In this clarifying episode, Scott Ritzheimer, Founder of Scale Architects, shares why adding systems and processes too early is one of the fastest ways to force yourself into whitewater. If you’ve invested in structure yet still feel stuck, slowed down, or drowning in complexity at a relatively small size, you won’t want to miss it.

You will discover:

- Why heavy systems and processes in the Fun stage slow operators and create artificial complexity

- How to diagnose whether you are overprocessed instead of legitimately over-operated.

- What to do: increase quality operators and filter every system through what helps them succeed

This episode is ideal for for Founders, Owners, and CEOs in stages 3,4,5 of The Founder's Evolution. Not sure which stage you're in? Find out for free in less than 10 minutes at https://www.scalearchitects.com/founders/quiz

Scott Ritzheimer is the founder of Scale Architects and a leading expert on organizational life cycle and founder leadership. He has helped launch nearly twenty thousand businesses and nonprofits and, before turning thirty-five, built and sold his own multimillion-dollar company after a decade of double-digit growth. Today he helps founders and CEOs who have people to lead but are still buried in the daily grind, giving them a clear next step instead of a theory. He is host of the Start Scale Succeed podcast and author of The Founder's Game.

Want to learn more about Scott Ritzheimer's work at Scale Architects? Check out his website at https://www.scalearchitects.com/

Connect with Scott through his LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottritzheimer/

Pre-order a copy of Scott Ritzheimer's book "The Founder’s Game" at https://www.scottritzheimer.com/book/pre-order

Hello, hello, and welcome, welcome once again

to the Start Scale and Succeed podcast, the only podcast that

grows with you through all seven levels of your journey as a

founder. We are now in part three of our "You're Not in

Whitewater dot dot dot yet" series, where we're not talking

about the levels of the founder's evolution, but instead

we're talking about the stages that organizations go through

together, and one of those really important stages-one that

I spend a lot of time working with my clients in-is the

whitewater stage. And a big part of the reason why you might have

heard about me or started following this probably had to

do with whitewater. You heard me talking about it somewhere. You

heard one of our scale architects talk about it

somewhere, or you heard Les talk about it. The guy who created

the model, the predictable success model. And what we're

exploring here in this series is the growing phenomena. I guess

you could call it pattern, maybe more appropriate, where I'm

seeing more and more and more organizations end up in

whitewater prematurely by their own doing, not for the right

reasons than ever before, and I think it's a trend that's going

to continue. I think it's actually going to accelerate

because when you look at it, there's actually three times as

many ways, or at least you know three times as many groups of

ways. There's an infinite number of ways, but there are three

times as many ways to end up in whitewater for the wrong reason

as there is to end up in whitewater for the right reason.

So in episode one, if you haven't seen that in this little

mini series, I'd encourage you to go back to it because I lay

some of the foundation. We talk about what the different stages

are, just in case you're new to the the predictable success life

cycle. We talk about the different leadership styles,

which is a really really important part of how

organizations end up in whitewater by mistake. We talk

about why it matters, like what's the problem with getting

into whitewater too early, and we actually built on that a

little more in episode two. So, if you want to know more about

why getting into whitewater early is a bad thing, check out

the second episode in this little series. In this third

series, we're going to talk about the second reason why

organizations end up in whitewater prematurely. Now,

again, the first reason, which we talked about in the previous

episode, is that they are overvisioned, and the only right

reason is that they are overoperated. So the goal then

is to make sure that your organization only ever gets to

Whitewater by having too much operator to sustain that

success. If you're overvision, or if you're wondering what

overvision is, or you think you might be overvisioned, check out

the previous episode. In this one, we're going to talk about

one of you know maybe the most confusing reasons, and that is

that you can end up in whitewater because you are

overprocessed. Now, again, if you've been following along in a

couple of these episodes, you might think that's insane

because, again, if you're familiar with the model at all,

you know that what do you have to do when you're in whitewater?

