The salient point of this podcast episode revolves around the revolutionary MICA Advanced fast Legionella detection system, which drastically reduces the time required for Legionella detection from weeks to a mere 24 to 48 hours. This innovation emerges from a longstanding frustration with existing testing methodologies that have remained stagnant since the 1980s, resulting in delays that jeopardize public health. Our esteemed guests, including the system’s creator Sam Dukan and experts from AimTech Laboratories, engage in a thorough discussion regarding the implications of rapid Legionella detection technology and its potential to transform industry practices. The conversation further explores the collaborative efforts behind this breakthrough and the strong emphasis on accuracy and reliability that underpins the system. As we cover the nuanced challenges and advancements in microbial detection, we point out the importance of timely results in safeguarding public health against Legionnaires' disease.

The podcast describes a transformative shift in Legionella detection, spearheaded by the innovative MICA Advanced System. The conversation unfolds with insights from key figures in the field, including Sam Dukan, the pioneer behind the MICA revolution. The discussion highlights the historical context of Legionella outbreaks, notably the Philadelphia incident in 1976, which catalyzed a tireless effort to develop efficient detection methods. For years, laboratories relied on antiquated protocols that yielded results after a protracted two-week wait, a timeframe deemed unacceptable in a world where rapid response is paramount. Sam elaborates on the scientific breakthroughs achieved through extensive research, resulting in a method capable of delivering accurate results within a mere 48 hours. This advancement not only mitigates the risks associated with delayed responses to outbreaks but also enhances the reliability and accuracy of the data collected. The podcast emphasizes the collaborative efforts of a multidisciplinary team dedicated to refining this technology, illustrating the value of teamwork in achieving such monumental progress in public health. As professionals reflect on the implications of these advancements, it becomes evident that the MICA system represents a pivotal leap toward safeguarding communities from the threats posed by Legionella.

Takeaways:

• The MICA Advanced System represents a significant advancement in Legionella detection, reducing turnaround time to 24 to 48 hours.
• Traditional methods of Legionella testing have remained largely unchanged since 1980, resulting in outdated and inefficient practices.
• The collaboration among researchers, laboratory technicians, and consultants has been instrumental in addressing the challenges posed by Legionella outbreaks.
• The accuracy and reliability of the MICA system surpass traditional methods, providing a crucial advantage for public health.
• The integration of artificial intelligence in the MICA system enhances the detection process, allowing for high-throughput analysis of samples.
• The ongoing evolution of MICA technology aims to expand its detection capabilities beyond Legionella, potentially addressing other pathogens in the future.

So how did you know David and yourself got together and where did you see that this was this potential to revolutionize Legionella detection?

David?

Well, you know, really comes out of frustration.

I've always said we're dealing with two week old data.

Literally, you know, places are shutting down or spending, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in filters and just trying to figure out how to exist until.

They get results back for us, for our laboratory.

Our mission is to accurate, fast and reliable results.

Really what they need to know is that you really don't have to change your procedures on how you're doing, you know, even how you're interpreting samples and how you're collecting the samples and how you're getting the samples to the lab.

None of that has to change.

Without my team, I will never be able to reach this level, you know, and my team is not only Jamidex, but it's also all our supporters around the world.

And David and Robert are part of the team.

So thank you.

FOREIGN.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Welcome back to another very special episode with HC3.

I'm joined here with my colleague, Dr. David Krauss, and we have got some wonderful guests that we're going to be bringing in.

We're going to be talking about the Mica revolution.

That's what I've kind of called it.

There's this revolution going on.

And in fact, part of the problem is detecting Legionella in water systems and also being proactive in a way that you respond quickly.

And part of the issue has been that testing has been laborious, it's been slow, we haven't been able to get rapid results, rapid detection of Legionella.

But now there is a new revolution, isn't that right, David?

We have a revolution at play.

And so we are bringing in the experts today.

David, let's welcome our guests.

First of all, let me bring on the founder of the Mica revolution, shall we say.

This is Sam Dukan.

Sam, welcome.

Glad to have you with us.

I'm looking forward, we're all looking forward to chatting to you.

And also our Next guest is Dr. Florence Wu from AimTech Laboratories.

She is with us today.

We're going to have a great conversation with her as well.

Florence welcome.

And last but not least, the man with the plan.

We're bringing him on.

Mr. Robert McNeely, who is here to talk to us about training and his French connection as well.

Ladies, I would say, gentlemen and lady, welcome.

David, it really is a revolution of sorts of that's been happening.

Why don't you take us through some of that history and what the problems have been before then we jump on and talk to Sam about this revolution.

Absolutely, absolutely.

We have a very esteemed group of researchers and laboratory technicians and consultants here.

So, you know, this has really been the triad of trying to fix, fix and figure out Legionnaires Disease.

Finding it in the people, in the, you know, hundreds of veterans, the American Legion attendees who got sick, that was the easy part.

