that is what we're hoping to achieve.

771

Yeah.

772

And I g- the unburdening part is,

773

is the thing that speaks to me the most as well because as

774

much as...

775

I guess I have to look at it from the perspective of

776

someone that works in recruitment.

777

So my whole job is ensuring that people that have the

778

skills within accessibility,

779

who may have lived experience as part of that as well,

780

find paying jobs.

781

So- Absolutely ...

782

my,

783

my concern would be on that side of things in terms of is

784

this now gonna be removing the opportunity- Mm ...

785

for real people, human beings, and,

786

and plugging it into to, to AI.

787

But actually it's,

788

it's- I do think that there would be an element of this

789

supporting that role and unburdening and ensuring that it's

790

happening more frequently because one person with very

791

specific needs or specific disabilities that might be,

792

not as sort of widespread or commonplace, I guess,

793

in a market, they will still have, you know- Oh yeah ...

794

their say and, and- 100% ...

795

their requirement and things.

796

So it's, um...

797

And,

798

and treating it as a bridge and then still obviously backing

799

up your, your whole commitment to inclusive research shows,

800

you know, it's not coming, it's not,

801

this isn't a big tech company going, "Do you know what?

802

We're just gonna automate accessibility and not include

803

anyone whatsoever." But my,

804

my interest as well would come from how the training data

805

behind this, and it's,

806

hopefully that it's not gonna go too technical,

807

for my listeners, but also for me,

808

but have you worked with people with specific, uh,

809

needs or requirements, to build this?

810

And I'm assuming it's gonna be based on pers- on real pe-

811

real personas, or is it purely based off,

812

sort of AI data and, and agentic AI?

813

No.

814

So the, uh, the,

815

the bit that hopefully differentiates us and also makes us

816

a bit more defensible in the market as well is,

817

is that Web Usability has this anonymized aggregated

818

qualitative insight data around what it is that works,

819

that,

820

that makes the online world work well for people with disabilities.

821

Anybody who works in accessibility knows that WCAG is very

822

much the, kind of the floor not the ceiling.

823

A WCAG compliant website does not an accessible website

824

make necessarily, and so that is where you...

825

That is the value of inclusive research,

826

is that it takes you beyond compliance towards genuine

827

practical accessibility.

828

So at the moment, we are just,

829

we are using that existing data,

830

but what we are hoping to be able to do is to create a

831

permanent ongoing rolling research function that is

832

providing regular paid opportunities for disabled and

833

neurodivergent people to help us continuously ensure that

834

the data that we are using is up to date, robust,

835

and representative of a diverse range of access needs.

836

What these are not are digital twins, which is basically,

837

uh,

838

taking a particular disabled person and simulating them online.

839

That is not what we're trying to do because we know that

840

you put two screen reader users on one website,

841

and they will use it in a completely different way.

842

I see that daily with the research that we do,

843

and that is the beauty of human research,

844

and that is what AI will never, ever be able to replicate.

845

But what we want to try and achieve is that enough of those

846

different navigational styles and,

847

kind of exploration approaches are represented in the data

848

to ensure that our AI can kinda simulate multiple different

849

ways that a single person with a particular access need

850

might go about accessing that information.

851

Yeah.

852

What we're also trying to use it to do is,

853

AI speaks in a certain way, right?

854

We're all getting pretty savvy towards it.

855

This is not about pulling the wool over people's eyes and

856

pretending these are real people.

857

We would absolutely never do that.

858

We are very upfront about the fact that this is AI,

859

and this is a bridge.

860

But what we do want to do is to try and humanize the

861

language that the AI is using because we know how powerful

862

empathy is in creating change,

863

and we have seen it with the user testing that we have done

864

on the platform so far.

865

We're now in our kinda pre-launch beta phase,

866

and we're getting some amazing feedback from people about

867

the kind of the power of language at motivating change.

868

And we talked about this obviously earlier in,

869

in the podcast anyway,

870

which is a lovely full circle for us to go on.

871

Yeah.

872

But I think it's,

873

it's about making sure that it feels realistic because that

874

is what will create change,

875

and that is what will motivate more people to see the value

876

in doing inclusive research,

877

and that is what eventually will motivate more people to,

878

prioritize that in their strategies and create the time,

879

the space,

880

and the resources for people to do more with humans.

