The human-animal bond describes the relationship between us and our pets, in which we give and gain something from the other. As we evolve into better humans, we understand the importance of the non-human animals around us, and more importantly those that live with us.

On this episode Courtney Wennerstrom, author, blogger, and podcaster, joins us to talk about the importance of pets to their caregivers, the barriers to ownership, and what we have to do as a society to help animals and the people who care for them.

Courtney is the host of the PETestal: on the Human Animal Bond, available on your favorites podcast provider.

Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

This is your host, Dr.

G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan.

Today we are going to be discussing the importance of the human animal

bond, something very, very important for everybody that cares about

animals, and we have an amazing guest.

Our guest is Courtney Wennerstrom.

Welcome Courtney to the Animal Welfare Junction.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm really excited to be here.

You have a podcast of your own called The PETestal and the Human Animal Bond,

and I can't wait to hear about that.

But first, how about you tell our listeners about you, about

your journey from the beginning to what brought you here.

Okay, sure.

So my background is a little bit, , diverse and winding, I guess.

So I'm a former visiting lecturer in English at Indiana University.

, I taught, , composition and literature.

I.

, at all levels of the university from freshman incoming, freshman

composition, to junior and, um, senior level literature classes.

And, um, I have a background in 18th century lit, so I worked in the

period between about 1740 and 1820.

So you can think of Jane Austin as being sort of at the kind of

cusp of the end of that period.

And I absolutely loved it.

I loved teaching, I loved writing, I loved doing my research, but it became

really, really difficult to, um, oh my gosh, my dog is drinking water.

I'm sorry you hear that?

It's alright.

Speaking of the human animal bond, um, anyway, so, um, I, I loved

what I was doing, but it became pretty difficult to make a living

in academia because, um, they no longer really wanna pay professors.

. The idea of a tenure track job is kind of, , We're, we're,

we're completely losing that.

And so instead what universities do is they pay, uh, you by the class

and there's no benefits and there's no , , guarantee that you'll have the,

your job that this semester that's coming.

And so it's kind of just, it's stressful.

And I was forced to leave the profession for that reason.

But I was very, very lucky because I had a secondary

passion, which is animal welfare.

And I was sort of always doing that on the side as like, that was like my my

naughty side project when I was supposed to be working on my dissertation.

I, I, uh, co-founded the first successful animal welfare organization

on the Indiana University campus with some colleagues and friends of mine.

Um, so I'd already sort of set myself up for that path when I

finally decided to leave academia.

And so I transitioned to animal welfare in about 2017.

And, , I worked for a long time in, , ed Michaelson Found Animals, which has

a free national microchip registry.

It's a nonprofit.

Um, I worked for Pets for Life, which as you know, uh, offers free spay,

neuter, and veterinary services, , to communities, underserved communities.

And I, , now am a freelance writer, a blogger, and a podcaster who really

wants to try to make a difference for pets and the people who love them.

Excellent.

, yeah, I'm very familiar with the Pets for Life.

I work with HSUS on different programs, and I think that , the whole idea of their

program is amazing because it's about affordable and accessible care, which is a

lot of what we do to, to individuals to be able to keep animals with their owners.

What is the importance of efforts to keep people and animals together?

It's such a good question, and I think it's such a complicated

and simple question at the same time.

Um, just, I'm sure your listeners who are familiar with your show

already have a sense of this, but just to make sure that anyone

listening for the first time is aware.

Right now, animal welfare is in kind of an unprecedented crisis where , in

2020, uh, obviously, um, adoptions went up, euthanasia in shelters went down,

and it was kind of like we could all take a deep breath for a hot minute.

But now, pet parents are surrendering their dogs and cats and other

animals at an alarming rate.

And they are, and euthanasia and shelters for space is really in a crisis.

So, The problem is, uh, and there's a lot of, you know, everyone

wants to blame different things.

The shelters obviously, they are overcrowded.

They are, they are run, they, they're often, uh, municipal

shelters are often underfunded and understaffed and under-resourced.

And then there's animals pouring in with no way, you know, no

real, no real way to get them out.

, and so animal advocates are watching as dogs and cats and other pets die by the

thousands every day across the country.

So we are really in a crisis.

And the question of how to prevent it is, is I think it's a larger social issue

that is gonna require us to not only.

Rethink a lot of policies and procedures that we have, not only in shelters,

um, but also we've really gotta have a massive cultural shift in understanding

the importance of the human animal bond, recognizing it and supporting

it across every aspect of society.

Uh, and we can kind of talk about what that means, but it's gonna take

all of us to really fix this crisis.

So it's complicated on the one hand, on the other hand, it's really simple.

Spay and neuter your pets, adopt pets and don't buy them and don't

relinquish them to shelters.

You know, on the one hand it's like that, it's that simple.

Um, but I think people don't understand that only about 20% of

people are adopting their, their pets.

And there are shelters in the United States where 80% of

the animals are euthanized.

So you can see right there that if people would adopt, we would

be in a much better place.

Um, I'm gonna stop and pause there to see if you have any questions,

and then we can kind of, I think, get into all the ways in which we might

try to systemically fix it.

Yeah.

Cause one of, one, some of the groups that we work with, for

instance, they will get phone calls of people wanting to surrender animals.

And they, and they are a capacity, but instead of saying, okay, we'll try to

figure out a way for you to surrender the animal, they evaluate more the reasons why

the person needs to surrender the animal.