Finding it in the environment, culturing it from environmental samples actually took many years afterwards.

And we're still using what are fundamentally the same spread plate protocols and multiple plates in almost two week turnaround results to get environmental samples analyzed.

And so, you know, that has really stymied efforts to effectively respond to outbreaks and also to respond to cases or, you know, issues that arise.

You're always dealing with data that's almost two weeks old and the world goes on.

And that is a massive leap.

And actually, I think you're right, David, is that it has been stymied, it's been slow.

But we have a solution now which we launched here in the US but has been going internationally for a while, called the MICA Advanced System, which detects Legionella in 48 hours maximum.

So 24 to 48 hours.

And we have the esteemed professional with us today who invented this, who actually made this breakthrough.

Sam, if I can ask you just to go through and tell us a little bit about how did you reach the point of I can actually speed this process up what happened?

What were you doing at the time?

Describe to us the whole process.

Okay, so it's a long story.

So I will not.

I mean, even in one hour, I will not be able to explain you everything.

But just to make it very simple, by training, I'm a microbiologist, and I was head of an academic research group, so.

And I was working on aging in microbes.

So you see, it's very, very far from Legionella.

And to work on.

I mean, on this topic, I have asked one of my friend, but he's a chemist, to develop a probe that was able to label specifically the living microbes.

And we start with E. Coli.

We were not starting with Legionella pneumophila.

And we discovered a new way to label specifically microbes.

And we saw that it was possible to do exactly the same with Legionella pneumophila with a molecule that will be metabolized specifically by Lesionella pneumophila and that will recover the surface of the cell with some anchor and by click chemistry.

After we were able to label them.

From this ID, we developed during 10 years a solution.

And the solution is the possibility to detect Lesionella pneumophila at a stage of microcolony.

And doing.

I mean, combining this probe that labels specifically Lesionella penemophila and this equipment that is able to read, you know, the signal of fluorescence generated by the microcolony, we are able to count them.

I make it very short, you know, but it's a long story.

And it's not only me, you know, it's a team of 30 people, you.

Know, so brilliant people, a bunch of brilliant people.

They put together, which Jacqueline and I talked about yesterday, that.

Yeah, we did.

Just brilliant, brilliant people.

Actually, Sam, he was.

He was singing your praises yesterday when we were chatting, and I've never seen Mr. McNeely been so excited about the prospect.

I mean, we were lucky because he was.

He was in our facility, you know, a few weeks ago, and he saw everything, you know, from the inside, you know, so it's.

Why, maybe.

Yes.

Yeah.

Thank you.

It was like Charlie in the chocolate factory when it was.

I was.

I was trying not to get caught up in the chocolate, you know.

You know, so what is fascinating is that you have managed to identify this and really had a breakthrough, because obviously, when you test things with ISO, it's not as accurate.

Something we talked about as well, Robert and I, yesterday, and this really has had a breakthrough.

So how did David and yourself got together and where did you see that this potential to revolutionize Legionella detection?

David?

Well, you know, really comes out of frustration.

I, I've always said we're dealing with two week old data.

Literally, you know, the places are shutting down or spending, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in filters and just trying to figure out how to exist until they get results back.

And when, when we finally met, met with Sam and were able to review the, you know, the published studies, the data, the equipment, you know, I'm a pretty critical person on this kind of material and throw a lot of really hard questions that I think I've seen a lot of things come and go like my hair.

But, you know, it's.

They have done their homework and, you know, every question I threw at them, you know, how have you validated what is the, the positive predictive value, negative predictive value?

How has this been used up against existing standard methods?

And what are the, you know, the potential interferences and, you know, ways it can go wrong?

And they have been as curious, if not more so, and explored those things up front.

And so I felt very comfortable and confident and said, let's give this a try.

Let's see how it's working.

And you know, from that point, I said, we have to get this into the hands of a trusted, qualified, competent, great laboratory.

And I've known Dr. Florence Wu for, I'll say, a few years, but I.

Was gonna say what a perfect, what a perfect sedgeway, David, to get this into, to, to bring in Florence.

Florence and I have relied upon her laboratory and their research capabilities and, and you know, willingness to do the hard work.

And, you know, I brought it forward and I think they, you know, were willing to be that first adopter at early adopter and I think give us a very frank assessment of what they were seeing.

Now, Florence, let me ask you because now that you've come into this narrative, into this story now where David has connected with you and he said, hey, look, Florence, I have an idea.

I want to bring something to you for you to test.

Did you have an early skepticism to this?

How did you embrace this in your laboratory?

Well, first of all, I think David lose more than his hair.

He loses memory too.

I have known him over almost 20 years.

So the respect and the trust is mutual.

So when David brought this idea to me, I heard of this Method before.

But for us, for our laboratory, our mission is to provide accurate, fast and reliable results.

Since we don't created our own method.