881

So if anything, I hope, you know,

882

absolutely this will never replace human research.

883

Absolutely it will never replace human researchers as well.

884

and it will, uh, you know,

885

if this starts to replace people with disabilities in some

886

way, we will pull it.

887

I've put that out there right now.

888

Like,

889

that is absolutely not what I am trying to achieve here.

890

Um- No ...

891

this is all about providing people with a tool that enables

892

them to challenge that mental model early.

893

Because we say, "Shift left, shift left.

894

Think more about accessibility earlier in the process,"

895

but we don't give people the tools to do it,

896

and I find it really frustrating.

897

I'm in organizations all the time running accessibility

898

training, and I talk to them all about,

899

all the time about how we need to make sure that we're

900

asking ourselves that question, "Is it accessible?

901

Is it accessible?" But the reality is that these are people

902

that have very busy jobs.

903

They are trying to think about all sorts of things,

904

not just the accessibility of it.

905

So it is no surprise that it drops off the radar.

906

So if we can be the provocation that allows these people

907

very easily to go, "Oh God,

908

have I thought about whether or not this is accessible?"

909

Then I, I don't feel that there's, you know,

910

there's harm in that.

911

And if anything,

912

I hope that it will just encourage more of a mindset shift

913

and a cultural shift in organizations to start to see the

914

real value in doing inclusive research,

915

and ideally come and commission Web Usability to do a whole

916

bunch of it 'cause, uh, that's,

917

that's what I'm trying to achieve here.

918

Absolutely.

919

I think even,

920

I'm just sort of now casting my mind forward and trying to

921

sort of imagine a world where CollectivA11y's been used

922

for, a large sort of platform, and then you have,

923

human representatives of those personas,

924

or you even just have a session with that platform or

925

product, whatever it might be, service.

926

And, or you could do, like, an initial user, uh,

927

human user research,

928

then they've been using CollectivA11y for six months,

929

a year,

930

God knows how long it might take to sort of get- To the

931

bottom of a lot of the issues that it will, it will,

932

sort of draw out,

933

and then have a second sort of experience to show,

934

'cause a lot of that quantitative data is, uh,

935

almost impossible to find sometimes in terms of this is how

936

much it's been improved in this space of time.

937

So to show that and to push that back out there and go,

938

"This is the, this is the, the return on investment.

939

This is the, the reason why," and, uh,

940

I guess that would then fully promote it even further,

941

and more companies and their competitors will have to use

942

it because it's clearly making a difference.

943

I mean, obviously, Joe,

944

that would be delightful if that were to happen.

945

but I think, yeah,

946

me-measuring the impact of research has always been really,

947

really hard.

948

It is something that we have struggled with for 25 years as

949

an agency, not just inclusive research.

950

All research is really hard to measure the impact of

951

because it's not like conversion rate optimization where

952

you'll change the color of a button,

953

and you'll be able to say that you've had an X percent

954

uplift in sales.

955

It's not how research works.

956

Research is complex, multifaceted.

957

You change lots of things.

958

Some things are short-term wins,

959

some things are longer term strategic initiatives.

960

It will give you such rich depth of insight that it can be

961

really hard to know what to measure.

962

So it's about knowing or...

963

Yes, okay, it's probably...

964

A lot of it is about satisfaction scores,

965

and this is something that we've been exploring is,

966

is there a way that we could have some form of satisfaction

967

score?

968

Massive caveat at this point,

969

I hate accessibility tools that give you a score out of 100.

970

I, I think it is really misleading, and I think that it is,

971

really dangerous actually because it gives you a,

972

a finish, and accessibility is never done.

973

so we would never be looking at providing a score in that

974

respect,

975

but I do think you could give satisfaction scores around

976

how are certain people with certain disabilities

977

experiencing your website.

978

Are they satisfied?

979

Because at the end of the day,

980

satisfaction is the thing that will dictate whether or not

981

you receive complaints,

982

whether or not people drop off your website,

983

whether or not they, engage with you in the first place.

984

If they are satisfied,

985

they will probably overcome bar-barriers to achieve a goal

986

because they're happy to do it.