Cause a large number of individuals that need to part ways with their,

with their pets are for reasons that can be assessed and assisted.

a group that we work with locally, Ross County Humane Society, she got

a call about somebody that needed to get rid of his dog because it was

heartworm positive and they could not afford to take care of the animal.

And when they went in to surrender it, they, they understood the owner

was crying, the owner was upset.

He did not want to part with this dog, but he was doing it because he felt

out it was the best thing for the dog.

So what the rescue did was they found a resource to help pay for

the heartworm for that dog so that the dog could stay in that home.

So it, it solved the problem from so many different perspectives, right?

So it helped this owner maintain their dog.

It was one less dog that the shelter had to deal with, or potentially one less

dog that the shelter had to euthanize.

Because we have to think about the fact that the rescues and the shelters don't,

don't want to euthanize these animals.

They're not happy to do it.

It's something that they have to do, and it's such a huge burden to them.

So by, by helping people keep their animals, it also helps with the

compassion fatigue of the shelter staff.

You make such a smart point because it's a win.

When we can keep pets and people together, it's a win-win, win for everyone.

It society really benefits when people and pets are able to

overcome obstacles like that.

And uh, one of the things that I think people don't understand is

we don't, we don't set up, we don't set pet parents up for success.

You're absolutely right.

Um, people will adopt or buy a dog or a cat and then, and then

what we just say, good luck.

Send them on their way.

Um, so in order to have, I think, A society that recognizes the importance

of the human animal bond and does everything it can to support it.

We need massive systemic change.

So one thing that you're pointing out is that, yes, people surrender their pets for

, minor, but often costly veterinary issues.

Um, one of the things that I saw the most when I worked in at Pets for

Life and in shelters is a real problem with even something like dental care.

Right?

Dental care is, is prohibitively expensive for a lot of people.

So you'd see people with like 12 year old Chihuahuas who they absolutely

adored, um, surrendering them to the shelter tearfully, hoping that

maybe that dog would get some relief.

, and that's just unfair to everyone.

So what animal welfare is trying to do is to switch from an adoption based

model, which is basically the model where, you just tried to adopt dogs out

one after the other as fast as you can.

That doesn't work.

We're trying to switch to a community based model , where the idea is instead

of investing in more buildings and more housing for shelters, which are not

good places for pets or people to be anyway, instead thinking of a shelter

as a community resource center where people can come in and get help with

veterinary care, they can get help with behavioral issues, they can get

help with whatever it is they need help with, um, to help them keep their pets.

It's a really big, it's a really big shift that we've had over the past few years in

animal welfare, and it's an important one.

Um, the other thing is we really need, uh, landlords and especially

insurance companies to kind of rethink their outdated policies about

arbitrary breed and weight and weight restrictions and things like that.

Um, as you know right now, uh, one of the challenges is people are often forced

to relinquish their pets simply because they can't find pet friendly housing,

or it's, it's prohibitively expensive.

So, you know, there's this concept of like, people will say,

oh, I'd never surrender my pet.

I'd live on the street.

You really can't tell that to a single parent who is about to, be homeless,

that they're gonna live on the street.

That's not reasonable.

And the problem is, um, insurance companies have these really arbitrary,

again, breed and weight restrictions.

So, you know, you can have a pet, you can have a dog

under 50 pounds, but at 51 pounds, apparently that dog becomes destructive.

Right?

That's not true.

And more and more research is showing the benefits of pet

friendly housing to the community.

Uh, because pet friendly communities in general are, um,

they have lower crime rates.

so, so the thing is, um, people really can't find housing for their animals.

And that is one of the worst, , situations for the human animal

bond that there is right now.

And, , if we could convince insurance companies, and again, the research

supports it that pet parents are actually.

Like scientifically better renters, they take better care of their homes.

Um, they're just, again, pet friendly communities have all kinds of benefits

and we need to start understanding that because without understanding that we

keep separating people from their pets and the crisis gets worse and everyone loses.

Yeah,

absolutely.

I actually faced something like this personally because I was looking for an

apartment and I had a great Dane and a English bulldog mix, and the apartment

people said, well, the Great Dane is too big, and we're concerned about the

size and the danger to the community, but the English bulldog is okay.

Well, little do they know the Great Dane was a couch potato, that all she

wanted to do was just lay down and then go outside for a couple minutes to use

the bathroom and then come back in.

Whereas the English bulldog ate walls, right?

So the dog that they were willing to accept as in the house would've

destroyed the whole apartment as opposed to the Great Dane that

would literally just do nothing.

So there is a, there is a disconnect into the, the ability of people that

have no real knowledge of what a specific dog, dog breed size represents.

Um, they're just basing it on biases that are not necessarily

correct, and I know that.

People that have children, like the children are sometimes more destructive

to an apartment or to a household, right?

Right.

As opposed to the animal that live in it.

Right.

So you're absolutely right.

Um, and these restrictions mean nothing.

And they're based on these terrible biases about breeds.

Right.

A lot of, a lot of them are just, a lot of apartment complexes are like

no huskies, no German shepherds, no pit bulls, and those can be some

of the best dogs that ever existed.

And there's absolutely no science to support that breed specific

legislation in general ever has done anything to protect communities.

Um, so for anyone listening who doesn't know breed specific legislation, In

general refers to when certain breeds are banned from even being allowed to exist.

For instance, I live in Denver and for a very, very, very long time,

we had an outright pit bull ban.

No one was allowed to own or have a pit bull, and if a pit bull

ended up in a shelter, they were basically immediately euthanized.

