Tom Dumoulin was one of the most successful riders of his generation. A Giro d'Italia winner, a world TT champion, a stage winner at every grand tour and an Olympic medallist.

His decision to step away from cycling during 2021 shocked the sport, and Tom admitted he'd lost his passion for the sport. When he returned few expected him to return to his competitive best. But Tom was able to secure a second Olympic medal in Tokyo.

This wide ranging conversation with Bobby and Jens sees Tom explore his inadvertent entry into the world of professional cycling, why he lost his love and how he rediscovered his verve for the sport. He discusses what's changed since he left the sport, the riders he admires... and the radical solution to cycling's inequality problem that he picked up at this year's Tour de France.

This podcast is available in video on the OddTandem Youtube channel and ad free on the Odd Tandem Patreon page.

Follow us on social media just search for @OddTandem on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok and Instagram.

Youtube.com/@oddtandem

Hello everyone, and welcome

to another episode of The Odd Tandem.

2

Our guest today

has won stages in all three Grand Tours.

3

He won the overall Giro d'Italia in 2017.

4

He's been the world

time trial champion, as well as two time

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Olympic silver medalist in the time trial.

6

With a mountain of success over the years,

7

one would think all was fine and dandy.

8

But then suddenly, out of the blue,

he decided that he needed to take a break

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from cycling to sort a couple things out

and Jensie

10

after the talk that we had with him

just now,

11

I think he's

well on his way to sorting things out.

12

Don't you agree?

13

Well, absolutely.

14

It was because he was the first high

profile athlete of our sport

15

to take a break and talking about, hey,

I felt the pressure.

16

I didn't like it.

17

And to see him now,

he's still smiling at it and goes, yeah,

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I didn't like this thing I loved before,

I started to hate it,

19

so I needed some distance from it

to share that with us.

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And the way he came back,

21

it's nice to see him

that he found his happy place in life.

22

So sit back and relax and listen

to our great interview with Tom Dumoulin.

23

All right everybody,

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special guest today, Tom Dumoulin

and welcome to the Odd Tandem.

25

Thank you. Thank you.

26

I have to say, you know,

we have this little draft board,

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little list of people, and you've been

on that list for a very, very long time.

28

I mean, our careers didn't really

you know, I didn't race with you.

29

I was already, well, retired

by the time you started racing.

30

But, I'm super excited about today.

31

you've always been

a very interesting rider, in my opinion.

32

I always like big guys

that could climb in time trial.

33

And you did very well

at both of those things. So.

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So we do this little thing

with a couple questions

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just to kind of get the ball rolling

a little bit, little quickfire things.

36

So you game for a little four question

quick fire up.

37

So sure. Go ahead.

38

All right.

39

Nowadays

preferred activity a bike ride or a run.

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run.

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Okay.

42

Favorite grand tour?

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Giro, Tour of Vuelta.

44

tour de France.

45

Okay.

46

And these days,

when you're out there running or biking,

47

do you prefer to fuel with Haribo

gummy bears or like,

48

gels?

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nothing.

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I just just ride.

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I just go short enough to not eat.

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That's a great idea.

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That's that's that's smart.

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Okay.

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Last one, because, quite interested in

to hear your response here.

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Do you prefer or did you prefer training

57

with a power meter or just on sensations?

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Sensations?

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Okay. Yeah, definitely.

60

I didn't think you would answer that.

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You kind of came off to me

as being a very cerebral, scientific guy.

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So. Yeah.

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Tell us, tell us why you would choose,

the sensations over power.

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Were you not like a, a numbers guy?

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no, I really wasn't, actually.

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Yeah, I was, I was really going.

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I'm feeling a lot of at the time,

I was very interested in all the data

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and all the scientific things behind it,

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but I would always,

have my feeling lead me.

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So eventually,

at the race, my feeling would

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be the starting and the end, you know,

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and I would have the data

help me a little bit, but,

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mostly in training and,

not really in racing and racing and,

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my, my job, my goal,

my ambition was to to be as fast

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and as good as possible, you know,

and then the data wouldn't really help me.

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So in the races, I didn't use it very much

only in time trials.

77

And then only in the first, like,

let's say ten minutes

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to get my pacing slightly right,

you know, but

79

to make sure that you,

you don't start way too fast

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because of the adrenaline

and not to start to slow.

81

So I would have a little bit of

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a help with the data and my time trials.

83

But after that I would just go on feeling.

84

Yeah, that is actually quite unusual,

especially in these days.

85

we had not long too long ago

we had, Josh Tarling,

86

a really good time trialer

and he was talking,

87

I think, at least twice about pacing

or three times pacing strategy.

88

So nowadays

they go, hey, Josh Tarling’s a big boy So.

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Hey, Josh you go

460 watts up this little highway bridge.

90

And then you recover with 250W.

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And then, honestly, 420W,

92

you wouldn't ever really be

too much into that.

93

Well, I would make a plan, beforehand.

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So, together with my trainer,

I would make a plan like that.

95

But then I would,

it would go out of the window because,

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well, not completely out of the window,

but I would use it in the back of my mind

97

as a sort of a benchmark, like, okay,

this is something I would like to do, but,

98

I would not look too much to my,

to my power data alone.

99

I would always go on feeling and,

and use the data

100

only as a small help during the race.

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But I think if you prepare well,

102

then you don't really need the data

at the,

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at the moment itself because, you need it

a little bit, but not too much.

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Yeah.

105

And, you know, you

106

started off in a pretty small team

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and you ended your career on probably,

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you know, the biggest team

that we've seen.