So we have to really straight on selecting appropriate method.

So with David, I trust David when he brought this to my attention, we really look and their study.

So the matter itself is AOC validated and certified.

But we didn't take that as face value.

We also did verification study ourselves and the results are proven.

So that's the first step for us.

And the first part is really in line with what we try to do for over 10 years.

We are accredited and PT certified lab by CDC to do linear testing using the ISO method.

And our ISOP for ISO method is like over 20 pages and will need training and repeated training for the technician to really master methods.

So this and on top of that is the turnaround time.

Most of the customer wants really fast turnaround and sometimes they want the result even before they send samples.

Usual.

I'm not surprised with that.

Absolutely.

We totally understand.

Right.

When you're in the field you want the results.

Yeah.

So the ISO method is typically seven to ten days.

We can check this sample by day four if there's growth.

If it's negative, we have to incubate the longer time.

And so this faster turnaround time is really beneficial to our customer, but also have a benefit to the lab.

Which means that shorter incubation time will allow us to scale without keep adding incubators.

Right.

Two days, one day, the incubation is done instead of waiting for a whole week.

So and then of course the reliability.

So reliability for us is both the service and also the result.

The result is reliable, accurate and reliable in the ISO method.

Even though it's a standard method, require a lot of training.

But sometimes look in the colony you're just not sure.

Like the bacteria, we all know the physiology, the colony, the agar and whether they're injured or not.

So there is always uncertainty in there when we try to identify Lindsay animal Fola.

So in our lab we kind of, you know, to be sure we actually sometimes need to pick a colony to do DNA sequencing.

But this part is usually not requested by customer so we cannot charge them.

So we use our own cost to make sure we generate accurate data.

With mica, we don't need to do the confirmation and use AI machine learning assisted automatic reading.

So take away the subjectivity of result reading.

I think that's, to me that's a really a good, an advantage for choosing this analytical method.

I think that's fascinating.

I Want to jump back into Sam, because as we've heard, Florence has maintained that accuracy accurate is of fundamental importance.

And when myself and David and Robert have been chatting, the accuracy of this is like it's out there, it's sky high, it's gold standard.

So let's talk a little bit about that accuracy, Sam, and why is it, why are you so confident?

I mean we were talking last night when Robert and I were chatting a 95, 97, 98% accuracy.

That is unheard of.

How did you get it that specific?

Oh, it's because we have worked several years on the topic.

So after that, you know, when you train a baby for all these sample, it start to become a genius.

So it's why we have a very good accuracy, you know, and where I'm very proud.

You know, it's when you have first party laboratory that have test, you know, our solution, they all conclude the same.

We are even more accurate than the isomethod.

And this especially for the cooling tower where you have a lot of interfering flora with our system we are able to count Legionella pneumophila where the standard method is not able to count because you have a lot of different microbes that cover the plate.

You know, so this is also a big advantage of our solution.

And we have been evaluated by the Chinese CDC and the European Water Test Network association and by the ayc and the three organisms conclude the same for cooling tower even more accurate.

Yeah.

Do you know, it's interesting Sam, because something that Robert and I was talking about and he maintained this last night is he'd said and if anybody's listened to this, obviously you're going to see this, listen to this and it will be a few days past or whatever, but we were talking about it.

Now you challenged Rob, let's talk about this because you challenged consultants out there that were involved in testing to actually test mica in different laboratories and also ISO.

Let's talk about that.

Oh yes, yes.

It was a very important point for us.

We send the same sample to 10 different laboratory that are accredited, you know, So I mean, very well known laboratory.

And we send with 1 million legionella per liter.

So it's a huge number, you know, and we request the value, you know, and we still obtain result zero.

No, where you have 1 million legionella pneumophila per liter.

So the variability was around two order of magnitude.

When we do exact, when we done exactly the same with mica with the same sample, the variability was around 20%.

So you see the difference two order of magnitude and 20%.

And even some lab obtained zero.

You know, we called the lab, you know, we were so shocked, you know that lab detect.

No, when you have 1 million and we call them, we say are you sure?

Yes, they say yes, yes.

Knowledge and the lab.

That's absolutely crazy because that's something Robert and I was talking about last night, wasn't it Rob?

I mean you had, you had you, you even set down that, that, that challenge to, to consultants to go out and do that.

Yeah, that's, that's, you know, you know, I would say send it, send it around.

And this is, and this is the thing that I find about the MICA is that you're going to get consistent results unlike with ISO.

Yeah, you're going to get consistent results with, with the mica.

And that's, that's where I think the difference maker is with the MICA compared to ISO is that from lead to lab, you could differ drastically with the ISO.

And where with mica, no matter what machine you use, you're going to get within, you know, a certain variability that would be naturally and that would be expected in results, you will get the same, same number.

And so that's where, and that's where it didn't matter how well that person was trained as long as they did this scope, which you know, Forest could probably speak about, is that it's not, when it comes to a lab, it's not really intensive training and knowledge that you must have to use mica.