They have amended this to be slightly better, although

it's still a bit problematic.

But, um, there's so much literature and so much, so many, uh, studies done

that showed that that did not prevent any bites from happening in, in Denver.

It didn't really protect the community at all, and all it did was destroy

families and kill perfectly lovely dogs.

Um, so insurance companies really need to catch up with this.

They really need to understand.

That by allowing people to have their dogs and their precious babies, they're

probably gonna have, um, better tenants and better results than if they don't.

And so we have it all backwards basically.

Yeah.

We gotta turn it around.

Another,

another thing that I think, you know, we're, we're talking about the

issues , that are presented by the housing and the communities, but then

we need to look at the issues that are.

Created by people that don't do proper research.

Right.

Because I think that getting a pet is kind of like dating.

So you have certain needs, some, right?

You have a personality, you have things that you like to do, but people

get stuck on a look and it's like, oh, that that guy is really hot.

And then we think of, oh, that dog is beautiful.

That's the dog that I want.

So like you said, Huskies, so many people are like, oh my

God, Huskies are so beautiful.

And then they get this dog and it doesn't match their personality.

They don't match what they want to do.

You have somebody that wants to get a dog to go hiking, but then they

get a dog that's a couch potato.

Or you get somebody that just wants to sit and watch TV all day and they go

out and get, you know, like a, A Terri or a healer or something like that.

So we have to.

Be better selective and not just select with our eyes, but we

have to, to look further into it.

So what would you have to say about, about that, about setting,

setting yourself up for success and setting your animal up for success?

So we don't have unrealistic expectations about the animals that we bring into

our lives.

Ooh, it's so good.

I love your analogy about dating, dating the hot person and not really, you know,

understanding who they are on the inside.

This is happening.

You bring such up, such a good point because this is, this is

literally happening, , all over the country and in particular.

So again, I work with rescues most, most specifically in, in

California and um, with shelters.

And they are overflowing with, in particular with pit bulls.

, Huskies and German Shepherds and they are, , those three breeds are being euthanized

in mass by the thousands every single day.

Their curse is that they're beautiful, um, and they're also

working dogs and they are, especially shepherds and huskies, right?

And other cattle dogs.

They are working dogs and they need a purpose and they need a job.

And they are highly energetic.

They should, they talk all day.

I know, cuz I'm a husky mom.

My two huskies are rescued.

Uh, uh, or I should say they rescued me.

But, um, I've had huskies my whole life and I love them so much and I get them

on a fundamental level and I understand what they need, but they are so beautiful

and people just get them and then are miffed by their, their energy level.

They're miffed by the fact that they should, all the things that huskies just

by, just, they are, they don't like, The husky they buy and then mm-hmm.

They don't do the, they don't do any research and they don't train or work

with their animal at all, and then they just dump them at a shelter.

And it is a real, it's a, it's a real tragedy for everyone involved because

that family, if they had done a little bit more work, could have found a dog that

fit their lifestyle a little bit better.

, so yes, I think people really need to think about what kind of a dog do I want?

Let me do some research and I don't, and maybe stop thinking that you

want a specific breed of dog, right?

Because again, that's focused on the external.

And really start thinking about what kind of characteristics or

qualities you want your dog to have.

There's a really great resource called How I Met My Dog, and um, I don't

know if you've ever heard of it.

But you can go and take like, it was a 60, I think it's like a

64 point questionnaire, psycholo psychology questionnaire.

It was designed by psychologists to find out exactly what kind of dog you want.

Um, we, and I hope they do something like that for cats too.

Um, but the idea is talk to your friends who have a breed that you think you want.

First of all, maybe don't think so much.

Don't be so breed fixated, but talk to friends who have dogs and see what, what

it takes to keep them happy and healthy.

Um, because I'm gonna tell you right now, if you do not want to walk

six miles a day or take your husky to a dog park, um, to run for a

good hour, you don't want a husky.

Like, you just don't, right?

Um, they're gonna need a lot, you know, you've gotta be willing

to work with them and they need, even that isn't always enough.

My dogs need a lot of enrichment.

They need a lot of things and, um, I find it very pleasurable to give that to them.

But I understand that they're a lot, for some people that the problem is they're

being punished for the total inability for people to have any foresight.

Um, don't get a dog on a whim.

Don't get a dog as a present for someone.

You know, this is, think about I'm getting a family member and I

better make sure this is a good fit.

Kind of like you said with a marriage.

You know, you're not just gonna go and grab the first attractive person

you see and hope for the best.

That's just not how this works.

Yeah, because what we see is that people are punishing animals for

doing what is natural to them, right?

So the dog is too hyper.

So then we're gonna go out and electrocute 'em daily because

we need them to not be hyper.

Well, what are we doing?

We are eliminating trust.

We're eliminating respect.

We're eliminating humane treatment because we're punishing

them for doing what's natural.

It would be like if we have a, a need to have a conversation with somebody

because we've had a long day and then somebody zaps us about it or beats us,

because it's not your time to talk, right?

They're just trying to communicate.

They're just trying to do what, what they normally do.

So these unrealistic expectations, I think lead animals for failure.

And a lot of people don't realize these problems until it's too late, right?

Because at three months old, the puppy chewing on things, it's funny,

but they don't understand that not dealing with that behavior back then.

Then at six months, nine months, a year, it becomes a problem.

And now it's a learned problem.

And now what are we gonna do about it?

And then you try to find a home for a dog that, what are you gonna do?