987

So if we can find a way of like measuring satisfaction,

988

which is something that we are exploring,

989

then I think that that would give us a really good

990

indication of improvement,

991

which would then also allow people to, to,

992

to tangibly dem-demonstrate the benefit of doing inclusive

993

research, both human and AI.

994

Yeah.

995

No, incredible.

996

And again, that, that sort of being a bridge and, uh, the...

997

It, it shows you've thought of all avenues,

998

and you've probably had to because there could be a lot,

999

awful lot of backlash.

00:38:42,188 --> 00:38:42,648

But I...

00:38:42,688 --> 00:38:44,148

In my opinion, I think that obviously,

00:38:44,208 --> 00:38:46,048

clearly you're doing it for all of the right reasons.

00:38:46,108 --> 00:38:48,158

You've thought of all of those things, and,

00:38:48,188 --> 00:38:50,568

you're honest enough to say,

00:38:50,768 --> 00:38:54,318

if it is a negative thing or i-is sort of not received

00:38:54,388 --> 00:38:56,878

well, then, we'll, we'll go back to the drawing board.

00:38:56,888 --> 00:38:57,328

We'll pull it.

00:38:57,908 --> 00:39:00,748

And I, and, uh, and I welcome the skepticism.

00:39:00,908 --> 00:39:02,448

I think that any AI tool,

00:39:02,488 --> 00:39:04,348

we need to be critical about the way that we use it.

00:39:04,388 --> 00:39:05,508

We need to, we,

00:39:05,548 --> 00:39:08,717

we need to approach it with cons- with skepticism because

00:39:08,768 --> 00:39:10,468

there is risk that they do more harm than good,

00:39:10,548 --> 00:39:13,268

and we have seen evidence of that already in the last

00:39:13,308 --> 00:39:13,888

couple of years.

00:39:14,328 --> 00:39:17,948

So I, I am very wary of doing something like this.

00:39:18,528 --> 00:39:21,328

I, I think I am a skeptic myself,

00:39:21,448 --> 00:39:24,428

so I think I'm having to prove it to myself before I will

00:39:24,488 --> 00:39:26,148

ever kind of let it out in the world.

00:39:26,328 --> 00:39:30,988

But already we've seen such fantastic response in terms of

00:39:31,028 --> 00:39:33,388

people being able to see how they could use it to really

00:39:33,508 --> 00:39:34,478

challenge those mental models,

00:39:34,548 --> 00:39:36,448

really shift left with their accessibility thinking,

00:39:36,848 --> 00:39:39,408

and really embed it more easily across the organization,

00:39:39,908 --> 00:39:41,848

and I think that that is no bad thing,

00:39:41,988 --> 00:39:44,198

and that can only lead to us creating better,

00:39:44,268 --> 00:39:44,798

more effective,

00:39:44,848 --> 00:39:47,568

more equitable digital solutions that will work better for

00:39:47,628 --> 00:39:49,568

everyone, along the way.

00:39:49,628 --> 00:39:50,588

And as I say,

00:39:50,848 --> 00:39:53,448

ideally get people to prioritize and put money aside to

00:39:53,488 --> 00:39:54,688

then do human research,

00:39:55,088 --> 00:39:56,648

which the platform will direct you to do as well,

00:39:56,708 --> 00:39:57,027

by the way.

00:39:57,088 --> 00:39:58,258

So there is a point where it'll be like,

00:39:58,538 --> 00:39:59,888

"This is as far as we can take you.

00:40:00,288 --> 00:40:02,668

Go and speak to some human beings." So, um- Amazing ...

00:40:02,728 --> 00:40:03,228

it's...

00:40:03,268 --> 00:40:04,238

We're, we're fairly...

00:40:04,268 --> 00:40:04,528

Yeah.

00:40:04,588 --> 00:40:06,668

We've, we're very clear about our positioning as a bridge,

00:40:06,828 --> 00:40:10,348

and I hope that, I hope that people see that, and I'm,

00:40:10,418 --> 00:40:11,748

I'm looking forward to being able to share it with the

00:40:11,788 --> 00:40:13,388

world, hopefully come September when we get...

00:40:13,728 --> 00:40:15,148

We finally get round to launching it.

00:40:16,028 --> 00:40:17,307

I ca- I can't wait to see it.

00:40:17,508 --> 00:40:18,668

yeah, definitely.