Well, I mean that's it.

And that's another nice surgery because Robert, you went down to Florence's lab when they were putting the test system.

All of us.

Yeah.

All you did.

Yeah.

And so were you shocked Florence, when this came in and you started to do the testing, that how easy it was to integrate this into your operation.

We appreciate it.

I certainly appreciate that.

I wouldn't say shock.

It takes a lot to shock me, But I think we appreciate the method is pretty straightforward and of course it definitely needs training.

Right.

All the reagents we need to understand how it Works and technician, learn all the principle behind it and understand where need to take a precaution.

But in general, this method is easy to train, easy to learn.

And again, the confidence in carrying out the procedures and in reading the result, I think that means a lot to us.

I think there's a high level of confidence there.

I think that makes a difference to all of you guys involved in this, is that maybe before there'd be less confidence in some of the data.

There's been times where the data is questionable and you then have to continue testing, testing.

But David, how has this changed the industry in terms of trust and confidence in moving forward?

Well, there's two big aspects here is let's focus on legionella pneumophila.

There's 62 different species of Legionella that are accounted for at this point, many serotypes.

And while, you know, it's, it's been a conservative and frankly, I think probably a gut feeling from public health agencies to say you need to track and trace and respond to all of these species.

Legionella pneumophila has been the cause of 99.9%, all but one of the nearly thousand Legionnaires disease outbreaks in the country.

So why are we responding to spending time and resources in dealing with species that in theory can cause disease, but haven't in practice posed a public health risk?

So that's been one of the barriers, I think, and people are recognizing that, that that gut feeling is not based in evidence, it's not based in science, it's not based in study or research.

The other one is even if there is a diminution in what you can see, the speed with which you can get final reliable results outweighs any, any downside.

You're able to get results that you can make decisions in and actions in near real time about what we see for any type of chemical test.

So I think as people see that and see that they're getting it at comparable cost to existing methods to which they're waiting for weeks.

Yeah, that's going to be a huge driver as well.

I think it's also a case, David, of you'll be able to deploy it operationally very quickly to probably expedite remediation process during an outbreak.

Absolutely.

Robert did the math on this.

You could with Mica, if you took your samples on the same day that you took your first samples using the ISO method, you could literally take your samples, get your results, do your remediation, take your post remediation samples and know whether that worked.

Or not before you'd ever get your final results using the existing ISO method.

So that's a huge benefit and that literally will save lives.

When we extend an outbreak out 30, 90, 120 days, more people are getting sick and 1 out of 10 of those in a community wide outbreak are likely to perish.

You know, it's a bold statement, guys.

It's a really bold statement to say that this is a lifesaver.

But Sam, how do you feel when you.

I mean, I know you're proud of your baby and rightfully so.

Well, what you've created is historical in actual fact.

But did you feel that, you know, this is a lifesaver.

This is potentially going to save multitudes of lives all over the world.

It's what we believe.

And, you know, we push the solution all around the world with the same information and the same explanation.

But where I'm very impressed is that in the US we feel that people are really concerned.

You know, by Legionella in some other country, we explain that, that look with our solution, two days, it will save life.

And lab say, who cares?

I'm following the rule.

It's enough.

Wow.

Yeah, it's very stressful here.

We really do recognize that following a rule, meeting compliance with a standard or a rule or a requirement, doesn't necessarily manage risk.

Yes, we have to be more aggressive than that in order to manage that risk.

And it's risk of lives, it's risk of welfare and hospitalization, but it's also a business risk.

I can go down a laundry list of hotels that have closed, become bankrupt, never reopened because of Legionnaires disease outbreaks.

And one of those was the Bellevue Stratford.

It closed literally after that.

That's right.

Something.

It's, it's.

I think it's also important to know that not only dangerous to their business, but even in terms of the investment in their workforce, because when the workforce get ill, they're off.

There's increasing costs, there's increasing tax on the organization.

And I don't mean tax as in federal tax, but taxing the system, taxing their whole business.

How important, David and Rob, anyone you chime in with this, is this in the United States for businesses such as in the leisure industry, in the healthcare industry?

Immeasurable, I would say.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I think one of the things that people need to think about is early detection allows you to respond faster and to take measures to remove that contaminant.

Remove that biological agent before it shuts you down, before it results in, you know, illnesses or disease lawsuits or just as bad the you know, 6 o' clock evening news on your front doorstep.

I mean that is a bad Friday afternoon.

And you know, people, you know, organizations will, as I, you know, people have often asked me when they, they're the center of an outbreak investigation, this, how much is this going to cost me?

And I'll say I've never seen, you know, a large facility get their way out for less than a quarter million dollars when it comes to remediation, testing, litigation, all of those things, they add up quickly.