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what were some of those

what were some of the differences between

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when you, when you started and

when you ended both positive and negative.

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Phwoar, It was huge.

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Yeah.

113

I no the difference couldn't be bigger.

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But I think it's not only the difference

in teams, but mostly different

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in 12 years.

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You know, the, world of cycling changed

so much from when I started my career.

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And when I ended my career,

it was just more like data driven,

118

more scientific, more,

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more specialized and in all

120

aspects

121

of the sport, you know, in nutrition,

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in training, in mental

coaching, in everything.

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It was just perfected.

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But for me, it took,

it took a little bit my,

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the adventure feeling away that I had

in the sport and a little bit the, the,

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the joy that I had in the sport

because it got so it got to be so

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clean, like, okay, you just eat this

and you train this and then you get this

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end result, you know, and for me, it

it doesn't work like that.

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And it didn't work like that.

And that was the biggest change that,

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that

131

I had

been experiencing throughout my career.

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but that didn't really have to do so much

133

with difference in teams,

but more so, the change in sport,

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when we already talked about, the teams,

I know it's a big jump,

135

but let's move

backwards another 15 years earlier.

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When and how did you actually get in

touch with cycling?

137

How do you start your parents,

your older brother or whatever?

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Yeah, a friends of you got you into

cycling or how do you get into it?

139

I mean, it's common in Holland

to use a bike on a daily basis right?

140

To ride to school and all that. But yeah.

141

When did you ever found out,

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did you have some interest

in like, racing with a license?

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Yeah.

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It's very common

to, to use a bike as a transportation

145

in the Netherlands,

but not so common, to use it as a,

146

as a sports thing,

you know, as a, as a so,

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it was a

148

complete coincidence that I started

riding, actually, I yeah, I had,

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I always had a good condition,

so I could run really fast.

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so I tried, I athletics,

but I needed to do everyday

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sport, you know, I needed to do, jumping.

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I needed to do high jump and,

spear throwing and stuff like that,

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and I didn't like that,

so I only wanted to run,

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but it wasn't possible

at the athletic club that I want to.

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And then I thought,

oh, let's try a different,

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sport that that focuses on

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physical condition,

which was cycling for me.

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At what age, what age? 15.

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So it just by coincidence, I,

160

I went to the club and I, I was like,

I want to try this thing called cycling.

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And I know nothing about it.

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My parents didn't do it.

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my, my, my sisters didn't do it.

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None of my friends.

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I was just I went there and I thought,

maybe this is something for me.

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And I started riding, and I.

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I wasn't very good, but I liked it.

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And I saw it as a pure hobby

that I did twice a week.

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You know, like, a lot of kids go twice

a week to the to the football club.

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I went twice a week to the cycling club.

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But other than that,

it was not really with,

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with my mind on being a professional

rider or something.

173

that started only when I was like 18, 19.

174

I got

I got progressively better every year,

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and I enjoyed it more every year.

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And every year I got more ambitious.

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And then suddenly,

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the national team invited me to go on

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club training or on, on the,

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on national

training with the national team.

181

and then it was suddenly very good.

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I, I won all the hills sprints

that we did in the training

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and I could tag along for one Nations

Cup race.

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so the International Nations Cup

race that that,

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yeah, that you do as a under 23 rider.

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And I went there,

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I didn't even have a

there was it, it was a multiple day event.

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So stage was of three

stages, of which one was a time trial.

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But I never did a time trial in my life.

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Not on the TT bike.

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I didn't even have a TT bike at the time.

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So I borrowed one off my friend,

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from the same cycling club

as I was in in the Netherlands.

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And then,

I raced the time trial and I won it

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in front of Nelson Oliveira.

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and Nairo Quintana was there and, yeah

many of the of the guys that I also became

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professional with, and I was sort of

this new kid that nobody heard of.

198

and I won the, time

trial and I won the GC.

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And then,

200

the ball started

201

rolling and,

the professional teams got interested,

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but it was really not really my goal of

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of becoming a professional rider. Now

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I want to go back and touch

on something that you said about,

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you know, the

the way the sport had changed

206

wasn't quite

the way that you wanted to do it

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and why I'm so excited

that you're on the podcast

208

today is like I said,

I was a huge fan of yours.

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And then it just seemed

like all of a sudden

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there was, it seemed like a conflict.

211

And you actually wound up taking,

like some time away from the sport.

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can you explain a little bit

about that decision

213

to take that time away

and what you did during that time

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in order to kind of, you know,

rekindle the flames and get started again?

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do you have a minute?

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I mean, we have all the time.

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You want, right?

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Like, this is what I want to hear.

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And, well, I got

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so I became professional in 2012,

and it was all a big adventure, you know,

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it was all fun and games

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and I, like I said, I didn't really aim

to become a professional rider.

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Was not really my big childhood dream.

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I just became one suddenly, and then,

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so it was it it was just a big adventure.

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And I wanted to become better,

and I got better and better, and I, I,

227

I had a lot of, talent for it,

and I liked it, and,

228

but then it became I suddenly in 2015,

229

I almost won the Vuelta

until I lost it on the last day. And

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then I went on to, yeah, to to become,

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second that at the Olympics,

I won the Giro d'Italia.

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I became world champion time trial.

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And it was sort of,

my career went faster than

234

I mentally could cope with, you know,

I suddenly got

235

I didn't know how to deal

with the pressure

236

or, or.

237

Well, the team wanted something from me

that the sponsors had an idea

238

about my career, the fans, the everybody

had an idea of becoming even better.