You have to add systems and processes. The reason why you're

in whitewater is because you don't have enough system and

process, and there's too much complexity, and you need system

and process to overcome that complexity. Then why in the

world would adding system and process put you into whitewater?

And if you're in whitewater because you have too much system

and complexity, you have too much system and process. Then,

how in the world do you get out? Because the only way out, Scott,

is to to add system and process. If we have too much, how can we

add more and think that it's going to change anything? It

won't. It won't. And that's the point. That's the that's the

whole problem with ending up here. Now, how does this happen?

Let's unwind this a little bit because it's really important to

understand how we get here. Because this is again, I think

the it could very well become the the most common reason why

organizations struggle with whitewater when they shouldn't.

I think it's going to pass being overvisioned if it hasn't

already. And here's what the problem is, and it's twofold.

One, people who've been through whitewater, or people who help

people through whitewater, folks who understand the whitewater

stage, and have learned the lessons of needing more system

and process, when they are asked, "Hey, what do I do to

grow? How do I scale? They, because Whitewater is so

painful, one of the very first things they're going to say is,

"You need to have systems and processes to scale, and that is

accurate for somebody who's legitimately in Whitewater who

has over-operated. And can no longer sustain fun. The path

forward for them is absolutely to add system and process. Now

it's a very specific set of systems and processes. It's not

just system and process galore, and it's and it's to use those

systems and processes in a very specific way, not just to throw

them haphazardly at everything, or ask ChatGPT to make you a

handbook. That's not going to do anything. Instead, you have to

have the right systems. You have to embrace those systems, and

you have to you have to build them into the way that you lead.

It has to change the way that you lead. Now, how do we end up

here prematurely? Well, those folks who recognize, hey, I've

been through whitewater. I know what that's like. I know how we

got out. It was by adding systems and processes. They tell

other people you need systems and processes, but everyone

fails to recognize that there's a timing to this, that there's a

sequence to it. That when you're a young organization in early

struggle, systems and processes aren't going to do anything if

you don't even know what you're having to systematize or process

in the first place. If you're creating a new product and you

don't even know what it is yet, you can't build a system for

delivering it. Right now, that's a little extreme, but it's kind

of the same thing all across the board in early struggle, and so

what I'm getting is there's a right time and place for system

and process, and the right time for for system wide, enterprise

wide system and process for a systematic way of leading the

organization. The time for that is when you get into whitewater

again because you've overoperated, but that also

means that that time is not before that, because here's the

operators, the folks that you want to drive you

toward Whitewater, if we could say it that way. Let me say it a

operators, the ones who are going to make the most

fun in fun, the ones who are going to let you get the biggest

in fun. The ones who will need the least management from you in

fun. The ones who can create the most success in fun. Those

folks, they don't like systems and processes. Not overly

cumbersome ones. They will deal with as little system and

process is as needed, and probably not a whole lot more,

because one of the things you need to know about operators is

that the motto of a great operator is "Tell me what to do

and don't watch. You can tell me what to do, but I don't want you

hovering over my shoulder telling me how to do it. That's

the way that operators work. Well, what happens when we hear,

oh, you need systems and processes to scale. And instead

of letting our operators have room to breathe and do their

thing and grow the organization their way, we go in and we start

imposing systems and processes on them. What do you think a

great operator is going to do in that circumstance? They're gone,

right? They're gonna. They're either going to ignore the

system and process, and if you're wise enough, you'll

actually let them because you're the one who's wrong, or they

will leave and find somewhere else where they can work without

having someone over their shoulder 24/7. Because operators

hate being micromanaged, and the amount of system and process you

need to get out of Whitewater will leave a lot of operators,

not all of them, but a lot of them, feeling micromanaged.

So operators are this like critical gift for the fun stage,

and we want to set up our system in the fun stage for operators

so that we can get as big as possible, as simple as possible.