And, and, and if you have to shut things down or bring in bottled water and filters and everything in between and of course the loss of confidence of your residents, your guests, your patients, your tenants, all of those have a, have a real substantive cost.

You know, something I was thinking about after Robert and I had a good conversation and we never talked about this Robert, but and David will understand this and anybody Florence here from the States is we have a lot of natural disasters.

Obviously we've had hurricane Helene, we've had Hurricane Milton, we've had natural disasters.

And I see a potential usage in disaster response recovery where because remember just last year when we had Helene.

The amount of, the amount of water, the amount of problem of pathogens that were found in the water after this.

And I don't think this is something that has even been looked at properly in terms of and maybe this is another thing that Micah can be looking toward is disaster response.

Am I right or am I wrong?

Well, it's going to be more in that, that secondary phase.

So as people are moving back into the properties and beginning to use the structure again and think it's safe to use the showers and the water systems.

But nobody told them that they need to hyper chlorine their buildings water systems because it's been sitting stagnant for three weeks.

Yeah.

And you know, the chlorine coming in is much less now than it used to be.

That level of understanding really hasn't been a subject of awareness.

But we do see a correlation between disasters, storms and illness in the, in the months after.

I think.

Absolutely right.

Definitely the secondary and even an ongoing phase of testing that I would certainly like to see.

And how important.

So Robert, down to your side of things.

I mean when people are interested and they want to get this installed or you're going to be dealing with professionals in the field.

Luckily you went over and not on a holiday, but you went over on A work trip to France.

And you were absolutely excited.

You were, you loved it over there because you learned so much.

Let's talk about what the professionals have to go through to get this implemented, from conception to installation to operation.

Well, I mean, Florence could probably attest to this too.

I mean, it's not a huge process.

And you know, and, and, and she's, she's, and she, and this is the thing.

Within a month, she's where she's already doing analysis, she's already doing the process.

So it's not a huge process.

It's just, you know, you install the machine, you do the training, you do your validation, and then if you accept it and you know, and you think it's, it works, what you're going to.

And then you do the validation, the internal validation that also that Dymadex has required.

And that's the great thing about this, and this is for everybody to know, I mean, Florence's crew had to go through this, is that Sam is going to supply you with samples that you're going to have to use the micro machine to determine those concentrations and you're going to have to be within a certain percentage of that number to be deemed to be able to use a machine.

And I don't know any other method, because even if you're elite, it doesn't matter whether you get the good number or not.

You just, hey, can you detect it?

No.

They want to do more than detective.

They want to make sure that you actually can get the number that is actually an accurate number.

And so Florence has gone through that and they have been able to do that and it's shown so and so that they've completed that process.

And after that, then you're free to use the machine and, and to market it and, and supply people with the best type of analysis you can get out today.

And that's what Florence is.

Her and her crew have definitely, and.

They really knocked it out of the park.

Being able to adopt it and become comfortable with it and develop those internal SOPs.

And one of those SOPs that we haven't seen here yet, but I know Sam has seen in other countries, is the need to take those isolates that they grow and actually take it on for serotyping or whole genome sequencing if and when there's an outbreak.

That's still possible and still do that with samples.

Exactly.

It doesn't kill or injure the samples or the bacteria.

They can be brought on for whole genome sequencing and fingerprinting and compared to clinical isolates which a lot of, you know, the existing PCR methodologies simply, you aren't able to do that with.

So, you know, it really fits.

Fills a void and a gap that we've had in the United States for some time.

I find it also fascinating, guys, that you can see images.

You can actually see a rendition, the images of the Legionella, which is unheard of.

I'm not a molecular scientist or anything like that, but for me on the sidelines to look at it and say, wow, I haven't seen any other report that has that.

I think that's a unique.

A very unique selling point or benefit is to be actually to see an image representation of what you have.

Yeah, yes.

Yes.

Because we are microbial.

We want to see.

You want everybody to see what you see?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, you know, what does this help in terms of, you know, this might be for you, David, but seeing the imagery.

Would this help in terms of litigation on either, you know, defense or prosecution?

When you go in to deal with these cases, having the imagery of a potential colony that's colonized your images, there.

Is there a benefit there?

There's.

It certainly doesn't hurt.

So, you know, human beings in general, we.

We trust what we can see.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yes.

Up until now, it has.

Your reports come back with a name written in Latin and a concentration, and that's all the information you get.

And, you know, people can't appreciate what that is.

And I've testified in many courts and trials on.

On, you know, everything from bacteria to mold to chemical exposures.

And I can tell you that the engagement and the believability that I see in the jurors and the judges.

Right.

When we have an image that depicts the hazard, the sample, the measurements.

Yes.

Rather than just somebody telling you a story, you're seeing that story.

And, you know, I think there.

I think Diamond X and Sam were brilliant in integrating that into the generated reports, that each sample comes with a image of what it detected and it's enumerated in that fashion.

Absolutely.