239

And then suddenly,

240

the thing that was my dream

became the dream of of many.

241

And I found it

very hard to cope with that.

242

And then the years after,

243

I made the move to, to Jumbo-Visma,

which was a big move.

244

And they, they,

they reeled me in like like

245

I was the big Dutch rider who's

going to win the tour de France for them.

246

And I quickly found out that I just,

247

I felt

like there was a weight on my shoulders

248

and I couldn't

handle the training anymore,

249

and I couldn't handle the pressure

in there and and everything anymore.

250

And at the end of 2020, corona year.

251

So we had at the end of that season,

we had all the races

252

compressed in a couple of months.

253

So with only limited amount of,

of of preparation,

254

we needed to do all these races and,

and with being,

255

already mentally on the edge,

I completely drained myself.

256

And I was just mentally and physically,

I was completely drained,

257

at the end of 2020.

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So in the beginning of 2021

and I tried to restart

259

my training again,

but it I felt completely drained.

260

I couldn't even ride my bike

for two hours.

261

And I was, just a wreck.

262

So I decided to, to to stop

and to take a break.

263

not even with the intention of

of of coming back.

264

but then I had a break of like

two months.

265

I didn't ride my bike, for two months,

266

from mid-February, I think.

267

No end of January until end of March.

268

And then at the end of March, I felt

269

physically slightly better again.

270

I felt mentally much fresher.

271

And I knew the Olympics

were going to be that year in Tokyo.

272

and they were on, on my mind

already for five, 4 or 5 years, actually,

273

because they got postponed one year

because of corona.

274

And it was the ideal course for me,

275

the time trial course it was

and was just perfect.

276

And, I had this goal in my mind

already for 4 or 5 years.

277

And, and then I decided

in the end of March, with no,

278

no training at all,

I decided I need to try this.

279

I need to

I need to go to Tokyo and try this.

280

And if it doesn't, if I fail

if it doesn't work out, so be it.

281

But then at least I tried it.

282

And I told the the national coach

and I said, sorry.

283

Koos.

284

Koos is his name Koos

Moerenhout also ex-professional.

285

And I said, Koos

I haven't rode my I haven't,

286

rode my bike yet,

but I really want to go to Tokyo.

287

and I knew this

288

selection had to be made that

that month already.

289

So I had all my faith in his hands,

and he said, okay, Tom,

290

there's only one time trial specialist

in the Netherlands who could

291

potentially have, a shot for a medal,

and that's you.

292

So I'm going to select you and.

293

And that's all the trust that I needed.

294

and then I worked as hard as I could,

295

which wasn't very hard

because I was physically

296

and mentally still not 100% yet,

but I worked as hard as I could.

297

And then I got,

I got the silver in Tokyo, which was

298

when I was one of the nicest performances

that I had throughout my career.

299

and that was actually the sole reason

that I,

300

that I really wanted to come back to,

to chase this dream of,

301

of maybe becoming an Olympic champion

or to at least get a medal.

302

but yeah, I found out after Tokyo again.

303

Then I also said to the team

304

leading up to Tokyo, because the years

305

before, I felt so much pressure

from from the team.

306

not only from the team,

but of everyone around them.

307

Not not with bad intentions,

but I felt a lot of pressure,

308

and I said, let me do it my way.

309

On feeling again.

310

Forget all the data.

311

forget all the

I need to do this on feeling

312

I'm still coming back from from burnout

or overtraining, you know?

313

and and that's what I did.

314

I did it completely, feeling,

the whole preparation,

315

when I felt tired,

I took a step back when.

316

And it felt like

this dream was mine again.

317

it was not the dream of many.

318

It was my dream.

319

And I felt, from the inside

that it was very special.

320

And, Yeah, that's

that's that's sort of the story

321

around me, having this, this break.

322

I always say that

323

cyclists are so darn tough,

324

but what you just shared

with us, our viewers and our listeners

325

about that mental side is,

326

is crazy powerful.

327

when you know,

328

we're not supposed to talk about

this mental side of the sport, right?

329

We're all supposed to be these tough guys

that go out and win bike races.

330

when when you took that time off,

331

I saw some adventures that you went on.

332

You went to the Himalayas,

333

you went to Costa Rica,

you kind of went all over the place with,

334

what was that about?

335

Was that trying to kind of sort things

336

out in your head, or was it like, hey,

I still love the bike.

337

I just want to enjoy it

in a different way.

338

No, but, there's,

339

the Himalayas and Costa Rica I did

when I really retired.

340

So two years ago,

I went to to to Sweden to,

341

to, to watch the,

how do you see the northern Lights?

342

When I was, when I was having this break.

343

So it was beautiful, but,

No, I was different.

344

Different from,

345

the things that I did after my career.

346

Yeah.

347

That was also to clear my mind

and to to do completely different things.

348

But it was,

349

during this break,

it was really with the in.

350

Well, I didn't have an intention at all.

351

I, I didn't know if I was going

to come back to cycling yes or no.

352

so I went,

353

I went off to, to clear my head and to.

354

Yeah, to

355

see if I would still love riding my bike.

356

And actually,

the thing that triggered me to really come

357

back was middle of April 2021

358

when the, Amstel gold race, was

359

because, the Amstel Gold race was always,

360

well, like I said, as a child,

I had nothing to do with cycling.

361

My family had nothing to do with cycling.

362

The only race that I watched

once a year was the,

363

the Amstel Gold race,

because the finish of the Amstel Gold race

364

was really close to my home in Maastricht

in the very south of the Netherlands.

365

and that triggered me to,

366

to get into cycling

when I was a 15 year old kid.