Advertise, uh, looking for a home for my dog, that chews blinds.

Like, you know, who's going to, who's gonna help with that?

right.

And, uh, you're right that we punish them for, for just

very, very natural behaviors.

, and people think of training.

I think the pro, I think one way to reframe this for everyone is like, . So

training sounds like work, right?

Training sounds really hard.

Training sounds overwhelming and annoying Really.

Training at its best is just learning what your dog loves and needs.

Learning and learning how to communicate with them and teaching

them what your expectations are.

It's actually just fun bonding time with your dog.

It shouldn't be overwhelming and it shouldn't be.

Something you see as work.

It's really just something that is supposed to be really, really

fun and enjoyable for both of you.

So when you get, when you get a pet, you know, and cats too, they need a lot.

Mm-hmm.

They need a lot.

And, uh, people have assumptions about cats that they'll take care of themselves

when in reality, especially indoor cats, they need enrichment so they can

express species specific behaviors like chasing and pouncing and, um, you know,

they need mental stimulation as well.

So a lot of times people think my, my cat or will say like, my cat or

my dog is destructive, my cat or my dog is X, Y, Z, when really the

truth is they're just not getting something that they desperately need.

Right.

They're not bad, no animals are inherently bad.

You know, they're, they're just not, they, they don't, they're not malicious

people often, especially with cats, have this notion that their cat is conniving

or, or something, or trying to, you know, or is acting out and it's just not true.

Like, animals are awesome and they're so sweet and they're so

pure and all they wanna do is love you and then do the things they

need to do to be happy and healthy.

I have two cats, right?

And they're , the first cats that I have owned that have not been declawed,

uh, now the last cat that I had that was Declawed was more than 10 years ago

because there was this notion of, you get a cat, you get a declawed because if

not, they're gonna tear up your house.

So I didn't know any better.

So I've evolved in my knowledge and understanding of cats and behavior.

So these guys are not declawed and I can say that they do not destroy my house.

And I'm not great at keeping their nails trimmed, but as you can see in the back,

like I, right, I have cat trees and I have different surfaces for them to scratch

and different places for them to do the things that they need to do so that they

don't find a need to do it on my couch, on my carpet, uh, on that kind of stuff.

, one of the reasons I, I slowly stopped doing declaw for the animals that we

were seeing at our practice, , because there was this whole idea of, well,

if we don't declaw these cats, then people are not gonna come in and get

them spayed or neutered because, you know, they want to get them declawed.

And I learned that it was about education, right?

So we started educating owners about the importance of the claws

to them in their normal behavioral expression, and then the pain and

discomfort that they suffer through life and how that pain and discomfort

then lead to negative behaviors.

So cats that urinate outside of the box, they're not doing

it because they're angry.

They're doing it because they're in pain.

They're, they have anxiety, they have problems.

So that is their way of, of dealing with it.

Cats rarely go outside of the litter box just because they're pissed at you.

They go outside of the litter box because there is an issue or, or

something like that.

Yes.

Yes.

Oh, thank God.

You know, it's great that I'm so, I'm so, so glad you brought this up.

A lot of quote unquote behavioral issues are medical people don't realize, , that

especially with cats urinating outside of the box, they can have Pandora syndrome.

Right?

So even if they don't have a u t i, they might have a Pandora

syndrome, which of course is like a psychosomatic set of symptoms that

come from being understimulated.

So like being a bored, indoor house cat can actually make you sick.

Mm-hmm.

Um, people don't understand that.

And so, yes, there's, there are these correlations that people don't always

make between health and behavior.

So that's another thing, right?

Um, and again, it's just really an animal either who is sick or not, not

getting the, the very important they're, they're absolutely fundamental needs met.

Just like we would act out if we weren't getting ours.

Right.

Right.

And, and sometimes we don't meet those needs literally out of

just, we don't wanna be bothered.

Right.

So with Cats, for instance, we always tell people have one box more than

the number of cats that you have.

So I have two cats, I have four boxes.

I have three boxes with crystal litter, and I have one box with clay litter

because I figured that that was the combination of things that they wanted.

I have box within my main floor.

I have a box in my bedroom because I want to eliminate them from finding a

need to go to the bathroom on my bed.

So I put a box somewhere in my bedroom that's not, that's not a

nuisance, that's not a problem, but it's still accessible to them.

So we hear about people that say, oh yeah, well I have three boxes

and they're all in the basement.

Well think about if you're, if you have, uh, two floors in your house

and a basement and all of a sudden you really, really have to go to the

bathroom and you're all the way upstairs, are you gonna make it to the basement?

So sometimes these animals are , having accidents or doing things just

because we are not helping them with making things accessible for them.

Like we're setting, we're not setting them up for success.

That's absolutely true.

And it's heartbreaking cuz they don't really need that mu, I mean, when you

think about it, they don't ask for that much compared to what they give back.

You know, like, that's not that hard.

You know, put a litter box in your bedroom is not that hard.

Um, versus taking your cat to a, to a shelter where they

are likely to be euthanized.

So another thing that I wanted to, to talk about is, you know,

the importance of the human animal bond in the veterinary environment.

So, When in the facility that, that I worked at and the clinics

that we do right now, everybody is really happy with what we do, right?

Because they're, they're able to afford the care for their pet.

We are accessible.

So they're really happy with us, they're happy with our staff, and

then our staff feeds off on that happiness from the, from the client.

So how can the human animal bond assist with combating compassion

fatigue of veterinary staff

members?