And when we add system and process. We actually

artificially add complexity because it's actually more

complicated to do the thing and write it down and follow the

checklist and report to five different people than it is to

do the thing, right? Like that. That's that's indisputable. And

so when we add system and process, here's what's here's

what happens. The the best way I can describe what being over

processed is and why it pushes you to whitewater prematurely is

it's kind of like if you took I I drive a little pickup truck

and if you take even that little pickup truck and you take its

brakes right you take its brakes off that's the dangerous

vehicle. That that's not a pleasant thing to drive because

the moment you've got to stop at an intersection, you're in an

accident. So those brakes are a good thing. Agreed, right? It's

pretty straightforward. Well, what happens when I put those

brakes on my mountain bike? I mean, that that's a good like if

it can stop my truck, it can stop my bike, right? I mean,

like they're gonna be plenty strong enough. If I'm gonna, you

know, pedal faster and go faster, eventually I'm gonna

need that, right? I know it's ridiculous, but but this is

that's the point. This is ridiculous. What happens if you

put the the braking system from my truck onto my mountain bike?

First thing that's going to happen is when I'm trying to

pedal, they're going to get in the way and they're going to

slow me down. That's what systems and processes do to your

operators. They just get in their way and slow them down.

And then what happens? Heaven forbid, where I ever touch the

brake lever and activate that braking system, it's way too

much for the bike. And so the moment I do, boom, straight over

the handlebars, right? Not even a glimmer of hope of avoiding

it. That would be insane. No one would do that. At least I hope

no one would do that. But that's exactly what we do. We think I

got to pedal faster, so I need to get the brakes from something

that's faster, and I need to put them on my vehicle. Another

braking analogy, and this one might help as well. Fun is a

little bit like NASCAR on an oval circuit. The goal is to go

and to go fast. If you're using your brakes on an oval circuit,

you're either coming into the pit lane or avoiding an

accident. Like those are the only two reasons, because the

rest of the time you should be pedal to the metal or close,

because how in the you know how are you gonna like you just

you're you're just going you're just going, and so when you look

at the braking system on a NASCAR vehicle, right? I think

they have 1000 horsepower, something like that. These are

monster engines, super powerful machines with these teeny little

itty bitty brakes, because the brakes would just slow them

down. Well, what happens whenever they go to a street

circuit, or what happens when you go to a Formula One style or

you know indie style street circuit? You need much bigger

brakes. The brakes on a Formula One car, even though it's much

lighter and less powerful, are significantly more powerful the

brakes are than those on a NASCAR vehicle set up for an

oval track. Why? Because you're using brakes a lot. You have to

slow down to speed up. In fact, the fastest way around the track

is to slow down the most at the right points. You actually can

exit a corner faster by slowing down better. Otherwise, you just

end up in the wall. And so, both of these, I want to show you.

Systems and processes are like breaks for your organization.

And when the time comes that you need them, you need them. And

so, when you move to a street circuit, something that has

something other than just left turns, you will very quickly

recognize the need for them. And if you don't, it's pretty

catastrophic.

Which is why people who've been through that experience are so

right to say you have to have systems and processes. But if

you add all that breaking to your team that's just trying to

go in a straight line as fast as they can. The only thing it's

going to do is slow you down, and then throw you into

whitewater prematurely. What's going on here is that folks

who've either been through Whitewater and want to help

others, or folks who see that Whitewater exists-right? You've

read the Predictable Success book. You know that Whitewater's

out there. We have the temptation to try and skip

Whitewater. We think, well, if I can add those systems and

processes now, then I'll never feel the pain of whitewater, and

if you've got anything from this episode, I hope you recognize

that it's that doesn't work. It actually makes whitewater twice

as long, twice as expensive, and twice as hard, because you hit

whitewater with less velocity. And I know I'm throwing a bunch

of metaphors at you, but I really want to land the point,

and I actually had someone who who had a bunch of whitewater

experience who said to me, the safest way to hit whitewater

rapids is to hit them as fast as you can. When you have a big

rapid, you want to get as much momentum going into it as you

possibly can, so that you have the greatest opportunity to

steer and navigate through it. That's what's going on for

organizations. When organizations are overprocessed,

they hit whitewater without the requisite momentum. Why is that

a problem? Well, it's a really big problem because, like we've

mentioned earlier, you have to, if you're going to get through

whitewater that you created on your own by having too much

system and process, you have to simultaneously reduce system and

process, increase operator, usually increase some vision as

well to get through it, and add systems and processes all at the

same time. Like that screws with your mind, and it's really

really hard to do. What happens is more often than not, and I've

helped folks through this before I recognize what was going on.