367

And it triggered me again

368

when, when, when I had this

369

I went as a, as a spectator to,

to watch the Amstel gold race.

370

And, I was there and I watched all those,

371

all the buses at the start

and all the riders and,

372

warming up and doing their thing

and watching the race

373

and the final,

and I thought, wow, this is beautiful.

374

This is this is what I had been doing for

for many, many years.

375

And I lost the

fun out of it or in it. But,

376

this is beautiful.

377

I mean, I need to do this again.

378

This is this is not over yet,

so the Amstel Gold race

379

is a very special,

very special thing for me.

380

And when when you went, to your trip

up, to Sweden,

381

did you, make all those decisions or.

382

the clearing your mind by yourself?

383

You took a friend

or a girlfriend or partner, or

384

you had a proper professional to talk to,

385

or you just used your own head?

386

I think over time,

387

during my time in Sweden,

but also my time just at home,

388

enjoying time at home with my dog and,

389

I think it was mostly me and just just me

390

thinking and dreaming about about,

the, about the Olympics again.

391

Yeah. Well, what what dog do you have,

392

a white shepherd.

393

Big white shepherd.

394

this, American, Canadian white shepherd.

395

yeah. So it's sort of the same.

Yeah, yeah.

396

Swiss

white shepherd or Canadian white shepherd.

397

Yeah, yeah. Charlize.

398

so if I was to take two months off

to figure some stuff out,

399

I think,

I think I would probably gain ten kilos.

400

But he, you know, you know,

401

but you, you were able to come back

from that pretty quickly, you know,

402

like you said, from from the couch

to the podium on the Olympics.

403

I, I've seen a little bit

on your social media,

404

and then our, buddy Karsten

Kroon says you do a lot of running,

405

and, was looking

at some of your running times.

406

Were you actually running

during that time,

407

or was it an absolute complete

and total physical reset?

408

Yeah. Completely physical reset.

409

Yeah, yeah.

410

But I think I was just

completely overtrained

411

when I, when I took this break.

412

So I think my body also what my body

needed was only, only time to heal.

413

You know, all the training was in there.

414

So I think it needed that time,

that period of two months

415

to, to either recover

from all the stress and,

416

the physical and mental stress

from, from the years before. So

417

although I didn't ride my bike,

I think my body

418

was still getting better over time.

419

But by doing nothing, you know?

420

So, but I definitely needed those, those

421

those months again, those three months

that I still had after my decision

422

to to come back to Tokyo,

I still needed those, those three months

423

to, to get back as some sort of,

competitive level.

424

And I wasn't at my best physical level

I was ever

425

in, in Tokyo,

but still good enough to win silver.

426

So quite, quite all right.

427

So now that that you're retired,

for good,

428

you still follow cycling,

you still watch all the races.

429

You're a commentator yourself, right?

430

With Dutch TV, correct?

431

Yeah, exactly. So.

432

So when I retired.

433

So Tokyo happened.

434

Then one year later, I retired.

435

I found out that

436

that I needed my freedom.

437

I was just looking for freedom.

438

I was looking to adventure.

439

And I couldn't find it in

professional cycling anymore.

440

It wasn't for me anymore.

441

And, I, I reached,

442

I got everything

out of out of the cycling.

443

What that I wanted,

I think out of my professional career.

444

I had great results

and I had a great time.

445

And for me, it was time to move on.

446

And, so then then I went to Costa Rica.

447

I went to the Himalayas, I went to,

I went to do all fun things.

448

And I took a, I took,

a big step back from cycling.

449

I didn't watch anything.

I didn't watch the news.

450

I didn't watch the results. Nothing.

451

And then I from from that period, I,

452

I sort of got stimulated again, like,

453

but I this, this bike thing,

I just love it,

454

you know, I, I hated it for a while,

but I love it again.

455

And I want to try if there's something,

456

something there for me still in this,

in this beautiful cycling world. And

457

I gave

458

I invited all my friends and relatives

459

in, in, in the cycling world.

460

And I was there with, I think, 150 people,

all from the cycling world.

461

And then I complete

and I found out, like, wow,

462

what,

what a cool bunch of of people, you know,

463

and then I then I thought, okay, this

this is still for me.

464

And I now I'm working as an ambassador

for Giant.

465

I work for the Dutch TV

NOS as an analyst and commentator.

466

And now I follow.

467

I follow it all together.

468

So, yeah, I love it.

469

Love it again.

470

That's that's awesome. That's awesome.

471

I think we all, regardless

of those mini breaks that we take,

472

we're always going to be attracted again

to to riding bikes

473

because I mean I think that's

just inherently inside of us.

474

But now that you're a commentator,

you know, you won Grand

475

Tours, Olympic

medals, World championships,

476

like you said, you were on the

the cutting edge of this sport.

477

What do you see

with this younger generation

478

that that you just appreciate the most?

479

Because let's face it,

the racing that we're seeing these days

480

is a totally different level

481

And, you know,

has has just gotten better and better.

482

But what are those things that just kind

of have you scratching your head?

483

Yeah.

484

They're flying nowadays.

485

with my level in 2017,

486

I would not have won the Giro

d’Italia nowadays.

487

So they

they made a big step, big step up again.

488

And I think it's due to

489

professionalism

and training and nutrition, for example,

490

especially nutrition,

I think they made a big step forward.

491

actually, the whole peloton.

492

But but the, the fun thing

is, is that even though

493

all those teams are getting more

and more professional

494

and all the riders have, access

to all this information

495

and all this data and stuff

like that, still, the, the racing

496

the last couple of years

has been more and more exciting, actually.