Ooh, I think it's such a good question.

First, just any veterinarian listening.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for your work.

Um, I know, uh, I know that veterinarians have a high rate of suicide.

, it's a very, very tough job.

Uh, and I think because veterinary care is often prohibitively or just

very expensive, people assume that veterinarians are just out there making.

Tons of money in driving Porsches and luxury vehicles.

And in reality, it costs a lot of money to run a vet clinic.

It's very expensive.

Um, and veterinarians are gonna, are about to be, as you know, better

than anyone in very short supply.

Um, they're, they're dropping outta the profession.

They're not entering their profession.

And so for anybody listening first, please be kind to your veterinarians.

They're doing a really hard job and we need them, like we desperately need them

personally, I could, I wish I could be a veterinarian, but I can't deal with that,

all the things that come along with it.

So I really admire veterinarians.

Um, the second thing that comes to mind is, you know, it's great when

you have, when I think you have a human who, who's attached to an animal

who can tell their story for them.

I think it must be very hard for shelter veterinarians who are

assessing an animal who's just come in and they have absolutely no idea.

What's going on with them, um, emotionally, psychologically,

physically, like they don't know and they have to assess from scratch.

So, you know, I think obviously it's great when, when you have somebody

who can help tell their story, right?

That's really important.

when a pet owner is bringing an animal to, to the vet, especially when

the, when the pet is sick, and then even if they're coming in just to get

general wellness care, that person.

Has anxiety, right?

It, it doesn't matter how much they like or don't like their

vet, they're gonna have anxiety for a couple different reasons.

They're gonna have anxiety because they're about to spend a lot of money.

They have no idea how much, but they figure there's gonna

be a lot of money involved.

And then there's anxiety because they know that they're taking their

pet, that they care and love to somewhere that they're afraid of.

Because even if everybody's really nice, there's gonna be an injection,

there's gonna be a shot or something.

It's kind of like taking your kid to the pediatrician, you know, your kid knows

that it's going to the pediatrician and it's stressing out because there

may be a vaccine coming up and the pet owner has those, those same concerns.

So when, when a person brings their their pet to a veterinary facility, they care

about the medical care that the patient receives, but more so they're stuck on.

The care that they are receiving, both as a whole, from an

emotional and empathy standpoint.

We may have just done a surgery that saved that animal's life, but the review

is stuck on the care that they received.

Right?

Did they care about me?

Did they care about my pet?

And we as staff, like veterinary staff get upset or get pissed because we just spent

all this time and energy and we saved your pet, and you don't care about that.

You just care that somebody was not nice to you.

We as veterinarians and, and technicians and assistants, and receptionists,

we need to understand that not caring about people is not a thing, right?

So the animals don't bring themselves.

We have to care about the animal, and we have to care about the person

that is attached to that animal.

, the human animal bond at that point is important in helping the patient,

but then also taking care of the human animal bond can help the veterinary

team with compassion fatigue.

Because again, if we are getting stressed out by negative responses, by complaints,

, by the owner, if we are showing compassion to those animals, the owner is happy,

that reflects on our staff, and then that decreases compassion fatigue.

Sure that makes sense.

I mean, it's a whole cycle where, where pet parents need to

be kinder to veterinarians and veterinarians need to be empathetic.

I know it must be a really difficult balance.

I mean, they talk about, you know, there's this idea that in order to do

these sorts of jobs where you have to deal with animals in, in potentially

excruciating pain or end of life decisions or all of the things that you

have to deal, deal, do, and deal with.

To some extent, you need to have, you know, a clinical detachment

so you can do your job right.

You can't feel the way the pet parent feels or you not able to get anywhere.

You have to maintain a level of professionalism.

At the same time.

Empathy is so important.

Um, cuz these are our babies, right?

And I recently lost my cat leche.

He was my heart and soul cat.

I loved him.

He was my first cat and he was diagnosed with bone cancer.

And my vet, Dr.

Ryan was so kind of when I found out, um, I thought I was just taking him in for,

I didn't, I, he had some, some things going on in his mouth and I just thought

he was gonna need a dental instead.

I got a terminal diagnosis and my husband wasn't there.

And, um, my vet, Dr.

Ryan gave me the biggest hug.

And, you know, that really meant everything to me because I was

just trying to process that I was about to lose my baby.

I know it really made, I, I kind of choke up talking about it, but

it really made a difference in.

How I was able to kind of compose myself to drive home.

You know, like I, I had to drive home with Leche and I

had, I, I was by myself and Dr.

Ryan was, is a real person with a heart and a soul.

Um, and he really made a difference in my life at that moment, um, in one of the

hardest things that I've ever had to do.

He showed up for me professionally and personally, and I love him for it.

Like, he will always have a very special place in my heart because he

knew, he knew how awful this was, and he didn't forsake me in that moment.

Right.

And I feel that, you know, that is, that is really important in recognizing,

you know, that pets are family, right?

It's, it's like a child.

So understanding the importance of the, of the bond between the pet.

, and the pet owner or caretaker, and then taking that into consideration in

how we approach and the recommendations that we make, because we need to make

recommendations , that are going to be well received and that are going to

be feasible or possible to the owner.

Uh, we don't wanna set anybody up for failure from a medical side, right?

Because with, with different problems, like for instance, with pets with cancer,

you may have somebody that wants to pursue additional treatment, additional

surgery, chemotherapy, all sorts of stuff.

And then that is okay.

But you may have somebody that doesn't wanna put their, their

pet through that and doesn't wanna put their pet through suffering.