And to see examples of that on Florence's website, you can actually see examples of those images as well, which is fascinating.

And I kind of want to jump into another subject.

I know we're talking about rapid Legionella detection and, you know, getting to the test and.

But something that I'm fascinated with as well is that mica does not just detect Legionella.

I mean, essentially, it also detects other pathogens, Pseudomonas, and maybe potentially in the future, I don't know, something that Robert And I was kind of spitballing last night, maybe ntm.

So we don't know.

Maybe that's something for the future.

Sam, what do you think?

Challenge.

I gotta poke him, you know, I gotta.

It was confidential, you know, so.

Okay, so I mean, right now we have indeed several of the micrological parameter in the equipment.

So we are able to enumerate not only legend Ella pneumophila with the same approach, but we are able to enumerate Esheri charcoti just in six hours instead of 24 hours.

That's crazy.

Very fast.

Six hours, same day, you know, result.

We will have total coliform very soon.

You know, by end of the year or beginning of next year, we will have total coliform in a very short period of time.

Next year we will have pseudomonasinosa indeed.

And we receive a lot of feedback on non tuberculosis mycobacterium.

So we are starting to think of developing a solution.

I mean, when I say that we have already proof of concept, because we have proof of concept for many, many different microbes, but we need to know if there are a need, you know, because we have so many id, you know, because we are scientists first, so we, we need to, to see if there are really a need.

So apparently there are a need for non tuberculosis mycobacterium.

So we are thinking to develop a solution for that based on the proof of concept that we have.

Yes.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening to this on our podcast and all the podcast networks, you're not going to see Rob McNeely's face just lit up because we were talking about this last night and he was like, yeah, I can see Sam, you know, going for this and looking at NTMs in the future.

This is, you know, a potential new field.

And it's great, Sam, that you brought that up, because then people who want to, you know, bring this system in to their labs or into their operation.

I hate to use this little term, but it's going to grow with you, right?

Obviously, like the baby keeps on growing.

It's going to.

Yeah, it's going to keep on growing.

How does that.

How do you feel about that, Florence, in your lab, you know, with the potential that, you know, you can grow and this can move into new, new detection.

We're excited.

We're excited to grow with the technology.

So it makes us to be more effective, more efficient, to reach out to a broader customer base.

Any technology advancement, you know, we'll be able to use that.

Whatever Sam can provide, we'll be able to use.

We see ourselves as the bridge between the technology and our customer and the data.

So any technology can enable us to provide again accurate, fast and reliable results.

It gave us opportunity to grow, give us opportunity to contribute more to the society.

I love how we talk about growing into the future because I feel from what I've learned about Sam and the organization, from the nuts to the bolts, to everybody that's involved that Rob and I were talking about.

Sam, you're a very futuristic company.

You've already harnessed the power of AI.

Are you going to continue to keep harnessing that as you move into new fields?

Are you forward thinking all the time trying to make it better with AI?

So we are thinking for the new solution to develop new approach of machine learning.

So we cannot change the machine learning that is inside.

And what is very important, because everybody, you know, since few years are talking about machine learning, machine learning, artificial intelligence.

What is very important to understand is that the machine learning is done in our laboratory, not in the equipment.

In the equipment.

There are no evolution of the equipment.

It's fixed.

So there are no more machine learning inside the machine that Florence out of all our customers have.

So it will not evolve during time.

So the baby is frozen and it will not change.

Yeah, and we certainly don't need any.

And we don't need any equipment in the AI.

Hallucinations.

Exactly.

Reading these.

So I was going to say you still need.

Yeah, you still need human intelligence involved in this.

You still need the human ability to discern and to look at that data and to develop it.

And at the end of the day, even though that you have AI in a certain way, Sam, that you're utilizing it, isn't it really the human input that's putting all that data in and training the AI?

So at the end of the day is actually being human developed.

Exactly.

Because we have some experts in the lab, you know, that zoom to all the image and check first by eye and explain to the machine here is a positive.

So we thought the human, the machine will never be able to do it.

So the machine need to be trained by the human first in order to be able to detect after so it's totally different, you know, and one point that I've not been pushed out is with one equipment you could perform until 500 analysis per eight hours.

So it's a really high throughput system.

So for laboratory, you know, that want to grow with us and increase the business, you know, they will be able to receive a lot of sample with no need of having many equipment.

You know, just one equipment would be enough for almost all the laboratory.

And it's the same piece of equipment they're using for Legionella that's also reading samples that would be analyzed for pseudomonas or E. Coli.

And so you really do have a kind of, I'll say a French army knife instead of a Swiss army knife, but you have a multi tool that can do many jobs very well.

That actually is a fantastic analogy, David, to say that a French army knife, that was very, very good of you to move to that one.

But it's true, it is like your Leatherman, it has so many tools that it can utilize and again will continue to grow.