497

We've seen so many attacks

from from far away.

498

We've seen, bold moves.

499

We’ve seen everything actually.

500

And, yeah,

especially some of the guys like,

501

like Pogacar and Mathieu

Van Der Poel and, I mean, they're

502

it gets you

503

to the tip of your seat, you know,

how do you say this inEnglish?

504

yeah.

505

Yeah, it's just exciting to watch.

506

So, yeah, it's it's super professional,

but still,

507

really fun to watch last couple of years.

508

And it seems like that

at most of the races

509

or all the big races are won

by like three, maybe four teams.

510

And maybe six different riders. Yeah.

511

Why do you think is, is that

the same reasons more professional,

512

more professional or got bigger budgets

to buy better teammates to help them?

513

I think

514

I think if you

I couldn’t talk for, for all teams.

515

But if you if you for example zoom

in to to Visma-Lease

516

a bike the previous Jumbo-Visma.

517

I think they started with being very

professional on all aspects of the sport.

518

So, so like I said,

mental coaching, training, nutrition,

519

materials, everything.

520

They're, they're,

they're making big step forward.

521

And, that attracts also good riders

522

and good riders need money

and it takes the sponsors with them.

523

So, they started

524

with quite a small budget

like ten years ago,

525

but now you have one of the biggest

budgets, maybe even the biggest,

526

but the biggest budget. I think it's UAE.

527

but, in the, in the, in

professional cycling.

528

So, it's not only about money,

but it's, it's, it's, it has more to do

529

with, with the professionalism

that that these big teams.

530

yeah.

531

Show and, and it takes all the other

teams also with them.

532

I mean,

533

last year and two years ago

534

you saw that that Jumbo-Visma

or Visma-Lease-a-bike

535

they were actually

536

on top, by a big margin.

537

I'm not I'm not anymore, actually.

538

UAE is is

is is maybe even better this year.

539

than than they are.

540

so I think in in time

541

it will evolve to being to to more teams

being more competitive

542

hopefully. But,

543

what do you,

what do you guys actually think about,

544

like a budget cap or,

or something or like,

545

like in the NBA or, yeah.

546

I think it's difficult because now

some of the big teams have all the money

547

and they buy big riders and they have

all the money to spend on materials and,

548

and data science and everything up

to the wind tunnel testing the altitude

549

training camps to sent masseurs

and, team doctor to the altitude camps.

550

Yeah, yeah,

we we had that a few times to talk.

551

We had Kim Andersen the sport

director of Lidl-Trek before.

552

And, a lot of people,

we just have to find a fair

553

or clear way for some sort of salary cap

because just like whatever.

554

In soccer in Germany,

we got like 3 or 4 teams

555

with more money, they dominate everything

in a British soccer league.

556

And it's going that way

a little bit, right.

557

Because UAE good for them.

558

But, they seem to have an almost unlimited

budget, right?

559

I mean, my, my, my first team in 98,

I know it's a long time ago

560

I think we had like four, maybe

5 million budget for the entire team.

561

Yeah.

562

That is Jonas Vingegaard or Pogacar’s

salary.

563

Just one rider.

564

We had an entire team for that money,

you know.

565

So yeah, money can buy to a large extent.

566

Money can buy success.

567

So, yeah, I think that it would be good

568

to don't lose the so-called small teams.

569

I hate to say that

because they're not small,

570

they just have less of a budget,

they still work hard.

571

They're still a respectable

professional team.

572

So to don't drop them and the sponsors go,

why should I even give you 5

573

or 10 million if I only finish 15th

in the tour for that much money, you know?

574

So yeah, yeah,

I see, yeah, it's like that. Yeah.

575

We should consider that. Right. Bobby?

What?

576

What's your point on this?

577

Yeah.

578

you know, you mentioned it

with Kim Andersen when he came on here

579

I kind of agree with what he said

where there should be, you know,

580

you can have

whatever budget you want for the team, but

581

there should be

a cap on the rider salaries.

582

So he used an example of,

hey, if a guy gets 6 million, that's fine.

583

But then you just have less

for the rest of your riders, I think.

584

I think that's definitely something

that needs to be discussed.

585

because, yeah, it's it's kind of crazy

looking at the Arsenal of champion riders

586

that are kind of all stacked into one team

and it

587

it yeah, we, we just need to spread

that around a little bit.

588

And that's already happening.

589

You know Julian Alaphilippe and Mark

Hirschi are changing you know

590

from their teams to a smaller Swiss

team Tudor with Fabian Cancellara.

591

So maybe it will be,

adjusting itself a little bit.

592

I heard a great idea from, Marco Pinotti.

593

I was talking to him

in, in the tour de France, in, in Italy

594

this year, and he said, actually,

you have all these points in the world

595

tour points.

Every rider gets points for every race.

596

And you just need every, every race

and every team.

597

They need to have

this maximum points in their team.

598

So you go to the tour de France

with eight rider and you can only have

599

like maximum, let's say 100 points.

600

And if you take one rider who has,

60 points, you can only have 40 points

601

for the for the other seven, you know,

and then you divide,

602

you can, you can choose one

big leader, Pogacar, let's say.

603

But then you have seven,

604

seven, well,

605

worse, well, worse is a bad

606

name, but,

yeah, seven not so good riders.

607

I mean, now you have Pogacar,

you have Almeida, you have, yeah.

608

Yates. yeah.

609

Yeah, yeah, I use it.

610

And and he's almost unbeatable.