00:40:18,688 --> 00:40:21,738

I think it's, uh, it's huge, huge potential,

00:40:21,788 --> 00:40:23,808

and thank you for, for putting your time, money,

00:40:23,847 --> 00:40:25,628

and effort into to doing something like that.

00:40:25,708 --> 00:40:27,488

I think it's so all for the greater good, isn't it?

00:40:27,588 --> 00:40:28,537

So amazing.

00:40:28,768 --> 00:40:32,268

and with that, you did describe yourself as an optimist.

00:40:32,408 --> 00:40:33,428

So looking ahead,

00:40:35,028 --> 00:40:37,018

what gives you the most optimism about the future for

00:40:37,068 --> 00:40:37,798

accessibility,

00:40:37,988 --> 00:40:42,708

and what's the one thing you'd most like to see change

00:40:42,948 --> 00:40:44,188

across the industry?

00:40:44,248 --> 00:40:45,568

Don't say audits.

00:40:45,688 --> 00:40:48,728

Oh, no, 'cause I obviously was gonna say that.

00:40:48,848 --> 00:40:51,218

what am I most optimistic about?

00:40:51,298 --> 00:40:52,888

I think that...

00:40:54,008 --> 00:40:57,648

I, I think that there is just such potential to,

00:40:57,708 --> 00:41:00,348

to create experiences that genuinely work for people.

00:41:00,448 --> 00:41:03,198

I think firstly, more people are listening,

00:41:03,248 --> 00:41:04,628

more people care.

00:41:04,708 --> 00:41:05,448

I think, you know, it's...

00:41:05,508 --> 00:41:07,568

Some of the stats suggest the opposite.

00:41:07,628 --> 00:41:09,488

Like I know obviously AbilityNet do their annual

00:41:09,528 --> 00:41:11,428

accessibilities, uh, attitudes survey,

00:41:11,468 --> 00:41:13,208

which is fascinating, and everybody should read it.

00:41:13,748 --> 00:41:15,808

and there has been kind of a dip in some people

00:41:15,868 --> 00:41:16,768

prioritizing it.

00:41:17,248 --> 00:41:19,848

I think cost of living crisis will always kind of impact

00:41:19,888 --> 00:41:20,428

things like that.

00:41:20,448 --> 00:41:22,578

There's obviously DEI initiatives being cut left, right,

00:41:22,608 --> 00:41:23,588

and center over the pond.

00:41:24,168 --> 00:41:27,248

but I think that on the whole,

00:41:27,548 --> 00:41:30,158

I feel that there is more appetite to have these

00:41:30,168 --> 00:41:30,758

conversations.

00:41:30,858 --> 00:41:32,828

More people are being aware of how important it is.

00:41:33,428 --> 00:41:36,528

so I think that the door is open to have these

00:41:36,568 --> 00:41:38,838

conversations more, which I think is fantastic,

00:41:38,888 --> 00:41:41,388

and I think if we can use our care framework, for example,

00:41:41,788 --> 00:41:43,417

to have those conversations more broadly,

00:41:43,468 --> 00:41:44,568

then we will open more doors.

00:41:44,628 --> 00:41:45,688

So I just think that there's,

00:41:46,108 --> 00:41:48,917

there's such potential for us to influence more people,

00:41:49,008 --> 00:41:52,208

but also there is such potential with emerging technology

00:41:52,268 --> 00:41:55,088

to create hyper-personalized experiences and to create

00:41:55,098 --> 00:41:58,108

tools that really do challenge the kind of traditional ways

00:41:58,148 --> 00:41:58,917

of doing things,

00:41:58,928 --> 00:42:01,528

which is really exciting once you kind of get over the,

00:42:01,588 --> 00:42:04,468

oh my god, it's gonna change the world, like fear moment,

00:42:04,568 --> 00:42:06,268

which I'm, I'm sure we've all gone through.

00:42:06,908 --> 00:42:10,588

And then what's the one thing that I wish we could change?

00:42:12,164 --> 00:42:13,164

I do think it's language.

00:42:13,324 --> 00:42:14,524

I- it's not just orders.

00:42:14,724 --> 00:42:17,004

I, I would love to be able to remove fear.

00:42:17,044 --> 00:42:19,073

I would love to rehumanize accessibility.