I've helped folks do this exact thing. I've helped folks to add

more system and process that they need than they needed,

thinking it would help them. And here's what happens every single

time, and and it's. It's unfortunate because most of the

time folks can't even see that they've done this until the end.

Here's how you know, and unfortunately it's at the very

end. But here's how you know if you were overprocessed when you

started dealing with whitewater, it's that when you do the things

that you need to to get out of whitewater, and again they're

very specific. Read the Predictable Success book. We're

not really going to talk about what those are too much in this

series, but there's a ton of great information on it. This

this one right here looks like this: Predictable Success by Les

McEwen. When you do all of those things, you can check all the

boxes. You can have a great org chart, perfect job descriptions,

crystal clear strategy on how you're going to get to

predictable success, and you'll add all of that system and

structure, and it will amount to absolutely nothing. Your

organization won't grow any faster on the other side of it.

It's crazy. When and and that's not because those things don't

work. Because if I take an organization that's

overoperated, and even some that are overvisioned, and I put them

through the that same course, that same set of practices, and

and same set of processes, and same set of structures. Most of

them will something like triple their bottom line. Some of them

will double their revenue in the first year after doing that. The

transformation is unbelievable when you do the right things at

the right time, but if you try and do all of those things early

because you arbitrarily push yourself into whitewater by

putting too much system and process on your operators, it's

not going to work.

So the second big reason why folks end up in whitewater

prematurely, and I think it's going to be the first big reason

very soon, is that they they take all of the talk in our

world now about systems and processes, systems and

processes, systems and processes, and they take those

big heavy braking systems and they stick them on their little

mountain bike and they're pedaling harder than ever and

not getting anywhere. And so, if you're sitting there thinking,

here's probably the best way that you can diagnose this ahead

of time. If you're sitting there thinking, "Hey, we've really

invested in systems and processes, and honestly, I think

they're good systems and processes, but I can't tell a

difference. We're not any more profitable. We're not any. We're

not. Our revenue is not growing like crazy. We're still not able

to scale. If you added all of those, there's a chance that you

added the wrong ones. But there's also a good chance that

you added the right ones at the wrong time. You added them too

soon. Here's another thing, and we talked about this in the

previous episode, but it applies here as well. If you end up

overprocessed and in whitewater, one of the ways to tell that you

did it too soon is to look at how many people you have on your

team, because while it's not perfect, the head count should

give us a decent way of approximating complexity, and if

you're sitting there and you've got great systems and processes,

and there's 15 or 20 of you on the team, and that's bigger than

it's ever been before, but you are drowning in whitewater.

There's you're dropping the ball over the stuff. Stuff's going

wrong. Your systems and processes aren't working. You

probably have too much system and process. You've probably

tried to overcompensate for a lack of competent process. I'm

sorry, operators. A lack of competent or quality operators.

You've tried to compensate for that by adding a bunch of system

and process to something. You've overcooked it, and you still

don't have enough operator to grow. Well, if that's you, what

do you do? And just like if you're overvisioned, what you

have to do is you actually have to go back before you go

forward. It's kind of like you were driving down the road next

to a river, and there was a bunch of rapids over here, and

they're not the ones that you want to be in, but they look

kind of fun. And instead of driving down the road at 60

miles an hour, you all jumped out and got into the rapids, and

you're just bouncing around for no reason at all. Let's get back

on the road. You're going to move a lot faster on the road.