611

But if you have Pogacar

with, seven riders, seven riders

612

who are not world class,

then you get a fun race, you know,

613

but that could also be,

I thought it was a nice idea,

614

but to to to, like, take, take it,

take it a step further.

615

Imagine, Alpecin Deceuninck go.

616

okay, then I think we only send

617

Jasper Phillipsen and Mathieu Van der Poel

and nobody else.

618

So we

we save the points from the other riders

619

and just go with two riders and they’re

both going to win stages.

620

But it's not possible.

That's all possible.

621

But you can take six other riders who

almost didn't get any world tour points.

622

So you know that's possible. So,

623

good old Marco.

624

Not a bad idea. Idea.

625

you wrote a book with, Nando Boers?

626

Yeah. Nando Boers?

627

Yeah. What was that experience like?

628

Because, you know, Jens, you've written

a couple books, and I've talked to people

629

that have written books,

and it seems to be,

630

you could go down a rabbit hole

pretty, pretty easily.

631

So what was your experience like writing,

your book?

632

for me,

633

it was nothing to do about going down

a rabbit hole.

634

for me, it was, actually very

635

a very beautiful experience

to to be writing this book together with.

636

Nando actually.

637

We made, we made a trip to

638

we made three trips to, to places

that were important to my career.

639

So we went to Italy

because I won the Giro.

640

Of course, we went to Bergen in Norway,

where I became world champion,

641

and we went to Andorra,

642

where I won the mountain stage

643

So we visited those places

to bring back memories

644

and to talk along the way about my career

and stuff like that.

645

And, I, I couldn't have imagined

646

that it was this almost therapeutic.

647

trip that it, that it became.

648

I mean, it was very special

649

and, yeah, it was very special

and sometimes emotional to be it at the,

650

the places

that were so important to my career

651

because we went to these places

because they had nice

652

and beautiful memories for me.

653

But along the way, we came across,

654

the downhill

655

where I crashed in 2012 in the Vuelta

nobody knows about,

656

but I ripped open my belly,

657

crashing into the barriers,

in a downhill.

658

And, it was it was horrible.

659

And there was blood

everywhere, and I had I crashed down to,

660

down the mountain,

661

then climbed back up

and everything was red, you know,

662

it was just a horrible, horrible memory.

663

And while we were riding the route

664

of of me

665

at least we came by this place

that I crashed.

666

And completely unexpected,

I didn't expect.

667

I forgot about it, to be honest,

and I suddenly realised that.

668

And,

that there were quite a couple of these,

669

these moments during our trips.

670

like I said, beautiful,

671

but also very emotional.

672

and and for me, it was, yeah.

673

Yeah, it was, very special

674

to be to be writing this book together

with, with Nando.

675

And do you have any plans of it

coming out in English any time soon?

676

I do actually, but

677

we still need to find a publisher.

678

All right.

679

Well, it it's, it's it's out in Dutch

and it's coming out in, in German.

680

but, I hope it all will be published

681

in the in, in English too.

682

Okay.

683

That would be my next question as well.

684

And, so,

just if it comes out in English,

685

what could we expect,

like your entire career, your childhood,

686

not just the highlights or two years

of your career or what can we expect some

687

some some private stories about your what

whatever childhood or about your parents?

688

Well, also,

yes, it's going to be quite personal.

689

but I'm taking the reader

690

with me along the way,

throughout my career and of course,

691

the stories of me as a kid not cycling

and just doing other things.

692

And suddenly, by coincidence,

getting in, getting into cycling,

693

you know, those stories, of course they,

they, they're in the, in the book, but,

694

it's mostly about me reflecting in on the,

on my career, on the beautiful moments.

695

But like I said,

definitely on the emotional and hard

696

and difficult moments

that I had, especially,

697

me being this adventurous

698

boy coming into the sport

that wasn't really mine.

699

which I felt like a stranger sometimes.

700

but me finding my way into the sport,

getting better and getting more ambitious,

701

and then also experiencing that,

702

that suddenly

I found the thing that I loved,

703

I started to dislike

or even hate at one point,

704

the, the bike and the cycling world.

705

And why is that?

706

And why did I feel that way?

707

and,

708

how did I overcome it as well?

709

and how do I look back at it now?

710

and it yeah, we, we like I said, we,

we made all these trips

711

and we had a lot of,

a lot of talks about my career

712

and, yeah, I'm actually very happy

with how the book came out.

713

And it's not,

714

yeah, sometimes it's, it

715

it was difficult.

716

but, at the end,

717

I think it's a very honest book about,

718

about me, but also about.

719

But the cycling world in general. Yeah.

720

Well, I can't wait for that.

721

And, any of our viewers or listeners

that, know a publishing house,

722

let's make this happen for,

723

just a kind of random question because,

724

you know, like I said, I,

I never raced with you,

725

but I always had a lot of respect for you,

and it's growing

726

by the minute here

listening to you on this podcast.

727

But who is a rider that you respected

728

the most during your your racing days?

729

Oh good question.

730

Good question.

731

I know, I know an answer

who I respect a lot now, actually.

732

And that's, that's Mathieu van der Poel.

733

He's he's Dutch, so easy choice.

734

But no

no, no, no, but, Mathieu seems to be,

735

of seems to be finding the

736

ideal, the way between,

737

using all the data,

all the professionalism,

738

all all the science that has taken over

cycling.

739

he's using that to his advantage

740

and still being able to

741

to enjoy the fun of fun of it, you know,

742

to to go out and attack at a moment.