And you have to understand and respect that as well.

So understanding where people are coming from and then making

the recommendations that are, are acceptable to them within their means.

. Courtney: Yeah.

That must be hard, you know, um, watching people who are trying to make end of life

decisions and how excruciating that is.

I mean, it's absolutely one of the worst things that humans go through.

Um, or even just, you know, again, making these really horrible, tough calls about,

will I spend $10,000 on my pet or not?

You know, and if I don't have it, will I borrow it?

How will I get it?

It's a, yeah, I mean, it's one thing when you're coming in for routine care,

it's another when their pet is in crisis.

So I know the more empathy a vet can have the better because

Yeah, we're a package right?

We're a package deal.

Um, And people really wanna feel seen and heard and understood about their animals.

And veterinarians are probably gonna need to be a little bit, you know,

counselors and therapists too, right?

Um, it's a lot to ask of a person, but I, you are right, that that's

what we need as pet parents.

We do need somebody to tell us it's okay and to tell us, you know, that we're

doing the right thing if we are unsure and all, all of those things, um, that will

really benefit everybody in the situation.

what one person can do or is willing to do or wants to do is very

different, is very personal, right?

So we have to, to understand everything before we can

make, , a proper recommendation or an educated recommendation.

And then we have to be, , comforting to the individual so that they

feel good about their decision, even if it's euthanizing a pet.

Because it is a very difficult decision, and I always tell, I've, I've always

tell my clients that we don't do it for us, we do it for them, right?

Because we don't wanna put them down, we don't wanna part ways with them.

So we are doing it not because we're selfish, is somewhat the most selfless

thing that we can do at times.

So it's understanding the importance of that bond and then again, that,

that comes back to the staff and , feeling good about the services that

we are providing and hopefully trusting that people know their pets and,

and are doing what's the best for them.

I know sometimes people are caught up in their own pain and they don't

wanna make decisions that they need to make, but a lot of, you know, like

for instance, I've, I've had to make end of life decisions for, for four

animals, four animals now that I've lost who have all died in my arms.

And I was lucky that, that I was able to be there for them.

But, you know, I would, I made different decisions for each of them based on their

personalities and, and their, you know, like what I thought they would want.

They're all very different.

And so for, for some pets my dog, Maddie got bone cancer.

Also, I've lost two animals to bone cancer.

And I thought, you know what?

She, there was an option to amputate her front leg and then do chemo and it

would've bought her only nine months.

And I thought, you know, Maddie hates vets and she doesn't like being messed with.

And so no, for her, I don't see that that would be a very good option.

My dog, Kodiak probably would have wanted to fight.

Um, so I think trusting that people do know and love and understand their pets

is probably helpful, although I'm sure you see cases where that's, you know, where

you're concerned that that's not true.

So I, I, I can't imagine how hard it is to do what you do.

. DrG: You know, it's about not being

different factors that go into it.

For example, somebody may bring in a pet that is diabetic.

And it is something that can be managed with injections, but the owner may not

be able or willing to give injections.

So at that point, what is the worst thing that can happen?

Right?

They can, they can suffer the consequences of being diabetic.

So we have to work within those means.

Does it make them horrible people because they cannot provide the medical care?

No, not necessarily.

Again, we cannot be judgmental.

They may have their reasons, reasons for why they cannot provide that care,

and therefore humane euthanasia maybe what's best for that, for that cat.

Whereas somebody else may say, yeah, we have the time, we have the

energy, we have the money, we have everything to provide a, a good care.

So we have to provide treatment that is not judgmental.

And by, by not being judgmental, we can also get a more sincere,

more sincere information from the owners about what they can do.

We don't wanna guilt somebody into agreeing to do a treatment or at-home care

that they know they cannot do, but they feel that if they tell you they cannot

do it, you're going to look down on them.

So then they take the pet home to suffer.

We have to understand that, we are here to present all the, all

the possible options, but then it's ultimately up to the owner to let

us know what they can and cannot do.

Absolutely.

And I know those are really hard decisions for people.

Switching back, , , to the human animal bond, the first episode that

we, that we did on the animal welfare junction was on the importance of

affordable and accessible animal care.

And the question that we asked all our guests.

Is, what are your thoughts on the, if you cannot afford an animal, don't have it.

So I wanna ask that from you.

What are your thought if you cannot afford the vet, don't get the pet.

I'm, I've never heard it phrased that way.

I like, that's funny, but obviously it's not a funny topic.

Well, I'm really passionate about this because that assumption that

if you can't afford an animal you shouldn't get one, is really elitist.

And also, um, people don't understand that it helps nobody because, um,

there are animals who are dying in shelters who need families, and

there are families who need animals.

And, um, animals are not luxury items, right?

It's not like you can tighten your belt and go without a pet.

So for people who want and need pets, it's extremely important that we support

them, , and make veterinary care and other things accessible, , because

again, they're not luxury items.

And pets need families.

So the way that we would win socially and the way that we could make things

better is by, again, these sort of massive systemic changes where we understand that

animals are vital members of the family.

And when families are in crisis for whatever reason, we need to realize

that the pets need to be considered.

So if someone is fleeing domestic violence, we need their pets need

to be able to come with them.

If they're in financial hardship and they're in crisis, they need to be

able to, whatever social services they're getting, need to include pets.

Um, if they're, you know, disaster preparedness.

If they're fleeing disaster, then we need to have plans for pets.