Robert, what do you feel that I would say professionals out there need to know about this because we're talking about the labs and how important it is.

But what about the consultants?

And we've got a great conversation coming up with some consultants as well.

But what did they need to know?

Rob?

Really what they need to know is that you really don't have to change your procedures on how you're doing.

You know, even how you're interpreting samples and how you're collecting the samples and how you're getting the samples to the lab.

None of that has to change.

You can still continue to do that.

It's just you're going to get your results significantly faster and you can really count on those results.

That's what they need to know, is that I know from lab to lab that they're different.

Even within the same lab.

It could be just who's analyzing it could could change on, on the results.

I guarantee you send the samples to, to Florence at AimTech, you're going to get an accurate result, period.

And that's what they need to know, is that you can be confident that this machine is and, and the process, the method, the total method, the solution, as Sam likes to call it, will be correct, accurate and precise.

Yeah, and not to speak ill against the existing method, but the existing ISO method and the Elite certification is really built upon a fairly weak expectation of reliability.

And, you know, I'd love us for, for, for us to leave a, a link to that in the.

Yeah, we can do that.

Yeah, in the, in the box here.

But, you know, when you read that and you realize how imprecise and the, you know, I think it was, they showed that really the existing methods that were being used by ELITE certified labs consistently underestimated the actual concentrations of Legionella in those samples by 1.25 logs.

It was not just error, it was biased.

It was biased low over an order of magnitude.

And then the inability, while they have detection limits that are 10 CFU or, you know, 1 or less than 1 CFU per mil when, you know, 90% couldn't detect it, when it was less than 10% or 10 CFU per mil.

That really is telling.

Yet that is the standard that we're comparing it to.

Yeah, so this is just head and shoulders in its repeatability and reliability and I think will allow us to have greater confidence in the results and protect public health.

David, let me ask you, do you.

Do you feel the.

And it's something Rob and I had just skipped over last night as well, that, that there'd be some Kindle.

Not.

Maybe not legislation is perhaps the wrong word to use, but some kind of derivative.

You have to use this system, insurance companies or the make it that in order because it's so accurate, because it is a breakthrough, that it will become standard, that MIC advance becomes the standard in the industry.

You have to use that.

And maybe insurance companies will see that.

Yeah, I doubt we're going to see legislation that could happen.

But often what happens in these cases is you get performance criteria and the market drives you to using the most accurate, reliable, precise, and, you know, and timely results.

So often what will happen is they'll say, you know, these are the performance criteria you have to meet or your laboratory needs to meet and, you know, faster, better, and at the same cost or more reliable, those kind of things.

I have every bit of confidence that, you know, that's.

That that would probably be the most likely route in which it goes.

But we do have legislation.

We do have legislation in New York City, New York State, and implementing currently in New Jersey.

So, you know, that's.

That's becoming more common and more frequent.

Hopefully they.

They are picking and going to rely upon reliable measurement methods.

And I think since.

Since we've launched it in the US and made a big issue about it, there has been the jungle drums have been beaten.

We have been hearing them.

You have been in conversations.

And it seems to be that there is less pushback and more curiosity about this revolution.

If you like this fast Legionella detection, the ability and the potential it has to revolutionize the industry.

Absolutely.

People are very curious and want to move forward with this.

Having conversations every day with private end users, whether they're water treatment companies, consultants, public health officials, state labs.

So, yeah, I mean, we're moving forward with purpose.

Let me ask this.

I know the answer to this question, but I've got to ask it because people will say that we don't want to.

As you mentioned, bias.

Bias is the bane of scientific inquiry.

And so is anybody.

Is there any.

Florence, Sam, is there any downside to this at all?

For us, the downside is we probably have to maintain a good relationship with our supplier.

Good answer, Florence.

Good answer.

I like it.

Chocolate chip cookies.

Oh, dear.

That's good.

That's good.

So the upside, I think the upside with downside a lot we talk about, you know, accuracy in analytical service.

The accuracy is actually directly related to less handling.

Like in isometer, there's a lot of handling.

There's a mammal filtration and there's, you know, suspend the filter, recovered bacteria from the filter itself.

The filter recovery itself is a science.

Depends on what the filter use, how, how long you vortex it.

So the less handling, less step in analytical analysis can result less error.

So that's where I think the bias come from.

It's from the method itself, not from the training.

So the method itself gave lab the confidence that our data is less impacted by human error.

Yeah, I think that's very important, actually.

Yeah, exactly.

Couldn't say it any better.

It's less human error because at the basis of comes down to human error most times.

And they gave us the, you know, as a lab, one of my job is educate our customer education, meaning I will give them a choice of method and explain the advantage.

Disadvantage is method.

So in the past we have this ISO and then we have qpcr.

So my explanation to them, if you want a viable result, then you have to wait seven days or 10 days.

If you want a fast result, then you don't necessarily get viable count with a qpcr.

So either way is not ideal.