How do we do that? We actually do that by not necessarily just

lessening system and process, because that's kind of an

arbitrary thing. We just like let's just abolish processes.

Instead, what I want you to do is not think so much about

lessening system and process, but about increasing the

operatorness of your organization, and that's going

to happen in two different ways. First, you're going to have to

make sure you have good operators on the team, or go get

some. Then, what you want to do is take your decision making,

your systems, your processes, your products, everything that

you do, and I want you to run it through this filter. What can we

do to this to help our operators succeed even more? How can we

simplify what we're doing so that our operators can? Succeed

even more, and when you use quality operators as the lens,

as the litmus test for whether you need a system or not,

whether you need a process or not, whether you need another

idea or not, when you really focus in on just equipping those

really great operators to go get stuff done, not to be super

strategic, not to be the most innovative, but to go and sell

and deliver and sell and deliver and sell and deliver and sell

and deliver until you have a gigantic organization that's

wonderful in every way. I'm being a little facetious, but

you get the point. Go find the operators and then refine all of

what you do, from how you make decisions to what checklists you

have.

Refine all of that using the lens. How can we make this serve

our operators better? And then listen. They will tell you what

sucks, and they're probably right. At least, if they're a

quality operator and they're complaining about something,

well, sometimes quality operators complain, so we have

to be a little careful with this. But even so, if they're

complaining about something and they're saying, "Hey, that's not

necessary. That's too much. Why are we doing that? It's too

complicated, then at least listen. At least listen, because

they very well may be onto something, and so that's what

happens when we're overprocessed. We end up in

whitewater prematurely. We set ourselves on a path for doing

all the right things and getting none of the right results, and

that's miserable. You don't want to be there. Instead, what we

can do is get out of whitewater, get back on the highway, and get

a lot bigger, a lot more successful, and have a ton of

fun doing it. This I'm realizing that this is coming across a

little negative, but it really shouldn't. I actually get

really, really excited when I come across an organization that

is prematurely in whitewater because I can recognize pretty

quickly they don't actually need to go through whitewater. They

don't need to do the the open heart surgery that is the the

stuff of getting through whitewater to predictable

success. They don't have to do that right now. I can look at an

organization and recognize, hey, they've got another five or 10

years of fun ahead of them. Let's go back there and crush

it. And again, you'll see organizations that can get four

times as large without tipping back into whitewater.

Legitimately, literally seen that, and that could be the same

for you. So, if you're overprocessed, it's important to

recognize that you probably are a big part of putting you there,

you might like process a little bit more than you should, and if

that's the case, then we just need to tap the brakes on the

brakes. We need to we need to chill out on the system and

structure, and we just need to find some good people, and we

need to help manage them well, and that's what's going to help

those of you who are overprocessed and end up ended

up in whitewater because of it to get back to fun and

thoroughly enjoy both being in fun and growing in fun. It can

be very cool. With that, that sets us up for the third most

likely reason or the third wrong way to get into whitewater, and

this is the one that nonprofits struggle with almost all the

time. So, if you're a nonprofit leader in particular, or if

you're a very people-oriented leader, even if you're in the

for-profit world, then you are not going to want to miss the

next episode in this series because this is what happens to

people leaders that causes them to accidentally get into

whitewater way too soon. I'll show you what it is, why it

happens, and what you can do about it. All that in the next

episode. I'll see you there. Hey everyone, Scott Ritzheimer here.

Thank you so much for listening to the Start Scale and Succeed

podcast. I hope this episode gave you exactly what you need

for the level you're in right now. If you want to discover

what level you're in, take our 10-question Founders Evolution

Quiz for free at foundersquiz.com. That's

foundersquiz.com. It'll pinpoint exactly where you are and give

you tailored tips to move forward and reach that next

level in your journey as a founder. If you got something

out of today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, or

review. It helps us reach more founders like you, and let's be

honest, it means a ton to me, my team, and all our incredible

guests. So keep starting, scaling, and succeeding, and

I'll see you in the next episode.