And that's, you know, something that we really started to look at with Katrina.

And again, housing needs to be pet friendly.

, we really need to start understanding that society is better off when we support

the human animal bond at every level.

And money should not be the object that it is for pet, for pet parents, right?

It's just, it's, it's not, it's not, it's not serving us.

Um, there's tons and tons and tons of research that shows just

how important pets are for our emotional and physical wellbeing.

And even, even human health insurance companies should start

to understand that they need to support people in having pets.

You know, they need to be seen as dependents, the dependence.

They are socially, they need to be included literally

across every aspect of society.

And I promise everybody it will be a win-win.

I saw, uh, research recently that evaluated the costs of healthcare

for humans compared of people owning pets and people not owning pets.

And there was a significant decrease in the amount of certain problems

that are seen in the, in the cost of treating those problems.

, based on pet ownership, , people had less cost associated with heart

issues, less cost associated with weight problems, uh, less cost

associated with psychology issues such as anxiety, depression, P T S D.

So for, again, for people that may not care about the animals, the effect

that these animals have on their owners actually are a benefit to society

in general because it's helping the community stay safer and healthier.

Absolutely.

So the fact that we aren't subsidizing or supporting financially, uh, Pet ownership

is a real problem, and it makes no sense.

And if we, and there is money for this or again, there are ways

that we could support this, we just have to be innovative in

the way that we think about it.

Pets are family members.

They are not optional.

Um, and, and, and I'm very passionate about this because I was in grad

school when I was teaching at Indiana University, I was doing a PhD.

I lived just above the poverty line and my dog, Kodiak tore his a c l and that

was a very, very expensive surgery.

I had health, I had pet insurance, but it only covered about half the cost.

And I had to borrow and basically get money from everyone I knew in my family.

And, um, to think that I might have had to relinquish him.

He was my life.

Kodiak was my absolute heart dog.

And I would've died without him.

My mental health, uh, my physical health would've been.

Catastrophically affected if I had had to give him up.

And I was lucky that I had resources, but you cannot ask people to

not have pets because they're going through financial hardship.

, and the pets are gonna lose.

It's a lose lose situation, right?

Nobody wins when pets and people are separated.

Um, nobody wins.

So we need to figure out ways to make, to make it possible for almost any

family who wants a pet to have a pet.

Yeah.

Something needs to be done because, you know, we have , two issues at hand.

We have the fact that going through veterinary school is very expensive.

Going through technician school and being accredited is very expensive.

So we have.

Uh, a career that comes with a lot of expense.

And then the expenses of running a veterinary practice and the

equipment that is involved and the medications and everything.

Running a veterinary practice is expensive.

So for a veterinarian to stay open and be able to pay their, their

staff appropriately, cost, costs have to be at a certain range.

So that makes it hard for people to be able to afford the care for their pets.

So, but then there are people that cannot afford that, those costs.

So that's where we get into, uh, a lack of balance between what

is and what there needs to be.

We have to find a way to help veterinarians stay open,

be able to, to afford the.

The equipment to afford the facility, to afford the practice,

be able to practice good medicine.

And then we have to be able to balance that with finding a way of helping

people with taking care of, of their animals and, and affording these

costs.

Right?

And I think, again, one of the ways we can do this is we need the support of big c

big corporations and insurance companies.

And, um, we, we need to, uh, apparently if I have this right, only two or 3% of

the philanthropic dollar goes to animals.

Animals are sort of, uh, is, they're so important to us, but we

put them last in, in so many ways.

They are not prioritized.

Um, that is an opportunity for us to learn and, and, and grow as a

society and really say, you know what?

We need to, we need to find some really creative solutions here.

Pets are dying in shelters.

People have massive mental health issues like, you know, um, these things.

these things are, can be remedied with, um, also a social and

cultural shift in ideology.

And again, the, the notion that if you can't afford an animal you shouldn't

have one, is not helping animals.

So if you care about animals, that's a very judgey and elitist idea.

Um, I would honestly rather see a dog with this person.

Who is homeless, but they have not been separated, uh, than an animal and

shelter who's about to be euthanized Like that is how severe this crisis is.

I want people to understand peop that animals are dying in mass in our country

every day, and I'm watching it and my own compassion fatigue is through the roof.

And I'm not even the ones on the ground in the trenches like

the, you know, the people in the rescue organizations themselves.

So, so the problem is dire.

And the solutions are possible.

We just really need to come together.

And here's the great thing about the human animal bond, something that I

think is a tremendous, is that it's not politicized and it's something we can all

agree on in our very divisive society.

I feel like if we prioritize and put the human animal bond at the center of

major social issues, we might actually be able to get somewhere because

it's something we can all agree on.

Our love for animals, those of us who love them, obviously people who

don't want animals are, you know, they're, they're not in this category.

But, um, it, it's something that we can all agree on.

Our love for our pets, right?

That should be able to unite us and it should be able to get us to be able

to solve some massive social problems.

We put that human animal bond at the center and really focus on that.

, DrG: we think about the fact

they're in shelters, right?

So one of the, one of the issues that I have with people, for instance, people

that wanna have one litter or wanna, you know, when to have their pets

have a litter, or that they're against spaying a, a feral cat that is pregnant.

So the, their point is, well, I will find good homes for these animals because they

think of the animals that are in shelters as they're already being taken care of.

So these animals are not taken care of, so we need to find them homes.

And they don't understand that being in a shelter is not

necessarily a true safe place.