743

Nobody expects him to or to,

744

I mean, to to to complete rest

745

after the, after the classics to say,

okay, I put my phone away for two weeks,

746

I go, I go golfing now and, and it's,

747

I think it's beautiful to see.

748

And it's actually not only Mathieu

van der Poel there’s also Pogacar.

749

He he seems to be.

750

I mean, yeah, the sport is evolving

in such a professional way

751

that sometimes I think a lot there

of robots and, and, and then I look at it

752

Mathieu van der Poel and I look at Pogacar

and I think, it's, it's not like that.

753

It's it's still as beautiful

as it ever was. So.

754

Yeah, they have they're.

755

Yeah. I have a lot of respect for them.

756

When you

757

now just mentioned,

that they use, the power data to,

758

you know, get better, in the Vuelta,

759

after you won a stage

in quite impressive style,

760

you got some questions

and some negative comments and so on.

761

you published all your power data,

and it was almost, like,

762

unheard off until then.

763

You still okay with that decision?

764

And what made you do that?

765

And how was the feedback

you got after that?

766

Yeah.

767

well, there was a Dutch journalist

who had had some question

768

about like, okay, Tom, it's 2015.

769

you have never had any big results

770

in a grand tour, and suddenly

you're almost winning this grand tour

771

and you're in the red jersey

and winning multiple stages and and so on.

772

And I

and I mean, it was a genuine question.

773

I mean, we had, I had a bad,

I mean, cycling had a bad past

774

with all the doping stories and,

and I think it was a good question.

775

I mean, but at then

776

the team decided, okay, maybe.

777

Well, he asked,

778

to see my, my power

779

data and he wanted to justify if it was

780

it was correct or not.

781

Something.

782

And the team said, yeah, why not?

783

And I also said, why not?

784

I mean, I,

I don't think it's really proof of

785

I don't think it's it's really proof of me

786

not doping at the time.

787

but yeah, I shared it with him and

788

yeah, I had nothing

to, to, to be scared of.

789

I had nothing to to hide.

790

I still have nothing to hide.

791

So don't read the book

if you want the juicy doping story,

792

because there's nothing there.

793

but, yeah, it's, it's me

just being open.

794

If you could go back and redo

795

one day of your career,

you know, you won a lot of races.

796

You're

at the top of your game for a long time.

797

But what what one day would you go

back and change if you could?

798

I know that one.

799

there's there's

800

a nice list of riders who have worn

801

all the leaders

jerseys of Giro, Tour, Vuelta,

802

who have won a stage in line in Giro

803

Tour and Vuelta, and who won a time trial

in Giro, Tour and Vuelta.

804

And I'm missing only one.

805

And that's the yellow jersey.

806

So I won a stage,

807

in all three grand tours, I won a time

trial in all three grand tours.

808

And I've worn.

809

Worn all the leader's jerseys

except for one.

810

And it could have happened in 2015,

811

actually, in, in, in stage three,

if I remember correctly,

812

stage three to Huy in Wallonie

813

and I, there was a huge, huge crash

and it was

814

one of my biggest crashes of my career.

815

And I, I crashed

and I broke my shoulder and dislocated it.

816

but that was the one day

that that I could have worn the,

817

the yellow jersey and that's, that's the

that's the thing missing in my career.

818

So if I, if I could redo one day,

it would have been that day

819

and I would have, positioned myself

on the left side of the bunch

820

instead of the right side.

821

So, when we

822

talk about, I did one day

you would like to change.

823

Nowadays, when you go out or training.

824

Are you still feel

the need to prove yourself, to go hard,

825

to push yourself or to suffer

or to outperform your run from last week.

826

Because for me, as soon as I reach

a certain level of intensity,

827

my entire body screams at me,

are you fucking stupid?

828

Like we have done that for 33 years.

829

Leave me alone.

830

I don't want to do anymore.

831

So my body, my mind just shuts down.

832

Even on a highway bridge, my body

goes, no, no, no, I'm not.

833

I'm not up for that anymore.

834

How's that for you?

835

yeah.

836

Sometimes, I have it. Yeah.

837

So sometimes it can still,

I can still push my body.

838

Yeah, yeah.

Especially when I pin up a number.

839

And it's not going to be any cycling races

anymore, but, I had a run last year.

840

yeah, I also did

841

also this winter,

I did a few runs with a number on and,

842

then that I just,

I completely wrecked myself

843

to be the best that I can.

844

Yeah. Yeah.

845

so, sometimes,

but not in training anymore.

846

Not in training.

847

I sometimes like to push myself

on a climb or

848

with running or cycling, but,

I never go into this full red zone,

849

you know, as soon as it hurts, as soon as

as my lactate goes, about 5 millimoles

850

my body also says no,

but in races, smaller

851

races, of course, but small races,

I can still I can still push myself.

852

Yeah.

853

I mean, push

yourself is an understatement.

854

did a little research,

and you've done, 32 minute 10K.

855

And what, a 1:10 half marathon.

856

that's pretty, pretty fast.

857

Are you going to follow up on

have you done a full marathon yet?

858

I haven't no no no no I haven't.

859

but I want to do one, in the future.

860

Yeah, definitely.

861

And, like Jens said,

862

then then or like I told you,

863

I would like to, to go fast

if I, if, if I do it.

864

So I would like to prepare

as good as I can.

865

I mean, I'm not going to be professional

about it anymore.

866

but still if I, if I have this number

and I want to do

867

the best that I can and,

so I need some preparation time.

868

So what would your goal time

be for a marathon, then?

869

What? What bar are you setting?

870

I would like to ever be

871

within the 2:30 zone that would be nice.