00:42:19,284 --> 00:42:21,644

I would love for people to remember that there are human

00:42:21,764 --> 00:42:24,244

beings who are struggling to use services on a daily basis,

00:42:24,584 --> 00:42:26,654

who are not empowered to live individual lives because of

00:42:26,664 --> 00:42:27,984

the decisions that we make.

00:42:28,364 --> 00:42:29,624

And I think if we remove fear,

00:42:29,804 --> 00:42:31,964

we remove the othering that happens around the disabled

00:42:32,004 --> 00:42:34,624

community, we invite people into those conversations,

00:42:35,204 --> 00:42:38,874

then we can be curious, we can have fun with it,

00:42:39,284 --> 00:42:41,204

and we can, at the end of the day,

00:42:41,264 --> 00:42:43,564

create better experiences for everyone.

00:42:43,644 --> 00:42:44,124

Yeah.

00:42:44,164 --> 00:42:45,404

No, amazing.

00:42:45,534 --> 00:42:47,264

S- I couldn't have said it be- couldn't have said it better

00:42:47,344 --> 00:42:47,884

myself.

00:42:47,984 --> 00:42:51,004

but Lucy, thank you so much for joining today.

00:42:51,024 --> 00:42:52,444

I'm not gonna take any more of your time up,

00:42:52,564 --> 00:42:54,834

but as much as I could probably speak to you- ...

00:42:54,844 --> 00:42:55,574

for the rest of the week,

00:42:55,714 --> 00:42:57,564

um- People will have switched off by this point, I'm sure,

00:42:57,664 --> 00:42:57,834

Joe.

00:42:58,144 --> 00:42:59,164

No, not at all.

00:42:59,604 --> 00:43:00,744

uh, well,

00:43:00,864 --> 00:43:03,113

if anyone does wanna hear more or learn more about Web

00:43:03,224 --> 00:43:06,064

Usability CollectivA11y, can they...

00:43:06,164 --> 00:43:07,404

how can they connect with you?

00:43:07,664 --> 00:43:08,844

where can they find you?

00:43:09,384 --> 00:43:09,844

Absolutely.

00:43:09,944 --> 00:43:13,944

So obviously, webusability.co.uk or CollectivA11y.com.

00:43:14,544 --> 00:43:17,464

I am on LinkedIn probably more than I should be,

00:43:17,624 --> 00:43:18,884

so please do connect.

00:43:18,984 --> 00:43:18,994

Uh,

00:43:19,304 --> 00:43:22,164

you will inevitably see some of my witterings around the

00:43:22,204 --> 00:43:25,144

topics of accessibility, AI, and also being a mum.

00:43:25,244 --> 00:43:27,584

so please reach out.

00:43:27,624 --> 00:43:29,874

I'd absolutely love to have chats with absolutely anyone

00:43:30,364 --> 00:43:32,324

who would like to talk about all the things that I am

00:43:32,364 --> 00:43:35,344

interested in and more, because I love people and, uh,

00:43:35,424 --> 00:43:36,224

I love talking to people.

00:43:36,324 --> 00:43:38,694

So yeah, reach out at any of those channels, and thanks,

00:43:38,824 --> 00:43:40,184

Joe, so much for having me on the podcast.

00:43:40,224 --> 00:43:41,474

It's been such a lovely opportunity.

00:43:42,064 --> 00:43:42,704

Oh, of course.

00:43:42,764 --> 00:43:43,544

And I can,

00:43:43,644 --> 00:43:46,994

fully advocate and recommend reaching out to Lucy 'cause

00:43:47,104 --> 00:43:49,704

it's been nothing but a pleasure every time I've spoken to

00:43:49,724 --> 00:43:49,784

you.

00:43:49,904 --> 00:43:52,344

So yeah, 100%, uh, definitely reach out.

00:43:52,424 --> 00:43:53,844

But thanks to everyone for listening.

00:43:54,064 --> 00:43:54,184

Uh,

00:43:54,364 --> 00:43:56,804

see you on the next episode of The Digital Accessibility

00:43:56,864 --> 00:43:57,344

Podcast.

00:43:57,544 --> 00:43:58,103

Thanks, Lucy.

00:43:58,644 --> 00:43:59,004

Thank you.