And not because, and I'm not trying to dump on shelters because shelters

are doing the best that they can to take care of these animals.

But the reality of it is that animals in shelters at are a

higher risk of getting sick.

Uh, cats have higher rates of respiratory infections.

Dogs have a higher rate of, uh, intestinal parasites and things that come from

having to go to the bathroom in places that other, an animals are going.

They're not going out as often as they would want to.

They are not having the affection and connection with people that

leads to good mental health.

So people need to understand that every animal that they find a home

for is taking a home away from an animal that is at a shelter.

So having, letting your pets have litters is just irresponsible at so many levels.

It really is.

And this notion that they need it for their health or something, or they need

that experience as also just fraught.

Uh, it's not true, but you're absolutely right.

The problem is, you know, breeders, like for instance, again in

California, huskies are way overbred.

And I wish the breeders who raised those puppies would understand that those

puppies are going to be, often they are euthanized and it, it is not a slam.

It doesn't have to be a slam on shelter workers.

It's just the truth.

They're in a really difficult position where they ha well, they

may have three or four dogs to a kennel and they're fighting.

They, there's nowhere for the animals to go.

People won't foster, people won't step up.

Rescues are drowning.

They don't have enough financial support.

They don't have enough, again, fosters.

So having a litter right now, uh, is absolutely, um, completely unnecessary.

And even if you're in an area of the country where there are fewer animals,

That's an opportunity for us to transport animals out of, you know, areas where

they're over overrun and bring them here.

Your pets don't need to have babies.

I promise you.

They will have meaningful lives without it.

Um, and everybody, you're right that everybody thinks,

yeah, I'll find a good home.

But will you find a home where they can, will they will, where the people

will actually step up or will those animals be relinquished in a year?

Because so many animals at are surrendered at about age one or two.

Mm-hmm.

So you may think, yeah, I found a good home, but for how long?

You know?

And, and.

I just, people like to talk about, you know, there are such thing as responsible

breeders who only have two litters a year.

But right now we don't need more.

We do not need more of any kind of animal.

Like we don't because they're dying.

And it's so people don't realize because they don't look, they just don't.

And, and these, these dogs and cats to them are kind of abstract.

Like, oh, animals are dying.

It's sad.

It's not sad.

It's an, it's an effing crisis.

It's a tragedy.

It's a nightmare.

Um, and these are perfectly beautiful, healthy, loving dogs.

, they're losing their lives because humans are selfish and apathetic and don't do

their research and all of those things.

And we can do better.

Like, why are we doing this?

It's not necessary.

We can do better.

. , DrG: it is really important because again,

stories about humane societies that are having to put animals down for space, and

especially when they're having to put down young animals, puppies, kittens, and such.

And again, they get bashed by society because why are you killing these animals?

And society doesn't understand that they are the problem.

They are having to euthanize these animals because we're not stepping up, we're

not doing anything to solve the problem.

All we're doing is kind of getting behind a keyboard and saying, you don't care.

They are the ones that care.

They're, they are the ones that showed up.

They're the ones that came into work and that are having to, to

deal with all those problems.

So we have to be more, more understanding of what shelters and humane groups

and humane societies and shelter veterinarians and technicians are going

through because of the irresponsibility of, of people in the society.

Yeah.

And people, um, won't even step up again to foster.

So animals just need a temporary place to go and then we would be able to transport

them to a, to a location where they'd have better chance of being adopted

and people won't even foster, you know?

So, until people want to make this a priority, a social priority, until

we wanna fund shelters and rescues, um, meaningfully instead of literally

what happens is people on, on Facebook or other social media will pledge

money to a rescue if they take a dog.

Right.

And we usually only have like two or three days to raise enough money.

And rescuing an animal costs a lot of money.

They need to be vetted.

A lot of them need.

They, they have perfectly treatable illnesses or injuries,

but they need vet care.

Um, all of this is expensive and we only have like, you know, two days

or three to quit or sometimes even a day to raise money for an animal.

We need to find them a foster.

Nobody steps up.

So they end up being euthanized for space when it really would be a solvable

problem if we would just stop making too many animals, step up for the animals

who are here, un shelters and rescues and, and, and instead of, you know,

it being like a charity thing where, oh my gosh, individuals, I pledged $3.

I pledged 10.

Trying, trying, trying to save.

This is, it's a rescue right now is like emptying an ocean with a spoon.

Every time you save one dog or cat for every dog or cat you save,

there are 10 who are euthanized.

Tell us about your, your podcast, what it's about, and how people

can, can get information about it.

Yeah, sure.

So I am the host of a podcast called the Capital p e t,

pedestal on the Human Animal Bond.

It's on Apple and anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Um, I haven't produced an episode in about a year because, uh, I had some

work changes, long story, but I'm hoping to get it back up and running.

, also, , about to launch a podcast on pet loss with a colleague of mine through the

Association of Pet Loss and Bereavement.

, because I know Pet Lo pet loss is such a difficult, time in people's

lives when they lose their animals.

And I really just sort of wanna help them through the process.

So tho that's up and coming.

Um, not it's, it's more, it's a, it's in its very, very baby infancy right now.

Perfect.

Well, thank you Courtney for, for being part of this episode.

Thank you for the information that you have.

And thank you for the work that you're doing with the human

animal bond and education.

And we'll definitely wanna have you back when you have your podcast

on pet loss so that we can talk about that very important topic.

And I'd love to have you as a guest as well.

So thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate all that you do.

Thank you.

And for all our listeners, thank you for spending this time for