872

Yeah, two and a half. Okay.

873

remind me again.

874

How old are you?

875

33. Wow.

876

That's impressive.

877

So, to help you out here,

I happen to know the people

878

from the Berlin marathon.

879

We do a bike event together

they do the marathon?

880

Berlin marathon and half marathon.

881

And also Velo city,

where I work together with them.

882

So if your timing is okay,

I think I might give you some help

883

to get into the marathon,

which is one of the faster.

884

Yeah, I know, I know next year. Yes. Yes.

885

Absolutely. Cool.

886

Yeah.

887

We keep in contact

and I'm going to get you in there.

888

Yeah. Very good, very good.

889

I be at the finish line for you

890

with a nice warm towel or a cold towel

depending on the weather.

891

That would be nice. That's the plan.

892

what do you know what?

893

The fastest marathon

for an ex-professional

894

cyclist is, wasn't it?

895

Olano? Abraham Olano?

896

with, like, 2:38 or something.

897

I think Jalabert was in the 40s.

898

Two 45:48 maybe.

899

Yeah, yeah.

900

And yeah, I think, I think, I think,

I think Olano was 2:38 something or so.

901

I don't remember exactly,

902

but I have done ten marathons

but never with the number on.

903

Yeah, but just me and myself just running.

904

So I was like, are you ok?

905

Are you alright?

906

Are you okay Jensie?

907

That that sounds a little weird.

908

By yourself?

909

What do you mean you just run out?

910

No number on your back.

911

Just, Yeah.

912

Hit it.

913

Oh, really?

914

Yeah.

915

What?

916

I, I prepared, what?

917

One day I had that idea

I would run in the tour de France.

918

I would run one marathon per week.

919

So one week way. Yeah.

920

So because the riders,

they suffer like mad.

921

So I can at least suffer a little bit

while I'm out enjoying my vino rosso.

922

And, my, my French food.

923

did you ever time them?

924

yeah. But you know,

925

I think three,

926

three hours, not two, 336

until four hours.

927

I was I'm like, slowly

just moving along, but never that fast.

928

My fastest ever was a half

in the city of Vancouver.

929

Do you have a beautiful peninsula there?

930

Stanley Park.

931

And there's a flat, nice,

perfect length, but

932

it was 1:28 for the half and I was all in.

933

I could never, ever go fast, and it's all.

934

I have the deepest respect for you.

935

Thank you.

936

Our producer actually did a little digging

and he said,

937

Daniel Atienza,

do you remember Daniel Atienza?

938

Scissors, scissors

We used to call him scissors Holy smoke.

939

Because I tell you in the Vuelta

any stage race I was in,

940

we called him scissors

because he would basically just sit up

941

because he, he was a small climber guy

and he would just cut the peloton in two.

942

So we called him scissors.

943

Okay. Yeah.

944

If you call him scissors

because he cut in every crosswind sections

945

and you should have seen

if you ever imagined the stress

946

going into the final of the tour,

you should seen

947

the crazy fights to be in front of him

when there's a crosswind coming.

948

Nobody wanted to sit behind him because

you know, you’re doomed, you’ve lost.

949

So he did it in 2:29 minutes.

950

That looks like the fastest.

951

So. Oh, it looks like a goal.

952

There you go. There you go. But he was.

953

We got ourselves a goal next year.

954

Berlin. All right. Cool.

955

Well, Tom, listen, we've had a great talk.

956

Thank you so much for coming on with us

today.

957

start that training for that.

958

That marathon.

959

I bet you, you know, Jens was saying that

he doesn't like hurting himself.

960

I call B.S. on that.

961

He'll probably not set a goal

962

for to be right there with you

as long as he can, but, Yeah.

963

Good luck with

with everything that you're doing.

964

So happy to see you happy.

965

you know, when you, when you did retire,

it was like,

966

whoa,

that's really early for a guy like Tom.

967

You look.

You look like you found your way.

968

And, just thanks for sharing your story

with us and our listeners today.

969

Yeah, thanks for having me again.

970

And, really enjoyed it.

971

And, yeah, we have you back next year

after the marathon.

972

Yeah, we have you back. Thankfully.

973

That would be nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

974

All the pressure again.

975

Oh, I'm feeling it already, you know.

976

No, no. Go easy.

977

No. And then you can come to my house

and sit next to me here.

978

We can do the podcast.

Both of us sitting. Yeah. yeah.

979

So that's.

980

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do it.

981

Hey, that’s everything for this week.

982

And now please remember to follow us

@OddTandem

983

on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook

and wherever you get your podcasts.

984

Huge thanks to Tom

for being our guest today.

985

Also remember, if you want to see

the video version of this podcast,

986

it's up on our YouTube channel right now

youtube.com/@OddTandem.

987

And if you want the full

uninterrupted version of this podcast

988

and your name in the titles,

just head to our Patreon

989

where you can sign up for $5 a month

and keep this podcast going.

990

That's patreon.com/OddTandem

thanks to our Patreon members!

991

Scott, Steven Kimbrough, Marie Teixeira,

Jeff Kralik,

992

Brian Colon, Chris Merritt,

Tim Farriss, Jim, David Swartwout,

993

Bill Babcock and Randy Corbett who’ve done

just that, who have just done that.

994

And remember, if you want your question

in our next mailbag episode,

995

make sure you keep sending us your

questions to OddTandem@ShockedGiraffe.com

996

or any of our odd tandem

social media channels.

997

And please keep sharing the podcast

and keep leaving your reviews

998

wherever you are listening.

999

It really helps us to build our audience.