So in comparison, mica is ideal in terms of both fast and viable results.

It must be great for you to hear this, Sam.

I can see you smiling.

I know.

Ladies and gentlemen, I keep saying ladies, but ladies and I want to thank you all for joining us this afternoon and hopefully we'll have you back.

And anybody who's got any questions, we'll send them in to us.

If you have got any questions, if you're listening out there, you're watching this, and you've got any questions for Rob or David or Florence at AimTech, then please send them into us.

It's hc3fl.com.

Sam, you have absolutely revolutionized this industry.

And from someone like me, who's a beginner, you know, I'm not a microbiologist in any way, but I find this fascinating because I'm curious.

And since working with David and Rob, I'm even terrified.

I look at my shower heads and God knows what else and, you know, I find myself, you know, negating, going away from fountains and hoses and God knows they've terrified the living daylights out of me of it.

And as a Scotsman, I've learned to say Legionella pneumophila instead of Legionella pneumophilia, which is.

Which is what I would say in Scottish.

Guys, thank you so much.

Florence, fantastic.

Thank you for coming on and sharing your experience with this.

I wish you all the very best with it.

And Sam, we're going to have you back on again.

Let's have final thoughts.

Sam, give us your final thought, then we'll move around the room and we'll finish off there.

So what I will say is that it's not me, you know, it's the team.

It's, you know, without my team, I will never be able to reach this level, you know, and my team is not only Jamidex, but it's also all our supporters around the world.

And David and Robert are part of the team.

So thank you.

Wow, that's fantastic.

Florence, over to you.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you for this opportunity and thank you for bringing the technology to us so we can do our job better and meet the clients.

Needs better.

Yes.

And if anybody's listening out there and you need some Legionella testing done fast, fast detection, then get in touch with AimTech.

We'll have a link below this conversation to AimTech and everything else as well.

David, final thoughts from you.

Well, I'm just glad to be a part of this team here and be able to bring forward what I see as just a fantastic and revolutionary approach to a growing problem that we really do need to step up and make some changes so that we can stop the number of cases, outbreaks and deaths that happen from this every year.

So, again, thank you for everyone being part of this and I Look forward to the years ahead.

Fantastic.

Robert, final, final words, my friend.

What have you got to say?

Well, then they pretty much covered everything.

But I would have to say, when it comes to diamond decks, I think Sam is correct.

He's the pinnacle of the brilliance there.

But, man, did he surround what his brilliance was, was surround himself with absolutely brilliant people.

I met all of them, and they are all just amazingly brilliant and just.

And, And.

And passionate about what they're doing.

And, and that's why, you know, when me and David were thinking about, well, what, What.

What lab could we really bring this to?

And we were thinking, okay, who do we think is the pinnacle of labs and expertise on being able to really evaluate something?

Yeah, yeah.

Florence W. I mean, that was.

That was it.

And that's why we went to her.

And.

And we were so happy that she accepted because we were kind of, well, let's see, you know, and thank goodness that, you know, she trust.

Trust David, because I don't think anybody else could have got her to do it other than David.

And so.

And I think.

I think with that, I.

She's seeing what this is really going to do, and I think she's, you know, people are going to use this and they're going to see the real benefit of it.

It's going to take a little bit of time just because, you know, people a little apprehensive about something that's this revolutionary, this.

This amazing.

Because, you know, everybody's going to be like, what's wrong with it?

Come on, there's got to be something wrong with it.

This.

I know, I remember.

You know, it's got to be a skeptical side.

Yeah.

So then.

And good luck.

You know, I think Sam's done a real good job of that, is saying, prove me wrong.

Prove me wrong.

And nobody's been able to.

And I think with the accuracy and the quality of the system, you know, there's.

I know it's maybe Florence to want to hear this, but other labs have got to get on board as well.

And so, you know, I think Florence is leading the way in that side of things, but, you know, it's.

There's other labs that are going to be left behind.

And I'm so glad that Florence has joined the team and has got this up and running.

So, guys, thank you for being with me again.

I look forward to chatting.

You, ladies and gentlemen, you have witnessed history in the making.

This.

It says history repeats itself.

There's never been a breakthrough until now.

And now you're actually seeing Micah advances that breakthrough.

It's cutting down the time.

It is saving money and more importantly, it's saving lives.

And that's what we're all about.

So please share this with people.

Let them know if you're in the industry, let them know about this massive breakthrough that could save lives.

It is so important.

Join us again for other discussions.

You'll find Dave and I will be up very soon with some other people out in the field where we'll be taking their questions and talking to them.

Contact us@hc3fl.com and also Dymadex.

You can get them online.

We'll have links to everybody below this.

Sam, Florence, David, Robert, thank you for joining me today.

Thank you, guys.

This is Emerging Pathogens brought to you by HC 3.

Keep safe and we'll see you in the next one.

God bless.

Sam.